My WW and I have been married for 21 years. We have developed a rut, and have let our love banks become overdrawn. We have not met each others emotional needs for years. I am low T and low libido, and through stubbornness and fear had not sought treatment.

Ten years ago, WW had an affair. With the help of members here, and direct conversation with Steven Harley, I was able to help her end the A, and we entered a period of happiness and fulfillment. After the twins were born, we began to drift. I am a devoted and loving father, and WW is (was) a wonderful mother. We allowed our love for each other to take a second seat to the kids.

I did not follow all of the directions I was given 10 years ago. I failed to continue to meet her needs, and our relationship suffered. She began withdrawing from me, and I was blind to it.

After being a SAHM for 6 years, WW recently got a job with the grandfather of one of DD's friends (OM). Unfortunately this new experience and the attention from OM caused her to completely withdraw from me. I had no clear understanding of the degree of her unhappiness until we had a recent discussion, but by then it was too late.

I will try to be brief, but I have a couple of immediate concerns. OM was convicted of 3 counts of sex abuse over 20 years ago, as well as unlawful dealing with a minor. He was convicted later of assault and solicitation to commit assault when he and two thugs beat up his XW boyfriend. WW dismissed my discovery of this information, saying that it must not be true. She subsequently allowed our DS to ride in a combine with OM unsupervised. Also, last night DD(6) said OM and WW act like a couple.

Even though I don't have proof, I called WW's enabler sister tonight to inform her of my concerns. She knows about the A (but didn't offer any info), but she knew nothing about the crimes. I have not seen WW since this conversaton. I am not sure what will happen next. I am very concerned about the depth of the fog.

Did you have a question for us? Did you want help saving your marriage?

What was your former posting name?

I desperately want help. I am trying to remember my last username. I am working to better myself, and seeking medical help re Low T. WW agreed to see a counselor, but our appointment is not until 11/1. I will post old username when I find it.

My question is, what do I do about WW letting DD and DS be near this criminal OM while fixing my faults and trying to stop the A?

Do you have direct evidence of the affair?

i think its noble that you would try to fix your faults, but you have more pressing issues here, namely killing this affair and protecting your children from a bad dude.

The reason your wife has had a 2nd affair is because she has poor boundaries around men. You could have met her needs 1000% and she would have still had an affair as long as her lovebank was open to others.

This will likely spell the end of your marriage because "counselors" are destructive to marriages. It will make it 10x harder for us to help you save this if you are seeing an unqualified marriage counselor who validates your wife's foggy thinking. Marriage counselors are not experienced with infidelity and cause great damage.

The advice we give here comes from Dr Bill Harley, who specializes in infidelity.

Thanks for your quick response MelodyLane. I do not yet have proof of A other than my perception and WW's shiftiness. I am still looking for the trove of info in my old posts. Gimble was a big help back then.

That is where I would start. What would be the quickest way to get evidence? Do they speak on the phone? Does he come to your home?

Can you afford a PI?

Unfortunately I don't have any budget for PI now, but I did some amateur sleuthing in the past.

I figured out my original username, FORGED. Should I delete this thread and start again there?

I will notify the mods and ask them to merge your old thread so folks can see the backstory!

For now, you need to quickly put together a plan to spy on her and get the evidence.

I would also strongly consider seeing an attorney tomorrow about protecting your kids. Their protection comes first.

I have also requested a meeting with our Pastor, and she has agreed to talk there. Do you also recommend against that?

WW works for OM. Place of business is near our house. I did look at her phone while she was asleep. Not much there. He texted a pic of him and a friend at a football game. WW also said in a txt to enabler SIL that I probably asked her to meet with pastor because "she couldn't lie to him"

I would FIRST get the evidence of the affair and then ask your pastor to reach out to her and ask her to end her affair. He can be a great exposure target. But don't do that until you have gathered evidence and exposed the affair.

Are you familiar with the effectiveness of exposure?

I found your last thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1323353&page=1

That is great that you have access to her phone. You can download spyware on it. One good one is: https://webwatcher.com/

another that some have used is teensafe. Check out this thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2832187#Post2832187

You should stop trying to get your wife to confess and get the evidence. Don't ask her anymore if she is having an affair. Don't try to get your pastor to do this either. It is your job to get the evidence. Once you do that, we can help you with next steps.

I will work on the ware, and will gather other evidence. I will speak with our pastor solo at first, and will enlist his help at exposure time.

Forged, you were here a long while ago, and much has changed on the forum since your first post.

I don't usually post in betrayed husband's threads, but wanted to recommend that you read a recent husband's thread.

I just have a hunch that you've got what it takes to have a similar result: wifedivorcing's story

I will read that thread and reread my old thread. I expect SHTF this evening. SIL said she would talk to WW today about OM''s crimes. Unfortunately I opened that can before I checked here.

WW is not tech savvy, so I should be able to get software loaded soon. She wears her phone like a scarlet letter, so it's all about the timing.

Forged, I would not take the time to read your old thread. The reason is because, unfortunately, the forum wasn't following the MB program back then; it was more of a platform to share personal opinions. We follow it to the letter now because we realize it gives you the best chance possible at recovery. I have been here every day for 15 years and I adamantly believe in the effectiveness of the MB program.


Great!!

One thread that would be very helpful is this one - he did save his marriage: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2801487&page=1

What is SHTF?

Stuff hits the fan.

SIL said she would wait a bit to say anything to WW.
We are planning on making book inspired pumpkins tonight for school contest, but WW had to go to the office to meet with someone from a different company. She tried to take kids, saying no other coworkers would be there. I forbade her from taking kids, and had to leave work early to make that happen.

And that is the right thing to do. You need to take whatever steps necessary to keep your kids away from the OM.

In the meantime, you have to QUICKLY get evidence of the affair so we can help you kill the affair and run the OM off.

I want to add that it is not your SIL's responsibility to protect your children from the OM, IT IS YOURS. You did the right thing tonight by not allowing her to take them around him. You have to ENSURE that never happens evne if you have to get a court order. We have had predators go after women with children in order to get to their kids. You can't let that happen.

I agree it is not SIL responsibility. I was simply trying to temper the poor advice she is already giving WW.

I purchased Webwatcher and stayed up late helping WW with phone maintenance and photo storage. She watched her phone like a hawk. I had a couple minutes of opportunity to load it but it would not let me login. I could login on my phone, even in incognito mode. I will try again asap

I was thinking of taking off work and surprising WW at her office with a snack or something, just to get a feel for the "dynamic" there, and possibly see OM... I have not met him, nor been to the office yet since WW has only been working for a few weeks. Is this a good idea or a bad idea?

Thats a good idea.

Of course that did not go as planned. I went to her office, and not a soul was there. She said she had a full day in office of paperwork. No papers, no people. Her vehicle was there, as usual, as well as OM vehicle. There are plenty of other vehicles they could have used. I called her to let her know I was there, no answer. I used her PC to locate her phone, and location was turned of (rare). I know OM lives down the road from office, but she refused to tell me where. Sad and frustrated, but driven to get facts FAST.

Can you find his house and stake it out? Shouldnt be hard to do.

Well, we live in the country, so the driveways are LONG. I will ask her again and see how she answers. She sent me text saying that she had to go to the mucklands to help shuttle trucks, since they are harvesting ethanol corn. She said they are shorthanded, and was implying that I should go get kids from school. I let her know again that the "reason" I left work was due to stomach ailment and that I didn't feel up to getting them (legit). She tried again, and then acknowledged that she would get them. She knows that DD needs to finish her pumpkin for contest today, and it was their project. She is willing to disappoint our kids for whatever it is she is doing.

I will snoop some more for OM house. I have driven the road several times looking for an unmarked white truck, and boy, there are a lot of those! I will try to scout plate number when I can.

I was thinking of Intellius, but since OM just moved to this house 9/26, not sure it will be a listed address.

His crimes were committed before the registry... otherwise it would be easier to find him.

So would she have left her car and driven something else to go to wherever she said she is at?

NO! Don't ever ask again. All that does is put her on alert. STOP with the cat and mouse game and get the evidence. All you need to do is drive to his house and knock on the door when you suspect she is there.

Truly, you need to be much more strategic about this.

WW parks her car and uses a company vehicle when she has to drive for work.

ML, I am in full agreement that my strategy is underdeveloped. I am still in a bit of shock, but I am scrambling to get my plan in order. Proof is needed, and I am taking steps to get it.

I need to figure out how to get 5 solid minutes with her phone to get the ware installed. WW sleeps at the far edge of our bed with her back to me, facing her closet where the phone is kept at night. If DS or DD call her at night, she goes into there room, bringing phone with her.

WW asked why I was trying to make OM look bad by talking to SIL. I said "because he is bad,and I want to protect you and our children." She told me that she talked to him about it and said he was charged because "he was 19 and she was 17" The court docs clearly show he was 26 at time of crime. Apparently the fog has disrupted her counting ability. I started to discuss, then paused, reiterated my demand that she not talk about OM to kids or let them near him, and said "It doesn't matter if you say you're having an affair or not. I love you now and will always love you. I am certain that the affair will end and we will save our M. I am certain we will get past this." She teared up and tried to hug me. I told her good night and went to bed.

Did you hug her back?

Yes, but she gave more of an arm hug. I am going to county clerk to get facts on crimes in writing.

Forged, the goal here is not to be an enabler, but to be an affair buster. This sounds like you are inappropriately forgiving her. What you should be doing is NOT talking about the affair and getting the evidence.

It matters VERY MUCH that she is having an affair because that is likely to destroy your marriage. I wouldn't talk about it and I certainly would stop being so cavalier about it. It sounds like you don't care very much. I don't know many husbands who would say an affair doesn't matter. And no, you won't always love her if she continues to have affairs.

Please get the evidence!!

When you get the court records, have them certified. (Meaning that the court stamps them as true and accurate).

ML, thanks for the perspective. I will immediately cease all A discussion. I will try to clarify what was said though, even though I won't discuss it again with her. I said it doesn't matter if she admits to the A, that no matter what the A will end, and I will be there to work one our M.

Sorry for using quotes when I was not accurately expressing the discussion

I am not going to be a doormat or enabler. Unfortunately a couple of her sisters are active enablers, and her parents are passive enablers. Exposing to them last time did have a strong effect on WW though.

I will get the docs notarized. I will also go to library to get fiche prints of the newspaper articles about the assault case, which he also lied about.

i need to clarify my comments. It is ok to discuss the affair once you have evidence. Once oyu have evidence you should bring it up OFTEN and DEMAND that she end her affair. But by talking about it now, you just tip her off so she goes further underground.

Saying that you will love her no matter what and pre-emptively forgiving her is very inappropriate. Will you love her if she NEVER ends her affair? I assure you that you WON'T. Unconditional love gives her false expectations and fosters neglect and abuse.

And here you are dealing with the SECOND AFFAIR. Most spouses - rightly - would not put up with that. She is a serial cheater and in order to ever recover your marriage, she will have to make radical changes in her lifestyle. She has very poor boundaries around men and that has to change if you hope to save your marriage.


So, I would avoid saying things like this. It comes across as very uncaring and also tips her off that you suspect. That doesn't help, but hurts your chances.

Got it.

I donated my Surviving book to the local library a few years ago. buying a new one today. Is it available on audio?

Good idea! He completely rewrote SAA a few years ago to include a part on exposure. You can get it here: https://www.amazon.com/Surviving-Af...;sr=1-1&keywords=surviving+an+affair

My evidence gathering is going slower than I hoped. I haven't been able to get near her phone in a few days. She sits in the bathroom texting long after I've gone to bed.
Last time I got evidence in her vehicle, but since she just parks it and uses a different truck that won't work.

I contacted county court clerk for docs. There's a good chance clerk knows OM. Maybe he'll hire cronies to come after me too. If clerk doesnt come up with docs from abuse conviction, I'm not sure how else to get them. A PI would be good for that probably, but I just don't have the funds. I found and printed the newspaper articles about the hired assault. (it was supposed to be a hit but thugs chickened out).

I called for legal help today, and will know more tomorrow. I will do what it takes to keep OM away from our kids.

Any ideas on gaining access to phone?

Most County Clerk records are now available online. If you can't find them online yourself, email a moderator with the county, state and OM's name and have them email it to me. I'll see if I can find it. (I'm an attorney and a a bit more adept and understanding these websites than most).

Thanks Brits_Brat. Message sent. I felt stonewalled at the start of my conversation with the clerk and was told only she could get the information. She responded "Hmmmmph, okaaaay" when given OM name.

Forged, you are assuming that she is leaving the workplace to meet up with the OM. Is it possible that they are hooking up onsite? Theirs were the only 2 cars there, right?

It is prossible. OM lived at this farmhouse. He built a new office building on site, with kitchen and possibly sleeping quaters. He moved to a different house down the road, and gave farmhouse to his daughter. There is plenty of space to hide an A there. When I stopped there the other day, I walked right in, looked around and then called out. I did not go in the back room regrettably.

I tried at 3am to work on ware, but WW was sleeping in kids room due to nightmare, and had hidden phone. I woke them early when I left for work. and spotted her hiding spot for next try.

WW picked up sick DD from school today. She "stopped " at work with DD in the car to show OM our garlic planter. She left planter there, so now she has an excuse to go see OM tomorrow to pick it up. I'm curious why she thinks I would believe a big time farmer would need to see my rinky dink home made planter. I need to get some sort of surveillance in place now!

I'm not sure a PI would even help here, since we live in the country with no place to hide for observation.

