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Originally Posted by FL2BoysMom
The comment about me 'needing' to get child support from the kids bio father... the answer to that is absolutely not. He is a bad, bad guy and I do not want him in the children's lives at all (No, he's not my first husband, the good guy, he was the guy in between the two husbands.) He is not listed as the father on either boys' birth certificates and has no established legal rights... trying to get child support from him would establish those legal rights for him and that is not something that I am willing to do. Ever. Under any circumstances. He is a dangerous man, but without any 'proof' of that, no court in this state will deny him the right to see the kids, which he would get if he had parental rights...


I understand that you are paralysed with fear but you are not thinking straight. If you go to a women's shelter in your town they will give you advice on how to do this in a way that protects you. There is a way to get the child support to which you are entitled without exposing your children to danger. You need to get advice on how.

Look at it this way; your children are being actively harmed every day that they witness your suffering. If they grow up thinking this is acceptable behaviour you are teaching your daughters to seek this in their own relationships and your sons to treat their wives this way. Isn't that even more dangerous?


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I have just re-read this page - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_exposed.html

And I quote: - "When there is an affair in the workplace, my general advice is that the unfaithful spouse must quit the job and find another to avoid ever seeing or talking to the lover again. But while the affair is taking place and the unfaithful spouse is unwilling to resign, should a betrayed spouse expose the affair to the employer?

While I unhesitatingly recommend exposing the affair to friends, family, clergy, children and the lover's spouse, I'm not so quick to suggest exposing it to an employer. That's because such exposure could have unintended legal and economic consequences. For example, the affair might constitute grounds for a sexual harassment claim by the unfaithful spouse's lover. Or it might trigger the outright firing of the spouse, making it far more difficult for them to find another job.

So in those cases I usually advise the betrayed spouse to warn the unfaithful spouse he or she will expose the affair to the employer in a month if the unfaithful spouse is still working there, giving him or her time to make a graceful exit from the job to another. Even if a new job cannot be found in a month, I recommend waiting no longer to inform the employer, unless the unfaithful spouse has already resigned."

Dr. Harley's advice is crystal clear on this... even if he has refused to end the affair, the 30 day notice on the job still stands, and for the reasons Dr. Harley outlines.

I have not had the opportunity to give my husband this warning. And I have no idea how I can give him this warning.

Now... that said, I've had several friends who refused to 'use their influence' to get him to 'end his dangerous affair and work on the marriage', say to me, "Well I don't know how I could help."

There is no template or script I can give them for that, and the even fewer people who have tried to help, as I said, didn't follow the script I gave them, and they wound up asking him 'questions' which allowed him to lead the conversation, and all I got was a report back to me, "Well I think you just need to accept that your marriage is over."

I cannot go through anymore of that. All it does is piss me off that I have some really weak or really stupid friends who can't follow a script and stand firm.

If I'm going to put any pressure on him, it has to come from someone that he respects AND who is not going to cave in and let my husband lead the conversation.

And so far no one has been able to lead a conversation with him, and justify what I'm doing (reporting him) as the right thing for me to do... everyone will say to me that I should, but no one will say to him "Yes, she should and I back her up on it too." I can't even show him this forum for him to see it.

So no, I'm not willing to do that without some kind of back up.

I may expose to his job, but again, Dr. Harley's advice is clear, it's not for just when he's committed to ending the affair and saving the marriage, the 30 day notice still stands even if he insists on carrying on the affair.

So if you don't want to support me in figuring out how I can give him this 30 day notice, then fine. But I'm going to stick with exactly what Dr. Harley has written.

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You gave him warning a year ago. Expose. If you think this advice is not in line with what Dr. Harley says, notify the mods or write Dr. Harley yourself.

I dont think you are helping yourself by ruminating so long. Do it or don't but make a choice.

You will feel better when you start to take action.


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You have the absolute right to do as you think best. However, I would like to point out that you are misunderstanding Dr Harley's advice.

