Hi, I've been reading your thread and just wanted to say that I think that you are spot on. The stuff that you and Ernie have been laying out on the board is the past. Dr. Harley says that yesterday is the past.

If you two can learn to keep ALL love busters out of it, you can start to POJA in a way that you will both feel cared for. It will be much work on both of your parts to deal with the food issues, finances, back yard and garage, etc., but if you BOTH decide to work together to do it as you POJA each and every thing, it can be done.You did not really answer Ernie's question. He asked you if you were willing to attempt a POJA. And you didn't say yes or no. You just kind of left it open ended�it might be too late�if that means no, that you are unwilling to POJA, then you need to say so. Is there anything that he can do so that you will be willing to attempt a POJA? Could you start out with an easier POJA and see how it goes?

If Ernie starts out by first sending his paystubs to your home mail, would you be willing to start working on POJA in regards to finances?

I agree that the past is the past ...to the extent it is not manifesting itself into every day of the present.

My three concerns about that are:

a) Ernie states that a grudge he is holding from the past is driving aspects of his controlling behavior today, a fix of which goes beyond some financial POJA.

b) Ernie and Elaina's perception of the same event are miles apart. For example, causing several overdrafts per month (assertion of wantonly reckless behavior) vs needing to move money from "his" account to "her" account such as when they both agreed the cat needed to see the vet.

c) Ernie's understanding of how he is doing the same behavior he is lovebusted by when she does it. Such as him being lovebusted by seeing junk food purchases or the oven being used or other spending he deems frivolous (per his description) while he spends frivolously on several boxes of unused car parts per week that are now filling up a 3 car garage, its attic, a storage container he bought to hold them and 8" high storage filling up much of the yard.

I disagree that this goes beyond a "POJA fix.". The list you provided include exactly the types of things the policy of joint agreement can fix.

I agree with you, though, that it is a decision to use the POJA, and one doesn't have forever to make that choice, and that today's love bank balance is due to behavior of the past. POJA makes a new pattern of behavior that can essentially make new memories. I am hoping that Ernie can get that ball rolling by taking some actions that show goodwill and willingness to use the POJA.

Take him up on it!



You need to PoJA everything. So that means a menu for the week, how the meals are cooked, what time you eat, who cooks it, if you cook together, will the cooking method generate too much washing up, should you wash up together - everything.

PoJA is more than just a request for things to change, it is a process.

You both need to sit down, create a weekly menu you both like, perhaps do the shopping online or in the store together. In fact grocery shopping together is one of Dr H's favourite ways to get couples to practice PoJA. Nothing goes in the basket without both people approving it.

Even once you've done this initial task it will probably still need tweaks over time. Until you have a diet and routine and budget that works for you both. Shopping and meals have such a huge impact on family time/finances and health that the decisions should involve you both. Of course the entire responsibility should not lay upon just one of you.

I get the impression your responsibilities are separated out too much which has let you get out of touch with other.

I agree. Nothing goes beyond a PoJA fix. PoJA prevents resentment, blame, dishonesty, grudging agreements - it is a catch all ensuring caring.

I know you will feel beat up after the recent slew of lovebusting; but PoJA can resolve this issue if your H is willing.

It is never too late to implement a plan!

I agree with you Sunnytimes. However, practicing POJA in every single aspect of their lives will stop that in its tracks. If they are both committed to never do anything without enthusiastic agreement, then they can become compatible.

I know that it sounds simplistic. It is simple. But it is not simple to do.

No, it doesn't have to go beyond POJA. Not if the two of them are radically honest while they are POJA'ing. No sacrifice. Remain pleasant with no LB'ers . If it is not agreed upon, then it isn't done.

My H and I took radical action and did this as the house of cards came tumbling down around us (and yes he was quite often late for work and/or didn't go to work). IF they want to save their marriage and if they will honestly take their marriage first above everything else in their lives, it can be done.

Perceptions don't really matter with POJA, do they? If they agree that starting this second, they will not do anything without POJA, then technically they don't even need to re-visit the past. As for quite recent stuff�both of them can learn to say "it bothers me when�" and "I would like it if�.".

Agreed. These are definitely issues, and it seems like an uphill battle, but as long as they stop any and all love busters, and as long as they agree to be radically honest and POJA each thing, what would Dr. Harley say about the hoarding and spending habits?

I read Ernie's thread and saw the forum helping him to get rid of LB'ers. I think that the forum could now help them both to learn how to POJA considerately. They've both already worked so hard to get to where they are now (and to get so that Elaina and Ernie both are "safe" in revealing their feelings). I think that they can do this if they are both committed.

