I am starting my own thread to get advice separately from my husband. I appreciate the input so far. Your assessment of my feelings is absolutely bang on. I felt relieved that I have not lost my mind. So, my husband is depressed and keeps presenting that he really needs a vacation. Of course I am not going to go so he suggested he go alone. He doesn't see that this is not in line with the program. He feels I have been abusing him and so it would be an acceptable exception to the POJA. What is your advice to me given the situation I am in? I honestly dread discussing anything with him anymore.

Dr. Harley advises couples to never spend a night apart from each other.

And refusing to go to the beach is not abuse. Refusing to do anything is not abuse. Abuse is something that one spouse DOES to another.

The two of you should stay home and start going out on dates 20 hours a week.

You are absolutely doing the right thing by not agreeing to his selfish demands. Making sacrifices to his demands will only create resentment and incompatibility. I would advise you to ignore his selfish demands and immerse yourself in the program so you will understand how it works.

Do you have the book lovebusters? I think it will be a real eye opener for you. Another fantastic resource is the MB radio show that is on every day. You can listen to it free any day on the MB app.

Effective Marriage Counseling pg 112 - 113

What about Resentment?

One of the most common objections to the POJA is that it creates
resentment when it�s followed. I agree; it does usually create some
resentment. But far more resentment is created when it is not followed.
An illustration will help make this important point.

George is invited to watch football with his friend Sam. He tells
his wife, Sue, that he plans to accept the invitation. Sue objects.

If George goes ahead and watches the game, he�s guilty of independent
behavior. He is not following the POJA, and Sue will be resentful.
When George does something against the wishes of Sue, I call
her resentment type A.

If George follows the POJA and doesn�t accept Sam�s invitation,
George will be resentful. When George is prevented from doing something
because of Sue�s objections, I call his resentment type B.

Which type of resentment makes the largest Love Bank withdrawals:
type A or type B? The answer is type A, and that�s why the POJA
helps build Love Bank balances. I�ll explain.

When George violates the POJA, Sue has no choice but to feel
the effect of the thoughtless decision (Love Bank withdrawals) for
as long as memory persists�possibly for life whenever the event is
recalled. But when George follows the POJA, the negative effect is
limited in time. It lasts only as long as it takes to discover an enjoyable
alternative that is acceptable to Sue.

George lets Sue know how disappointed he is with her objection
but is willing to discuss other options. Sue wasn�t invited to watch
football and doesn�t want to invite herself to Sam�s house, so she
suggests inviting Sam and his wife to their house to watch football.
George calls Sam, he and his wife accept, and the new activity puts
an end to George�s type B resentment.

Type A resentment can last forever, but type B resentment stops
the moment a mutually enjoyable alternative is discovered. Those
with poor negotiating skills may have trouble seeing the difference
because they have not learned how to resolve conflicts. They may
feel resentment about a host of issues that have been unresolved in
their marriage. But after you teach a couple to negotiate successfully,
unresolved issues are minimized. Then it becomes clear to
them that the POJA helps build Love Bank balances by eliminating
type A resentment.

Spending 15-20 hours with my husband feels like torture. He disrespects me, talks over me, lectures, is sarcastic, and has often been angry. His tone is regularily condescending and ridiculing. How am I supposed to get through 15 hours when it is so unpleasant?

Do you mean you don't find that appealing and attractive???

Maybe the best place to start would be a focus on eliminating lovebusters? WE don't want you to spend more time with him if it will make things worse until lovebusters are eliminated.

While I don't think you should EVER AGREE to go a beach setting again, would you feel more open to vacations with him if he eliminated lovebusters and learned to be attractive and appealing?

iw, I would suggest that you offer to let your husband have the chance to spend time with you IF he will stop the behaviors you are describing. He can learn to stop that from the book Love Busters and from Dr. Harley's radio show and from your feedback. Make the agreement that if he will stop these behaviors, you'll give him the chance to try to spend time with you.

I would also insist that he get medical treatment for his depression. You can't really pull him out of that. He needs to see a doctor and get some short term antidepressants and then together the two of you can work on building a happy marriage if he will eliminate the abusive behaviors.

I am going to insist on the treatment for depression. What does "insisting" look like?

Tell him you're not going to entertain any more discussion about vacations or Marriage Builders until he sees a doctor about getting some antidepressants. Since he is claiming his depression means you HAVE to do what he wants, he needs to get that issue treated and taken off of the table so that you can talk together about building a good marriage as equals who don't make demands of each other.

Tell him that if he doesn't like this the two of you can get a second opinion from Dr. Willard Harley from Marriage Builders - you can email Dr. Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. Dr. Harley is a clinical psychologist and used to treat a lot of conditions including depression. He doesn't believe in antidepressant medication for life: he believes in using it for the short term so that you can even out the emotional highs and lows and focus rationally on working a plan to make your life better. Dr. Harley is the author of all the books your husband claims to love so much, like His Needs Her Needs (which he has revised a LOT in the last several years!!!), so hopefully your husband will respect his opinion.

Last night I decided to sleep in the spare room. He came up and got in bed with me. I asked him to leave. He wouldn't. So I came back downstairs and he followed me. I tried to leave the house but he insisted on coming with me. I tried everything to get him to leave me alone. He kept saying "Harley says not to spend a night apart and you are supposed to ask how I would feel about you sleeping upstairs". I think he has lost his mind and I want him out of the house. Do you agree?

He refuses to accept help, won't listen to me, doesn't listen much to you all and we have been at this for 10 years. I am just done.

iw, again, I would make him the offer that he can stay with you IF he can learn to stop being abusive - that means stopping these three behaviors:

Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts

Dr. Harley teaches how to overcome these behaviors in Love Busters and on the daily radio show, and we also help with it here.

This is basically what my wife did to me 4 years ago - she told me that I needed to leave if I wouldn't give up my angry outbursts. I had a couple weeks of what I like to call "Super 8 Motel therapy," which is very effective!

What do you think of this idea?

I have said this several times and given him too many chances. It is time for Motel 8 Therapy. But he won't leave unless he hears it from you he says.

You should just change the locks. Please read my "What to do with an angry husband" link in my signature.

IF he starts following the program, would you welcome him back? Or are you done completely, regardless?

I think he has to get treatment separately from me first. I have been in counselling on an ongoing basis and am at the point where if he doesn't get help now I am not going to be able to stay with him. It does neither of us any good. As you can hear he twists the MB concepts to fit what he wants. I don't know if treating the depression will help with that or not. He has kind of missed the whole point of the program. We have so many reasons to make it work but so many awful things have been said to me that I need to get past and I will. However, I will not tolerate the love busters any more. I am 100% committed to doing whatever is up to me to have a healthy relationship. From here on in it will be up to him.

Does anyone have any suggestions for anything else I should try?

Prisca has herself done what she told you to do and it worked. Why would you not follow her advice?

I agree. He needs to get to the doctor and get on anti-depressants. He also needs to get into an anger management program that focuses on relaxation techniques. You need to be very picky about the anger management that he takes -- not all programs are created equal.

If I were you, I would also require him to talk to Dr. Harley himself. The best man to set him straight on how to use the program is the man who created it.

You should most definitely separate until he does these things.

iw, I would really encourage you to get in touch with Dr. Harley. Send him and his wife Joyce an email at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com describing the problems your husband causes for you.

See IW? There IS hope!

I am So proud of you! You handled that difficult topic in such a polished and systematic way.

Thanks for being willing to share your situation with the listeners. That took lots of courage.

Having been in a similar situation, I can assure you things can all come together, with a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

Spelled out:
Eliminate the contrast effect
Follow the Policy of Sexual Exclusivity
Plan to meet needs in a mutually motivating way
Be cautious with type of ADs
Seek hormone replacement/meds for Age Related Sexual Dysfunction.

Don't you just love how diplomatic and nonthreatening Dr. Harley can be?

Once again, great job!

Was IW on the radio, DQ?

Yep.

Yes.

What an awesome radio show. Joyce even cracked a funny joke. Lol.
Would be nice to add the link to the thread on porn. Hint hint Brainy.

On my list. Thanks for the heads up.

I worded that as if it was an exception when it isn't.

Wow you all recognized that it was me right away?!!!! Yes I had a very good conversation with both Joyce and Dr. Harley before the program and I was so glad for the clarification from "the horse's mouth" (said with great respect)! It is at times hard to know for sure how exactly a concept is to be applied, and while I am pretty confident in my interpretations of things I read, I was beginning to think I was losing it. I am grateful for the input from all of you and the Harley's. We'll see how things develop now.