I will stay up late and try loading the ware again. I know at least two of her best friends will be very influential one exposure starts. Once I get my ducks in a row...

WW was texting OM tonight, as I watched on the online log. Need the proof, need to expose.

Ready for the evidence to start piling up

I read a bunch of fog speak and now my brain and heart hurt.

Many deleted mssg to and from OM last night. I will see the next ones.

WW is a bitter woman. I never realized how much before now.

I have my work cut out for me.

We still have our first counselling session scheduled Tuesday with a Christian marriage counsellor. I might cancel if I haven't exposed yet. I think it would be a waste of money.

Have you read this and listened to the clips in here?
Beware of Bad Counselors

WHAT did she say? Do you have evidence of the affair?


It will actually hurt your marriage at a critical time.

Ok, now I've read, heard, and understood it. Cancelling tomorrow morning. When discussing it with WW last week, she had concerns such as "its supposed to be nice that day I wanted to plant garlic", and "kids have Halloween party day before and I have MOPS day after". Clearly she is not in the right place yet. Exposing the A is on the horizon.

Can you be more specific? I am not clear on what you mean. What do you mean she is not in the right place? What place?

Do you have evidence? What is your evidence?

By that I meant she in not in a mental place to work on M, thus, counselling would be a waste of time and money at the least, and a major catastrophe at the worst.

WW is chatting on the phone with facila-SIL with a lightness of being that makes it clear her EN are being met.

Evidence... I have very little, but I have equipment functioning now to gather evidence by the minute. I have a list of deleted texts late night to OM last night, but no contents. I have actual mssg contents of morning mssgs to OM, planning to meet today to get an unneeded garlic planter (who plants in the rain?)

I anticipate a landslide of info now that tools are active. Text is her primary mode of communication, and there were at least 30 deleted txt last night to OM. In the task manager, her camera showed a snap of the edge of her nightstand with her light on, but the images were deleted already. Apparently sending late night selfies to OM.

WW is offering to go to OM farm to get straw for our chicken coop. I said I would rather just buy some elsewhere. I am not sure if I should have just kept my mouth shut and let her go get it.

You definitely want the court info before you do any exposure because you want to include that.

Yes. Actual court docs, newspaper articles, Boy scout docs for character reference to increase concern and urgency. Photos and text and geo data to document A should be here soon.

I told WW that I cancelled counselling due to her timing concerns. She thanked me for being considerate of her needs. I expressed that the cancellation did not change our need to work on M.

How do I know when I have enough evidence to expose?

A Pink Floyd line just popped into my head:
"The evidence before me is incontrovertible, there's no need for the jury to retire."

Visiting any marriage counselor is a waste of time because they have no earthly idea how to save a marriage. Did you not want to use Marriage Builders? The reason Dr Harley created Marriage Builders is because MC does not work so he developed a program that does work.


How does this show you are meeting her ENs?



Do you have the ability to see these texts and pictures?


Why don't you let her go and then follow her there and catch her?

You need evidence that she is having an affair.

ML, her levity shows that someone is meeting her EN, NOT me.

I do now have ability to see communication and pics since about 4am today.

I can't follow and catch because I would have the twins, and the approach to the farm is wide open and I would not have surprise ability.

I am concerned bc I have seen MC discussed a few times on this thread, despite the posts telling you how dangerous it would be for your M.

Now it seems like you're putting it on the back burner until your WW is in the right "place" to work on the M? I didn't see an acknowledgement to ML's last post to you.

Listen, even if you expose and end the A, the MC could be a potential disaster. Counselors have no idea how to recover from an affair and typically support wayward mentalities. I have seen this here on the forum and IRL.

A MC (a Christian counselor btw) told me and my exWH that stringent EPs didn't need to be a focus since it was clear to her that my ex WH was "sorry" and "didn't want this to happen again". Which is the exact OPPOSITE advice needed. And he went on to cheat again due to lack of EPs.

Thank you for your concern. Please be assured that the information that Brain hurts shared has fully sunk in. When we seek counselling it will be phone counselling here.

WW was texting OM while we played boccee with the kids. She just texted " I can't wait to be in your arms again" "I miss you so much"

Apparently emoticons don't show on webwatcher, since there were several txt that just said "this may be a picture, if it is, look in the photo section"

OM just said "I can't wait either it's already been too long."

I'm walking away from this now to spend some more QT with the kids. I'll let the BS pile up for a while to keep my cool

Just so you know, many of us have done the program on our own using hte books, the workbooks and the radio show. We can help you recover and if you find you can't do it on your own, you could use the professional services here. My H and I went through the MB program in 2007 but many people have done a good job on their own so you have options.


Keep it coming, that is enough to expose but i bet you get better evidence today and tomorrow.


Did you look in the photo section? There shhould be a place where you can see the pictures.

ML, thanks for the ongoing support. We did it on our own last time but WW didn't want to do all the questionnaires. (red flag #1.)

Nothing in photos, and WW has a habit of just sending emoticons sometimes.

I hope to get more solid stuff re: sex abuse convictions, but I will move ahead with exposure either way once I get some stronger evidence.

When you were here before, the board members didn't understand the MB program. You weren't helped with affair proofing your marriage, for example. The board is completely different today so the quality of advice will be much improved, I promise you.



Great!! And bravo to you for getting the spyware in place!

I know I should expose to the twins, but I am not sure how to do it. Even though they are only 6, DD already saw that OM and WW acted like a couple. It breaks my heart.

I made a list of prime exposure contacts last night. I will start drafting my exposure letter.

I already spoke with our pastor a bit about this situation. I am wondering if I should blast out the exposure message to the list, and simultaneously expose the A to pastor in a meeting with WW. Would that be too much of an ambush? My reason for this thinking is that if she knows the church knows about A, she might stop going. If I expose with him, he can help steer her back into the fold.

Just trying to get my plan in order.

Read this and listen to the radio clips. Dr. Harley recommends to expose to as young as 4 years old.
Exposing to Children

You would simply tell them the truth. Explain to them that adultery is immoral and tell them how it is bad. Tell them how much it has hurt you.


Are you using the templates and directions from the Exposure 101 thread in my link? What about the OM's friends and family?

I
Use the procedures lined out in the exposure 101 thread. you should expose the affair ALONE to the pastor and ask him to speak to your wife.

What exactly od you mean when you say "blast out the xposure message" to the list? Did you read the exposure 101 thread?

I did read exposure 101, but will reread it tonight. I meant I would send individual exposure letters to each person on the list. By blast I meant all in one sitting. I realize it sounded like I would send a group text or something.

Gotcha! thanks for clarifying. Do you have a list of his contacts yet? Does he have a facebook page?

Read the 101 thread again... getting up to speed.

OM doesn't have FB account. His online rep is ruined at google results #2 and #3, documenting his violent crimes. I guess WW reading glasses are fogged.

I have snail mail addresses for OM's mother, two daughters, and his business. I have a list of other relatives from Been verified, but I am not sure how accurate it is. OM is divorced. Should I expose to OM XW?

A few evening texts, one is scaring me a bit:

OM: I miss u I'm drying these beans all by myself
WW: I wish I could of been there with you ⭐
OM: I miss u so much
WW: I miss you too! I can't wait to be in your arms again...
OM: It's already been to long I can't wait either
WW: I just got a strong feeling that BS is reading our texts. 15 minutes after our last texts he acted very different to me.
OM:R u surprised I told u. Tell him to come see me
WW:Not necessarily the best option
OM:Your right most of the time

WHAT? He wants her to tell me to come see him in all his felonious glory, and all she can say is not necessarily the best option? WHAT?

I need to expose asap. I am now more worried than ever about this jerk.

All I have for evidence now are text logs. I don't think I can distribute that for exposure.

Is his Mother and family on Facebook?

After you expose you can confront OM.

Read this "I encourage BHs to confront OM" Dr. Harley

Did you read the exposing to Children thread?

Also, "Don't put up with OM" per Dr. Harley

His mother is 80, not sure about FB for her. I have FB for one daughter.

I have no desire to confront this man.

Uh oh.
I started exposure inadvertently by FB mssg to OM D. I followed with emails to all of WW family and friends so that trickle effect wouldn't happen. I am confident that evidence available will be enough for WW family. Only facili-SIL knows about A currently. They will be deeply concerned about OM past, and our welfare.

I was simply trying to create a draft and off it went. I attribute it to lack of sleep.

From now on, draft in ms word. What did you send?

I sent a personalized form of this to each of WW targets. I omitted the convictions part and modified the wording slightly for OM D. I did draft in docs, but instead of saving draft FB message for later, I hit send.

Dear (friends and family )

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of (WW) and I. As some of you may know, we have been going through some marriage trouble. (WW) has told me that she is no longer in love with me, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason she does not want to try to fix our marriage is because she has been carrying on an affair with her new employer. He is the Grandfather of DD's friend. He is also a violent convicted felon and sexual abuser. She has denied the severity of these convictions, which were upheld upon appeal. She has allowed our children to be near this man, even allowing DS to ride with him in a tractor.

She refuses to acknowledge the affair. I still love (WW) and I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on (WW), please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end. Our children are being affected by this infidelity, and have picked up on the inappropriate nature of her relationship with OM.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with (WW) to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,
(BH)

I did not send to facila-SIL, which is likely why WW has not reacted yet. Her other siblings are likely conferring on the best course of action.

Did you put his NAME in there?

If you have not told these people the NAME of this dirtbag, I would get do that now. Finish your exposures today. I would also personally CALL her parents, close family and friends and ask them to follow up and speak to her. Ask them for their support.

You should also speak to your children today. Send exposure letters to his family via snail mail. Can you afford to overnight them?

What about the workplace? Is there anyone to expose to there?

When she finds out you have exposed and comes after you, I would DEMAND that she end her affair and never see or speak to the OM again. Tell her your children are never to be exposed to him again even if you have to get a court order. You need to be very clear and very FIRM about this. Ask her to send him a no contact letter TODAY:

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

I thought the forum was anonymous. I changed all entries in parentheses, including OM name.

We went to church together, and then shopping. She still doesn't know about exposure. I spoke with her siblings, and they are working on a conference call for this afternoon.

She now knows. Sisters are coming here to talk

This is what you appear to have written:

"...because she has been carrying on an affair with her new employer. He is the Grandfather of DD's friend. He is also a violent convicted felon and sexual abuser..."

That's all you appear to have written about him. There are no parentheses in that section, so where did you put his name?

Talking to HER? If anyone asks for the evidence, tell them you have been having them watched and they are having an affair.

I put full name at end of third paragraph. Targets have the details.

W admitted to an EA, but then clarified that it was actually a non sexual PA.

I am not asking questions and did not probe for that. I am adamantly stating that NC starts today. She blocked him on phone. We will send NC letter after her sisters leave. It's hard with the twins. I did not expose to them yet but will be doing so asap.

A lie. The texts referred to "in your arms again." That is physical.


How far do you live from his home and workplace?

Go tell her that now is the time to come clean, holding nothing back. Tell her you have evidence it was physical and that your marriage cannot recover unless she is completely honest. A marriage cannot recover based on lies.

If she won't tell you the truth, tell her you will need her to take a polygraph. She owes you the full truth.

Her mother and three sister just came to take her out to talk. NC letter will happen today. Honesty will come today.

Sisters know txt content. We live 1 mile from den of iniquity

Good!


You do realize you are going to have to move, right? She will be perpetually triggered and you will be dealing with this for YEARS unless you move.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Are there opportunities for workplace exposure? Is there an HR department?

Have you finished all your exposures? What about your kids?

OM owns the company and, if I'm not wrong, it's only 1 or 2 other people including WW.

She needs to quit her job.

She will quit job in the NC letter we send this evening.

We will sell our house and get the heck out of town, moving closer to her family.

Her sisters gave her a serious dose of reality. Off to work on the NC letter.

What about her assertion that the A was not physical? I can assure that it was.

And what about exposure to the children?

Has she agreed to 100% NC? Meaning she will never return to the workplace again?

Since your WW is a multiple offender, please take these EPs extremely seriously. None of these should be skimmed over.

How did your WWs first affair start? Was that also with a coworker?

She will not return to work. She is changing phone number tomorrow. She has agreed to 100% NC. We are working on NC letter tonight. Since txt was primary mode of communication, it will be the last text sent from her old number tomorrow.
We read through the EP list together, and will start work immediately. I am calling to schedule a phone session tomorrow.

Her EA statement was corrected quickly, but she says it was a non sexual physical affair. I will press on the topic as step 1 of the EP list. STD testing will need to be done either way, I think.

Her first affair was with a mutual friend.

She is now a weeping apologetic person. Sorry for what she did to our family, and sorry the A is ending.

How did that affair end?

Did either of you ever see the friend again? Did he live nearby? Did he remain in your circle of friends?

Originally Posted by SusieQ

And what about exposure to the children?

The first affair ended through exposure. It was much more deeply entrenched. It took a while to get myself on track and find evidence then. NC was fairly soon after exposure, and was complete. He lived in a different town, so separation was complete. The whole ordeal took nearly a year.

This time, the ordeal was less than a month. The problem is, we have to drive by OM farm to go anywhere, and OM drives equipment past our house frequently. It will be harder to get OM out of our circle, so to speak.

The kids handled exposure better than expected. They were relieved to hear that WW was not continuing the inappropriate relationship with OM. The had both picked up the negativity in our M and were likely blaming themselves.

We talked until late last night. We went over the EP requirements, and began to work on them. The first order of operation is to establish radical honesty. She did not give me an honest answer to my question about the nature of the A. I have information to support that, but I do not want her to know what the information is at this time.

