So if you give her $5K now, before a court divides up your assets, what insurance do you have that the $5K will even be acknowledged by the court? When they divide your assets, won't they look at the money you currently have between you and divvy that up however they do? So won't she get the $5K from you now, and then just as much as she would have gotten regardless later?

And why would this cost more in legal fees? Don't you have to go to court and use lawyers for the divorce and division of property regardless? Is she going to take you to court for $5K to move NOW before the divorce so that it's extra work for the lawyers?

To me, handing a wayward $5K seems crazy. Of course, I am not a lawyer, but why isn't she handing you $5K for mortgage payments or whatever since she's leaving you alone with the house? I understand you're the primary bread winner but I would be sure to ask your attorney if you just hand over $5K now, what's to stop her from getting that same $5K (plus more) again during the settlement?

I wanted to explain my thoughts about his paying the $5000 moving money to his wife. Typically, we tell people not to give any money unless court ordered and I even told Lost that very thing earlier. However, the reason behind that advice is because it is essentially facilitating the affair which is bad for the marriage. Keep in mind, though, that the goal here is to do what is best for the marriage, not necessarily to abide by a particular tactic.

That being said, it is my view that the best thing for his marriage is for her to move out. In almost every other case, it is just the opposite, so it would not be a good idea to give the WS money to move out. In this case, I think her moving out and living on her own will be the best chance at waking up her fog. Her affair is 12+ years long and has been sustained long distance by a powerful fantasy. It will take quite a bit to kill that fantasy and I think moving out might kill it, if anything can.

I hope that once she moves out that reality will finally ruin her affair when she has to fend for herself. She will see that her little long distance "love affair" is not enough to sustain her and will fall short.

I feel strongly that after she is out, he should not pay anything unless it is court ordered.

Anyway, that is why I am not saying anything about this payment to get her moved out.

Because I have a lot more than $5K in cash in the bank. If she goes to the court, they will order me to hand over half of it (typically the recommendation is to move half the cash to my account, but I moved pretty much all of it).

My check was given to her as an "advance" on any payments. Based on our state's computer program, I'll have to give her ~$5K a month for support. The $5K has been documented by both attorneys and the check as an advance. Believe me, we have a lot more than $5K to fight over if it ends up in divorce!

I know it's hard for you guys from more conservative states to understand but it's really futile to try to fight this. I've talked to three divorce attorneys and they both came up with basically the same numbers.

The cards are really stacked against men in our state, and as the high earner, I'm doubly screwed. It's a "no-fault" state so nothing will really change the math. Every dollar that was earned during our marriage, she is entitled to 50 cents. Unless I somehow was able to keep it separate, like I was very careful with my house and also several investment accounts that predate our marriage. But otherwise, I am screwed.

The POSOM already said in so many words that he is not really interested in her. So I think it will hit her smack in the head once she does move out that he's not going to move 16 time zones here. Because if she does leave, she will lose everything.

My worry, however, is that once she gets a taste of the amount of money that she will receive, she may say, hey, I need neither POSOM nor Lost, I can have a grand old time by myself with all the freedom and none of the hassle of being married. This is what is dysfunctional about having to pay support (alimony). The judge may give her a year to get a real full time job, but in the meantime she can live high using my support.

And you just need to make sure she doesn't view marriage as a "hassle." That is the goal of Plan A. Most women are much happier being married than single.

We are spending this entire President's weekend at a baseball tournament, so we are interacting with each other whether WW likes it or not. The more I thought about this, all of her recent actions are because she is upset at Exposure and being embarrassed about it. She confided this to her friend, she is angry and confused. The POSOM already said, "I wish I can be there with you but I have my family obligations here." He's not going to leave his business to move here. So she knows that it is just a fantasy.

But she refuses to open up and talk to me. It is like the Cold War nuclear war escalation, ending in Mutually Assured Destruction with the divorce. She wants to get back at me for the Exposure, and also what she perceives as Disrespectful Judgment on my part throughout our marriage, which I have acknowledged to her.

She already told her friends and relatives that she needs try to be independent and fail if necessary on her own (she has never lived on her own in 47 years, the day we got married she moved from her parents' place to my house). Having said that, it is very hard for her to back down given the story she has told others about me. Also there are the Enablers around her, POSOM, and her attorney that is goading her on with tactical steps against me in the divorce.

I don't know if there going to be enough meaningful interaction between us to overcome all of these things working against our marriage. The more I learn about the divorce process and procedures, the more I realize they will lead to a divorce. All of the negotiations for custody, division of property, support, etc. just create antagonism between us. Whether I talk to her directly or go through an attorney, it doesn't matter. It will just make us enemies.

During this weekend we were civil but I can feel her resentment constantly toward me. But in front of the rest of the team we seem fine, just the perfect doting parents. We had lunch and dinner together and I can feel her appreciation for my presence in her and our son's lives. But still I can feel she is not going to give up the negativity and pride contributing to the demise of our marriage. Sigh.

I think you just need to stay the Plan A course. You're doing great! Fake it til you make it. I know what you mean too as my WH needs to stay his course as well just to prove that HE is right. Doing anything else would mean having to admit fault. It's part of the fog.