Of course we recognized you by your situation. I have empathy for your situation and seriously hope that you and your husband can get going in the right direction.

Often we interpret things the way we want to see them because we are blinded to alternative solutions which would make us happy. That is the case with your husband. He believes that his happiness can only be achieved if you lose 15 or 25 lbs. And he is so focused on that solution that he is making himself and you miserable.

Bravo Indianaswife!! What did you think about the advice you got? Did your husband listen to the show?

IW, I can totally relate with your issues with weight loss. There is so much misinformation out there about weight loss. I started an intermittent fasting program last May and have lost 16 pounds and have completely reversed my Type 2 diabetes. I do fasting and eat low carb on eating days. Here is the program that has worked for me: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fix-broken-metabolism/

Can someone post a link here so I can access the program I was on at any time? I will record it to my phone. My husband is listenening to the program right now.

The show hasn't posted yet in archives so for now you can listen to it on rebroadcast. I thought it was interesting that Dr Harley identified that there is something behind his unreasonable expectations of your physical appearance. He rightly concluded that your husband is comparing you to someone else and that is a big part of the problem.

My husband says he is only comparing me to myself when we married. Which I think is just as bad, because I am not the same person I was when we married

According to his previous posts, he is comparing you at least to the women he saw at the beach.

No, he also talked about wanting to be around other women in bikinis so that he can be aroused. That kind of comparison is going on there even if he doesn't realize it. The only way he can stop it is by stopping certain behaviors like Dr. Harley mentioned in the show.

I am so glad that you went straight to Dr. Harley! I'm curious: was your husband asked if he wanted to participate in the show?

For what it's worth I think your show was a particularly great one that we will want to hang onto for years to reference for people in similar situations. We have seen a number of "my husband says the problem in our marriage is my appearance" situations on this board.

NOT TRUE! He compares you to the women on the beach and the women in the porn movies he watched. He openly said he liked to get "aroused" by the women on the beach.

That is why I called your husband a "comparer"on his thread. My intent was not to be disrespectful, but to point out a disrespectful and self-destructive habit. It actually robs your husband of the positive emotional reactions he COULD have if he put all of his eggs in your basket and thought of you as his one and only forever. There is no good point in devaluing his prized wife, by pitting your qualities against various and sundry non-realities.

Let's just say that his only comparison was to you at your wedding day weight (which it's not). It is not helping himself or you for him to be lamenting that emotional loss, aka your weight gain. By focusing on that exclusively, as a reason for his unhappiness, he is going to continue to be miserable.

I can tell you from personal experience that depressed people tend to look for reasons for their unhappiness and notice how their lot in life is worse than others' or worse than it used to be. It's like crying over spilt milk. They want to go back to the "good ole days" or fantasize or escape instead of finding the good ole days in the present and improving on it. Yes, negatives they point out are REAL. Unfortunately, his wife gained weight. That is a REAL disappointment for him. But fortunately for him, his wife would like to lose weight. And if he stops comparing, this will help significantly with his own problem of disappointment and inner conflict. It will help him appreciate the efforts you ARE making to meet this need. How can he be turned on by someone he is judging harshly and comparing unfavorably to others or even her own more favorable state? He can't. And he needs to start solving that problem from other angles as well. (ETA ref to sexual trouble)

In addition to eliminating the contrast effect by controlling his environment and fantasizing, he needs to be exploring every idea that Dr. H brought up. I roughly summarized them for you a few posts ago.

One concern is that depressed people usually don't want meds because it is complicated, and they can't reason through things with a hopeful attitude. What I can say is that each and every step is important to work on. What makes the most difference in my husband's depression is the hormonal therapy, along with meds. A chemical problem cannot be solved by having your wife perfect her appearance to give you a temporary drug-like rush to compensate for depression or to compete with a comparison of any type.

You are a level-headed woman. I imagine that you have considered many of these things. Don't let this destroy you. You are beautiful and lovable. And you have 7 kids to prove it.

On a different note, you might consider contact lenses or Lasik so that hubby can focus on your pretty eyes.

IW, what did your husband think of your conversation with Dr Harley? Is he going to call him?

He emailed last night.

So glad.

Radio Clip of Indianswife's Show

Markos: The Harley's did ask me if I wanted him to be on the program, but at that point he was feeling very unwell and had no energy to even email.

Brainhurts: Thanks. I appreciate that.

MelodyLane: Thanks for the article, you have to love this: ""However, by lowering insulin drastically during fasting or alternate daily fasting, the body does not shut down. Instead, it switches fuel sources. No food in coming in. Insulin falls. Your body has a choice. It can reduce calorie expenditure to zero, also known technically as �dropping dead�."" LOL.

Of course I am going to try this. I have heard of it in other places but there is so much misinformation about it out there.

I really have enormous respect for Dr Fung and so does my local doctor. My doctor is really happy with the results so far. In fact, it has completely reversed my type 2 diabetes and I am off all meds now.

If you need any help, let me know!

So...I listened to the radio program my husband did yesterday. Are you kidding me??? For 10 years I have been hearing regularly how much my weight causes him so much pain, and now all of a sudden I am unattractive because of a more important underlying reason, because I interrupt, change the topic, and don't answer his questions. WHAAAAAAAATTTTT??????

4 months ago, my husband told me our marriage is better than it has ever been because I am meeting his needs well, except for Attractive Spouse, and much of me was attractive.

However, the parts of me that were unattractive caused him so much pain and he felt was responsible for the pain in his gut and the fact that I put off our December vacation to mid January caused his depression.

We argued about his application of the Marriage Builders material. Now he is saying it is something different.

But we are supposed to go out and have a good time together. I asked him the same question Joyce did, because there was a significant pause between her question and his "Yes, now" answer. I asked him if he truly did realize how hurtful and offensive his comments have been or if he just said Yes because he knows that is the right answer. His response was something to the effect that he only lashed out at me because I was causing him so much pain.

So my question is: Why did Dr. Harley not address this terrible pain that justifies what he has been saying to me? Why is it that no one has said, "yes, you have been saying hurtful and offensive things but it is understandable because of the pain you are in from not having your need met"?

This is the reason we came to the forum. My husband talked of separation because he is in so much pain. He thought it was from my weight, now it turns out it is my communication.

Today we talked for at least 1.5 hours. It was mostly good, but then he wanted to have sex. I said I did not want to. He wanted to know if that was fair, that he meet my need but I not meet his. I am numb. I don't feel anything. Are these simply rules to be followed regardless of how I feel?

You should follow up with an email and ask Dr. Harley. He will explain it well.

Yes I have done so..

Good for you for showing up for the UA even when you're not feeling it. Which stuff you work on, conversation or attractive spouse, isn't going to be what saves your marriage, it's the goodwill and trust you two build in addressing concerns and showing up for the UA time. The SF will come you'll know when it's time. Keep coming back when you have concerns.

Did we listen to the same show?? The point that Dr Harley was trying to make to your husband is that other elements of your relationship can effect his feelings about your attractiveness. Some of those elements could be fighting. The most important one is the contrast effect, which was his main focus.


That tells me that you have been doing a good job but the contrast effect has had been the major impediment.


Stop arguing and start following the program.


Stop asking him. What counts is that he stops being disrespectful.


There is no justification for the terrible things he has been saying. I am not sure what you are asking here.


Of course you shouldn't have sex if you don't want to. Did your husband not listen to Dr Harley? Dr H made this very clear that needs must be met in a way that makes you both happy.

Please stop talking about your relationship and start doing fun things.

Listen to the show again. Take notes. Now that you have had your initial emotional response, listen to what is said. You may not be hearing the full message because one part bothers you.

Ok apples123 you are right. I had an emotional response and got stuck on the introduction. But everything the Harley's said was excellent. Unfortunately, the "lightbulb" didn't happen. When I asked him if he did recognize how hurtful and offensive the things he says are, he said he lashes out at me because my weight causes him so much pain. I guess I am looking for some kind of acknowledgement that he has been so hurtful, and maybe a really heartfelt apology. I hoped that Dr. Harley telling him that his words have been inappropriate and hurtful would finally get through to him. Pretty unrealistic, right?

Now he is mad because I am not having sex with him. I know...go out together and have fun. Do the 20 hours and get on with it. Yuck.

