[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hurting Badly:<BR><B>OMG guys, how do I ever thank you for the support, encouragement, understanding, and love that I'm getting from you?</B><P>all right! <Mike puts on the soft music> C'mhere, Leon babbbeee...<P><B>all right Mike, back off a little ).</B><P><needle zings> Errr...hey, I knew you were kidding.<P><B>Bottom line: I have a decent shot at custody (if it came to that);</B><P>Interesting. Did he specify why? Is it like a stay at home thing? I thought the moms were prohibitive favorites. <P><B>I should not</B> contact OM in any way.<P>Did he say why there? Just that it could be made to look threatening and hurt your child custody argument?<P><B>Lawyer said I should tell my W that I insist she get therapy to get over the withdrawal from OM assuming she breaks it off.</B><P>I'm curious...was this legal advice? Or was he just trying to help the situation ( with the obvious)<P><B>She sounded like sh_t on the phone; depressed, quiet, guilty.</B><P>GOOD! <P>sorry...I couldn't help myself..<P><B>She even denied me the "sympathy f__k" that I asked her for once, per Mike's advice.</B><P>I wonder why people never recall the GOOD advice I give? <P>I'm praying for you. The reaction will be interesting. I guess what you would like to hear from her is "It's over, and he is totally freaked that his W might hear about this, so PLEASE don't do anything rash"<P>Hang in there, buddy. You are playing this like a champ.<P>One other thought (I'm adding this in the AM in a more somber mood). Whatever she said last night or this morning... whatever "decision" she have come to or may come to in the next few hectic days....the validity of that in predicting the future is close to zero when weighed against the actions in your control: i.e.: your behavior. In other words, she may say she'll stay with you and break off the relationship, but if you don't executue a strong Plan A over the months ahead to get her back into the marriage, than her statement this week will mean nothing, and she will drift back to this OM or find another. By the same token, if she says or has said that she wants a divorce and is leaving forever to be with the OM, your reaction will have more to do with making that an actual reality 6 months out than her statement during this time of turmoil will.<P>Make sense? I know it is wordy. Take away message: stay cool, surprise her with your strength and love.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 29, 2000).]

Sorry to her this Leon. But you have stood tall and taken it with grace and dignity.<P>I too went to see a lawyer today and put down a retainer. This laywer is soooo tough, when the ohter attorney's find out that she is on your side they will more than likely refuse to take the other spouses case. Hot damn, I'm feeling good. I've got the best attorney on the entire island.<P>Hang in there, you have been nothing but an example of pure love an patience.<p>[This message has been edited by SadnLonely (edited August 29, 2000).]