You have quoted from an article, but you have left out the context for which it is written. That article is written for a couple who are trying to keep their marriage together. It is not written for the situation in which the unfaithful spouse has left the home, is living with OW and has said he is never going back.

How do I know that? Because isn that article, he writes, in several places, about the couple still being together at the point where the BS is advised to expose. For example:

Whenever a betrayed spouse tells me that they've just discovered their spouses affair, my advice is almost always the same: Let others know about it. Tell your children, family, friends, clergy, and especially the lovers spouse, if they have one. And this is even to be done during what I call plan A (making an effort to make as many Love Bank deposits, and as few withdrawals as possible).

The problem some people have with that strategy is that it conflicts with the goal of plan A because it's likely to cause massive Love Bank withdrawals. An unfaithful spouse almost always considers such exposure to be a worse act of betrayal than their affair itself. But the alternative, helping the unfaithful spouse to keep the affair a secret, is enabling the addiction, prolonging the agony. In the long run, making the affair public knowledge without any forewarning, threats, or bartering (which by themselves can create massive withdrawals) actually reduces the number of Love Bank withdrawals made by the betrayed spouse.


That advice is not being given to a BS whose unfaithful spouse has already left, is living with OP, and is defiantly not coming back. In that situation, the discussion of Plan A would be redundant. And I would just point out that he is generally against warning the WS about exposure, because "warning, threats or bartering" cause massive love bank withdrawals.

In the section about exposure to the workplace, it is also clear that he is talking about a couple who are still together, where the WS is promising to end the affair and keeps giving reasons for not being able to do, or perhaps is lying about having ended the affair, but then bottom line is, he has not ended it. The point is that he is cake-eating, and the couple is still together:

Economic considerations

A divorce, and even separation, can have dire economic consequences for a betrayed spouse. Many wives of cheating husbands that I've counseled are economically dependent on him. If she exposes the affair, she fears that he will leave her, creating financial hardship. So in those cases, before exposing the affair, I generally encourage her to plan for that possibility.


Clearly he is talking there about a couple that is still living together. A wife cannot "fear that he will leave her" if he has already left her. And you'll note that Dr Harley does not say that the fear of financial hardship should stop the wife from exposing; he tells her to plan for this and still expose.

When there is an affair in the workplace, my general advice is that the unfaithful spouse must quit the job and find another to avoid ever seeing or talking to the lover again.

Again, clearly Dr H is talking about the couple that is still together. He is advising the unfaithful, who, by definition, must be on board with saving the marriage, if he is seeking advice from Dr Harley. This is not advice that is being given to the BS when the WS is living with OW.

But while the affair is taking place and the unfaithful spouse is unwilling to resign, should a betrayed spouse expose the affair to the employer?

Dr H has not stopped talking to the couple that is still together. He is discussing the situation where the WS claims to want to save the marriage, but carries on working with OW. Dr Harley knows where that will end; with WS and OW back in bed together, so his advice to the couple is always that the WS must leave the job. But what if the WS won't leave the job? What if he claims to be unable to afford to leave, or says that working with OW has nothing to do with continuing the affair, or puts up a half-hearted effort to look for another job? Bottom line: he is claiming to want to stay with his wife, but won't leave his job. That is where the rest of the statement - the section that you quoted - comes in:

While I unhesitatingly recommend exposing the affair to friends, family, clergy, children and the lover's spouse, I'm not so quick to suggest exposing it to an employer. That's because such exposure could have unintended legal and economic consequences. For example, the affair might constitute grounds for a sexual harassment claim by the unfaithful spouse's lover. Or it might trigger the outright firing of the spouse, making it far more difficult for them to find another job.

So in those cases I usually advise the betrayed spouse to warn the unfaithful spouse he or she will expose the affair to the employer in a month if the unfaithful spouse is still working there, giving him or her time to make a graceful exit from the job to another. Even if a new job cannot be found in a month, I recommend waiting no longer to inform the employer, unless the unfaithful spouse has already resigned
.

