I, too, understand why iw doesn't want UA time with her husband.

Was I was puzzled about was why that was a response to the post I spent some time making, about the conflict with her son. iw appeared to be responding to me, but the substance of my post wasn't even acknowledged.

Sugarcane: I appreciate your thoughtful response, it is helpful when the "why" behind the advice is given. I understand that my husband has been in reluctant agreement. It may seem like a demand to say "you can not do this" however there are laws protecting kids, especially at 14. We were trying to homeschool and it just doesn't go over well with the authorities to have your 14 year old not provided food or a bed or kicked out of his home. Nothing was working because we had not built a love relationship with this child. H had always been pretty harsh with the kids. He felt himself to be the "heavy, the ogre, the enforcer" and he was, and I was in reluctant agreement. So you see the pattern. I then offered that I would be the enforcer and he would be the "fun and happy" parent. That is what we have been doing to a degree, but it chafed H that he couldn't now "discipline" Son the way he wanted to. So, I think there is an issue of "reasonableness" that has to come into play as I learned from talking with Dr. Harley. So while he has tried to open a discussion about disciplining Son, I have been unwilling and that is wrong on my part. We don't seem to know how to negotiate without LB's. I do have an attitude about knowing what's best for the kids because I can feel it. I have also done lots of reading and research on how to parent well, I am not parenting the way I was parented. The real issue though is what to do after an IB has occurred and the discussion has been lively. If I insist H apologize and renege on his punishment, is that a demand or is it in keeping with the program. It's similar to insisting that your spouse stop making demands, is that a demand? Does it make it any different if you say it sweetly or just blurt it out?

My switch to talking about UA is because H keeps saying that people on the forum are telling him to organize UA time. I keep saying that lack of UA time is not our problem. It is lack of empathy and caring. My H doesn't want to hurt his family. He just doesn't seem to understand how his actions and words are perceived and is not motivated to change them when I tell him how he affects me. So I don't know how that can be resolved.

H has apologized to S and is trying to make it right. I appreciate that a great deal. However, because of all of the other issues I am looking for a place to go as soon as possible.

I don't understand your point. Who was suggesting this?

I posted the solution that Dr H suggests in Love Busters. Have you read the rest of the chapter, about conflicts over the discipline of children?

Yo should make a thoughtful request, and not a demand for him to put right the IB. If he refuses to end his IB, you are back where you started this thread, and we gave you advice about this.

IW, have you considered doing the online program? I have found the access to a coach and Dr Harley extremely valuable. It's not necessarily a magic wand that brings instant resolution, but you do get help and support as you work towards a resolution.

About parenting, you can't negotiate in an environment that is demanding, judgemental and disrespectful. And as markos already pointed out, Do Nothing in that scenario means the kids run wild (go undisciplined). If that means an increase in anger, demands and disrespect it only delays negotiation further. Negotiation takes tWo calm and rational people.

I don't understand your point. Who was suggesting this?

My Husband was.

Well, I still don't understand your point. It is not a demand to say "you cannot do..." anything. It IS a demand to say "you must..." actually do something.

You seem to be suggesting that if one spouse says "I'm doing this", MB suggests that the other spouse simply lets them. This is a very odd, wrong, reading of POJA.

Additionally, if your husband was serious about turning your 14 year old out into the street, it is your job to ensure the health and safety of that child. This means that POJA is suspended.

But I don't really understand why we are talking about what your husband said in anger when your son was 14. What you need to see is that, ever since then, it seems that your husband been participating in a reluctant agreement. That was wrong, and it was wrong of you to enforce your unilateral rule. The result is that you are where you are now.

If your son asks to come home, you need to agree in advance how to jointly deal with difficult behaviours when he presents them.

Sugarcane, I think I see the issue. Until a few months ago we were operating NOT under POJA, rather under "husband is the head of the household". This means he takes his wife's opinion into account but he makes the final decision and if she doesn't like it, too bad. So, no he was not saying this in anger, he was completely serious, and my stand against him was unusual and risky. I am sure that sounds crazy to most MB'ers but that was my life. Now maybe you can understand why we are at war?

SC- I was the one who suggested he (son) be excused from the home was an appropriate response to the situation as it currently stands. Others mentioned Dr. Harley leaving home at 16 and Steve Harley leaving home at 19.

This is the approach we have taken when we have had other adults living with us. We (H and I) make the rules jointly. Guests know the rules. When an infraction occurs, here are the rules, here is the door. They choose. The house rules are not up for debate. This worked well with both our parents and my brother, who have stayed for months at a time.

Hth

I think coaching is a good idea too. You said before you want your H to get counseling; would that suffice?

I would like him to get counselling, yes.

Apples, I totally get family rules, I just don't think "you must do what your parents tell you to do at anytime, or else" is a good one or a reasonable one and that is what I was against. H was against everything else. So, how would you resolve that?

reasonable is a judgement. You need to work on figuring out what works for the two of you. "Do what your parents tell you" was the basis of the rules in my parents' home. I dont see that as unreasonable because my parents never told me to do anything crazy. I was also ready to leave at 18 because I wanted to make my own rules.

The situation has changed drastically from 4 years ago. Your son is an adult. You both have to decide what the house rules are.

But my opinion isnt what is important. What is important is using POJA on this issue.

It doesn't sound crazy to me as that was the culture my husband and I are coming from as well.

Dr Harley and the coaches certainly understand that dynamic as well. The coaching has been so helpful to me even separate from any coaching/counseling my husband has gotten.

I think most of us come from non MB cultures. My XH used to want to hit the children all the time, it was the only form of discipline he knew.

That was not why I divorced him by the way, he was also an adulterer.

It is extremely difficult to use the POJA when one or both persons does not either understand it or is able to negotiate without LB's. My husband has written me a beautiful card apologizing for everything he has done to hurt me and the children, a truly beautiful letter that was extremely touching, along with a dozen red roses. I am quite certain he will think that I have changed my mind about moving out. How do I explain to him why I still need to without discouraging his efforts?

iw, do you see your separation as temporary, or permanent?

That will be up to him. What I mean is it will depend on whether he is willing to do the work it will take to be with me.

Ok who is this man and what have you done with my husband. He is being kind, considerate and actually told me to go relax while he did the dishes when I came home exhausted last night. Best of all in the middle of a conversation he started about counselling he recognized he was not being completely honest about what he was feeling and he was able to turn it around and talk to me gently and lovingly and showing me his vulnerable side. It was the most precious thing I have experienced in such a very long time. This is all new to me. I am overwhelmed.