He lashes out at you because he is disrespectful and rude. You don't need an apology, you need him to agree to stop being disrespectful. I wouldn't get hung up on an apology.

I wouldn't talk anymore about the past. Focus all of your attention on the present.


What do you mean he is "mad?"

Don't start conversations where he is backed in to a corner. They aren't fair and you will not get what you want. Basically you are picking a fight, trying to force him to see things your way.

Such discussions will not repair your marriage. Your feelings TELL you that it would be nice, but it will not fulfill you and will repair nothing. Many wives get caught up on trying to get their husband to understand, or trying to get their husband to see how hurtful they have been, and it sends the marriage in to a downward spiral.

If you follow this program, these feelings you have will go away.

It's simple. Follow the program, things will get better. Don't, and things will not.

I think the "lightbulb" you need him to see is this, and it is a Marriage Builders rule:

NEVER EVER CAUSE PAIN TO YOUR SPOUSE EVEN IF YOU FEEL LIKE THEY ARE CAUSING YOU PAIN.

Or as I heard Dr. Harley put it one time "Don't break the rules, even if your spouse is breaking the rules."

In this case, he's been thinking you are breaking the rules, and reacting by hurting you. Dr. Harley explained very well why you are NOT breaking the rules, but even if your husband doesn't get that, he STILL absolutely needs to follow the rule of not reacting by hurting you. No matter what happens, no matter what you do, he needs to follow the rule that he will not engage in demands, disrespectful judgments, or angry outbursts.

Otherwise you have a situation where if you want him to not abuse you (demands/disrespect/anger) you have to EARN it. That's not fair, it's wrong, and I can't see how you could possibly be in love with him under such an arrangement. Noone could. And if what he's wanting is sex and/or weight loss, he needs you to be in love with him.

You might consider showing him this post.

No, not if he's being demanding, disrespectful, and/or angry.

Marriage Builders rules all have the same goal: a marriage of extraordinary care where the spouses are empathetic toward each other and never do things that they both are not happy with doing. The rules are being applied properly when they achieve these goals, and are being applied improperly when they do not.

It is not necessary to understand all the details of your husband's position to know that he has it all wrong. It is obvious.

BrainHurts, can you put the Radio Program from Tuesday May 24 here for me? I emailed some further questions and received an email back that they were answered on this show, but I missed it.

I have added it to my list and as soon as it has loaded in the archives I will post it.

Here they are.

Radio Clip of Indianswife's Follow-up
Segment #2

Thanks BrainHurts. So, a few days ago my husband wanted some help with the garage, and my 18 year old son was home from work because he sprained his wrist. He normally works full time, has his own car, is very responsible. However he and my husband have butted heads over how much work my son has to do around our home and farm. Husband went in and asked son to come help him right now. Son said he did not want to. Husband told son he no longer had laundry and shower privileges. Son got upset, packed his stuff and left. He has been gone for 4 days now. Husband did all this without my agreement. In fact, I expressly asked him not to do this. I have asked my husband to withdraw his punishment and apologize, so that things could go back the way they were. Husband does not want to. I want my son to be able to live here in peace. What do you all think?

Also, I stopped having sex with him after this incident with our son, and I notice that my husband is now very careful not to show me any affection. He says that since marriage is contractual, if I am not meeting his need for sex, he should not meet my need for affection. What is your response to that?

I think I would agree with him and say "You're right, husband - marriage is contractual, and I don't feel enthusiastic about meeting your emotional needs when you are engaging in independent behavior and doing what you want with our son no matter how I feel about it, and when you are refusing to meet my need for affection. In fact, I don't think our marriage can survive if you continue to behave like this. Do you want me to feel in love with you and feel enthusiastic about making love to you? If so, the way you are going about it is completely wrong, because you are not doing things that make me feel good - you are behaving in a way that disgusts me. Marriage is about making each other happy and you are choosing to act in ways that make me miserable. If you want us to stay married I am going to need you to quit running rough shod over my feelings and doing whatever you want, and start meeting my emotional needs, because otherwise, what we have now is not a marriage at all, to me. Would you like to contact Dr. Harley together and get some help?"

In other words, call his bluff: "Sure, marriage is a contract, great idea: YOU GO FIRST."

That's absolutely in keeping with Dr. Harley, by the way. According to Dr. Harley, in most situations, the husband needs to be the one doing the pursuing. That means he needs to be meeting your emotional needs and meeting them well in order to expect reciprocation, rather than expecting you to go first and meet his. When something has gone wrong, the husband gets to be the pump primer to get things started again. The wife can't do it.

When I showed him this he begins to argue that I have not given important information. He began to argue that he talked to me before he talked to son and I would not negotiate with him. So I interrupted him, saying I do not want to argue, I just wanted him to hear this. He got angry and said I have made the discussion very unpleasant. Now what?

Now he has left. He informs me he is going for some recreational time and will join me in town later. He wants you to know that he is not showing affection because he does not feel anything towards me, not because of sex. I did not ask him how he would feel if I went to see my counsellor today that he does not need to ask how I feel about anything.

I'd say tell him "it's up to you - if you want to turn this around you can have a talk with Dr. Harley about how to start making me happy so I will be in love with you and enthusiastic about meeting your emotional needs again. If you don't feel like doing that, it doesn't seem like we have much of a marriage."

Indianajordan, if you are reading this, please pull your head out of your anus and get back on this forum or back in touch with Dr. Harley. The first Marriage Builders is to not be a horse's butt to your wife.

My wife and I both think your husband needs a healthy dose of the speech Dr. Harley recommends in this article:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

The letter from Dr. Harley there is addressed to a formerly wayward wife, but I think it definitely applies in your case. If you aren't certain, please feel free to run it by Dr. Harley and see if he thinks markos's suggestion is a propos here.

Here's how the speech goes:

" I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. ... if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."

Your husband needs to step back and analyze his strategy, because he has set himself up in such a way that the only possible outcome is for him to lose. What is his best possible outcome? Reluctant SF? Compared to a romantic relationship, that result is a total failure.

Today he started with "ok, you're in charge, tell me what you want me to do, you are in control". Then on to "you've read about how men get when they haven't had sex for too long" and then silence. The comment about an adversarial relationship resonated with me, that is how it feels. It seems no matter how much I try to be giving and not so sensitive to things, it is not enough and not good enough. He has said a few times that he feels trapped so I wonder how can he be nice and pleasant to someone he views this way? Honestly, the way he treats me and talks to me why am I still here?

Wow, he really knows how to chat up the ladies, doesn't he? With lines like that he could get anyone into bed!

Is he nuts????

I wouldn't be.

Charming.

Wow, how turned on you must be! Yuck!!

That silver tongued devil!

Interesting observations about my husband and his threats of an affair. I have thought for some time that the message is stronger, that he actually is determined to have an affair. He keeps telling me "needs will not go unmet (HNHN)". At the same time he makes clear that I don't meet his needs well and even if I start now, he will always remember the 20 years where I was not. The masturbation stuff over the last 5 years was a trial run to see if he could pull off a secret life. I see the handwriting on the wall.

iw, what precisely are you referring to when you say "husband did all this without my agreement"? What "all" did he do?

What did you "expressly ask him not to do"?

What is the punishment that you wish to be withdrawn?

H went to son (who had a sprained wrist) and asked him for help in the garage. When son declined, saying he had other plans (laundry etc) H said he would have to take away privileges. (this is an 18 year old who works full time, has his own car and pays his own bills. He lives here and does some regular chores like everyone else). H then requested his keys for the laundry and shower facilities we have in another building.

I had requested H not give a punishment for not doing what H wanted him to do. I requested positive motivation or an agreement with Son to elicit his cooperation. I have been able to do this with him. He is a reasonable person who just doesn't want to be threatened. H wants to be able to say "do this" and have him do it immediately and then mete out a "consequence" if he doesn't do it. Fine for a 10 year old but not 18.

I want H to apologize to Son, assure him he will stop threatening and ask him to come home so we can start again from before Son left. I would then be willing to negotiate how things should be handled going forward. Son wants to be home but is not willing to put up with his Dad's " do this or else" attitude. Come to think of it, neither am I.

I expressly asked him to stop trying to punish Son. When Son was 14, H pointed out to Son how parents provided everything and had to power to withhold it if Son did not do the things required of him. At the time it freaked Son out. I stepped in at that point and asked H to back off and work on a positive relationship with Son and let me work with him on getting cooperation. This is what we have done and it was working well until Thursday. Why H picked that day to end it, I don't know.