She is still discussing things with facili-SIL, who lacks a moral compass. I will insist on an open policy with her communications starting today so that she can't continue to lead a dual life.

When discussing the NC last night, after I thought we were on the same page, she said "what about our garlic planter, I should go get our garlic planter." Clearly, the concept hadn't sunk in yet at that time. After further discussion, she now gets it. ( I hope)

I will press on the issue of radical honesty, and will let her know if she can't give straight answers a polygraph will be needed.

No, it won't be harder, it will be impossible unless you move. You have to make a choice, do you want to be married or do you want to live there. You absolutely cannot stay where you are and recover your marriage. You will be dealing with this affair for years and will finally divorce if you don't move.

...........this radio clip with Dr Bill Harley is the typical outcome when a couple does not move away from the OP. This WH, Bob, and his OW lived a mile apart and the affair has been on and off for 3 1/2 years. The BW is now divorcing him and their little boy is severely depressed. This is what happens when one ignores Dr Harley's recommendations for NO CONTACT FOR LIFE. We have seen this happen over and over again on the SAA board over the years.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2716
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2717
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2718

How contact should be ended:


here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Thanks Mel, I am not fighting to stay here at all. It will be a daunting task to minimize and move a full scale blacksmith shop, but that pales in comparison to the work we have to save M.

I requested and was begrudgingly granted access to her phone. I looked at her late night text telling SIL about my request for details and her dishonest answer. The panic emoticon said it all. I reestablished the requirements for radical honesty, and explained what that means.

I understand completely.


Some of the critical extraordinary precautions are eliminating all avenues of contact. That would mean getting a new phone #, email address, eliminating social media, etc. Have you gone over all this with her? She needs to ELIMINATE any avenue of direct access.

This is not of immediate concern, but it is pretty obvious your wife has poor boundaries around men and probably has opposite sex friendships. This is HOW affairs start.

Can you rent out your home and move away? There are many ways to get out of there. For example, you could rent a place 45 minutes away, move there and drive to your blacksmith shop for work. I don't know if that would work, but I would start brainstorming solutions NOW so you can get out of there.

We have established more boundaries. The phone number will be changed in a couple of hours. We need to go to the bank within the hour to deposit 2 paychecks since they are under the table, and WW has no proof she worked. Once the deposit is made, the NC letter will go out, then the number will change.

She has reliably handed me the phone each time she has received a text. She has blocked OM, deleted contact, and deleted text thread.

We have discussed the nature of the A, and the timing. After fits and starts, I believe WW understands the policy of radical honesty. It started when he kissed her and she reciprocated the first week of her job (~9/28) It progressed from that point gradually, and became physical by the end of the second week. It increased in intensity to the point of mutual gratification a week later, and then oral. I stopped her at that point, gave her a list of required labs, and asked her to call her doctor for an exam.

On the home front, we have zero savings, and are income limited since she is no longer working. We live in the boonies, and our property is not really rentable. I am making the address change a priority, but it will take time. I do not make income as a blacksmith any more, and I will need to liquidate some of the equipment and materials in order to even show the place. This is a sad but necessary outcome of the A. My children love working in the shop, and have been swinging hammers since they were two.

I know I am singing the blues here, but it will be hard to make a quick exit from this "homestead". I will find every available option to make it happen as quickly as possible. In the meantime we are developing strategies to avoid triggers and inadvertent contact.

We have discussed her boundaries, and will work on that in our coaching sessions.

You are doing great and I was cheering until I got to this point:

"boundaries, and will work on that in our coaching sessions."

What is a coaching session?? And why do you need a "coaching session" to establish boundaries?

Can you exchange phones?

If you are talking about MB phone coaching with Steve or Jen, I can tell you that I have had experience with both and also talking to Dr Harley on the radio show, as well as doing the online program.

Since your WW is a serial/multiple cheater, your best bet is to eliminate any opportunity for a SSL and for affairs. That means that on top of the EP list you were provided from SAA, you spend all of your free time together and you probably want to look very closely at any type of job for your WW - probably will be best for her to avoid jobs were she is working closely, one on one or for long hours with men.

That is the advice I got from Dr Harley, so I would recommend you write to him on the radio show, outline the 2 affairs your WW has had with the close friend and then the coworker and be sure to point out how quickly the affair happened after she hadn't been in the workforce and how quickly it progressed.

I'm not sure that you will be that same advice from his kids from my own experience. And your M cannot afford any more affairs.

I will consider the phone swap.

Isn't the marriage builders phone counselling called coaching?

We don't need help to establish boundries. We might need help figuring out why WW has trouble with boundries.

Thanks for clarifying! I was getting concerned. But you don't need to go to coaching to develop boundaries. You can follow Dr Harley's checklist.


She has trouble with boundaries because she does not observe them. She needs to observe proper boundaries. That will solve the problem. She needs to END all opposite sex friendships and stop having personal conversations with men.

She has trouble because it feels good to get her ENs met by other men outside of the M. It's really as simple as that.

I talked to Dr Harley about this EXACT issue with my ex, and he gave me the same answer that he has on this site. Spending time on the "why" is a big waste of your time and will not help you to recover the marriage.

Waywards love to go to counseling to talk about the WHY vs actually putting EPs into place.

Thanks SusieQ for this info on the coaching. I have had a solo session with Steven, which helped a lot with Plan B last time. I will write to Dr. Harley, and will extend the EP list as suggested. We are currently watching the infidelity video on the MB site. When we are done I will discuss the "extra" layers of protection that will be required.

I have taken another day off work for more discussions and rebuilding. Yesterday we spent all day together, with Halloween parties for kids, a walk in the woods midday, and trick or treating at night. We stayed up late talking and watching MB videos, then held each other as we fell asleep.

WW will be tested today for STD, one of hurdles to rebuilding intimacy.

Tomorrow I will work, and WW will got to a MOPS meeting at church and will spend the rest of the day with an informed female church friend.

Webwatcher is still in stealth mode.

Good job! And a word of warning, your spyware should stay in stealth mode forever. FOREVER. Radical honesty does not apply to spy resources.

NC letter was sent.


OM, I want you to know that out of respect for my husband and children I have realized that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel and selfish act that my family did not deserve. While I can't completely repay my husband for the pain I have caused him, I will make sure that this will not happen again. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

10 minutes before she sent it, I stopped at farm to retrieve our garlic planter, see OM face to face, and request final paycheck. I got the planter unobserved, and did not see anyone. I heard a tractor so I drove to back of barn, got out and said "Are you OM? I am WW husband. I came to get garlic planter and WW final paycheck."

He said she was on direct deposit. Unfortunately WW went on the books last week. I said "Thank you. Please do not contact WW again." He pointed at me threateningly, and said "Don't tell me what to do." I said, "I am simply making a request that you will also hear directly from her." Then I drove off.

Was that an actual letter or do you mean text? I don't think this OM will take a text seriously at all.

Who was exposed to on the OM side?

I'm really worried that there will be more d-days in your future until you get out of there.

It should have been hand-written by your wife, and checked and sent, or emailed, by you.

She sent it?

How did she send it?

Did you witness the sending?

If this is what happened, he's not going to take the NCL seriously and if your WW refuses to send a letter, shes probably not serious either.

She sent it via text,the only form of communication they had except face to face. She can send it in writing as well. I watched her send it. I saw the delivery confirmation on WW.

Phone number will be changed today.
We are sitting at clinic for testing.

We have planned and utilize alternate routes to avoid OM house and farm.

PA kissing happened at farm several times. SC oral occurred at OM house 3 times at lunch, most recently last thursday. No Intercourse occurred.

She is completely willing to send in writing, and was simply following my (poor) suggestion to send via txt since that is how they communicated.

I understand now that written would be more personal. We will have to drive past OM house after clinic to get address. We will also send to farm.

I could only target OM mom and daughter. OM is sole proprietor with only a few employees. No social media active according to been verified. I got no response from daughter, and snail mail perhaps arriving today for mother.

Unfortunately many WS will trickle truth their BS's. She started by saying this was a non PA and has escalated to physical but no intercourse - again, this is normal.

I'm sorry to tell you that I don't believe her. I think the only way you will be able to know for sure is by poly. The thing that usually keeps an A from being full blown PA is if there is no opportunity = the affairees don't have access to each other, i.e. An online affair. But here, there was ample opportunity.

Did she ever admit the first affair was a full blown PA or did she trickle truth out in that case as well?

The problem is if she is by herself, there is nothing to stop her from going over there. You cannot trust her to have the self-control not to go there. That is not the way NC works. It is the opposite, if she has opportunity you should expect for her to be very tempted and the likelihood of broken NC to be very high.

I'm sorry to be a Debbie Downer and the only reason I am pointing these things out is that I don't want you to keep getting hit by the dday train.

I would have to agree. Something that stood out to me is that she has had an affair before, and it took her less than 1 week to start this affair with OM. Get a poly. It will help her know that you expect 100 transparency now and forever.

ETA:

Considering that it was less than a week, I would also ask in the poly about any other affairs you don't know about. Wouldn't surprise me.

She asked me to sit in (awkward) on std exam yesterday. Doctor said she was not sexually active and had to go get smaller equipment. We have had intercourse only once in last year.

She did not trickle last time, after realizing that full disclosure was essential to my agreement to save M. Shortly after DDAY I had the whole truth.

Handwritten NC letter has been mailed. WW wrote it and I didn't have to change anything.

OM, I am writing to you so that you know the relationship I had with you has ended. It was thoughtless and selfish. It hurt many people, particularly my husband and kids, who did not deserve to be treated that way. I am committed to my marriage and determined to make up for all the hurt I've caused my family. I love my family deeply and will no longer do anything to risk their happiness. I will not be contacting you and ask that you do the same. I do not want to see or hear from you. Please respect my decision to end our relationship and have no further contact.

Thank you,
WW

Mailed by whom?

We put it in box together, but it is our roadside box. Now I am having concerns that it will be changed. WW sister (not facili-SIL ) told her it sounded like I wrote it. I spoke with her. She said WW should say she no longer has feeling for OM. I said letter should not be empathetic in any way.

She was supposed to go to MOPS today, but she said she was too emotional. Now I am at work and she is home alone with a spurned rapist around the corner.

She has been on phone with sister for a long time.

Just leave it as is. The letter was written by Dr Harley.


Just know that every time you leave is an opportunity for her to see him. It will drive you crazy.

forged, I want to applaud you for stepping up! You have a long way to go to save this, but you have bravely taken the right steps. I would spend all your focus on moving because you won't be in recovery until that happens.

I am okay with her modifying the letter a little bit . It will be mailed today either way. I will approve the wording and we will mail it together. I do not want her to say I made her do it, or put the words in her mouth. She needs to feel it, say it, and send it for it to mean anything. She understands that my approval and the deadline are set in stone.

After Brits_Brat gave real court info, I honestly think WW is afraid of OM. Seeing the facts on NYS letterhead (all three pages) had a profound effect.

We are searching for options to make a quick exit from town. We will get a new car for WW to increase stealth in the meantime.

I thought you said it had already been written and placed in the post box. You are not being very clear here.

Any time the WS wants to deviate from what Dr Harley has written, that is a red flag. There is NO reason to change it, period.

No, she doesn't need to "feel it" in order for it to "mean anything". Most WS probably don't mean it since they are still in a state of fog when the NC is sent. But it is part of just compensation and there is no reason to deviate.

Red flags being thrown up here.

While that sounds nice, I wouldn't count on it. We have had WSs have affairs with dangerous people and also expose their children to said dangerous people and they don't just "wake up". True NC (not present here) and getting away might accomplish somewhat that but this OM will always be a threat to your M.

Please don't deviate from what MB teaches. The A is like an addiction and your WW will be tempted, period.

That's good that you're looking to make a quick exit. I would take it a step further than getting a new car and just try not to leave your WW alone as much as humanly possible.

She will be tempted. It's not just the OM that you need to protect her from (giving her a hidden vehicle) - it goes both ways.

I'm seeing the red flags and am driving home now. Om daughter got the message today she says she has no influence over her father but that she is incredibly disappointed I am concerned that she will speak to him and increase irrational Behavior so I am going home to be with WW.

Your WW is "disappointed" that you don't trust her? I don't understand what you are saying.

I am concerned that the daughter will speak to om causing an irrational outburst. We put the envelope in the mailbox this morning our pickup is in the afternoon after talking with WW, I realized that her sister convinced her to modify the letter. WW told me she wanted to change it and said she would wait until I got home to send it

Is this the sister that your W is getting advice regarding NCL from? Someone you called an enabler?

She needs to discuss recovery of this marriage with you and stop talking to the sister.

SusieQ, the SIL in quotes is Facili-SIL. SIL today is not enabler, but still thinks this is about feelings and closure.

I am sooo confused. Why would your DD speak to the OM? How would she have any contact?

The SIL needs to butt out and stay out of this. She has no earthly idea what she is doing.

I think he means the OM's DD that he exposed to is going to confront OM and then OM will then do something.

Did you hear this NCL advice from the SIL yourself?? Because wanting closure is wayward speak.

Thanks SusiQ That is it exactly. OM's daughter just got the message, and likely will confront OM> I wanted to be here in case that happens. I took off work tomorrow too.

WW added one line to the above letter, and I do not object.
"I have given this a lot of thought, and my feelings for you have changed. I am committed to my marriage..."

I know it is not the stock letter, but it is not adding any sorrow or regret to the mix, simply stating a fact.

