Hi to one and all! I have been lurking and reading. My H posted some time back under Earnest (I think but am not 100%)

I am coming to an end on our marriage and do not believe we have any hope. I have heard about and read about such amazing turn arounds here that it at least makes me want to ask a few questions.

Married 2 1/2 years.
My second marriage, his first
I have two kids from previous marriage(although he lied about this in the forum)
We have an toddler together.
I am a 35 year old woman, he is 41.
My first marriage ended as he was abusive.

Where to begin? In my opinion he doesn't see a need to change anything as he is happy as long as I lie and don't complain. He doesn't understand why I am upset or unhappy.
He refuses all my asking to get help. I was surprised to see he wrote here, but as usual, he blames all my complaining typically on my ex even though I never bring him up.

We did fill out EQ and LB. He did write a few things which I have tried to fix or stop doing etc. He saw mine and told me that I had unrealistic expectations and was to needy for him he couldn't stand it. That is about as far as that went.

He has AO that scare me. It makes me feel like someone is taking a 2x4 and beating me with their words. I feel like I have walked into another abusive situation but at least he doesn't hit me.

He won't tell me what money he makes. He puts some money in a joint account but it isn't even enough to cover bills. He has his paychecks go to work so I can't see them. He will fill out a budget with me and then nothing happens. He puts most of his paychecks into a "private" account. I normally don't even know what is in "ours".

This is a small glimpse.
If I filled out what is threatening our marriage, I would have to say everything. AO, DJ, SD, IB, AH, DH... My EN are not met.

What do I do? I have tried to sell it to him, but he already gets exactly what he wants so ??? I want to leave and go into plan b yesterday as even being in the same room with him makes me physically ill at this point and I see no other way.

I could totally not be seeing the forest through the tree's so please feel free to tell me where I am going wrong or if I am on the right path. Thank you!

Hi Elaina77. I am sorry you are experiencing the pain that had to bring you here. There are some VERY good vets here who can help you figure this out.

Is he verbally and mentally abusive to you? Just because he isn't physically abusive does not mean that you are not being abused. These behaviors of his that you have explained are not good for you. If they hurt you, then they are abusive. It is very difficult being married to someone like that. You probably have no balance in your love bank. They take and take until there is nothing left.

You have come to the right place Elaina. Keep your head up. Stay strong for yourself. Do not tell your H. that you are now posting here or what your user name is. This is a safe haven for you to get the help and support that you need.

Thanks Little :-)

Well, according to DR. Harley, yes, he is verbally abusive and not sure about mental? All I know is yes, all I feel from him is pain.
My love bank is deep in the red. Everything inside of me is screaming to get very far away from him.
I have trouble trusting myself (and him telling me I only feel this way over and over because of my past doesn't help)
I will not tell him about posting here.

Is this him? http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=166303&Number=2617657#Post2617657

Elaina, when did you begin your relationship with Ernie? Did you begin seeing him prior to being legally divorced from your first husband? I see that you have a child who is almost two, and you've been married 2-1/2 years. Is this correct? Were you were pregnant when you got married? (I'm not judging you either way - I'm just trying to piece together your marital history, which may help the posters who are advising you.)

According to her DH's thread (if that is her DH) she divorced in 2008.

Ok, Melody Lane, Yes Ernie... that is him I believe.

I was divorced in 2007 and moved across the country and met my now DH around a year and a half after my Divorce was final. We dated for a year and got married about 6 months after that.
I had dated a plethora of men for 2008 before him (met him in Dec) so I thought that my radar was up and working well. I just wish I would have found MB when dating!!!!

He never had ONE AO the entire time of our dating etc. My entire family have been surprised by his change in character as they call it.

I got pregnant the first month of marriage. It was by choice as we both wanted a child together and with age etc decided not to wait.

This is why I am not sure it is him (although it sounds exactly like him) He wasn't honest in his posting, but since honesty is a Huge problem with him, it wouldn't surprise me.

E-35

Oh, and in his post... well. My oldest son is old enough to babysit and can and does whenever we need him to.

I am not depressed other than of course being sad at the state of our relationship.

I do tell him what is wrong, but he pulls the I never tell him what is wrong all the time on me which is frustrating to no end for me to explain how I feel, what is going on etc, to have him turn around and tell me that I don't talk to him (or that the only reason I feel this way is because of my ex etc)

I do feel like every single conversation I have with him is full of disrespect from him telling me how I feel or how I "should" feel, that I don't mean what I say, that the fact I hate being screamed at and humiliated is because of my ex, the only reason I want to know what he is doing, share things is because I am needy.

I will be honest that I have appointments next week with divorce lawyers to find out my rights, what I would need to do to follow this path. In TX, the only way I could support myself is to file as I am sure he would not pay bills if we just separated.

I know it is the weekend and will be slow, but I will be around when I can. I am open to being told that I am being disrespectful etc. I really try to always treat others as I would like to be treated etc. So I am open..
advice welcome..

How much UA time are you getting?

Have you seen this? How often is he having AOs? Are you committing any love busters?
What to do with an Angry Husband

Thank you for that link, I had never seen it. Yeah for Pricsa?

We get about 10 hours of "UA" but I don't count it as it is not fun for me and now have a complete aversion to it as it was never full of Aff, SF, C or RC.

Humm, I have insisted he stops the AO, but in my book they still happen several small ones during the week with one big one a month.
I have asked him for counseling, a AO program etc-all of which he adimitly refuses. He tells me that AO are a part of a "normal" relationship so me not wanting it he will try but it will never happen.
Last week, my son and friends were out playing in our back woods. He suddenly came out with a chain saw and started chopping down trees.(again, he doesn't tell me what he is doing ever) I texted him about boys being back there and to please stop. I thought it dangerous!
I was sitting on our front porch watching the 7 year old DD with her friend in the front. He comes around the house and starts yelling at me right there (I am treating him like a dog, he is home, I have no right to tell him what to do-i am making selfish demands now and he isn't going to live his life around kids etc etc) my mom heard on the phone and was so startled she began to cry, the girls started crying. I froze in terror.

I am done with this... he has to go away and get help for even just this ONE issue. That post is making me feel better!

Hi Elaina77 - I'm sorry to hear where you're at and what you've been through to get to this point. I don't know how much hope there is for your marriage, especially if it is abusive... but I do believe following Harley's approach to marriage building is your best shot at it.

How would you answer these questions?

I would be happy in my marriage if my husband stopped doing the following things:

1)

2)

I would be happy in my marriage if my husband started doing the following things:

1)

2)

I haven't read the thread that may or may not be your husband's but I do know that most marital breakdowns are two sided. In cases of abuse, Harley doesn't work until the abuse stops. But casting him as the only one with problems may be counterproductive. How do you think your husband would answer the above questions about you?

Remember - the only variable you have control over in this (or any) situation is you and your behavior. You can't change your husband. You can only motivate him to change through your behavior. You probably realize this but sometimes it is useful to step back and remember it.

What can you DO now that you haven't been doing in order to get what you want in your marriage?

What unproductive behavior can you stop doing now that you have been doing in order to get what you want in your marriage?

I hope these questions are helpful.

BWS

Elaina, I would pay close attention to Prisca's thread and understand that this is a non-starter until he gets his anger under control. If he is having angry outbursts he needs to go through anger management classes. THAT is the first step, so I would focus on getting him into AM classes. If he won't do that, then there is nothing here to save.

My suggestion would be to visit an attorney and find out your rights. Once you do that, give your husband the opportunity to go through Anger Busters [Dr Harley approves of this program]. If he won't do that, then you should have a plan to separate.

Here is a link to the anger busters program: http://www.angerbusters.com/

Well. I talked to DH and he said today that he is now open and willing to go to MB online course as well as any anger course I would like him to take.

I still hold no hope as I have not heard this from him before but have to wonder if he isn't just trying to appease me. I want this to be enthusiastic or he won't do the work.
I am not sure I even want to bother giving him a chance.

I have been asking this for so long, he understood the consequences -it feels to late.

I am still seeing attorneys this week.

ML is right in that if he doesn't get his AO under control it doesn't matter what else he is doing right. I refuse under any conditions to continue living with an angry person.

Sigh. A year ago, this news would have made my heart soar. Now, I feel nothing-I fear I have waited to long to separate.

E

Elaina, take his willingness to do the online course and RUN WITH IT! Let Dr Harley and your coach [they assign you a personal coach] motivate him because that is their job. Dr Harley can also help him get his anger under control. He is a MASTER at that. If your husband is doing it to appease you, that is a positive, right? What better reason could there be?? Run with it, Elaina!

Thank you ML....

I will try it then. I went to the lawyer... that was depressing.
I admit it did give me an incentive to not walk that road!

Hopefully we can sign up this week as we don't have time to waste. Thank you for taking the time to comment
I appreciate it.

Elaina, welcome to MB. That totally makes sense that you would take a wait-and-see attitude instead of believing someone's words before they are backed up by consistent action over time. Please make sure to continue to get your back-up plan in place just in case.

It has been more than a week and I thought I would at least stop by
I don't plan on going anywhere.

After yes, lets do MB online... it turned into no we don't need it or it is all snake oil again. The only thing he is willing to do he says is to take 5 steps to Romantic love and go through it together. He took it to work and made 2 copies.

He still never brings it up, I mention it but something is always going on, or he isn't in the mood etc. He did come down with a nasty cold this week too.

I went today and got my doc to put me on Dep meds just in case I am somehow not seeing the big picture because of some underlying problem.

The biggest thing is that he took me out to a park and for hours just berated (at least how it felt to me) about money and life and all kinds of things. I couldn't get away-I kept asking him to stop, but he kept telling me I only wanted to stop talking because I hate being honest..amongst other name calling.
It was horrible. I felt so bad, I felt like he was tearing me to pieces with his words.I haven't been the same since. Seriously.... it tore me to shreds.

I have to work on a few things for a plan B so there is unfortunately no way for me to do it right now.

Any suggestions?

To answer the questions:
How would you answer these questions?

I would be happy in my marriage if my husband stopped doing the following things:

1)Angry Outbursts

2)Disrespectful Judgements

Actually, all the lovebusters Dr. Harley talks about he does in abundance. All of them would need to stop but the AO need to happen first because as it is, I am scared of him. His words hurt tremendously and I am just as afraid of words. (He has never come close to physically hurting me)

I would be happy in my marriage if my husband started doing the following things:

1)Made me feel safe

2)Spoke nicely to me and Wanted to talk to me.

Is this the kind of thing you are talking about or do I need to be way more specific with him?

I don't want to be more specific on my EN.
He will only use that knowledge to hurt me though....Is this a DJ on my part?
So far in the past, I tell him an EN and he makes fun of it or tells me that I am silly for it or just stops doing it at all. Sigh....

I realize that after our big Park blow out that obviously he is resentful about some things and I am more than happy to have a safe conversation about it. Taking me to a place where I can't get away, calling me names and scaring me isn't the way to accomplish it.

E

So no other suggestions?

Just plan for plan B as soon as I can? That is what I am doing.

It will be January before I can financially do this though :-(

2 more months of hell to go... sigh

Can you do phone coaching for you? They phone coach you separate anyway so you could at least have your sessions?

Another thing he does is I have no real access to any money.
(he puts only partial money in a joint account but JUST enough to cover mortgage and bills)

I get a bit of Child Support from my ex but no way of having enough to call. Money is very very tight for me.

I guess I could write them on the radio show.
What would they say that would be different though?

I know I have to separate from his actions. Plan B is in order.

