STOP this.

Nobody here will coddle you and it wouldn't help if we did.

If you want to fight this you need start thinking about what you can do today to turn this around. Forget about the therapist.

All of what you need to become a great husband is here on the site. Read the articles and start listening to the MB Radio Program every day. There's a great article here on why women leave men that would be a good place to start with helping you get in the right mindset.

You've already won your wife over once so you have the inside track on how to do it again. I've heard Dr. Harley tell husbands this so many times.

But you've got to start focusing on action.

I'm sure this has been mentioned already given the situation....have you talked to your doctor about going onto anti depressants while you work to win your wife back?

I've been in your shoes so I do understand it can be very difficult to work or focus on anything. If it's overwhelming I would check into ADs pronto, as being focused will make you better equipped and able to make love bank deposits. You can make a call to schedule an appointment today.

Thank you Axslinger, I appreciate your feedback.

I'll think about the AD, but in a way, i want to feel the pain. It let's me feel how my wife might have felt when I was a jerk of a husband...

I will keep trying, and focus more on her vs. my needs.

thank you

^ That's noble but it also might sabotage your efforts and make you less able to make love bank deposits without committing love busters along the way. Dr. Harley would probably advise you to look into ADs.

Hi penumbra,

I want to send some words of encouragement to you...I am optimistic that things will work out for you, your wife and child if you keep at what you are doing, going over what you did wrong, trying to do the right thing, empathize and feel your wife's pain, do whatever it takes for her to feel loved, cherished, normal and happy again.

Going into the abyss with her is the only way she knows you truly understand what she went through, and that is the only way for you to help her get out. She sees her therapist because she desperately wants to get out of this abyss.

It took years for the marriage to get to the point where your wife decided to shut down the Love Bank for good. You are going to start from negative, so give your wife and yourself time to slowly build it up, bit by bit.

As long as she hasn't found a new love, time is still on your side, but don't take it for granted, give her space, give her time, but whenever you can, be there for her, especially if you can take over some of her time with her therapist.

Actually, if you are learning to change yourself to be a better husband and father, you are the most likely person to help her heal. This is maybe the best thing you can her for now.

You were the one causing her breakdown after all, so logically, you're the one who can make it right.

I know you're angry at the therapist and you nailed it...she doesn't even know you, so why would she judge you to be xyz? But the answer is staring right there back at you, she is seeing you through your wife's eyes.

I understand why your wife would rather divorce and not see you anymore even if you show atonement.

You see, her greatest fear is probably that this turnaround *might* be a temporary trick to "get her back", you showed that you were capable of hurting her, so she knows you're capable of hurting her the same way in future.

The only way is to demonstrate over time that you really have changed. Only your wife knows what you can do to reassure her.

You can try delaying her decision to divorce you, but don't fight it head on, it lends further evidence that you are in control, not her. Do the opposite of what she thinks of you, if she thinks you are controlling, then let her take over the reins for a change. Gently ease her out of thoughts of divorce, put away all the sledgehammer tools.

I just want to say Bravo...you're doing great by humbling yourself and trying to give all you can give for the woman you love.

**EDIT**

Hi penumbra,

One mistake that many men made is that they feel like they should DO SOMETHING. Actually, just listening to your wife get things off her chest IS doing something.

We women do that a lot, get together, have tea, listen to each other, talk our hearts out.

In fact, we pay therapists $$$ just to talk about our thoughts and feelings and to have them reflect back to us.

If she is talking to you, even if it is to rake you over the coals, you're doing something for her.

PS, I don't find your note as bad as what others think, it did come from your heart. If you could be less generic and more specific about the details of those hurtful incidents, that would help.

It is likely that they are seared into her memory, building up an overall idea of what she thinks you are. You might have to go over them one by one with her, to help her get over each and every one of them.

My apologies if my posts come in starts and stops, I missed some of your earlier posts and react as I read them.

Dr Harley described a situation where the husband swang his arm and hit his wife and she screamed in pain, he apologized, but said, well, I didn't mean to hurt you, sorry that you got hurt, and of course he did it again. There's very little to stop such men because they do not feel any of their wives' pain.

Imagine this wasn't a physical blow, but an emotional hit, and your wife is all black and blue from plenty of these over the past year. In your mind, they weren't physical, so they probably didn't count.

The reason why you must get to her abyss with her is to show her you understand what those blows did to her, and if you feel the pain she felt, you are less likely to deliver those blows again.

It isn't to punish you, it's not self-flagellation, it's a deterrent of sorts, to ensure that you develop enough empathy for your wife to the point that when you find yourself starting to hurt her, you can feel her pain and will stop right there, bringing that proverbial raised arm back to your side.

A reminder that the purpose of this forum is to help others with Marriage Builders concepts. It it not a platform for personal philosophies and folk wisdom. If you can help this poster using Marriage Builders concepts, feel free to post. If not, then please refrain from posting. I see a lot of personal wisdom being posted in place of Dr. Harley's concepts and I would ask that you check your posts.

Thank You Gave2Much,

so I talked to my therapist today, and she said she didn't see anything wrong with my wife's therapists' actions. My therapist shares the same practice as my wife's therapist. In addition, my therapist told me to stop writing notes, and cease all activities so my wife can have space to think about how it feels to be without me. Which sounds like a 180. She said that nothing I can do now can change my wife's mind, especially notes and such. My wife needs to figure thing out.

What should I do? in the back of my mind, I don't fully trust my therapist since she shares the same practice as my wife's. In addition, my wife's already made up her mind, and she said she wants a divorce, why would I give her more space? Is she really going to wake up one day, and say, "oh, I'm going to change my mind." Does that actually happen?

Thank you everyone for your help.