I did hear this directly from SIL about closure. It does sound like WW speak. She also said that WW should unblock OM to see what he says. I pointedly explained that this is a "no contact" letter, and that this is a deal breaker if it doesn't happen properly.

Yikes. That's the opposite of what you want. This SIL needs to get out of the picture, pronto.

Have you told your children?

Another setback. WW discovered web watcher due to a software glitch. She was upset. She didn't demand that I remove it but made it clear it was a problem. This has not been a good day. I know the flags that this throws.

She said that she was upset that I lied to her after we agreed to radical honesty. When she aked if I was reading her texts, I said no.

I pointed out that I hadn't betrayed her, and that I had caught lies since d-day, such as severity of PA details. It was a back and forth that went nowhere fast.

I offered to install it on my phone as well, but ended up uninstalling it from hers.

I don't feel good about this at all.

The kids know.

I've looked around here, and don't see how to write in to Dr Harley on the radio show. Can you please steer me in the right direction.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Let her know that you will be watching her from now on AND WILL NOT TELL HER YOUR RESOURCES. THAT IS PRIVATE. You have a right to protect yourself from her destructive behavior. Stop acting like you did something wrong. You need to learn to be a better snooper. And STOP offering to put spyware on your phone, that is silly. you have not had an affair.

Radical honesty DOES NOT APPLY TO ABUSE OR INFIDELITY.

You just need to be a better snooper. That is the only thing wrong here.

X100

]
Did she get a new #? And do you have a plan to get more spyware on her phone?

Did she agree to ALL the items on this list? Technical accountability means that she hides nothing from you on her devices. So having spyware on shouldn't upset her.

I have to tell you Forged, this is classic for a serial cheater: They will show extreme remorse when caught, agree to everything that is asked of them and then will backslide over time. They cling to their IB and SSL (secret second lives).

This is what Dr Harley talks about and this is what I experienced for myself. You need to be prepared for this reality and how you are going to handle it.

Technical accountability is EASY compared to some of the other EPs so I am real worried about your situation.

It makes no sense that she would be upset about this unless she had something to hide. If reading her texts would clear her name, wouldn't that be a good thing? A guilty spouse always tries to condemn the BS for spying.

And I am sorry to tell you that I googled the situation with the doctor basically commenting that they could tell how long it's been since your W had sex by physical examination and what I saw online is that is not true.

I have never heard of that and thought it sounded weird.

This renews those feelings I had about a poly. With your WW being a serial cheater and not admitting to a full blown PA, I would just make sure you have the 100% truth about this affair and making sure there are no others.

A poly is a good first step to eliminating your WW's SSL.

The ware gave her a sync failure notification which caused discovery.

I understand that I did not have an affair, but my benign neglect led her to the point of her bad decision. I did not cause the affair, but I did not prevent it either.

She willingly shares her phone with me, and we compare to the log to see if anything was deleted.

BTW, ware delete was unsuccessful. She has stopped texting it appears. That is good since she has been getting bad advice regularly. I will let it ride as is.

I checked phone log back to the only other contact WW had with OM, a kids party with OM granddaughter. There was no record of text or call to or from his number, or any other unidentified number since that time, prior to the declared start of a.

You have a real problem on your hands and it has nothing to do with neglect and everything to do with a WS who has HORRIBLE boundaries with the OS.

Your WW's A with this OM took off very fast. That's not really normal. It IS normal for a serial cheater however.

If RADICAL changes are not made, this WILL happen again.

The fact that she "willingly shares" the phone does not mean very much. You can do things on the phone that will not show up on any "log" but will show up on spyware.

Your WW is well aware of this fact.

Forged, you need to wake up here real fast.

Imessages do not show up on the "phone log".

Third party messaging apps will not show on the phone log.

Logging into social media and looking at the OM's page will not show up on the phone log.

The list goes on and on.

The fact that she does NOT want spyware in and of itself is a reason for alarm, Forged. You need to wake up and start listening to us instead of spinning this to make it seem better in your head.

Oh no. What led to her affair was her poor boundaries with men. If she had not allowed another man to meet her needs, this would have never happened. This will continue happening unless this is addressed and resolved. "Neglect" causes bad marriages, it does not cause affairs.


That is good! However, anything she "willingly shares" is suspect. You need to have spyware on her phone that she doesn;'t know about. Anything she knows about helps her hide.


Good! And of course you should not tell her this. Radical honesty does not apply to infidelity or abuse.


WHEN did this happen?

Even a wetbrain can work around this. She can just go and meet him. She can call him from a landline, she can get an "affair phone."

I would again assert that putting spyware on your phone completely misses the point. You have not had an affair. She is a SERIAL CHEATER.

I did not put ware on my phone. Please rest assured I am not spinning this, there is nothing good about this.

OM doesn't have a Facebook page, and didn't even know his criminal activity was online based on intercepted info on dday.

WW is not tech savvy, and has not cleared history or cache on computer. I am not sure she knows how. I will look at those things again this evening for accounts I don't recognize.

We do not have a landline, and I searched every inch of home and car for A phone, several times before dday and after.

Is the webwatcher still in place?

In addition to this put a VAR in the house to see if she has a secret phone.

VAR is how A#1 was busted. I will get a new smaller version tomorrow. Watcher is still watching. WW has not been texting. I gently demanded that she cease marital conversations with SIL and facili-SIL. We went over the EP checklist today, and she thought she was doing better than she really was. I pointed out that even though she has not to my knowledge contacted OM, she still listened to and considered advice from SIL that was contrary to the requirements of blocking communication and ensuring complete separation from OM.

I have made sure she was not alone all week, for safety and sanity. Tomorrow she is going to visit her mother while the kids are in school, since I have a Dr. appt and need to go to work.

Today, she produced a bag of tshirts, coats, hats and other rubbish that OM had given her. It went straight into the trash.

OM daughter responded to a question I asked the other day. I asked if she had mentioned to OM that she knew about A (because of my message) She said that OM had told her about the "ended" A before she read my message. I was surprised to hear that.

Your child has been exposed to the OM since you exposed?? How is that?

OM's daughter, not Forged's.

Mel, my lingo must be off since I keep messing up stuff about the daughter of the other man. My children have been under my direct supervision since dday.

My children were exposed to him the night of DD frieds party 8/13, and two other times.

WW does not use IM on phone. I have access to all apps, and none are installed, I think things are moving in the right direction, and var should confirm that.

I have become as worried about SIL bad advice as I am about OM being evil

whew!

WW received text from OM today, despite being on blocked list. WW swore on bible that she did not unblock number. Somehow I had forgotten to change her number. It has been changed now.

I told WW that I saw text on online log. When I got home she handed me phone and said "read it, this is your fault, this is because you told his DD" I politely informed her that there would be no message if there was no A. I asked that she not blame me for her mistake. I told her the clock was reset, and further contact would prevent us from resolution of our marriage problems.

OM said "U Text me Tuesday and told me that already in now I got a letter today in the mail from you tell me the same thing now here's what I got to say if your a
hole husband ever contact one of my family membersor upsets my daughter again there's going to be big trouble and you know what I mean that's all I got to say"

Needless to say this resets the clock. It increases my urgency to get the heck out of dodge.

You didn't change her #?

[{ }]

Hanging my head in shame

I made a mistake... and it set us back.

Were all the other things on the EP list completed and/or agreed to by your W?

yes. I blocked myself on her phone tonight and texted her... Apparently it only blocks calls, since my text went through. That means om didn't text her until he got her letter.

Long day! First injection to fix my low T, and first contact by OM.

And she said I could put Watcher back on her phone

A complete wasted resource. Anything spy resource she knows about is useless.

Mel, geolocate data will still be useful even if it is known. VAR will be installed today. She is going to go buy some supplies for a project. I should be able to catch contact then if it exists. In a few days I can offer to "delete" watcher.

How concerned should I be about the threat in his text? Is that sufficient to contact law enforcement?

How? If I know you have geolocate on my phone, I will leave my phone in a place you expect me to be or turn it off.

She understands and has agreed to technical accountability. If she turns off her phone, it will show up as unreachable. If she leaves it, she will not be able to check in per our agreement. VAR in place and active today.

How often does she check in? Every 5 minutes? He only lives a mile away.

How often are you checking? Every 5 minutes? And what if her phone goes out of order or something? "Sorry you couldn't reach me but my phone froze up and I couldn't get it started!!"

It would be best if you guys set aside errands until you can do them together.

She drove opposite direction confirmed by geo. She never turned her phone off, and checked in at destination.

VAR revealed that she listened to SAA chapter 7 and 8 while eating potato chips or other crunchy snack. No calls except to me from any phone.

SusieQ, I wanted the chance to test VAR.

VAR will be in place for the week. WW will be stuck home with sick kids, they both have pink eye and croup.

Mel, I understand the much lower value of watcher now that it is known. One very important thing has happened though, she has broken her dependence on texting. She had over 2000 msg last cycle. She would txt facili-SIL as much as OM, so her head was constantly being filled with bad advice. She has stopped txt to all SILs and OM.

WW attitude has changed dramatically. She is remorseful and is striving to meet my EN. She made dinner last night for the first time in nearly 2 months.

When she visited her parents Friday, she was belittled, berated and shamed. That afternoon OM sent her the only txt to her phone since NC request. I accused and blamed her for unblocking, when in reality I didn't properly block by changing her number.

She has told me repeatedly that it is over, and she is fearful of OM. She has apologized for putting our family and our marriage at risk.

We have begun meeting each other's needs for SF again. I am cautiously optimistic. Feel free to temper my optimism with reality.

I am not trying to be a wet blanket, but you should know that none of the above will prevent an affair. None of it. You must have good spy resources in place and you must have a plan to move.

Agree. The changed attitude really doesn't mean anything.

Like I posted to you before, serial cheaters are KNOWN for being remorseful and agreeing to everything and then backtracking over time.

You need to get away from this OM and implement ironclad EPs for LIFE.

Has her number been changed?

Yes, immediately after OM text threat.

We spent the day together working on house purging clutter, gearing up to list house. It will be a long process but progress was made. WW was remorseful and loving all day.

When we are apart last week, her mood shifted to anger or resentment. I haven't seen that this weekend. Tomorrow will be a big test with VAR.

No data from VAR yet. Kids are home sick with WW. Security cameras are on order; some will be known some will be hidden. I think I will "uninstall" watcher today to restore stealth . I'm not letting down my guard, but WW is acting much different and it seems like she has let go of OM.

VAR has not provided any new data. Watcher is back in stealth mode, and there have not been any indications of contact or attempted contact. WW has been with sick kids all week. She has maintained steady contact with me throughout each day. She has not been seeking advice from SIL at all. She has been consistently expressing remorse, and gratitude for my willingness to work on M.

We are trying to expedite house sale. We are working on the HNHN seminar DVDs. WW and I have been reading and listening to SAA. We completed th EN questionnaire yesterday but haven't discussed it yet. We are both working on the LB questionnaire today.

Good job!!! One of the most critical components of creating romantic love is the policy of undivided attention. The program doesn't work without this step. Dr. Harley recommends 4 - 4 hour dates per week. We sit down on Sunday afternoon and plan out our dates using this worksheet: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/FiveSteps_Time_for_Undivided_Attention_Worksheet.pdf

That worksheet is in the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook in the book store.

We have spent all free time together, and have worked on SF every night this week.
We are going to MC today, armed with SAA, LB, Five Steps workbook, HNHN, questionnaires, and an enthusiastic agreement that if MC doesn't want to help us according to the plans laid out in MB materials, we will not go back. WW wants to go to help us work through my potential resentment, our communication issues, and issues with SF in past. I want to go to make sure of her understanding of new boundaries regarding the way she relates to men in general. She has always had a provocative sense of humor, and that must change (except when used with me.)

The solution to these issues is all in Marriage Builders. We address every single one of them. I am not sure what it means to "work through resentment." What does that even mean?

1. resentment. This is resolved by creating a fantastic, romantic marriage. When one is happy in the present, the mind does not tend to go to the past. if you don't create a happy, fulfilling marriage, your resentment WILL GROW

2. communication. this is a very minor problem that is resolved by creating romantic love. People in love don't have "communication" problems - this seems to be a popular buzzword in the counseling culture

3. not sure what SF issues you had, but 90% of them are resolved by creating romantic love

I am very concerned that you are going to a marriage counselor, because most do not even BELIEVE that romantic love is possible and have no earthly idea how to achieve it. Instead, they destroy the remnants of remaining love between a couple by placing them in a room together to lovebust each other. This is exactly why Dr Harley does not believe in counseling couples together when their marriage is in a state of crisis. They leave the session worse off than when they went in.


It is good that you are having this discussion but what if the MC doesn't understand how destructive opposite sex friendships are to a marriage? Then you are screwed. Does your wife understand she can't have opposite sex friendships? Does she accept this? Does she understand she should never have a personal conversation with a man?

In short, Marriage Builders concepts are in direct conflict with traditional counseling. Dr Harley believes - and so do I - that traditional counseling is destructive to marriages.

WW and I are solidly in agreement that if MC does not understand or follow MB principles, we will not discuss anything else.

SF issues stemmed from loss of romantic love due to my very low T and very low libido. This is being fixed now, and results are already evident after first injection.

WW understands concerns about friendships with opposite sex, but I am not sure she understands fully what other changes are needed (using innuendo as humor device with anyone but me, private conversations, etc.)

Good! And I would also agree beforehand that you NEVER commit lovebusters in your sessions. If you are invited to discuss negativity about the other person, the sessions will harm you. The solution is to stay entirely focused on your PLAN for a great marriage. If you go there and rehash the past, you are doomed.


