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This is HersheyKiss's husband and I'm going to chime in on this..

Let me start off by saying it is irresponsible for anyone to give permanent, life-altering advice to people who come here seeking help without first hearing both sides to a bilateral argument. No conflict is ever as simplistic as one person's version of the state of their affairs. For anyone to assume they are adequately informed on the complex edifice of someone's problems in life based on a few posts on the internet is gravely mistaking. I'm appalled by some of the things I've read in this thread. This is a forum for reconciliation-not a casual text message equating to something like, "hey girl... he do you dirty!" So, when people post things encouraging my wife to drop me and to go find someone else to marry, remember this: we have 4 beautiful children together who we love dearly and we have been going through hell to make it even this far. Your comments are NOT helping matters at all. I encourage you to save your negative ill-informed remarks and instead dig out the facts by asking lots of questions in order to gain deeper insights and provide different view points on solving problems. Do it not and this entire forum will turn into an echo chamber of frantic ne'er-do-wells sniveling about themselves claiming to have been so very right to say they've been so very wronged. We're all hurting...

I have been beating my brains for years in this relationship trying to work things out with HK but you will not hear about my trials and tribulations from her. I cannot stress enough saying this relationship has been insufferably difficult and relentlessly tiresome. We have gone through four or five counselors, I have relocated my residence six times during our relationship and I have gone through four different employers including creating/dismantling a business we owned back in Texas. I have quit using nicotine, quit a pornography addiction (which she still accuses me of), quit using caffeine products, changed my diet to carnivore, and completely eliminated alcohol from my life (alcohol was easy because I never really liked drinking anyway). This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to hoops I've jumped through attempting to appease my wife. I could write for hours about all the things I've done to help HK feel at ease. Like, calling my cell phone provider to prove to her that I wasn't hiding a secret second phone, or letting her investigate my clothes and my body to ensure I didn't smell like I had been with another female. It continues on and on...

I don't want to go through and pick apart everything HK has posted. I will just say that I believe most of our current points of contention are derived from my lack of desire to want to be on the phone with HK 24 hours a day. In case you didn't know, HK and I used to stay on the phone 24 hours a day, even during sleep. HK is a very insecure person and being on the phone constantly became a crutch for her to lean on. It allowed her to listen in on every interaction I was having. It allowed her to hear all the banter around me and it would give her better insight into what I was doing at all times such as, writing something down, typing on a computer, or going to the restroom. Being on the phone at all times was HK's golden ticket to feel secure.

Eventually, being on the phone started to become a problem. Some counselors we were seeing raised concerns for privacy. People were being listened to by my wife without foreknowledge nor consent. HK began to coach me during conversations I was having with my coworkers. She began telling me on the spot that she doesn't like what someone is saying or doesn't like how I'm responding to a comment. She began jumping into conversations between people around me and it became upsetting to me. HK's choice of words with me became hostile and fundamentally unpleasant. Dr. Harley said she couldn't force me to stay on the phone with her so she gave up trying to make me do it. Ever since then, things have been sliding backwards; becoming progressively worse between us.

I believe HK could say that I have done a pretty good job following POJA when it comes to needing to go places or trying to do things together. After we stopped being on the phone I found myself using my phone and computer at work to stay busy and that became the major point of contention. I would listen to videos and podcasts on my phone or use my computer to do school work or play games. This has become a massive problem for HK because she fears I will see content she doesn't approve of or find that playing games or doing school work is more desirable than spending time with her. She is probably right in her assessment because HK doesn't spend recreational time with me. Besides that, I don't believe we actually have many problems with POJA except for coming to an agreement on what to do when I'm at work. We can't seem to solve this problem.

Since this problem arose, HK hasn't followed POJA for anything. She has gone through her days doing as she pleases with no regard for my input on her decisions. I want to make this very clear: I have complained to HK about her IB but, like everything else I've complained about, it has fallen on deaf ears. One of my greatest problems with HK is that my complaints never seem to be taken seriously and I believe its because I've been expressing them without anger. I express my complaints but I don't feel the need to weep over them or retaliate in any way when my complaints go ignored and this is a stark contrast between my reactions and HK's reactions. These problems and our pitiful reactions have got us into some really deep muck that I don't see much hope of climbing back out of.

We are subscribed to Dr. Harley's $900 program. We got to lesson 3 but HK decided that she will not do lessons with me if I am not following POJA to her liking. My argument is our lack of undivided attention time is directly contributing to my neglect for POJA. The more UA time HK and I spend together the more I feel like getting closer and letting her in on my moment to moment life. If we are not in a good place HK becomes a very unpleasant person to have around and I'd rather not engage her. But, the more UA time we spend together the more I want to be involved with her. For example, we had a really good night of UA and family commitment and it made me feel like I wanted to get her on the phone with me again. I called her and slept with her on the phone with me that night. Well, eventually HK became unhappy with my work life so she decided to stop the MB program. We have since digressed into nothingness.

As of now, we had a bad miscommunication last night. She is not talking to me and I fear she is not going to allow me to see the kids anymore.

MW

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Originally Posted by MilkyWay
This is HersheyKiss's husband and I'm going to chime in on this..

I encourage you to save your negative ill-informed remarks and instead dig out the facts by asking lots of questions in order to gain deeper insights and provide different view points on solving problems.

