I did expose to her alanon sponsor. She did not meet OM at alanon but she has told me she was somewhat concerned about his habits. Her father did have addict issues and passed of accidental od when she was in her teens. She told me OM has an alcoholic/addict female friend that he has let stay at his apartment and sleep in car in his driveway on occassion. He does seem to drink a bunch. He is known to go to bars to meet women and some of his previous facebook pics were bar scenes. About a year and a half ago (before present OM) WW did go on a couple of 'dates' to a bar with a man she met in alanon. Just two dates that I know of, but she has texted him occasionally since then, but we have since moved out of state away from him.

How many affairs has she had?

She is so accustomed to poor boundaries that she may prefer being a renter and never commit to becoming a buyer in this marriage

I'm pretty sure that's it in terms of actually meeting up. Early in our marriage she would occasionally call an old long term boyfriend when we were having issues, but that had stopped several years ago when he got married and had kids (seems like it stopped at his request). In the past five years she had some email/facebook contact with another male friend from her past, but I don't think it came to meeting up (he is married also). I think present OM was just more convenient for her, geographically close and family of her best friend. As I have said she has been much more honest with me about these contacts than most people might expect, telling me as they happened. I guess back then I just didn�t know what to do about it or didn�t have the tools or confidence to stand up for myself in the situations. My AA program and sponsor have been extremely helpful in this regard and I have only recently begun t have the confidence to make my own decisions and take action.

It sounds like she has continuously been looking for hookups and has probably had other affairs. If not physical, then certainly emotional affairs. She has a renters approach to marriage, for sure. That means that she is always open for business. If you do end up discussing reconciliation, that would have to be a major change for her.

The dropoff of the kids to me last night went better than last time. I had the recorder on. my son resisted for a while. I told him he would be seeing mommy again in a few days. He still didn't want to get out of the car. I was about to let her take him and leave my daughter with me when I reminded him that I was going to make hot cocoa. He then calmly got out of the car and came with me. There was no crying after that and he did not even talk about mommy or ask to call her all night. Though my daughter tried calling her to sk if she could buy a game app for the iphone (I told her I could not pay for it right now).

WW called this morning with a seemingly sincere desire to have the family back together. She is really starting to feel the effects of not being with the kids much, as well as the stress of the situation affecting her at work as well as taking days off work to go to court. I reiterated to her the condition of no contact with OM, but that because of RO we would have to wait until the hearing. I don�t think I am ready to give in yet, before the RO hearing, and after the holiday weekend.

I am still waiting to hear from Dr. Harley. In the meantime, my question is, if I were to drop the RO now, what kind of chance would I have first for her to agree to no contact with OM, and if she does continue to contact him, what would be a practical way to do plan B without the RO in place and no funds to afford her a separate apartment. Though I guess she could continue to stay with her girlfriend and I could get locks changed on my apartment. If RO is not finalized, moving with the kids out of state to my parents without WW permission would not be possible.

at this point pursue the restraining order.

I got an email back from Dr. Harley. This is what he said:

Hi,

Exposure has many advantages, and one of them is to speed up the inevitable. If the marriage has a chance, it usually ends the affair quickly, but if there�s no chance, it speeds up a divorce. In your case, I�d consider a divorce to be almost the only reasonable end to your relationship. To continue living with your wife who is in love with another man, totally disregards your feelings by flaunting her affair under your nose, and is also physically violent toward you is asking for permanent injury or even death. I�ve known of many cases where a wife having an affair has tried to kill her husband and in some cases has succeeded. So far everything you have done is very wise, even though the outcome is not what you wanted. You can�t make your wife do the right thing. I would advise you to not drop the restraining order for your protection. I counseled a couple in a similar situation where the husband got a restraining order and was able to get a judge�s order to move his children to another state where he could have the assistance of his parents to raise the children. He is now a police officer and the children are doing very well. His wife had the option of moving to where he lives to be closer to the children but she refused, not wanting to leave her lover.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley



From:
Date:
To: <mbradio@marriagebuilders.com>
Subject: Please advise on long term affair situation

Dear Dr. Harley,

I am writing you upon the recommendation of some members on the infidelity discussion group on your website. I have been on the discussion group for almost three weeks, since I first discovered MarriageBuilders. I will give you the back story first then ask your advice on how to proceed at the end.

