BTW, markos used to threaten divorce during his AOs. He quickly changed his mind when he wasn't allowed home anymore and lost that control over me.

When I was no longer willing to put up with his abuse and threats, I realized that a life without him would be better than being abused. His threats no longer meant anything. When we separated, it was very, very freeing.

I saved a post that SexyMamaBear made because it described what separation can do for you so well:

Mrs. S AOs are abuse and please do not tolerate them.

What to Do with an Angry Husband

If you hear "you're too sensitive," "you're this," "you're that," it's the same as hearing "I don't care about you." It isn't a complaint about something to change, so don't work on trying to be less sensitive to being hurt. That's not the MB plan.

I notice that your husband hasn't posted. Do you have a plan in place for this outcome?

Hi, you'll be surprised at what my wife classifies as anger, but anyhow, I do not want to end the marriage, she is the one who asked me to move out via email on my birthday (albeit temporarely). We have 5 beautiful children, my wife is a terrific person, with the highest degree of ethics, independant, professional and a good mother. Why would I want to walk away from her; she complained about my outbursts, so I changed, and I now approach everything with low anxiety, low energy, peacefully, my answer in the email was concerning, not disrespectful (or at least thats what I ment), if she emailed me about an innocent remark, trust me, she was bothered....and when things bother her for a while she gets with anxiety...last time she had to go on medication; I do not want that at all, so if I detect anxiety, I get really concerned. Now that I no longer get angry (or at least I like to think I don't), then she is finding more and more behaviours in me that bother her and trigger responses. So I am learning, and learning, and learning....I am being very careful on my opinions; (she does not like it when my opinions are strong)I am choosing my words carefully, I am not going to state anything I deem it may sound obvious (thats a huge withdrawal)...even if it costs us time and or money; and won't disagree with her, that triggers "conversations" (aka, an argument which she shall win.) I trust her judgement, so unless its a life or death issue, we can move ahead under her leadership, and live our lives in peace, enjoy our kids, the beautiful home we have; I don't have a problem with that. We are really very blessed with what we have, I am not going to be sweating the small stuff, have so many thigs to be grateful, and look forward to, so as far as I am concerned, I will modify whatever behaviours I need to modify as we go along, (some may be a little tough as they invove my personality)I pray that I don't slip up, as one slip up usually sets me back a few years, and then she remembers all the horrible things I've done...so it will be a challenge but I'll have to do what I have to do to keep providing our kids a stable home; believe me, I am not being a victim or sacrificing here....in the end I think it will be worth it; she is a good woman; we have a good home (we don't really argue a whole lot, or disagree at all)...thank you all for your opinions, this is important to her, so I'll login and say my piece as often as I can. Ahh, one more thing, I really believe that we can choose to make almost anything anyone says, disrespectful, or offensive (I apologize to the political correct)so it is sometimes, I am not saying always, but sometimes, our choice to take offense.

Hi MrS, thanks so much logging in and giving your perspective. Most people don't choose to be offended. It is a reaction to behavior. It is much easier for you to change your behavior than it is for her to change her reaction. Every time she is offended, it causes her feelings for you to erode. So it is in your best interest to take that very seriously and stop doing the thing that upsets her. It might not be pleasant to be told you are doing something offensive, but the alternative is even worse because before long she won't want to be married to you. And I am sure you don't want that.

Getting a complaint is like getting an overdraft notice from the bank. It is a notice that your bank account is draining and you are stacking up bounced check fees. Not getting that notice is even worse, because you can't fix a problem you are not aware of.

For example, this kind of response:
..... makes the problem worse, because it was disrespectful and rude. It doesn't matter if you "meant" good. What matters is how it affected her. It offended her. The solution to such complaints is not sarcasm [which makes it worse] but an apology and a commitment to stop doing it.

My suggestion would be start with the book Lovebusters and work to eliminate them. I know it seems at first like there are a lot of complaints, but keep in mind that they are a good thing, not a bad thing. They give you an opportunity for improvement.

Hi, Mr S. Welcome to Marriage Builders.

What I am hearing from your message is that you have not yet learned to communicate with your wife in a way that she doesn't find demanding, disrespectful, and/or angry. These three offenses really are in the way of the beholder.

My wife and I went through Dr. Harley's weekend seminar and followup program, with the assistance of a marriage coach from his office. Many times during this process my wife would identify something I said or did as angry or disrespectful. Most of the time, like you, I felt that the problem was that she was choosing to take offense, when no offense was meant.

Dr. Harley and his staff helped me to learn how to talk to my wife in a way that she doesn't find demanding or angry. Now we don't have this problem any more. I'm not hurting her, because I learned what her requirements are for safe communication.

The result is a happy marriage! My wife is not upset all the time and we get along very well, have a wonderful time together and would rather be with each other than anywhere else in the world.

It is much easier for a person to change behavior than it is for a person to change their emotional reactions to behavior. In fact it is nearly impossible for a person to change those emotional reactions. So expecting your wife to just not take offense is very unrealistic - being a normal human being, she just can't do that. But you can learn to accommodate her! And you pretty much have to if you want to have a happy, successful marriage.

