All,

Great support forum. Glad I found this place today, but like any knuckle-headed guy, I wished I had done something sooner and knew all the great advice and articles on this website.

Anyhow, wife of 3 years just picked up and left 2 weeks ago. We've had our conflicts, and while she has issues to work out, I've done my apologies and is seeking help to better myself. Getting therapy for my issues, and luckily my therapist is confident they can be overcomed. She said she's seen worse, and I am an eager student.

That said, I am working on myself through therapy, but I really like this "Love Bank" metaphor. It makes total sense to me, especially with all the love busters and making deposits. Sad to say, my years of neglect and all the LBs have brought us where we are now. She's checked out and has moved out with our 2-year old son. I've done all the bare necessities, transferring enough money into her account so she has enough to live for a whole year, making sure the place she found is safe, and to let her know I'm here if she ever needs anything.

I'm seeking advice and support because I intend to fight for our family and do what it takes to make myself attractive to her again, and find ways to make deposits into her Love Bank from afar.

Luckily I've made some "deposits" in the past 2 weeks, so we are still in communication. However, she still mentions divorce from time to time, and anytime she does, it absolutely demoralizes me. If this makes sense, when I met her emotional needs from afar, she sometimes actually responds with nothing or is almost angry. Is it possible my efforts is making her upset because I'm all of a sudden someone that's not what she'd envisioned a few months ago? I think she expected me to be my AO self when she tried to secretly move out (something she was planning for months). Instead, I helped her move, talked to her, cried with her, revealed my fears with her, sympathized with her, and supported her decision for space.

How do I know my LBs are working? I like this metaphor that was also on this site, along the lines of: your efforts are like throwing little pebbles into the pond; you'll only see the ripples at first, but slowly they add up and make an island. Love it.

She's moved no more than a mile away, and we see each other when we switch off with the child. She'll invite me to parent events at our son's preschool, but she is clear she doesn't want time alone with me. We still have keys to each other's cars, so I'd leave little notes and flowers from our garden in her car at work, or her favorite snacks in the trunk. I do little things, just to make sure I'm not coming on too strong. Some times she'll thank me for these little things, so that gives me hope.

I know it takes time, but any advice/suggestions to send LBs from afar is appreciated.

Thank You!

Are either of you having an affair?
Have there ever been police complaints or charges for domestic violence?
How would you describe your angry outbursts?

no, we are not having an affair, or had one to my knowledge.

no on police complaints or charges for domestic violence. I've never hit her, or threaten to hit her, but I do throw things when I'm really upset pillows, boxes, and one time a mouse.

my AOs got pretty bad the last 6 months, where I can recall maybe 4 times where I called her names at the top of my lungs. I can be really loud if I wanted. that probably scared her.

I think my LBs are there, but I believe the primary cause of the separation was due to severe neglect and not meeting her emotional needs.

What issues is your therapy addressing? How is it doing so? What does the therapy consist of? How is your therapist measuring your progress?

Ok. I read your post twice and still have no earthly idea what the problem is. Why did she leave? What happened?

You have "issues?" What is the issue?

I don't claim to know why she separated, but she should have separated for the abusive behavior described in the first 2 paragraphs. You have described yourself as an unsafe person so I agree it was a good idea for her to leave.

Are you attending anger management courses? What does your "therapy" entail?

Here are the issues:

1. intimacy issues: our marriage is sexless, and I don't initiate
2. pornography: I told my therapist I might be an addict, so she'll evaluate me for it. That might explain why our marriage is sexless
3. anger issues: this has gotten worse the past 6 months, I think it's work related as well
4. many limiting beliefs about myself. although I'm fairly successful in my life, i have mental blocks that prevents me from reaching my full potential as a husband and a professional.
5. maybe mommy issues
6. abandonment issues (dad was absent in my life)

yes I believe it's a combination of severe neglect (due in part to the issues I'm working out with my therapist), and my AO behaviors that I've developed in the past 6 months.

The interesting thing is, I put my job on hold for a month because of my marriage, and while I still feel stressed about the separation, I actually feel much more optimistic and calm. I think my job is taking too much of my life and blinded me to what is really important... I probably was taking my work stress home and unleashing it on my family. The past year has been difficult at work because of my recent promotion and additional responsibilities, which I had a hard time handling.

That does explain why your marriage is sexless. You don't need an evaluation, you need to knock it off and remove all access to porn.


The solution to this is to stop getting angry. That is addressed in the first 5 chapters of the book Lovebusters. There is a chapter devoted angry outbursts.


All of this is a distraction from your current problems. That is cute and winsome that you are going to counseling to talk about your mommy "issues" but it is a distraction at a critical time in your marriage.

Instead of wasting valuable time in therapy, I would go to your wife with a plan:

1. stop all angry outbursts and any other love busters using the Marriage Builders program

2. eliminate all pornography

3. create romantic love in your marriage by meeting each others emotional needs and by scheduling 20+ hours per week of undivided attention. This means you commit to 4 4 hour dates per week, meeting the intimate emotional needs of affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment.

THIS plan will save your marriage. Sitting in counseling taking about your mommy and "abandonment" issues will not save your marriage.

Here is a thread with radio clips, etc on how to eliminate angry outbursts: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=165999&Number=2603602#Post2603602

The books you need to turn this around are: Lovebusters, His Needs, Her Needs and the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. I would start with Lovebusters and follow the lessons at the end of each chapter.

Hmmm. Six answers to one question, and no answers to the other four questions.

I didn't mean to dodge those questions, it's just that I've never been to a therapist before and am somewhat trusting she'll be able to take me through my issues and help me work them out. This therapist was recommend to me by my WAW and her therapist.

It's only been my 3rd session, and I felt my only job for now is to be as honest as possible to my therapist so she can setup the proper program for me to do. Perhaps wrong, but I want to go into it without any preconceived notion of what to expect, which is actually really scary to me since I'm the type that would usually want to take matters into my own hands (which hasn't worked thus far, since it didn't do my WAW any good).

thanks!

Yea, I'm with you, I'm not the type to cry about the past and how someone else affected me, and I don't even like the idea of going to a therapist, but I want to keep my mind open at this point. My job is to be as honest as possible to all my therapist's questioning. These are what my therapist said my issues were, so I'm going to trust she knows what she's doing since I obviously don't.

I want to supplement the therapist with ideas to make myself my attractive to my WAW. Any suggestions since she's not open to spending even an hour with me alone, much less 4. I think that's my eventual goal for sure, but for now, she can probably stand 10 minutes with me before making an excuse to leave for something.

Small steps, I know. thanks!

You should trust that this process is a money maker for her, but it won't help your marriage. It is a complete waste of time. The process we are giving you comes from a seasoned clinical psychologist who specializes in saving marriages. Your "therapist" has no idea how to save marriages.



here

here

here

Does your W know about MB? Will she come here and post?

WE are not interested in "small steps" because that will not help your marriage. Your marriage is on the rocks and won't be around long enough while you take "small steps" wasting time talking about your mommy in a therapists office. You are in a critical situation right now where your marriage could go either way. So you don't have time to waste on non-solutions.

You need to have a PLAN to save your marriage and if you don't have that, you won't save your marriage. Its really that simple.

So, do you want to execute a PLAN to save your marriage, or do you want go to "therapy" and discuss your childhood? Take your pick.

Don't get me wrong, I am all about people making a buck so I don't hold it against your "therapist" that she wants to make a buck keeping you coming back to talk about your childhood forever. But not at the expense of your marriage.

Do you know the answer to the remaining questions?

Can you answer me "yes" or "no", please?

I don't believe she does, but I can ask her to join. She seems adamant about being done with this relationship so my guess is she'll be unwilling and wants to just move on.

I'm in agreement, that's why I'm here. I'm onboard with the plan you've outlined, which is to eliminate all LBs, cut off all access to pornography, but I'm hoping for suggestions to convince her to spend more UA time since she's not on board with that. I don't know how to get her want to hang out just the two of us for even 10 unites, much less 4 hours.

thanks!

"No" on the remaining 3 question. I will find those answers the next time I see my therapist

Yea, I'm with you, if it were up to me, I wouldn't have resorted to a therapist. I've never been to one in my 37 years.

However, I thought I'd gain some points since the therapist was someone my WAW wanted me to see. I'll just see it as a stepping stone, but implement other more actionable plans.

I know you said she moved just a couple of miles away. Is she living with anyone or by herself with your DS2?

What are her complaints to you? What has she actually told you?