Just wanted to check in and let you know that we stayed up till almost 2 last night talking. It went well and Ernie seems to really be on board with jumping in and doing MB.

He has said this before: but it was a good talk so taking him at his word and will see what he does.

I do agree that I believe POJA would fix our problems: but it is going to be really hard.

Here's the thing Elaina. You don�t even need to 'trust' that he will do as he says. You just need him to do it. There's an opportunity for him to do so and if he gets back on his thread he will get daily peer coaching on how-to.

Are you doing it DIY or getting an MB coach?

YAY Elaina, good for you and Ernie!

We will absolutely help you with learning to POJA. Yes it will be really really hard. And really really worth all of the work.

Cross posting to both of you in a very general manner.

1) Minimal - get Love Busters, He Wins, She Wins, and 5 Steps to Romantic Love.

Medium - Get some coaching sessions in addition to the above.

High Gear - Get the Online Program

2) Each of you work on eliminating YOUR OWN Love-busting behaviors.

Each of you work on meeting the other's Emotional needs.

(The 5 steps book includes communication sheets to help you communicate ENs and LBs - but some are rather simple; Don't AO/SD/DJ)

3) Last, but most importantly, start getting 20+ hours of UA time EACH WEEK.

At this point, with both of you in heavy conflict/withdrawal, attempting to tackle POJA is an exercise in futility.

People don't generally want to POJA with people whom they are not in love with.

Tackle UA, complete 1 and 2. Then come back to POJA.

Together When You Are Happiest




Helpful tools to start - Print and Complete;


Emotional Needs

Love Busters

There are more... quite a few more than were available when I first arrived here just under 4 years ago;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi4500_resource.html


So, quit using the forum posters as referees for your passive-aggressive argument, STOP ARGUING, and get down to Marriage Building... shall we?

Just an update. We have been super busy. Doing things that at least we are POJA about.

Yesterday, my DH found the tv remote that had been misplaced. I asked him where he found it, and he told me he wouldn't tell me. No one had obviously put any effort in finding it so I didn't deserve to know. I told him I would really like to know, but again.... And still he refuses to tell me.

I feel so loved and cared for. :-(

It is still situations like these that are huge LB that he just doesn't get.

I truly believe we need to do the online accountability program.
Doing it "on our own" is not going to work fast enough.

Will he agree to that?

Oh nice! A gratuitous lovebuster. That would undo about a weeks worth of lvebank deposits for me personally. Is it his goal to continue to drain your lovebank so that none of his efforts have any effect?

I agree that doing it on your own doesn't seem to be working and that this would be one of the best next steps. The coaching program can help through the process of communicating love busters and help him to understand why this is so offensive and hurtful and how important it is that he STOP doing things like this, at all cost.

You can't survive living like this for much longer, Elena, and it is vital that Ernie understand this and take the problem seriously (i.e., DO SOMETHING about it - STOP doing things that are so disrespectful, demanding, and angry)

Hi Elaina:

Yup, that was an LB on his part. However, watch your reaction... What you said here, "I feel so loved and cared for :-( " is sarcastic. And an LB from you. You have to be able to stop your LB's EVEN IF and EVEN WHEN your H is LB'ing you.

I know how much of a challenge this can be. However, your reaction is a bad habit, which you can learn to stop.

You CAN say, "It hurt me when you said that." Without any negative tone in your voice. It is purely informational.

Ok cat wit... I didn't say that to him. I am so confused about this.

It happened the morning after Valentines where we went out and had a great time.

I was sitting on the couch and he came in with DD3. She wanted to watch something and I said, we don't have the remote.
Ernie told me he had found it.
I said great and smiled, where was it hiding?
Then he told me he wasn't telling me.
I thought he couldn't be serious and said I would really like to know.

He very sternly said that he wasn't going to tell me because obviously no one had really tried to find it as it was out in the open so I didn't deserve to know.

I felt deflated as said your really not going to tell me where you found it? I was sad and soft.
No, I'm not telling you on principle ( in my heart it was a type of AO as it was not said kindly but mean)
Then He sat down to watch the tv with DD3 while I got up and left being crushed.

I am telling this just to show how if I can't ask this without now being told that I was demanding to him- I have no earthly clue how to approach him on anything greater.

I think he didn't mean to hurt me or even understands why this is mean. That just makes it harder and why I would like some help.

Right now today he is saying no on doing the online program.

That says a lot ...

Not only is he saying no to the online program, he has decided he doesn't need any help from here, and I'm just going to take a guess that he still doesn't have his pay stubs sent to your home address. That was one, easy to do act he could have done to start showing goodwill on his part and he didn't do it.

He has given you his answer about what he's going to do about your concerns and complaints. Can you live the rest of your life with his answer?