Perfect, and I would agree 100% with your assessment.



I would be crystal CLEAR in expressing what bothers you in her communication. She needs this kind of guidance.

Critical questions for your MC would be:

do you agree with our objective of creating romantic love?

do you agree that we need to work on steps to create a great marriage while AVOIDING the bad things from the past?

See, if she encourages you to dredge up every bad feeling from the past, the sessions will be destructive.

Session completed. She does believe in creating romantic love. She encouraged us to continue SF, but to focus equally on RC, conversation, openness and honesty.

She did say that the past things may need to be discussed, but that building our love now is most critical. Afterwards, WW and I talked, and she agreed that the past should stay in the past.

She suggested that WW look up narcissist and sociopath to see which traits could be attributed to OM, stating that WW was likely groomed during prior interactions. ??

OMG.

She suggested that YOUR WIFE look up these things, in order to analyse OM?

The OM she should be putting firmly out of her mind?

If this marriage counsellor believes that people who have affairs might be narcissists and sociopaths, what does that say about your wife?

Is she aware that your wife had an affair before? How about she talks to your wife about strengthening her poor boundaries, instead of encouraging her to focus on OM's personality?

This counsellor will harm your marriage, and you should ditch her. We warned you about this, and her lack of expertise raised its head in the very first session. She said what you wanted her to say about agreeing with Dr Harley, but then she reverted to her own methods, which include talking about the past.

Of course she agreed that you should work on SF, RC and conversation and O&H. Who in their right minds would say that these were wrong? But to her, O&H means rehashing the affair, and as for getting your wife to think more about OM...

She is a danger to your recovery. You have been warned.

Good, because dredging up the past might be great for the bank account of therapists, but it is not good for the clients! It is a good way to keep clients coming back for YEARS to dredge up the past.


This type of advice is what we were worried about. The OM should not be discussed at all. Dr Harleys advice would be to never bring him up again. MOST people in an affair have all the traits of a narcissist so this is a moronic exercise. You can go look up your wife and find the same traits.

If you exercise appropriate boundaries, then it doesn't matter what other people are doing. Your door would be shut to "grooming".

This is extremely dangerous thinking for a repeat offender like your W, to scape goat the affair onto the OM when she just needs to look at her OWN affair-proofing behavior.

Oh boy.

WW and I both thought that request was strange, to say the least. We talked more about this evening, and will not be going back.

We are both committed to the MB program.

*RELIEF* We can help you through this program. Will you pick up the workbook and Lovebusters? And you do have Surviving an Affair, right?

You can also get free advice from Dr Harley on his radio show if you need it.

We have the workbook, SAA book, Love Busters book. Tonight we watched the first DVD of His Needs Her Needs. WW said she really enjoyed it.

I am glad we went to counselling today, because WW had claimed we didn't completely work through things in the past, but now she has acknowledged that is not what we need.

We are continuing to learn how to meet each other's EN. Last night I felt like we needed to discuss boundries in greater detail. I have been nagged by fog speak she had with Facili-SIL that had not been addressed. I told her that I would not be comfortable with her relationship with Facili-SIL remaining the same. I requested that she cease all relationship talk with her. She has not been discussing this with her lately, but I wanted WW to understand that this must be a permanent change. She agreed, and deleted entire text thread she had with her. I said that I would never be comfortable with her hanging out with Facili-SIL in a social non-family setting if I was not present. She said she understood, and was remorseful for "screwing everything up."

I asked her why she didn't have intercourse with OM. She looked uncomfortable since this was the first detail question I asked since DDay. She said that he initiated sexual contact, she hesitated then reciprocated. She said that they "didn't get there " I asked why, and she said they posibly would have but he finished early each of the four times they were intimate. I'm really not sure why I asked. I just need to put all of the images in my head to rest.

Our children are thrilled with the new closeness in our family. We have had many good days since d-day. We are both pushing very hard to make lasting changes to our relationship. I thank God for this place, and all of you wonderful people!

That's a great update, Forged!

How much UA time are you two getting in a week (away from children and outside of the house)?

We have had plenty of SF, but not enough UA as you described. We have taken a few walks in the woods, but not enough. Dealing with sick twins since Halloween has made it hard to get someone to watch them for us. We have date night planned for Friday, and a family night bowling with friends on Saturday. I hope to go kayaking with WW Saturday morning if the weather cooperates.

Why are you still talking about the affair? Did you ask all your questions?

You always ask the good questions. Why am I still talking about it? I thought I had asked all I wanted to know, but that question kept popping into my head. We had a good discussion about it, and now I can close the door on it altogether.

I saw OM at grocery store. He did not recognize me. It made me glad I do all of the shopping. Even if we move 2 towns over, that is still the store we would shop at. WW said if she saw him anywhere she would move away quickly. The kids know to run if they see him.

Taking care of sick children earns LB points! That in and of itself is of great value if domestic support is one of her top EN's!

It will be vital to your recovery to get in the appropriate UA time weekly. There will always be reasons to skip it here and there and you guys will need to find a way to make it a priority. And family bowling unfortunately does not count. You are going to have to find babysitters and other work-arounds to make this happen.

Many people try to skirt over this part of MB and it NEVER works. So start thinking of ways to make this happen WEEKLY. For life.

I think you are BOTH going to be triggered and OM's name will be a temptation for you to bring up over and over as long as you live there. That's what I've seen over the years with people who don't move far away from the OP. Its harmful to R each time you guys talk about the A or OM. Please don't do it anymore.


Ok, you know that you need to move further than 2 towns away, right?

just know this is how affairs start again. This is WHY you need to move to a place where you can't run into him. Every time your wife sees him or hears about him her feelings will be triggered.


You won't be telling you if she decides to resume her affair. Which she is likely to do since her feelings are perpetually triggered. Promises mean nothing. Keep in mind she made a solemn VOW to you when she married you. She broke it many times and will not hesitate to break her "promise" to not see the OM again.

We are working to make the move happen. We are underwater on our mortgage, and those payments are 60% of my current salary. We have zero savings, so the prospects are limited.

I am aware of and concerned by the possibility of inadvertent contact, and the feelings that contact will generate. I am saddened by the fact that we will have to sell the house we designed and built with our own hands, but I understand the necessity of the move.

Mel, WW is currently disgusted with herself for the A, and for the fact that she did not see OM for the evil person he is. I realize that all of this is just the flipside of the fog, though, and could easily change if the circumstances were right.

On a more positive note, I made a major deposit into WW love bank yesterday. She had mentioned a church mothers group event that she wanted to go to on Friday. She said she would not go so that we could go on our date night. Her girlfriend also wanted to go, but did not have childcare. I volunteered to watch her kids with our kids so that they could go the event together. She will be picking up WW so that the can drive together. We moved date night to Sunday evening.

We are working through the MB program, and are committing a minimum of 1 hour every day to the process, with multi hour blocks of time at least once a week. We are developing our plan for more UA, and have been reaching the 15 hour goal so far. This has mostly been in our home, so I am really pushing for more recreation time outdoors without the kids, since it is one of our favorite things to do together.

That was a mistake. You should not put anything ahead of your marriage - not even something as wholesome as a church mothers' group. The message you have sent to your wife is that the event is less important than your marriage, and by asking for the date night to be changed, your wife has sent the same message to you.

You'll probably say that your wife did not ask for date night to be changed, but I think she "mentioned" the event, and her friend who had no childcare, and her willingness to forego the event in favour of your date night...precisely so that you would get the hint and offer to move the date night. In other words, she was not willing to forego the church event to go on a date with you.

You need to agree, as a couple, that your date nights (or days) will be scheduled a week in advance, and that, once scheduled, they are immovable. Don't put anything ahead of your marriage.

The only UA time that can be done in the home is SF. Anything else needs to be done outside the home, on a date. Dr Harley is adamant on this. Apart from SF, the time you have been spending at home does not count.

Back to the drawing board.

Remember: your wife owes you "just compensation" for the two affairs that you know about. She needs to go above and beyond to make sure that Dr Harley's checklist for surviving affairs is followed. This means that your marriage should be her priority, now and for ever. Getting you to postpone date night is showing that she does not see your marital recovery as the priority.

What your wife could do, for example, is watch her friends' kids (though not on what was supposed to be your date night) as part of a reciprocal arrangement, so that you have enough credit to call in the favour for more date nights or days. One block per week won't cut it.

That is cute and winsome......and meaningless. It is like the alcoholic who SWEARS off drinking the morning after he gets caught. He swears it off until the sting of the last drink wears off and then he drinks again. That is what you are facing. I hope you don't have to find this out the hard way.


You don't make "major lovebank deposits" by babysitting while your wife goes out with someone else. You make major lb deposits when you are with her. You can't meet her top intimate emotional needs [the ones that create romantic love] if you are not there.

Isn't your marriage a little more important that this event?


Please sit down with the worksheet and plan out your week for your DATES. You are pencil whipping this exercise and I assure you that your wife will NEVER fall in love with you again unless you get serious.

Print this out TODAY: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/FiveSteps_Time_for_Undivided_Attention_Worksheet.pdf

Go sit down with your wife TODAY and plan out 4 - 4 hour dates with your wife OUT OF THE HOUSE. This program does not work without this step. So all the other things you are doing are a waste of time if you refuse to do this.

The best protection from another affair, other than extraordinary precautions is to be in love with each other. It takes 15 hours of UA time per week to MAINTAIN romantic love and 20-25 hrs per week to CREATE. Your wife is not in love with you. Do you want her to be in love with you?

UA time should be spent out of the house on DATES with no kids, and no friends around. You should focus on the intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. <----------those are the EN's that create romantic love.

The other non intimate EN's do not create romantic love. So, babysitting your kids while she goes out will not create romantic love.

And babysitting someone else's kids will create even less.

There's a misapplication of MB principles happening here. You can't excuse away an opportunity for UA time by saying, Oh, instead I let the W do this activity she loves and made a huge deposit! It doesn' work that way.

The information that posters are giving to you regarding UA time is clearly laid out, right here on this site and it takes minutes to read. Other activities with family and friends only come into play AFTER UA time is met.

Forged, given that this is your WW's 2nd affair, you cannot afford to cherry pick through this program again.

There was a poster here who for YEARS told us how disgusted his WW was with herself for the A and hated the OM etc etc.

The M never recovered and the WW ended up doing some things that Dr Harley told this BH was not compatible with having a happy M and he should separate/D.

My ex WH expressed extreme remorse, cried real tears, denounced his OW in a similar fashion and was willing to do MB, etc etc. Three years later, he went on to have another affair.

Please ignore all this talk from your WW. This is not that uncommon for a WS (espeically a serial cheater) and it means nothing. You guys shouldn't even be discussing the A or the OM anymore.

I agree on the discussion thing. She just told me today that OM goes to Florida for two months in the winter. Perhaps she thought that would buy us time to sell house. I was upset that she felt compelled to think about it, and to mention it to me. I asked her to never speak of A or OM again. I asked her to read the "forgive and forget" Q&A. She said she did about an hour later. I asked her to read them again.

I let her know that I don't think we are working hard enough to move ensure that this will not happen again.

It is time to get much more serious about the work on the table. I am afraid she is trying to glaze over the pain she caused to me, and the genuine danger she exposed our family to.

Does that mean you disagree on the date night thing? You haven't yet responded to those posts.

I agree that we should not be discussing OM and A. I agree that I should not have postponed date night. I agree we are not working hard enough to ensure that the A does not happen again.

I believe WW still feels that the A was caused as much by my lack of meeting her ENs as by her poor decisions and boundaries. I think she may feel that the improvement to meeting ENs is because of A, not because of our discussing the ENs themselves. I think she is still in withdrawal, and is still blaming me for the A.

What she thinks about these things is irrelevant, as long as you and she both work the programme properly - and in fact, you are disrespectfully judging her by making these suppositions.

The fact that you hold those beliefs in your head will affect the enthusiasm with which you (specifically YOU) tackle recovery. Unless your wife has specifically told you, within the last few days, that that affair was due to your lack of EN meeting, and that you are only improving your EN meeting because of the affair, and that the affair is your fault, you cannot know that she holds these thoughts. But if you believe that she holds them, you will be looking for some extraordinary display of her remorse - such as the self-loathing that you described earlier - which will not improve your marriage at all. She can loathe herself no end, but that won't make her fall in love with you, or you with her.

As to her supposed belief that you are only now trying t meet her ENs because of the affair: really, it does not matter why you do it - only that you do it, and for life. The whole point about Dr Harley's recovery programme is that most couples end up with an improved marriage because of the affair.

They learn how to effectively meet ENs because of the affair.

They learn how not to love bust because of the affair.

They learn that they need to spend 15 hours per week on UA because of the affair.

They learn how to apply effective boundaries against intimacy with the opposite sex because of the affair.

They learn how to be transparent and interdependent with each other because of the affair.

Learning how to improve your marriage, because of the affair, is not a bad thing - it is the way this happens for coupes who survive an affair. The only goal is to have a romantic, affair-proof marriage. With that, resentment about the past will fade, and the original motivation for improving the marriage will not matter.

As far as making LB deposits by babysitting, keep in mind that UA time is designed to fill the 4 most INTIMATE needs. While many women have a need for domestic support, filling that need does not make the same deposits as filling an intimate need. That is why Dr Harley does not say, clean the house for 15-20 hours a week. He instead advises couples to spend 15-20 hours a week in UA time filling intimate needs.