Just checking in on you, Leon. Glad you have an appointment with Steve and good advice from a lawyer.<P>It's gonna get harder as you on these next few weeks. She will say things that you won't come CLOSE to understanding. She DOES feel guilt and disappointment in herself. Try to resist the temptation to make that worse so that she can "get a taste of it". She can't feel as you do, can only try to understand the suffering, just as YOU can't feel the pain that she's going/been through as well.<P>This affair was not your fault. It was a bad decision that she made and made on her own to cope with something that should have/could have been handled another way. It is her responsibility. It won't help to hear this now, I'm likely to get blasted, but the fact of the matter is, I would bet money that she never intended it, didn't go looking for it, never would have believed she was capable of it and has been and will continue to be in absolute shock that it happened. And feeling pain and guilt that we can only imagine. THAT'S why our spouses believe (temporarily) that these things must be "meant to be". Otherwise, why would they EVER go against everything they ever believed in?<P>Leon, when Robert left me that day, do you know what he took with him? One pair of shorts, 2 shirts and a pistol (with ammo) that my father had left him. He couldn't pull himself from PT at that point, but he was so very disappointed...in himself...that he seriously considered ending his life rather than go one more day with what was going on. I notified his family and had his brother ask for the gun. I found out later he had pulled it out several times to use it and didn't. Though his behavior with me was deplorable, the things he said more cruel than I thought he was capable of, I found out from others that he spent much time pretty much falling apart, violently condemning himself, refusing to eat, etc. No, my friend, your discovering the truth is not the first suffering your wife has done over this, nor will it be the last. Please understand that. She caused this pain, for both of you, but don't discount what she has been going through either.<P>You know, even though our spouses made this horrible decision, it does NOT absolve us from our responsibility. We did not "deserve" this, I would never say that. However, through ignorance or selfishness, we DID contribute to the state of our marriages. Your apologies and your effort at personal growth are still valid and necessary. Did we push them there? No, absolutely not. Things should have been handled another way. They should have come to us. They should have TOLD us. But did we make that possible? Did they tell us in a million different ways and we just weren't paying attention? Did WE ignore these signals for so long that good people who really care for us (and most do, you know) slipped into patterns of behavior that are generally contrary to their nature? How much were our spouses ALREADY hurting and for how long before they let something like this happen?<P>I'm not saying these things to absolve her of the responsibility of this decision. It was wrong, it was cruel and it is her responsibility, just as Robert's decisions were his own. I guess, for me anyway, understanding, trying to realize that things MUST have been horrible for someone that I've known all these years to be honest, loyal, faithful...an absolutely wonderful human being, to have slipped in this way.....was the key to controlling my anger. I was hurt. I did not deserve to be hurt like that. But understanding helped with the anger, kept my focus and made healing easier. Not BLAMING myself, that's wrong, just accepting my share of the responsibility of the state my marriage was in...realizing that he had been hurting more than I could imagine, perhaps for a long, long time, before anything like this could have happened. That he must have been at the "end of his rope" as many of us have been in order for his thinking to short-circuit as it did.<P>Take care of yourself now. The rawness will ease with time and effort and you will think more clearly. (You're not doing badly now in the thinking department, but, trust me, you'll get clearer.) We're here for you.<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lostva:<BR><B>I'm not saying these things to absolve her of the responsibility of this decision. It was wrong, it was cruel and it is her responsibility, just as Robert's decisions were his own. I guess, for me anyway, understanding, trying to realize that things MUST have been horrible for someone that I've known all these years to be honest, loyal, faithful...an absolutely wonderful human being, to have slipped in this way.....was the key to controlling my anger. I was hurt. I did not deserve to be hurt like that. But understanding helped with the anger, kept my focus and made healing easier. <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lori - I am amazed at your post. You have so much strength!! Your words, as always, give me hope. I am the WS, and I am trying to work my way out of this fog... and reading what you wrote gives me hope. My H has been incredible through all of this.<P>We worked up the details for a legal separation last night, but neither one of us will admit to wanting a divorce. I think we are both looking at this as a beginning of the end - not an end to us, but an end to the trauma we have been through since January. <P>Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It means more than you know... and gives me hope. {{{{{}}}}}<P>lost_in_love<P>

LIL,<P>Please read many of Lori's other posts. She is a remarkable woman and she is only just getting warmed up on this thread.<P>HB,<P>Listen to what Lori has said, I doubt seriously if it could be said better. Just remember you are just at the beginning. So keep the shoulder to the wheel and the nose to the grind stone (and try to work in that position. Seriously, you are going to be tested like you never have in the coming weeks and months. <P>You have done great so far, but there is a marriage to rebuild if your W decides on it. And you will be the key player in rebuilding the marriage as you were in the state of the marriage before the A.<P>Hang in there HB. You have done great so far, but the mid term and the final exam are still to come.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Leon,<P>Although I'm sorry for your situation, you did great! sorry for my suggestions to wait, that was not good, but you handled it remarkedly well, and the worse is yet to come. This marks the beginning of a very big growth period for yourself and your wife.<P>The next step is the book SAA, Surviving an affair, to go along with any counseling. I read the books, they are cheaper than talking at $95 per hour, and you can reread them as many times as you want.<P>However, one question I learned through my experience, is that I was not communicative as to my needs, and your W probably needs to learn how to increase communications with you. And that will be the area that will be the hardest, and you will need to practice making the house "Safe" for her to vent any feelings, good and bad to get over the withdrawal.<P>keep the faith, post here, and you have our support.<P>thl<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited August 29, 2000).]

Hi Leon,<P>I noticed that you recently replied to someone's post on the EN Forum, so I know you are out there.....if you want to talk about it, I was wondering what happened when your wife got home from her dinner with the OM last night? If you don't want to say anything I certainly understand!! Please know you are in a lot of people's thoughts and prayers!!!!