The wife who warns her husband that she will expose the affair in a month is giving him time to "make a graceful exit from the job" if he is serious about saving his marriage. The only reason she warns him is because he claims to want to keep the marriage together. But if he keeps playing games with her, giving reasons why he can't find another job and refuses to resign while looking for one, she exposes after no longer than a month, because he is putting her at risk of the affair continuing.

The BW warns the WS when attempts are being made by the WS to keep the marriage together. If you warn your WS (leaving aside, for the moment, that you say you cannot), he will not resign from his job in order to keep his marriage together. He does not want to keep the marriage together, so he says. If you warn him, he might resign or find another job because he wants an unblemished employment record, but he won't be doing that to keep his marriage together. He won't go back to you as a result of resigning. All you will have achieved is that your WS will find another job. Finding another job will not end the affair, because he lives with OW right now.

Getting a WS out of the specific workplace is done so that he cannot see OW any more. This obviously applies to the WS who is still living with his wife, where the workplace is the main point of contact. If the WS is trying to save the marriage, then cutting off contact with OW is the first step, and getting him out of the job, along with changing contact details and possibly moving house, can do that. The job is their place of contact, so that avenue must be blocked.

Getting YOUR WS out of that workplace is not the issue. He lives with OW, and so he can find another job, and his affair will continue. The point of exposure in your case is ONLY this:

So when a betrayed spouse asks for my advice, I usually take the position that infidelity is the greatest betrayal of all. After an affair, trust, which is an essential ingredient in marriage, is dashed. If the unfaithful spouse is offended by being exposed, so be it. Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery.

Dr Harley would never endorse the position that you have wilfully boxed yourself into, where you claim not to be able to warn your WH, and thus cannot complete the workplace exposure. Dr H is 100% pro exposure as a strategy to end an affair. Your case is not an exception.


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Originally Posted by FL2BoysMom
So if you don't want to support me in figuring out how I can give him this 30 day notice, then fine. But I'm going to stick with exactly what Dr. Harley has written.

You took his advice out of context. He is writing to the couple who is still together. The advanced warning is a good will gesture issued to give the WS the opportunity to gracefully leave the job.

If you don't want to take the advice here, then don't. But please don't waste time on the forum arguing about how you are not going to take the advice.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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You nailed it here, in your post last Wednesday:

Originally Posted by FL2BoysMom
I know the company should know about her, what a manipulator she is, how she sexually harassed my husband, threatening his promotion, making him feel like *I* was the one putting his job in jeopardy, instead of THEM putting their own jobs in jeopardy.

There is nothing I want more than to someone that is an 'authority' to them, to tell them, "No, you flirted with a married man and opined to him about how bad you felt for him because he had such an unhappy home life"... and then you allowed him to behave inappropriately with you via FB and text messages, and when the wife confronted you and told you that as his BOSS, you needed to tell him to stop because it opens the company up to a sexual harassment lawsuit, instead of telling him to stop, you threatened his 'future' promotion, putting the company at risk of a sexual harassment suit yourself and this is you and him, and ONLY you and him, jeopardized your jobs. She had every right to demand that it stop, and to threaten to report it to us if it didn't, and to report it to us once she found him living in your home."
What made you back down from that, to the point where you do not want to expose because you think you will make things worse between you and your H?


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Originally Posted by FL2BoysMom
I do not want to add any more people to the "Your wife is a crazy psycho" team.
So from what I'm reading, this fear of what people think of you is more important to you than your marriage.

I'm not judging or debating your fear. We all had that fear so I won't argue with you there.

It's just that...

ALL of us here who went before you...ALL of the BS here on the boards that have recovered our marriage and lived through the worst thing that ever happened to us...ALL of us somehow got to the point where we realized that If We Want to Save Our Marriage, We Have to Stop Putting on Fronts to Cover for Our Spouse.

You're not to that point obviously. I'm sorry FL2. You're dealing with the deck entirely stacked against you with this LONG TERM affair. There is no hope until you can get to the point where you care more about your marriage than what other people say or think of you.


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Wonderful post SugarCane!