Has your WW listened to the radio clips in here?
What is Just Compensation?

We listened to the clips last night. WW had read the articles yesterday. We discussed how forgiveness is tied to just compensation. I also pointed out that she would need to forgive me for my past failures so that we would not revisit them. She had a tendency in the past of using those failures to lash out at me.

We had 5 hours of UA today, our first real date in a long time. It was awesome. Fancy clothes, fancy restaurant, and SF for appetizers 8). We have another scheduled for Tuesday.

So, here is another update. WW and I have spent every moment together since Friday, when she went to the gathering with the church ladies. She was exactly on schedule that evening, and has thanked me repeatedly for making it possible for her to go. We had a five hour date Saturday. We had a two hour date yesterday; her friend returned my favor from Friday. We have scheduled another date for tomorrow. The kids are enjoying time with grandma and grandpa!

I am not cherry picking through the program this time. We are both determined to make this work. We are ordering the online program next. I'm not sure if we should get the accountability program, we are both committed to do the work required.

VAR has been moved all over and has not picked up anything inappropriate. WW has not discussed OM or A with anyone. She has shared her communication with me. So far the only trouble I saw was that she was discussing facili-SIL's relationship problems. I suggested that she tell her she is not willing or able to concern herself with those issues while we focus on our own.

This all sounds great, Forged.

How many hours of UA time are you getting exactly though? (outside of house, w/o kids)

And are you sitting down each down week and scheduling it out?

We have been getting approx 12-15 hours outside of house, and 4-5 hours of SF. We are both thoroughly enjoying the effects of T injections.

We have scheduled UA away from home every Tuesday evening, and every Saturday. The SF has not been scheduled. Since it is one of WW's most important EN, we both agree once the testosterone novelty wears off we may need to schedule that as well.

It's been a while since my last post. Things were going well. We are trying to sell our house, but are stuck until it sells due to debt.

Up until a two weeks ago we were getting 15-20 hours of UA time, and everything seemed good. I have consistently monitored WW's phone calls, texts, and used a roaming VAR, switching it between the house and her car. I have done this every day. On Friday, I was happy to hear her in the car VAR recording listening to "How to Help Your Spouse Recover From Your Affair". As I listened I realized that the length of time was longer than the trip to the kids school. I stopped scanning and listened closer. Then I heard the sound of a diesel and OM's voice.

At that point I asked for her phone and checked her location history. I saw that she had met him at a location near his house that day and the Friday before. I confronted her in a way that would allow her to explain honestly, but she lied to me. I showed her the proof and she immediately broke down in apologetic tears. She made various claims about why she contacted him, and claimed they only talked.

I told her I don't believe her claims, and don't want to talk to her.

I feel like I need to plan b but won't leave the house or kids.

I'm very sorry Forged. Ugs.

Unfortunately, as we tried to explain to you, you will keep getting hit by the D-day train until you can get out of there.

The worse thing a BS can do (this is for others reading) is to think they are safe from their WS when the WS (a) express remorse, (b) denounce the OP or (c) act "different" than they did before exposure, etc.

Can you rent out your house so that you can move now??

I have tried to find somewhere to rent, but we have no savings, and large debt. I am praying that I can quickly sell some of my blacksmithing equipment to make renting something a possibility. I am not sure we could rent our house for enough to cover the mortgage, and that is half of my income.

I am not sure if this is worth it anymore. She started begging for me not to leave her tonight. I pointed out that she was the one who left me, for a rapist. I asked for space, but she persisted. Despite my better judgement, I asked her how many times she has seen him since NC was sent. She said three times. She claimed they did nothing but talk. When I told her I did not believe her, she finally claimed they kissed. I am sure more happened, but don't even want to know right now. I pointed out that she obviously did not want our M, since she continued to be with the rapist.

I really don't know how I can get past this. I am looking now for polygraph service in our area. That may help, but I doubt it. I have read the Poly thread, and will make a question list from those guidelines.

She is going to IC tomorrow. I strongly encouraged her to do so, since she is clearly not making good decisions.

I am numb. I have not shed a tear this time.

Yes I would definitely follow through with a poly and you need to re-expose this to everyone.

IC will not help.

I am planning the exposure now. OM threatened me with bodily harm if I contacted his family again, and they were absolutely no help last time. He went to jail for that very thing with his XW boyfriend, so I take his threat seriously. I will start with exposure to WW family.

IC might help with suicidal thoughts, which she has expressed. I do not expect it to help M at all.

I have asked WW for a list of contacts since NC. I will then ask at Polygraph if the list is complete and factual. I think I can ask 3 questions, so I will choose carefully.

I have exposed to her family and friends. We have spoken with our pastor. I called the only polygraph provider in town and the rate is $650. I will check to see if Buffalo is cheaper. I really think that is my only hope to start believing what she says.

I am looking for a rental that we can afford. I don't want to pull the kids from school midyear, so I will have to drive them daily. I will talk to FIL to see if he can help us find somewhere to stay. I wish we could have just dropped everything and ran.

She keeps apologizing and then minimizing her actions. I have withdrawn to protect myself.

So far I have not found a polygraph tester that does fidelity testing. Even the $650 test is only for criminal cases. Is this common?

What other options are there ? I need some truth serum ;!

Have you tried this? Polygraph Testing

I did read that thread and read online about types of polygraph tests. Perhaps I shouldn't have specified fidelity. I'm not sure what the difference is.

Last night WW tried to swear on the bible that she wouldn't lie to me again. I reminded her that she had already sworn that way three months ago.

I guess I should feel fortunate that she wants to save marriage, but I don't even know who she is anymore.

Maybe this is an option if not too far away.. $400 Lie Detector test . Otherwise try searching under "lie detector" Testing instead of polygraph testing.

Search "Buffalo Ny Lie detector" and a few lines down there's an add for $198- . Prob referral service but did you call them?

I just got call from 1st tester that will do fidelity testing. $600 for one question, "have you been intimate with anyone other than forgedfe since xxxx date?" In order to get meaningful results it would take one test for each known affair. It will cost $600 for 1st and $300 each for additional. This tester is 80 miles away.

This is way less important than getting out of town permanently.

I tried the referral service to no avail, they directed me to the fixed single question tester.

I am switching my focus exclusively to finding a way out of here. The testing can happen a little later. I will try Syracuse area.

WW acts like we can stay. She is still fogged.

Syracuse test $200 for 3 questions, $240 for 4. 2 hours away. I will get it scheduled. The results will determine my course of action. If there have there have been others, then she continues to lie.

The best last question:

Make a list of things you need to know. Tell her these are possible questions for her to answer during the test. Ask her to write down the answers for you.

Chances are, she will confess things before the polygraph is scheduled.

The last question:
"did you answer the questions truthfully?"

I think an NC letter is needed again , even though she is the one who broke the agreement.

Feedback an NC letter would be appreciated. How should the second NC letter be worded to a violent sex offending OM when WW was the one who broke the first agreement?

A NC letter should always be the standard one from Surviving an Affair. The OP's criminal record or violent proclivities have nothing to do with expressing the intention never to contact the OP, and the request for them never to contact the WS.

The fact that this is being re-sent after WS broke contact makes no difference, either.

Don't over-think this.

Thanks Sugar,
Stick to the plan. Clearly my thinking is stinking. WW said she would finish the letter tomorrow. I will review, and I will mail it immediately.

I told WW today that the polygraph is scheduled for Tuesday. I will give her the questions tomorrow. I gave her a "come clean" window today.

This morning I was browsing her phone and found a voice recording from the end of October, before d-day. WW inadvertently made a 3 hour voice recording. It was mostly her driving home from her parents listening to music, but in the middle, the music stopped so I listened closely. She stopped right before getting home and got out of her car to call OM. She said she was worried about being "bugged in her car" pretty ironic she was bugging herself. She proclaimed her love for OM. This was a few days before d-DAY and in deepest fog, but this still really hurts.

can you update more?

I will try to give timely updates.

In regard to our current sitch, things seemed to be headed in the right direction, but since we are still near OM house, WW drove by his office once, based on her GPS info. She did not go in, but met him outside, and made arrangements to meet elsewhere. Again, based on GPS, they met on 1/27 at a barn he owns nearby. The time stamp makes it clear they did not have much time to do anything, but it does not lessen the severity of the NC break. No progress will be made toward recovery until we are far from this place.

Based on VAR information, there is no burner phone used in our house or car, but that does not exclude the possibility of a burner phone stored and used elsewhere.

WW is not tech savy at all, which is why I found the accidental voice recording from before October D day in her android system files. She was genuinely shocked that it existed. The bitter irony of listening to her talk to OM about me bugging the car, (which was not bugged) is indicative of the paranoia she was feeling. She has not switched off her location service on her phone, and made no attempt to delete or modify the timeline to hide the meeting. She was not aware that information was stored on her device. I will be watching that info on a daily basis. I will pursue other forms of tracking as well.

Our entire household is currently afflicted with a stomach bug, strep, and the common cold. I have postponed the polygraph until next Tuesday. I have not given WW the questions yet. I will wait to do so until next Monday. The test administrator said that fever and illness can skew results.

Questions I am considering:

Have you been intimate with anyone other than forgedfe, OM1 and the rapist since date xxxx?

Are you concealing any information from forgedfe about any other relationship you had with anyone?

Did you have intercourse with the rapist? (not sure about this one. will it help healing? will it change my course of action?)

Have you answered all of these questions truthfully?

This is roughly what I want to ask. I will mull it over while we process the NC letter today.

These are good questions.

Yes, you do need to know the truth about the EA being a PA - if not, your WW will likely remain fogged out. It's best to wipe the SSL clean if possible and get her on the path to being transparent and honest. Getting the truth out is your best bet.

I know it was a PA, but she claimed only oral and petting so to speak.

I knew that she trickled some truth out but denied that there was intercourse, I just got you mixed up with another poster whose WW is only admitting to EA.

But...you can see how the advice still applies, right?

The fog still seems deep. She spent a lot of time on the phone today with her facilitating sister, despite my request for distance. She has four other siblings with whom she could speak. I had a hard time with this since after a couple minutes on the phone with me she complained about her sore throat.

She gave push back against the polygraph today. She said she isn't afraid to take it, but she just thinks it is degrading, over the top, unnecessary, too expensive, etc. She said " I don't know why you need the test, I'm telling you the truth now." As if her truthful voice is different from her lying voice. I reminded her that it sounds just like the hundred lies she told before. She tried some alternative facts claiming she didn't lie that much, so I listed a whole bunch for clarity.

She is vacillating between weepy remorse and brooding resentment. I told her that the withdrawal period starts all over again now. I too am withdrawn, like a turtle that has been poked too much.

Crystal clear advice, as always.

Sorry you are going through this. Ugs.

She's going to try a lot of different things to get you to back down. Don't fall for it.

Ignore the drama regarding the Poly. Stick to your guns and be dispassionate about it.

I'm going to IC tonight. I need some help getting the fog babble loop out of my head.

So are you still going through with the poly?

Yes we are still going for the polygraph on Tuesday. WW was still giving some push back about it last night, but agreed to go.

I am trying hard not to perseverate about the lies, but I am having difficulty. There are no EN being met currently. I have lost every trace of romantic love and respect for WW. She claims she sees clearly now and has a "new outlook". I pointed out that I also have a new outlook of gloom and pessimism.

I just spoke with WW and asked her to take the test tomorrow. I want to save the "sanctity" of Valentine's day. She said she would, begrudgingly. She swears she is telling the truth, and why would we need it. When I gently remind her, she says I am pouring salt on wounds. I said I am simply asking her to take the test, and not forcing her to do anything, but she still acts like it is me forcing my will on her.

I billed it as an opportunity to provide a platform on which to rebuild trust. She sees it as an ultimatum and form of humiliation.

It's good you are sticking to your guns. No more discussion about it from here out though. Once the test is over it's time to move on to the next steps of recovery.

She is now calling on her family to help her refuse to take the test. We just got off the phone with her father who made her promise not to take the test.

Forged, there is only one reason she is so adamant about not taking the test.

This is not unusual. Many WS's initially (although reluctantly) agree, and the closer it gets find more and more reasons to why it is distasteful to take the polygraph. Almost always, when pushed, they make additional confessions at the last minute.

Just be prepared for this.

She was hoping you'd relent, and you didn't so now she using her father to try and bully you. That's weak.

Don't give in. Insist on her taking the test. It's an extraordinary precaution that safeguards you. You have a right to feel safe in your marriage, and she has a responsibility as a spouse to ensure you are safe.

If she still refuses, I would write to Dr. Harley and ask him to address this on his radio show.

I would welcome new revelations because that would be a step towards openness. Adamantly swearing that she is telling the truth is just more of the same.

I am hurt and disappointed, and I am having a hard time seeing through the red flags.

She will refuse. She has her father, sisters and IC saying that it is a bad idea.

Can you provide details again on how to write Dr Harley? I can't think clearly right now.

Why is it a bad idea to do whatever it takes to make you feel safe? Why is it a bad idea to pay you just compensation?

You CAN think clearly. You know this is a bad idea *if she fails* There is no other reason it is a bad idea.

I think it is just and reasonable to take the test. Unfortunately she has made it clear that she doesn't plan on following through with just compensation. I am mailing NC today. She hand wrote it to script, but questions the need for it.