Hi all,<P>Update time: W came home last night about 10:00 PM (i.e. 2.5 hr "dinner" with the OM). I was cheerful, but she looked like crap. We made some small talk, then a meaningful pause. She finally said: "Well, I told him". I said "I think you did the right thing", and asked if she wanted to talk about it. She said "No, unless you want to", I said "No". She then said "goodnight", went into her bathroom, and started bawling. I went to my room, closed the door, felt sad for a microsecond, then smiled. Sorry, Lori, but it felt good to know that she is finally feeling at least a fraction of the pain that I've been dealing with. I know it's not something I will share with her, but unlike the previous night, I slept like a baby last night. I doubt that the W had such a restful sleep. <P>This morning I peaked into her room. Guess what? That fricking pager that she's been sleeping with for the last month was not there! It was downstairs in her purse, where it belonged. I don't know what they talked about over dinner last night, or what they decided to do, but at least they both know the free ride is over, and the pager being gone is a good sign, in my book.<P>This morning we drove in together (as usual). We chatted briefly about miscellaneous stuff. Then she started getting glassy eyed, we drove the next ten minutes in total silence, and close to her work she was outright breaking down. I didn't know what to say, so I said "I know you are hurting, and I'm sorry for your pain. If it's any consolation, I'm hurting too". I think the last part was stupid, but oh well. She said she probably needs to take a day off, but can't do that today. I said that I think she should consider talking to someone about her feelings and try to get some emotional help; I added that I'm probably not the right person for that right now. (Was that the right position to take? In general, I'd love to be able to have deep conversations with her again, but I think she needs to get some things cleared up in her mind first, right?). Anyway, she said she might see a pastor from our nanny's church. I thought that was a positive sign, even though she didn't promise that she'll do that.<P>In general, I think the tears I'm seeing now are more of depression and disappointment at being caught than they are tears of regret or guilt. Maybe a little of each, but I can't tell. I will just continue my Plan A as if nothing has changed (which in reality is true, since I already suspected for a long time). I think the fact that the cat is out of the bag is going to change things for the two love-birds, so I'll just wait and see what develops on that front. Like I said, the pager being "out of the picture" tells me that perhaps their honeymoon is over. Time will tell.<P>We are going to a co-worker's engagement party after work today. I was wondering if maybe she would opt to back out, with the recent revelations, but she still wants to go. I think that's good, it will give me a better chance to Plan A with her.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>[QUOTE]<BR>Bottom line: I have a decent shot at custody (if it came to that);</B><P>Interesting. Did he specify why? Is it like a stay at home thing? I thought the moms were prohibitive favorites. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Primarily due to the fact that I get home by 4:30, while she's never home before 6:30, and sometimes out till 9-10 (even w/o the OM in the picture). This is by no means guaranteed, and when he started bringing up the possibilities of psychological analyses, seeing which parent the kids run to in time of need, etc, my heart really sank. I don't know if I can put my kids through this. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I should not</B> contact OM in any way.<P>Did he say why there? Just that it could be made to look threatening and hurt your child custody argument?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yup, could be considered harassment, etc.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Lawyer said I should tell my W that I insist she get therapy to get over the withdrawal from OM assuming she breaks it off.</B><P>I'm curious...was this legal advice? Or was he just trying to help the situation ( with the obvious)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The latter.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>She sounded like sh_t on the phone; depressed, quiet, guilty.</B><P>GOOD! <P>sorry...I couldn't help myself..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry, I agree with that too. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to show this side of me to my W, but I get a lot of strength these days from knowing she may be seeing how the shoe fits. I think this is different from being vengeful, I think I just feel somehow vindicated by this. I hope these feelings go away before I empty out my Love Bank, though.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lostva:<BR><B><BR>It's gonna get harder as you on these next few weeks. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Darn, why do you guys all keep telling me this?? I'm buttoning down the hatches, preparing for come what may. But for crying out loud, when does it start getting easier/better??<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>Try to resist the temptation to make that worse so that she can "get a taste of it". </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I will resist showing her these feelings, but I can't help feeling these feelings. When do they go away?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I'm likely to get blasted, but the fact of the matter is, I would bet money that she never intended it, didn't go looking for it, never would have believed she was capable of it and has been and will continue to be in absolute shock that it happened.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Lori, I agree with you 100 percent. I will take it one step further and claim that she did not even think that what was she was doing was having an affair! I'm not joking here, guys. It is clear as daylight to me that she had rationalized in her head that she was just trying to see what she wants to do about the marriage, and she did feel that she was suffocating in too much pain in our last couple of years of marriage, so she wanted to look at her options. When I informed her yesterday that I knew about her and the OM, it took her several minutes to get used to my calling it an affair. In fact, only after I explicitly told her that she was having an affair did she stop trying to call anything else, and even then it took her a long time to get used to the "A" word.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>She caused this pain, for both of you, but don't discount what she has been going through either.<P>You know, even though our spouses made this horrible decision, it does NOT absolve us from our responsibility.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lori, this is precisely why I keep telling myself (and her) that I am still eager to rebuild our marriage. I know she was in an awful amount of pain beore this A started. I now know where this pain came from (all the MB and Needs stuff), and even though I know I always meant welll, I know she felt unloved/ignored for many years. That will never happen again, with the learning and growing I've done recently. I don't want to go on a "pain-comparing" exercise. For my scientifically minded friends, I express the situation as follows: my W was in some pain for a long period of time, and I was in intense pain for a short period of time, but the area under the curve might be equal or even larger for her! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>Take care of yourself now. The rawness will ease with time and effort and you will think more clearly. (You're not doing badly now in the thinking department, but, trust me, you'll get clearer.) <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lori, a question for you. Even though I'm still Plan A'ing, should I now try to back off a little more, to give her space and time to figure things out? Or should I still try to be engaging (in a happy way), suggest dates/other activities? What do you think she needs most at this time, company/support or solitude? I suspect it's the solitude she needs, but I'm afraid if I back off too much, she'll feel like I'm not there to support her. Thoughts?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B> You have done great so far, but the mid term and the final exam are still to come.<P>God Bless,<P>JL</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>JL, I feel like we (my W and I, not you ) are at the point of our lives where we look in the mirror and see what we're made of (gosh, I'm just full of mixed metaphors and dangling prepositions today, ain't I? <watch it, Mike!> )<P>Anyway, I feel like in the last two months I have made some major assessments about who I am, what my relationships mean to me, etc. And I haven't even read "Life Strategies" yet! I feel like I got through this experience with my head held high. I think my W is just entering this period, where she needs to examine herself as a human being, a W, a mother, a carrer person, and whatever else. No one knows what she'll find out about herself, but I believe she will find the will power to find the "good" person inside of her and to do the "right" thing. I just don't know who this "good" person will be, and what is the "right" thing that person will decide to do!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wifeofcop:<BR><B> I was wondering what happened when your wife got home from her dinner with the OM last night? <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Now you know! No convenient "accidents" for me, so I'm thankful for that, at least!<P>Leon<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hurting Badly (edited August 29, 2000).]