Probably because he was never enthusiastic about it. You say that it was working well, but this seems not to have been his perspective. Of course, he should not have gone along with a course of action about which he was unhappy or had misgivings, but (I take it) he did not know about POJA during these years.

The problems is that, today, you should not want to him to continue with this arrangement that you found to be working well, if he was and is unhappy with it. You must not gain your desires at his expense.

The solution is on P 237 of Love Busters:

That seems to apply directly to your husband's frustrations that eventually led him to the impulsive and foolish ultimatum that led to your son packing his things and leaving.

Dr Harley goes on to sum up the case that is the focus of that section:

However, unlike David in that example, your son is now an adult, with his own job, paying his own way while he lives with you. In that sense he is not the same sort of "child" that Dr Harley discusses in that chapter. In fact, in the private forum, Dr Harley tells a poster than in his views, boys (and their families) are better off if the boy leaves home very early. Dr Harley himself was on his own at 16, his son Steve at 19, and Steve's son also at 19, and it was the making of them as men. He implies that if they are no trouble living at home, and if they pay they own way while there, there is no need to get them to leave, but if they are troublesome, they need to go. Their bad behaviour causes problems for the marriage, as you can see in your own case.

What I conclude from these various bits of advice is that you two should decide whether you both enthusiastically want your son to live at home for now, and under what conditions. Are you both only enthusiastic if he has a job, pays his way, is not actively rude and helps out a bit? Does he do those things most of the time? Is there anything you can do to ensure that he does those things - such as drawing up a contract? Is it still appropriate to use the discipline methods (more praise than criticism) that you used when he was 14? These are all issues for you to brainstorm.

If your husband wasn't happy with how things were, then you need to respect his view and discuss what to do about it. In both your accounts, it sounds as if you are rather too convinced that you know what is best, and that you insist upon it; and as you know, that won't do, and you can see the results today. Your son is not home, and you are at war with your husband.

I don't necessarily know what is best but I do know what doesn't work. I am no longer interested in UA time. It doesn't work. The more time we spend together the worse it gets. Thank you all for your help.

Everyone seems to take two steps back at first because you are discovering tthe reluctant agreements your spouse made.

The default in this case would be no adults but you living in the house unless you are both in enthusiatic agreement.

How did you get from what I posted, to stating that UA time does not work? Am I missing something?

Hi. I have been reading along and I understand why you don't want UA with your H. Dr Harley would say to stop having it until your H can prove that he is safe enough to go out with.

The issue with your son is just one more thing. It seems like this is still just one of a host of issues going on here. It is also OK for you to be unwilling to negotiate with him while he is still Love busting you. Rule one of negotiation is to make it pleasant and safe.

Are you trying to tell us you are giving up?
I am confused as to exactly what you mean but would agree that UA should stop until he can tell you that he will be safe enough to date.

I would also say it is time for a separation on your side because of the abuse going on. Just to be safe:
Can you write Dr. H again yourself? He loves and encourages couples to update him.

The above is a selfish demand.

Why? That is what I would like. It is information about what would make me happy.

I think it would only be a demand if it rose to the level of "it's this way or else"

"Honey, what you did by taking away son's privileges was independent behavior and hurt me terribly. I would love an apology."

Saying it that way would not be a selfish demand.

How about this:

"I would also appreciate it if you would give son back his privileges of laundry and shower until we can negotiate a plan that we are both in agreement about. If you are willing to do that, I am willing to sit with you on xyz day at xyz time to negotiate a win win solution to your problem of son's lack of responsibility. And I will continue to work with you until an agreement is reached, even if it means discussing it on the radio show or with Dr. Harley."

What do you think about that?

Thats what her previous reply sounded like.

But wasnt IW behaving independently by insisting son stay on her terms?

We are not talking about a child, but an 18yo man. The son was 14 when the unhappy agreement was made.

Read : "give me what I want now or I won't work with you."

IJ has already said he is not in agreement with that plan. He was reluctant 4 years ago. He sounds fed up now.

I refer everyone to Kat37's thread and the advice she was given about her husband's support of a disrespectful son.

"how would you feel about sitting down on xyz day at this time to discuss a plan for dealing with son that we are mutually enthusiastic about?"

I'm not seeing where she insisted or behaved independently.

Then he definitely needs to calm down so he can negotiate a solution that is a win for both of them.

It is clear that indianaswife is willing to learn to avoid demands. It is not clear that indianajordan is, though. We need to get the beam out of his eye here before we chastise iw over a possible mote.

Okay, Kat wasn't told to unilaterally come up with a new way to discipline their son.

Which is what IJ did.

And the kid is 18, not 12 like Kat's son.

This is a different situation, apples. The 18 year doesn't need the discipline that the 12 year old needs. Because IJ didn't like the way they agreed to discipline their son years ago doesn't not give him permission to just up and kick their son out today without talking it over with his wife.

The real problem here is IJ's lack of care for his wife. And he needs to undo the IB he has done by removing the consequences he unilaterally put on on his son and allowing the son to come home if the son wants to. Then IJ and his wife can negotiate how they want their son to live under their roof. Until they agree, the son can come and go as he pleases (they do nothing).

***EDIT***

***EDIT***

A warning to all posters not to argue over advice on the thread.

I, too, understand why iw doesn't want UA time with her husband.

Was I was puzzled about was why that was a response to the post I spent some time making, about the conflict with her son. iw appeared to be responding to me, but the substance of my post wasn't even acknowledged.

Sugarcane: I appreciate your thoughtful response, it is helpful when the "why" behind the advice is given. I understand that my husband has been in reluctant agreement. It may seem like a demand to say "you can not do this" however there are laws protecting kids, especially at 14. We were trying to homeschool and it just doesn't go over well with the authorities to have your 14 year old not provided food or a bed or kicked out of his home. Nothing was working because we had not built a love relationship with this child. H had always been pretty harsh with the kids. He felt himself to be the "heavy, the ogre, the enforcer" and he was, and I was in reluctant agreement. So you see the pattern. I then offered that I would be the enforcer and he would be the "fun and happy" parent. That is what we have been doing to a degree, but it chafed H that he couldn't now "discipline" Son the way he wanted to. So, I think there is an issue of "reasonableness" that has to come into play as I learned from talking with Dr. Harley. So while he has tried to open a discussion about disciplining Son, I have been unwilling and that is wrong on my part. We don't seem to know how to negotiate without LB's. I do have an attitude about knowing what's best for the kids because I can feel it. I have also done lots of reading and research on how to parent well, I am not parenting the way I was parented. The real issue though is what to do after an IB has occurred and the discussion has been lively. If I insist H apologize and renege on his punishment, is that a demand or is it in keeping with the program. It's similar to insisting that your spouse stop making demands, is that a demand? Does it make it any different if you say it sweetly or just blurt it out?

My switch to talking about UA is because H keeps saying that people on the forum are telling him to organize UA time. I keep saying that lack of UA time is not our problem. It is lack of empathy and caring. My H doesn't want to hurt his family. He just doesn't seem to understand how his actions and words are perceived and is not motivated to change them when I tell him how he affects me. So I don't know how that can be resolved.

H has apologized to S and is trying to make it right. I appreciate that a great deal. However, because of all of the other issues I am looking for a place to go as soon as possible.

I don't understand your point. Who was suggesting this?

I posted the solution that Dr H suggests in Love Busters. Have you read the rest of the chapter, about conflicts over the discipline of children?

Yo should make a thoughtful request, and not a demand for him to put right the IB. If he refuses to end his IB, you are back where you started this thread, and we gave you advice about this.

IW, have you considered doing the online program? I have found the access to a coach and Dr Harley extremely valuable. It's not necessarily a magic wand that brings instant resolution, but you do get help and support as you work towards a resolution.

About parenting, you can't negotiate in an environment that is demanding, judgemental and disrespectful. And as markos already pointed out, Do Nothing in that scenario means the kids run wild (go undisciplined). If that means an increase in anger, demands and disrespect it only delays negotiation further. Negotiation takes tWo calm and rational people.

I don't understand your point. Who was suggesting this?

My Husband was.

Well, I still don't understand your point. It is not a demand to say "you cannot do..." anything. It IS a demand to say "you must..." actually do something.

You seem to be suggesting that if one spouse says "I'm doing this", MB suggests that the other spouse simply lets them. This is a very odd, wrong, reading of POJA.