Surviving till then will be hard.

Thanks for responding Brainhurts. I guess I just wanted someone to know what I was going through more than anything.

Of course I feel for you and I do know what you're going through and please continue to come here and post.

So why do you have to wait for Jan?

So what are you able to do for yourself? Exercise? Do you work?

Elaina, I would suggest to talk to a local women's shelter, I think they can help you effectively protect yourself from his LBs in the meantime while you get your ducks in a row for Plan B. You don't have to stand there and take his treatment. Like for example you don't have to get in a car with him or stay in a room with him while he is having an AO and saying things that hurt you.

It took me a long time to come to understand that. I used to reread the Conversation Is Boring article daily, it helped me identify conversations that were going badly ahead of time, and I'd try to switch the conversation back to something we both liked to talk about, and if that didn't work I'd go take a walk. Even then I would get caught off-guard a lot.

Also, focus on making great memories for you two and the kids, planning fun, light FC and UA time, that spaces the AOs further out too, making the situation more livable for you and the kids. It's hard, I hope you get as much support as you can. Many others have been where you've been, better days are ahead for you and your family.

Well, from my first marriage where I was in danger... I learned a TON about how to avoid AO as much as possible. I won't stand there and take it....it is just stressful on me even when no AO or DJ's are happening.
Since he took me out to that park and went nuts, I won't do that again.

However; his constant AO are mostly at my kids and that means I have to come in and rescue them
Which means he then AO and DJ at me while we try to leave, get away. No matter how hard I try to keep it from happening, it still does.

The one abuse shelter in town is packed with women who are in danger and I don't fit their qualifications for help. I have called them before. Its a terrible middle ground.

I am and will keep trying to make things light and fun as possible but since he hates FC (really, I don't think he likes my kids and is resentful they exist)-I won't push it.

I can't leave until January as I have talked to my soon lawyer, I have a plan in place and money wise, and house wise it can't happen until then. (I want him to leave the house- not us as that would be even harder on all the kids)
To make sure I can have the money to file what I need to, survive until orders come in etc. Won't have it until then.

(Even then the money will be coming from my mom as I don't have extra)
My only other family is a sister who is a missionary in Indonesia and they can't help right now either.

So will you please promise to come in and keep checking in with the board?

What does he say when you ask him to leave?

What other support system do you have?

ETA:Never mind I answered my own question.

Elaina I can imagine those were tough calls to make and I admire the bravery it took to make them. I don't know who else in your community can speak to your H on the kids behalf in the meantime, maybe neighbors, friends, someone from the school or house of worship. Folks do this stuff to kids because they think know one knows. Maybe if there is someone who would take an interest to check in with your family it would make a difference in the meantime.

Thanks NED, I moved here 2 years ago when we married so I still only have a handful of people that I know.
He has a zillon acquaintances and no friends it seems. I can't think of anyone to speak to and the few times I have mentioned someone to talk to -it has caused a HUGE AO as he tells me it is "ungodly" to speak of each other to others.

We have people that comes over but he is always Mr. Perfect when anyone is around.

To answer other questions. I haven't worked since we got married. For relaxing, I read like crazy, take walks, and practice archery. I play a ton with the kids.

E

So I had something weird happen last night the I would like to talk about.
My H came to me and started asking about having another child together... I was a bit taken back. When I told him no way, He was like, but we have such a great relationship and are doing so much better now.

I said I don't know what is going on but we are not ok, very far from it. He went on and on about how if I would just start being Godly and only thought about good things, forgave him and stopped being "stuck" on things in the past we would be great. As he was going on, he did not use an AO but to me I get nervous and it was still full of DJ's.

Anyhow, I started to uncontrollably shake from being so nervous, especially my legs. I just could not stop. It startled him enough that he did at least stop talking and went away. I took me awhile to calm down but was up almost all night with an upset stomach.

1) what on earth is going on? How can I not be communicating that things are bad and he be on such a deluded state that we are great, lets have a kid????
2) I just don't know what to do with my physical state now. Darn this...

Elaina, we have several posters whose marriages have come back or are coming back from similar situations where the H's AOs were what was killing the marriage, so I hope they can weigh in. I think this would have been a good opening for you to share your vision of what you want for your kids - an AO-free home where your kids learn thoughtfulness from both of you. And that your kids don't have that now. That you want to believe in him, but that his actions undo your efforts to try to believe in him. If he's coming at it form the religious viewpoint, you probably know the scripture better than I do, that if someone wrongs you, you let him know so he can fix it. But if he refuses, you take him to some other folks and try to set it straight. Your H is thinking this can all be swept under the rug with no one finding out about it, but that is what makes it fester is no accountability to anyone whose opinion matters to him.

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Matthew 15:15-18

Then after that is the parable of the Unmerciful Servant. The king forgives the servant a huge sum of money, and then that same servant refuses to forgive a fellow servant a small debt. Your H still hasn't gone to anger management, and expects you to forgive behavior that hasn't stopped yet.

My ex did this, refused to make the changes our marriage needed, instead focused on red herring (let's get a dog, let's move) and then the issue became how inflexible I was instead.

I think this would have been a good opening for you to share your vision of what you want for your kids - an AO-free home where your kids learn thoughtfulness from both of you. And that your kids don't have that now. That you want to believe in him, but that his actions undo your efforts to try to believe in him.


Thanks for the input. I have numerous times told him my vision for what I want the kids to be raised in. He agree's with me but I have not seen actual action change yet.

We tried another talk after Church Sunday where he says he will fill out paperwork in Dr. Harley workbook. We will see.
I go through times of almost having a full panic attack in his presence to being ok trying to keep things light and fun. My emotions are on a roller coaster.

He was in a bad mood tonight. My son was brought to tears. After H was asleep, he came to me begging me to leave him again. My son just cries and cries.....(this is not usual)
I can't sleep.

I have had a full week of sick kids so its kept me busy.

On other news, I found that he made a new post over in the Other topics forum. I am apparently using MB as a weapon.

Your uncontrollable shaking sounds like panic attacks. I encourage you to visit your doctor

Thanks HDW,
I am already on meds. I only started the end of October though. I have been on them before.. they are not magic and if I continue to put myself in situations that honestly "scare" me... they don't guarantee I won't panic out.

I personally feel that a Normal human can start to panic out when faced with disrespect and anger. I think it is a sign my body is trying to tell me. I just have no way to leave now.

I wish I would have found MB before.

Stress does weird things to the body. I have all my life been a warm blooded person, never cold. The last few yrs of marital stress I started to get cold really easy. So bad I finally went online to research what would cause this and read 'stress' and then it all made sense. Weird.

Now, whenever we have conversations about topics that are intense/stressful I get cold and have to get a blanket. Sometimes my teeth even chatter.

There are ways to leave. People leave marriages all the time. Even during wars and famine.
You need to create a "exit plan" if you want to leave and plan, step by step, how you can accomplish that goal.

Elena, how are things going? I see your husband is posting again.

Yes, that is me. I changed the ages and number of our kids to protect our identities from "the internet". .. you know how that goes.

Thanks for the link, I am reading through it now. i don't even know where to begin to go looking for an "anger management class?" There isn't anything in the phone book :-)

Can any counselor do it, or only certain ones?

Has anyone heard anything good or bad about these folks?

http://certifiedcourtclasses.com/Anger_Management_Options.html

I have texted Elaina77 and asked her to check in again. I have not texted the link to the other thread, though: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2759986

I am here now.

He isn't suppose to comment on my thread but I doubt he knows that.
I really was so hopeful getting and reading the books, trying to talk about things, going out for UA time etc. All of it doesn't matter though as the AO and DJ and attitude towards my kids just keeps on killing my Love Bank.


Reading his thread lead me to :
My sweet daughter is a crazy disrespectful girl (which isn't true)
He made a horrible mistake in marrying me.
He really isn't going to do anything but look stuff up on the internet.

He has been calling up others in our church who are all now pressuring me to met with them for counsel. I have had such church "counsel" in the past with my ex and would rather gouge my eyes out then listen to them.
They have already told me all I need to do is "commit" to the marriage and all will work out and sending me text that I am not a transparent person acting like Jesus. (Because of me telling Ernie I am done and then with them trying to step in and help and I refuse to meet with the church people with Ernie and I in the same room)

Elaina, the problem is your husband's angry outbursts and abuse, not your lack of commitment or your daughter's behavior.

Dr. Harley would strongly encourage you to protect yourself from such behavior until such time as your husband takes responsibility for it and eliminates it. i.e., a separation. I would tell your husband that you are very ready to commit to a relationship of extraordinary care that does not have abuse and control - i.e., a marriage. Insist that he follow the procedure Dr. Harley lays out to eliminate angry outbursts, and follow the rest of this program, or else let him know that you aren't willing to commit to that kind of existence.

Would you consider emailing Dr. Harley directly on his radio show? mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

He mentioned you wanted a divorce. Have you filed?

There is no need for you to bother to counsel with church members. The problem that needs to be solved immediately is your husband's angry outbursts -- this is something HE needs to do, not you. The only thing you need to do at this point is not tolerate such abuse from him ever again.

He must go through anger management. If he doesn't, then separate.
He must take full responsibility for his anger, and not place any blame on you or your daughter. If he doesn't, then separate.
He must eliminate his angry outbursts completely. If he doesn't, then separate.

In fact, at this point, if he has another AO at all you should separate. Don't tolerate it anymore.

In case you haven't read it yet, read this thread:
What to do with an Angry Husband

It's up to him now to prove that he will do what it takes to keep you.

I don't think we will work out.

He see's disrespect when none is taking place.
EX: Daughter forget to put dish away= he says disrespectful, claims she is doing it on purpose, try's to give her a ten minute lecture and putting her down for her awful ways.

EX: He will be talking to her about whatever... if she even says one thing -in his mind says her tone of voice or mannerism was disrespectful = he goes ballistic and has an AO at her, at me and most of the time we Honestly have no idea what he is talking about.
She has even come up smiling and told him a joke and he has freaked out saying she is being disrespectful. One time she even complimented him (but he says the way she did it was disrespectful to him)
In fact I would say if she speaks at all- disrespectful.
*He has fallen in love with that word from the books*

I don't know how to "discipline" a child for problems that do not exist. ???

I do get onto them for true disrespect, for direct disobedience, for forgetfulness etc. My kids are wonderful and I get compliments on them all the time from everyone who knows them.

If he truly finds her this horrific (I will allow ok, everyone can be different) there is NO HOPE. Her very existence seems to irritate him to no end and she has never been able to do almost anything right in his eyes. I can't fix this.

PS: Thank you both Marcos and Prisca for responding... I just saw that you did. I agree with you. I have not filed.

This is the real problem, here. When a person is having an angry outburst, they are temporarily insane. Their brain simply will not focus on solving the problem - nothing they are thinking of doing or saying will make the problem better.

When a person has learned to relax when they are frustrated, when it is an automatic habit like Dr. Harley describes, their brain will redirect the effort that went into an angry outburst and put it into problem solving. God has given us the ability to literally rewire and modify our own brains! So after he learns to do that, he can talk about the problems he is seeing and negotiate with you about how to solve them.

The problem is not a lack of commitment on your part. The problem is your husband needs to commit to having no angry outbursts, ever, for any reason.

After, not before, he eliminates his AOs. Until he does, the subject of disciplining your daughter is off the table completely.

The problem here is not your daughter.

This just doesn't work, though. No matter how committed you are, you cannot do Ernie's work for him.