The objective of the forum is not to field "different viewpoints" but to help posters understand Dr. Harley's viewpoints. Like you, we don't know how to save marriages. Dr. Harley DOES. So, we are here to discuss his concepts.

Quote
I believe HK could say that I have done a pretty good job following POJA when it comes to needing to go places or trying to do things together. After we stopped being on the phone I found myself using my phone and computer at work to stay busy and that became the major point of contention. I would listen to videos and podcasts on my phone or use my computer to do school work or play games. This has become a massive problem for HK because she fears I will see content she doesn't approve of or find that playing games or doing school work is more desirable than spending time with her. She is probably right in her assessment because HK doesn't spend recreational time with me. Besides that, I don't believe we actually have many problems with POJA except for coming to an agreement on what to do when I'm at work. We can't seem to solve this problem.

You do understand that the default position is to do nothing, right? It is not to demand that your spouse offer up suitable alternatives FIRST because as long as you engage in those activities, it causes love bank withdrawals...

Quote
As of now, we had a bad miscommunication last night. She is not talking to me and I fear she is not going to allow me to see the kids anymore.

MW

I would encourage you to stop reading her thread here and start your own thread. And more importantly, to follow the advice given by your Marriage Builders coach. Best of luck...


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Hi MilkyWay, and welcome to the public forum.

I appreciate your point about not your wife not giving your side of the story. I think it would be helpful for you and us to hear your side. Are you willing to start your own thread on the public forum?

Some of us are able to read your posts on the private forum, so we can get a bit more insight from those. However, it is not easy to understand your situation and how you got to it. I can see that your working life has upset your wife, but I don't know why. Have you had an affair, and was it facilitated by workplace communication? How did you end up living apart, and for how long has this happened?

The pornography, tobacco and other things you mention are more self-evident annoyances for her. However, I don't like the tone of deep resentment that comes through in your posts when you describe the sacrifices that you have made to "appease' your wife. When you use the word "appease", you sound like someone describing the British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain's grovelling to Hitler, an evil dictator whose demands should never have been conceded. Is that how you mean to describe your wife's feelings? In fact, your entire description of her paints a picture of an "insecure" (your word), unpleasant, irrational, unstable person whose demands have no reasonable basis and which never end. Now, you might argue that this is not the entirety of how you see her (or not how you see her at all), but I want to point out that this is how you have described her. And on the contrary, you have described yourself as ever-giving, tolerant, sacrificing, caring, and considerate. My point is that it's very easy to paint a one-sided picture, and it's very hard for us to see ourselves as others see us.

How did a "miscommunication" result in her possibly not allowing the kids to see you any more? Could you explain what happened, taking care to respectfully convey your wife's point of view?


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The objective of the forum is not to field "different viewpoints" but to help posters understand Dr. Harley's viewpoints. Like you, we don't know how to save marriages. Dr. Harley DOES. So, we are here to discuss his concepts.
That's not accurate. The forums exist mainly to discuss situations not covered in the hard copies of the MB literature and radio program. Dr. Harley doesn't have the time to answer every question in every situation that may arise and so the forums exist as an attempt to facilitate filling the void. These "different viewpoints" I've mentioned are assumed to be subjectively deep-seeded in Dr. Harley's basic and advanced concepts. When I say, "provide different viewpoints," this is not an invitation for some random person's uneducated anecdotal take on solving marital problems, but instead is a request designed to encourage a reader to explain MB concepts to the best of their ability rather than blindly encourage a topic author to discard their spouse and start anew with someone seemingly less deplorable. There was a much greater context to account for here and you missed it (or avoided it... who knows...).