Her IC doesn't know what she's talking about. That's why it's important to buttress your argument with the testimony of Dr. Harley who has saved thousands of marriages, something I'm sure her IC and family haven't done. Read below the instructions for getting on the program. Let Joyce know this is urgent and ask graciously for a timely response:

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

I found the radio address. I will email dr. Harley

Since she is refusing to take the polygraph, you must let her know that you believe the reason she won't is because she is hiding something. Rather than making this a deal breaker right away, I'd wait to hear back from Dr. Harley should you decide to write to him about your wife's refusal to take the Poly. After you hear his reply, I would share it with her and move forward based on what Dr. Harley advises.

Her stonewalling on this issue is pushing you up to the line.

How old are your kids? Are they out of the home or still living there? I ask because the POSOM is a danger to them. I would contact an attorney and start planning on making sure they are safe and with 100% of the time in case you two split up. This is simply taking precautions for the safety of your kids.

Does your WW know that if she does reveal the full truth to you that reconciliation is still possible? That you will not "punish" her but that this is what you need in order to move forward?

I would keep repeating that you want to give her to feel safe to reveal the 100% truth to you and that you would like to recover the marriage but that your marriage isn't going to make it if she keeps lying. Tell her that refusal to take the poly when she had already agreed tells you that she is hiding something.

I would keep the appointment and tell her that you expect her to go. Don't cancel it.

They are quite young, 6 I think and the OM has a criminal record including sexual charges against a minor and Forge's WW has already left the DD alone with the OM.

Forged, I hope you are going to fill Dr Harley in on these details about the OM and the fact that your WW is a multiple offender.

I agree about seeing a lawyer to protect your kids. Your WW is fogged out and basically in an active affair with someone that is dangerous. Your children's safetly has to come first.

wait om is a pedo and she's still seeing him?
dude you need to put your foot down on this like now.

you need to protect your kids man

I will be speaking with a lawyer today. I tried to cling to the belief that you "cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war", but my children come first.

OM was convicted through plea deal to multiple counts of unlawful dealing with a minor, and 3rd degree sexual assault. Basically statutory rape. Also convicted of solicitation for assault, 1st degree assault, and other charges related to hiring thugs to have his EXW boyfriend assaulted.

WW allowed DS6 to ride in a combine with OM before D-day1. after that time, they have not come in contact with OM. They are alerted to the danger of OM, and have let me know the one time they saw him from a distance while riding in the car with me.

WW has consistently allowed technical accountability, and I am also tracking with a couple of methods and devices. I do not believe she is currently in communication, but that could change at a moment's notice. I do believe she is still hiding information since she refuses the poly test.

She is wasting away before my eyes, from withdrawal and guilt. I am encouraging her to continue speaking with our pastor, to help her through these dark times. I don't fully believe that antidepressants are a good idea, since they can dull the guilt that she needs to feel.

I have drafted a letter to Dr Harley that I will send today. I spelled out the entire situation, and requested expeditious attention due to the danger to the children.

Make sure to mention your WW's threats of suicide to the lawyer as well. I would be really careful about leaving your kids alone with her right now.

This isn't very nice Forged. Although I understand wanting a WS to feel guilt, if she is depressed and suicidal she needs help for that. Ultimately your goal is to create a great affair proofed marriage away from dirtbag. It will be MORE difficult to do that if she is depressed and mentally incapable of creating a marriage like this. She will be more susceptible to the high of the affair too.

I did not mean for it to sound that way. I have read elsewhere that WW who go on antidepressants reconnect with OM because the sense of guilt is deadened. I do not wish pain upon WW or anyone.

She never outright said "I want to die" or "I want to commit suicide", but she said she would like to just disappear, and other things that vaguely sounded like they had suicidal indications.

I received a voicemail from Joyce Harley, asking me to be a radio caller, and offering to hear WW side as well. WW said she would be willing to email her side of the sitch prior to my call. I am hopeful that she will give proper credence to the advice we receive. We discussed how much we liked the radio clips we have listened to, as well as the video HNHN series.

You had better outright ask your wife if she is contemplating killing herself if you have any suspicion in that direction. Contrary to popular opinion, this does NOT increase the chance of suicide or put this idea in her head in the first place.

Show your care for her and tell her that she can talk to you about anything and that you will get through it together.

Haven't seen that - typically antidepressants help a person behave more rationally and logically, and less overwhelmed by emotions. It gives them the ability to see the way out of the mess they are in.

I actually suggested the anti depressants to her, and she said she did not want to go on them. Her first reason was that she didn't want any "labels" attached to her, and the second was that she wanted to feel the pain that she brought on herself. I will discuss it with her tonight.

I am doing everything I can to show her I still care. I am having a hard time showing her affection right now, but I am working through it. I gave her a back massage last night because she was having issues with her shoulder and neck, and she basically melted into me and broke down in tears, apologizing.

Did you see this?

Let me say that you need to take the suicide threat seriously regardless.

But on the other hand, please keep in mind that this kind of thing isn't THAT unusual for a WS who has been caught. My exWH sobbed while clutching me and told me he wanted to die after 2011 dday. He also refused to take the poly after agreeing to it (he didn't think I would follow through).

These are not tears of "guilt". These are tears because she got caught and she uses them to manipulate you. Ok? She is an active wayward.

I'm happy that you wrote to Dr Harley and am looking forward to hearing his response. I am certain that he will give you great advice in terms of EPs, meeting ENs and avoiding LBers and how to recover, starting with moving away.

Let me say this to you, though: Your WW's refusal to take the poly is a REAL problem. That is an indication that she will cling to her SSL. I would expect wayward behavior from her into the future (SSL, IB, lack of EPs, lack of POJA). The fact that she has IC and enabling support system isn't going to help matters. That is what I faced with my exWH after we decided to recover in 2007 and it was an uphill battle for 4 years until there was another dday.

I told you earlier I the thread (back in October?) that you need to be prepared for backsliding and how you are going to handle it and I don't think you took me seriously, because of the remorse that your WW was displaying.

I have been saying that repeatedly. Enough that she said I am fixated on it. I said, "I am fixated on saving our marriage, but I need a kernel of truth on which to start rebuilding trust"

She doesn't seem to be shifting her decision yet.

We are taking the kids to my parents for the day so we can talk. I will let her read my letter to Dr. Harley so she can get started writing her side of the sitch.

I also asked her to write down a list of her objections to the polygraph. I am curious what she comes up with.

I would not do this. It gives the impression that you are willing to negotiate this and that you will drop it if her reasons are good enough.

You need to stay strong about the poly and just keep reiterating that you need her to take it to make you feel safe.

I don't know why you would ask her to write you a list of fogbabble. It doesn't really matter what reasons she GIVES for not wanting to take it, because we all know the real reason she doesn't want to take it, because she is still lying to you.

I let her know I wanted it specifically for her email that Joyce asked her to send prior to my call-in, to let Dr. Harley know what she is facing. I am curious what she comes up with, but that is not why I asked. I wanted to be sure she is really thinking about the test.

I let her know that I will not drop it.

I asked her to call her doctor for AD meds. She said she didn't want drugs. I asked her about her suicidal statements. She said she would never do that to our children. I gave her examples of how her depression is affecting the kids. She considered for a while and said she would call. I will force the issue to get the call done Monday.

I feel like my persistence is becoming an LB for her. I can't engage in small talk because it feels fake.

She keeps saying "you will learn to trust me in time" I told her that I don't think we have time, that I feel like our marriage is in a death spiral.

She is still minimizing the significant harm her backsliding has caused. It is like a broken record around here, over and over:
Me:"Please make the right decision and take the test. Start to make me feel safer, give me something to start building on"
Her:"Why do you need the test? I'm doing a lot to regain your trust over time "
Me:"Like breaking our EPs?"
And on an on.
I told her that I am gravely concerned about what OM might do. She defended him and said " He would never do anything to harm us" SAY WHAT?

ask her why is she defending him

I did. She claimed she was not defending him, even though she had the same look on her face as when I first presented her with the evidence of OM'so crimes. I told her that I think she is still in love with him.

We sat and talked for a while tonight. WW drafted an email to Dr. Harley. I didn't read it yet.

She did promise to call her doc Monday for AD meds.

She's in the fog, Forged. You should basically look at this as an active affair until you can get away from the OM.

Yes, I agree she is still foggy. We talked more tonight. I explained that the results of a polygraph would not be the deciding factor of our fate. I said that it would provide a starting point for our work. I gave the example of how I approach any project. "I have been shocked, so I now test circuits with a meter. I work with different types of batteries, and wouldn't charge one before testing it. I have been burned by you, so I don't feel safe opening my heart to you without proof that I have all of the facts."

This seemed to have an affect on her. Also, asking her to write reasons for refusal to Dr Harley has been hard for her, she said she hasn't really come up with any. She said she would take the test if it would make me want to save our M. Let's see if I can actually get it done.

I will be on the air on Thursday.

WW is still non-committal on polygraph, and asks why I am fixated on it. I told her that I am fixated on saving M and protecting myself.

This all just seems so futile. She was so apologetic and weepy last night. I fell for it last time, despite the warnings.

She is addicted to this other man and refuses to come clean thru a polygraph because she has a lot to hide. What is unusual is the remorse she is showing. WW's usually check out, are remorseless, and are in deep fog and withdrawal. Yours at least offers some hope in this regard.

But this POSOM is not only a grave threat to your marriage that must be removed, he is a physical threat to you and your children. Your mission is to kill the affair and protect your family from this predator.

Great job getting on the show! Be sure to ask Dr. Harley for concrete steps that need to be taken. Also let him know about the criminal history of this man and the threat he made to you. Finally, ask him what the next logical step is should your wife refuse to take the Poly.Good luck!

I would expect your WW's emotions to be all over the place. Weepy and apologetic one minute, angry the next, happy, depressed...it is not unusual at all for waywards to vacillate between emotions. Being wayward, ie addicted, is an emotional rollercoaster afterall. Watch "Intervention" once and see how those addicts act. Same thing here...

Just stick to the plan. Do NOT fold on the poly.

I won't fold on the poly, but I am starting to withdraw farther from WW. I am so angry right now I could scream. Thankfully WW and kids are at dance.

WW is completely unable to realize that it is impossible for me to trust her now, without something concrete to build on. I actually think it would be easier if she took and failed the test than this vacillating nonsense.

It will be a dark day tomorrow. I had to get WW a card so that the kids don't see how hopeless I am right now. I found the perfect one at least: "My heart is black... but it is all yours" I signed it "Please change it back. Love Forged"

I hope you're joking about the card.

Why do you say that?

It's negative and will be an LB not a deposit.

Maybe you are right. I am not particularly focused on deposits today, my mood is dark. I guess I should just not give a card.

I am glad my mind was changed on the card choice. WW spent a lot of time trying to make Valentine's day meaningful. She made a nice dinner with strawberry shortcake for dessert, my favorite cookies, a large stack of cutout hearts with loving statements written on them. She was remorseful and loving. She has been acting with contrition and has avoided any resentful or entitled attitude. I know this is all common, and I am not reading too much into it.

I avoided mentioning the poly yesterday. I did reiterate my need to feel safe before I take down any of the walls that I have erected. She could see I was having a tough time yesterday, and she tried to make me feel better. I think she appreciated the fact that I did not perseverate on the poly for a short time. I have not been able to meet her EN for intimate affection or SF. I have just begun returning her ILY recently. My anger is great, and her refusal to take poly has made my defenses go into overdrive. I have avoided all LB, and try to meet her other EN.

Her parents talked to her in length the day before yesterday. WW gave me a rundown of the conversation. They scolded her like youngster for her poor choices and misdeeds. They also continued to urge her not to take the poly. Her father is acting like he wants us to save our marriage, but also like she should be protecting herself in case of a litigious divorce. He insinuated that I was collecting evidence for such a case. She said that she told him no evidence was needed since she already confessed to having a PA, and that she would not deny it if we ended up in court.

I will press for the poly briefly today, and will take to heart all of the information I get from Dr. Harley on Thursday.

She has not responded to my poly request today. She said she is going to a prayer group tonight at church. I warned her that she would likely be praying for us, since I put in a prayer request last Sunday. That did not seem to deter her. She has to take DD since I will be at scouts with DS, so I am sure she will be going where she claims.

I am eager to see what she came up with for Dr Harley.

I am feeling dejected by her inability to agree with the poly. She is showing remorse and kindness, but it just feels like an in between day for the A.

I asked WW if she reconsidered my request for the test. She said that she had spoken with our pastor and he discouraged her from taking the test. I pointed out that she promised to do whatever it took to regain my trust, yet she refuses to do the one thing that I asked. She said "I guess we are at a stopping point then"

I think I need ask her to sleep in the spare room.

No, don't ask her to sleep in the spare room. Since you will be talking to Dr. Harley tomorrow, wait and hear what he has to say about her refusal to take the poly.

WW finished her email to Dr. Harley. She glossed over much of the story. She extolled her willingness to save our M. She questioned the need for the poly because I already know she lied and had an affair. She also said she had concerns about the poly because it can give false results, and she doesn't see what I could gain from it. She didn't talk about her backsliding or breaking EPs. She minimized the A in length and intensity.

Big day tomorrow. I am hoping for some meaningful advice.

The most important fact in all of this is that she resumed contact with this felon. Very recently she violated the EP's that are in place.

The poly is important because if she is forced to take it, she may just come clean with things that you weren't aware of before she takes it. You need to know the facts because her affair is still ongoing. I hope that she isn't reading this thread.

Be sure to mention to Dr. Harley that this guy is a sex offender and that she met with him last week.