I would go to her with a PLAN in your hand. Tell her you have a PLAN to make her happy. Start off by telling her that you WILL eliminate all love busters [list them off: angry outbursts, selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, etc] eliminate porn immediately [have accountability program in place, such as installing a key logger on your computer that only she has access to] and meet her needs. Tell her the goal is to create a romantic, passionate marriage. Print this up and give it to her: How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage

Get the 3 books I recommended, Lovebusters, His Needs, Her Needs and the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. Show her the plan you intend to follow.

WHY does she want to get away from you in 10 minutes? Tell me EXACTLY what happens when you are together.

What does your wife expect you to get from a therapist?

Have you ruled out an affair?

This is one of the red flags I see that make me suspect an affair. Why would she be adamant that the marriage is over if you are willing to make changes? Why go to counseling if that is the case?

See, when we have women who arrive in abusive relationships, they never want to leave. We have to put on a full court press to get them to leave. When they just up and leave like your wife, it is usually because of an affair.

I just had a 5 minute meeting with WAW today as we were switching off the child.

I was eager to share with her my plan, and even typed it up in a report folder with pictures, diagrams, tables etc. The minute I started talking about my plan, then presenting to her the report, she immediately said, "I'm so sorry, why do you do this to yourself? It hurts me so much to see you try. Please for me, just don't do this to yourself anymore. I'm already looking for a mediator for the divorce. I wanted to reconcile 6 months ago and you didn't want to (I didn't know this, and for sure didn't feel our marriage was about to fall apart?), and now it's too late. I'm so tired and I have nothing left." She then said, "I don't want this anymore, It's too late." I then asked if there was someone else, and she said it doesn't matter anymore, and I said it does to me because it'll explain a lot of things and at least I can understand and hold onto something to move on. She said it doesn't matter a few times, until she said "yes," but I'm not sure if it was just to get rid of me since I probably looked pretty devastated. I think I said if she can swear to it, but she didn't. So I'm still not sure if there is a OM.

She then handed the report back to me and left me standing by myself.

I have to say, all the courage to fight and make this right left me in a split second as I stood there by myself.

Setback? Or is it over?

I'm sorry to tell you, but she's having an affair. You need to find out his identity.

Can you hire a PI?

Thank you for the quick reply. It's so reassuring someone is here for me, even for one post. Thank You.

I can hire a PI, but what good does it do? I doubt she'll come back after I expose an affair?

God.. I'm such a mess right now...

I'm sorry for your pain, but if you follow the Plan here then you'll know the truth.

And yes you may have not taken care of your marriage, but the affair is all on her. It will give you the truth and at least you'll know what your fighting against and why her love bank has been closed to you. It's because she is having an affair. You can also follow a plan to protect you and your kids.

Can you get into your doctor for some ADs? They will help you be able to think straight.

I also would notify the MODS to have your thread moved to SAA.

And you can protect your kids from being around OM.

call me crazy, or clueless, or even in denial... i just can't see my wife in an affair right now. I think she's just so angry with me that she just doesn't have anymore to give. and she's tired. On top of that, her therapist is probably telling her this is the right thing to do, to leave a sexless, abusive/neglected, marriage...

I'm not a religious man, but I feel like just praying to God to help her find the strength to keep going...

thank you, thank you, thank you, for this board to come to my time of need...

While it is very upsetting, now we know why she wants to separate from you. Everything makes sense now. She has broken up so she can pursue her affair and she blames your bad behavior to throw you off balance.

Do you want to save your marriage? Because you have a chance if you will uncover the facts about her affair. And even if you don't want to save it, you need to find out the truth.

I assure you that she is having an affair. There are too many red flags here. Women don't leave marriages because they are bad. They hang around and try to fix them. Your wife is not doing that. The only explanation is that she is having an affair.

Don't take our word for it. Hire a PI and get the goods. A good PI can get everything you need in 2 days.

You are being gaslighted. What you describe here is the story of every betrayed spouse. The cheating spouse rewrites history and cites endless grievances in order to justify the separation and throw the betrayed spouse off balance.

She is blaming the separation on you when, in truth, she separated to pursue an affair. That is what she will tell people. And after the divorce is filed, she will introduce her OM.

The reason she wants you to go to therapy is not to repair your marriage but so the therapist can help you adjust to the divorce.

Thank You for the quick response. I will go look for a PI now. Any suggestions? just Google?

Also, just putting myself into her shoes, maybe she does believe she tried to save the marriage the past 1 year and deemed that as "enough is enough." I can see that as well. I just did this salvaging thing for a month, and I already feel tired from all the rejections. I can't imagine doing this for 1 year like she has. so I do sympathize with her.

Gaslighting or gas-lighting is a form of mental abuse in which information is twisted or spun, selectively omitted to favor the abuser, or false information is presented with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity. here

my God... i didn't even think of this... i can't believe I've missed so much of this...

I must be stupid because I still can't see my wife as having the affair type... she might be wanting a new relationship after the divorce and is using that as a goal. I don't know, I'm not even sure why i give her the benefit of the doubt anymore...

There is a thread over on Operation Investigate that gives a link to a PI association.


I don't think you can put yourself in her shoes unless you have had an addiction. An affair is an addiction much like alcohol or narcotics. People lie and distort the truth in pursuit of their addiction.

You haven't ever thought about it because you have been very hyper focused on your own bad behavior. When you are focused on your own behavior as the CAUSE of the break up, you aren't looking at anything else.

here

Good read, and here is another working theory. She's not in an affair, but she's seen enough good husbands in our neighborhood to know she can certainly do better, and is willing to bet on that vs. staying with an "old dog" that say he can learn new tricks but who knows?

Let me find my PI and go from there. I almost rather she has an affair so at least I know what to do and expose her. If she in fact isn't in an affair, and that she's doing this purely to bank on an unknown future, then I guess I must have been really that bad in our marriage...

thank you all again.

Here Private Investigators

And also this. Please Explain Gaslighting

You are still in your home, correct?

Men Don't Leave Your Home

yes, that's correct. She moved out because she couldn't stand anything that's associated with me, including the house I bought for her. She left everything that even has a hint of me, our marriage photos, her wedding dress and rings. everything.

Thank you for the link, my heads not in the right place yet to think strategy for her unconfirmed affair.

I also want to say that it's not I doubt your opinions and experience (as well as MelodyLanes's), I just have a lot to process since it never occurred to me my WAW would be having an affair. I also want to keep my mind open just in case she really does just hate me, and that's the only reason she left. Thank you again.

"Good read, and here is another working theory. She's not in an affair, but she's seen enough good husbands in our neighborhood to know she can certainly do better, and is willing to bet on that vs. staying with an "old dog" that say he can learn new tricks but who knows? "

Since we don't work on theories around here, I would strongly suggest you hire a PI and get the facts, Dr Harley works on facts and 40 years experience. I have been here for 14 years and have observed the same thing he has in regards to separation.

"Let me find my PI and go from there. I almost rather she has an affair so at least I know what to do "

Good man!

"I also want to say that it's not I doubt your opinions and experience (as well as MelodyLanes's), I just have a lot to process since it never occurred to me my WAW would be having an affair. I also want to keep my mind open just in case she really does just hate me, and that's the only reason she left. Thank you again."

This is exactly the right approach. Your next steps should be based on facts and evidence.

Yes, an open mind means checking every possibility.

I probably should get some sleep, but I'm reading everything I can on this website. Maybe to keep my mind at how quickly the situation has deteriorated, and how I felt so much hope last week vs. today.

This came across as something that mirrors my situation.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042b_qa.html

My wife is in 100% Taker mode right now. She's always been a Giver, and I abused it by being a Taker.

God, please give us the strength we need...

I think you have a lot of hope! If you will find out if there is an affair. I am not sure why you feel this is hopeless because it does not look hopeless to me. I do believe there are many things going on behind the scenes in your life and once you get them out into the open, your chances of recovery will be much greater.

Thank You MelodyLane, I really appreciate your support, as well as the others on this board.

This morning, I had a chance to go through some of our stuff, and found notes my wife kept, as well as books she's been reading. These notes were left around various parts of the house, all notes of self encouragements, positive affirmations to help her get through the days. Some of these were dated as far back as May 2014. These were her way of crying out for help. In addition, she had books about finding love, inner peace, meditations, etc. Another sign of her needs not being met. How did I miss all this?! They were heartbreaking for me to read, and it brought me to tears for my failure to meet her needs and that she had to resort to writing notes to sooth herself in her times of neglect.