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
You do understand that the default position is to do nothing, right?
Yes.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
It is not to demand that your spouse offer up suitable alternatives FIRST
I didn't imply that it was. The POJA states that I am to stop the behavior then brainstorm for enthusiastic solutions with abandonment. My wife is supposed to help but she rarely follows through. This lack of follow through has become an underlying issue in our IB conflict resolution. I'm usually left holding my head staring at a blank wall because she is not okay with anything.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I would encourage you to stop reading her thread here and start your own thread.
Thanks. Would you also encourage me to kick her to the curb and find someone else more suitable for marriage? I mean, HK has specifically stated that she believes she "may not be marriage material" due to her overwhelming insecurity. You're on your way to a tenth of a million posts, you tell me.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
And more importantly, to follow the advice given by your Marriage Builders coach.
My coach asked me to be weary of disrespect in my emails to HK (we courtesy copy sandy every e-mail we send) and to work with her on finding things for me to do at work that she would be comfortable with. HK abandoned the MB lesson plan (that we paid almost $1000 for) because she wasn't happy about my inconsistencies with POJA as it pertains to my free time at work. It got to the point where HK would get angry with me if I asked her how she felt about me going to the store or anything of the sort. She told me to stop POJA. Now, she's not even responding to anything anymore and I fear she is not going to let me see my children. She's probably following your advice from the other day- cooking up divorce papers as we speak.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
Are you willing to start your own thread on the public forum?
The decision has been made for me. I've been unilaterally volunteered.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
I can see that your working life has upset your wife, but I don't know why.
Any interaction with the opposite sex has made my wife very uncomfortable so I've all but completely eliminated it. My job requires a very brief interaction with a handful of females. Thankfully, no one I find physically attractive. I don't need to have an affair to raise my wife's level of concern with my social interactions at work. She has always been amply concerned from the very beginning of our relationship. I've gone to great lengths to help alleviate her insecurities while we've been committed.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
Have you had an affair, and was it facilitated by workplace communication?
During mine and my wife's separation in 2018 I had a relationship with a female co-worker that could be considered inappropriate. Albeit, I considered her a friendly work acquaintance, I was not in love with this female by any stretch of the imagination. She was married and I was also acquainted with her husband who I respected. However, I did consider our relation to be an emotional affair because I'm fairly certain that she felt strongly towards me and I didn't protect my love bank from her. If things progressed I could imagine becoming attached to her, at least in some way. She made two attempts to lead me into what I believe were sexual invitations, all by which I rejected immediately, once to the detriment of our friendship. She moved away with her husband and her brother which closed the casket on any further interference.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
However, I don't like the tone of deep resentment that comes through in your posts when you describe the sacrifices that you have made to "appease' your wife. When you use the word "appease", you sound like someone describing the British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain's grovelling to Hitler, an evil dictator whose demands should never have been conceded.
lol... I don't think my usage of the word 'appease' demands your so eloquently displayed choice of simile, but nevertheless I certainly enjoyed reading it.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
In fact, your entire description of her paints a picture of an "insecure" (your word), unpleasant, irrational, unstable person whose demands have no reasonable basis and which never end.
Certainly, acknowledging my wife's self portrayal of feeling insecure does not amount to.... all that. You may have fell victim to the negative connotation associated with the word. Let's just agree that insecurity is a derivative of fear and we're all insecure at times; some more often and more severely than others. I'll take responsibility for my wife's insecurity just so as long as she is cordial with me. It's difficult for me to have empathy for someone who treats me like garbage.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
And on the contrary, you have described yourself as ever-giving, tolerant, sacrificing, caring, and considerate.
Wow. This is *so* me.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
My point is that it's very easy to paint a one-sided picture
Actually, that was one of *my* points.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
How did a "miscommunication" result in her possibly not allowing the kids to see you any more? Could you explain what happened, taking care to respectfully convey your wife's point of view?
I really don't think I should go there. I really hope HK will reconsider her severance from communication if I promise to remain quiet about the whole thing. I'm better off leaving this one as it lays because no one here will believe me and HK will certainly hunt my head for publicizing it. Let's just call it a miscommunication and a knee-jerk decision born out of an angry outburst.

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Originally Posted by MilkyWay
Originally Posted by SugarCane
My point is that it's very easy to paint a one-sided picture
Actually, that was one of *my* points.

Yes, I saw that, and I was trying to show you how you were doing the same thing. You seem to have missed MY point.

Milky Way, I'm not going to go through your post dissecting it line by line and making clever rejoinders, as you have done with mine and Melody Lane's. I would just urge you to put down your weapons and stop attacking people who post to you. If your only purpose in posting here was to slap MelodyLane for what she said to your wife, and equally, to tear down the picture that you believe your wife painted of you, I think that would be a sad waste of the resources available here. However, if you would like us to support you in implementing the advice that you are given by your coach and Dr Harley, there are people here who will give up their time to help you, because we want to pay back the help that we ourselves received on this forum.

But you need to stop fighting us, and stop trying to show us that you are right and your wife is wrong in your marriage.


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Originally Posted by MilkyWay
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The objective of the forum is not to field "different viewpoints" but to help posters understand Dr. Harley's viewpoints. Like you, we don't know how to save marriages. Dr. Harley DOES. So, we are here to discuss his concepts.
That's not accurate. The forums exist mainly to discuss situations not covered in the hard copies of the MB literature and radio program. Dr. Harley doesn't have the time to answer every question in every situation that may arise and so the forums exist as an attempt to facilitate filling the void.

No, that is not why the forums exist at all. They exist to help posters understand the Marriage Builders principles. Dr Harley doesn't try to address every situation, because that is not necessary. The users are smart enough to apply the principles to their situations once they understand them.

Quote
to explain MB concepts to the best of their ability rather than blindly encourage a topic author to discard their spouse and start anew with someone seemingly less deplorable. There was a much greater context to account for here and you missed it (or avoided it... who knows...).

It seems Dr. Harley agreed with me:
Originally Posted by AHersheyKiss
Dr. Harley wrote me back after my response to his first message this morning. He said "Sandy will try to work with him on the POJA. Without his willingness to follow it, I'm afraid that your relationship can't move forward."

Keep in mind, Dr Harley gave the same advice I did and he knows you both. But that is the standard advice when a spouse refuses to use the POJA as was being reported.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
It is not to demand that your spouse offer up suitable alternatives FIRST
I didn't imply that it was. The POJA states that I am to stop the behavior then brainstorm for enthusiastic solutions with abandonment. My wife is supposed to help but she rarely follows through. This lack of follow through has become an underlying issue in our IB conflict resolution. I'm usually left holding my head staring at a blank wall because she is not okay with anything.
[/quote]

If you are following the POJA then why hasn't the behavior stopped? Why aren't you brainstorming with her? You know what you like, so you should be offering up solutions. If she doesn't want to "brainstorm" on demand, that doesn't mean you ignore her complaints and keep doing the things that upset her, though. The default is to do nothing.

Look, we would be happy to help you, but that is not going to happen if you come on here with anger and sarcasm. That will just result in a locked thread. We aren't going to waste our time with that kind of attitude.




