Your husband is refusing to follow the POJA with you.
I have not read your thread but as a general rule, you can't have a loving fulfilling marriage if the POJA is not followed.

Your husband may be unwilling to follow the POJA.

In such cases, Dr. Harley often encourages spouses to try to get their "reluctant spouses" on board with MB principles.
You may need to try to persuade him to follow MB principles over time but if he continually resists the POJA you may need to separate from him.

Tenacious,

Are you being treated for your depression?

No, I'm not. I've been treated for depression at least six times. The last time, I couldn't tolerate the side effects. I basically used affirmations, prayer, exercise and diet last time.

Are you in any kind of counseling? I have been reading through your thread and one thing caught my attention and I can't seem to shake it. You said that you feel dead inside. I am concerned about you.

The main reason she is depressed is because of the relationship with her husband. As long as he lovebusts her and refuses to follow POJA, she will remain depressed.

No counseling. No one knows what's going on. I do feel dead inside. I'm drawing from an empty well.

I don't know what to do. I can't leave him. I've been a homeschooling mom for 17 years. I didn't finish my degree. I have no idea what I would do. My kids would be devastated if we divorced. It's not an option.

I don't have to be in love with him to live with him. We could live as room-mates possibly, but he's not going without sex for the rest of his life. He must change, so I can fall in love with him.

PS Redheadedlady...I would never hurt myself or my kids, I love them too much. They need their mama.

Your words were my words some years ago. I was a stay-at-home mother for the most part, hadn't completed my degree, lived overseas, and had no real verifiable job skills to sell at a good price to employers.

You don't have to separate right away. First figure out how you can obtain job skills. Can you start working on your degree? Because of my H's first affair and the sad state of marriage, I went back to school at age 38 and at 42 finally earned a Bachelor's degree in Business Management with an emphasis in Finance. It not only gave me valuable job skills but it vastly improved confidence in myself and my abilities in coping with life.

And even if your H totally turns around and becomes the man you have always wanted, it's a really good idea for you to figure out a way to be "untrapped." It sounds like you are staying simply because you have few options. I get that. But it's a tough place to be emotionally.

I am sorry, I did not mean to imply that you would ever harm yourself or your kids. I am new to this site and I should not have said anything.

Tenacious, he seems to EXPECT sex. As though it's your job.

When you said you didn't want to make him mad, he should have held and consoled you and told you to never 'put out '

Isn't it worth looking into what financial support you would get in a a D? Or do you want to be supported in return for sex?

Thank you, I'm considering these options now. I think I could get a two year degree in nursing. I think that would be enough to be self sufficient. As a homeschooler, I am a life long learner.

I took no offense to your comment. No worries!

For 23 years, yes he expected sex. Last November, I realized I was having sex with him out of fear. I put a stop to it. I told him no more "bad" sex. And yes, he was very sorry and consoled me and accepted it. I only do it, if I want to. But, I still struggle with it because I'm not in love with him. I still carry the shame of having sex for years under negative emotions. I was disgusted by my bodies reaction to stimuli. I could perform, but it was gut-wrenching.

I have struggled with feeling like a whore. Staying married, doing my "wifely" duty in exchange for support. I honestly thought that was how marriage worked, until I found MB. Now, I know. My husband knows too. But, he is struggling to be what I need in order to be attracted to him.

I think it would be a sin to divorce. I can't justify divorcing because I'm unhappy.

I'll work on LBs, and POJA everything. Even my working and homeschooling needs to be looked at again.

I need to put myself back on the to-list.

I asked him last week, "If he remembers how he treated me those first few years of marriage?" He said yes, but that was when I had you all to myself. I don't know what that statement means.

Separation doesn't always mean divorce.

But you will divorce because of unhappiness no matter what you believe. Marriage IS happiness. If you remain unhappy the force of your emotions/his emotions will cause a divorce. Or you will end up with a false marriage where you put on a front but no vows are upheld. So you won't be married if that happens, you will be divorced in all but name and just be pretending to be married.

Concluding you have to stay in an unhappy marriage is insane. It's the sacificial sex all over again. Reluctant love and duty is no different, no less abusive, than reluctant sex. But instead of proffering up your body you are giving up your soul.

Somewhere along the line you came to believe you don't matter. You came to believe what matters is you sucking up unhappiness if you have to for the sake of duty and appearances. That is not marriage; it is an insult to true marriage.




