JKE -
After reading your posts, I believe what you need is a starting point.

I don't believe you need plan A, or plan B. They are plans to end an active affair.

You need to follow the 4 rules for a successful marriage - and you need to start now.

After an A ends, even if the WS is remorseful it takes some time for the BS (Betrayed spouse - you) to get over the A. Sometimes it takes TOO long, and the Former Wayward Spouse (FWS) doesn't have enough grit to wait. I suggest you make a recovery plan and begin recovery, because it looks like you still wonder.

I believe you wonder IF it can be done, and also you are unsure about HOW to do it.

From reading your posts, I think you are in much better shape than many here. I am not talking about your emotional condition - which is always a mess, but I am speaking of your chances for recovery. It looks like the affair is over, and your W is remorseful. That is a really, really good start.

Remember that you could have walked away. You still can if you want, but you have chosen to work on your M. I commend you for that, but you need a battle plan, or you will continue to stall your own recovery.

Dr Harley has written much on this site to aid you, perhaps you have read most, or all of it. I will point you to some material, but I recommend you get his books - His needs, Her needs, and also Surviving An Affair. I believe these books would help you a great deal in formulating a plan of recovery.

Here is a good place to start -
Four rules for recovery

The four rules are about half way down the page, but reading the whole thing will give a good background (even though the example given is different than your situation.)

I hope you don't mind if I make some recommendations.

To start, you have to DO SOMETHING. You are talking to her, and then she feels bad - and you feel bad, but what you are not doing is getting out of the holding pattern of doubt, guilt, pain, and fear.

Start by making a plan to spend time with each other. 15 hours a week minimum. Watching TV, and other things where there is little interaction don't count. Observe the other rules while you are together. Decide in advance if there can be discussion about your relationship during whatever activity you are doing. You can talk about your dreams, your fears, your goals, and so on, but not always about what happened, and your feelings. Be creative - we discussed what we could do if someone gave us a billion dollars - ask her something off the wall like that. Talk about where you want to be in five years, (not YOU, yourself, YOU, the two of you - "Honey, where would you like to see us in 5 years."

Where do you want to live when you retire.
If you could build your dream home - where would it be, and what features would it have?

All these things are fun, but they also suggest a future together. She will pick up on that.

Read up on the other rules, and incorporate them into your plan. Protect her - ask her to protect you. Extend care to her - not doubt. Be positive.

Act like things are going to work. Pretend like they are. Can't you quit any time you want? Really, can't you? If you give a good effort for 6 months and you still have misgivings, can't you bail out? You have freedom to do whatever you want, and so why not give it your best effort while you think about it?

Mostly you need time to heal. It takes a long time - but you will notice a difference in 6 months, and by 18 months from now, you will feel so good you won't be able to remember some of these terrible feelings you have now.

Marriage can be a wonderful, beautiful experiance. Somehow I believe yours will be again. It will not be easy, and there will be times when you doubt, and perhaps even times when you want to quit, but make a plan, run that plan for a year - set that as a goal, and do the best you can for the duration of your plan.

Remember you are free - because you are. Realize you have choices - realize your choice to stay tells us something (and it tells you too) about what kind of person you are. Realize you can make this work - and begin.

The things you worry about - why she couldn't say no, how to get things out of your head - all these will work themselves out as you work your plan. Trust Dr Harley on this one, and start.

SS

<small>[ February 25, 2004, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS,
Thanks for writing and guiding me to those materials, I think that with both my wife and I actually wanting and needing things to get better following these guidelines and learning our most important emotional needs will really help.
Last night was the first night I told her about this site. I have had a hard time talking to her about this whole thing since I first learned of it and last night I told her how I felt and how it hurt me and why. I didn't get to really let all of my emotions out that I feel but we had some sort of connection after talking.
This is so hard, I love her though and I told her she should look at this site too because I think that it would help her.