Ask your church friends if they will go insist to Ernie that he must commit to no angry outbursts, ever. I guarantee you that if a couple in our church came to me and Prisca for help, we would insist on this commitment.

If you hear back that this is "unrealistic," then you will know that, unfortunately, these people are not going to be any help to you. This is very realistic, Dr. Harley did it himself and has taught many, MANY other people to do it! And it is unrealistic for them to insist on "commitment" from you but not from Ernie.


Stick to your guns on this. Dr. Harley does not counsel husbands and wives together because it leads to fighting which makes massive love bank withdrawals and makes the problem worse! There is no need for them to see the two of you together to help, and there is no need for them to lecture you on "commitment" and give him a pass for his abusive and controlling behavior. They need to stand up and protect you and your daughter!

Yes, I plan to - but I would like to have DW's input on the choice of course. Otherwise I would have already signed up today. Is this something I should just sign up for and do on my own?

I do take responsibility for the pain and discord our marriage is suffering from. I truly believe that recovery is 100% possible and have never believed there is "no hope" for us to work things out and subsequently succeed.


This is very good information. I have started this process.


I can commit to this. I have also personally committed to not saying anything negative at all to SD.

Ernie, we encourage spouses to not post on each others threads. You can read your wife's thread, but please post on your own thread.

Do not put any burden on your wife for you to take control of your anger. This is something YOU need to do. She cannot help you. YES you should be finding an anger management group and signing up today, alone. If you need help, reach out to Dr. Harley. Or markos. Both have been there.

Yes, OK.


NO, I don't place that burden on her at all - - I'm not sure if I said something that would make you think that? I DO know she wanted to have input on the program I selected... so maybe that is what you are referring to: (when I said: "I would like to have DW's input on the choice of course." = that was because she had previously expressed an interest in helping to select a course that she felt would be the most effective) :-)

We stayed up until 2 AM last night talking, it was a really nice event and I feel it was a very productive talk. I did tell her that I do not blame her or the kids, and that I accept all of the blame for our troubles. Very safe conversation and both of us brushed our teeth together, went off to bed (in separate rooms) with a smile and a good attitude. My spirits have been lifted much higher today as a result.

I am just waiting and watching what he does.

He has been reading all about AO's etc but will see how it takes effect.

He has finally told a ton of people in his life about us having problems which he would never do before.

My leaders at church burned their bridge with me bad and oh well, not gonna met with them.

Waiting, watching.....

Just letting ya know that I'm praying for you and your family. Your husband really needs to get control of his anxiety (really that's what is causing his AO if you look at it objectivly) it will take some time to conquer but he can do it. If I can do it.. And marcos can do it... So can your hubby.

I also suggested on your hubbies thread to get a bio feedback device to learn to recognize and defuse anxiety before it takes over his cognitive thinking ability. Its a great tool and Dr.harley reccomends it on his anger management segment.

MNG

So I know that my love bank is empty and so far he hasn't been angry. Great.
I just hate him. I mean I hate him so much I want him to die.
I don't want to be around him. I want him to go far away and never ever see him again.

How on earth can I ever get past this. His AO are a huge issue but there are so many other ones.

I am so stuck, I have no idea what to do. He is being nice. He is not doing any big LB's specifically right now.

Why is it the longer I stay the more I hate myself for staying too.
I still don't feel like anything has changed except now he is reading all about AO and not having them. Great Step 1.

Prica.... did you go through this? How do you live through it?

That is a great step 1. He will also need to eliminate all demands and disrespect on his part. I'm hoping his reading is in the book Love Busters and that he's going through all the material in that book.

Afterward, he will need to build a new marriage with you that makes you (and him) happy - he will need to meet your emotional needs. He will need to carve enough time out of his week to do this.


Yes, she absolutely hated me. This is the way the love bank works. There are "thresholds." If you get above the top threshold, the way you feel toward someone is you are in love with them. Below that is liking them, neutral, dislike, and hatred. It will take a LOT of love bank deposits to move from hatred to in love. And it is his job to do - not your job to change your feelings. Let your feelings be what they are, and give him the information he needs to make deposits so that he can change the way you feel about him.

It will be very helpful if the two of you will listen to this daily show together:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

Yes, I went through that. I hated markos, and it took him quite awhile to make enough love bank deposits so that I could feel different.

I got through it by waiting and watching. I allowed him to make deposits, even though I hated him and didn't see any point. I decided I'd give him the chance. I also kept silently preparing for a more permanent separation or divorce -- he knew that if he ever had an AO again, I was done.

The ball is in your husband's court right now. It's up to him to make lovebank deposits and to eliminate the AOs and DJs so that his deposits stick. The only thing you need to do is to allow him the time to make those deposits (UA).

I assure you that once he has eliminated his AOs and DJs and has made enough deposits so that you love him, the other issues will be much easier to overcome.

Thank you for taking the time to write me back. :-) I do really appreciate it.Hearing that you went through it does help. It can get better as long as he does the work.


He is reading the AM material which does have some good things in it and so far it seems to be working. He is reading other Marriage material some. We have agreed on an older wonderful couple for "accountability" partners on him completing the AM course and is making progress. This is all the good stuff.

For the other:

He won't read Dr. Harley materials. The last I mentioned it, he said now was not the time to push him(Dr H)onto him. He doesn't feel like the forum or the Dr. have helped him that much so far.
He hasn't said he won't listen to the radio station, but he never has so far. I have been pretty much barred from mentioning MB or Dr. Harley.

This part just honestly makes me want to pack my bags and leave. Even with all the work on AM, it isn't enough. I want a partnership and romantic safe relationship. He claims he wants the same but told me there are more than just one mans way to have it.
I seriously don't know how to proceed with this information. He still uses words like POJA and UA etc....

He feels it is disrespectful if I disagree with that opinion.

We also had a bit of a "I need to tell you LB are going on" session that he had with me. He is resentful my life is so easy and I "should" do more around the house and he is mad that I get to spend special time with my kids-for FC.

He has said this before many times. Me homeschooling 3 kids ( I home school a child who is not even my own), having a toddler, a very high needs child, taking care of the house and all the other things I do is nothing to him and "easy".


I am going off on a tangent. Conversations like that just make me hopeless and full of hate. It came after I had just had a horrible and busy day and was emotionally drained, glad it was relaxing/bed time & He came in and felt like he hammered me.

Am I crazy to think that unless he totally adopts MB we are doomed?
I am just honestly not wanting to bother with a relationship that isn't MB focused -chasing my tail.
I want us both to be happy.... this is the only path I see that happening.

MB isn't just one man's way of doing things, though, is it? The important part is that YOU want a marriage with MB principles. Before starting the program, there is an agreement that both spouses sign about eliminating Lovebusters and working on meeting needs. Essentially he's not signing it and choosing his way of doing things. The main question is "is it working?" The answer is apparently "no". He needs to consider your feelings in order for your marriage to work. All he did with that session of telling you that not doing what he thinks you should do is actually a lovebuster was to use the terminology of the program to make a demand and make you feel bad to boot.

We can encourage you to give it more time, but only if he is working on eliminating all the Lovebusters, not just one. And of course, we can encourage you to eliminate yours no matter how he treats you, but don't stay too long with him if he continues his while you've shown you've eliminated yours.

Elaina, the problem with a lot of that other marriage material is they ignore a lot of the important things.

Here's one fantastic example:

Romantic Love: Is it a Realistic Goal for Marriage Therapy?

Most Christian marriage material I know pushes the viewpoint that romantic love fades in marriage after a couple of years and then the goal is to just be faithful. They teach that you aren't supposed to get your needs met by each other and teach coping strategies for that like having independent friends and activities. They cloak it up with religious language like "sacrifice" and "finding your all in God."

The problem is all of this stuff leads to UNHAPPY marriages. And it's not Biblical: the Bible teaches that husbands and wives should please each other.

This is just one of many examples. That's why nowadays I advise people to avoid that other material like the plague. You never know what crazy ideas people have.

Really, trying to achieve happiness by trying to eradicate your needs is Buddhism. It's an eastern religious philosophy. I find it so bizarre that I hear it expressed by Christians so often. Dr. Harley's approach is a Christian approach that acknowledges that God made human beings with needs and that the fulfillment of those needs in marriage is a gift from God which should be accepted with thanksgiving, not denied.

It is disrespectful for your husband to tell you you "should" do anything. You need to insist that he eliminate disrespectful judgments like this - he will have to do so in order to eliminate angry outbursts. Selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts form a continuum of abuse and control: one leads to another.

Dr. Harley actually researched couples that were successful in marriage, and identified the things that were common to all of them. His program is a slimmed-down approach that focuses on just those things. Leaving out any of those things results in an unsuccessful marriage.


Disagreeing and having your own opinion is not disrespectful!

NOT AT ALL. You are fortunate to be figuring this out quickly.

After the way he has abused you I wouldn't put up with his dickering over this for long. He is not the one to be calling the shots to you. Tell him that if he wants to make up to you for his past abuse, following this program is what he will have to do.

Can't we just forgive and forget?

part 2

part 3

He is still trying to control you.

Honesty, if he doesn't start following the MB program, your chances of having a happy, romantic marriage is very slim. To me, it sounds like he's trying to do just enough to appease you and get you to back down.

Listen to your emotions here. They are designed to protect you. This man has abused you, and now instead of giving you what you need he is trying to cut corners.

I wouldn't stay with him, Elaina.

I have been reading more this morning. I know he is going to be upset with me when I see him. To be nice to him -we had UA time last night and he had such an unusual horrible day at work I really tried to help him feel better but because I still feel like this= he says he is scared of me now.

My guess is it scares him that I can still try to be a great partner, give love, try to eliminated everything I can on my side and have a good time with him YET still because my LB is on empty: go through intense emotions about him that aren't good. I think he is saying my actions aren't lining up with my words.

This is not easy for me either! I know that me being mad at him and him feeling the weight of my emotions towards him all the time are not going to give him an opportunity to change and make LB deposits.

This is the part that confuses me somewhat I still am pleasant, giving him a chance and I don't feel good about bringing up things right now. We can have a good time in UA, I can still have compassion over what he is going through but have no clue how to tell him what I feel as I am not sure what his response will be. We aren't doing MB so there are no cool forms to fill out that would let him know what he is doing right (EN) and what is hurting me (LB)

Is both of us posting actually good? Is this similar to the same reasons that Dr. Harley won't counsel folks together??

Not sure exactly what this means - the family should spend 15 hours together. FC is a need that typically the husband meets for the wife.

I make sure to go out One time each week for 2 hours with each child only so they have a chance to really talk to me, have some fun etc (child UA). I consider it FC since it is part of training up children in the way they should go-I do this special time during the day when DH is at work.
He really only told me he was resentful about it but am not sure why.

We don't have FC together as a family often at all. We do it sometimes but there is no plan for it.

Does this make sense?

That sounds like a great thing to do with the kids, but it's not what Dr. Harley means by the emotional need for Family Commitment. Emotional needs are not something we can meet for ourselves - they have to be met by another person.

I can understand your husband's feeling that he wishes he could spend more special time with the children. If you do follow Dr. Harley's suggestion of 15 hours of family time each week, maybe you guys can plan some fun special family events that he will enjoy.

I see what you are saying about it not being FC.... ok- thanks

I am totally on board with MB. I would love to follow the worksheets, plan out FC time, Plan out UA time, use them to let him in on valuable information about the marriage. Read the information so we can have an amazing life together.

