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Messy #2898732 05/11/17 06:47 PM
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WW has reopened contact, should I say anything at this point?

She's trying to convince me that I did something wrong and damaged them.

Last edited by Messy; 05/11/17 06:54 PM.
Messy #2898733 05/11/17 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Messy
Thanks again, laying down helped a little. I'm not in as much shock now.

abrrba - you are spot on I couldnt trust my instincts anymore. My instinct was FEAR, fear of losing her and my family. So I was compromising what I knew was right out to avoid the fear. It's how I ended up in a 2nd d-day.

I would imagine that a good many who view marriage and family as sacred could be crippled by the same fear. Due to my religious beliefs and a deep, faithful devotion and love for my spouse and family, the thought of losing them was my worst fear imaginable.

Read the stories of those offering you guidance, they all went through this. Whether they saved and recovered their marriages or ended up in Plan D, they all came out the other side and recovered their lives.

Be strong, and be well. It won't be easy, but you will get through this. All of us were helped by other kind souls on this forum, and we are here to help you through these dark days. God bless.


BH (me) 50, WxW 47
Married 1994
D-day, plan A, & exposure Jan 2017
Divorced Nov 2017
Messy #2898734 05/11/17 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Messy
WW has reopened contact, should I say anything at this point?

She's trying to convince me that I did something wrong and damaged them.

You should agree that her affair has greatly harmed the children, your marriage and their family. Tell her you won't lie to the kids about her wrongdoing.

Have you told your 2 middle children?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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yes, I told all 3 at the same time. very concise and direct.

Messy #2898736 05/11/17 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Messy
WW has reopened contact, should I say anything at this point?

Get the EPs in place asap. If you can't get that going, you really need to start thinking about Plan B. This has been going on for a very long time and I can tell it has had a very bad effect on you.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Messy #2898737 05/11/17 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Messy
yes, I told all 3 at the same time. very concise and direct.

Good job! I misread your post.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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You need to start working on moving to a new town.

Messy #2898757 05/12/17 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Messy
abrrba - you are spot on I couldnt trust my instincts anymore. My instinct was FEAR, fear of losing her and my family. So I was compromising what I knew was right out to avoid the fear. It's how I ended up in a 2nd d-day.

Are you DONE letting fear run your life here?

You came here months ago, with an opening statement about how your WW's A was over and you had done all the EP's except for moving and everything was great except your WW was...acting like a wayward confused Many people (including me) told you the A had not ended. You really battled about this until months later when you found out it had indeed not ended. And then you came back with a second polyanna report about how it had COMPLETELY ended this time and WW was so remorseful and blah blah blah. Now you just want to be a unified front with her and bring her here and have her help you expose to kids...

Your FEAR of upsetting her or doing what you needed to do to end this months ago, has allowed months more of cheating to go on right in your own home. Your fear has let her 'recover' with you while simultaneously bringing her nasty OM right into your own bed. Your fear has kept you from exposing to your own children.

You seem to just want to put this behind you asap and recover and live happily ever after without making any real changes. Sorry, that is called sweeping it under the rug and it is NOT going to work.

You need to STOP allowing fear to control you Messy. I personally feel a little bit duped by you. Here is why. People come here with their own 'plan' initially, when they don't know MB and haven't been educated and haven't listened to the radio show and haven't read the other billion forum stories just like theirs. But you were here for months. You did all these things, you know the MB program. You said all the right things on your thread and just *omitted* the details that you knew we would object to. To me, that is duping us, it is different than people who argue because they don't understand, to understand and just tell people what they want to hear. Did you not know going out of town for work, when you had just recently discovered your wife was in an affair, was a BAD idea? Honestly, that seems like logic to me. Even if it wasn't common sense, you don't have to be here long to know that it is the wrong thing to do. It has no place in a healthy marriage much less one in recovery from a very recent affair (where your wife is still acting wayward and you are being told she is still wayward!). I suspect you knew what we would say if you told us and therefore you omitted that little detail. You never mentioned that you didn't expose to your kids. Again, I suspect it is because you were afraid to and knew we would tell you that you had to do it. What other corners have you cut and what corners are you cutting NOW in this second round to say all the right things here on this forum and convince us that you are serious???

Hey, its your marriage and your divorce, and that is where it is going to lead if you continue to let fear run the show. It is no skin off our backs if you cut corners and pad the truth and end up in divorce. But it is a waste of all of our time if you are not serious.