Additionally, if your husband was serious about turning your 14 year old out into the street, it is your job to ensure the health and safety of that child. This means that POJA is suspended.

But I don't really understand why we are talking about what your husband said in anger when your son was 14. What you need to see is that, ever since then, it seems that your husband been participating in a reluctant agreement. That was wrong, and it was wrong of you to enforce your unilateral rule. The result is that you are where you are now.

If your son asks to come home, you need to agree in advance how to jointly deal with difficult behaviours when he presents them.

Sugarcane, I think I see the issue. Until a few months ago we were operating NOT under POJA, rather under "husband is the head of the household". This means he takes his wife's opinion into account but he makes the final decision and if she doesn't like it, too bad. So, no he was not saying this in anger, he was completely serious, and my stand against him was unusual and risky. I am sure that sounds crazy to most MB'ers but that was my life. Now maybe you can understand why we are at war?

SC- I was the one who suggested he (son) be excused from the home was an appropriate response to the situation as it currently stands. Others mentioned Dr. Harley leaving home at 16 and Steve Harley leaving home at 19.

This is the approach we have taken when we have had other adults living with us. We (H and I) make the rules jointly. Guests know the rules. When an infraction occurs, here are the rules, here is the door. They choose. The house rules are not up for debate. This worked well with both our parents and my brother, who have stayed for months at a time.

Hth

I think coaching is a good idea too. You said before you want your H to get counseling; would that suffice?

I would like him to get counselling, yes.

Apples, I totally get family rules, I just don't think "you must do what your parents tell you to do at anytime, or else" is a good one or a reasonable one and that is what I was against. H was against everything else. So, how would you resolve that?

reasonable is a judgement. You need to work on figuring out what works for the two of you. "Do what your parents tell you" was the basis of the rules in my parents' home. I dont see that as unreasonable because my parents never told me to do anything crazy. I was also ready to leave at 18 because I wanted to make my own rules.

The situation has changed drastically from 4 years ago. Your son is an adult. You both have to decide what the house rules are.

But my opinion isnt what is important. What is important is using POJA on this issue.

It doesn't sound crazy to me as that was the culture my husband and I are coming from as well.

Dr Harley and the coaches certainly understand that dynamic as well. The coaching has been so helpful to me even separate from any coaching/counseling my husband has gotten.

I think most of us come from non MB cultures. My XH used to want to hit the children all the time, it was the only form of discipline he knew.

That was not why I divorced him by the way, he was also an adulterer.

It is extremely difficult to use the POJA when one or both persons does not either understand it or is able to negotiate without LB's. My husband has written me a beautiful card apologizing for everything he has done to hurt me and the children, a truly beautiful letter that was extremely touching, along with a dozen red roses. I am quite certain he will think that I have changed my mind about moving out. How do I explain to him why I still need to without discouraging his efforts?

iw, do you see your separation as temporary, or permanent?

That will be up to him. What I mean is it will depend on whether he is willing to do the work it will take to be with me.

Ok who is this man and what have you done with my husband. He is being kind, considerate and actually told me to go relax while he did the dishes when I came home exhausted last night. Best of all in the middle of a conversation he started about counselling he recognized he was not being completely honest about what he was feeling and he was able to turn it around and talk to me gently and lovingly and showing me his vulnerable side. It was the most precious thing I have experienced in such a very long time. This is all new to me. I am overwhelmed.

wow! So he was being ATTRACTIVE? Good sign!

Hopefully he can keep it up.

Hopefully you both can learn to negotiate with each other's best interest in mind, without sacrificing your own interests.

We are having some lovely UA times and even at home my H is trying really hard to be pleasant and thoughtful. I wonder though, this was such an abrupt change, is it sustainable? I mean he is still the same person. I know he can be this way when he wants to be. I just don't want him to switch back to the way he has been in the past. Also I don't want to be a year or two down the road and end up in the same situation as before last week with me making plans to move out. Should I still plan to move out until I know this is a permanent change? How long would that have to be?

Have a plan for separation in place in case he does revert back to his old abusive behavior. It sounds like he is taking this seriously now.

How are things going, Indiana's wife?

Are you and your husband mutually, enthusiastically united in dealing with your children's behavior now?

Did the two of you come up with a solution to address the cursing and disrespect targeted towards you by your DS?

Sunny, was this meant for Kat?

My apologies, yes it was meant for Kat.

Hi everyone. We had a really good couple of months, and then I have been noticing a gradual slide back toward how things used to be. By this I mean that I notice a little more anger, a little more demands, more expressions of dissatisfaction with something I am doing. Our time, for the most part, is very flexible and we set our own schedule. My H was annoyed when I slept until 8am on Saturday morning, and then did some reading for a couple of hours. A couple of days ago I received this letter:

"My dear Wife:

I am very grateful that our businesses are doing well and that we can enjoy the fruits of many years of sacrifice and labour. I feel we have done well.

It does bother me, however, when I am working at the items on the schedule for the week and you are doing things we did not schedule (ie. sleeping, reading).

I feel taken advantage of and unappreciated. I feel this has led to an imbalance in the number of hours of work we each contribute to the maintenance of the businesses.

How do you feel about the number of hours of work we each put into maintaining our businesses each week."

We have apartments that we maintain, and a really huge garden where we grow most of the vegetables for the winter. I felt offended at this letter but am not sure why. Part of me feels like "here we go again", he is unhappy with something I am doing, blaming me for his unhappiness and wants me to change. It is not my appearance now, it is how much I work.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

I think many wives would probably feel disrespected by a letter like that. He sees a problem but I don't think he knows how to express it respectfully. I think the problem he is seeing is that he feels resentful that he is working so hard, and he would like more help. It probably would have been more respectful if he had said "I'm working more/harder than I want to, and was wondering if you would feel like helping me some more."

Dr. Harley says it is good in marriage to make requests of each other, but of course they have to be requests: the spouse has to be able to turn down the request with no consequences, and there has to be no disrespect or angry outburst accompanying the request.

From some of the wording in his letter it sounds to me like he's trying to model what he's saying off of some of the things he's read here, but do you agree with me that the letter is disrespectful to you? If so I think you should probably tell him that you felt disrespected by his words and that you need him to be able to be respectful to you in his requests before you can talk to him about it.

As a non partisan reader (as opposed to someone with understandable emotional baggage), I am seeing an opportunity to negotiate your Saturday obligations. Two heads are always better than one when it comes to problem solving. Presume you both decided to take on all these projects but that does not mean you are chained to them for life.

What about POJAing all of it from the ground up? Maybe this work can be cut back or delegated in a way that makes you both happy?

When I do this he says I am changing the subject.

IW, the hours you each work needs to be re-negotiated. The objective is to find a solution that makes you both happy. The objective is NOT to find an illusory "balance." He can't make up arbitrary rules such as "balance" and apply it to you. That is disrespectful. You will have to each agree on a plan that suits you both without forcing your will on the other.

For example, you might only be happy working 20 hours and he wants to work 40. Since you are both different, the outcome should be different. The solution can be found in the POJA.

Okay.

But you can't proceed until this subject is taken care of.

::shrug::

The guidelines for successful negotiation only work if they are followed in order:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

Guideline 1 is to set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe. You can't get to the other guidelines and the solution until Guideline 1 is in place and being followed.

Indianajordan, talking to you: if you want to get something from your wife here, you'll need to ask for it in a way that has no demands or disrespect. I suggest starting with "How would you feel about helping me more, at 8:00, by doing ... ?"


Gotta sweep out the mines.

It's not exactly the same situation, but Dr. Harley told me:


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2405440#Post2405440

Today my daughter and I had agreed to do the lawn mowing and trimming at one of our rental buildings. My H said that if we left around 10 to 11, the grass would be dry enough. I agreed. As it turned out, we were not ready to leave until 11:25. At this point my H said he was not enthusiastic about us leaving "late" It would run into lunch and we would not be back by 12:30. He did not want to make his own lunch and eat alone. He wanted us to wait until after lunch to leave. I did not want to do that because it gets too hot later in the day and I wanted to be back in time to get our son from the school bus. The upshot was: we argued, I left, did the yard, got back at 1:10, made lunch and we ate.

My H says that my deciding to leave at 11:25 instead of 10:50 is disrespectful and was an independent behavior. Was it?

Also, he says that when I came out of the house and told him I was leaving later than discussed and that he would have to make his own lunch, that I was breaking Guideline #1, that it was not pleasant.