I wish so much I can take all that pain away from her, and to think she suffered all those months of my poor behavior absolutely breaks me. She is so much stronger than I gave her credit for. Here I am, broken and in pieces, yet she endured for so long, and so often with smiles and a positive attitude. I am so ashamed of myself...

You can take partial blame for the sad state of your marriage, but if she is having an affair, it will be because she has poor boundaries around men and made choices over which you had no vote. If she is having an affair, you are the victim here, not her. So please withhold your sympathy until you have the full truth about your life.

Once you rule an affair in or out, we can help you devise a plan that will give you the best chance of recovery.

If she is having an affair, who do you think it would be? Do you have any ideas?

One thing that put my mind at ease after I was punishing myself for things that I neglected in my marriage that I was told was:

"If I Knew Better, I Would Have Done Better"

Take that to heart.

You are only 50% of the marriage. Your wife has/had a responsibility to get her message across to you, her husband,in a manner and method that would achieve positive Love Bank Deposits for both of you.

The MB Program teaches that type of Joint Agreement and Radical Honesty in a manner that does not create hurt feelings and resentments, or keeping a scorecard.

You are Not A Mind Reader!!!

BUT..... IF she is entertaining any affair, or an affair waiting in the wings, then your attempts at making Love Bank Deposits will be outwardly rejected. You continue to do them Anyways.

THIS is critical and you MUST FIND OUT!!!

Get the intel by any means available and then find out what to do next.

LTL

Thank You everyone. I will find ways to gather evidence, but my heart believes she hasn't strayed. And I'm a very skeptical guy too. She was a stay at home mom that spends all her time raising our child. She just recently started work and she works with women.

My confidence ebbs and flows, which isn't typical of me. I feel stronger now, and read one of her favorite books, ***EDIT*** That made me want to write this letter to my wife:

Dear Jane,

I was going through all of our photos this morning, and I came across these notes you wrote. Please see the attached scans since they belong to you.

As I read each of these notes, I realize you were so much stronger than I had ever thought. I spoke shallow of enduring pain, of knowing how to overcome obstacles, and of having grit, as if I knew what they truly meant; I even told you you didn�t have grit. In these notes, I realized you had been living unhappily for about a year, yet, you managed to find the strength to endure all my poor behaviors. Finding the courage to seek independence, and to provide our son with happiness. I crushed your soul so many times, yet, you have risen above all that weight, and pressure and shined through with your brand of happiness and perseverance. I know it must have been painful to suffer my constant control and strict rules, and to have neglected you. There is so much pain and tears there, and it breaks me to know I have been so cruel and insensitive for so long. Yet, you always put on a happy face.

The pain and shame I�m feeling now, I deserve, and I deserve it a hundred fold. Even then, it won�t compare to what you�ve already gone through. I wished for a Time Machine in the past few weeks to undo my mistake, but now I wish for the same Time Machine to undo your pain instead.

Through this, I feel even more determined. You asked me why I am doing this to myself last night, and while I felt demoralized and pained, I can only remind myself of your strength. Like Marianne Williamson said in her book, A Woman�s Worth, �At every moment, a woman makes a choice: between the state of the queen and the state of the slave girl. In our natural state, we are glorious beings. In the world of illusion, we are lost and imprisioned, slaves to our appetites and our will to false power.� You have chosen to be a Queen, and rightfully so, and that husbands can�t help your restore and achieve what you want; that can only come from you. I believe this is your goal and your call to change, as I understand it in the context of this book. If it�s my place, and if you allow me, I want to be a part of your growth, and embrace your strength. I hope through all my poor behaviors, that I did wish for you to be strong and intelligent. I don�t wish for you to be less, or is trying to hold you back from your potential. You, therapists, family, and friends will keep me accountable. If you can change for the better, so can I. Marianne Williamson said �People change. No one is stuck who chooses not to be.� Please note my intentions are pure, and if I stray, let me know. Let my current crisis be my crucible, and I will be a good man. Our son can see us as good examples for his own marriage and future. This I will swear my life on.

Words are easy, actions are truths.


John

I hope you didn't send it. If she's having an affair, it would be entirely inappropriate.

I wish you would stop expending energy denying that she could be having an affair, and writing letters on the basis that she is not, when you really do not know. Why are you so determined to stick to the belief that she is not? Do you think that any of us that married spouses who ended up having affairs, knew that they were very capable of having affairs (as indeed we all are)? Do you think that we suspected it of them when we made our vows? Of course we didn't! And we didn't jump to that conclusion when they DID in fact start having the affair. The spouse who is having an affair does not announce the fact - she lies about it and hides it. She works hard to keep an innocent face, and to act the same as always, when at home.

But there are some things they do, that, looking back, we can see were evidence that an affair had begun, and moving out of her home and being completely finished with the husband is something a unfaithful wife does, when she has someone else waiting in the wings...

...as is admitting that "there is someone else" - which, let's not forget, your wife said to you!

You are not harming anyone or hurting your marriage by hiring a PI and doing as thorough an investigation as possible, so get on with that. However, you WILL harm your marriage if you turn out to be wrong, and you let this affair become ever more entrenched.

Thanks SugarCane, I will talk to a PI on Tuesday since they weren't around yesterday when I knew of the resources.

Assuming she doesn't have a "burn phone," her cellphone records appear clean. I checked all the numbers and there weren't any numbers outside of her girlfriends and mine that were abnormal in frequency. same with her text messages, none were going a specific number I didn't know about. emails looked pretty good too as of 3 days ago based on what I saw on her cellphone. I'm not a PI, but I am a skeptic. What I don't know is when I have the kids for a few hours, if she's out meeting any OM. I check her GPS navigation logs, and looks clean there. She's not very techy, so I can't imagine that she was clearing her electronic footprints.

She's also using my laptop still, and I can remote connect to that. All looks clean.

Could it be with a woman? We have seen many, many affairs with same sex partners.

maybe, but I don't see any trails of communication on cell/email/laptop records. All the people she hangs out with are married moms with kids. She does have a best friend that is single and is dating a man that's separated. Maybe my wife is patterning herself after her since she's single and living the life?

Unless the PI can uncover something, but it's looking pretty slim there is an OW/OM.

I think she's just so fed up with me and is done. I'll defer to the veterans here, but looks like filling up her "love bank" is the only solution here, absent an OW/OM? Using Dr. Harley's 3 stages model, she's Withdrawn, and sometimes I see some slight movement to the Conflict stage (which is a good sign, means she cares). She's also exhibiting Taker actions, which is probably an extreme over-reaction due to years of Giving. So any suggestions to move her away from a Taker and Withdraw is best?

thank you everyone for the support.

The fact she feels sorry for you but is adamant and is yet having you analysed....reeks of some one in an affair. It can happen to anyone.

People who believe that only certain types of people have affairs are actually the most vulnerable. These people are not vigilant around the opposite sex because they trust themselves. Anybody can have an affair. When it happens to the person it is so shocking to that person's conscience that they demonize and attack their spouse in addition to betraying them. If they can convince themselves the affair is a reasonable response to what they now think of as a bad spouse, rather than betrayed spouse, it helps ward off guilt. They rewrite history because they cannot contemplate being a bad person. Much as you cannot contemplate an affair. Which are very commonplace things - 60pc of marriages!

Affairs are vulnerable things though. If it is an affair you can bust it up and heal it. It is not at all hopeless.

Stay vigilant and make the correct diagnosis.

[quote=penumbra]

Unless the PI can uncover something, but it's looking pretty slim there is an OW/OM./quote]

What are you talking about, she has practically admitted it to you!

I'd say there was a slim chance she isn't.

Please put this all aside and stop speculating. Hire the PI and find out for sure. Then you can proceed on that basis.

Men are especially eager to take accountability for 100% of the problems in their marriages because it gives them a false feeling of control. Don't be blinded by that desire. It is very important that you diligently investigate to get the facts. Once you have the facts, we can help you with a plan for recovery.

Has she told you that she loves you? What are her feelings about that?

She gave me the "I Love You, but I'm not in Love with you."

I figured as much. That means she has a new point of comparison.

That means she is IN LOVE with someone and is comparing her feelings for you to those feelings. When people fall out of love, they diligently try to fall back in love. When they are in love with someone new, they don't try.

Yes, I can see how people would want that, to fill the void. I've left the PI a voicemail so hopefully he calls me back after memorial day.

My wife did say one of her female friend's family is perfect in her eyes. Said it many times. Husband is a doctor, making $300K/year, wife is 26, living the dream and not working. So maybe she thinks she can swing that, so she's jumping ship and taking her chances. I can also see my wife leaving me for someone she hasn't even met yet.

