I couldn't agree more and I find it telling that he chose to behave in an unsafe way after a nice Valentine's evening.

This way you can never know when the punishment is going to arrive and will walk on eggshells more, try harder to please him.

There is a slew of lovebusting and punishment-speak in that speech. He acts like a stern and justified (!) father. No mention of negotiation or treating you like a partner. Just a focus on diagnosing and punishing you.




He is the judge of what you deserve. I've never seen a more controlling DJ.


Failure to RH. Dishonesty.



I'm alarmed at your gaslighted state if you think it is possible to say THIS kindly!!! He sets himself up as the monitor of principles, to justify his own disgraceful and manipulative dishonesty - another huge DJ as he is calling you unprincipled.

Your 3yo witnessed him speaking to you like this? Like dirt?

I would not want this man around children until he had completed anger management and proved himself safer.

Elaina, I would separate. My H went through this a few years ago and I started to do the same - he did change, with a lot of work and admission of his wrongdoing. Ernie does not feel he is doing any wrong, and therefore you need to take steps to protect yourself.

Elaina, if you were to contact a women's refuge they would have no problem identifying your husband as an abuser.

He picks fault; like buying fast food, or not knowing where the remote is, so he can abuse. He never raises these issues cheerfully with the intention of changing something or making a new household plan. He's only interested in the opportunity to insult and abuse. It's part of a nice-nasty-calm cycle that has you walking on egg shells.

He also abuses you economically - withholds money and financial knowledge or the power to make decisions on spending. Most economic abusers say their spouse is unfit to have joint financial power. It's gaslighting.

I think he loves you dearly and is terrified of losing this death grip control over you. He knows that if you had equal financial control or a healthy, un-gaslighted sense of worth that he would be in trouble.

It's like watching a kid suffocate a puppy.

Unlike the women's refuges, who would tell you to RUN, Dr H has recovered marriages like yours.



I think Ernie knows he doesn't have what it takes right now and that the amount he would have to learn looks huge and impossible.

That's why the online programme scares him to death. His cycle of abuse has worked so well and he wouldn't need to be parted from you. If only he could convince you that his death grip is the best thing for you! Why give up a sure thing like the death grip, something so important to him, for something impossible like PoJA, equality and respect?

It isn't impossible though and if you make sensible choices, if you stand firm, he may be inspired to move forward.

For now: Ernie signed us up for the accountability online program.

I am going to put my energy into seeing how all that goes: and won't post on this thread unless he stops or something.

He will have Dr Harley to talk to and an accountability coach so will update from time to time.

Thank you all for your help so far.

Have you been assigned a coach yet, Elaina? Have you started watching the videos together?

Elaina, who is your coach?

It took a long time to get emails, and a lady named Sandy talked to Ernie yesterday, then sent our link to seminar.
I believe she said we have to watch that before coach/ more happens.
We have plans to watch it over next couple days.

Thank you Melody and Brainy for checking in.

yeah!!

That's fantastic Elaina.

Let us know how it goes?

Fascinating to read all this again & see what he is posting.

There will be no list until he can communicate with me Every time without AO, DJ it SD. I told that to Sandy....

What he needs is a constant run down on his LB.

Honestly, his last posts bother me & I find them offensive.

Hi all- I have a POJA question as I still want to really understand how it works totally & still feel like I don't.
I saw Marcos quote this....
Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
markos:

When you make a request, and your wife declines, the next step is to negotiate with her, not to tell her that your feelings have been hurt. Under what conditions would she be willing? If you can't think of any right away, withdraw the request.

By telling your wife that your feelings were hurt, although it's an accurate description of your reaction, it's also a way to make her feel guilty for declining your request. Besides, it should be recognized that if a request is declined, and you feel hurt, you must be under the illusion that if she really cared about you, she would do whatever you request. That's an illusion, not a fact. A caring wife has the right to decline requests. A caring husband accepts it because he realizes that he would have been gaining at her expense if she had agreed.

Again, the step to take after declining your request is to negotiate or withdraw it.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

So can I take something small- what if my DH wants to request that I make all the food for the house from scratch? I can't think of any way currently on earth I would ever be enthusiastic about that.
H now thinks I am failing to negotiate & am hurting/punishing him with my unwillingness to negotiate. (Now- this isn't happening now but is similar to past convo's so it's just an example)

I believe it is a good example of the above.