"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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@SugarCane

No. I'm not here to tear down my wife's description of her problems with me. They're mostly accurate until she begins to tell you what my thoughts and opinions are on these topics. She gets that wrong a lot.

It really doesn't matter. She has gone radio silent. On my way home from work I drove past her apartment around 2pm. I presume she was home because her car was there. I also noticed her affair's vehicle was parked close to hers. He is usually not around the apartments at that time (yes, my wife's affair lives in the same building as she does-surely she mentioned it?) but today, there he was. Tsk tsk...

She has been really quiet towards me these past few weeks. She was never allowing me to come over to her apartment anymore and she certainly wasn't interested in spending any time together but she was enthusiastic about me taking the kids all weekend. It's starting to look bad to me. I imagine she has decided to begin talking to him again. She was so head over heels for their intense conversations and they were texting each other all day everyday until it stopped late September last year. They would also hang out together outside and talk for hours. She has a strong emotional need for conversation and she certainly hasn't bothered me for it lately so I can imagine she has been getting it elsewhere. She becomes super depressed if she isn't getting conversation. It is one of her most important emotional needs. I've attempted to get into some deep discussion with her but she eventually stopped texting me back. Maybe she was busy talking to him. Maybe she fell asleep. I may never know.

She and him were talking and texting all day every day up until the end of September last year but only because I moved to live near her and the kids. She stopped talking to her affairs because she wanted to help reconcile our marriage. I would later find out that she was still in casual business related contact with her second affair through her college email system. But I'm honestly not too devastated over it except for when she told me that she wanted to pursue him and would have if I wasn't around. I encouraged her to write a letter to the third affair who lived in her apartment building in order to sever the relationship but she insisted not to burn the bridge with him. We agreed on sending him a text messge that would at least notify him that she wasn't interested in texting him anymore because *she was too busy with school, kids, and her husband returning to fix our relationship* but she by no means told him to never speak to her again. She kept the same phone number and still lives in her apartment just up the stairs from him.

We lasted 4 months. This past Saturday night marked the probable end of our marriage and I fear I may never see my kids again. I admit, it has been very difficult trying to match up to the conversation she was having with the guy downstairs. He was obviously smarter than me and had much more to say. Plus, its an affair, I mean... there's nothing to complain about. Its a dream come true for those involved. I hope the affair isn't rekindling. I hope I'm wrong but nothing is looking good at this point and there is no one around who can help me. I have no one to talk to about this so I'm here on the forums hoping she will hear me and hoping someone can give some insight as to what to do next.

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
They exist to help posters understand the Marriage Builders principles. Dr Harley doesn't try to address every situation, because that is not necessary. The users are smart enough to apply the principles to their situations once they understand them.

You're not wrong about that. And by the way, I didn't say you were wrong in your initial explanation of the existence of the forums. I said it was inaccurate. I felt you were only *somewhat* missing the mark. But that isn't even my real concern with this. I just don't like you telling my wife to divorce me and find someone else because I already have THREE people here who have been threatening my marriage and one of them literally lives just under her feet.

Originally Posted by AHersheyKiss
Dr. Harley wrote me back after my response to his first message this morning. He said "Sandy will try to work with him on the POJA. Without his willingness to follow it, I'm afraid that your relationship can't move forward."

I understand that but it isn't as simple as it seems. HK wasn't cooperating with the MB lessons. Dr. Harley explicitly stated that we were to get in the 15 hours of quality UA time above all else, even the MB lessons themselves, because that time literally heals the relationship because of all the love bank deposits you make.

Now, listen... The problem with my free time at work and the POJA is NOT so cut and dry. It's not as simple as *he isn't following POJA* because HK wants us to be on the phone the entire time. We used to stay on the phone 24 hours a day and it was during that time HK was most secure because she could listen in on everything I was doing and be sure that I wasn't doing anything she would disagree with. I became displeased with being on the phone all the time and Dr. Harley told her she couldn't force me to stay on the phone with her. She somewhat fell apart after that because she was specifically told she couldn't control that aspect of our relationship with Dr. Harley's policies. She began to accuse me of independent behavior and then made my work hours and POJA the focal point of her attack. If I'm not on board with it the way she wants me to be then she says *everything you do is hurting me* and she means literally everything. But wait! HK won't consistently brainstorm with me so I'm forced to sit in a room and stare at a wall. I ended up sitting there all day doing nothing and HK was unavailable to talk to me and was too busy to workout any ideas. People were walking by asking me what the hell I was doing because I was sitting there doing nothing. Thank GOD my partner sat in the room with me. We worked on algebra together. I'm unofficially tutoring him with what I know in mathematics. I don't think the wife had a problem with that but the problem is my partner during that shift can't handle working out equations for very long. Also, he's abysmal to talk to.

HK and I had some very good quality UA time the other week. It was so good and she was so nice to me that after I left her house I called her and encouraged her to stay on the phone with me while we go to sleep. I feel so much better about following along with everything she was when we are getting UA time in. HK will say that it hurts her to spend UA time with me because she becomes attached and then I don't follow POJA and she is hurting. The problem is that she is assuming I'm doing something she doesn't agree with. She doesn't talk to me about it. As I've already stated, she eventually stopped me from asking her how she felt about my decisions. She stopped POJA all together because its all or nothing. There is no such thing as building up to the result we're looking for. Small strides do not exist. So she burns the entire forest down to catch the wolf.