People who are in a fog, don't realize they are in a fog. Until reality intrudes. So no, I don't agree she knows she is living out a fantasy. You can tell someone is in a fog when they make irrational decisions, as she is doing. Her actions make no sense and will only lead to heartbreak, yet she pushes forward. She remains in the fog because she is still in contact with the OM..


Anger over exposure is due to the FOG. Fog is maintained by continued contact wiht the OM.

And what do you mean by "she perceives as Disrespectful Judgment on my part throughout our marriage?"

What does that mean EXACTLY? What did you do that gave her that perception? Another thing I find concerning is that you talk about her getting free of you and viewing marriage as a hassle. Does she feel controlled by you over the course of your marriage?


Just so you know, about EVERY SINGLE husband who comes on here tells us his wife is too stubborn to back down. However, if she decided to come back, wild horses would not stop her.


That is because you have never been through this. When she moves out and her affair starts crumbling and reality intrudes, you will be sitting there with your hand out as the most appealing, attractive option. She may begin to respond but it will take time and patience. You will need to look for opportunities. One excellent opportunity is to talk to her when she calls. Make sure you are always as pleasant as possible. The OM has kept her on the string for years by being a great conversationalist from afar. You can do that too.


This is why you shouldn't be discussing any of this with her. Let your attorneys do that and make your communications as pleasant as possible. If she brings it up, just say you would rather the attorneys deal with all that unpleasant stuff.

But she has "freedom" now so I am puzzled by this comment. Why would she have more freedom as a single woman?

The Disrespectful Judgment are from my frequent sarcastic remarks about things, not necessarily toward her. Sometimes she would join in judgment about others, but now she says I said the mean things. For example, there were some math problems that my DS and I were working on. Sometimes when I'm not home he would ask WW but she wouldn't know the answer. Sometimes DS and I would make some callous remarks about how she is not good at math, or academics in general.

Also, she likes to control both DS and myself a lot, getting into that "nagging" stage. If either of us dripped something on our glass dining table, she would freak out. One time she was really nagging DS so I told her, "You know, you are coming on as a very overbearing mom." It was kind of a joke from a story my sister told us, as she got that word on her performance review at work and she was totally offended by it. WW and I laughed about it that time, but when I said it about WW, she was upset but she didn't say anything. After all the A came out she sited this as one of the reasons we are not compatible.

Now that I look back on it it is very hurtful and I never should have done that. I told her I will change my behavior but she said people never change. The biggest part about this is she kept everything bottled up, even to all her friends. She never told anyone (except POSOM) any of the problems she had with me. So when she now gives these examples to her friends, they agree with me that they are small problems that added up because she internalized it and hated me for them. However, both DS and I were in the dark as to her true feelings, as she never expressed anger on these items.

As to the "controlling," it really is not until after D-Day, when I put in place all of the countermeasures such as tracking and phone spying. Her college friend told her that she should expect that, after what she had done. But she said she can't breathe with me looking at everything! But other than after D-Day, I never "controlled" her. I basically let her do what she wanted, she went from working 40 hours a week down to 30 then now to 15 hours. She was having problems at her previous job with her new boss, but I told her to stick with it since she's been at that place for 15 years. I gave her suggestions to discuss them with her boss or other people on the board, but she never did. In the end, she decided to quit but she now blames me for telling her to stay there and making her miserable.

I did tell she should have a job since we have after school programs for DS. She now tells me that she felt pressured to keep her job. I told her she should quit if she doesn't want to work, but now that she wants to get a D she needs the job.

Otherwise, I never kept tabs on her, and she had our credit card and bought whatever she wanted to buy. She is pretty responsible overall, but once in a while I would see how many handbag she had accumulated and make a remark. She gets mad and would say, I work too so I can spend what I want. So I generally just leave it alone, thinking it would buy us peace.

What she is thinking by "freedom" is freedom from my "spying" and also the fact that I am a constant reminder that she cannot contact POSOM. Even though he is not going to be there for him, from what her college friend said, he was her first "true love" and she just keep going back to that ideal, forgetting that he forsook her and got married to someone else after his family rejected her.

Thanks for the explanation. It sounds like you understand you made some mistakes, and probably some of this is exaggerated by her. The "controlling" issue over spying on her falls into that category.

This is very disrespectful:
A complaint is an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage and an irritation in a bad marriage. IT is not "nagging" to tell you something bothers her. you might not like hearing about it, but the alternative is worse. It is like getting a NSF notice from the bank. It is no fun to get it, but not getting it is worse. It is a huge lovebuster to accuse a spouse of "nagging" when she tells you something bothers her. I hope you understand that now.

Do you have the book Lovebusters? My suggestion would be to get it and read through it to make sure you are not doing things that further harm her feelings about you. The book was a huge eye opener to both my H and I because we were unwittingly making many mistakes.

This "freedom" will likely lead to the death of her fantasy. Affairs thrive on secrecy, but that will all be gone when she moves out.