A few weeks ago I had had all I could take of my wife�s (we have been married for 13.5 years) long term affair and began looking for outside help, other than her parents and our marriage counselor (who was not helpful in helping to end the affair). We have two children, a nine year old daughter and six year old son. The affair began a year ago October when my wife was reintroduced to the other man at a birthday party of the child of my wife�s best girlfriend, where I was not in attendance due to work. The OM is the brother of my wife�s best friend, whom she had originally met shortly before she met me (over 16 years ago). They had gone on a single date together at that time, but no real chemistry happened at that time, according to my wife.

Since early in our marriage we have had issues meeting each other�s emotional needs. I am a recovering alcoholic with just about two years sober now, and have had issues with pornography in the past, but have been controlling that in the last year. My wife has been asking me to move out and asking for separation more seriously for the past year, though I never intended to leave or agree to separation. My wife has occasionally seeked out other men to talk to, mainly an old long term boyfriend, which had ended when he got married and had kids (on his request). Back to the current affair which is by far the most scarring for me. After she had been reintroduced to the OM he began texting her, initially pictures from the birthday party, then texting became regular. I told her to stop and I even texted the OM to stay away from my wife. No success. The relationship progressed to phone calls while I was working nights. She eventually would even be so blatant as to stay on the phone with him after I had gotten home for the night. At this point, about five months in, I finally found and scheduled an appointment with a marriage counselor. Y wife and I began going to counseling once a week. During this time WW began going out on date with OM, against my wishes. He would pick her up from our house after I got home from work. At one point my wife and kids had a sleepover at his sister�s house (they live in same town) and my wife snuck out of the house after everyone was asleep to go to OM�s house. The friend woke up when she was gone. The friend and her husband were very upset at both my wife and OM and the friend did not let her spend the night again, until a few weeks ago.

The marriage counselor recognized that the affair was not good, but was not really giving us the tools we needed to stop it. As the affair progressed WW spent a couple overnights at OM�s house. After one of these she admitted to me that they had sex. She was very guilt ridden when she told me, and she also admitted to our counselor. A few months ago I exposed the affair to WW parents but did not go into detail. I just said that she was seeing another man. They were obviously upset and WW and OM contact cooled down for a little while. Then it started up again, about a month and a half ago. She began spending two to three nights a week out late with him or spending the night at his place. She would leave before the kids went to bed, saying she was going to a meeting, or out with her girlfriend. She would return the next morning before the kids woke up. She even began having the OM over to our house when I was working and he children were home. I told her to stop this but it continued. She also took my kids over to his house and out in public with OM and his two daughters. This really enraged me.

This brings me up to the point where I found MarriageBuilders a few weeks ago and after a couple of days on the discussion forum I exposed the affair to WW friends and family, my family, and friends and family of the OM, as well as my children. When WW discovered that I had exposed via phone calls and facebook private messages she was livid. She came home from work that might and immediately began verbally accosting me which quickly progressed to a physical assault, hitting me and threatening me with a kitchen knife. This is not the first time that she has been physical with me. There have been a handful of more minor incidents (slapping, punching, grabbing). There was one very similar incident a year and a half ago where she hit me, ripped my glasses off my face, threatened me with a kitchen knife and bit me on the forehead, all while the children were home. That incident occurred shortly after I was fired from my job and we were under great financial and emotional stress.

When she assaulted me two weeks ago after I exposed the affair I called the police. My children were home at the time and they saw WW and me struggling but did not see the knife. WW was arrested upon admission of threatening me with the knife (a mandatory arrest in domestic cases when a weapon is involved). I told them I did not want to press charges but it didn�t matter. The kids went with my mother in law who lives a few blocks away. At the police station I gave my statement and requested a temporary restraining order. She has been out of the house since then. When I got the order I did not request custody of the children, since I work nights, and do not have family that could watch the kids at night. My in laws said they would not provide childcare as long as my wife and I are separated. They are in support of working on the marriage. We had a hearing last Wednesday, which I had adjourned to consider WW attorney proposal for civil restraint (I am not yet being represented by an attorney, but am working on it). At the hearing the judge clarified parenting time, since there was no change in custody. I have kids during the week and she has them Friday night to Sunday night, at least until the next hearing.