Dr. Harley would advise you to take these complaints from your wife seriously - do not meet them with explanations of how you didn't mean anything offensive, disrespectful, or angry, because those explanations will not help your wife at all. Instead, follow the procedure in Love Busters to request weekly written feedback from her about things you have said that she felt were disrespectful or angry, and use that information to learn to communicate with her in a way that does not hurt her.

I posted this quote from Dr. Harley above - please read it carefully. It's about disrespect, but Dr. Harley also applies it to demands and anger:

I think I realize that; and am willing to change the way I communicate; its the past that we need to deal with, I am willing to put my best foot forward.....she is very skeptical, so I don't know how I'd change that, but we'll deal with one thing at the time.

You change her skepticism by making permanent behavior changes. Do not concentrate on the past

You'll have greater success if both of you focus on what you would like from each other instead of focusing on what each of you did in the past. I find my W and I get caught up in a tit-for-tat discussion if we ever talk about what we "used to do".

Our conversations aren't void of complaints but we certainly know enough now to redirect the conversations to discuss what a better solution would look like. We have some pretty amazing brainstorming sessions now because of that habit.

The comments posted by kilted_thrower and MrAlias about the past are completely in line with what Dr. Harley advises on this subject. Don't bring the problems of the past into the present - instead concentrate on what needs to be done to build a good present and future.

Right now the number one thing that needs to be done is the elimination of demands, disrespect, and anger in your marriage. Do you have the book Love Busters?

Welcome!

I think it's great you've responded to your wife's request and are posting.

Let me help you with a few tips.



That doesnt matter. What matters it that it makes her unhappy so you need to quit it. Since she has kindly made you aware of what she needs to see stop, you can stop it, can't you?



That's great, but you are not aiming to do as well as YOUR standard. You are aiming to do as well as your wife's standard. Encourage your wife to keep complaining until you get the fine details she needs right.


That's conflict avoidance. Complaints are allowed - just do it respectfully.



It's fine to take that approach with 99.9 per cent of the world. If I annoy somebody unintentionally, it's their problem - I didn't mean to. You can't please everyone.

But anybody with whom you take that approach is unlikely to like you, much less love you. So if you want your wife to be in love with you, listen up and make life pleasant.

It's pretty easy to welcome a complaint and pledge to sort it out together. However you won't get closer to your wife while you have this 'but I didnt mean to' defensive shield up.

I would work through lovebusters very soon.

I found this post by Dr Harley over on the private forum that does a good job of addressing your strategy of capitulation above:

Hi, I'm Steubenville's wife. First, thank you very much for your time in responding to this thread. I just want you to know that all of the advice is sinking in. For life changing decisions, I really take my time and analyze it many ways several times.

My original thread about H's AOs is here. I tried the advice but it did not resolve the problem: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=129124&Number=1560473#Post1560473

The cycle (months of AOs/threats to leave followed by "I'll never threaten to leave again") repeated itself almost every year since 2006. My H sounds SO sincere when acknowledging a problem. I've believed him so many times that there's really nothing he can SAY now that I can believe.

Not a believer of divorce, several times when the AOs were so close together and I had no hope of making it through the next days or weeks without being cut into ribbons again, I would develop physical panic symptoms, several times needing treatment at the ER.

In Feb 2013 I reposted similar to the 06 thread, but this time the unanimous advice was a therapeutic separation while following MB rebuilding techniques. Your advice seemed too difficult to do (disturbing the children's home) as long as I had any nerves left to hang on. Few AOs with personal attacks occurred in front of the children - they were usually in our bedroom.

Additionally, the hateful despisement towards me in his verbiage all of these years had really destroyed any muster I could find to put myself out there for him again. Divorce was a far more attractive option for me than the separation you all were proposing - and that is something I NEVER imagined I'd think or say. Even when I emotionally divorced him in 2005 after a particular AO, realizing the futility of emotionally exposing myself to someone who could say what he said, and in my heart I felt the freedom to exit the relationship, however in my head I resisted actually splitting the kids' home. I just tried to show civility daily, try not to break any eggshells, and harden myself during his attacks so he couldn't see they hurt. I also took extraordinary care to never expose a vulnerability to him, as it would be thrown in my face during the next (or several next) AOs.

In June 2013, still feeling semi-panic every time I thought of putting myself out there to him with an MB style emotional intimacy which the separation would help build, I posted again whether it was possible to even get past so many lashes (i.e. the fabled definition of being an idiot). MBers SWARMED my post and said it IS possible - get to work! Call for coaching!!

While fighting to keep the stress/dread of putting myself out there for him again, I sold him on MB as a way out of our ditch. He agreed with the philosophy and said he would try it. In June I retrieved HNHN and Lovebusters from our shelves. He AGAIN committed sincerely to never use the "divorce" of "I should just leave" words to me, ever again. We read the AO chapter and the concept descriptions in HNHN. I asked the moderator to take my thread down so I could invite him to the forum. I felt he would lose any hope of winning the marriage back if he read all that I wrote. (I saved it first and still re-read it frequently.)