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Originally Posted by MilkyWay
(yes, my wife's affair lives in the same building as she does-surely she mentioned it?)
Sorry, what?

Milky Way, instead of pretending to let slip little bits of information like this, when really you had every intention all along of releasing this landmine and stunning us all, why don't you take me up on my suggestion that you tell us about your marriage properly, from the beginning?

Please tell us about these affairs - their length, depth and timing (when in the marriage they occurred), and how they were conducted under your nose, and how you came to know about them, and how they supposedly ended. Also, please tell us what Dr Harley makes of your wife's living in the same building as one of these men.

You can't get any help here (although we are still taking time and trying to help you) until your posts start making sense - so please drop the cryptic bombs, the smart-arsed tone and the sarcasm. Talk to us as you would talk to someone you were asking for help - which is what I thought you were doing.


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@SugarCane

My wife had 3 emotional affairs. She met them all through college. One was a classmate. One was a college advisor/co-worker. The last was her tutor. The tutor lives in the same building as she does.

I'm not sure when these affairs started. Some could have started as early as 2 years ago. Supposedly they all stopped before or during late September last year.

The classmate is a young man my wife met in her Spanish college course. He was open about wanting to pursue my wife sexually but my wife refused to sleep with him until she was divorced. Until then, they were to remain just friends. He pursued my wife for quite some time. They spoke frequently together via texting and would join each other for dinner during school outings with her other classmates and her teacher. They made plans for play dates but supposedly these plans fell through. I think they took breaks together between classes and did homework together.

The college advisor is a man closer to my age. My wife worked with him in the same building when she first arrived to her new residence. He became a friendly coworker and volunteered to be my wife's unofficial college advisor. They spoke frequently at work. Gossiping and fraternizing for he was forbidden to engage in private relationships with students. Their conversations grew personal and intimate. He expressed to her how he enjoyed hearing about her life and he would frequently offer to help her with scholarships and college advice. Initially she omitted information about him. I only found out about him because he started texting her randomly in the early evening hours while I was visiting with her at her apartment. At that point she owed me an explanation. She confessed to me that she would have sexually pursued him if I was not around, especially now that she knew he was sexually interested in her. She angrily defended herself over this occurrence with this man. I was distraught but I did a great job maintaining my composure.

The tutor lives in the same building as my wife. He is a man in his early 30s and he has a child with a girl he doesn't live with. He and my wife had the deepest, most personal relationship out of the three affairs. They would text each other at length day and night. They would also spend time together in the park and join each other for lunch during residential outings. They shared music, personal interests and goals, political and social views, and daily schedules. Eventually the tutor would attempt to take their relationship to the next level. He invited my wife over to his apartment to listen to his music together. It was at this point that my wife told him that she felt entering his apartment would be crossing the line because she was still married. She proceeded to call me to advise me about this affair for the first time. At first I was shocked and numb. Then I became panicked. And then I became angry. I emailed Dr. Harley and he responded to my crisis over the MB Radio program. My wife and I made plans for me to move to her city and it took only two weeks to make it happen. It was very exciting to see my wife and kids again. We began staying on the phone at all times to keep her from desiring to talk to him and that trend continued well into my arrival to her location.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
Also, please tell us what Dr Harley makes of your wife's living in the same building as one of these men.
At first, she fought me very hard about keeping her affair as a friend so the only alternative was to stay on the phone with my wife night and day to ensure that she would not feel the need to contact him. I suggested that she needed to move out from her apartment ASAP but that seemed like a task easier said than done. My wife has no income other than my child support, tax returns, college funds and TANF/SNAP. She lives in an assistance program for single parents. The criteria for living at her residence is she must attend college full time and attend residential workshops, mandatory meetings, and adhere to rules/regulations cited by the administrators for the property.

I don't believe Dr. Harley knows about the affairs? I don't think Joyce nor Bill knew that it was me who submitted the email to them that they addressed on the MB Radio program. Dr. Harley suggested that she should find a new place to live but my wife argued against it. She claims that Dr. Harley may not subject her to the same conflict management based on her specific situation. I really don't think Bill and Joyce know the specifics of the situation with the affairs.

I'm trying my best to make this make sense. This is a massive undertaking for me to dig this info out and explain it. I'm trying to be very accurate and detailed so bear with me. I'm really scared to be posting this information. I feel like my wife will retaliate worse against me than she already is but I'm out of options because she is no longer communicating with me. I really miss my kids =(

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Thank you for clarifying.

I only have a minute just now, but I did spend the morning reading yours and your wife's posts, and Dr Harley's replies. It seems to me that you have signed up to the coaching service without full disclosure being made. Would you agree with that assessment?

You wrote to Dr Harley about the affair with the man in her apartment block, but you didn't tell him your identity, so he doesn't know that the couple on his programme are battling this issue. Is that correct? If so, what do you think you should do about that?

The problem is that we can't support you with Dr Harley's coaching if we are aware that he knows less than we do. I would venture to suggest that his focus on things like your independent behaviour would shift radically if he had known all along about your wife's close relationship with a man who lives downstairs (or is it upstairs) from her.


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Sorry for not getting back to this sooner. I wasn't feeling well yesterday.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
It seems to me that you have signed up to the coaching service without full disclosure being made. Would you agree with that assessment?