Hi,
I am back on this forum after not being here awhile and was reading stories that somewhat deal with what i went through 2 yrs ago. For one thing,you NEVER really do forget what has happened to you,it's devestating like death! Some say to forgive and forget but i know it's hard. My husband had an affair here on our computer! It was the ''online affair' which is and can be more devestating than othe types of affairs. Feel free to write me back! I would like to have more pen pals to talk to:)

Amy

I am printing out all of the questionnares that Dr. Harley has posted on his site. I am thinking that tonight I will go home and make some popcorn and my wife and I will sit down and fill them out and then use the "floor" to talk about what we wrote down.
I asked her last night why she didn't say no, and she was silent for a good five minutes, I asked her if she was awake and she said yeah. She finally told me she didn't say no because she was drunk.
I don't know why but I rolled over and turned my back to her and then got my pillow and a blanket out of the linen closet and headed to the couch. She came into the living room and she let me talk for about ten minutes about why this is so hard for me.
I really wish that this had never happened but even though "resentment" and "anger" are often part of my life now, I feel that using this site and it's basic concepts can help us so much.
I'm looking forward to going home tonight and feeling these out, maybe we can really learn more about ourselves and the mystery that seems to surround our pasts will fall away.
I don't know if she has looked at this site yet or not, but I'm hoping that she will. I really miss being able to be myself with her, although she probably misses it much more.
I'll tell you our first year of marriage was really a pinnacle challenge for both of us with so many changes, so many new things and Lord, so much temptation.
The other night she had wrote down all of the numbers stored in her cell phone that we just turned off. I noticed guys numbers on it and she saw that I got a look in my eyes that didn't seem too happy about the numbers. To make a long story short, she blacked out the numbers. I was thinking the whole time that I guess it isn't her old friends I need to worry about, it's my friends, no my best friends, and then finally, no it's her. These are the kind of thoughts that I don't like having you know.
I just read on one of his articles that you should never trust your spouse because anyone can fall to temptation, so who do you trust? In the Bible, not sure of the verse but positive that it's found in II Corinthians, it says that love is patient, love is kind, and love is trusting (rough summary.) Trust is so hard and even harder now.
Well I've vented for the day I guess and hopefully, wish me luck please, when we fill out those questions tonight we will learn how to be better with each other.
Thanks for reading, and Dr. Harley, I have to thank you so much for all of the advice that you give so freely here on your site, I'm really thankful.

Hi again, I see you are still working things out in your mind. It takes a long time. Your feelings won't change in the next week or so - but you have to start recovery anyway. I am glad you are doing the questionnaires, it really helps. There are sometimes other factors - if you were to talk to one of the Marriage Builders counselors, you may be able to find out just why she did what she did - however, the way you are doing it may make things worse. Lets review some of what you said.

I asked her last night why she didn't say no, and she was silent for a good five minutes, I asked her if she was awake and she said yeah. She finally told me she didn't say no because she was drunk.

You want that answer really bad - in your heart you want her to come up with a reason - so that you can better cope with what happened. Hopefully it would be something to the effect that it was much more his fault that hers.

As for her, she doesn't know the reason, so she tries to figure it out. I can tell you from experience that this isn't where you want to go. Often it takes the course of her finding something she doesn't like about you - and giving that as the reason whether or not it is THE REAL REASON. It goes like this: You want a reason, but she doesn't know the reason, so she tries to think of one to make you happy. She believes the reason she thinks of, and sometimes it ( that manufactured reason) casts you in a bad light and makes recovery much more difficult.

She probably doesn't understand the WHY of this any more than an alcoholic understands why he or she can't refuse a drink. This may be something that she will be able to help you with later after both of you are:
1. In love again.
2. Fully recovered.
3. Well versed in MB methods -
and finally
4. When you both come to understand your selves much better than you do now.

I don't know why but I rolled over and turned my back to her and then got my pillow and a blanket out of the linen closet and headed to the couch. She came into the living room and she let me talk for about ten minutes about why this is so hard for me.

She is trying - but you are giving her a loose/loose situation.

You ask her a question, she gives you an answer - the best she can at the time, and you reject her. Loose/Loose. If she doesn't answer, she will get rejection, if she does, she gets rejected anyway.

If you want to recover, you need to protect her feelings too. I know - I understand your reaction to this.

The way you feel, she ought to crawl on the floor to you and beg your forgiveness.

The question to ask is this:
Do you want to punish her, or do you want to recover. If you want to recover, you have to start acting like it. Even though she is the one that strayed, you have to guide recovery. That may not be fair, but it is ofteh the way things are. If you want you can leave, but if you choose to stay, the best way to recover is to treat her with kindness and forgivness.


I really wish that this had never happened but even though "resentment" and "anger" are often part of my life now, I feel that using this site and it's basic concepts can help us so much. I'm looking forward to going home tonight and feeling these out, maybe we can really learn more about ourselves and the mystery that seems to surround our pasts will fall away.