If you want to do this according to MB principles, ditch the therapist and disregard her advice. It is not compatible with Marriage Builders.

penubra, if you want to have any hope of saving this, I would not follow the therapists advice. Women can be won back with persistence. I realize Dr Harley is not a "therapist" but he is a clinical psychologist with 40 years experience saving marriages. He would disagree with both of these "therapists" and encourage you to be persistent in wooing your wife back. I seriously doubt either of the therapists have any earthly idea how to save a marriage.

Why not email Dr Harley and get his perspective? The contact information is found here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

He will help you for free.

Please read this and listen to the clips.
Beware of Bad Counselors

No, don't disappear on her, you've got to keep a relationship with her no matter what happens. You, your wife and your child are inextricably bound together, come what may.

Disappearing on her is not good for her...unless you are still hurting her with cutting or sarcastic words and actions? I hope you are not doing that unknowingly? If you are, you've got to find a way to change these horrible traits and habits.

I think writing to her is good, as she likes reading, it's more intimate and you are less likely to write something rash. Don't try to be clever in your notes, just be sincere.

Don't expect your wife to change her mind overnight, it won't happen, it's unrealistic.

Do let her lead the conversations, so she can start talking to you again. Don't push her, let her decide what she needs from you.

**EDIT**

In a marriage, this person should be you....

I don't know how you have been to her, I don't know her threshold for giving, for tolerance, for keeping a Love Bank with you, these are issues you ought to be brutally honest with yourself and work out with her.

I see you meeting her needs at several levels, currently, at the level of helping her heal herself because of marital problems with you, at the level of building Love Deposits, supporting her goals in life, in her career, in her well-being, at the level of helping her care for your child.

I am really optimistic about your marriage, your sincerity comes across as genuine. Having a loving, caring and supportive husband who makes her and her child happy for the long run is the best thing in the world for your wife. Learn to be *that* husband and father.

All the best to you and your wife!

Hi penumbra,

I will be taking a break, so all the best and goodbye everybody.

I have some experience of AO (and violence) in relationships (not my own). It occurs in cycles - first an AO, and then remorse and profuse apologies. The guy cannot seem to break the cycle. It takes only a moment while the guy is out of control for an AO to turn to violence, sometimes with tragic effects. It only gets worse, never better, on its own.

Counselors and even "Shelter" advise the spouse to leave the house, with any children, as soon as she detects the cycle for it can never stop on its own. That is they are advised to leave the premises and separate at the detection of the second AO.

You need to get outside help to break the cycle. You need to be in counseling. The guy will think "it will never happen to me", but in a moment during the AO part of the cycle it takes a moment's slip to commit a crime and ruin your own life.

Get into counseling, at first on your own, and then, hopefully, with your wife. the only way, mate.

This is not really MB advice regarding AOs.

This poster was advised as to what chapters to read in Lovebusters and given Dr Harley's radio clips on AOs (relaxation techniques, acknowledging that you are responsible for your AOs etc, getting anger management if necesasry etc)

He was already in "counseling" and they were talking about his childhood, and not getting to the root of the problems in the M and not addressing any of the things Dr Harley advises for AOs. People have been trying to steer him away from "counseling". I also don't think Dr Harley advises counseling with your spouse when getting treatment for AOs.

Hello All,

Just wanted to check in and let everyone know I am so appreciative of your support. We are still in the woods, and while I don't think I have turned this ship around, it does feel like it's not getting that much worse. My wife still hasn't filed for divorce, so I am on borrowed time. Although she still tells me she doesn't want to be with me, she does acknowledge I have become a good father to our son. We see each other only a couple times a week, when we exchange our son, but last weekend she stayed over because our son had a 104F temperature. We slept in separate rooms, but she showed a very very slight glimmer of affection (she fed me french fries with her hands). Yea, I know, super cheesy, but I can't believe how affected I was by the gesture.

However, this week she wasn't so great to me. She was back to her usual self of demonizing me when I had mentioned how I feel like marriage counselors were bad for marriages. She took offense to the idea since she didn't think her counselor was anything but an angel. She then said how I looked sad and was acting crazy, and to not do that around our son. I was upset about that, and I told her that's not true. I'm not sure why she would say that since I feel hopeful and positive. Perhaps I'm delusional and just don't know it?

Anyhow, this is the hardest thing I have ever done, and I've endured some crazy things (I once took 3 weeks to climb a 24,800 foot mountain, and that was easy in comparison - even though 4 climbers died on that climb!). I find ways to find strength to keep going, but I'd be lying if I said we are going to make it. I don't think I'm strong enough to overcome her obstinance, but i will keep trying until I am served the divorce papers. She tells me I'm purposely trapping her by not agreeing to a mediator, and that I'm forcing her into a legal battle by not agreeing to a divorce; that I am not giving her freedom, and if I do love her, I would go along with the divorce and free her. I don't know what to say to that, but to say that I do love her and my son, and for me to agree to a divorce is like committing suicide. I'm not sure If that was the right thing to say, but that's how I feel.

So many around me is giving me so much emotional support, and I'm so grateful... I never felt so "human" before, as I feel now. Best of luck to all those fighting for their marriage.

Sir,

Don't think you are delusional based solely on your wife's statements.

When your wife asks why you won't agree to divorce, I suggest you tell her that you have a plan to build a romantic marriage with her where all of her needs are met.
Currently, you are telling her you won't agree to divorce because it is like "committing suicide." This will not appeal to her. When a woman is in the state of marital withdrawl, her "Taker" is in control and only cares about herself.
She doesnt care if you will be devastated but may be interested if you tell her and show her that you can meet her Takers demands

I like that, thank you for crafting a better message for me!