I'm not 100% sure what Dr. Harley knows. I do remember that neither me nor my wife checked off on having affairs when we filled out the initial program questionnaire. To answer the question, yes. I agree that not everything has been disclosed but again, I don't know what Dr. Harley knows because I'm not sure what my wife has disclosed to him in her private e-mails.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
You wrote to Dr Harley about the affair with the man in her apartment block, but you didn't tell him your identity, so he doesn't know that the couple on his programme are battling this issue. Is that correct?

Right. This letter to Dr. Harley was back in mid September last year (2019) months before we started the MB Coaching program. I wrote the letter simply to described the situation and the plan to move to my wife's city for reconciliation. I ended the letter by asking for advice moving forward. I didn't get into the details of who we are or our complex past history. I was giving him a basic situation, one he has dealt with an immeasurable amount of times, in hopes for a cut and dry cookie cutter response, which is exactly what I got.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
If so, what do you think you should do about that?

I have a phone conversation scheduled with Dr. Harley in a couple weeks. We can talk about it in detail then.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
I would venture to suggest that his focus on things like your independent behaviour would shift radically if he had known all along about your wife's close relationship with a man who lives downstairs (or is it upstairs) from her.

Just so you know, my intentions are not to shift the focus and responsibility away from myself. I have anger issues that are still not completely resolved and I am having a really hard time figuring out how to follow POJA in a way that doesn't feel like I'm losing. That being said, I don't feel like I'm being heard by anyone when I say I'm up against a serious set of troublesome circumstances. I have no issue taking responsibility for the things I can control in my life and I have been putting in the work necessary to defeat the annoying habits, the love busters, and the independent behavior that my wife is so frustrated with but I would like my wife to be held responsible for her anger and her abhorrent behavior as well because it is making this process incredibly more difficult than necessary. I want to be taken seriously when I complain or when I try to explain the problems I am having in our relationship. I believe I have some good insight that can help explain why my wife is having such visceral reactions and how we fundamentally got to where we are. In my opinion, this is not as simple as a discrepancy in POJA. There are some very fundamental problems between my wife and I that need to be addressed and I need an authority in the MB program to help her understand that she is just as responsible for her abhorrent behavior as I am of mine.

If you ask my wife, "who is responsible for your husband's anger?" she will tell you, "my husband."

If you ask my wife, "who is responsible for *your* anger?" she will also tell you, "my husband."

One of the major conflicts I have with my wife is her lack of the assumption of liability in our relationship. I don't think she has ever been held accountable for anything by anyone and it has created a careless, selfish mentality that I've unfortunately felt the brunt of for many years.


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Originally Posted by MilkyWay
That being said, I don't feel like I'm being heard by anyone when I say I'm up against a serious set of troublesome circumstances. I have no issue taking responsibility for the things I can control in my life and I have been putting in the work necessary to defeat the annoying habits, the love busters, and the independent behavior that my wife is so frustrated with but I would like my wife to be held responsible for her anger and her abhorrent behavior as well because it is making this process incredibly more difficult than necessary. I want to be taken seriously when I complain or when I try to explain the problems I am having in our relationship. I believe I have some good insight that can help explain why my wife is having such visceral reactions and how we fundamentally got to where we are. In my opinion, this is not as simple as a discrepancy in POJA. There are some very fundamental problems between my wife and I that need to be addressed and I need an authority in the MB program to help her understand that she is just as responsible for her abhorrent behavior as I am of mine.
I don't understand why you're not being heard. When you fill out the lesson surveys, you have the opportunity to identify every single act of AO or IB or anything else. You give these to your coach for her to take up with your wife. Your coach consults with Dr Harley and gives you concrete suggestions for how to tackle each issue.

Do you feel that you diligently list the things that happen during the week between lessons, and that you get no response to them? I have never heard anyone say this about the MB programme, and it certainly wasn't my experience. Please explain what happens.



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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Do you feel that you diligently list the things that happen during the week between lessons, and that you get no response to them?

Its rare to hear from Sandy or Dr. Harley. We courtesy copy Sandy in every e-mail we write to one another but we're not getting much feedback. I think the lack of responsiveness has contributed to my wife's hopelessness. I'm not blaming MB by any means. I take full responsibility for the hardships I've caused but its worth noting that my wife is clearly underwhelmed with the responsiveness of the coach.

When I did speak to Sandy over the phone we covered the expectations of POJA and I told her specifically that I feel like my complaints are constantly falling on deaf ears and have been for years. Sandy told me to work on my wife's complaints for now and we'll get to mine later because we had to get her to "calm down and get back onto the program." So, this is another example of my wife's problems superseding mine. In case anyone has forgotten, my wife stopped doing the MB lessons which really blows my mind because some of our scheduled UA time was simply *amazing* but she felt my unaddressed free time at work was too devastating to continue- so she dropped the program altogether. This is the 4th marriage counseling program she has terminated. We have gone through 5 counselors total. I am responsible for terminating one recent counselor. I left that program because the counselor was actually getting angry with me and I felt that I needed an objective mediator. Plus, we just began the MB program around the same time and the generic counselor was getting upset that we were in a separate program.