That is not how it happens, but nothing is impossible. This is why it is so critical to really investigate and find out what is going on.

Does your wife work? How is she supporting herself?

yes, she just started work at the end of March. She was looking for work since Sep 2014, and it was her ticket out of here. She works with women at an administrative assistant. Her bosses were female too.

In all honesty, I pushed her to find work too, as an additional source of income. Little did I know, she didn't find work because of me, she found it because it was part of her exit plan. I distinctively remember us talking about how she was going to get a job in Sept. 2014 in a very confident fashion, and once that date came and passed, I would call her out on it, and use it as a soft spot in our arguments. She then said, fine, give me till Nov. 2014, and the date came and passed, and I would use that against her. Then Jan. 2015 etc. Very cruel of me.

Should we call you satan incarnate instead?

I know....

I'm determined turn this around and make my family happy and whole again. Please help me!

thank you

Sorry. This always means affair.

Since no obvious communications she sees him in person regularly, probably daily.

Pen, she was joking. You have some things to make up for but your enthusiasm jumps off the page. There is nothing wrong with your marital attitude.

It was a joke! You are taking the self denigration too far, my friend! There is no excuse to have an affair. If she is having an affair, then she only has herself to blame.

Penumbra,

The "I love you but am not in love with you" statement is very very powerful evidence.

You also wrote that She works with women at an administrative assistant. Her bosses were female too. and that your WW considers some other woman "perfect".

Did you check if your WW is emotionally or sexually involved with another woman??? Is there another woman your WW texts, talks to, or is with excessively? Examine your cell phone bills closely.

Gamma

There could easily be a man in her life too and this H would never know. The only affair proofing done here was to decide she is 'not the type' - We've all been there.

Pen - there are many unhappy wives on the verge of leaving who would be thanking god for your enthusiastic and responsive attitude. If there are strangers on the internet who can see clearly that you would do anything to create change - she knows it too.

Yet she has demonized you so badly you take a joke about us calling you Satan Incarnate seriously. Seriously!

If she is STILL going in spite of your offers to do anything she is going to someone else!

That's not the end of your story though.

Thank you for all your support, I realize I need to just pick myself up because you are right, I feel terrible about all my poor deeds, and I couldn't even recognize a joke made with good intentions. I need to laugh a little bit and not be so wound up so tightly.

Indiegirl, thank you for your comment, I�m glad I�m on the right track. I have read about 2000 pages worth of my wife�s� books in the hopes of understanding her better.

She still has access to my credit card and amazon accounts, and it appears she's ordered a book/workshop on how to prepare herself for a new relationship. It's a self-help guide***EDIT***

***EDIT*** it appears my wife is looking for that high of falling in love again. She�s dead set on a fresh start and I�m in her way. It is kind of interesting, or alarming, what this book is essentially saying about falling in love, and the realities of love through time. I�d be curious to hear what you folks think.

Anyhow, you guys were 99% right. She�s looking to be with someone else, and perhaps my wife can be considered being knee-deep in an emotional affair with her idealized man. Which appears to be tougher to fight an ideal/dream vs. a physical OM. At least one has a presence I can attack.

I gave this more thought, you are right... as hard as it is, and as flawed as I am, I am 100% committed to change, yet she still wants me at the curb. Her mom is a big source of support in my efforts, and I am grateful for her. I made a video of us, and all our loving past, and posted on our Facebook page a few days ago (in the hopes of rekindling our lost love). Over 70 of our friends like it, with many comments about how this is a true declaration of love, her friends brought to tears, her friends commenting how her husbands should take notes, and how inspiration it was. Then she deleted it from her page today... It broke my heart...

Oh keep looking! Get that PI on the case. You'll find something easy to beat down.





She's being a teenage girl at the moment. Another typical symptom of the wayward wife.



You can't make any love bank deposits if there is an active affair and her responses make me fear very much that there is. Typically the wayward wife is dismissive and hostile to attempts, she refuses to even enjoy the flattery.

Essentially she behaves as though married to someone else and you are the OM. Offended.

But something like what you have done here, attracting the approval of all WILL resonate with her on some level. But an unexposed affair is like a fantasy - it is idealized love a wayward will do anything to protect.


I will eat my hat if there is not a guy. A real guy.

That link you have there is pure nonsense - psychbabble aimed at people who need to hear just exactly what they want to hear. You're right though. She IS preparing for a new relationship. With someone specific!

I can tell you as someone who got divorced as a result of the most awful abuse (infidelity, financial infidelity and fraud) that I wasn't ordering cute books with vague psychbabble about relationships as I was busy freeing myself from the marriage.

I didn't have it in me to even contemplate a new relationship as I divorced! Never met any genuine divorcee who did. It would have been like running a marathon with a broken leg.

People who jump into relationships straight away upon divorce had them lined up before leaving the marriage.

Ditto Indiegirl & thank you putting it so spot on. Exactly what I am in the midst of going through right now with my WH. Within 1 week of separation he told me he still loved me and would do anything he could to get me back & 15 minutes later he was Private Facebooking another woman to arrange a date. Now he's dating a married woman while I'm strategically finalizing the D. I'm sure a day will come that I might be interested in dating, but I want to heal me and challenge myself through career first.

Pen you have to get the PI, the evidence, expose, then PB that will define your future. I'm not going to lie it's tough getting to the PB as you have already experienced some tough times, but rest assured, PB is heaven sent & you will feel like you've regained a part of yourself that has been lost. Follow the advice of the veteran posters and you will find happiness whatever it may be.

**EDIT**

No ruling out an affair is the first, not a secondary priority.

If there is an affair then nothing that this poster does to reassure his wife will work. I would not advise him to spend months wasting his time when it can be checked out in a few days.

Are you seriously advising someone who has heard ILYBNILWY not to snoop for an affair?

If she were truly abused and fearful, she wouldn't want to leave him. The psychology of an abused wife makes it very difficult for them to leave. We've all tried to persuade abused women to leave their unremorseful husbands and its impossible. They stay even when they are not offering a Plan like this poster is.

When they are adamant about going and deaf to a Plan, it could be that her lovebank has run dry out of neglect (not abuse though) - but it's far more commonly due to an affair.

Would an abused wife's first self help book purchase be finding out about a new better love life? I don't know what her marriage was like, but I lived (as a child) in an abusive marriage. My mom didn't kick my dad out until the abuse looked liked it was going to start coming to me or my sister. She improved her financial situation, did everything she could to firm her own foundation before she finally separated. She didn't have the time or energy to worry about another woman's perfect life or try to find new love until we were safe.

An affair has to be ruled in or out as an affair changes the plan of action. I don't think anyone is saying that he doesn't need for the love buster to stop. If he is having angry outbursts, he needs anger management (something he may want to do irregardless of what his wife is doing) since AO help no one anytime.

Gathering information to know what is really going on will help make the next steps the most effective in trying to save this marriage.

Have you hired a PI?

Yes, and after a week and a half of surveillance, it turns out it's inconclusive if there is an OM. PI put a gps tracking device on her car, and monitored her activities and routes, and she was going to the same places (work, home, and daycare) every day. On the weekends when I have our son, wife goes to the market, home, and that's it.

Should I get another PI? or is it safe to say there is no OM? If there is no OM, what would the veterans suggest I do at this point?

Since I last posted, I have backed off on any types of convincing, persuading, and even the appearance of either. I've been busy working on myself, but do take the opportunity to show her my care and affections in the form of care packages, funny emails/texts, and have gone on 2 walks with the wife and our son, and a positive 20 minute phone conversation. I'm trying to create an environment conducive for love to rekindle. I avoid talking about our past, or our relationship, and I can see my wife enjoying the moments. HOWEVER, she'll go home and think about the past, and she'll become VERY cold again the next day. She'll go through these cycles where she'll purposely reject and threaten divorce, to when we'll joke about our current situation and we'll laugh about it. I have a feeling she's got this image/story of me that she's built up over time, and that's her justification for leaving me; My job is to dispel that image/story through positive and consistent actions. I've worked around the house on all the things she's asked me to do in the past, but I haven't told her i've done them (built her a mediation room, garden, hung pictures, painted some rooms etc). I didn't want to tell her and be construed as me pressuring her.