I am not going to be the one that constantly pushes for it. Me even mentioning Dr. Harley seems to already make him upset. If we do it, it HAS to be him driving this bus.

I also would like to be honest with him. We just aren't there yet.

Thank you Marcos again for taking time out of your life to help. Also to everyone else trying to give advice and encouragement. I know you all have lives and I am grateful.

Elaina, you are in my thoughts and prayers. I've been in your shoes, and I'm watching and hoping with you.

Be safe, dear. ~ Zhamila

Update. Just busy going through books with him, getting UA and FC scheduled and learning. He gets an A+ for effort this last week.

As I said in another post, he has turned a corner to him being concerned with me and how he is going to help me be safe and in love. That feels great :-)

How much UA are you getting?
Has he had any AOs at all since you last posted?
Is he using the worksheets?

We have 15 hours of UA scheduled but have already exceeded it. Most likely get 20 + hours this week.

No AO's No DJ's and No SD either.

Yes, we are working the worksheets -just haven't started the AO ones yet, but hope to tonight.

*And Prisca... I am glad you came back to help other people like me :-)*

That is very good news Keep that UA up! And keep us posted.

Thank you I only want to help people find what I now have.

Hi Elaina!

I hope that "no news is good news?"

Would love an update on how you all are doing, if you have a chance.

Hi! Haven't been able to get online much... My DD8 has been in the hospital since last Wed and will hopefully get out Monday so Haven't had UA time, just trying to cope.
Her being sick just makes things go at a standstill of sorts but can tell just how weak our marriage is because of it. No AO's and he is trying to be sweet.

I'm sorry your daughter has been in the hospital - hugs.

Glad there are no AOs. What does this mean: "and he is trying to be sweet." - Sounds like you recognize his efforts but they may be missing the mark?

I wonder if you feel ok talking to him about this? Or if you have time set aside for discussions about your relationship.

Thanks for your thoughts. Trying means he is at least driving me and doing things that he thinks might help me. He isn't missing the mark there, but what I really wish I had was a friend.
We can't talk about anything important.(So NO, I can't bring this up)
It is my daughter and he hates her.(She is the one he claims is this crazy girl) He thinks raising my kids is a total sacrifice on his part.

I am holding it together and have no one to turn to. I can't talk to him about my own daughter when it is serious. I can't really talk to him about anything.

I am just feeling so very very lonely.

He will come up and get upset that I am not talking to him but I can't. I just don't trust him with my thoughts, my feelings or emotions. I wish I could cry in his arms.... but I can't.

He can bring me all the food I need and even be sitting with me, holding my hand but nothing makes up for a person I can talk to and share my life with.

Good news is DD came home today
Still caring for her a bit but I am so so so tremendously sad at the state of my marriage. Again, I feel so alone.

The other part of this is that he really has no idea I feel this way. I am not being RH yet as I still find myself in fear and can't just settle those feelings overnight.
I am sure he thinks he did a great job (and it isn't like he was angry or anything... he was affectionate, and tried to help in any way he could) All of that was great.... but anyone could have done those things for me.

My mother, a friend etc. What I don't feel like I have is a husband.

Does this make sense? I know in Harley terms, MY LB is supper low.

Right now I am even debating whether or not to post this as I am afraid of his response to it.

((((Elaina))))

It makes perfect sense. You must feel safe in order to be RH. If in the past you've been honest with him and he has punished you for it, a couple of days without AOs isn't going to change your hesitancy.

I will defer to other posters on advice, because this is too personal for me: I was in an abusive marriage, I worked hard to be RH while respectful, and was punished over and over for it. Even when I wasn't RH - just withdrawn because of fear - I was punished for not being ecstatic with the way he treated me. He would scream at me for being afraid of him. Eventually I spiralled into depression, my physical health suffered and I separated from him. We're divorced now.

I've read your H's posts, where he rants about you hiding your feelings from him. They trigger me, because he isn't wanting to solve the problem - his abuse - he just wants you to 'smile' and accept his treatment. My H did the same thing. He told Steve Harley that he had the EN of "Honesty," and his worksheet literally said he only wanted to hear "nice things." Steve tried to point out that this isn't really honesty, but my H did not listen. (sigh)

Please be safe. If you feel that something you post will make your situation more difficult (this was true for me!), then I urge you to do three things:
1. Instead of posting here, keep a journal in a safe place. Write down all your honest thoughts and feelings and review it as needed to determine your next steps.
2. Consider calling an abuse hotline and hear what they have to say. This may sound radical, but you'll be able to tell a skilled stranger your situation, and they'll be able to tell you whether it's 'abuse' - or not. You'll be VERY relieved if they tell you it is not. And you'll feel very affirmed if they tell you it is, and they can recommend sources of support for your situation.
3. Consider writing to Dr. Harley's radio show. I personally would love to hear his answer to the question: "I don't always feel safe with my husband. What if he punishes me when I tell him how I feel (afraid of him, lonely, withdrawn)? Is it ever ok NOT to be radically honest?"

This is something Steve Harley worked with me on: he said it's VERY IMPORTANT to have a safe place to get help. He said that honesty is very important too, but that safety trumps radical honesty. My H would break into my emails to Steve during our counseling and would punish me for the contents. I felt utterly alone, with literally no safe place to get help. He even broke into my journals and punished me for having my own private feelings and thoughts! None of them were disrespectful: they were simply me saying things like, "I'm lonely." or "I'm afraid." He went ballistic.

Anyway, other posters can come and give different advice - perhaps more in line with MB? I don't know.

You're in my thoughts and prayers, dear.

I had the exact same issue with my abusive xH: everything my kids did irritated him. I worked really hard to order our lives so that they wouldn't be a source of frustration for him. But he would go ape-sh*t over one of them forgetting to hang up a backpack. This from the man whose daughter was doing drugs and sleeping around.

I was careful to never address issues with his daughter - I would discuss it with him and let him take care of it. He was not able to show me and my children the same respect: he insisted on harsh punishments and would explode in anger.

Now that I'm out of it (a VERY difficult decision, because I was 'determined' to make the 2nd marriage work!) I can see that his abusive and controlling behavior prevented the solving of every other problem. And I realized that I didn't want my children to suffer: I may have chosen him, but they certainly did NOT, and my most basic responsibility as their mother was to ensure that I give them a safe home.



But you didn't come here to hear MY story! (sorry!)

In sum, unless your H completely eliminates all demands, disrespect and anger, he is dooming his marriage to failure. I hope he chooses to get on the path - and stay on it.

One last thing: if your H DOES seem safe, consider discussing some of your feelings - respectfully - with him.

See how he does, give him a chance.

If he responds appropriately (i.e. listens non-defensively, helps solve the problem) - GREAT!

If he gets defensive, angry, or blames you...well, you have your answer and should plan to separate. He's pooping in his own nest and you don't need to keep rolling around in it.

I just wanted to give a quick update.

Things have been going up and down-we do get some great UA time in here and there but not 15 hours normally. At least when we are engaged in UA time, it is pleasant and fun.

I just don't want to post here. I don't think it is helpful and all it does is deplete my LB balance. Ernie just goes on and on and on about what I write here. Its not worth the punishment.

He isn't "angry" about it-but would this still be considered an AO? I was thinking he isn't having them any more but he is a Very emotional person.

It stinks as I think all of yall could be a great help to us but I am not willing to do it right now. (Which makes me sad)

I encourage you to make 15 hours of UA time a PRIORITY in life!
Dr Harley regularly says on his Radio Show to build your life around your UA Time!

If you aren't going to be posting I encourage you to listen to Dr Harley's Radio Show daily. You can find the links to it on the main website

Thanks Jedi
I already listen to the radio, have read every book Dr Harley owns, read the forum daily and keep the concepts at the for front of my mind. I am doing what I can do to practice them.

What I wish is that Ernie would like to implement the principles as well. He likes some of them and isn't "against" any of it.... he just won't make time for it.

Focusing more on UA time. Gottcha.

Yes, Elaina - if you are feeling punished for what you write here, then what he is doing is an angry outburst, period.

He needs to move out until he is willing to take his anger problem seriously. Please read my wife's thread "How to deal with an angry husband."

What to do with an angry husband

Hi, Elaina,

I've just come from your husband's thread where I can see that he hasn't been working to understand disrespectful judgments at all. I don't give this much hope unless he starts taking seriously his need to learn to identify and eliminate disrespect on his part.

Here are two posts I made over there, partly addressed to you. I hope you are still reading.



I would contact the moderators immediately and ask for helping making this a safe place for you to post. You need MORE support at this time, not LESS, and so this forum should not be cut off as a source of help for you if possible.

Excellent suggestion, Elaina, and I hope you follow it.

Well, I just got back home. I just finished reading Ernie's posts.

I don't know what to say.

Where does one begin.

Are you okay, Elaina?

I am not sure why he is saying we have a special needs child- yes, she does have different needs but isn't special needs per say to what others think of it.
She is major depressed and hurting herself- which is why see was in the hospital.

She is depressed and taking meds now which are working but it does effect her ability to do well in school and remembering to pick up after herself and she can be disrespectful. She is seeing a doctor and a counselor now etc.

Having Ernie in the house doesn't help as it feels like he hates her and is constantly telling her to get away from him if she asks him a question. There are a large amount of things that he does that I find unacceptable with her and horribly mean. "He got upset that I wrote that before but it is how I feel, how she feels, how my son feels etc".

Second, why is he talking about babysitters. We have two 14 year old boys who live in our house who babysit for us anytime we want really. We just have to make sure that we schedule things so they can still see friends etc. My daughter is not impossible to watch. She is normal and smart in every other way. Our two year old is also easy.

I have no idea about money. I don't even want to discuss it. It is the subject of no return.

I do appreciate everyone talking to him. He is out spending an hour reading the book LB right now.

I'm sorry Elaina. You are right to wonder why he is talking about babysitters, especially if you don't need a babysitter.

Ernie does need to continue to listen to your respectful complaints. And as Markos has said on Ernie's thread and your thread, if you feel that you need to communicate with the moderators, then do it. The forum is here for your support. We are here to listen and help you if we can.

Hang in there for now.

x3

If he says or does anything else again I will contact the moderators. Thank you-I did not even know that was possible.

I'd say go ahead and contact them now and set up a plan.

Elaina7, please contact the moderators about this issue.

Hi all. I have been thinking of a few things - I don't want him to quit posting as it has been this forum that has been able to get through to him.

Two, should I not read his posts? Not comment on what he writes?

This is hard. I so very much want us to work and can see him trying (reading books, etc) but I feel like every step we take is like moving through mud and it has just been so hard.

How does one forget the past? I have a hard time forgetting all the mean actions/words, even when he is nice, my heart believes what he said in those times are actually the truth.

I am an extremely sweet person. I am a strong Christian. I smile a bunch and love to sing. I only weigh a smidgen past 100 pounds... Am Pettit and have a gift of empathy like crazy. Ernie is the only person who has told me I "exaggerate" or lie. I can ask some folks and find out.
It is true that I don't yell or go emotional trying to complain, but I AM a very direct person. " I can't stand stuff getting on the kitchen table, would you be enthusiastic about not putting anything on it? " I then smile as and Ernie will say no problem, yes I agree.
I get frustrated at his then not doing it. If he was honest, he Knows Exactly what I want him to do and not do. There isn't true POJA going on, as he doesn't follow through on agreements.

There are things he will not do -has told me so & they upset me as well. As an example: He called me a controlling prison warden & needy a long time just because I wanted him to tell me where he was and what he was doing.

