Oh gooood gravy. Don't pay to educate some fool when you are in the battle of your life. When you aren't actively winning your wife back you should be taking care of yourself . That means 'unloading' in ways that work: fun and rest, distractions, friends and genuine, free support.

Save yourself the cash and misdirection. A gloomy talking shop with an amateur is no help and an active hindrance.

I don't think you understand how hard this is going to be. You will need every ounce of strength and help.



Talking about depression doesn't resolve depression!

I avoided ADs too (I don't even take aspirin) and I just made it unnecessarily harder for myself. At the start you still dont realize how much pain there is to get through. I barely got through plan B and that's a much easier plan. One day when I had a terrible tooth ache, I took pain meds and I realized how much greater the pain of recovery was - I'd held out much longer due to ignorant conventional wisdom that emotions simply don't matter as much.

There are some non medidicinal methods.

1) laughter
2) exercise
3) hugs.

Not as strong as ADs but effective.

But don't pick at the pain with a fraud.

Have you heard the radio clips in here?
Beware of Bad Counselors

The counseling was free thru my work. I dont have to return. This is the hardest thing i have ever done and i realize that as i made mistakes during my start of the first plan A when she revealed her sexual activities with other men after our divorce. It was literally starting all over again. I wish she would have just told me everything at once. I realized that in plan A i need to forget about trying to find out what she has done and just focus on being her best option. I dont know...its been hard yes. I at first did not eat for a few days or sleep. I eat now but i still dont have apatite like i used to. Sleep is still very slim. From this and my work schedule.

If you say its good to go out and have fun i will try that. I can go out with friends but they enjoy bars and drinking. I dont really feel up to that but maybe i should go.

This might help.
Dr. Harley on How to Deal with Triggers

Yes thanks. That does explain it well. I hope one day we get to the point where she is willing to reveal everything. For now i have to overlook it per say for the sake of getting there.

Plan something you like and see if they are interested. Or meet new people through your interests. I wouldn't try to drink much in your situation. The last thing you need is your own affair.

Ok so she is still not talking to me...no surprise its only been a few days. But now her mom is texting me arrangements for getting my kids from her only. Leaving my ws out of it completely. This will make it harder to even get a chance to meet a need. Any suggestions?

I wouldn't do anything she's specifically prohibited. Going against her wishes is a huge lovebuster. If her mother is just suggesting it then say 'thanks but no thanks'. If it's being prescribed as what your WW wants then I would at least take credit for listening. Text her and say 'I was really hoping to pick up the children from the house and say hi. Still at all possible?' If she says no, then say 'I'm disappointed and will miss you like crazy, but very well'.

You've still offered to see her. You're still available, caring, listening and within reach.

Besides, it's an odd wayward who's constant. If you don't make a big deal it's likely she will forget by the next time and will see you to effect there's a more direct way to mess with you get you to lose hope!

Ok. It sounds like thats her wishes. She just had her mom text me so she didnt have to. I did like you said and sent my ww a text asking other arrangements. She wont even reply. At all

Its times like this i feel discouraged and fear i have already caused too many love busters. Because while we got along last weekend we made plans for this week so i could see the kids around christmas and i wouldnt be alone the whole time. But now she is punishing me. I will be alone this week. I also work on christmas.

Do any of you know much about boarderline personally disorder? I have been reading a lot of articles on it and bipolar disorder. It seems there is a very clear linkage between that and infidelity. My ww has always displayed characteristics that match the bpd.

A) It's never too late to start doing better. B) You didn't cause an affair which is what this is really about. You didn't get a vote on that. If she'd simply objected to lovebusters and moved out, you would have responded. They were never bad enough to end the marriage. But they're plenty good enough to justify an affair.





If she's withholding them from you it is very definitely amateur hour. I would log all of this, see a lawyer with details of how she is withholding the kids. Maybe even get it in writing, such as emailing her/her mother with: "just want to ask why the change in schedule so I no longer get to see the kids at Christmas? I just want you to know I am still keeping xday available for kids visits as planned" Otherwise you risk looking like you didn't want them.

If she's going to use her mother as an intermediary and not communicate then she has to give you a reliable schedule.

You could see a lawyer in the next few days to see whether you could enforce time with them over Christmas. You could dictate the schedule since she hasn't done one.


Can't you make some plans?With family or friends? Even if it's just with your favourite ten movies or snacks!

She will constantly punish you in Plan A. As soon as you've become hardened to her distance she will show up to do face to face punishment again. She will not simply avoid you or allow you to forget her, because that wouldn't be punishing enough.