I recently negotiated with my work to give me flexible hours with opportunity to work from home so I can spend time with my family. They are 110% supportive and are rooting for me. However, when I told my wife this, she got really upset, since I gave up a promotion as a result (which she's right, the "old me" would have taken the promotion, but I know better now. What's the point of more money if I have no family). She said she didn't want to be responsible for me passing up a promotion. Then she threaten to divorce again and hiring lawyers instead of mediation. I told her I cannot control her actions, and I can only control mine, and my action now is to be the best loving husband and father I can be. That's it.

Am I on the right track?

Thank You

I would continue to do your best to meet her needs while showing her your changes. You are doing a great job, btw!! At the same time, stay diligent with your snooping. Its possible she is not having an affair, but it is also possible that a) her OM lives in another city or b) is married like her girlfriends boyfriend and they are being very careful. Do you have access to her phone bill now?

Thank you for the support!

Yes, i have access to her phone bills and laptop. nothing unusual there, and checked all phone numbers. Mom in law also assured me that there isn't anyone else. She said my wife's also very stubborn, and she just needs to soften her heart so she can see the changes i'm willing to make together. I know I am the only one making the effort to save this marriage, and the rejections are wearing on me. I just need to stay positive, and think of the end goal: a reunited, loving family for our child and for each other.

That is exactly the right approach. But I want to assure you that your MIL is not a good source of information about a potential affair. A parent is the LAST PERSON to find out after the betrayed spouse. No one calls up their parent and tells them about their affair unless the parent is corrupt. And in that case, a corrupt parent is going to cover up for her child.

Just keep an open mind and be on the watch. Keep doing what you are doing by making yourself a very attractive option.

If her mother thinks you're a great catch and doing everything right, it's even more likely there is a hidden reason no one knows about.

I think you're doing everything right if she is not in an affair. However it still has some strong symptoms of affair, rather than just withdrawal.

Since the PI found no physical affair, I would ensure you use a keylogger on her devices to rule out emotional or long distance affairs. It's the easiest thing in the world for a woman who stays home a lot to fall into one of these. Cell phone records and cursory glances at email would never pick up, for example, a FB affair with an ex which started as chatting.

If nothing else the keylogger would pick up some more clues as to her state of mind.


Please make sure! Keep doing what you're doing as you do.

I'm keeping on track to be the best husband and father. I've noticed my wife saying this a lot "It's too little, too late."

The good thing is I think she's seeing the positive changes, but I'm not sure how I should take her feelings that it's "too late." Do folks come around from that position? My wife has always been very obstinate. That's why I love her

Many people start from that place, so don't let it bother you one bit! Just stay the course.

Do you have the MB radio app? You will gain an amazing education listening to that evry day. It will give you a new paradigm about marriage. [and its free! :)]

That phrase used to be a Major Trigger for me. No matter what I did, or how caring I was, still continuously trying to win back the affection from my Wife, that was one of her stock phrases, along with ber saying, "It hurts me that I see you trying so hard, But....."

In my case, it was due to her 1st of multiple affairs.

What do you do then?

You just get up each day and keep on trying, doing the best that you know and learn how to.

LTL

Okay, thank you! I didn't know about the radio app, i will listen to it from now on. thanks!

My wife says that as well, "it hurts me to see you try so hard."

If you don't mind, were you able to reconcile with your wife? did she at least give it another shot after all your efforts?

thank you

No we didn't.

She just moved out without any advance notice the the day before our Sons 9th Birthday, then 1 1/2 weeks later, came home for one night and then was gone for good.

In the 1st year, she only visited our Son 5 times and in the following near 2 1/2 years, she has had Zero contact with him.

She quickly broke up with the guy she moved out to be with, but found a new soul mate in a bar a couple of months later.

Affairs and the adjoining addiction robs these former good spouses and parents of their very essence and soul.

LTL

Hi penumbra,

I am not having an affair, never did in my 10+ years of sexless marriage, and like your wife, I tried hard to work on myself, since I can't change others, only myself, right? I tried and tried and tried, read and read and read, gave and gave and gave, and I'm so tired...the terrible thing is realizing that I have accumulated so much hatred for my husband, I have found myself fallen into an emotional abyss.

One of your posts mentioned you cruelly baited her about finding a job and her independence...it made me cringe...OUCH....that reminded me very much of the last straw before I moved out, my husband did the same thing to me. He challenged "For a long time you said you were going to move out, why haven't you?", and that steeled my determination to NEVER look back at my marriage.

That was an awful emotional blow. It's good you realize how cruel that was.

I don't know if your wife is having an affair..if she hasn't, and if she has simply checked out due to years of emotional abandonment and neglect, she might be feeling hopeless about this marriage.

Again, I must emphasize that I have never strayed, nor do I intend to start an affair, and I am writing under the assumption that there is no OM in your life.

If there is an affair, I understand the protocols are completely different.

You are right in that like your wife, I do wonder at times if I can do better, there must be better men out there. This has nothing to do with another real or fantasy man I have met or seen, it stems from a place of self-pity and resentment, and thinking to myself I am not a bad wife/person, don't I deserve better?

If my husband had sent me this letter you wrote years ago, I would have been really touched. If I were your wife, I might be skeptical that you could be transformed into another person, the person who will make me genuinely happy and fulfilled, the person who lifts my spirit and who is my soul mate for life. Yet if my husband were to send me such a letter years ago, affirming a life of Love Deposits, vowing to uphold POJA to the letter, I might have given him another chance at salvaging the marriage, even though at the back of my mind, I remain unconvinced.

She might not want to see you or talk to you, but she might read your letters...she reads and writes, I suspect she would appreciate a heartfelt note.

That FB thing is no-no in my books, it might have seemed to her you're appealing to a supportive public, the court of public opinion, to "prove" how great you are as a husband. She might see it as a self-serving gesture on your part, and nothing to do with paying your dues. If you do anything, it should be for her eyes, her heart and mind only.

She needs to be in complete control, so that it's her decision, her call, whether to give you the time of day. It's her turn now.

It is through your actions and words that your wife's trust will be slowly won back. No matter what happens, commit to do for her that which she had deserved from you throughout your marriage. It would reduce the strength of her grievance at the very least. Be the very best husband you can be. You might win her back, she might feel she can afford the time to let the marriage have a final go.

I don't think you should avoid talking about the past, especially if she is holding onto her memories of all the wrongs you've done. You ought to go through each major episode, delineate the pain you have inflicted on her, apologize sincerely, and describe to her what you would have done differently, and what you would do differently in future in order to make her feel secure, respected, honored and loved. Every one of them. This is the only way to heal her emotionally. Her coldness indicates how these episodes and the memory of her trauma hurts her to this day.

And unless you are sure that she is up to it, or could see the humor intended and not take offense, please do NOT joke or clown around. It could be misconstrued as disrespectful. The hurt is real, do not diminish or reduce its importance to her through levity.

One last thing, don't do it because you want to save the marriage, do it because it's the right thing to do. Do it because you did wrong, because you inflicted untold trauma onto her to the point where she finally found courage, packed up and left, and you should atone for it. Do it because you love her and want her to heal, to help her through her suffering and ease her pain as she walks her lonely walk through her own private hell. Do it because she has been a good wife to you, and you haven't been a good husband to her, and you want to do right by her.

Do it for HER first, no matter how great your desire for reconciliation. Do it so that you can forgive yourself for what you did to derail the marriage. It's about putting her needs first and foremost now, after you have depleted her Love Bank. She tried to encourage herself with these little notes for herself, to get herself through the day. That must have been hard. It's your turn to top it up for her, whether she returns to you.

The only thing I can tell you with any certainty is that the person who inflicts the hurt can never feel the same pain the way the recipient feels.

Your wife said "Too little, too late." So what is it that you are doing too little of? I suspect it's contrition (I see a lot of "non-apologies") and lack of action that genuinely asked for her forgiveness.

All,

Thank you for all the support. Today, I have an update. My PI was able to intercept a text message exchange between my wife and her therapist. Apparently, her therapist is telling my wife that all my efforts to show affection, building a meditation garden, beautifying the house, and trying to fill her love bank is all predictable behaviors of someone who is controlling and terrible. Her therapist is telling my wife to speed up the divorce process so my wife can start anew and be under "God's will and grace." Note that my wife is NOT religious to start with, but in the text exchange, my wife has become totally religious and has used God many times. While I'm not opposed to this at all, what is alarming to me is how much her therapist has control over my wife and changed her. My wife is clearly seeking her therapist's approval, and has clearly see her as a mother figure.

Turns out it's not an OM, it's her therapist! What do I do now?? I mean, this therapist has clearly told my wife that all my efforts are predictable, and to not heed it! It's making the therapist become almost a clairvoyant in my wife's eyes, and pretty much telling my wife, "I told you he'd do that. Don't believe it."