I don't know how to set up boundaries obviously.I have a giver part of me on crack I don't repay evil for evil: I don't have an AO or call names or demand or guilt etc. I just don't want to be around him then, I can't sleep in the same bed and we continue on as strange room mates.

It just feels like I had to pull teeth just to try to get some attention and care from him. This hurts - I was convinced he hated me and was sorry he married me for most of our marriage- not from direct words, but just the way everything went. I still feel like as I ask for things, he thinks it is soooo hard to be married to me, I'm not worth the effort and I must be a strange women to want that.
He tells me constantly how hard marriage is.

I think he's worth it though. I wouldn't have married him if I didn't. It took So much for me to marry him because of my ex. ( fear of getting into an abusive marriage again/ but my ex loved to torture & it's a miracle I am alive the numerous times he tried to kill me)

He/ our marriage is worth the pain of now, to get to a great place. I can't do this alone though.

So that was just a bunch of rambling thanks for reading.

What is step one for me (other than emailing mods?)
I am here and willing to learn.

Elaina it's pretty clear to me from your husband's thread that he has a huge admiration need - that's also why he hates complaints/criticism like poison. I have a high admiration need, so I get how he is feeling beat up but quite simply he needs to get over it.

It's like telling your bank not to send you any more statements because it makes unpleasant reading!

I am SURE that your softly spoken, respectful way of raising complaints was one of the things that drew him to you during courtship. But now that you're in a marriage he has to actually RESPOND to your respectful complaints. It is normal for complaints to be very common, and for them to originate mainly from the female perspective. He needs to get that and stop treating you like you are some sort of faulty alarm.

He needs to develop the skills to expect a complaint/conflict every hour and to be able to handle them efficiently. Right now his skill level for this is disastrous. He either categorises them as 'She was polite so it's No Big Deal' or 'She's exaggerating/overreacting'.

Do give admiration where you feel it is warranted, such as with the efforts he is making to read materials. Give that well deserved admiration hit. However his constant attempts to avoid complaints can't be tolerated. Stand your ground fairly but firmly. Appeal to his need for admiration by saying it is likely to follow a successfully resolved complaint too. Like how much you would appreciate it/how it would make you feel/how much it meant when he did something similar ..etc

Just an update that he has been reading and listened to a bunch of radio broadcasts this weekend. It did bring up some promising conversation.

We still had unpleasant DJ conversation this weekend as well, which just drains me & the LB like crazy.
There are things that we talked about, some of my LB to him, but he wants me to make first move. I feel stuck.

He says he wants me to be free to write on here, but yesterday when I asked if he needed anything while he was driving to get my DS from his dads, he told me to go on MB forum and say a bunch of nice things about him.
He meant it.
I admit that I don't understand it. I think y'all can help but I have no desire for him to come on here and sing my praises. I don't understand his need for approval from here. I'm looking for accountability and a "way to go" for real and substantial things. Am I missing something?

I'm sorry things are still rough.


This is good. Ernie is showing some effort. Has he read the Love Busters book yet?


Did he realize he was DJ'ing you? Did he stop when you quietly said, "Ouch"?


Wow. I am not sure what to say about this one. Have you tried saying "It bothers me when ___" to see if he understands this? To me, it seems like Ernie is undermining you by telling you to go tell the forum a bunch of nice things about him. (Especially if he isn't being particularly nice, you know what I mean?)

The vets will probably respond in the morning. Hang in there for now.

Him saying he wants you to come on here and say a bunch of nice things about him is probably due to his need for admiration. Dr. Harley says he usually works on that late because it generally needs to be sincere, and sincere admiration comes from your needs being met and no Lovebusters. Ernie stopped writing on the forum, so he can't get the advice that he's not going to get anywhere by demanding admiration from you.

If you write on here a bunch of insincere admiration, it will be dishonesty that will hurt your marriage by hiding your complaints.

Sorta yeah.

You don't have an emotional need for admiration. That's why you wouldn't ask him to do this.

He does. Not having an EN met is a bit like being starved. So it's fine for him to ask for this need, just as it would be OK to ask for affection or some DS help.

But you don't have to if it isn't there or the atmosphere for you to meet that need has not been provided. It's actually his responsibility to get his own needs met by providing the right atmosphere. Just as the person with a DS need has to support the other or the person with a high SF need need to provide romance pre-love making.

If he wants admiration he will have to create the kind of atmosphere where you can best and most easily give it.

I take it telling you to say nice things on here hasn't really worked that angle

Elaina, when he starts talking like that, it's important to end the conversation. Prevent the love bank withdrawals.

He needs to permit you to do this - he should not demand that you participate in a conversation where you feel like he is being disrespectful.

There is a whole chapter on this and plan to achieve it in His Needs, Her Needs!

Thank you for the replies.
He is reading LoveBusters right now. WE aren't doing the worksheets with it though, maybe after he reads it once.

One problem is that many times, I don't realize that he is DJing me until after the convo is over: or I suddenly feel really bad and sick in my stomach. Later, I think and can see that it was DJ's but it is hard in the moment. I will try harder.

I didn't say 'ouch' or anything, just kept on talking but I still feel bad about the conversation. I should talk to him about it, but I feel fear (not physically, but the words/emotions he will have towards me)and am not feeling good enough to try to overcome it.

Ok, thanks for the insight on the admiration need. I had no idea that was such a strong need. When we filled out our EN worksheets he had it lower on the scale. I have more understanding knowing that it is just what he needs emotionally, but I don't and won't do it out of a demand or atmosphere of not wanting to.

He went away after feeling like he was going to be banned and felt like people were telling him to go away. I have no idea if he will post again, but am sure he is reading.

You could work on an agreement to stop the conversation when you begin to not feel right or feel hurt, whether you can give it a name at the time or not.

His feelings aren't the only ones, here, to be considered, and he should be making sure you don't feel fearful of his reaction. That's what he needs to do to keep it safe.


Poppycock.

Based on what was written and when he left, he didn't want to hear that he's got to change.

What's he reading? Your thread where you're advised about what you can do?
That's not going to help him get advice or encouragement to do his part for a mutually fulfilling marriage with you.

I was informed that one person can't save a marriage. You can't save yours by yourself, either. That's what is happening when you focus on only one spouse's feelings most of the time.

I agree with what LL has said in the whole post. This part stands out to me, because I thought this same thing. Ernie has many people that have offered to help. There is no reason for him to give up on his thread. Especially if he wants a great marriage. Actions do speak louder than words.

You should not engage in any conversation that makes you feel bad, even if you don't understand why you feel bad in the moment.

Ernie listen up - that was the wrong response. The RIGHT response was to change your offensive behavior, not run away.

The point is that if you are going to be abusive toward Elaina and not work to fix the problem (argue that it's not such a big problem or is really her fault, etc.), she needs to be protected from you. But the real solution to that is for you to learn to stop abusing her. Not to run away.

Get back here, ASAP.

Elaina, LL and BBf are right - don't fall for this or any other ruse for Ernie doing LESS about his abuse instead of MORE.

Ernie will earn lots of admiration from us when he stops abusing his wife!

If he doesn't fully engage with what needs to be done, you need to be preparing to separate from him, Elaina.

Would it be alright if I gave him a LB worksheet that is more like a one page, this is what it will take to keep me in the marriage?

I don't want him to engage in SD, DJ's or AO.
He just doesn't see or understand when he is engaging in them.
I am not good at knowing its going on till later (but the damage has already been done).
If I tell him later that it happened, he argues with me that I was wrong, or even telling him is a DJ, or he then goes on a rampage telling me what I am doing wrong instead of addressing the issue.

I don't want to do it with disrespect but it is hard for me to know if I really am being disrespectful, or he is just saying that to hurt me as he is upset that I hurt him. (does that make sense-or is thinking this a DJ)

There are also numerous other issues with AH, IB, and DH that are so large I am not sure how to even start to address them. They can't even be brought up until I can get the first 3 under control.
That would include our Financial situation, child discipline, his hoarding outside..etc.

I feel overwhelmed.

Also, I will not separate from him for a chance at reconciliation. If I leave him, we are done. I just know myself and if it really came to that, there is no way I would give him another chance.

This is similar to Dr. Harley's example of your spouse taking your letter and throwing it away, as I see it.

It is a DJ if Ernie tells you are wrong to feel the way you do. And then having an AO about how "wrong" you are is even worse than the initial DJ! (Ernie needs to get back on his own thread for help, but he needs to figure that out for himself.)

Have you tried writing things down in a notebook so that you can remove yourself from the conversation? I think there as a Love-Busters worksheet somewhere about this, but I'm not sure if I can find it.

Elaina,

How is Ernie doing on the DJ's and the AO's? Those need to be GONE for you to feel safe talking with him. Just like you mentioned early in your thread, each love-buster is like hitting you with a verbal 2x4. It seems like Ernie could fly of the handle at any moment you are talking to him, and you never know when. (He's a walking stick of dynamite and you never know if the fuse is already lit!) This probably makes you really hesitant to talk to him.

MelodyLane suggested you do the MB online course/coaching and that Ernie go through Anger Busters, a program that Dr. Harley approves of. Has Ernie completed the Anger Busters program? Are you both doing the MB online course/coaching?

Have you seen how far Ernie has read in the Love Busters book? (Halfway?) It's been months since he was going to read it. Is he making progress on the reading or is he spending 10 minutes a week on reading? If he does spend time reading, can you apply a huge compliment about how you love it when he reads the MB books?

Something else to keep in mind is that if you really aren't being disrespectful to him, but he is claiming that you are, that could be a form of gaslighting. After so long of being in this abusive situation, it becomes more difficult to see which direction things really are. Many of us who get stuck in that situation have a difficult time seeing what is really happening to us, and we start to question ourselves. Without telling us (because Ernie probably still reads your thread), have you thought about how soon you would separate if Ernie does not change his abusive behavior?

Hang in there, Elaina. Many of us are praying for you.

We have tried writing out our complaints-but that ends more disastrous than speaking. I think his letters are cruel and angry where he swears that wasn't his intent. He doesn't respond well at all to my letters- doesn't seem to understand what I am saying, so I gave up writing. It really ends WAY worse than trying to talk.

Thank you for the support. It means a bunch to me!

Elaina, going by what you have said you've raised your complaints and they are either atacked or ignored.

You'll have to set a deadline for how long you'll endure that before separation.

If you don't it will be 20 years and nothing will have changed.

I have seen him do it on his thread too where your complaints are described as some sort of enormous inconvenience. His mindset is constantly set in how to 'attack' or 'block' your complaints. He simply never even considers resolving them.

In such a situation you will have to seriously consider separation and preparing for that.

In the meantime, just keep your side of the street clean. We can only control ourselves and what we will accept from others.

But you can't just give up - this problem has to be solved or your marriage is going to be miserable, probably eventually affecting your physical and emotional health. He has to learn how to receive your complaints without becoming demanding, disrespectful, or angry, and he has to learn to make his own complaints without becoming demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

If he is unwilling to do this or claims that he is unable to do it, then you need to prepare for a separation to protect yourself from him.

Tell him markos said to get his butt back on the board and back into listening to Dr. Harley until he learns how to do this. Actually I hope he's reading and sees it for himself.

This is not something that he can't do. And it's not a case where you can just give up trying. He has to learn to do this or you won't be able to survive like this.

Ernie, listen up. Don't discuss your intent. You need to learn what your wife feels is demanding, disrespectful, or angry, and you have to learn to avoid doing anything that she feels that way about. Regardless of your intent.