Oh Leon,<P>I just read all of this thread. My heart goes out for you! You're such a great guy and you've come so far with all of this. Many good thoughts for you over the next few days. <P>Lori

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bangarra:<BR><B>Oh Leon,<P>I just read all of this thread. My heart goes out for you! You're such a great guy and you've come so far with all of this. Many good thoughts for you over the next few days. <P>Lori </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Lori! Thanks for the support. I read your thread on the EN forum, and I am sorry for your situation as well. I hope your H jumps off onto the "right" side of the fence. <P>My goal at this point is to learn all I can to make sure that my "saga" takes me from the GQ II forum towards the Recovery forum, instead of the Divorcing forum. Wish me lucK!!<P>Leon<BR>

Leon,<P>Just don't be too cheerful with the W right now. As for her talking, if you can let her talk with you. It will be hard but if she comes to feel that she can say things to you that she knows hurts and you won't blow up, she will feel safe with you. <P>This will help open up the communications. You see she and OM no doubt had many talks about their relations with their spouses. You want those conversations happening with you. So if you can stand it, become her sounding board.<P>You said something in your last long post that struck me as something you want to get across to your wife as soon as practical. That the integral of pain, may be larger for her than you. Why do I say this? On the one hand you want her to feel guilty about what she has done. But it seems that that very guilt can be a hugh impediment to rebuilding the marriage.<P>So it seems to me the more you can reduce the guilt the more likely it will be that she will be able to fall in love with you again. I don't mean be a doormat, but honest discussion will help.<P>Finally, one other thing that has constantly struck me during your postings. Your W has seemed to be somewhat in tune with your feelings. She has inquired when you have been down. This isn't all that common during the affair or the fog. It means to me she knows and has known that what she was doing was wrong and that your feelings do/did count with her. <P>That is why I jumped you a long time ago about being honest with her. It does seem that she has responded positively when you have been honest with her. Keep it up.<P>HB, I may be premature, but I see great hope for you two. I think that you will both come to view this whole thing as a watershed event in your lives. A positive watershed event at that. I know that sounds perverse. Further, your W sounds like a good woman and we know you are a good guy. Right Mike??? Talk to me Mike.<P>Oh! Well, Mike must be out to lunch. <P>HB, you are doing well, keep you eye on the ball and do your best, I think you are married to a good woman. If you agree tell her that.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>For my scientifically minded friends, I express the situation as follows: my W was in some pain for a long period of time, and I was in intense pain for a short period of time, but the area under the curve might be equal or even larger for her!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I love the way you put this And, you may well be right...<P>I have read all your posts but often don't respond bcs you already have such wise people giving you advice. But, I AM awfully impressed with how well you are doing. Even doing everything "right" it takes time...it is easy to get discouraged that things don't happen faster, or that they seem to go up & down. So, check that seatbelt!<P>I also would second the advice to help her with her feelings if you can...I think being my H's "sounding board" (hhhmm, maybe it was more of a "wailing wall") was a great opportunity to build emotional closeness. <P>Hang in there--<P>Kathi<p>[This message has been edited by kam6318 (edited August 29, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>Leon,<BR> As for her talking, if you can let her talk with you. It will be hard but if she comes to feel that she can say things to you that she knows hurts and you won't blow up, she will feel safe with you. <P>This will help open up the communications. You see she and OM no doubt had many talks about their relations with their spouses. You want those conversations happening with you. So if you can stand it, become her sounding board.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, you know we actually had a couple of really deep conversations over the past couple of weeks; what I called DIY therapy. I thought these were really good for us. Of course she claimed in both of them that she was not having an A and knew that jumping into the arms of another man would be the wrong thing to do. Hmmm...<P>Still, I agree that it would be good for me to become her conversationalist again. I just want to make sure the dust settles before I try that again. But like I said to Lori, I also want to make sure that I don't give her so much space that she thinks I'm becoming distant.