Is this even ethical? Her therapist has never even met me. How can she be so certain that I'm as terrible and demonic as she's making me out to be? What do I do?

Wow, this is really good advice. Thank you, I think you are absolutely correct. I wish I had this advice earlier so I can put this in place. I can do as you've suggested, but my current pressing concern is that my wife's under my therapist's control, and discounting all my efforts...

Terrible..

I'm going to jump in and probably make people angry at me, but here goes:

Don't do those things for the reasons suggested that amount to self-flaggelation for a separation that you seem to have very little information about the motivations behind. Whatever you have done to your wife that wasn't right is in the past and looking at it from the standpoint of paying penance is a recipe for resentment down the road, even if you do win her back. If you make this about keeping score or righting wrongs, eventually your scorecard and hers will not match up.

So, instead:

Whatever destructive behaviors you identified, stop them because you cannot be a good husband to any woman so long as you are practicing them. So whether your wife comes back to you or not, it is very much in your best interest to stop them since they are destructive.

What positive behaviors you found that were lacking (surely part of your efforts to win her back), do these things because they are habits that will make you a good husband to any woman if you practice them. These are in your best interest to continue and improve on in any case.

And certainly all of that is required to win her back if you can (which really, this is all Plan A stuff anyways...not much different than if there's an affair, other than exposure which will be next up if you/your PI finds something). But take an approach that builds your confidence, not something where you're mentally raking yourself over the coals repeatedly. This is a hard race to run and you need to be/appear strong.

Also, the presence of a therapist on her side hints at an affair. It would not be the first WW I've seen on here who gets a shrink to try and help them sort out the moral carnage caused by an affair.

I know you're already looking into that, but I wanted to add that.

You're right, what her therapist is doing isn't ethical but her therapist's job isn't to save your marriage, it's to make her clients happy.

Hi penumbra,

If you make these efforts, then I'm really happy for you and for your wife and child, whether they lead to reconciliation, because they will start to right some wrongs and bring balance back to all 3 of you.

Here's what you might not want to hear...her therapist may be wrong but she may be right.

You did all the predictable little things my H has done, bought some flowers, bought my favorite ice cream, etc. You did the meditation room, etc., so you really tried...but these are still *your* idea of what you think your wife needs. In that sense, you still haven't asked her what *she* needs from you in order to heal. Ironically, maybe her therapist knows...

You are way ahead of my H though, in that it has slowly dawned on you the extent of the damage you caused.

I don't know your wife and her threshold for forgiveness, but here's my take on my husband's efforts...too little, too late. He did the emotional equivalence of hacking at me with an axe over and over, for years, I left my marriage emotionally because of that.

I didn't leave because he didn't buy me ice cream or flowers.

I find the ice cream and flowers pathetic as it seems to be he still doesn't "get it", and also at the back of my mind, I am asking "My husband thinks I left because he didn't buy me flowers, really??? Does he think I'm such a small-minded, petty woman leaving a marriage because he did not buy me gifts? A wife who is incapable of giving? He still doesn't understand what he did to me."

This is my own train of thought, so I can't speak for your wife, but showing you a possible reason and perspective why your little efforts might have failed.

How do you "get it" then? By getting to the level of the abyss that your wife sank into, to commiserate, to feel her pain, to ask her forgiveness for the emotional hacking you did.

Your wife went to a therapist because she needed help to get through her personal hell, don't jump to the conclusion that her therapist has some Svengali-like influence over her, your wife would be offended by your presumptions.

She seeked out her therapist to help her get through her trauma, you caused her this trauma, not this therapist. Don't come across as blaming the therapist for your wife's feelings and reactions towards you.

So yes, in a way, her therapist is right, you tried plastering her wounds with little band-aids, like my husband did, probably like many other husbands, so why not prove her therapist wrong by going much further to help your wife and through that, help yourself and your child?

If your wife trusts her therapist, why don't you go to her therapist and ask her to help you help your wife and child? Make her your ally...remember, it's not about you getting your way by wooing her back, it's about you helping your wife to heal first. Her therapist might have a change of heart if she sees you as genuine, and if she truly wants to help your wife.

This isn't so different from say, a guilty parent apologizing and asking for forgiveness from an emotionally abandoned child to bring about closure, to help both of them move on. A therapist will surely see this as something positive for the patient.

And...if you win her back, be the best husband she can possibly find, don't ever fail her again.

Gave2Much,

thank you, I really appreciate this perspective since you are right, I jumped to conclusions about my wife's therapist. I feel like I've lost my wife tonight, for good. That hope to try my best had evaporated. She's told me she's forgiven me, and that she feels neutral about me, but she's still pursuing a divorce. When she first left, I asked her what I can do to change for the better, she said nothing, it's too late. Only through her telling me what she's unhappy about via side conversations, and the notes I found did I realize what was lacking, and have set out to change them. I think she sees them, and yet, she still says it's too late. She told me this has been going on for about a year, and while short, I'm sure it was painful.

You are right, I'm feeling her pain, but I don't know what to do. Everything I do is being interpreted negatively, as controlling, or as being desperate. I don't feel I am doing either, and the more I demonstrate anything positive, the more it seems to accelerate and solidify her determination for a divorce. It's almost as if she doesn't want to see me being this nice, and she can't wait to stop thinking of me in this way.

I told her I'm not in support of the divorce because I believe I can be better. I would only support the divorce if I know I can't meet her needs. She interpreted that as me trying to trap her, and her therapist said that is more proof that I don't love her?

In her text to her therapist, she said she's 100% sure she doesn't want a life with me, and that she knows she'll divorce me. She did also tell her therapist, all the things I'm doing physically and emotionally are all the things she had wanted before, but it's too late, and it was as predicted by the therapist. So she wrote them off.

My wife told me that her mother didn't leave her marriage, despite her dad fathering two illegitimate children outside of their marriage. My MIL and my therapist both believe that's why my efforts are also not being appreciated.

I will keep trying, but I am losing hope... I'm sorry to have let everyone down. All of your time and efforts dedicated to my family... Thank You.

penubra, as Dr Harley would probably tell you, an individual counselor is very destructive to marriages. It is a crying shame that your wife is going to a therapist because a therapists goal is NOT to save the marriage but to help the client achieve her personal goals du jour. Those goals are almost always in direct conflict with the marriage, so the marriage is doomed and ends in divorce.

And if there is an affair it is even worse, because a therapist only serves to validate goals that are based on an addictive FOGGED out mentality. Even if there is not an affair, you will have to work very hard to overcome this therapists destructive advice.


GAve2much, the goal here is to woo his wife back. That is our purpose and that is what we need to help with him. I am not sure what you mean when you say it is not our goal. It most certainly is. What will "heal" his wife is a great marriage with a supportive husband. This therapist has no earthly idea how to save marriages, so I am not sure why you would suggest he consult with this destructive influence.

You should be a broken record and tell her you will not support divorce. Tell her you will support a happy, mutually satisfying marriage where you are both loved and treated with respect. As expected, this therapist has no earthly idea how to save marriages and this is not her goal. She is the enemy of your marriage.

You are probably going to end up divorced because of this therapists influence, but you can at least fight for your marriage and show your wife that you have changed. When she realizes that divorce will make her miserable, she may remember the great last impression you made.

Let me explain why it is upsetting her.. You are giving her second thoughts about divorce and it is confusing her. She is supposedly divorcing you because you have been horrible. You threw a wrench into that plan by changing your behavior. You need to stick with it. You don't want to purposely push yourself on her, but you need to continue to demonstrate that you can be the husband she needs and wants.

Just keep doing your best to win her back.

^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

And the previous posts by Melody.

They are right on dead center target.

Keep doing what you have been doing and discover more to do.

You WILL continue to create confusion.

Don't beg, plead or ask for accolades on your mini triumphs. They will be rejected and she will div in her heals harder.

LTL

All, thank you. I feel so pained to see my wife write with such certainty about not wanting to spend her life with me. I can't get over it, and it makes me so terribly sad. I know I will have to find the strength to put on my brave face. I am up against such a insurmountable situation, since it's clear to me that my wife trusts her therapist, and sees me as a barrier to her freedom and growth.

I wrote her a small message today: "Dear Jane, please don't interpret this as a trick to control you or a sign of desperation. For the whole night, I thought about all the times I've hurt you and caused you pain. Because I cannot take them away, I can only do my best to heal them. I will carry you as long as that takes, and perhaps one day we can sit at a bench at a park together, under a tree, feeling each other's love and warmth, and watch our son play with his "woof-woof." That would be the happiest day of my life if we can be in that moment..."