If your wife finds it disrespectful for you to say "A," you have to never say "A," regardless of whether you intend it to be disrespectful or not.

If your wife considers it to be an angry outburst when you say "X," you have to never say "X," regardless of whether you intend it to be an angry outburst or not.

Discussing your intent should never happen in response to your wife's complaints. Proving that you didn't intend any harm won't heal the hurt. All it does is make you look like you don't care and don't want to take the trouble to learn.

We are not trying to fix your intent. We are trying to fix your behavior. It's not anybody's place to judge your intent. Keep your intent to yourself, and do the work involved to modify your behavior so that it stops hurting your wife.

Ernie, please go post on your thread and acknowledge that you have read this and intend to do the work involved.

Ernie and Elaina, please read (or re-read) this:
Ouch? No, no, let me explain.

It will be interesting to see how things go tonight. I don't have a lot of time but will address this:

He said he is transparent with money.... If he is in his eyes, not at all in mine.

1. This will be year 3 he has not done taxes so I have no clue how much he makes and it makes me nervous.
2. He has his paycheck stub sent to his work, I don't see them but here and there when I discover one.
3. He did discuss health care things but other 401k, & other stuff deducted at this point I have no say in.
4. He deposits a set amount in our joint that I can't use as it's enough to cover bills.... ALL the rest goes into his secret account that I have Never seen.
And he likes to claim is this tiny amount.... When I have found stubs, it's not small. When I ask he says he spends it on Credit card payments and family stuff. I again have NO say or know what "family stuff" is. Or even the cards.
5. He has 3 credit cards he uses that he has refused to put me on/ close let me see... Know about- have input on- see a trend.
6. We have a cc he gave me for food and gas but was charged up ( he claims I did it all but that's not true) so half the month I have to come up with food money.
7. This is why I keep my child support: he makes me pay for electric with it- all kids things, piano, clothes and now food. I don't know how we would eat etc if I gave him that as well.
8 there is no budget- I have no idea how much debt he has, what he makes, how we will eat etc. it stresses me to no end
9. Boxes of more stuff arrive a few times a week. I have no idea what they are, why or how they are bought. It use to literally be at least one a day.
10. Not to mention medical bills now that I have no idea how to take care of them.

So all that to say: that it not my definition of "transparent".

That is a secret second life

Well, I am sorry but what he is saying is just a lie.
It is such falsehood -Uggg

How are we suppose to proceed when he keeps this up.
This is hopeless.
Thank you for your help but just reading his posts makes me want to flee.

He gave a bunch of lies to cover up yet again the truth about his treatment of me & his hiding finances.

When we first married- for about a year I had no child support, he would only put in 800 a paycheck in our "joint" account -demanding that all bills come out of it but his CC and it was a horrific time. It took him 2 years to finally decide after fight after fight to grace me with 1200.... And boy did he want a ton of praise for that.

He might learn this slowly and painfully over time but he will destroy my heart while doing it. No, he already has.

Can you two do the online program?

I will post this on your thread and on Ernie's thread...

Ernie needs to complete Anger Busters or some other appropriate anger management program. Any love-busting behavior needs to stop immediately. Elaina, do your best to not do any LB's either, okay?

What can you both cut out of your budget to be able to afford the online program with an accountability coach? Can you have a respectful conversation about this ASAP?

"9. Boxes of more stuff arrive a few times a week. I have no idea what they are, why or how they are bought. It use to literally be at least one a day."

Elaina, why have you never opened these boxes?

Where in your home can the contents be put such that you would not know what they are after Ernie opens them? Is there a secret room or something?

This does not make sense to me.

"10. Not to mention medical bills now that I have no idea how to
take care of them."

Ask Ernie to POJA how to take care of them. It is not solely your responsibility. It is a household responsibility.

Really everything needs to be put on the table and agreed upon. Ernie says he's not enthusiastic about all the fast food you're purchasing and you're not enthusiastic about all the online shopping he is doing.

agree to X amount of dollars that each of you is free to spend per month and this is what you'd get for fast food and what he'd get for online shopping.

"Well, I am sorry but what he is saying is just a lie.
It is such falsehood -Uggg"

Elaina, can you be more specific? His perception is that you spent what was in his viewpoint a substantial amount of money after becoming married, and also his recollection is that you caused several overdrafts per month.

#1: Did you cause overdrafts?

#2: What types of things did you spend money on after you were married? Is it possible you both have different ideas of what a substantial amount is....particularly if the money was spent on things he was not used to buying?


The point of my comment is not to rehash old disputes but to understand the disparity of perception.

Ernie's perception is his reality. Your perception is your reality.

You both need to come to an enthusiastic agreement on what your joint reality will be going forward.

I had concerns about his honesty before even reading this Elaina and called him out on his thread. Whether it is conflict avoidance or a SSL is irrelevant - it is dishonest whatever his motive.

I'd give him a chance to truly make the finances joint and transparent so that ALL earning and spending (personal as well as bills) is visible, pre-agreed and signed off by you both.

Any hidden spending or earnings is a locked door. In spite of what Bluebeard told his wife, there is no room for locked doors in marriage.

I did use to open them: I don't know what they were: it was mostly car parts or some kind of other things like that- I'm not a mechanic.
He became Very Very angry about me opening them, so I stopped. I have been asking for the purchases like this to stop from the beginning.

He has a stuff issue. I call it minor hoarding problem: he has filled our 3 car garage, it's attic, bought an old shipping container(that he knew I was NOT happy about him getting) put it by our garage, filled that: now the entire yard is filling up.

I hate it.talk about draining my LB 24/7. He knows it upsets me and makes me even fill ill if I go walk in it. Our city has been out filling motions, so he built a fence so they couldn't see it. Now it's filling past the fence, all over our yard.
He buys the stuff and then just leaves it outside a lot (not always) and never touches it again, or it goes in the huge pile of stuff.

What he means by "overdraft" was that when the $800 didn't cover our 1100 bucks for the mortgage, he had to put "his" money in to cover it. Then there was electric, water, gas etc to cover.
He has told me repeated times that apparently during this time, I had to shop for groceries and he said get basics. I said we don't have many ( it had been weeks since shopping as there was no money) I spent a hundred bucks - apparently that was too much and he has punished me since. I had no idea for years.

His claim of hundreds of dollars baffles me. It just isn't true. I can look at our joint account as well.

His biggest complaint I guess was he thought I was spending to much on food. Not fast food ( that news is new to me ) but paying for us with kids was hard. As I have learned, he believes totally different on what we should eat.

He has demanded that I cook all meals from scratch, not buy anything processed as it's wasteful. He also isn't POJA with us using the oven often. Like he said, the kids want pizza and even if I make from scratch, he is furious that we use the oven as it's wasteful.
I just don't know how to win with this.

At the beginning, my mom came and bought things for the house: he was convinced I paid for it. My mom was great!

He also claims I went nuts on fixing up the house: I wanted it painted which my mom paid for someone to finish as I got pregnant right off the bat. I Was Not spending crazy money/ anything to fix it up. All of it was my mom.

And then our cat got Really sick and I took to the vet. He was happy with that but had to move funds from his account to cover amount and still yelled at me for spending money. It was about $130 bucks but not sure how to fix that.

Again, this is the past, and I really need our today fixed.

"What he means by "overdraft" was that when the $800 didn't cover our 1100 bucks for the mortgage, he had to put "his" money in to cover it. Then there was electric, water, gas etc to cover. "


Overdraft is a word with a very specific meaning. It means items were presented to the bank where there was not enough money in the account to cover it.


"Overdraft" does not mean someone had to move money between accounts to meet their needs. That the person was spending within the household means but performing an administrative task to keep their bank account operating in an orderly fashion. Many households, including mine, do this frequently.


Did your account have a number of "overdrafts" as Ernie stated, or did it not?

"He has demanded that I cook all meals from scratch, not buy anything processed as it's wasteful. He also isn't POJA with us using the oven often. Like he said, the kids want pizza and even if I make from scratch, he is furious that we use the oven as it's wasteful.
I just don't know how to win with this. "


Is this still true today?

He did ask me today if we could start with the POJA, even with finances.

I told him and I will quote my text " PORH: I don't fear getting into it....been wanting to since finding the doc. It just might be to late-I'm not sure I want to continue with you or try. Not sure you will really do it. Trying to decide."

This is honestly where I am at. I really think I am done.

Sunny: not, we never paid the bank overdraft fees. He is meaning moving funds.

Yes, he still wants this food from scratch, but don't use oven....

Well, it appears he has enough material in his garages and such to make a solar oven - like the junior high science project.

Perhaps you could make the pizza dough and construct it, but have him build a solar oven and take charge of baking it in his contraption.

Obviously I meant a little bit of humor in this reply, but the point is when he makes decisions, don't protect him from the consequences of his decision.

So he doesn't want you to use the oven - let him figure out a way to finish the task by himself in the way he wants it finished - don't put yourself into a pretzel just so he can keep making SDs of you.

"Sunny: not, we never paid the bank overdraft fees. He is meaning moving funds."

Hmmm.... "overdraft" is a specific word.

Using that word when there was not actually an overdraft would rise to the level of an untruth, in my assessment.

Hi, I've been reading your thread and just wanted to say that I think that you are spot on. The stuff that you and Ernie have been laying out on the board is the past. Dr. Harley says that yesterday is the past.

If you two can learn to keep ALL love busters out of it, you can start to POJA in a way that you will both feel cared for. It will be much work on both of your parts to deal with the food issues, finances, back yard and garage, etc., but if you BOTH decide to work together to do it as you POJA each and every thing, it can be done.You did not really answer Ernie's question. He asked you if you were willing to attempt a POJA. And you didn't say yes or no. You just kind of left it open ended�it might be too late�if that means no, that you are unwilling to POJA, then you need to say so. Is there anything that he can do so that you will be willing to attempt a POJA? Could you start out with an easier POJA and see how it goes?

If Ernie starts out by first sending his paystubs to your home mail, would you be willing to start working on POJA in regards to finances?

I agree that the past is the past ...to the extent it is not manifesting itself into every day of the present.

My three concerns about that are:

a) Ernie states that a grudge he is holding from the past is driving aspects of his controlling behavior today, a fix of which goes beyond some financial POJA.

b) Ernie and Elaina's perception of the same event are miles apart. For example, causing several overdrafts per month (assertion of wantonly reckless behavior) vs needing to move money from "his" account to "her" account such as when they both agreed the cat needed to see the vet.

c) Ernie's understanding of how he is doing the same behavior he is lovebusted by when she does it. Such as him being lovebusted by seeing junk food purchases or the oven being used or other spending he deems frivolous (per his description) while he spends frivolously on several boxes of unused car parts per week that are now filling up a 3 car garage, its attic, a storage container he bought to hold them and 8" high storage filling up much of the yard.

I disagree that this goes beyond a "POJA fix.". The list you provided include exactly the types of things the policy of joint agreement can fix.

I agree with you, though, that it is a decision to use the POJA, and one doesn't have forever to make that choice, and that today's love bank balance is due to behavior of the past. POJA makes a new pattern of behavior that can essentially make new memories. I am hoping that Ernie can get that ball rolling by taking some actions that show goodwill and willingness to use the POJA.

Take him up on it!



You need to PoJA everything. So that means a menu for the week, how the meals are cooked, what time you eat, who cooks it, if you cook together, will the cooking method generate too much washing up, should you wash up together - everything.