I have been reading �Surviving an Affair� and reading all I can on your website about plans A and B. I want to know if you recommend pursuing a final restraining order or not. WW has said that she would �consider� no contact with OM if I loosen up and allow her more parenting time than is written in the temporary restraining order. My question is, not knowing if she would actually follow through with no contact at this point, would I be able to plan n appropriate plan B if necessary if I drop the restraining order? My parents, who live out of state said that hey would house me and my children if I were able to gain custody, But I can not move them out of state until RO is finalized and I get permission from the judge. Financially I can not afford to just rent another place unless I maintain restraining order, though I do have sole possession of the apartment we are in and my wife is not allowed back here. If I finalize the restraining order I can request financial support from my wife to support the children (she started a full time job two months ago).

Please advise me on what you think would be the best way to proceed. The folks on the discussion forum recommended I email you directly.

Sincerely,

Well done, Eden. I'm sorry you're going through this. Dr. Harley has given you the advice you need.

Eden,
I think you're in a similar boat with me.
I can assure you, things will improve.

At this point, based on Dr Harleys letter, I think you should stop Plan A.
Be polite and civil and focus on getting an attorney.
DO NOT HELP HER GET THE KID OUT OF THE CAR
DO NOT TALK TO HER

IF YOU LIKE, I AM WILLING TO ACT AS AN EMAIL INTERMEDIARY FOR YOU

Thanks for the offer, Jedi Knight. I�ll let you know.

Last night WW heard of my plans to take kids out of state to my brother's house for tonight and Thanksgiving day. She actually called my mother and was using any excuse she could to get me not to go: the stormy weather, my family will probably be serving and drinking alcohol, poor interactions with my daughter and my brother's kids in the past. She called me and tried to berate me with this as well, but I had to cut her short then stopped answering the phone (she actually had called my daughter's phone to talk to me). I was not answering her calls. She was extremely upset that I had not told her my intentions of taking them out of state for the holiday and that I have not been telling her who has been babysitting the kids or where I take them the past two weeks. I know that if I told her she just would have gotten angry sooner. I didn�t tell her this but I had already checked with an attorney and confirmed that I do not have to tell her where I take the kids, before or after the fact. She said that because I have not been telling her details about the kids� whereabouts and plans that she is feeling �vindictive.� I did not respond to that but that is not a great thing for her, considering the RO and her pending criminal charges.

My mother in law watched the kids for me last night while I went to a substance abuse evaluation and she heard that we would be going to my family for Thanksgiving. She cautioned me about it because she said when my wife was young and my MIL had a restraining order on wife�s father she was sent to summer camp out of state, just 20 miles away, and her father got the court involved an it got to be uncomfortable for my MIL. So she didn�t tell me not to go but cautioned me that it might be more trouble than it is worth.

As for transferring the kids I am going to propose that we start dropping and picking them up at my mother in laws� house or the neighbor so we don�t have the arguments we�ve been having.

Later she texted me that she expects to pick up the kids at 5pm sharp today, which is not her time to get them. According to RO, she will get them back Friday morning. I�m not sure why she is expecting this, but I plan to be on the road before 5 anyway.

I am scheduled to meet with a lawyer tomorrow who will possibly represent me n court so I can review all of this information with him to make sure I am within the law.

WW is sill at least calling the OM

On the possibility of me moving in with my parents out of state:

As I have said before I do have some reservations about me and the kids living with my parents, to the absence of showing love and criticism toward bothe me and my kids. My parents rarely even call to talk to the kids. Part of this though may be that they are scared of my wife, who has occasionally called my folks complaining about me and their criticisms of her, and the kids. They have gotten somewhat better on the criticism lately and I am improving on setting my boundaries and calling them on their criticism and other garbage.

I suppose if I do move in with them I can know that it can be temporary until I can get on my feet financially and get my own place. I do think it may be the best thing to move out of state if I aim to have no contact with WW.

My only other option seems to be stay where I am and get much higher income quick, but it will have to be uch higher as have no support from my family here and am unsure of how much support WW family will offer if I proceed with finalizing the RO and remain separated from WW.

I realize I am mainly just thinking out loud here but would like your opinions on just how damaging living with my folks could be to me and my children.