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>You said something in your last long post that struck me as something you want to get across to your wife as soon as practical. That the integral of pain, may be larger for her than you. Why do I say this? On the one hand you want her to feel guilty about what she has done. But it seems that that very guilt can be a hugh impediment to rebuilding the marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Glad you liked my "integral" description. I did use this example with my W yesterday, although she might have been too distraught to really hear what I was saying. I did try to tell her that I know she was in a lot of pain, and I never tried to blame her for the A. JL, I agree with you and Lori that my goal should be to let her know that I forgive her and that I want to help her deal with the pain and guilt. I'm trying to give her this message, but without overdoing it or pushing it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>HB, I may be premature, but I see great hope for you two. I think that you will both come to view this whole thing as a watershed event in your lives. A positive watershed event at that. I know that sounds perverse. Further, your W sounds like a good woman and we know you are a good guy. I think you are married to a good woman. If you agree tell her that.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I hope you are right about this being a positive watershed event. I truly do, and I personally agree that it has the potential to be that. As far as my W being a good woman: JL, if you only knew... The woman I married was truly a blessing in my life. She is the sweetest, most wonderful, most amazing, and most incredible woman I have ever met. She has given me two wonderful children, and she has been a blessing for me for the past eleven years. I know that no matter what she did, she did it not because she is a selfish and non-caring person, but because she didn't know how else to deal with the pain of her feelings over the past few years. Her biggest "fault" is that she was so much of a giver, that she followed the exact path of the "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" book, and didn't complain or ask for anything until she completely burned out. Right about that time I too followed the book's script, woke up, and started trying to give like I never had before.<P>JL, my W <B>is</B> a wonderful woman. I truly hope one day when we rebuild our marriage, we can all get together and I can say a toast to all you guys for being my guiding light through this ordeal. I can only pray for that outcome.<P>Leon<P>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>I know that sounds perverse. Further, your W sounds like a good woman and we know you are a good guy. Right Mike??? Talk to me Mike. Oh! Well, Mike must be out to lunch. </B><P>Leon is top drawer, pick of the litter, simply the best.<P>And from what I can see through my Webcam surveillance, his wife is pretty hot looking.<P>P.S. JL, I agree with your advice to Leon. Leon, make sure your W never has a hint of a whisper that you are somehow a little gleeful about the current situation. I know you are just venting here, but try to keep the smile off your face....I know I would struggle on that. I think she would really resent that....she needs you to be sympatico, not happy about her pain.<P>Besides, we really haven't found anything out yet...are they going to continue to see each other? What was the OM's reaction? <P>Mike<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B><BR>Besides, we really haven't found anything out yet...are they going to continue to see each other? What was the OM's reaction? <P>Mike</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey Mike, I sure don't know what transpired at their meeting! I doubt they completely called it off, since my W hasn't said that to me. Perhaps they decided to "cool it" and "see how it goes". Perhaps they decided to continue. I told you guys that my W didn't "sleep" with the pager last night. That may be a good sign. Or it may just be a sign that she now knows she can't talk to him from our house anyway, so no sense having the pager nearby.<P>Frankly, I'm not sure I care too much if they cut this off right away or still continue on some inertia. I firmly believe that I changed the rules of the game by letting the cat out of the bag. They both now need to see what they're made of. They each have a spouse and two kids. I doubt they have plans to dump their spouses and marry each other. I think this was more a recreational activity for them.<P>The real test will be what my W says and does around me in the next few weeks. I understand all your warnings about possible conflicting and wildly oscillating emotions, so I'll try to look for the mean rather than at the oscillations. Hopefully some pattern will emerge.<P>Leon<P>