Please assure this forum that you are done being afraid, and that you are done just saying the right things and you are going to start taking this seriously. I am not at all convinced.

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unwritten - Yes. I am done acting out of fear. You are right, I will no longer omit details. Fear again.

WW came home today and berated me for telling the kids for multiple reasons. 1. I should have talked to her first, 2. She doesn't think they need to know, and 3. I didn't tell them about my porn or abuse issues. (I said things were not happy between mommy and daddy).

She's still very angry, but I was able to explain my thought process and why I did it. She still doesn't agree with it, but its water under the bridge.

Here's where we stand at this time. After WW finished she basically accused me that my actions told her I was done, and just wanted to set myself up to look good in the divorce. I told her that was not my motives, I kinda think she believes me some, but still is mostly angry.

I told WW that in order for us to move forward we need to implement the EP's. She said she'll think about it, but first told me she doesn't want to give me the power. I told her it's not about power, its about protection, and I need to protect myself from this pain ever happening again, and she too needs to protect herself from the pain she felt herself. She's still in the camp of 'i'll think about it' and says she needs to choose to do it so she doesn't resent me. I told her it is her choice.

Secondly, she requested that I tell the kids about my emotional abuse and porn addiction. I'm currently drafting something age appropriate to tell them. While I don't believe I can compare or equate the damage caused by my issues and her affair, I do think the kids deserve to know that's a major reason for her unhappiness. Thoughts?


Last edited by Messy; 05/12/17 04:55 PM.
Messy #2898769 05/12/17 05:05 PM
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When was the last time you looked at porn? What precautions have you put in place to avoid looking at porn?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Have you read this and listen to the radio clips?
Dr. Harley on the Scourge of Pornography


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



Messy #2898771 05/12/17 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Messy
Here's where we stand at this time. After WW finished she basically accused me that my actions told her I was done, and just wanted to set myself up to look good in the divorce. I told her that was not my motives, I kinda think she believes me some, but still is mostly angry.

Just let her know that you are "done" unless she agrees to extraordinary precautions to protect you from her destructive behavior. Let her know this will come to divorce unless she does. She doesn't need to "think about it" at all. She can accept or reject it and you can make your plans accordingly.

Quote
Secondly, she requested that I tell the kids about my emotional abuse and porn addiction. I'm currently drafting something age appropriate to tell them. While I don't believe I can compare or equate the damage caused by my issues and her affair, I do think the kids deserve to know that's a major reason for her unhappiness. Thoughts?

Decline the stupid request. Tell her no thank you. Why in God's name would you air unrelated past bad behavior to your children at such a critical time in your lives? This is nothing more than vindictive tit for tat from a butthurt wayward. Don't participate in her reckless vindictiveness.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you read this and listen to the radio clips?
Dr. Harley on the Scourge of Pornography

He is currently looking at PORN????


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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The point of exposure is not to air your dirty laundry and make the other spouse look bad, but to explain to the children life changing events in their lives. The affair directly affects their lives in a MAJOR way and they need to know the facts. That is why you expose.

Your past porn use is not an issue that is a direct threat to the them nor is it causing your divorce.

Your wife wants to air your dirty laundry to the children because she is reckless and vindictive. You are the grown up here so it falls to you ACT like a grown up and protect your children from her vindictiveness.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Messy #2898775 05/12/17 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Messy
Thought I'd provide an update and seek some adivice, still managing plan A as best I can. WW is somewhat responsive, but still not committed or ready to actively work on the marriage. She is content to stay where we currently are in this stage of limbo. She's not willing to commit to me or the marriage yet, so I'm still the only one actively working on improving things. SShe makes almost zero LB deposits for me. She hasn't had her 'away' time yet, and though we've talked about it, she still doesn't know that if she gets it, she'll be able to make a decision.

All indications are that the A is still over (VAR, electronic records). But there's always a chance they've been able to hide it...

I'm still struggling with DJ (unintentional) when we have conversations about where things are. The pain of living with the woman you love and living together as if nothing is wrong but knowing she doesn't love you and is trying to decide if she wants to end things is unbearable at times, and it comes out in the form of DJ to try and get her to move out of her indecision in order to gain closure. I'm really struggling with this area, I'm not sure how to manage that emotion all the time. It usually comes out as me either shutting down, or trying to get her to meet my key ENs (though shes unwilling to) which then turns into a DJ or AO because she just is stuck and I'm frustrated that I can't get her to take action. Any suggestions?