What did you argue about?

You negotiated a time to leave (and presumably come back, and have lunch together, etc) and you did not leave at that time or follow that plan. He expressed that he was not enthusiastic about the new schedule. You should have 'done nothing' until a new schedule or plan was reached that you were both enthusiastic about.

Instead, presumably you argued that your position to not wait was the correct one, and then you left even though he was not enthusiastic.

Yes, I would say that this was disrespectful and an IB.

We did not negotiate a time to leave, he simply told me that this would be the best time to go. There was no explicit agreement.

He is a little upset right now that I did not mention that he wrote me a sweet little note that was waiting for me when I got home. He is upset that I did not even acknowledge receiving it. That it shows he is trying to be pleasant even though he is being treated badly. I feel like I am the one being treated badly, and no note is going to make up for that.

IW, the goal of the forum is to help you learn the skills to resolve your problems on your own. We are not here to resolve every conflict you have.

What principles should have been applied to this situation? What is the basic rule of the policy of joint agreement? How do you define Independent behavior?

I will give you a hint: you broke the policy of joint agreement and committed independent behavior. Are you familiar with those terms?

You have to start using the program if it is to work. These are pretty basic concepts:

The Policy of Joint Agreement: Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse here

here

His demand for a reaction is called a selfish demand: here

So all the good feelings that might have been garnered from his note were erased with his selfish demand.

Would me sleeping in until 8 on a Saturday because I was tired be considered independent behavior because I did not check with him first and come to a mutually enthusiastic agreement?

I broke the policy of joint agreement by not negotiating a new schedule we were both happy with, and my leaving anyways was an independent behavior. It was not possible to negotiate because each of us presented our position and when we could not agree, my H said then you must do nothing. Meaning I would have to stay which was his position. I felt he was being unreasonable, though I did not say that. It seems like a way of controlling.

The default position is to do nothing until a THIRD OPTION IS FOUND. That means you brainstorm until a new decision is reached. You controlled HIM in this instance by forcing your independent behavior on him. His objecting to your thoughtless behavior is not "control." Your forcing that decision on him is "control. "


It was not only POSSIBLE, BUT NECESSARY THAT you negotiate a new decision. Negotiating does not mean you "present your position" and the other person has to agree or its nothing. It means you brainstorm until another option is found. You should put aside your OWN conclusions and brainstorm for other options taht make you both happy.

If you go into a negotiation with your mind already made up, the negotiation is over before it starts. That is how fights start!

Well, if you were sleeping, how could you discuss it? I am sure he would want you to get your sleep, right?

Do nothing does not mean you stay, fix his lunch, eat with him, and then go mow as his plan was.

Staying may at first glance seem like you would be capitulating, but you were under no obligation to proceed further with his plan. If you were not enthusiastic about fixing lunch, eating with him, or mowing in the afternoon, do none of those.
Certainly we can see what you're against but there's a range of options between capitulating to his control and forcing your control by acting independently. Choose to do the things in that between space, acting only for health and safety, until you can negotiate.

Keep your behavior clean and on track so it is obvious if he just won't negotiate and chooses to continue disrespect and demands.

I read it as meaning you two go into negotiations being pleasant with one another. It does not mean that he will never experience the unpleasantness of having to make his own lunch. Disrespect is a DJ, like if you said or thought he's crazy to think you're going to make him lunch after all that. He may be mistaken, but not crazy, if that makes sense?

Do nothing doesn't mean you and DD have to sit home though in the meantime, right? Just means the grass grows longer until you two can discuss it in a pleasant way?

The whole situation sounds miserable and frustrating, as does the being criticized for sleeping past 8 on Saturday. What kind of outside help are you getting, are you doing the coaching? Are you all getting any fun UA and FC time in? I see a lot of withdrawals for both of you today, how do you all refill the ticket?

I think everything will be okay. Stay tune!

Why was it not possible to negotiate a win/win solution? Every negotiation begins with two opposing perspectives afterall. When you say 'when we could not agree' it seems to me that you mean, 'when he would not be reasonable and see things my way' and that is not negotiation at all. 'Do nothing' is the standard POJA approach when an agreement cannot be made, yet you are making it seem as if it was your H's attempt to control your behavior and get his way. Do nothing in this case would mean, don't mow the grass in the morning, don't mow the grass in the afternoon, don't mow the grass at all until until a new agreement could be made enthusiastically by all. How would the do nothing be a win for him in that case?

It is not unreasonable to not agree with your perspective, by the way.

In fact, I saw several alternatives you both could have taken to resolve this -- but I have built that habit of brainstorming ideas to resolve conflict. The two of you are stuck in the mode of "It's my way or his way." In order for negotiation to work, you have to drop that idea and adopt the new habit of looking for a third option. One that will make both of you happy.


It also means neither of you make or eat lunch, so he's not just getting his way. You literally do nothing. The "do nothing" part of POJA is supposed to be uncomfortable -- it's not a place that either of you will want to stay.

I did not have time to post last week when this occurred. I agree with the other posters about brainstorming with abandon for alternatives, and doing nothing until you find a win-win solution. Even though the "DO NOTHING" is a difficult place, remember that nothing is on fire, except for emotions!

Similar things used to happen to us, especially on the weekend. We have found the most success with 2 planning mtgs. One, on Sunday afternoon, and another on Thursday. Naturally, our priorities change throughout the week, and we lose UA hours if we don't.

In our case, what would happen is that one spouse was sleeping while the other is essentially waiting for them to wake up. What can the awake spouse do while waiting for the other to wake? Nothing. lol. See what I mean? If he had gone to mow the lawn while you slept and read a book, then it would have been IB on HIS part.

"Tomorrow" should be discussed before tomorrow comes. Otherwise, expectations get the best of us, especially on weekends. A quick review before bed can make sure that both of you are still in the mood to follow the plan. If not, then a new plan needs to be made. Set an alarm the night before, or be upfront when you decide NOT to set the alarm. Both of you are perfectly entitled to change your minds. Had you done a quick review of the Satuday schedule on Friday, plans could have been renegotiated.

Now, I am giving these ideas, since they worked for us. However, following the program teaches us that we can always solve our problems over time, and the solutions we come up with are the better than anybody else's.

Thank you for these ideas. I think the problem is that when he said he was no longer enthusiastic about the plan and that since we couldn't agree on a new plan, that now the default is to do nothing. He walked away and continued with what he was doing. He does not see that the negotiating has to continue. He said the conversation was unpleasant now because I was "late", (though I maintain this was a misunderstanding), and not agreeing to his new plan. He keeps telling me that I am making conversation unpleasant and so he is not motivated to meet my need for conversation. I am not doing SD's, DJ's or AO's. He says that by asking if he is ready to see the counsellor again (we stopped going during the summer), I am disrespecting him and judging him. That I am displaying an attitude that he "is broken and needs to be fixed". Then he has an AO when I say I am not disrespecting him, I am just asking. When I point out the AO he apologizes but says he only had an AO because I am refusing to recognize my DJ.

Of course that is the problem from YOUR perspective. And it may be accurate, but your husband has different, accurate view of the problem. However, you guys keep arguing perspectives.

You should BOTH apologize for your part in the chaos and move forward following the program. Talking to a counselor about the problems will make it worse. Try to notice the positive efforts your husband made at the time, however imperfect they were.

Put your efforts into UA time and eliminating the lovebusters which bother your spouse. Nothing more needs to be said about that horrible day.

You guys need UA badly.

It actually doesn't HAVE to continue at that moment. You mentioned he had an AO, if he feels like he is about to become angry or he feels the conversation has become unpleasant/unsafe, he has every right to walk away and try to come back to it later.

I do this all the time when we have a conflict. If I feel that we are both starting to get upset or defensive or lb's are going to happen, I walk away until we calm down and can resume negotiations calmly.

That's not "doing nothing." Do nothing applies to him as well. So if he continues what he was doing before or during the conflict, it is simply Independent Behavior on his part.

You are trying to explain to us why the conversation wasn't really unpleasant and he was wrong to think that. Whether you understand why or not, if he says it is unpleasant for him, it is. He is not wrong to have that perspective.

Likewise, he attempted to tell you that your comment made him feel DJ'd. Instead of taking that feedback, you tried to explain why his perspective and feelings were wrong, and you did not really DJ him. If he says he felt disrespected, whether you intended to do so or not, he did.