So, now me and the wife are not even communicating because of what happened this past Saturday. MB e-mailed me the weekly survey and I filled it out with some very disappointing metrics. Sandy e-mailed me shortly after to schedule a phone call with Dr. Harley but she didn't complete the scheduling. She inquired about my available times and I sent my availability back to her but she hasn't responded. So the phone call with Dr. Harley isn't even set in stone yet. All I know is I may hear from him in about two weeks from today. To add to all that, I send Sandy a very long winded e-mail about a huge problem between my wife and I but I've received no feedback. So, that leaves me talking to the forums about this because there is no one else. I won't dare talk to my family about it. They can't help and this whole situation is just embarrassing.


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Originally Posted by MilkyWay
Sandy told me to work on my wife's complaints for now and we'll get to mine later because we had to get her to "calm down and get back onto the program."

That sounds like excellent advice.

Originally Posted by MilkyWay
So, this is another example of my wife's problems superseding mine.

The POJA is an odd duck.
When you are in love you have an overwhelming urge to put your partner's needs ahead of yours.
When you are not in love the POJA feels like a massive power struggle.

Both of the above reactions are wrong but for different reasons.

If you keep putting your partner's needs ahead of yours, your taker will suddenly leap out and start screaming blue murder. That is why it is so important to brainstorm. You must work together to find a solution that 100% satisfies the needs of both.

The POJA feels like a massive power struggle when your taker is in charge. Very hard to overcome the urge to scream 'but what about MY complaints' but doing that will not get you your wife back so somehow you have to overcome that feeling, it is very hard. But addressing her complaints will make her feel loved and guess what? Once she feels loved she will want to put your needs ahead of hers; good eh?.



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Thank you for the fresh objectiveness, living_well.

Originally Posted by living_well
When you are not in love the POJA feels like a massive power struggle.

Yes. I feel like my wife is attempting to 'weaponize' the policy of joint agreement to control every waking moment of my life and it's because we're not in love. As we were putting in the UA time, as we've scheduled it for the MB program lessons, I was starting to get back into that place where my giver wanted to take over. I wanted to get back on the phone with her and let her have a constant window to peer into my workdays and allow her to have a say in every minuscule decision I had to make. Unfortunately, she refused to keep doing UA because I wasn't following POJA to her liking. Its a catch 22 situation and I don't think she has ever cared about me enough to be the one to bite the bullet and take the first plunge. I've always had to take the lead for her and it has gotten me no where. Maybe that aspect of my personality has been used against me. Maybe I'm in more of an abusive relationship than I know.

Originally Posted by living_well
If you keep putting your partner's needs ahead of yours, your taker will suddenly leap out and start screaming blue murder.

This is what happened. And I can even delve into the psychological reason for this. When I first moved up here to live near my wife my giver was in full throttle. Eventually, my taker mounted up and then things fell apart. I believe this happened because of two fundamental flaws in our relationship: One, we had no recreational companionship besides having sex. Two, my wife wasn't being attentive to her love busters and that made me despise having her on the phone with me all the time. Since I didn't like having her on the phone, she began to feel insecure because she didn't know what I was up to at every given moment. Therefore, she began to vehemently accuse me of independent behavior which gave her justification for her own hypocritical independent behavior. We both fell into the trap of having a better time apart than together and now she is using everything under her control to retaliate against me. See, disagreements don't stop with my wife at simple impasses. No, she will tear down all progress that we've made including not letting me see the kids because of her disdain for me. She will make sure I suffer. She will make me pay one hundred fold.

Originally Posted by living_well
But addressing her complaints will make her feel loved and guess what? Once she feels loved she will want to put your needs ahead of hers; good eh?

I wish it were that easy. She isn't being honest about her complaints. She wanted to have the right to demand that I keep her on the phone with me so she can constantly check up on me. Once Dr. Harley told her that she can't keep me on the phone against my will she started to fall apart. Now, she blindly accuses me of IB based on assumptions but really its because she doesn't have me on the phone while I'm at work. She hates the fact that she will not get permission from Dr. Harley to demand that I stay on the phone with her at all times so she is tearing down the whole program along with our marriage and my fatherly relationship with our lovely children.

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Originally Posted by living_well
When you are not in love the POJA feels like a massive power struggle.

Originally Posted by MilkyWay
I was starting to get back into that place where my giver wanted to take over. I wanted to get back on the phone with her and let her have a constant window to peer into my workdays and allow her to have a say in every minuscule decision I had to make.

and now you know that was no good either. We all came to MB with no idea how to have a happy marriage, don't beat yourself up. But you cannot let your giver take over. You need to only agree to something that works 100% for both of you. But the good news is that you can always POJA again from the beginning. Tell her that you got it wrong, you now understand that unless you are both enthusiastic it will not work because it will quickly fall apart.

When my husband and I were first married he found the POJA very hard because he wanted so badly to please me and because he is a pleaser by nature. It took us an entire summer to POJA our first holiday together because he would not tell me what he enjoyed. The process was tons of fun. We negotiated over dinner every evening. I would throw out travel ideas and he would bat them around and throw some back. Eventually we had an awesome holiday - much better than either of us would have thought of alone. Now we can POJA a subject in the blink of an eyelid but those early POJA days were fun.


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Originally Posted by living_well
But the good news is that you can always POJA again from the beginning.