That's how I felt when I barley slept last night, and what I wanted to write. Knowing me, that probably came across as desperate or has broken all sorts of rules.

I feel quite sad today, and had to come home from work to avoid just breaking down. I will find the strength to keep going.

You know it yourself already.

That note is pursuit and will be felt as manipulative.

In her mind, she probably will feel, "How dare you bring our Son into this, just trying to manipulate my emotions. My therapist is absolutely right about you. You are still just trying to control me."

Pursuit = Pushing Away

Continual efforts to try to build up any Love Bank Deposits WITHOUT calling attention to your efforts and WHAT YOU WANT eventually will chisel away at her wall.

Now, start fresh again. Nothing is a deal breaker, even if it had the wrong results albeit with pure and good intentions.

Think less emotionally about what You want and need.

LTL

LTL,

wow, maybe I am that terrible, and I just don't know it. Maybe she does deserve better, because I really thought that was heartfelt.

can you give me an example of what to write? Maybe the therapist is right about me...

Yeah, you really shouldn't tell her how to interpret your actions like that, as it is a disrespectful judgement to tell her what to think. And I wouldn't get too hung up on whether it looks desperate or not.

It's not wrong for you to be desperate. You're in love with her and she is trying to leave you. That would make anyone desperate, and justifiably so.

From here forward I would not try to reason with her or highlight what you are doing, unless she asks you about it. You're going to be very tempted to do those things but they will work against you. I would stick to actions and changing habits.

Any reasoning and talking to her about what you've already done, what you plan to do, or how she should think/what she should do are habits that need to go in order for her to be open to you. It will be very hard not to but your actions will speak much louder than any words, and words have the potential to nullify the value of many of your actions. Focus on actions.

Your pain and emotions are leading the way.

I never said you were terrible.

I stated how that message typically gets interpreted.

Start over again. Eliminate the pressure and pursuit.

LTL

STOP this.

Nobody here will coddle you and it wouldn't help if we did.

If you want to fight this you need start thinking about what you can do today to turn this around. Forget about the therapist.

All of what you need to become a great husband is here on the site. Read the articles and start listening to the MB Radio Program every day. There's a great article here on why women leave men that would be a good place to start with helping you get in the right mindset.

You've already won your wife over once so you have the inside track on how to do it again. I've heard Dr. Harley tell husbands this so many times.

But you've got to start focusing on action.

I'm sure this has been mentioned already given the situation....have you talked to your doctor about going onto anti depressants while you work to win your wife back?

I've been in your shoes so I do understand it can be very difficult to work or focus on anything. If it's overwhelming I would check into ADs pronto, as being focused will make you better equipped and able to make love bank deposits. You can make a call to schedule an appointment today.

Thank you Axslinger, I appreciate your feedback.

I'll think about the AD, but in a way, i want to feel the pain. It let's me feel how my wife might have felt when I was a jerk of a husband...

I will keep trying, and focus more on her vs. my needs.

thank you

^ That's noble but it also might sabotage your efforts and make you less able to make love bank deposits without committing love busters along the way. Dr. Harley would probably advise you to look into ADs.

Hi penumbra,

I want to send some words of encouragement to you...I am optimistic that things will work out for you, your wife and child if you keep at what you are doing, going over what you did wrong, trying to do the right thing, empathize and feel your wife's pain, do whatever it takes for her to feel loved, cherished, normal and happy again.

Going into the abyss with her is the only way she knows you truly understand what she went through, and that is the only way for you to help her get out. She sees her therapist because she desperately wants to get out of this abyss.

It took years for the marriage to get to the point where your wife decided to shut down the Love Bank for good. You are going to start from negative, so give your wife and yourself time to slowly build it up, bit by bit.

As long as she hasn't found a new love, time is still on your side, but don't take it for granted, give her space, give her time, but whenever you can, be there for her, especially if you can take over some of her time with her therapist.

Actually, if you are learning to change yourself to be a better husband and father, you are the most likely person to help her heal. This is maybe the best thing you can her for now.

You were the one causing her breakdown after all, so logically, you're the one who can make it right.

I know you're angry at the therapist and you nailed it...she doesn't even know you, so why would she judge you to be xyz? But the answer is staring right there back at you, she is seeing you through your wife's eyes.

I understand why your wife would rather divorce and not see you anymore even if you show atonement.

You see, her greatest fear is probably that this turnaround *might* be a temporary trick to "get her back", you showed that you were capable of hurting her, so she knows you're capable of hurting her the same way in future.

The only way is to demonstrate over time that you really have changed. Only your wife knows what you can do to reassure her.

You can try delaying her decision to divorce you, but don't fight it head on, it lends further evidence that you are in control, not her. Do the opposite of what she thinks of you, if she thinks you are controlling, then let her take over the reins for a change. Gently ease her out of thoughts of divorce, put away all the sledgehammer tools.

I just want to say Bravo...you're doing great by humbling yourself and trying to give all you can give for the woman you love.

**EDIT**

Hi penumbra,

One mistake that many men made is that they feel like they should DO SOMETHING. Actually, just listening to your wife get things off her chest IS doing something.

We women do that a lot, get together, have tea, listen to each other, talk our hearts out.

In fact, we pay therapists $$$ just to talk about our thoughts and feelings and to have them reflect back to us.

If she is talking to you, even if it is to rake you over the coals, you're doing something for her.

PS, I don't find your note as bad as what others think, it did come from your heart. If you could be less generic and more specific about the details of those hurtful incidents, that would help.

It is likely that they are seared into her memory, building up an overall idea of what she thinks you are. You might have to go over them one by one with her, to help her get over each and every one of them.

My apologies if my posts come in starts and stops, I missed some of your earlier posts and react as I read them.

Dr Harley described a situation where the husband swang his arm and hit his wife and she screamed in pain, he apologized, but said, well, I didn't mean to hurt you, sorry that you got hurt, and of course he did it again. There's very little to stop such men because they do not feel any of their wives' pain.

Imagine this wasn't a physical blow, but an emotional hit, and your wife is all black and blue from plenty of these over the past year. In your mind, they weren't physical, so they probably didn't count.

The reason why you must get to her abyss with her is to show her you understand what those blows did to her, and if you feel the pain she felt, you are less likely to deliver those blows again.

It isn't to punish you, it's not self-flagellation, it's a deterrent of sorts, to ensure that you develop enough empathy for your wife to the point that when you find yourself starting to hurt her, you can feel her pain and will stop right there, bringing that proverbial raised arm back to your side.

A reminder that the purpose of this forum is to help others with Marriage Builders concepts. It it not a platform for personal philosophies and folk wisdom. If you can help this poster using Marriage Builders concepts, feel free to post. If not, then please refrain from posting. I see a lot of personal wisdom being posted in place of Dr. Harley's concepts and I would ask that you check your posts.

Thank You Gave2Much,

so I talked to my therapist today, and she said she didn't see anything wrong with my wife's therapists' actions. My therapist shares the same practice as my wife's therapist. In addition, my therapist told me to stop writing notes, and cease all activities so my wife can have space to think about how it feels to be without me. Which sounds like a 180. She said that nothing I can do now can change my wife's mind, especially notes and such. My wife needs to figure thing out.

What should I do? in the back of my mind, I don't fully trust my therapist since she shares the same practice as my wife's. In addition, my wife's already made up her mind, and she said she wants a divorce, why would I give her more space? Is she really going to wake up one day, and say, "oh, I'm going to change my mind." Does that actually happen?

Thank you everyone for your help.

If you want to do this according to MB principles, ditch the therapist and disregard her advice. It is not compatible with Marriage Builders.

penubra, if you want to have any hope of saving this, I would not follow the therapists advice. Women can be won back with persistence. I realize Dr Harley is not a "therapist" but he is a clinical psychologist with 40 years experience saving marriages. He would disagree with both of these "therapists" and encourage you to be persistent in wooing your wife back. I seriously doubt either of the therapists have any earthly idea how to save a marriage.

Why not email Dr Harley and get his perspective? The contact information is found here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

He will help you for free.

Please read this and listen to the clips.
Beware of Bad Counselors

No, don't disappear on her, you've got to keep a relationship with her no matter what happens. You, your wife and your child are inextricably bound together, come what may.