PoJA is more than just a request for things to change, it is a process.

You both need to sit down, create a weekly menu you both like, perhaps do the shopping online or in the store together. In fact grocery shopping together is one of Dr H's favourite ways to get couples to practice PoJA. Nothing goes in the basket without both people approving it.

Even once you've done this initial task it will probably still need tweaks over time. Until you have a diet and routine and budget that works for you both. Shopping and meals have such a huge impact on family time/finances and health that the decisions should involve you both. Of course the entire responsibility should not lay upon just one of you.

I get the impression your responsibilities are separated out too much which has let you get out of touch with other.

I agree. Nothing goes beyond a PoJA fix. PoJA prevents resentment, blame, dishonesty, grudging agreements - it is a catch all ensuring caring.

I know you will feel beat up after the recent slew of lovebusting; but PoJA can resolve this issue if your H is willing.

It is never too late to implement a plan!

I agree with you Sunnytimes. However, practicing POJA in every single aspect of their lives will stop that in its tracks. If they are both committed to never do anything without enthusiastic agreement, then they can become compatible.

I know that it sounds simplistic. It is simple. But it is not simple to do.

No, it doesn't have to go beyond POJA. Not if the two of them are radically honest while they are POJA'ing. No sacrifice. Remain pleasant with no LB'ers . If it is not agreed upon, then it isn't done.

My H and I took radical action and did this as the house of cards came tumbling down around us (and yes he was quite often late for work and/or didn't go to work). IF they want to save their marriage and if they will honestly take their marriage first above everything else in their lives, it can be done.

Perceptions don't really matter with POJA, do they? If they agree that starting this second, they will not do anything without POJA, then technically they don't even need to re-visit the past. As for quite recent stuff�both of them can learn to say "it bothers me when�" and "I would like it if�.".

Agreed. These are definitely issues, and it seems like an uphill battle, but as long as they stop any and all love busters, and as long as they agree to be radically honest and POJA each thing, what would Dr. Harley say about the hoarding and spending habits?

I read Ernie's thread and saw the forum helping him to get rid of LB'ers. I think that the forum could now help them both to learn how to POJA considerately. They've both already worked so hard to get to where they are now (and to get so that Elaina and Ernie both are "safe" in revealing their feelings). I think that they can do this if they are both committed.

Just wanted to check in and let you know that we stayed up till almost 2 last night talking. It went well and Ernie seems to really be on board with jumping in and doing MB.

He has said this before: but it was a good talk so taking him at his word and will see what he does.

I do agree that I believe POJA would fix our problems: but it is going to be really hard.

Here's the thing Elaina. You don�t even need to 'trust' that he will do as he says. You just need him to do it. There's an opportunity for him to do so and if he gets back on his thread he will get daily peer coaching on how-to.

Are you doing it DIY or getting an MB coach?

YAY Elaina, good for you and Ernie!

We will absolutely help you with learning to POJA. Yes it will be really really hard. And really really worth all of the work.

Cross posting to both of you in a very general manner.

1) Minimal - get Love Busters, He Wins, She Wins, and 5 Steps to Romantic Love.

Medium - Get some coaching sessions in addition to the above.

High Gear - Get the Online Program

2) Each of you work on eliminating YOUR OWN Love-busting behaviors.

Each of you work on meeting the other's Emotional needs.

(The 5 steps book includes communication sheets to help you communicate ENs and LBs - but some are rather simple; Don't AO/SD/DJ)

3) Last, but most importantly, start getting 20+ hours of UA time EACH WEEK.

At this point, with both of you in heavy conflict/withdrawal, attempting to tackle POJA is an exercise in futility.

People don't generally want to POJA with people whom they are not in love with.

Tackle UA, complete 1 and 2. Then come back to POJA.

Together When You Are Happiest




Helpful tools to start - Print and Complete;


Emotional Needs

Love Busters

There are more... quite a few more than were available when I first arrived here just under 4 years ago;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi4500_resource.html


So, quit using the forum posters as referees for your passive-aggressive argument, STOP ARGUING, and get down to Marriage Building... shall we?

Just an update. We have been super busy. Doing things that at least we are POJA about.

Yesterday, my DH found the tv remote that had been misplaced. I asked him where he found it, and he told me he wouldn't tell me. No one had obviously put any effort in finding it so I didn't deserve to know. I told him I would really like to know, but again.... And still he refuses to tell me.

I feel so loved and cared for. :-(

It is still situations like these that are huge LB that he just doesn't get.

I truly believe we need to do the online accountability program.
Doing it "on our own" is not going to work fast enough.

Will he agree to that?

Oh nice! A gratuitous lovebuster. That would undo about a weeks worth of lvebank deposits for me personally. Is it his goal to continue to drain your lovebank so that none of his efforts have any effect?

I agree that doing it on your own doesn't seem to be working and that this would be one of the best next steps. The coaching program can help through the process of communicating love busters and help him to understand why this is so offensive and hurtful and how important it is that he STOP doing things like this, at all cost.

You can't survive living like this for much longer, Elena, and it is vital that Ernie understand this and take the problem seriously (i.e., DO SOMETHING about it - STOP doing things that are so disrespectful, demanding, and angry)

Hi Elaina:

Yup, that was an LB on his part. However, watch your reaction... What you said here, "I feel so loved and cared for :-( " is sarcastic. And an LB from you. You have to be able to stop your LB's EVEN IF and EVEN WHEN your H is LB'ing you.

I know how much of a challenge this can be. However, your reaction is a bad habit, which you can learn to stop.

You CAN say, "It hurt me when you said that." Without any negative tone in your voice. It is purely informational.

Ok cat wit... I didn't say that to him. I am so confused about this.

It happened the morning after Valentines where we went out and had a great time.

I was sitting on the couch and he came in with DD3. She wanted to watch something and I said, we don't have the remote.
Ernie told me he had found it.
I said great and smiled, where was it hiding?
Then he told me he wasn't telling me.
I thought he couldn't be serious and said I would really like to know.

He very sternly said that he wasn't going to tell me because obviously no one had really tried to find it as it was out in the open so I didn't deserve to know.

I felt deflated as said your really not going to tell me where you found it? I was sad and soft.
No, I'm not telling you on principle ( in my heart it was a type of AO as it was not said kindly but mean)
Then He sat down to watch the tv with DD3 while I got up and left being crushed.

I am telling this just to show how if I can't ask this without now being told that I was demanding to him- I have no earthly clue how to approach him on anything greater.

I think he didn't mean to hurt me or even understands why this is mean. That just makes it harder and why I would like some help.

Right now today he is saying no on doing the online program.

That says a lot ...

Not only is he saying no to the online program, he has decided he doesn't need any help from here, and I'm just going to take a guess that he still doesn't have his pay stubs sent to your home address. That was one, easy to do act he could have done to start showing goodwill on his part and he didn't do it.

He has given you his answer about what he's going to do about your concerns and complaints. Can you live the rest of your life with his answer?

I couldn't agree more and I find it telling that he chose to behave in an unsafe way after a nice Valentine's evening.

This way you can never know when the punishment is going to arrive and will walk on eggshells more, try harder to please him.

There is a slew of lovebusting and punishment-speak in that speech. He acts like a stern and justified (!) father. No mention of negotiation or treating you like a partner. Just a focus on diagnosing and punishing you.




He is the judge of what you deserve. I've never seen a more controlling DJ.


Failure to RH. Dishonesty.



I'm alarmed at your gaslighted state if you think it is possible to say THIS kindly!!! He sets himself up as the monitor of principles, to justify his own disgraceful and manipulative dishonesty - another huge DJ as he is calling you unprincipled.

Your 3yo witnessed him speaking to you like this? Like dirt?

I would not want this man around children until he had completed anger management and proved himself safer.

Elaina, I would separate. My H went through this a few years ago and I started to do the same - he did change, with a lot of work and admission of his wrongdoing. Ernie does not feel he is doing any wrong, and therefore you need to take steps to protect yourself.

Elaina, if you were to contact a women's refuge they would have no problem identifying your husband as an abuser.

He picks fault; like buying fast food, or not knowing where the remote is, so he can abuse. He never raises these issues cheerfully with the intention of changing something or making a new household plan. He's only interested in the opportunity to insult and abuse. It's part of a nice-nasty-calm cycle that has you walking on egg shells.

He also abuses you economically - withholds money and financial knowledge or the power to make decisions on spending. Most economic abusers say their spouse is unfit to have joint financial power. It's gaslighting.

I think he loves you dearly and is terrified of losing this death grip control over you. He knows that if you had equal financial control or a healthy, un-gaslighted sense of worth that he would be in trouble.

It's like watching a kid suffocate a puppy.

Unlike the women's refuges, who would tell you to RUN, Dr H has recovered marriages like yours.



I think Ernie knows he doesn't have what it takes right now and that the amount he would have to learn looks huge and impossible.

That's why the online programme scares him to death. His cycle of abuse has worked so well and he wouldn't need to be parted from you. If only he could convince you that his death grip is the best thing for you! Why give up a sure thing like the death grip, something so important to him, for something impossible like PoJA, equality and respect?

It isn't impossible though and if you make sensible choices, if you stand firm, he may be inspired to move forward.

For now: Ernie signed us up for the accountability online program.

I am going to put my energy into seeing how all that goes: and won't post on this thread unless he stops or something.

He will have Dr Harley to talk to and an accountability coach so will update from time to time.

Thank you all for your help so far.

Have you been assigned a coach yet, Elaina? Have you started watching the videos together?

Elaina, who is your coach?

It took a long time to get emails, and a lady named Sandy talked to Ernie yesterday, then sent our link to seminar.
I believe she said we have to watch that before coach/ more happens.
We have plans to watch it over next couple days.

Thank you Melody and Brainy for checking in.

yeah!!

That's fantastic Elaina.

Let us know how it goes?

Fascinating to read all this again & see what he is posting.

There will be no list until he can communicate with me Every time without AO, DJ it SD. I told that to Sandy....

What he needs is a constant run down on his LB.

Honestly, his last posts bother me & I find them offensive.

Hi all- I have a POJA question as I still want to really understand how it works totally & still feel like I don't.
I saw Marcos quote this....
Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
markos:

When you make a request, and your wife declines, the next step is to negotiate with her, not to tell her that your feelings have been hurt. Under what conditions would she be willing? If you can't think of any right away, withdraw the request.

By telling your wife that your feelings were hurt, although it's an accurate description of your reaction, it's also a way to make her feel guilty for declining your request. Besides, it should be recognized that if a request is declined, and you feel hurt, you must be under the illusion that if she really cared about you, she would do whatever you request. That's an illusion, not a fact. A caring wife has the right to decline requests. A caring husband accepts it because he realizes that he would have been gaining at her expense if she had agreed.

Again, the step to take after declining your request is to negotiate or withdraw it.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

So can I take something small- what if my DH wants to request that I make all the food for the house from scratch? I can't think of any way currently on earth I would ever be enthusiastic about that.
H now thinks I am failing to negotiate & am hurting/punishing him with my unwillingness to negotiate. (Now- this isn't happening now but is similar to past convo's so it's just an example)

I believe it is a good example of the above.

What if say, my H thought buying hot pockets was a waste of money and tells me that it LB him every tine I buy it as I am buying them against his will so I should stop until we can reach an agreement. I would have to stop buying them until he was enthusiastic? What if he isn't enthusiastic about ANY processed food at all- one by one-

I feel confused.

