I should add that we typically don't start out asking why. When negotiating, we suggest alternatives looking for win-win solutions. It often happens that we'll arrive at a solution, and then, in a sort of post-mortem analysis, we'll ask each other why we feel the way we do simply to try to understand each other better.

When a couple is new to negotiation, and are already having trouble with POJA, it is best to stay away from "Why?" I have already stated the reasons for this. Glad it works for you, KeepLearning, but suggesting it to couples who are struggling is dangerous.

Understood. Thanks for your perspective.

When you say you've been on this board helping couples far longer than I, it sounds like you're assuming I'm trying to help couples on this board. Actually, I'm mostly here to ask questions and learn. If I happen to have an experience or a thought from one of Dr. Harley's writings that I think will help another poster, I'll offer it, but what I'm primarily here for is to better my understanding of his principles.

Okay, people are usually asked to stick to their own thread if that is what they want to do. It can be disruptive to insert yourself into other peoples threads.

Be careful to do it in a way that doesn't make risky suggestions on the threads of other folks seeking help. This post took the thread down a wrong turn that is distracting to the other poster and encourages a course of action that her husband may very well find disrespectful:


We shouldn't need to go on for thirty posts about it here on somebody else's thread. If you have further questions they ought to go on your own thread, rather than debating and disagreeing with the people who are here day in and day out trying to help others learn how to follow this program, sometimes in very volatile situations.

I understand.

TenaciousOne, sorry for the threadjack.

No worries!

We took the first approach. When I offered the solution of pets in the house during the day, he moved off of no pets in the house at all. We handled the conflict well. No fighting. No DJ's.

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What was your final agreement?

Pets... He texts me when he will be home. I put them out before he gets home. My poodle is allowed in the house anytime, but not on our bed. She can get on the couch though. The border collies aren't allowed on anything. No more cats as pets. But, we haven't figured out what to do about the feral cats. Usually, I would spay and neuter them, put flea treatment on them and they live outside. But, I don't think he is enthusiastic about spending money on every cat that shows up. But, I know he isn't enthusiastic about another litter of kittens born under our house either. That issue needs more work.

The Class Reunion.... No agreement yet. He said he is enthusiastic about me going because it only comes around every five years, there's been no problems in the past with me attending them, and no "old flames" will be there.

All it takes is one time. This is why Dr Harley doesn't recommend going to these things without your spouse. It really isn't worth it.

Here's your show.

Radio Clip of TenaciousOne's Show

Here is your question.
Radio Clip of TenaciousOne's question

Now that LB's are under control, we need to ramp up our need meeting. I've been in withdrawal for a long time and didn't know what my EN's were. Now, I think they are IC and non-physical affection. Physical affection is way down the list. My husband's are physical affection and SF.

Dr. H says we should have emotional feelings when our EN's are met. My husband does, I don't. Is that because I'm still below the threshold? My husband is much more romantic than me. He needs romance, I don't.

The other night we got home from football practice at about 8:30, retired to the bedroom around 9. H started kissing me and then asked for specific type of SF. I was sorta annoyed by this. I had to decline because I had bit my tongue and there was a spot that hurt a great deal. H understood, but rolled over to go to sleep. I asked him if he would stay awake and hold hands and watch the game with me. He said yes and asked how long did I want him to stay awake.

This whole sitch left me with a bad feeling, but I can't really explain why? I shouldn't be any more annoyed by him asking for SF than I would something else? Should I? How is it any different than a wife asking for a back rub or conversation? If I asked for a back rub or some talk time, and my H seemed annoyed by it, I might take that as a lovebuster. I don't think he knew I was annoyed. I don't think I lovebusted him.

I want loverbusters to leave and enthusiastic need meeting to begin.

Part of me feels my lack of enthusiasm is because I'm not in love and my husband's weight is affecting my attraction to him.

I can recall twice when I had a positive emotional feeling during SF. If SF is at the bottom of my en list, should I still have a positive emotional feeling during sex? Is it okay, that I don't?

I wouldn't start by "ramping up need meeting," instead remember how UA time is defined, and ramp up your UA time instead.

Both of your Love Banks will fill much quicker, and your most important ENs will be better revealed, after a few months of 25+ hours each week of solid UA time.

So; eliminate love busters, ramp up UA time. Then reevaluate ENs.

I know what you're saying, HHH. We've both expressed our concern over me not being able to meet his SF need. I never have, really. He said, he feels like he is sacrificing in that area.

For it to work it needs to be enjoyable and emotionally bonding. It isn't. I'm afraid my marriage will fail anyway.

I could really use some help here.

I emailed this on the 17th, I haven't heard from the Harley's yet.

"My husband and I have been married for 23 years with three kids. For almost 16 years my husband was addicted to computer games. Lots of neglect and love busters from both of us during that time. He quit playing for good this year. After listening to the radio show, he concluded that his gaming addiction was like an affair. He really gets it now. Through that time, I capitulated, and had unenthusiastic sex. It set up a nasty aversion. I have completed the aversion tasks from the website.

Fast forward to the present, our love busters have been gone for three months. I'm still way below the threshold though. Because I spent so many years in withdrawal, it's been difficult to identify my emotional needs. We think they are intimate conversation and non-physical affection. My husband's needs are physical affection and sex. He is meeting my needs, but I can't meet his.

We understand that a wife needs an emotional bond and the prospect of enjoying the sex. Right now, I have neither. I disassociate during sex so I can perform, I can get aroused and have an orgasm, but immediately after I feel shame, disgust and self-loathing. It takes a day or two to shake that feeling. Also, my husband is about 100 pounds overweight. I don't know how much of this is physical attraction vs aversion or both.

What do we do now? If we take sex off the table, how long would my husband need to wait? If I can't recover, should he leave me?" End of email.

Sex has been off the table since the 16th. My husband wants physical affection. But, I'm not enthusiastic about it. I read in HNHNs that "affection that is sexually motivated, isn't affection, but sex." ALL the affection we have ever had was sexually motivated.

The other night, H and I were out to dinner. I looks at me and says, "Hey let's make out when we get home." I just looked at him. I know he meant, Hey let's go home and cuddled. But, everything in me, heard... Let's go home and have sex. I can't relax around him. I feel like my bed is a trigger, his touch is a trigger.

Do I need to redo the aversion exercises. I'm not meeting my H's needs and it is hurting him.

Yes, start with aversion exercises.
He will need to learn what words to avoid for now.

How many hours of UA are the two of you getting?
You can meet his other needs for now.

Are there any lingering LB around?

Sorry things are so hard!

I'll be interested in what Dr Harley had to say.

No love busters. We probably spend 12 to 15 hours talking, sometimes while sitting close or holding hands, or we'll talk on the phone during his commute home. We go out to dinner and grocery shopping.

He wants to retire to the bedroom at 9 and have physical affection. Lots of kissing and him rubbing my body. I need to re-program my mind to not automatically associate that with sex.

It's been two weeks, I wonder if I should re-send the email?