This isn't very nice Forged. Although I understand wanting a WS to feel guilt, if she is depressed and suicidal she needs help for that. Ultimately your goal is to create a great affair proofed marriage away from dirtbag. It will be MORE difficult to do that if she is depressed and mentally incapable of creating a marriage like this. She will be more susceptible to the high of the affair too.

I did not mean for it to sound that way. I have read elsewhere that WW who go on antidepressants reconnect with OM because the sense of guilt is deadened. I do not wish pain upon WW or anyone.

She never outright said "I want to die" or "I want to commit suicide", but she said she would like to just disappear, and other things that vaguely sounded like they had suicidal indications.

I received a voicemail from Joyce Harley, asking me to be a radio caller, and offering to hear WW side as well. WW said she would be willing to email her side of the sitch prior to my call. I am hopeful that she will give proper credence to the advice we receive. We discussed how much we liked the radio clips we have listened to, as well as the video HNHN series.

You had better outright ask your wife if she is contemplating killing herself if you have any suspicion in that direction. Contrary to popular opinion, this does NOT increase the chance of suicide or put this idea in her head in the first place.

Show your care for her and tell her that she can talk to you about anything and that you will get through it together.

Haven't seen that - typically antidepressants help a person behave more rationally and logically, and less overwhelmed by emotions. It gives them the ability to see the way out of the mess they are in.

I actually suggested the anti depressants to her, and she said she did not want to go on them. Her first reason was that she didn't want any "labels" attached to her, and the second was that she wanted to feel the pain that she brought on herself. I will discuss it with her tonight.

I am doing everything I can to show her I still care. I am having a hard time showing her affection right now, but I am working through it. I gave her a back massage last night because she was having issues with her shoulder and neck, and she basically melted into me and broke down in tears, apologizing.

Did you see this?

Let me say that you need to take the suicide threat seriously regardless.

But on the other hand, please keep in mind that this kind of thing isn't THAT unusual for a WS who has been caught. My exWH sobbed while clutching me and told me he wanted to die after 2011 dday. He also refused to take the poly after agreeing to it (he didn't think I would follow through).

These are not tears of "guilt". These are tears because she got caught and she uses them to manipulate you. Ok? She is an active wayward.

I'm happy that you wrote to Dr Harley and am looking forward to hearing his response. I am certain that he will give you great advice in terms of EPs, meeting ENs and avoiding LBers and how to recover, starting with moving away.

Let me say this to you, though: Your WW's refusal to take the poly is a REAL problem. That is an indication that she will cling to her SSL. I would expect wayward behavior from her into the future (SSL, IB, lack of EPs, lack of POJA). The fact that she has IC and enabling support system isn't going to help matters. That is what I faced with my exWH after we decided to recover in 2007 and it was an uphill battle for 4 years until there was another dday.

I told you earlier I the thread (back in October?) that you need to be prepared for backsliding and how you are going to handle it and I don't think you took me seriously, because of the remorse that your WW was displaying.

I have been saying that repeatedly. Enough that she said I am fixated on it. I said, "I am fixated on saving our marriage, but I need a kernel of truth on which to start rebuilding trust"

She doesn't seem to be shifting her decision yet.

We are taking the kids to my parents for the day so we can talk. I will let her read my letter to Dr. Harley so she can get started writing her side of the sitch.

I also asked her to write down a list of her objections to the polygraph. I am curious what she comes up with.

I would not do this. It gives the impression that you are willing to negotiate this and that you will drop it if her reasons are good enough.

You need to stay strong about the poly and just keep reiterating that you need her to take it to make you feel safe.

I don't know why you would ask her to write you a list of fogbabble. It doesn't really matter what reasons she GIVES for not wanting to take it, because we all know the real reason she doesn't want to take it, because she is still lying to you.

I let her know I wanted it specifically for her email that Joyce asked her to send prior to my call-in, to let Dr. Harley know what she is facing. I am curious what she comes up with, but that is not why I asked. I wanted to be sure she is really thinking about the test.

I let her know that I will not drop it.

I asked her to call her doctor for AD meds. She said she didn't want drugs. I asked her about her suicidal statements. She said she would never do that to our children. I gave her examples of how her depression is affecting the kids. She considered for a while and said she would call. I will force the issue to get the call done Monday.

I feel like my persistence is becoming an LB for her. I can't engage in small talk because it feels fake.

She keeps saying "you will learn to trust me in time" I told her that I don't think we have time, that I feel like our marriage is in a death spiral.

She is still minimizing the significant harm her backsliding has caused. It is like a broken record around here, over and over:
Me:"Please make the right decision and take the test. Start to make me feel safer, give me something to start building on"
Her:"Why do you need the test? I'm doing a lot to regain your trust over time "
Me:"Like breaking our EPs?"
And on an on.
I told her that I am gravely concerned about what OM might do. She defended him and said " He would never do anything to harm us" SAY WHAT?

ask her why is she defending him

I did. She claimed she was not defending him, even though she had the same look on her face as when I first presented her with the evidence of OM'so crimes. I told her that I think she is still in love with him.

We sat and talked for a while tonight. WW drafted an email to Dr. Harley. I didn't read it yet.

She did promise to call her doc Monday for AD meds.

She's in the fog, Forged. You should basically look at this as an active affair until you can get away from the OM.

Yes, I agree she is still foggy. We talked more tonight. I explained that the results of a polygraph would not be the deciding factor of our fate. I said that it would provide a starting point for our work. I gave the example of how I approach any project. "I have been shocked, so I now test circuits with a meter. I work with different types of batteries, and wouldn't charge one before testing it. I have been burned by you, so I don't feel safe opening my heart to you without proof that I have all of the facts."

This seemed to have an affect on her. Also, asking her to write reasons for refusal to Dr Harley has been hard for her, she said she hasn't really come up with any. She said she would take the test if it would make me want to save our M. Let's see if I can actually get it done.