So when you say you are not doing DJ's, I have a hard time believing that when in this short paragraph you have shown two examples of DJ's.

The first step in overcoming angry outbursts is to acknowledge that nobody can make you angry.

If he addresses an angry outburst by analyzing what you did rather than what he did, then that is disturbing. Nobody should have to be perfect in order to avoid being abused.

Unwritten- are you saying that asking "Are you ready to resume sessions with the counsellor after this summer break?" is actually a DJ?

It doesn't matter whether I think it is disrespectful or not. I am not there. I do not read your tone or gestures or know what context was going on when it was said. I know that these are all things that heavily impact whether I think my H is being disrespectful or not. Disrespect can be construed by more than just the verbal words.

What matters is that your H thought that it was disrespectful. Arguing why he thought it was disrespectful, asking other people if it was disrespectful, or telling him he is wrong for feeling disrespected, will achieve nothing but making him feel more disrespected. So unless that is your end goal, I would refrain from doing that.

I asked it respectfully, I did not tell him he was wrong for feeling disrespected, but I did say I meant no disrespect by it and it was simply an honest question. But I did not apologize for asking the question. Was this wrong? Or should I have said "I'm sorry you feel that way".

My H asked me to do something for him. I declined and said I was not enthusiastic about it. He then got really quiet and stopped speaking. I asked several questions and he answered in a quiet monotone voice. Then we rode the next 2 hours in mostly silence. There was no angry outburst. Can anyone tell me why I feel like running for the hills?

Yes, because he is punishing you for declining his request. It is a form of abuse.

Is there anything in the MB material about the phenomenon of one spouse getting very quiet? I call it "the Silent Treatment" but I don't understand my own reaction to it.

What do you mean exactly? Some spouses use the "silent treatment" to punish the other spouse. Others are silent because they withdraw into a protective shell. I hesitate to use that last description because your husband has told us in the past he was "abused" because of your weight, etc. Which do you think it is?

I went back to page 1 and was trying to see what your plan was, and I can't figure it out. Can you help me get back up to speed?

I just listened to the first radio show again. I'm curious aboyt what is happening with the treatment for his depression. Did the naturopathic method work? Was he taking meds when things got better for awhile? Is he still under a doctor's care and taking the prescriptions?

In our case, I declined his request and he became silent. He says it was because he was afraid to say anything, that he is afraid that whatever he will say will make the conversation "go south". So he says nothing. He is frustrated because he feels whether he speaks or doesn't speak, it is going to cause a downward spiral in the conversation. I feel the silence as punishing, it feels like he is acting as though I don't exist. I have tried different things over the years to get through this, but nothing is successful. Generally, he will eventually start talking, become angry over my perceived offense, have an angry outburst. I generally try to appease, apologize, (even for being overweight) and he would say my apology is not sincere unless I demonstrate it. ie. have sex. I usually would! What a disaster. I have made so many mistakes. But I am trying to change all that. As far as a plan...I am back at square one. We were trying to have lots of UA time, but there are too many Love Busters. He was doing better while on meds but he stopped taking them at some point. I don't know when. He did not tell me he had stopped. He has not been to the doctor since that first time.

How quickly do you try to have normal conversation with him after he becomes quiet/upset?

How long does his silence/not engaging with you typically last?

Why don't you and your husband either sign up for the MB program or write Dr Harley again? I think you have to admit that do-it-yourself is not working. Your husband needs the hands on guidance and supervision of Dr Harley that you would get in the online program. They would assign you a coach who works with you every week on the lessons. She is supervised by Dr Harley. you would have daily access to Dr H on the private forum. It costs $1000 but it is worth every penny. My H and I went through it in 2007.

Yes, good idea, and definitely worth it.

Last week the Silent Treatment was about 4 days, on Monday only 2 hours. But then it went on to a horrible episode at night. The longest has been about 1 1/2 weeks. This happens about 3 to 5 times per year. In my younger days I would try to get him to talk as soon as I noticed something was off. Now I don't try to get him to talk at all.

Definitely this is not working.

It sounds like you have rewarded him in the past for his silent treatment. I agree you shouldn't do that anymore.

Here is the coaching program we are suggesting - it is worth every penny. here

Is saying "I think you should go back on your meds" a DJ?

Why not "how would you feel about taking such and such again?"

Phrased the way you put it, yes it would likely feel like a DJ to the recipient.

Generally speaking, telling a spouse what they "should" is usually a DJ.

Why do you call them "meds"? Are they supplements or are they prescriptions?

The person who ultimately decides whether it is a DJ though, is the recipient.

Indianajordan felt it was, so it was.

Update: We have been separated for 2 months now. I have asked for 3 months of no contact except for business or child issues, and a 1 year separation. I will give him every opportunity to get help and healing. He clearly was not able to: "Do this, and stop doing that". It is such a relief to be out, It has been years and years of emotional, spiritual, mental and physical abuse. I literally tried everything to fix the issues but could never get to a resolution and he would not take any responsibility for the issues. He has a porn and sex addiction. Friends from our church and our children tell me he is saying that I have issues from my childhood and when I get them sorted out we will be back together. They do see that this is not the case but I have never told people, including children, what has actually happened in our home. I don't know if I should. I have some support in my community and some good online support. For the first time in years I feel hope and happiness despite the losses.

If you haven't told the children anything then why do they think you moved out?

His "silent treatment", anger, criticism of my appearance, and escalating physical abuse. These are things that they have been aware of, some of the children saw these things when they were at home.

Wow, Indianaswife, I am so sorry that it had to come to this but I am glad you are taking this needed step and finding relief. I think you should tell your children exactly why you had to separate from your husband and what all he has done, and I feel pretty certain Dr. Harley would agree. They need to know that this is not the way a husband should treat a wife.

Thanks Markos. This has been the hardest thing I have ever done. I am looking for work and a more permanent place to live but I keep wondering " what now". I told DH through accountability people to stop with the flowers and gifts, it is irritating. What would my next step be?

I agree with markos. I think you need to tell the children the reasons you have separated.

Was he the one that moved out?

For now we have agreed to an arrangement where we take turns being away from the home for half of the week. We have a room in a rental building that is comfortable to stay in for several days at a time. This way our 16 year old Downs child doesn't have to be disrupted. However I am looking for something more permanent. Would you advise me exactly what to tell the kids that doesn't sound critical, angry or finger pointing. DH is telling everyone (including kids, pastor, friends) that I have issues from my childhood and when I get them sorted out I will be back. He has been told by several people to stop doing that.

Also, should I put the information to my children on a group forum that they can all see, that my DH can also see? Or should he not be aware of what I post to the children?

Telling your children is a unilateral act that you need to do without his involvement or consent.

I would tell them in person, or over the phone if they don't live with you and you can't get together with them.

Not sure what kind of group forum that might be, but as part of your separation, I would pull out of any such place where he might contact you. Read what Dr. Harley has to say about Plan B.

I would quit relying on any arrangements that are made with him, for a whole host of reasons. You will not be able to depend on his continued cooperation.


There should be finger pointing. You should tell them that your husband has hurt you terribly, you should list the things that he has done that have hurt you such as his porn use and his abuse. You should tell them any woman would be hurt if their husband did these things and that husbands are not supposed to treat their wives this way and that marriage is not supposed to be like this.

And you should tell them that he has hurt you so badly that you cannot stand to be with him any more unless he makes an immediate 100% change and discontinues the behavior and starts having a good marriage with you.


Don't try to control what he is saying or what people think about what he is saying. Detach from him and quit receiving news about what he is saying and what people are telling him.

You need to get positioned so that he can't get you flowers and gifts. If he is forwarding them through the accountability people, you need better accountability people who won't pass those on, because they are going to be hurtful to you. Gifts without repentance are insanely hurtful.

You need to be listening to Dr. Harley's radio show to learn as much as you possibly can about how to successfully manage a separation.

I'm concerned that there are lots of holes here through which your husband can reach you. That is not a recipe for a successful separation; that is a recipe for a trip to a mental hospital.

Here How to Plan B Correctly

It was interesting to hear a reference made to the 'silent treatment' on MBRadio yesterday. The silent treatment is very different from a man who says "I am getting angry and need to cool off". The silent treatment I have received over the years was emotional abuse. Early on he generally denied that he was angry. The abuse cycle would happen over and over again. I would notice him getting quieter and at times I would ask "are you upset about something?" He would reply, "no". If I continued to speak to that, he would get angry that I was insinuating that he was angry. The pattern was always the same. He would do the silent treatment. Eventually after days he would point to something I did that upset him. Like my weight. I would apologize and take responsibility for my actions and let him know that I was working on it. He would say my apology was not sincere unless I had sex with him, even though I was not feeling it. This is sexual abuse.