Dr Harley has all of the facts about our sitch. I let him know that WW's last documented contact with OM was 1/27. Her most recent EP break was 1 week ago, when she discussed our M with her facilitating sister, despite agreeing not to do so. Facili-SIL also spread word about the poly to FIL and MIL, causing a big commotion.

I have a bad feeling about the outcome of forcing the poly. Even if Dr Harley has an award winning explanation of the reasons to take it, I feel she will refuse.

I am fairly certain WW has not read the thread. I am sure she would have protested the amount and type of information I have shared here if she read it.

re: "I have a bad feeling about the outcome of forcing the poly. Even if Dr Harley has an award winning explanation of the reasons to take it, I feel she will refuse."

So then be sure to ask Dr. Harley what you should do if she won't take the poly.

Write down the questions you have for him, and check them off as they are answered on the show.

Did you tell him the facts about the first affair, when it was and how long it lasted, etc?

Yes, I started way back, and included the full story.

WW spoke with Joyce today, and had new insight into the reasons for the test, and has agreed to take it. I assured her that the results of the test were not going to change my willingness to work with her to rebuild our M. I am preparing for the call now.

Awesome news!

In case you're nervous, just know the Harleys will make it very comfortable and easy for you - you can let them do most of the talking! I have major stage fright, have been on the show (more than once) and they've always been very helpful.

You're doing great. Keep it up!

Great show! That would be a good one to link on the EP, serial cheater, and polygraph threads (hint hint, BrainHurts!).

What did you think?

I was very worried because we were disconnected 5 times before air time. Thankfully we were only disconnected twice during the show. I listened to it again on my way home. I think the whole experience was very helpful to me and WW.

I think the preliminary call between Joyce and WW had a profound effect on her. We talked right after, and WW was very apologetic and ready to take the test. She had no panic, no sudden revelations, just a new understanding of why I needed the test.

I will schedule the test early next week. I am pretty sure she will take it this time.

That's good news. Let us know when you have it scheduled and what happens on the test.

The test is at 7pm tonight. Mini vacation Monday and Tuesday.

Wonderful! So glad you are taking a minimoon. Just the two of you, right?

The mini moon is next weekend. We are going to the "best new restaurant in the USA" and a B&B... no kids

The first mini vacation is with the kids because they have been very distressed by our strife. Indoor water park/ amoeba farm

Your children will be delighted to see you and your wife go off together alone and bond next weekend. I assure you this is in their best interest.

I recommend a cruise, but any get away that requires little work and a lot of UA time will help recovery (so long as POSOM is out of the picture and contact is ended for life).

Test time.

Let us know how it goes.

No deception indicated with 99% certainty on the 3 questions.
Intercourse with om2... no
Any other affairs beside OM1 om2... no
Hiding any information about intimate relation with anyone else... no

She apologized the whole way there for not just taking the test right away. We had 2 hours drive each way to talk.

I am glad she took the test. I was at the brink of D. Now the hard work begins again

Great news!

Here's your show. How are things going?
Radio show of Forgedfe's show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Things are progressing well. Thanks for posting the show!

We had a nice short family vacation last weekend. This afternoon WW and I are dropping off the kids at her sisters house, then we are going to a super nice restaurant and staying in a hotel.

Great to hear, Forged. Wishing you and your wife a full and blissful recovery.

Will she be willing to do all the EP's needed for a serial cheater that Dr. Harley talked about on the show? Have you two discussed moving out of town?

We are actively downsizing and looking for a place to move. WW has made significant steps toward just compensation. I have not seen a trace of resentment, justification or entitlement since the radio show. I think it took that to make her realize how close she was to losing everything.

She has stopped communication with facili-SIL. She has continued to be open with her communicationso with anyone. She has made great strides to be more open with her feelings. She has made sure to be in touch with me throughout each day.

There is a long way to go, but we are going the right direction.

My serial cheater was quick to dump the OW and made all the right noises. Then at about the six month mark I went away for the weekend. He was back with the OW in an instant, lied about it and that was the end for me.

I could not see myself spending the rest of my life as a prison warder.

please just don't let your gaurd down okay.
she can still take this even further underground.

Great update. Keep it up.

Along the lines of what living said, when you said in the radio call that your W has a history of flirting and OS friendships that she "doesn't see a problem with", I kind of cringed as that was exactly like my serial cheating ex. It turned out that he could really not be around women at all without there being a big risk for an affair, even in the workplace.

What is the plan with regard to your W working after you move?

Please understand that we aren't trying to pile on you, but we just want to set you guys up for the best chance at success possible, which will involve extra extra EPs.

WW is applying for a part time substitute teaching position at our church, with no male employees other than our pastor. She is also going to be working from home selling equipment on eBay to help us downsize. I will be handling the shipping portion of those transactions. We have enough stuff to sell right now that she won't need to worry about anything else for a while. We discussed future employment options, and we are in full agreement that she will not be able to work with men. She has some investments that will start paying out within 2 years, so that will be a huge help.

We had a great weekend. SF for the first time since DDay3. Seemed a little weird at first for me, but overall helped the feeling of closeness.

She is still seeing her IC. I am not sure if it is helping anything. If she starts spouting fog again I will ask her to reconsider.

I am continuing to monitor travels and communications. I have made that a permanent requirement. I will continue to randomly monitor locations with VAR as well.

Forged,
As I said this weekend, congratulations. There are many here who wish their wayward spouses would leave the fog and return to the marriage as yours has. So continue to take the right steps towards recovery fully implementing the program with consistent UA time and all of the accountability in place.

Since your wife has had multiple affairs, you will always need to be on this. Remember that serial cheaters are not so much addicted to one person as they are addicted to the high of an affair. You will always have to be vigilant.

It is well past time for an update. Things have not improved here at all. I am sure I will get blasted for all of the woulda shoulda couldas.. but this is where we are.

WW refused to sell the house and move. We are still here. I have no evidence of continued affair, but it doesn't even matter at this point. I am sure if that A is over, she is looking forward to another.

Since last update, WW has drifted farther away, and is saying she doesn't know what she wants anymore. I have not moved toward D because I do not want to miss a minute of my sweet children's lives. There are no EN being met here. We are basically separated in the same house. WW sleeps on the far edge of the bed, often on top of the sheet, and if I touch her, she immediately says she is exhausted.

I know what I need to do , but my heart breaks at the thought of missing time with the twins.

There are no EPs in effect anymore. Surveillance (that had been fruitless) was discovered and increased her withdrawal.

I'm not sure even why I am posting here, except that I don't have anyone to confide in. WW agreed to go to a Weekend to Remember, but that seems pretty pointless.

Forged, sorry to hear this update.

It sounds very much like the affair is still on - which wouldn't be surprising given the proximity of the OM.

What are you doing to snoop?

It DOES matter, very much so. This man has a history of sexual abuse and if I remember correctly, your WW has had your kids around him before.

I had a VAR deployed, but it was discovered. She no longer allows me to look at her phone. I monitor the call and text log, for what its worth. My kids are aware of the situation with OM, and tell me every time they go anywhere near his property. They have not seen him or made any sort of contact with him. I am looking into other methods for gathering proof. I am also going to consult with an attorney.

I need to determine how much of my spirit I am willing to lose to this endeavor. Every day it chips away more. Despite my desire to keep our family together, there is no love here anymore.

If this OM has a history of sexual abuse, why don't you have an order of protection prohibiting him from being with 1000 feet of the kids Forged? Seems like that would be a slam dunk.

Unfortunately, since OM was convicted of a lesser offense, unlawful dealing with a minor, he was not forced to register. Do to that, and the time passed since conviction, I don't believe I have a case for the order of protection. My evidence of OM threats against me is not admissible.

Did you ever Plan A your wife? It seems like you have completely given up on any kind of Plan A. I am guessing post affair, most WW's would go into a withdrawn stage if their spouse was acting in this manner. Whether it seems fair or not, WW's need to be drawn back into the marriage, and that does not seem to be happening here at all.

Your choices, as you probably know are:

1) Plan A, draw her back into the marriage by being a great husband to her, while also using surveillance to make sure the affair is over.
2) Do nothing, as you are, and the result will be, as it is, a lifetime of unhappiness until one of you has an affair or divorces.
3) Divorce.

I can assure you that #2 is in no way BETTER for your kids than option #3.

You need to get spyware on all her devices. Having her "let you look at her phone" is pointless since she can delete anything she wants. What can you do to get spyware on her devices?

I extensively did plan A. I made significant and lasting changes in my behavior and attitude. D Day was over a year ago. During the first few months, things really changed between us. Then she met with OM again, and things went downhill. After that she was distant. Then she discovered VAR and completely withdrew.

Right now, I am not sure how to "draw her back into the marriage" since she will not allow me to meet her EN, nor will she even complete the EN questionnaire.

I am not sure how to get spyware on her phone. She does not properly manage her storage, and does not even have room to do updates. She discovered the spyware last time do to a glitch with Webwatcher, and I am sure she is diligently scrutinizing her device for any signs of ware. Not to mention that I would be hard pressed to pry it out of her hands.

Vehicle devices are only good to show me where she parks her car. I am guessing she regularly checks her vehicle now as well thanks to VAR discovery.

Forged, it is very obvious to me that the affair never really ended. A wayward who behaves this way, so close to D-day, when you live very close to the OP, is still in contact. You should just assume that's the case until you can prove otherwise.

While that is good, it only takes one minute for something very bad to happen. You have a wayward spouse and a OM with a history of sex crimes and violence - I would be taking this very seriously, if I were in your position.

I think your marriage takes a back seat now to making sure your girls are safe.

All of this is very relevant in a divorce case where custody, moving etc are issues that the family law judge may end up deciding for your situation.

I would do everything in your power to get proof of the affair continuing, file for divorce/separation and get your girls as far away from the OM as you can - you need to move ANYWAY if you want to have any hope for your M. It is possible your WW will pick up and follow you guys.

I agree with SusieQ.

Since WW was coming around until she met with OM again, and has since completely withdrawn regardless of your actions and is acting wayward once again, I think it is prudent to assume the affair is still ON. Honestly, you would have no way of knowing since you have no spyware in place.

So what do you want to do here?

He has also threatened you with violence.

You need to do whatever you can to get your kids away from this guy.

The burden of proof in civil matters is often different than it would be for a criminal charge. Have you discussed this with a lawyer if a judge would even consider the other man's record? He does have a conviction for misconduct with a minor even if he is not a registered sex offender.

I have an appointment scheduled with a lawyer. I have the criminal history documents ready, as well as a few screenshots of texts. I saved the text with his threat to me, but now it is gone. I don't know if WW deleted it. I will try some forensic searching for it.

I'm trying to get a handle on my next steps. My kids safety is my first priority. I'm pretty much done hoping to save the marriage. She has bled out all of my love for her. Even if she gets herself together I think it may be too late.

I appreciate the help from this community, and welcome all advice moving forward.

Still I wait. Out of 9 lawyers only 1 called me back. My appointment is Friday morning.

I asked WW why she agreed to go to Weekend to Remember. Her answer chilled me. She said she has lost her love for me. She said she has been trying to make it work. I said that she had not done anything for our M since January. She agreed and said that she didn't think she would ever love me again.

My immediate concern is for the safety of my kids. I will have to wait until Friday to see if there is any legal options to keep OM out of their lives.

Since WW discovered the VAR and ware, I am not sure how to proceed with verification of A. She claims she is still NC, but I seriously doubt it.

I am anxious to meet with the lawyer. My last post said Friday, but I meant next Friday. I don't have a lot of hope for legal avenues to keep OM away.

The attorney said it would be likely that the court would be willing to issue a TRO against OM once proceedings started. I am scrambling to liquidate to pay the 5K retainer.

Kids said that they have not seen OM at all in a long time, but it could happen any time.

I prayed that it wouldn't come to this, but here we are.

Please help me decide if it is worth hiring a PI to get facts on continuing A. I'm not sure if the info would help me during D, unless I was looking for sole custody. I would like to end the A wether D or not, and my evidence collection is hindered now due to my sloppy work and faulty ware.

The wisdom of the advice offered here often falls on deaf ears. I am guilty of ignoring some advice, partially following some directions, and generally messing up plans.

WW swore she was done with OM, and there was no indication that she made contact with him. Over time she started breaking EP. She began hiding her phone, and clearly hiding a SSL. I had finally saved up enough money for attorney when she was diagnosed with a brain tumor. I put everything on hold to see her through the surgery. Her recovery has been slow and her medicine makes her very irritable and tired, so she had no time for me.

I was just informed today by a friend that she has proof that WW and her husband are having an affair. I have screenshots of IM conversations. WW has deleted them from her account, but these were clearly from her. OM is separated from W.

I am done. I should have followed suggestions and had D last year. I'm planning on exposure and then D. Does it make sense to expose even if there is nothing left to save?

Yes you should expose even if you are divorcing.

Yes, expose this. Have you exposed this to your children yet?

In case you do not re-read this thread - please remember all that we have explained to you about serial cheaters, should you decide to stay with her (I know that you said you are divorcing but you have said that before...to be honest, I'm not sure that I believe you).

Serial cheaters WILL express remorse and promise to do everything under the sun to keep the marriage, including implementing all kinds of EPs. And then they will backslide over time.

So when your WW throws crumbs at you to try to keep you in the marriage again (and that will probably happen) ignore her words, tears, remorse and claims about how she was groomed by the OM. That is all meaningless and a distraction. This is the MO of a wayward.

She cannot have a phone, she probably cannot even leave the house unless she is with you and she cannot have access to a computer. There can be zero opportunity for an affair. Otherwise, you should just expect more of the same.