You will continue to learn, and you will experience personal growth and she will also. I believe you will also experience relationship growth. Both of you will grow together. I began my journey here about two years ago by reading thousands of posts. I can tell you that what you read in the concepts section of this site will really work if you will live them, not just read about them. I have seen it here in the lives of thousands, and also in my own life.

Please back off from the questions FOR NOW. Wait until the feelings of being in love come back to both of you, and the feelings of hate, anger, doubt, and fear leave you, and the feelings of guilt leave her. She is repentant, she loves you, she has much guilt. You help her, she will help you. At the very worst, explain to her that your feelings won't let you be close sometimes, but that you feel that you will get over it. Ask her to help you when you have the bad times - if you feel the need to sleep on the couch, tell her you love her, and these feelings are temporary ( even if you don't believe it, say it anyway, and trust me on this one.) Tell her you believe you can work through this in time. Pretend you are doing better than you are. This has a basis in actual research. Marshall Goldsmith - who runs an executive coaching company has done research that shows that your attitude will change if you change your behavior. That is, if you act positive, sure of your recovery, sure of her love for you, your attitude (and many of these bad thoughts) will change. That is something you have to do for a time all by your self (OK, God will help too) by strength of will.

I don't know if she has looked at this site yet or not, but I'm hoping that she will. I really miss being able to be myself with her, although she probably misses it much more.

Act like the old you - the feelings will come back much more quickly if you will do this.


I'll tell you our first year of marriage was really a pinnacle challenge for both of us with so many changes, so many new things and Lord, so much temptation. The other night she had wrote down all of the numbers stored in her cell phone that we just turned off. I noticed guys numbers on it and she saw that I got a look in my eyes that didn't seem too happy about the numbers. To make a long story short, she blacked out the numbers. I was thinking the whole time that I guess it isn't her old friends I need to worry about, it's my friends, no my best friends, and then finally, no it's her. These are the kind of thoughts that I don't like having you know.

Marriage is difficult. The story goes that once there was a young girl who felt her home life was way too oppressive. She had a steady boy friend that she thought she loved, and she was overjoyed when he proposed. After she had accepted, and the boy had taken her home, she retired to her room and remarked to herself: "now I am at the end of all my troubles."
Her mother (walking down the hall) heard her remark, and said to herself: "yes, but which end."


When you get your drivers license, you receive training. When you get married you get none. We are in love, and we think nothing of it, but it is more difficult, and it is far more important. You are just now getting your training, and what you are learning - if you will both embrace it and use it - will transform your relationship into what you envisioned when you first made your vows.


I just read on one of his articles that you should never trust your spouse because anyone can fall to temptation, so who do you trust?

You put systems in place that ensure that an affair won't happen because of the system, not because of: "Oh, I trust her, so I don't worry about it. "
You both become accountable for your time. You both call when plans change, you don't have secret e-mail accts.. You do away with independent behavior (which is well covered in the book "Love Busters" and by the way, I recommend the books because they have done so much for us - this stuff really worked for us. You don't spend time alone with members of the opposite sex. You don't confide in others things that ought to remain between Husband and Wife. DR Harley coves these things well.


In the Bible, not sure of the verse but positive that it's found in II Corinthians, it says that love is patient, love is kind, and love is trusting (rough summary.)

Yes, this is exactly what I have been trying to get across. You need to act this way - pretend if you have to. This is your primer about how to recover. You don't feel this way, so you act like it until you do feel like it.

If you are a practicing Christian, you are bound by your beliefs to live as Christ would have you live, and he reserves revenge to himself - you and I get to forgive. You have an out for adultery, (you can divorce if you want) but the blessings are there for forgiveness if that is what you choose. The signs are there that your W loves you and wants to recover, so act patient, kind, and so on, and those feelings will come along as you continue to act as though you have them. As far as trusting - there are things you should trust. Trust her when she says she still loves you. She is there - she hasn't left. Trust when she says she wants to recover - but realize she doesn't know how, and don't hold that against her. Everyone makes mistakes (but this was way worse than a normal mistake, I know that) - it's what they do after the mistake that shows who they really are. It will show who she really is, and it will show what you are made of also.

Trust is so hard and even harder now.
Don't trust some things. DR Harley explains that better in his materials, so I won't go into details here, but you can look it up.

Well I've vented for the day I guess and hopefully, wish me luck please, when we fill out those questions tonight we will learn how to be better with each other.