Leon:<P>I just got back from holidays, and was so upset to see what has transpired in your life this last week. But I am also incredibly uplifted to see how you are handling it - it truly gives me pause about the human spirit, and what we can face when we need to. What does not kill us, makes us stronger. <P>Do you ever wonder why we are given these trials in life? It is amazing how these things really make us realize what is important, and help us to learn about others, but most importantly, about ourselves. These trials also show our true nature, and without a doubt, Leon, yours is shining through. Hang in there, your strength and clarity give me so much hope for you and your W.<P>Maggie

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hurting Badly:<BR><B> Frankly, I'm not sure I care too much if they cut this off right away or still continue on some inertia.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well....Harley's teachings would lead you to believe that until they cut it off completely and your W goes through at least a few months of total NO CONTACT, she will not be ready to work on your marriage.<P>As you now know that they work together, and you know how important her career is to her, some of the challenges begin to shape up.<P>Hang in there, buddy. Get on the phone with Steve. There are some wicked spins and turns ahead.<P>Thoughts are with you,<P>Mike<BR>

I haven't checked the board this much in months.<P>Ok, good going. Keep venting here, that's what we're here for. I forgot to print the darned post and can't read all your questions, but I'll tell you, you've gotten some great advice from these guys.<P>Now you'll see how much your Plan A is working on you in another way..what to do with her. It's now your job to "read" her, to determine, without a great deal of specific input whether she needs, comfort, space, a night out, whatever. Expect those needs to change on a moment by moment basis! Doesn't make your life easy, but you can do it.<P>Some of the best advice you have received is to allow her to talk to you, to use you as a sounding board (or wailing wall - I love that) no matter WHAT the topic. If she breaks it off (and honestly, it might be better if she didn't right this second), she will go through withdrawal and she will miss the needs he was filling, the way he made her feel inside and confuse that with missing HIM! You may have to hear it and console her. (I know you're hurting and I'm sorry...how can I help? is sufficient. We're not superpeople). You will be the one that catches it when she is frustrated and angry. The one she ignores, the one she runs to. Your job, no matter what she says, encourage her honestly, NO NEGATIVE reactions! That doesn't mean you tell her that something doesn't hurt - that's dishonest. But that you don't react so strongly that it's better for her not to share with you. You are now her friend. Be that friend through the hardest time of BOTH of your lives. You will be tested, she will not trust you, over and over again you will prove yourself until eventually, it becomes real for her.<P>Oh, why did I say it might be better if it doesn't end right this second? One of the things that helped Robert and I recover so relatively easily (or so they tell me! ) is that, by the time he asked to come home, it was OVER for him b/n him and PT. No love was left. He cared still, ok. But the "in love" crap had died. I didn't have to deal with someone wondering if they had passed up on the "love of their life" and sacrificed themselves for our marriage. Know what I mean? That's why I recommended telling her you knew, bringing it out in the open, removing the secrecy, the most important thing they shared. Now, the relationship can begin to die. They may want to hold on to the feelings for a while, it's a big blow to think you almost sacrificed everything for something that was really nothing, but it WILL begin to die. That will, eventually, make your life and recovery easier.<P>How long? Honey, who knows. You'll feel miserable for a while and one day realize that you didn't feel miserable, just terrible, for a few minutes that day. And then a few weeks later you'll realize you only felt miserable for a while each day and you actually enjoyed an hour yesterday. It eases...takes time and work, but it eases. Doesn't go away but doesn't cloud your every moment anymore. We've said it before, buckle up and hang on tight, this ride ain't for wimps!<P>You're doing great. You both will suffer terribly for a while, but, this, too, will pass. Stay strong, stay focused, you can do it.<P>I, too, see a lot of hope for this marriage. Just that fact that YOU recognize that she is a wonderful woman, not scum of the earth for this mistake, is the best sign of all. That has amazing power, trust me. Our hardest and first lesson toward healing is to separate the person from the deed.<P>Hang in there....there is a light at the end of this tunnel, it's just covered by fog right now and the tunnel is too darned long!<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori

HB,<P>How are you doing today? Just checking.<P>JL

Hi all,<P>Maggie, thanks for checking in on my post and giving me your encouraging words. It does mean a lot to me!<P>Let me respond to Lori first, and then I'll give you all an update. Some interesting stuff transpired, so read on. It's good stuff, I promise!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lostva:<BR><B>I haven't checked the board this much in months.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lori, for what it's worth, I cannot tell you how much you and others have helped me in this crisis. Your encouragement and guidance have essentially provided me with a roadmap for what to expect as things unfolded. You guys prepared me for almost everything that transpired, and I think this helped me handle the events in the proper fashion, without fights, outburts, explosions, etc . So my message is, if you can, PLEASE keep up with my story to help me through it! I will be forever in your debt, and who knows, you may actually be able to save a marriage in the process!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>It's now your job to "read" her, to determine, without a great deal of specific input whether she needs, comfort, space, a night out, whatever. Expect those needs to change on a moment by moment basis! Doesn't make your life easy, but you can do it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is why I need you guys! This is exactly what's been going on, and having your advice in advance is really helping me along! She is really flopping around by the hour, and I'm trying to pay careful attention and make sure that I don't smother her when she needs space, yet am there when she needs support.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Your job, no matter what she says, encourage her honestly, NO NEGATIVE reactions! That doesn't mean you tell her that something doesn't hurt - that's dishonest. But that you don't react so strongly that it's better for her not to share with you. You are now her friend. Be that friend through the hardest time of BOTH of your lives. You will be tested, she will not trust you, over and over again you will prove yourself until eventually, it becomes real for her.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not to worry, I got my part down pat! I <B>am</B> being her friend, she <B>is</B> testing me, but I <B>am</B> handling it well (so far!).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I, too, see a lot of hope for this marriage. Just that fact that YOU recognize that she is a wonderful woman, not scum of the earth for this mistake, is the best sign of all. That has amazing power, trust me. Our hardest and first lesson toward healing is to separate the person from the deed.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks!<P>OK, guys, here's the "interesting" update I promised. As always, this will end in a question to you all .<P>We went to a co-worker's enagagement party yesterday after work. The W was friendly, none of the crying that I saw earlier. We had a good time at the party. On the way home, she got a little of her irritable tone back, and then she said something that blew me away. You may remember that when I told her I knew about the affair, in the conversation that followed I told her that I still want to fix our marriage, and I will do anything <B>she</B> wants to try to fix things, such as therapy, Harleys, priests, etc. I also mentioned the Retrouvaiile program. Well on the way home yesterday, she suddenly asked if I still want to do the Retrouvaille retreat weekend?! Granted, she said it in a somewhat irritated tone, but the fact that <B>she</B> brought it up without any prodding from me almost caused me to veer into oncoming traffic!<P>What do you guys make of this development? It seems to me that it's a good sign; it's not like I was pushing her and she agreed; she brought it up herself. Granted, I could argue that she just wants to do this so she can then rationalize to herself that she tried everything and now it's OK to go on with the divorce, but I think that's too pessimistic an outlook. I think it shows that she truly wants to try to get her feelings back. And frankly, if she can't, then we probably shouldn't stay married anyway...<P>OK, so what about it? Any experiences with Retrouvaille that you care to relay to me? Neither of us is religious, but they claimed that doesn't matter. Also, the weekend is not for another two months, which I think is actually good because it will give her time to get over the OM, and to start really thinking about our marriage.<P>So, what do you think?<P>Leon<P>PS, Mike: you're gonna be proud of me! I set up a session with Steve for Friday!!!!!!!!!!!! I told them to charge it to your account, if that's OK?? <P><p>[This message has been edited by Hurting Badly (edited August 30, 2000).]