Yes, I fully understand my mistakes now. I admitted them to her, but she is in no mood to hear them, nor any of the MB concepts or anything to do with relationships. I have also read SAA and HNHN. I have the Lovebusters book and have read the first two chapters.

However, the daily storms and surprises over the past few weeks have made me so discouraged that I stopped reading LB and was reading all the material and books on divorce strategy instead. It is like walking a tightrope trying to Plan A while defending against divorce attacks from WW and her Enablers.

By the way, the $5K I gave her was not going to make or break her move out. I found out that she already got a loan from my MIL for $6K to help her move. That was how she was able to sign the lease for the apartment and gave the deposit and rent.

So the $5K will simply allow her to pay back my MIL and avoid having to go to court for something I will surely lose. Also, if we do reconcile I will probably have better relationship with MIL. That was the attorney's advice as well, she wouldn't be able to use that against me, that I was trying to "starve" her into submission.

I am not concerned in the least about you trying to teach her about Marriage Builders, but that you are not COMMITTING lovebusters. I don't want you to make the situation worse. That is why you need to read that book. Because if you are committing lovebusters, it greatly harms any chances you have. You need to be very strategic here with a 2 faceted approach that focuses on:

1. being as attractive as possible. Offering her a safe, attractive place to land. That means eliminating all lovebusters. [your "nagging" comment above is worrisome because it reveals a level of disrespect]

2. protecting yourself legally

You can't do just one and not the other, you need to focus on both. Let the lawyers do the legal stuff and you stay out of it.

In general, it is not a good idea to cooperate with someone whose goal it is to destroy your marriage and wipe you out financially. She is in the fog, and what will wake her up is a cold splash of reality. I hope this gesture is not a sign of what is to come, because you will just end up with a destroyed marriage and a greatly minimized net worth if your lawyer does not start fighting for you. You and your lawyer should make her work for everything, rather than just handing it over to a fogged out wayward.

Attorneys have a tendency to want to roll over to appear "amicable" so they can facilitate an easy divorce. His goal is to get a divorce. PERIOD. He has no earthly concept of the fog and as such, tends to think that your wife will be "reasonable" if you appear "reasonable." That is like telling a woman to just lay there while she is raped, as if this will cause the rapist to become a reasonable person. His approach to your wife tells me he doesn't understand her mentality.

Your lawyer said that you should just hand it over instead of having to go to court and waste $3000 to get it anyway. Well, guess what? She doesn't want to go to that trouble either and likely WON'T if challenged. But handing it over to avoid conflict just emboldens her. And most importantly, does nothing to alleviate her fog.

That's the tough part about all of this. If I can't trust my attorney, who can I trust? Sure, I can run up the legal bills by fighting every little move WW makes. But I'm pretty sure he is right about the state formula for calculating support and assets, I've heard it from multiple people. My attorney was recommended to me as an "aggressive" attorney that will fight for rights. But he told me that if you appear unreasonable to the judge, you will lose out in the end. He seems to have a pretty good reputation from what I can gather in his 20 years doing this.

I read two more chapters in LB. I'm just trying to imagine how I can avoid LB's in the divorce situation. I can let the attorneys deal with the details but in the end she's still going to get mad from the maneuvers.

Absolutely you can trust your attorney. To pursue his objective, which is an easy, conflict free divorce.


We are not suggesting that you "fight" every little move, but that you don't surrender everything in advance. TRy and drag this all out so that hopefully her fog wears off before you are divorced. Don't be like the French by pre-emptively surrendering at the gates of Paris. Rushing in waving a white flags benefits you in no way. Rather, make her WORK for every little thing. The more you roll over, the faster and easier the divorce will be. The more you cooperate the more likely you will be divorced before her fog wears off.


And I believe you. But keep in mind, his goal is different from yours. I am sure he is very successful in obtaining divorces for people. WE are focused on you having the best chance for your marriage.


What you should do is avoid lovebusters. I don't get the sense you understand what that means. A lovebuster is about YOUR BEHAVIOR. These are lovebusters:

Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty

You do not have to commit a single lovebuster in the process of a divorce. Which lovebuster did you feel you have to employ in pursuit of a divorce?

In other words, an "amicable" divorce, where you roll over and surrender, is the dream of attorneys and court bureaucrats. But ask yourself at every turn if it is in your best interest and the best interest of your marriage. Your goal is to try and stay married; his goal is to get you divorced.

One bit of advice I got was to first explain to your attorney you objectives - that talk went like this for me:

Atty - "What is your goal? Do you want the house? etc"
Me - "I want to delay this as much as possible and try to let my marriage have a chance to recover after her affair ends."

Second bit of advice, Always ask your attorney the real drop dead due date of items. Example, my wife submitted a Production of Documents in January, with a due date of Jan.31st to the court... I asked my attorney "How long can I wait to complete that before the court gets really upset?" he answered "You can wait 30 days." So there I just gained about 30 days of time into my case.

I hate the divorce game and I really hate talking to my attorney and especially hearing what my WW's atty has to say. I understand it can be troubling - just try to remember what you are trying to accomplish.