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BlindSighted, no, I'm not concerned with what 'they' think of me, but with what they will 'support him' in believing about me.

He has 100 people on his side, saying I'm crazy.

No one on MY side saying "You are crazy."

This is a war and the numbers favor him already. I'm not going to recruit an even bigger army for him and his side.

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Originally Posted by FL2BoysMom
BlindSighted, no, I'm not concerned with what 'they' think of me, but with what they will 'support him' in believing about me.

He has 100 people on his side, saying I'm crazy.

No one on MY side saying "You are crazy."

This is a war and the numbers favor him already. I'm not going to recruit an even bigger army for him and his side.

You're missing the forest for the tree. It's not about numbers or "winning." It's about getting the truth out there. The truth will always melt away the lies.


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Originally Posted by FL2BoysMom
BlindSighted, no, I'm not concerned with what 'they' think of me, but with what they will 'support him' in believing about me.

The OW won't be able to "recruit an army" if you expose her to the employer. By not exposing you are ENABLING her and her army. Whose side are you on?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I am probably going to expose his boss for obvious ethical reasons, and tonight I told our kids about the affair. We all cried. My youngest called him a [censored] and my oldest said "What a piece of sh*t." (They both apologized for their language.) They were very upset, we all cried. They seem to be ok now, I'm anything but ok.

I am not going to PM any of their friends on FB.

Other than that, I don't know what to do next. I am teetering on the brink right now.




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So who on OW's side will you be exposing to?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Her job and our state mental health board.

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Originally Posted by FL2BoysMom
Her job and our state mental health board.
What about her parents and any siblings?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Your kids will be okay eventually.

It is best they know the truth.

It will give them clarity in life and trust in you.








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She has no parents. No idea who were father was. Mother was a crackhead, she's dead. Aunt is the worthless POS who was calling me and harassing me. (Trailer park, white trash.) I have no idea what other family she has or doesn't have.

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FL2 good job on being truthful to your children.

My wish is for you to reconsider and at least expose to her key friends on FB, as well as your husband's key friends. We want them both to think that "everyone" knows.

You only need to tell the simple truth and aks for help in 2-3 short paragraphs.

We encourage you get all of the rest of your exposure done today and then we will help you to get into Plan B.



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I have no idea who her key friends would be, and I've already asked his key friends for help before I knew about the affair and they all refused. Said they 'didn't want to get involved.' As did all my own friends.

This is as far as I am going.

I'm not going to send him a letter telling him I don't want him to contact me when he's already said he doesn't want to talk to me at all.

He refuses to call anyone who even knows me to talk to the kids. He will only call them if I text him, or one of my friends texts him first.

He is under the impression that because he has no legal or financial obligations to the kids, he has no moral or emotional obligation to them either... and the last thing I'm going to do is 'push' him to stop all contact with them.

It isn't fair to them. I'm trying to get him to come around to seeing them, because right now, all they get are phone calls and lies.

And without anyone to 'push' him, 'whisper in his ear,' "You need to see your kids" and me not being able to send him texts about them, or pictures of them, they're going to just fade from his memory.

In fact, I think his refusal to see them is his way of trying to just 'fade away' slowly until they forget him (ain't gonna work, but try finding a counselor with the 'straight talk' cajones to tell him that, because nothing come from MY mouth is going to matter.) He's obviously deluding himself into thinking that the 'fade away slowly' approach is 'less painful' than just ripping the band aid of and disappearing or just outright telling them, "Look, I don't care about either of you, I'm not your father."

In fact, a couple of months ago, he even told them, "You know I'm not your father. I'm step father. And I've stepped up and done more than any step father is ever asked to do."

He is too far gone in his delusions for anything but an independent third party with some 'authority' on these matters stepping in and telling him, "You ARE hurting those kids."

And frankly, my only concern in the world right now is finding the 3rd party with the skills to do it, in spite of 'not knowing him.'


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Did you have a question about the Marriage Builders program for the board? If you are not going to follow this program, there is no reason to keep this thread open.

What is your question for the board?


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