We went on our vacation before I scheduled the coaching appointment with Steve. He returned home before I did.

Meanwhile, H sent several links to cars he wanted to buy. I kept saying I wasn't comfortable with more debt. Finally I asked him to stop sending these links because repeatedly saying "no" was stressing me out when I was already feeling not strong enough for more stress, and the additional debt would keep me up at night right now (I'm underemployed) and I was starting to fear he would just buy yet another car against my protests anyway. His response was an email stating that at the risk of a divorce he was buying a minivan that day.

Between losing hope in him having any regard for our marriage, combined with his FOURTH "F/U" car and the prospect of untimely debt, I experienced a panic rush that felt like a heart attack and was shaking for the rest of the day. After giving it 24 hours of prayer and soul searching while in a physical state of panic/stress, I couldn't take it anymore and followed the advice received in my Feb 2013 MB thread, asking H to move out for 6 months while he got anger management counseling and we dated for 15 - 20 hours each week to try to build up our relationship again. I asked him to be out before I got home by the end of the week.

While he was replying to me with emails saying he wanted to stay married to me, to be in a relationship with me now and forever and that he was afraid a separation would make us drift apart (and other nice things).... he was also doing the following:
a) told our DS21 (currently serving a deployment) that I was not right in the head
b) told all his siblings that I was putting him out of the house, as if out of the blue. They were upset and started the "on your birthday, too!!" refrain.
c) told our DS19 and DIL I was putting him out of the house, out of the blue, on his birthday, and that his family was very upset at me. He repeated to DS19 and DIL all of the "poor you" comments his family was piling on.
d) told our D15 that he was no longer going to the family church but would start going to a church she likes better.
e) drove an hour to tell my sister I wasn't right in the head

I stopped the temporary separation because on the phone he was emotional and saying how he was going to be leaving to our children's crying faces (one of our daughters was home with him). Given what had already went down with the older kids, I didn't feel he could minimize the drama for her. He was also manipulative with a tactic that would hurt our DS21 and DIL. I told him to stop his move, and after I get there we'll work out a plan with an MC/MB.

It took so much nerve to point the car homewards - as the miles counted down, I was shaking even more. My panic symptoms lasted for over two weeks (finally took medication).

Since then there have been several AOs, but I mostly just avoid extended one-on-one time with him so there isn't another one. The email in the initial post on Steubenville's thread is what he says when he's concerned ....you should hear what he says when he's angry!

The status of separation: Steubenville requested it wait until January when hopefully I'll have a new job due to expenses of two households.

In MC last night, Steubenville said he was not willing to read books (including HNHB and Lovebusters), was not willing to undergo anger management training, was not willing to spend any of his daily internet time in the MB forums and would not return to his thread to get "beat up". I just wonder if he thinks this will blow over and all will return to the normal he likes if he can just wait it out. The only thing he is willing to do is date for UA time each week, see the MC weekly (who agrees my MB inspired separation request is a great idea for us) and he agreed to meet with our Pastor for spiritual guidance on Thursday of this week. The MC recommended another book but he said he won't read that one either. I know how you all feel about MCs but I agreed with my H's longstanding request to see a psychologist/MC. H has made reference to something being wrong with me mentally several times throughout our M, and getting me to a psychologist has long been a goal of his. I'm willing to take any steps he wants just to KNOW that I did everything I could.

The suggestion would be to separate. NOW, not later. These needless delays are impacting your mental and physical health in a very negative way. It also greatly increases the chance that you will end up divorced. The purpose of getting a separation is to hopefully avoid divorce. You may have allowed it to go too far at this point because I suspect you have long fallen out of love with him.

Your husband is pretty certain that you won't do anything to ever stop him so he has no motivation to stop his abusive tactics. You create a win/win situation by separating from him now, because he either goes through anger management and chooses to change his behavior or he doesn't. If he does, you have a chance at creating a happy marriage. If he doesn't you won't be around to take his abuse anymore.

You have looked for solutions long enough, Sunntimes. You have been coming here for YEARS and are still in the same position. It is clear your husband has no intention of changing. The best thing for you to do is separate. The sooner the better.

I would also add that you did not receive Marriage Builders advice when you came here in 2006 because the posters were not familiar with Dr Harleys views on abusive marriages. The advice to separate is from Dr Harley.

I would deny this request. He can support himself.

In re-reading my post, it talked a lot about being in a near panic.

I've never felt panic about anything outside of my M in spite of taking on some tall challenges at various times in my life.

The panic is really rooted in a "mamma griz" complex, you might say, where I perceive a threat to my children's best interest. Every time I knew I couldn't stay any longer, I'd think about all of the harm, statistically speaking, single parent homes cause children.

Outside of the M, no matter how stressful or difficult anything might be, I've never felt a stress/panic level anything like my post describes.