If only it were that simple. I'm not sure I'm being heard here. It is critical to note that my wife's displeasure is systemic of not being on the phone with me 24 hours a day. We've always had POJA discrepancies but they didn't cause the type of catastrophe we're experiencing as of now. The real culprit is her inability to get permission from Dr. Harley to keep me on the phone 24/7 because he specifically said she CAN'T and she has been in a slump ever since. Even if we had the absolute best POJA routines developed my wife would still be extremely displeased because she has no way of coping with separation besides keeping me on the phone with her. At some point someone is going to have to admit that I'm not going to be able to resolve all these issues on my own while simultaneously keeping my head on straight. My wife is going to have to accept responsibility for her various forums of misbehavior rather than placing all the blame on me. If she can't do that then she's probably right in her self assessment- she's not "marriage material".

What's more is if she wants to get divorced but keep the peace she would let me see my kids without the prospect of an inevitable custody dispute. We could use a 3rd party liaison but she won't because it's not about the kids or the POJA. It's about control. If she keeps my kids from me then she knows she will have something that I want and with that she maintains control over me. She knows I love my kids dearly and I'm finally in a place where I feel like I can be a father to my kids without letting the lack of a romantic relationship with their mother interfere. Is it completely out of the realm of possibility that I'm married to a tyrant?

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Originally Posted by MilkyWay
When I did speak to Sandy over the phone we covered the expectations of POJA and I told her specifically that I feel like my complaints are constantly falling on deaf ears and have been for years. Sandy told me to work on my wife's complaints for now and we'll get to mine later because we had to get her to "calm down and get back onto the program." So, this is another example of my wife's problems superseding mine...

...she felt my unaddressed free time at work was too devastating to continue...
I went back to your wife's original thread on this forum, and I saw a horrifying picture of your marriage when she was expecting a child in 2015:
Hershey's first thread. It would be a good idea for your to read it right through, and when you've done that, to RESIST the urge to write here refuting what she said about your behaviour, or trying to put a context to that behaviour.

What I saw in that thread, and in what your wife has written in the private forum and in her other thread that was recently active, was a woman who'd become a mother very young, who has - is it six children now? (it was five in that thread) who has faced enormous challenges, one of the biggest being you. There were descriptions of your anger and neglect that made my hair stand on end. Indeed, I wrote to her on that thread and asked what what the heck she was doing getting back with you, since she was separated at the time she started writing here.

I can see that your wife has enrolled herself on an education programme that gives her accommodation for her and the kids, an income, and the prospect of self-sufficiency when she finishes her course. I think that, regardless of any of the things that she does wrong, she has managed something amazing with this. Your wife might have emotional problems that we on the forum do not know about (and so you might be protesting at how I see her), but even if she does have these, she is going to make it and do well in the future through her own hard work and initiative. The thing is that you seem to want to be with her in the future, and so you need to integrate yourself into her life as it is, if that is to happen.

And so, in regard to Dr Harley's advice to work on her complaints for now and get to yours later, if I were you I would follow this advice to the letter. I think you should run as fast as you can towards his and your coach's help. This is a lifeline, and without it, you are going to lose (you might have already lost) your wife and the prospect of living with her and the kids for the future.

I don't know what else might be lurking in your wife's psychological make-up, but she is very needy where you are concerned in part because of what has gone on in your marriage in the past. Therefore, you cannot deal with this neediness by walking away from it. Dr Harley wrote that your wife could not keep you on the phone when you did not want to be on it, but from my reading of that post, he wasn't telling you that her need was too much and that you would be within your rights to stop meeting it. He simply stated that she could not force you to be on the phone, which is correct. Dr Harley's programme does not accept that one spouse has the right to make demands of the other. Demands are a form of abuse. However, the meeting of emotional needs is how love bank balances are made. You simply need to ask yourself whether you want to make those deposits, or not. If you do not make them, with your wife already being separated from you and self-sufficient, it will be very easy for her to sever ties with you - as you have seen.

Your wife might have dropped out of the programme for now, but she participated in it well enough at the start for Dr Harley to understand her emotional make-up, and to understand what she needed from you. When he told you that you needed to let her "calm down", he knew her well enough to know what would happen if you didn't; that she would run away from you, and indeed, that is what has happened. And he also knew that she could be won round if you consistently showed her extraordinary care and attention, and eliminated the complaints that she has about your behaviour. If you show her extraordinary care over the long term, Dr Harley knows that she will "calm down" to the point where she can listen and respond to your complaints.

As I have said, she is doing a tremendous job of raising those children and studying. When you are all supposed to be together, it would seem to me to be a waste of what time you have for you to clean up the apartment and fight with the kids over bedtimes, and get annoyed and end up playing games, or studying, or ignoring your wife in some other way (and for her to ignore you, because your main emotion when you arrive at her apartment is displeasure at everything in it). The solution to this is not to wish that she would keep the apartment clean and manage the kids better, but for you to get out of that environment altogether and do something together with the kids, and also alone with her. Do the cleaning yourself if you can do it without resentment and anger, and if you can still find ways of getting proper UA and family time - after all, if you were all living together, you'd be living with the mess of six kids (several of them very young) AND you'd be trying to be a good father and husband. Alternatively, or in addition, get a cleaning service to help her. Escaping back to your place, with its peace and cleanliness and above all GAMES is not very supportive of her, is it?

Basically, you can do what you've been doing, with the result that you've achieved this week, or you can listen to Dr Harley and try and learn how to do what he tells you to do. Study your wife as if she were a degree course. Try to learn about your wife's emotional make-up and learn how to work with it.

Or not. You can stay where are you are, if you'd prefer not to do that work.


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