Disappearing on her is not good for her...unless you are still hurting her with cutting or sarcastic words and actions? I hope you are not doing that unknowingly? If you are, you've got to find a way to change these horrible traits and habits.

I think writing to her is good, as she likes reading, it's more intimate and you are less likely to write something rash. Don't try to be clever in your notes, just be sincere.

Don't expect your wife to change her mind overnight, it won't happen, it's unrealistic.

Do let her lead the conversations, so she can start talking to you again. Don't push her, let her decide what she needs from you.

**EDIT**

In a marriage, this person should be you....

I don't know how you have been to her, I don't know her threshold for giving, for tolerance, for keeping a Love Bank with you, these are issues you ought to be brutally honest with yourself and work out with her.

I see you meeting her needs at several levels, currently, at the level of helping her heal herself because of marital problems with you, at the level of building Love Deposits, supporting her goals in life, in her career, in her well-being, at the level of helping her care for your child.

I am really optimistic about your marriage, your sincerity comes across as genuine. Having a loving, caring and supportive husband who makes her and her child happy for the long run is the best thing in the world for your wife. Learn to be *that* husband and father.

All the best to you and your wife!

Hi penumbra,

I will be taking a break, so all the best and goodbye everybody.

I have some experience of AO (and violence) in relationships (not my own). It occurs in cycles - first an AO, and then remorse and profuse apologies. The guy cannot seem to break the cycle. It takes only a moment while the guy is out of control for an AO to turn to violence, sometimes with tragic effects. It only gets worse, never better, on its own.

Counselors and even "Shelter" advise the spouse to leave the house, with any children, as soon as she detects the cycle for it can never stop on its own. That is they are advised to leave the premises and separate at the detection of the second AO.

You need to get outside help to break the cycle. You need to be in counseling. The guy will think "it will never happen to me", but in a moment during the AO part of the cycle it takes a moment's slip to commit a crime and ruin your own life.

Get into counseling, at first on your own, and then, hopefully, with your wife. the only way, mate.

This is not really MB advice regarding AOs.

This poster was advised as to what chapters to read in Lovebusters and given Dr Harley's radio clips on AOs (relaxation techniques, acknowledging that you are responsible for your AOs etc, getting anger management if necesasry etc)

He was already in "counseling" and they were talking about his childhood, and not getting to the root of the problems in the M and not addressing any of the things Dr Harley advises for AOs. People have been trying to steer him away from "counseling". I also don't think Dr Harley advises counseling with your spouse when getting treatment for AOs.

Hello All,

Just wanted to check in and let everyone know I am so appreciative of your support. We are still in the woods, and while I don't think I have turned this ship around, it does feel like it's not getting that much worse. My wife still hasn't filed for divorce, so I am on borrowed time. Although she still tells me she doesn't want to be with me, she does acknowledge I have become a good father to our son. We see each other only a couple times a week, when we exchange our son, but last weekend she stayed over because our son had a 104F temperature. We slept in separate rooms, but she showed a very very slight glimmer of affection (she fed me french fries with her hands). Yea, I know, super cheesy, but I can't believe how affected I was by the gesture.

However, this week she wasn't so great to me. She was back to her usual self of demonizing me when I had mentioned how I feel like marriage counselors were bad for marriages. She took offense to the idea since she didn't think her counselor was anything but an angel. She then said how I looked sad and was acting crazy, and to not do that around our son. I was upset about that, and I told her that's not true. I'm not sure why she would say that since I feel hopeful and positive. Perhaps I'm delusional and just don't know it?

Anyhow, this is the hardest thing I have ever done, and I've endured some crazy things (I once took 3 weeks to climb a 24,800 foot mountain, and that was easy in comparison - even though 4 climbers died on that climb!). I find ways to find strength to keep going, but I'd be lying if I said we are going to make it. I don't think I'm strong enough to overcome her obstinance, but i will keep trying until I am served the divorce papers. She tells me I'm purposely trapping her by not agreeing to a mediator, and that I'm forcing her into a legal battle by not agreeing to a divorce; that I am not giving her freedom, and if I do love her, I would go along with the divorce and free her. I don't know what to say to that, but to say that I do love her and my son, and for me to agree to a divorce is like committing suicide. I'm not sure If that was the right thing to say, but that's how I feel.

So many around me is giving me so much emotional support, and I'm so grateful... I never felt so "human" before, as I feel now. Best of luck to all those fighting for their marriage.

Sir,

Don't think you are delusional based solely on your wife's statements.

When your wife asks why you won't agree to divorce, I suggest you tell her that you have a plan to build a romantic marriage with her where all of her needs are met.
Currently, you are telling her you won't agree to divorce because it is like "committing suicide." This will not appeal to her. When a woman is in the state of marital withdrawl, her "Taker" is in control and only cares about herself.
She doesnt care if you will be devastated but may be interested if you tell her and show her that you can meet her Takers demands

I like that, thank you for crafting a better message for me!

A woman who needs a man's permission to divorce is not dead set. Just sayin.

I'd still be married now. I was so dead set I never had one conversation with him about it - you only need one visit to a lawyer! Talkers talk, doers do.

X2

My wayward threatened till the cows came home. I eventually filed because he would not end his affair, but I didn't discuss it with him. I just did it.

penumbra,

You mentioned this being difficult and not being optimistic about the outcome. Have you got a prescription for ADs yet?

Thank you Indiegirl, I'm hoping you are right since this keeps me going! I also thought the same, and I'm hoping it's because deep down perhaps there is a small glimmer of hope that she wants to give our marriage a chance. She just won't say it

I went to talk to my doctor and he said he sees a man that's going through hardship, but not depressed. He's monitoring me, but he doesn't think I need it (yet).

I appreciate you good intentions since the AD will probably no doubt allow me to execute MB plans much butter, but I also just want to be me. And for my wayward to see what I can become, being so much better, but not flawless. I have and will always have feelings, and if I can't control them now, then it wouldn't be fair to invite my WAW to give it another shot for the future.

do you think it's possible my WAW wants me to file, and that's her plan? Perhaps she can't stand the idea that she'd be the one to initiate a legal divorce. That crossed my mind that maybe she wants me to be the "bad guy" for future documentation purposes for our son, in case he become blameful about being in a divorced family.

No I wouldn't go that far either. A waywards head is full of packing foam.

Essentially what she wants is to keep all options open without having to make any hard decisions or face hard consequences. But most important is that she is the most popular cheerleader in school and all the guys are happy to be doormats as she tramples away.

This involves you panting with gratitude as she asks you for the impossible - create a divorce situation that doesn't impact her finances.

Even if you did agree to that she probably wouldn't see it through. Paperwork is hard.

When the A ends she might have time/space for serious thought. That's the woman your actions now will impress.

Until then it's all moment-to-moment feel good teenagery impulses.

penumbra,

Just passing along what Dr. Harley advises men in your situation to do on ADs. It's more about giving the greatest likelihood of success as opposed to a matter of empathy.


Keep up a solid Plan A and focus on eliminating lovebusters, but be thinking of a timeline in your head for how long you are willing to wait your wife out. Truly anything can happen but one of the possible outcomes of situations like this has occurred to many posters here where the withdrawn spouse keeps the engaged spouse in limbo like you are without filing D for years and years.

Knowing where the finish line is will help you to run this race much harder and avoid discouragement. Maybe be thinking of how long you can keep this up. Dr. Harley typically advises men to try for between 6 months and 2 years depending on what they can tolerate.

No, she just wants to keep her options open (you being the fallback at the moment) and not face any consequences. Believe me, as a wayward, if she wanted to file, she would. She is not really thinking about the future at the moment--and if she is it is filled with false fantasies for her imaginary wonderful life with this creep.

When it comes to filing for divorce and/or going into Plan B, believe me, NOBODY will blame you in the future if you go this route; not even your son. He should know that his mother had an affair. Even if she points at you and says, "quitter", it will be clear to everyone with half a brain that you had no choice if she did not end her affair and follow EPs.

Anyone can 'appear' changed for a few minutes a week, they key is going to be consistency. Keep saying the SAME thing all the time. Your goal, what you are working hard for, is to create the safe, loving marriage for your wife and son.

What kind of things did you do for her when you were dating? What did she respond to? Does she like receiving gifts, does she like you doing things for her, doe she like and want words of encouragement?

If YOUR therapist shares the practice with HER therapist, GTHO as soon as possible. We all know there's supposed to be confidentiality, but that seems like playing with fire.

Accountability software for your computer hasn't been mentioned recently, have you done that? Stopping the pornography is very important as well. Don't replace your wife with fake e-sex.