This is actually a very good example because it starts with a complaint:




So the next thing that happens is that you start to negotiate. You keep coming up with ideas together until either you find one that you are both 100% thrilled with or you take a break and come back to it at another time. Until there is a solution, nothing changes but you keep working on it. You both need to put a genuine effort into finding this solution with is why Radical Honesty is such an integral part of the POJA.

The resolution needs to address your issues (time management) as well as his issues (processed food). I can think of tons of possible solutions that could make you both happy.

You don't have to think of a way you would be enthusiastic! He does. If he wishes you to do something he needs to consider how to make the request appealing.

I.e. he should be asking you how long you are willing to spend cooking or shopping and pitch something realistic to you.

That is not right.

The "do nothing" position means that you stop doing the thing that your H objects to. We talked about this only a week or two ago, on this forum, with regards to POJA. "Do nothing" does not mean "keep doing the thing that causes offence"; it means that it must stop being done, and negotiations start from the position of nothing being done.

Stop buying "hot pockets" or whatever else he objects to. Remember that fight over buying a lettuce in a supermarket? The solution was that nothing when into the shopping trolley unless both spouses were enthusiastic about the purchase.

What are "hot pockets", anyway?

That's right! He needs to make offers to see under what conditions you would be willing to cook all the food in the house from scratch.

For example:

If he let you install a state-of-the-art kitchen, including a bread making machine, pizza oven, wok burner, steam oven, bean-to-cup coffee machine, two dishwashers, and if he paid for a sous chef and a scullery maid to help you, AND,

If he agreed to your giving up your job (if that's what you'd like) so that you could find the time to cook, AND,

As part of the deal you agreed never lifted a finger to do any other housework, and he interviewed and employed a housekeeper, AND

He took you out to dinner several times a week, and took the whole family out at least twice a week,

might you be enthusiastic then?

That's how he needs to be thinking.

Ok- so if I stopped all food he didn't agree with- I couldn't buy anything but ingredients- so we all don't eat till a solution is found?

Even if he did all the above that you mentioned- I would still not be enthusiastic. I don't mind cooking some and under right conditions it's fun- but every meal. And I do mean, from grinding the wheat to final product. I could make bread here & there but everyday- I would never Take a job doing that under Any conditions. I mean even for a million dollars a year salary- and no kids- and nothing else in the entire world to do but cook meals from scratch, never had to clean one dish & enjoy my husband. No way- it would drive me absolutely crazy.

So what happens if obviously I don't want to do this all the time- maybe once a month type thing- yet he isn't enthusiastic about buying any processed food.
I really am curious the answer for my own peace of mind as I can't figure out if I was using POJA yet how we would ever eat.

Perfectly easy to eat without processed food. We buy no processed food other than bread. Because I am lazy and am not interested in cooking, I just buy ingredients that require very little work. We actually eat well but it is simple stuff like chicken, rice and veg. Everyone has a meal preparation task so that I am not stuck in the kitchen feeling sorry for myself.

Lw: processed food- no cereal, no butter, no bread, no cheese, no soups or broths, no beans from a can. Raise & butcher your own meat....

When I say from scratch I mean from culturing your own butter & cheese to making your own cereal and all your own broths, making your own honey, jelly, sour cream- etc.

I know it can be done- I don't personally like hamburger helper etc. I just don't want to live at that level of cooking for always.... Special times sure.

I do try to make some simple dinners but as I said- he isn't happy with that either. I want to buy things from the store that he is not happy about but I am not willing to cook like this.

So this is my confusion- what if I'm not enthusiastic on cooking like this for a lifestyle at all & can't think of what he could do to help me be enthusiastic- so what happens in this case???

This is just hard for me to understand for some reason. I hate cooking- I try to do it well & enjoy the outcome but I really wish I could never cook another thing the rest of my life.
I am sure it's because I have never had the opportunity to POJA because all I see is these impossible situations in my mind !

He actually said he wanted you to raise and butcher the cow, churn the butter and make your own cheese?

Yes, that is his ideal- although he would let a processor butcher the cow. He bought me a pressure cooker to can meat. I don't mind having some food like this or doing it some. Yes, I do make my own butter from milk- and I do make my own cheese-
Again- sometimes for special occasions is fine. Always..... I would hate that.

What did you do when you dated? It confuses me how a situation deteriorates like that. The LB$ is that low that store bread, butter and cheese are enough to make him ill?

I have asthma, and stress is a trigger for me. The fighting in my house was so bad that I had an asthma attack when my then-H brought a Christmas tree home. I don't live under that kind of stress now and last year's tree didn't bother me.

What if you made something for you and your kids, and Ernie bought non-processed stuff for him and your shared child to eat? Maybe he has relatives who sympathize with him who would cook some meals for him?

. He has always bought fast food or other for himself. He is not enthusiastic of my children using his money for this food. He says it is a gigantic LB.
He will not cook often and wouldn't have time normally. He does sometimes buy some things he likes for himself- but it is mostly processed food or fast food!

He has no relatives near at all- over 1000 miles away. I was raised in a house that was process galore! I didn't even really know what vegetables were till a teenager- which is why I started learning to at least cook some as I thought if I ate hamburger helper one more time I would loose it.

So he eats fast food, but says it is a lovebuster if you all do?

I don't really get it. Perhaps this is a parenting issue or concern for what growing children eat maybe? If so, then you must work together on this. However I doubt they get food made from scratch at school!

It really doesn't matter if his 'ideal' is hand-milled wheat and homemade butter - if he isn't willing to do that and he doesn't know anyone who enthusiastically would then I don't see how he is going to get that ideal. It is probably my ideal too, but I don't have access to such things and I cannot ask others to do what I will not!

Have you both completed the domestic responsibilities exercise? This makes it clear that whoever WANTS the task DOES the task. He cannot ask you to do things not even he would be enthusiastic about doing. If the person who really, badly wants doesn't want it enough to do it - then they don't really want it.

PoJA is not about asking your spouse to live-up to some ideal, it is about finding a win-win.

It's true you should not be buying anything he objects to, so is there anything simple you can buy that is unobjectionable? Perhaps a roast chicken, salad vegetables - that kind of thing? Baked potatoes, fresh fish, steamed greens?

Since he cannot PoJA processed food, and you cannot PoJA hours of cooking and baking that leaves him with the option of either finding simple-to-prepare fresh food he can agree to or cooking his ideal himself.

That would be the time for PoJA, when looking at how to make it happen.

I see the issue as having two parts; one part is where she is being asked to stop buying something called 'hot pockets' (no idea what those are either but presume they are something you can buy). I agree that here there is a specific complaint and you stop doing the thing that has caused the offence. Then you POJA the issue.

But there is a second part to this issue; that is where he is asking her to change the way she cooks food for the family. The 'do nothing' here (in my understanding) is that the changes do not take place until the issue of what the changes need to be for both sides to be happy has been POJAed. Does that make sense?

Well, that's not what you said originally. You did not make a distinction between the "stop doing something" part of his request and the "start doing something" part. You didn't make it clear in your first reply that "do nothing" only applied to the "start doing something" part. You simply said that "nothing changes", and that is wrong when a spouse has been asked to stop doing something that bothers the other spouse.

You are right, I had to ponder the issue for a day or two. But it makes more sense now doesn't it? I know that she was asking a hypothetical question but breaking it into two parts makes it easier to see a way through.

Ok- I homeschool the kids except fir my DS14 who s in college. He is talking about every meal- which is a lot.

And I get the he needs to find a solution that I can be happy with but seems to so far stick with only his ideal for us- which he does not want to be bound by. My idea was for him to cook it himself if that I what he wants- but he doesn't have time.

We can't do that domestic responsibilities as he doesn't live here & isn't safe to do it with.

I'm not trying to waste time but the POJA makes sense to me but here. I feel lie I ave no idea how to solve a problem like this....
Does that make sense.

Ok so getting some clarity-
POJA eans not buying anything he objects to- I have hot pockets as an example....
But let's say he objects to a million more things- as I said- no butter, milk, bread, cheese, meat.....
In fact I could only really buy organic vegetables, certain fish, nuts, rice, beans and spices from a store. Those are the only things he doesn't "object" too.
So I'm stuck only buying those things? Really? I am not enthusiastic about that at all!

The second part is he can't force me to cook from scratch - that makes sense unless he could find a way to make me Enthusiastic ..... Got it. That makes sense- thank you!

My confusion lies in the fact that he can object to every food in a way forcing me to only have items in my house that must be cooked from scratch. (This is where I am most confused)

He will not cook from scratch - and if there is no food- he just won't eat, or will have a handful of peanuts.

I mean, this is why I have ended up taking them out- we are hungry as the only things in the house take hours to prepare.

I am new to MB (have been reading the forum and some of Dr. Harley's books). I don't have much PoJA experience yet, but something jumped out at me. Earlier you said this:


Could it be that he does not object to these foods in general but rather he thinks they are a luxury and he does not want money he earned spent on luxuries for your children? If that is the case maybe you can PoJA a "food budget" and he would feel less LB'd over exactly what it is spent on as long as you stay under it. Or PoJA money in general (is it his or both or yours?). Maybe he has an EN of FS and you have an EN of FC. Just some thoughts, I may be way off base, but reading this thread I kept sensing that maybe the food is not what he really objects to - and it was making me crazy! Though I understand this issue is just an example for the PoJA.

Also:


He doesn't live there? Are you currently separated? (Just curious.)

Good luck to you.

At some point that would be changing into a selfish demand. When it gets to the point that you can't buy anything unless it qualifies as something you, Elaina, must cook from scratch, he would be demanding that you do something that you don't want to do.

The "health and safety" provision would kick in here, also. He isn't allowed to force you into a position where you and the kids are hungry.

Elaina, why aren't you asking Dr Harley these very difficult questions? You have access to him on the private forum.

At some point common sense needs to come into play...a spouse and the children can't starve. Agreeing to not do something which then becomes detrimental to yourself or the children would be foolish. Would you not turn on the heat if the house was 40 degrees because H said he objected to turning on the heat? There is a point where wanting the "ideal" turns into making selfish demands that are totally unreasonable...especially when the person isn't even willing to do it himself.

Elaina, I have a thread about difficulty finding PoJA on something similar, my kid had ringworm and then-H wasn't enthusiastic about me taking her to the doctor to get it looked at. Looking back, we were a sinking ship, and I was grasping at PoJA because my part, my "independent behavior", was the only part I could change. But my ship *had already sunk* and there was no sense trying to PoJA when we weren't even at step 1, where negotiations could be made safe.

Hot pockets are "microwaveable turnovers generally containing one or more types of cheese, meat, or vegetables."


Your ship hasn't sunken, but there is no need to worry about PoJAing this food thing, because you wouldn't consider letting him back in the house before negotiating becomes safe. And once negotiating becomes safe, there will be tons of options that don't involve you cooking so many meals from scratch. You will have a number of meals you're enthusiastic about cooking and he will have a number of meals he is enthusiastic about cooking and he'll be enthusiastic with whatever you two decide about the rest of the meals.

I agree. The whole reason you separated is so that you could learn how to negotiate without having to face such difficult daily decisions.

Focus on learning how, not on implementing it immediately. It makes no sense to avoid certain foods when he isn't even there. I would focus on agreeing what would happen if he were to return home. Would he or you cook? Would you cook together? What would a weekly menu look like?

I'd avoid obviously processed food as I imagine that's easier for you to enthusiastically agree to without breaking the health and safety rule of PoJA leaving yourselves hungry. The other stuff he is going to have to help you replace in a realistic solution.