If you are in a relationship where you are always made to be at fault, where your spouse takes no responsibility for the issues, issues never get resolved, you feel confused and a little bit crazy at the end of a conversation, then you are being manipulated. You are in an abusive relationship and need to get out, for your own safety and sanity.

Have you told your children? Are you going to do Plan B? Parallel parenting?

I have started telling the children. I am not really doing Plan B because there has not been an affair. I can't lock him out of the home because I can't live here by myself and am still looking for a permanent place to stay. It is too much for me. (Think woodstoves, solar panels, generator). I have asked for no contact for 3 months, and separation for 1 year. For the most part H has been cooperative. I think you can see that while he would like to use the MB program, he just isn't able to at this point. He doesn't get it. At all. As Patrick Doyle would say "his denial system is profound". We will see how things go. Yes we are parallel parenting at this point.

Angela writes about the silent treatment. On the Marriage Builders Forum the issue of rewarding her husband for using the silent treatment was discussed. Her husband continues to use the silent treatment as a punishment but less often.

Radio Clip on Silent Treatment

Angela refers to a response on my thread. The reward that is referred to is this: my husband would become quiet and withdrawn, answering my questions in a short and monotone voice. He would not look at me, not touch me, hug his side of the bed at night, try to avoid doing anything for me, and be gone out of the house as much as possible. This would go on for days. In the early days I reacted in all sorts of ways, tried everything to get him to stop. In more recent years, as I am able to step back and realize this is his problem, not mine, I have behaved differently. At one point I realized that if he was able to rant about my weight, and I did an apology and had sex, the silent treatment would end there. So I did that for a while until it made me a little crazy, and I realized I was actually rewarding his bad behaviour. A narcissist is actually rewarded by watching his spouse's discomfort as he does the silent treatment. My h was getting a double reward as I sickly grovelled for his attention and "love". He demanded sex by way of an apology. This is sexual abuse.

Brainhurts, I emailed Dr. Harley and he answered my questions on mbradio. Would you post that segment here? I wrote down the exact date but now I can't find where I wrote it down. It was a couple of weeks ago at least, and I use the name of May. Thanks.

Can you check the email and get the date?

Yes, I sent the email on June 2.

Is this it?
Radio Clip of Indianaswife's question

Yes that's it. Thank you.

You're welcome.

Are you going to cancel the separation and move back with your H?

No I am not cancelling the separation. I am watching to see if there is a change in behavior. His vocabulary is different, and he says he has become aware of how he has done things completely wrong for our entire marriage. The idea of trying to make me happy is quite new and not something he has ever considered or seen happen in marriages around him. He is committed to this now. However, a couple of things have happened that disturb me. We agreed at the start of the separation that we would not talk to people of the opposite sex about our problems. He has done this twice, and once the woman hugged him, they both say she basically forced the hug. I talked to her about this and she said she hugs everyone, and has hugged him before, and that he didn't really have a choice. I have to say that I was furious about this but am not really sure why. I can think of a few reasons why I feel angry about it but none seem enough to cause this level of anger in me. I don't see why he couldn't just move back away from her and explain why. I am working on my own resentments and trying to be the healthiest I can be, looking at how emotional abuse has affected my sense of self and becoming strong emotionally. We are interacting more and I am trying to think about things he could offer me that would possibly make me happier than I am now and see if he could do those things. It is all so awkward and a weird limbo place, but I think it is important to be 'comfortable with the uncomfortable'. I can't think of much worse than moving back together just to slide back into the same patterns and having to go through all of this again. Life is too short!

Is it ok for me to say to my husband "I feel you are having an angry outburst". Would this be acceptable to say or is it a disrespectful judgement?

I emailed this question to Dr. Harley and he responded on the radio program on Sept. 12. Hoping to see the segment posted here. Thanks.

Is this your question? I didn't see it on Sept 12th, but this is from Sept 11th.
Indianaswife's question

i would like to update you on what has happened with us and ask a few questions. I ended the separation in August 2017 after 9 months. For the next 8 months we talked a lot and I was happy with what I heard for the most part. There were still things I thought my H did not understand about what I needed but he did not criticize, get angry or silent or demanding. We began to make love again, and after a couple of months I was able to commit to 2-3 dates per week, and our son was in school from 8-2:30 and we used that time to go out for coffee or play games and then make love at night. In March 2018 we went to Florida for a month with our son. In the 4 days before we left we became very busy and did not have dates or sex. After the first day of driving, we decided we would make love that night at the motel where we would spend the night. I fell asleep without following through. The next morning I also was not enthusiastic. The second day of driving was done with my H being silent and withdrawn. When he became willing to talk he said he was upset because I did not follow through on my promise and he was not emotionally motivated to talk to me. He began to drive aggressively. I asked him to stop. He moved into the slow lane of the interstate and began to shave with his electric razor. I did not like that but didn't say anything. We did make love that night but I was upset that the silent treatment showed up again. I started talking to him about it, but in those conversations he got upset and kept saying that I was doing disrespectful judgements, for which I apologized. Basically every time I say "When you..." he says I am pointing the finger at him and that is disrespectful. What do I do when I disagree about what a disrespectful judgement is. I don't feel disrespect and I am not being judgemental, I just want to solve the problem.

My husband and I email our complaints in order to avoid making DJs. It's generally best to just state "it bothers me when" and then list the objective behavior without adding anything else. If he doesn't respond the way you'd like, it's best to just drop it even if it means that the problem remains unresolved for the time being. You might also try asking him what language he'd like you to use for complaints.

However, Dr. Harley has a special rule for driving: "Policy of Driver Etiquette: The spouse driving the car should drive in a way that makes the spouse who is a passenger feel safe and comfortable." (I read about this in the private message board; not sure if he's mentioned it in writing elsewhere.) So maybe just tell him you're not comfortable with him shaving while driving, or that you'd feel more comfortable with him driving at a certain speed or distance from other cars. Try to keep your statement as specific as possible, and avoid subjective phrases like "driving aggressively".

He should not punish you for not having sex with him, even if you'd agreed to. You shouldn't have sex unless you're enthusiastic about it, and you and your husband should negotiate about what would make you more enthusiastic.

Update: Separated November 2016, Reconciliation attempt July 2017 until September 2019. Final separation Sept. 3, 2019. Filed for divorce after 1 year of separation. Massive post separation abuse starting August 2020 to present. Legal abuse: using the court system to abuse. He has fired 3 lawyers, 2 times he has not filed material on time, refuses to agree to reasonable Parenting Schedule. Arrested May 1, 2021. Out on bail May 2, 2021 Will this nightmare ever end???

We had a member here, who also had a husband like that - does anyone remember what her screen-name was? It is very important, that you document everything he does which is not in accordance with the courts. Just make a note and keep the electronic evidence (emails, texts - you can make a screenshot or a photo) or witnesses.
Has your husband ever been physically aggressive? Does he own a weapon? Does he drink alcohol, or do drugs? His behaviour sounds rather erratic.
If the answer to any of the above is yes, you have to be very careful, because people can do irrational things they later regret out of spite. I hope your are in a place where you can be safe or can take safety measures. Divorce proceedings, especially when so emotionally charged can lead to vast overreaction where your ex forgets that his priority should be on the children and that they need a mother who is not stressed out. Especially if he wants his children to do good in school and in life, because they are his legacy.

God bless,

Happyheart

Also, the best thing against this stalking is not to react. It will get boring after a while if he doesn't have a reaction. Do not let him see you in court. Be excused. If you are having physical problems, like migraine or other psychosomatic complaints before appearing in court, you can be excused in most countries with a medical doctor's proof. It would be best to not let the children see you in distress if you are in any, as they will speak to him. You will find, that you will feel much safer, if you have good legal representation, so that they can handle the courts. There are women's groups that may be able to help you, or you could speak with the church. If he is still in the same church, you may want to contemplate changing your church. Plan B and no contact will save your sanity.

Eventually, he will see that this does not work and if there is any semblance of what he learned in church in him, he will stop bothering you. If he has personality disorders, this may take long, but it is better to have no contact anyway.