What did you do when you dated? It confuses me how a situation deteriorates like that. The LB$ is that low that store bread, butter and cheese are enough to make him ill?

I have asthma, and stress is a trigger for me. The fighting in my house was so bad that I had an asthma attack when my then-H brought a Christmas tree home. I don't live under that kind of stress now and last year's tree didn't bother me.

What if you made something for you and your kids, and Ernie bought non-processed stuff for him and your shared child to eat? Maybe he has relatives who sympathize with him who would cook some meals for him?

So he eats fast food, but says it is a lovebuster if you all do?

I don't really get it. Perhaps this is a parenting issue or concern for what growing children eat maybe? If so, then you must work together on this. However I doubt they get food made from scratch at school!

It really doesn't matter if his 'ideal' is hand-milled wheat and homemade butter - if he isn't willing to do that and he doesn't know anyone who enthusiastically would then I don't see how he is going to get that ideal. It is probably my ideal too, but I don't have access to such things and I cannot ask others to do what I will not!

Have you both completed the domestic responsibilities exercise? This makes it clear that whoever WANTS the task DOES the task. He cannot ask you to do things not even he would be enthusiastic about doing. If the person who really, badly wants doesn't want it enough to do it - then they don't really want it.

PoJA is not about asking your spouse to live-up to some ideal, it is about finding a win-win.

It's true you should not be buying anything he objects to, so is there anything simple you can buy that is unobjectionable? Perhaps a roast chicken, salad vegetables - that kind of thing? Baked potatoes, fresh fish, steamed greens?

Since he cannot PoJA processed food, and you cannot PoJA hours of cooking and baking that leaves him with the option of either finding simple-to-prepare fresh food he can agree to or cooking his ideal himself.

That would be the time for PoJA, when looking at how to make it happen.

I see the issue as having two parts; one part is where she is being asked to stop buying something called 'hot pockets' (no idea what those are either but presume they are something you can buy). I agree that here there is a specific complaint and you stop doing the thing that has caused the offence. Then you POJA the issue.

But there is a second part to this issue; that is where he is asking her to change the way she cooks food for the family. The 'do nothing' here (in my understanding) is that the changes do not take place until the issue of what the changes need to be for both sides to be happy has been POJAed. Does that make sense?

Well, that's not what you said originally. You did not make a distinction between the "stop doing something" part of his request and the "start doing something" part. You didn't make it clear in your first reply that "do nothing" only applied to the "start doing something" part. You simply said that "nothing changes", and that is wrong when a spouse has been asked to stop doing something that bothers the other spouse.

You are right, I had to ponder the issue for a day or two. But it makes more sense now doesn't it? I know that she was asking a hypothetical question but breaking it into two parts makes it easier to see a way through.

Ok- I homeschool the kids except fir my DS14 who s in college. He is talking about every meal- which is a lot.

And I get the he needs to find a solution that I can be happy with but seems to so far stick with only his ideal for us- which he does not want to be bound by. My idea was for him to cook it himself if that I what he wants- but he doesn't have time.

We can't do that domestic responsibilities as he doesn't live here & isn't safe to do it with.

I'm not trying to waste time but the POJA makes sense to me but here. I feel lie I ave no idea how to solve a problem like this....
Does that make sense.

Ok so getting some clarity-
POJA eans not buying anything he objects to- I have hot pockets as an example....
But let's say he objects to a million more things- as I said- no butter, milk, bread, cheese, meat.....
In fact I could only really buy organic vegetables, certain fish, nuts, rice, beans and spices from a store. Those are the only things he doesn't "object" too.
So I'm stuck only buying those things? Really? I am not enthusiastic about that at all!

The second part is he can't force me to cook from scratch - that makes sense unless he could find a way to make me Enthusiastic ..... Got it. That makes sense- thank you!

My confusion lies in the fact that he can object to every food in a way forcing me to only have items in my house that must be cooked from scratch. (This is where I am most confused)

He will not cook from scratch - and if there is no food- he just won't eat, or will have a handful of peanuts.

I mean, this is why I have ended up taking them out- we are hungry as the only things in the house take hours to prepare.

I am new to MB (have been reading the forum and some of Dr. Harley's books). I don't have much PoJA experience yet, but something jumped out at me. Earlier you said this:


Could it be that he does not object to these foods in general but rather he thinks they are a luxury and he does not want money he earned spent on luxuries for your children? If that is the case maybe you can PoJA a "food budget" and he would feel less LB'd over exactly what it is spent on as long as you stay under it. Or PoJA money in general (is it his or both or yours?). Maybe he has an EN of FS and you have an EN of FC. Just some thoughts, I may be way off base, but reading this thread I kept sensing that maybe the food is not what he really objects to - and it was making me crazy! Though I understand this issue is just an example for the PoJA.

Also:


He doesn't live there? Are you currently separated? (Just curious.)

Good luck to you.

At some point that would be changing into a selfish demand. When it gets to the point that you can't buy anything unless it qualifies as something you, Elaina, must cook from scratch, he would be demanding that you do something that you don't want to do.

The "health and safety" provision would kick in here, also. He isn't allowed to force you into a position where you and the kids are hungry.

Elaina, why aren't you asking Dr Harley these very difficult questions? You have access to him on the private forum.

At some point common sense needs to come into play...a spouse and the children can't starve. Agreeing to not do something which then becomes detrimental to yourself or the children would be foolish. Would you not turn on the heat if the house was 40 degrees because H said he objected to turning on the heat? There is a point where wanting the "ideal" turns into making selfish demands that are totally unreasonable...especially when the person isn't even willing to do it himself.

Elaina, I have a thread about difficulty finding PoJA on something similar, my kid had ringworm and then-H wasn't enthusiastic about me taking her to the doctor to get it looked at. Looking back, we were a sinking ship, and I was grasping at PoJA because my part, my "independent behavior", was the only part I could change. But my ship *had already sunk* and there was no sense trying to PoJA when we weren't even at step 1, where negotiations could be made safe.

Hot pockets are "microwaveable turnovers generally containing one or more types of cheese, meat, or vegetables."


Your ship hasn't sunken, but there is no need to worry about PoJAing this food thing, because you wouldn't consider letting him back in the house before negotiating becomes safe. And once negotiating becomes safe, there will be tons of options that don't involve you cooking so many meals from scratch. You will have a number of meals you're enthusiastic about cooking and he will have a number of meals he is enthusiastic about cooking and he'll be enthusiastic with whatever you two decide about the rest of the meals.

I agree. The whole reason you separated is so that you could learn how to negotiate without having to face such difficult daily decisions.

Focus on learning how, not on implementing it immediately. It makes no sense to avoid certain foods when he isn't even there. I would focus on agreeing what would happen if he were to return home. Would he or you cook? Would you cook together? What would a weekly menu look like?

I'd avoid obviously processed food as I imagine that's easier for you to enthusiastically agree to without breaking the health and safety rule of PoJA leaving yourselves hungry. The other stuff he is going to have to help you replace in a realistic solution.