I have a free attorney, well very cheap, thru work. And i have everything documented. But the way our order is worded is bad. Theres not much i can do about it because my schedule changes every 6 months or so. The judge wanted exact days and times. If i were to do that then and i got moved to a different squad i would be violating my times. So im just waiting but if it starts getting bad i wilk address it how i can.

The extra time i have now is being put to use. Im working out again and taking care of myself. I find ways to keep myself busy. I dont have family here.

Free stuff is nice, but you get what you pay for. Doesn't your work have a responsibility to allow parental leave? That's more use than a monkey who works for peanuts.

YES! but, I recommend that you don't go down this path on this board... it will be a huge distraction from your ultimate goal... saving your marriage!

Things I have learned to pass on ( I am just going through the same thing you are right now):
* A WS and someone with BPD are very similar.. the extreme selfishness and all the behaviors are similar. Don't get too distracted trying to "diagnose" your WW.
* Things that were helpful to me as I did research on dealing with BPD which are also helpful for plan A... do not take the behavior of your WS spouse personally and avoid being disrespectful at all costs. Do not suggest that your WS needs help.. it won't work. Learn to detach your emotions from hers.. .don't let her negativity bring you down.. learn to stay positive and cheerful no matter how she acts.
* Going "no contact" is very common for BPD and it was also what happened with my WS, it might also be typically "FOG " behavior, you can't tell. My WS got a new phone and blocked me from it. Don't worry too much.. given that you have children, I think the contact and opportunities for plan A will come back... they did in my case, but it took about 6 months.
* As with dealing with a BPD a good concept you can use with plan A is learning how to NOT argue with your WS. I still struggle with this because the things she says are so far out in left field. No matter how factually incorrect and "blaming", always / never, the conversation is, think about the emotion that they are trying to express and how you can show empathy and you are willing to listen without fighting back or being defensive. You do not need to agree with all their facts to avoid the temptation to fight back. I have also learned that on this board as well as books on loving a BPD.

One thing that I have learned to say... rather than argue about incorrect statements from the past... "you never did this for me etc..", I just reply by saying "I am sorry if you have ever felt uncared for in the past but I am here for you now to meet whatever needs you have as best I can. I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to do that".. my WS will always say to that "it's too late now" or "that would have been nice 4 years ago"... to that I just respond " I am here for you now"... just as the posters on this board have recommended.. she will be likely to turn you down at every corner, but Keep doing it.

If you can learn to do all these things and do not diagnose or try to tell your WW that she has some kind of disorder.. whether she is BPD or this is just part of the FOG... you will still be doing all the right things for plan A. Remember that your plan A is something that you can control but whatever personality disorder your WS may or may not have is something that you cannot control.

Also remember that we are all wired to have an affair so the link to BPD is going to be hard to make.

The other thing that I have learned is that when you do make contact again... all the negativity, rejections, and selfishness that you get from the WW will start withdrawing your love bank for her quickly. I have actually started to hate my WW through plan A.. which is one of the difficult things. I keep reminding myself to ignore my instincts and think about what is the right "plan A" thing to do in this situation.

Thats good advice thank you. So last night i was listening to a christian radio station and they started talking about humiliation in the bible. They cited many examples given by god in which we should humiliate, or embarass, ourselves in public to soften the hearts of those that are lost but we love so dear. Jesus dying on the cross is the best example of course. There are so many examples of this behavior in the bible it really made me think. Wow...maybe i should find something to do. Whats manly yet publicly embarassing? Then it hit me...i could go to her work unannounced and start singing to her right in front of whoever is there. I am no good singer so its deff going to be embarassing but how could she not smile or laugh. What do you think? Maybe in a week or so if shes still not talking?

You should automatically expect a deadpan, lead balloon response when plan Aing a wayward. You'd be giving her a golden opportunity to roll her eyes wayward style.

I think it's a lovely idea and it will make deposits, but there will be no visible reaction to your gestures for a while and you will want to take that into account.


What kind of quotations did they use to back up their point? Misreading of the bible is a chronic habit for some. Im no bible scholar, but I don't know that I would describe the crucifixion as an embarrassment and I'm even less sure that it's relevant to a marital relationship.

Its was a very long explanation. It was from focus on the family i think. The guy who explained it pointed out specific things from the bible and related them to what it really meant during that time period. Im not sure if it carries into marital love but it just gave me an idea. Im just trying to break this ice between us

It has been a full week. Still zero contact from her. Not even a text reply. Its driving me crazy lol.

Merry christmas. I got served with an order of protection. It sounds bogus...she stated i caused HER emotional distress. I guess its time i get an attorney. Obviously i cant work now because of this. I know i will win at the hearing. Any advice?