The other factor is that my family still drinks alcohol, though they are supportive of my sobriety. I have been ok not drinking when I am at their house and family functions, but living with them may put a bit more pressure on. I will discuss this with my sponsor.

I think moving in with your family would be a disaster. They are not supportive of your family and it sounds like it would be a breeding ground for temptations for you. I would focus on getting on your feet where you are now. Don't just transfer dependency to someone else. And I agree with your idea of doing child exchanges with the neighbor. It doesn't seem your MIL is going to be too helpful.

some cities and counties offer child exchange locations. I have heard that some organizations such as the Salvation Army also offer that service

It has been a couple days since I posted because Wednesday was full with trip to legal services and talking with attorney who will represent me in court, which took most of the day. Then I got kids ready to travel and went to my brother's house out of state from Wednesday night until late last night. The attorney got another adjournment granted to hve time to prepare the case, but we don't have a date yet as court was closed for the holiday weekend.

Wednesday morning my wife was texting me that she really wanted to get back together, not just for kids' sake, but also that that is what kids want. I did not respond. While was with the lawyer she texted me that she lost her job. This is possible, but I still am wondering if this is true. She had been talking about other people in her office being fired/laid off recently. Herdirect supervisor was actually let go two weeks after WW started the new job a couple months ago. She texted that she hoped I had another plan to support the kids. She has not talked about the job loss since.

After I met with lawyer I picked up my kids from childcare and came back to my apartment to get ready for the trip to my family. When I pulled into the parking lot I saw WW car here. I proceeded into the apartment with my kids and found my wife was inside the apartment. In all that has happened in the last two weeks I never thought of taking her key away. I will work on getting management to change locks.

Now, I did not call the police while she was here. I did not want to have a big scene in front of the children. I did call police several hours later that night after I had arrived at my family�s house, so it is on record now that she was in violation. While she was here I focused on packing the kids bags for the trip. She wanted to talk to me and hug and even kiss me. This was really awkward. She asked why I was avoiding her if I really ultimately wanted to work on the marriage. I told her it didn�t feel right, right now. She reiterated that she said she was willing t end contact with OM but when I suggested a NC letter she said she would be uncomfortable with that. After about 15 minutes we all left the apartment and went our separate ways.

By the time I arrived at my family I had been contacted by the police from the town where WW is staying. An officer told me WW had been in and filed a complaint of harassment against me, regarding the exposure letters I had sent out. She had told them that she believed that I was till contacting people, which I have not since before the assault two weeks ago.

I have not informed my attorney about this yet but will email her today. She is out of office until Monday.

I just have a couple questions as I proceed to try to finalize the restraining order:

1. If I am using the RO as part of plan, and assuming I go into full plan B, how will I know when WW means business about NC with OM? Should I bother telling her that I know she is still contacting him (at least by phone)?

2. If and when a WW comes around to recovery, at which point will I reveal MB and all discussion I have done with you all regarding exposure, spying, etc?

3. As RO is still not finalized, what are your recommendations if I am to get a final RO but not able to get custody of kids? My attorney told me I hada good case to get RO finalized but she was not so sure I would get custody based on what I have told her. Though child protective is deeply involved and will need to weigh in on custody issue, they move slowly. Mine and the kids� psychological evaluations are scheduled mid through late December.

Just a little aside as to how it went with my family for the holiday: There was no drinking (visible at least)at either my parents' or my brother's house. My kids really had a great time with my brother's kids. My sister in law is very supportive. She is a tough woman. She was divorced with a son before she married my brother. My parents offered money to hel me with rent until I can get a better job, move to a cheaper apartment or in with them, or apply for soicial services. My mother is coming to visit for the weekend to watch kids while I work, as I will have kids all weekend.

If you decide to go into Plan B, you would have an intermediary.


Never. Your resources should never be revealed. If you reconcile, you can bring her to MB but I would ask the moderators to remove your thread.


I would finalize the RO since she has assaulted you. AND get the locks changed today!!


You do realize your wife can't file a "harassment" suit based on letters you sent to others, right? And it is not against the law in the US to tell the truth. She has filed a frivolous complaint that will not have any legs. Does she want to go to court and have you bring the evidence of her affair? Because that is the outcome of her actions. She did this to harass you, but it will blow back on her.

You need to call the police the next time she comes.
Let them physically remove her.