He means before the children were born and you became a dutiful wife instead of his partner.

I know you aren't saying it verbally but your actions say a great deal. Just think of the message this stiff upper lip sends him, though:

You: "I am willing to remain married to you no matter how unhappy you make me"

Him: "Gee thanks."

He can't win you, or feel proud of doing so, because you are just a dutiful wife who doesn't need to be won. Your bar is so low you are unwinnable. You're just giving yourself away for free. You are like one of those hook-a-ducks at the fair that even the toddlers can win. For less than two bucks.

I really struggle to understand how a woman could or would make herself so lowly and undervalued. I grew up in a home where my mother passionately loved my father and so, demanded that he passionately loved her. She doesn't stay with him out of duty, she's only interested in a real marriage.

In fact she packed her bags and showed up at my house one time a few years back over just one, rare, incident of IB. After nearly 40 years of a tender, laughter-filled and romantic marriage (You'd hear them laugh every night as they went to bed. Then you would, um, hear other stuff.)

She was outta there over one incident. Even when he rushed over panicked to bring her back she refused to leave and stayed the night because not being considered tenderly and passionately is intolerable to her. We, her children, all backed her up too because we know she does this out of love and to keep her marriage sacred. Her standards are what made my parent's marriage a romantic one. My father knows he has to work hard to win her.

He's proud that he lives up to her high standards and keeps her happy. Is your H proud of how happy he makes you? Is he proud of how he can keep you?

We have made soooo much progress! The LB's are NO LONGER tolerated. We poja everything. So....I emailed the show, at my husband's request, the following questions. He wanted me to ask ya'll too.

We have three dogs ( two of which he wanted) and several cats (all strays that became part of the family, no one really sought out cats) that have been allowed to come in the house in the past; this is not something we poja'ed. My husband doesn't want our cats and dogs in the house. I do. He feels it is a lovebuster when he gets home and the pets are in the house. As an example, he came home this morning from running errands and the pets were in the house and food was on the floor. This made him angry. The way he expressed this anger was with silence. He is attempting to control his anger by leaving the situation and not saying dj's or angry things. We've negotiated to the point where we both agree the pets can be in the house when he isn't at home. We agree there will be no food or water set out within the house for the pets. The problem is....who puts the pets out when my husband comes home. He thinks, I should put them out because I'm the one who wants them inside. I think, he should put them out because he is the one who wants them outside. Also, how do we poja pets on the furniture and bed? I like to snuggle with my pets. My husband thinks it's gross and unsanitary.

My husband isn't enthusiastic about the pets being in the house, IF HE has to put them out or clean up after them. What is the default position here? It's not totally outside pets and it's not totally inside pets either.

The pets do not come into the house at all until you can agree on who puts them out. They do not get on the furniture at all until you can agree on how. Keep brainstorming ideas until a solution is found that makes you both happy. It looks like you have tied yourselves to one of two options, your way or his way. But there are more than just those two ways. It's cliche, but think outside the box. Keep brainstorming.

Thanks, Prisca. We're working hard not to LB and to follow the poja. I heard a radio show a while back where the husband and wife were trying to poja the kitchen trash can. Dr. H said the default position was a third position. In this case, the trash went to the garage, until they could make an enthusiastic decision. I thought, we needed to find a third position; not his or mine. If the pets do not come into the house until we agree, by default, he gets his way. Right? Also, I was thinking about the domestic support list, Dr H have couples do. Make the list of what you want done around the house and you do your own list. I thought, if he wants the pets out he should be the one that does it. I'm not going to ask him to let the pets in when he leaves in the morning. Are these two ideas wrong?

We are brainstorming. He suggested that the kids could be asked to put the pets out. Also, he might be agreeable to my poodle being on my side of the bed, if I bathe her more often. Both of those are on the table.

And, if the pets DO come in the house before some kind of agreement is made, then you are gaining at your husband's expense.... right?

In fact, going back;


It sounds like there was agreement at two dogs, and another dog and several cats have been added without POJA. And then, part of what would add to enthusiastic agreement for your husband was that they were not indoor animals. Then, when he gave some room for negotiation (enthusiatic or otherwise) his condition for them not being inside (to which the default is; not at all) was that they be let out. This was countered with: then HE needs to put them out.

This does not sound like pleasant negotiation with the goal of enthusastic agreement.