What if say, my H thought buying hot pockets was a waste of money and tells me that it LB him every tine I buy it as I am buying them against his will so I should stop until we can reach an agreement. I would have to stop buying them until he was enthusiastic? What if he isn't enthusiastic about ANY processed food at all- one by one-

I feel confused.

This is actually a very good example because it starts with a complaint:




So the next thing that happens is that you start to negotiate. You keep coming up with ideas together until either you find one that you are both 100% thrilled with or you take a break and come back to it at another time. Until there is a solution, nothing changes but you keep working on it. You both need to put a genuine effort into finding this solution with is why Radical Honesty is such an integral part of the POJA.

The resolution needs to address your issues (time management) as well as his issues (processed food). I can think of tons of possible solutions that could make you both happy.

You don't have to think of a way you would be enthusiastic! He does. If he wishes you to do something he needs to consider how to make the request appealing.

I.e. he should be asking you how long you are willing to spend cooking or shopping and pitch something realistic to you.

That is not right.

The "do nothing" position means that you stop doing the thing that your H objects to. We talked about this only a week or two ago, on this forum, with regards to POJA. "Do nothing" does not mean "keep doing the thing that causes offence"; it means that it must stop being done, and negotiations start from the position of nothing being done.

Stop buying "hot pockets" or whatever else he objects to. Remember that fight over buying a lettuce in a supermarket? The solution was that nothing when into the shopping trolley unless both spouses were enthusiastic about the purchase.

What are "hot pockets", anyway?

That's right! He needs to make offers to see under what conditions you would be willing to cook all the food in the house from scratch.

For example:

If he let you install a state-of-the-art kitchen, including a bread making machine, pizza oven, wok burner, steam oven, bean-to-cup coffee machine, two dishwashers, and if he paid for a sous chef and a scullery maid to help you, AND,

If he agreed to your giving up your job (if that's what you'd like) so that you could find the time to cook, AND,

As part of the deal you agreed never lifted a finger to do any other housework, and he interviewed and employed a housekeeper, AND

He took you out to dinner several times a week, and took the whole family out at least twice a week,

might you be enthusiastic then?

That's how he needs to be thinking.

Ok- so if I stopped all food he didn't agree with- I couldn't buy anything but ingredients- so we all don't eat till a solution is found?

Even if he did all the above that you mentioned- I would still not be enthusiastic. I don't mind cooking some and under right conditions it's fun- but every meal. And I do mean, from grinding the wheat to final product. I could make bread here & there but everyday- I would never Take a job doing that under Any conditions. I mean even for a million dollars a year salary- and no kids- and nothing else in the entire world to do but cook meals from scratch, never had to clean one dish & enjoy my husband. No way- it would drive me absolutely crazy.

So what happens if obviously I don't want to do this all the time- maybe once a month type thing- yet he isn't enthusiastic about buying any processed food.
I really am curious the answer for my own peace of mind as I can't figure out if I was using POJA yet how we would ever eat.

Perfectly easy to eat without processed food. We buy no processed food other than bread. Because I am lazy and am not interested in cooking, I just buy ingredients that require very little work. We actually eat well but it is simple stuff like chicken, rice and veg. Everyone has a meal preparation task so that I am not stuck in the kitchen feeling sorry for myself.

Lw: processed food- no cereal, no butter, no bread, no cheese, no soups or broths, no beans from a can. Raise & butcher your own meat....

When I say from scratch I mean from culturing your own butter & cheese to making your own cereal and all your own broths, making your own honey, jelly, sour cream- etc.

I know it can be done- I don't personally like hamburger helper etc. I just don't want to live at that level of cooking for always.... Special times sure.

I do try to make some simple dinners but as I said- he isn't happy with that either. I want to buy things from the store that he is not happy about but I am not willing to cook like this.

So this is my confusion- what if I'm not enthusiastic on cooking like this for a lifestyle at all & can't think of what he could do to help me be enthusiastic- so what happens in this case???

This is just hard for me to understand for some reason. I hate cooking- I try to do it well & enjoy the outcome but I really wish I could never cook another thing the rest of my life.
I am sure it's because I have never had the opportunity to POJA because all I see is these impossible situations in my mind !

He actually said he wanted you to raise and butcher the cow, churn the butter and make your own cheese?

Yes, that is his ideal- although he would let a processor butcher the cow. He bought me a pressure cooker to can meat. I don't mind having some food like this or doing it some. Yes, I do make my own butter from milk- and I do make my own cheese-
Again- sometimes for special occasions is fine. Always..... I would hate that.