I expressly asked him to stop trying to punish Son. When Son was 14, H pointed out to Son how parents provided everything and had to power to withhold it if Son did not do the things required of him. At the time it freaked Son out. I stepped in at that point and asked H to back off and work on a positive relationship with Son and let me work with him on getting cooperation. This is what we have done and it was working well until Thursday. Why H picked that day to end it, I don't know.

Probably because he was never enthusiastic about it. You say that it was working well, but this seems not to have been his perspective. Of course, he should not have gone along with a course of action about which he was unhappy or had misgivings, but (I take it) he did not know about POJA during these years.

The problems is that, today, you should not want to him to continue with this arrangement that you found to be working well, if he was and is unhappy with it. You must not gain your desires at his expense.

The solution is on P 237 of Love Busters:

That seems to apply directly to your husband's frustrations that eventually led him to the impulsive and foolish ultimatum that led to your son packing his things and leaving.

Dr Harley goes on to sum up the case that is the focus of that section:

However, unlike David in that example, your son is now an adult, with his own job, paying his own way while he lives with you. In that sense he is not the same sort of "child" that Dr Harley discusses in that chapter. In fact, in the private forum, Dr Harley tells a poster than in his views, boys (and their families) are better off if the boy leaves home very early. Dr Harley himself was on his own at 16, his son Steve at 19, and Steve's son also at 19, and it was the making of them as men. He implies that if they are no trouble living at home, and if they pay they own way while there, there is no need to get them to leave, but if they are troublesome, they need to go. Their bad behaviour causes problems for the marriage, as you can see in your own case.

What I conclude from these various bits of advice is that you two should decide whether you both enthusiastically want your son to live at home for now, and under what conditions. Are you both only enthusiastic if he has a job, pays his way, is not actively rude and helps out a bit? Does he do those things most of the time? Is there anything you can do to ensure that he does those things - such as drawing up a contract? Is it still appropriate to use the discipline methods (more praise than criticism) that you used when he was 14? These are all issues for you to brainstorm.

If your husband wasn't happy with how things were, then you need to respect his view and discuss what to do about it. In both your accounts, it sounds as if you are rather too convinced that you know what is best, and that you insist upon it; and as you know, that won't do, and you can see the results today. Your son is not home, and you are at war with your husband.

I don't necessarily know what is best but I do know what doesn't work. I am no longer interested in UA time. It doesn't work. The more time we spend together the worse it gets. Thank you all for your help.

Everyone seems to take two steps back at first because you are discovering tthe reluctant agreements your spouse made.

The default in this case would be no adults but you living in the house unless you are both in enthusiatic agreement.

How did you get from what I posted, to stating that UA time does not work? Am I missing something?

Hi. I have been reading along and I understand why you don't want UA with your H. Dr Harley would say to stop having it until your H can prove that he is safe enough to go out with.

The issue with your son is just one more thing. It seems like this is still just one of a host of issues going on here. It is also OK for you to be unwilling to negotiate with him while he is still Love busting you. Rule one of negotiation is to make it pleasant and safe.

Are you trying to tell us you are giving up?
I am confused as to exactly what you mean but would agree that UA should stop until he can tell you that he will be safe enough to date.

I would also say it is time for a separation on your side because of the abuse going on. Just to be safe:
Can you write Dr. H again yourself? He loves and encourages couples to update him.

The above is a selfish demand.

Why? That is what I would like. It is information about what would make me happy.

I think it would only be a demand if it rose to the level of "it's this way or else"

"Honey, what you did by taking away son's privileges was independent behavior and hurt me terribly. I would love an apology."

Saying it that way would not be a selfish demand.

How about this:

"I would also appreciate it if you would give son back his privileges of laundry and shower until we can negotiate a plan that we are both in agreement about. If you are willing to do that, I am willing to sit with you on xyz day at xyz time to negotiate a win win solution to your problem of son's lack of responsibility. And I will continue to work with you until an agreement is reached, even if it means discussing it on the radio show or with Dr. Harley."

What do you think about that?

Thats what her previous reply sounded like.

But wasnt IW behaving independently by insisting son stay on her terms?

We are not talking about a child, but an 18yo man. The son was 14 when the unhappy agreement was made.

Read : "give me what I want now or I won't work with you."

IJ has already said he is not in agreement with that plan. He was reluctant 4 years ago. He sounds fed up now.

I refer everyone to Kat37's thread and the advice she was given about her husband's support of a disrespectful son.

"how would you feel about sitting down on xyz day at this time to discuss a plan for dealing with son that we are mutually enthusiastic about?"

I'm not seeing where she insisted or behaved independently.

Then he definitely needs to calm down so he can negotiate a solution that is a win for both of them.

It is clear that indianaswife is willing to learn to avoid demands. It is not clear that indianajordan is, though. We need to get the beam out of his eye here before we chastise iw over a possible mote.

Okay, Kat wasn't told to unilaterally come up with a new way to discipline their son.

Which is what IJ did.

And the kid is 18, not 12 like Kat's son.

This is a different situation, apples. The 18 year doesn't need the discipline that the 12 year old needs. Because IJ didn't like the way they agreed to discipline their son years ago doesn't not give him permission to just up and kick their son out today without talking it over with his wife.

The real problem here is IJ's lack of care for his wife. And he needs to undo the IB he has done by removing the consequences he unilaterally put on on his son and allowing the son to come home if the son wants to. Then IJ and his wife can negotiate how they want their son to live under their roof. Until they agree, the son can come and go as he pleases (they do nothing).

***EDIT***

***EDIT***

A warning to all posters not to argue over advice on the thread.