At this point its been 7 months of plan A, now I fully acknowledge I haven't been perfect these 7 months, mostly in the form of DJ as a result of the emotional pain of the A being toxic and seeping out. However, I've corrected many of primary issues she cited that lead to the vulnerability for the A. I'm 7+ months sober from porn, really involved with the kids and around the house. Bottom line is WW doesn't feel love towards me, but is mostly feeling resentment and anger, and isn't sure if she can let go of the past. During any discussion she response to my DJ's with long, venomous rewrites of the past, focusing on negatives.

At this point I feel like my options are as follows:
1) Continue plan A and STOP the DJ (something I need to figure out, because the pain keeps causing me to try and 'fix' things)

2) Plan B

3) Request WW decide if she can recommit to the M and start working on MB and meeting each others EN by XX date, and if she can't Plan B.

Thoughts?
I see here back in March you said you haven't looked at porn for 7 months. So her trying to bring it up now is exactly what MelodyLane said to you that she's trying to air your dirty laundry because of her affair.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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WW has used the porn and emotional abuse (identified 2 weeks ago) as the justification for her affair. I own what I did, and I've taken EPs to prevent it, porn free almost 10 months, the emotional abuse is stopped, and has stopped since first exposure, also now that I've identified the behaviors to end it, I know even more what to stop doing. She doesn't like that the kids know her mistakes, but not mine. I don't necessarily have a problem telling the kids, but it's not affecting them now, so I'm not sure what the benefit would be, other than as you said, it's her justification, so in her mind it does affect them...

I told her the EPs were non-negotiable, to which she responded "you don't get to say what's non-negotiable, you don't own me". I told her I don't, she gets to make her own choices, but that I need it done in order to move forward. I'm expecting WW to not make a decision...

After some more time to relax, and understanding my thought process, she did admit she's still angry, but understands why I told the kids. Still doesn't like it at all though. I told her I understand that she's upset that I didn't tell her first, and that in the future our parenting decisions will be joint (assuming she implements the EPs).

so now I wait for her answer, not sure how long...

Last edited by Messy; 05/12/17 07:56 PM.
Messy #2898783 05/12/17 08:46 PM
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You are saying EP's are non negotiable TO YOU. For you to stay in the marriage you require XYZ and that is not something you are willing to negotiate. You are just telling her what you will or will not accept as conditions to keep you in the marriage. She still has the choice to decline.

It is the same as her saying 'Messy, you viewing porn again is non negotiable.' You would not consider 'negotiating' when and how it is acceptable for you to view porn, would you? That isn't a negotiation, it is a condition that she will not tolerate in marriage. Just as a marriage ripe for more affairs is a condition you should not tolerate.

EP's are a win win for both people. You realize that the reason she is bucking them has nothing to do with 'control' and everything to do with the fact that even if she has actually ended the A, she is not willing to completely close that door yet. She wants the option of making some kind of contact.

Messy #2898788 05/12/17 09:22 PM
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Quote
told her the EPs were non-negotiable, to which she responded "you don't get to say what's non-negotiable, you don't own me". I told her I don't, she gets to make her own choices, but that I need it done in order to move forward. I'm expecting WW to not make a decision...

You get to say what you will live with and what you won't.

Quote
After some more time to relax, and understanding my thought process, she did admit she's still angry, but understands why I told the kids. Still doesn't like it at all though. I told her I understand that she's upset that I didn't tell her first, and that in the future our parenting decisions will be joint (assuming she implements the EPs).

You need to stop acting like you did something wrong. So what if she is upset?

Quote
so now I wait for her answer, not sure how long...

you have your answer. It is no. She is not waiting, she just doesn't care. She keeps you around to pay the bills while she shags other men. So I would start making preparations to separate and go into Plan B.

i am sorry to be harsh, but she is not going to commit to your marriage and it is unrealistic to imagine she will. She is just there for the income.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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ML - I understand.

Any guidance on Plan B with 4 kids when I work full time and she is a SAHM?

Nesting seems like the easiest, but I know that's not effective. I have some help from family, but it would be really tough to manage the kids and work... It just seems overwhelming, I guess I could pay for childcare, but I don't know how I'd afford it...

Messy #2898796 05/13/17 06:30 AM
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Don't tell her, but see an attorney on Monday. Keep VAT on You at all times. Do not leave the house unless ordered by the court. The house needs to be sold anyway. Get away from the memories.

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