For every hour you spend with her in relationship talks, spend at least one doing something you both ENJOY - riding a skateboard (just kidding?) or skiing, or listening to music, or playing checkers, or strolling down the mall, or riding a bike, or playing tennis, or - well, do the questionnaire for recreational activities - and you will know how to spend it, but alternate this relationship stuff with some relaxation and fun - I am telling you this from experience.

Thanks for reading,

You do know we care about you don't you? Ha, you think we get paid to do this?
Just teasing again. We want to see you happy and well adjusted though your mom says there may be a problem with this last part.
Ok, OK, I need to knock off the teasing.

I want to see you succeed. BOTH of you.

Let us know how this goes tonight - and YOU BETTER DO SOME FUN STUFF WITH HER TOO.

SS

PS, one more request. Please break up your posts into paragraphs like I did mine to you. It makes it much easier to read your post. - and thanks.

SS

Wow, I don't believe that anyone has ever analyzed and interpretted what I have said, typed, or otherwise that well in years. I am really thankful that you decided to post to my topic.

Last night was probably the first stepping stone in our way back up and I'll tell you that I think we both have a new found relief that I can't exactly put into words.

I decided that one of our problems was not knowing each others pasts well enough prior to getting married. Many things that had happened to us were never dicussed, mostly on her part.

There were looming questions eating me up especially after she confirmed my fear.

So, we took the Personal History Questionnare and filled it out together. Many things in there I had been suspicous of but never knew the truth or the circumstances. I realized that my wife was not the person she had led on to be, but rather an even greater person to have gone through things that she went through and then still choose me.

I discovered the truth behind our separation, the truth behind her mistake, and I discovered the truth behind myself as well.

It was just beautiful and truly lifted weight off of my shoulders and I'm sure hers as well.

I told her that there is nothing that she can't tell me and assured her that her honesty is more important to me than anything else because I believe that we can handle anything.

I can't discuss what was said but I just have to say that as a result of your post and the hyperlink you provided I actually read into and applied some of the basic concepts.

I thank God for sending this site, Dr. Harley, and you to me yesterday. I can't say enough how much last night helped. I know my faults in her eyes, I know the reasons behind her dramatic change, and we both know the foundation on which the rest of our marriage should be built.

Thank you so much for being so attentive and forthcoming.

Ironic that yesterday my wife received two job offers after being declined for every job she has looked for in the past 6 months. Ironic that the whole night we spoke as friends again. No, not irony but beauty.

God is blessing us now and to feel His strength is, well I can't come up with the words.

Thank you.

I thought that it would be appropriate to paste the e-mail I sent to my wife this morning within this forum, I want you to see how just one night of actually trying, being honest, and listening can change your entire outlook.


I just wanted to write you quickly this morning and tell you congrats on your job, well not only that but pretty much getting two calls in one day offering (mostly) positions. Thank you for doing that thing with me last night and for talking with me. Thank you for being honest about everything. You answered so many questions that I had been hiding inside that just wouldn’t go away, questions that I couldn’t ask in the right way. I feel like we have just been given a real opportunity to mold and shape our futures and as long as we’re always honest with each other that shouldn’t change.

I’m sorry that I have been such a challenge and that it felt like you had to change who you were to be with me. I’m sorry for the pain that caused you. I’m sorry for what has happened in your life that caused most of the stuff you mentioned last night and I regret not being able to be there for you when it happened because I am sure that I could have given you so much emotional and spiritual support that things could have been much different. I was not and they were not and now we live with an understanding I think of each other’s feelings, each other’s pasts, and I honestly believe now that we have nothing to fear.

I love you and I have been waiting to feel like this again. I know that it has been hard to be honest with me, I know that it’s hard being with me, but I feel like you now know that you can be honest with me no matter what, the reward for honesty is compassion and care, trust me.

You are beautiful, you’re a beautiful person, the things that you have been through may have sent you wayward down a destructive path but I assure you that you are in no way a bad person, your untrustworthiness is only your failure to trust yourself, I’m here though to help you and when you are faced with a situation that you don’t know the answer, you don’t know the right thing to do, I’m here for you to pick you up. You do not cause bad things to happen, you have been faced with so many challenges and so much pain in your young life.

Last night the weight of the world was lifted off of my shoulders, my mind was put to ease, and my spirits were lifted. In your answers I found the truth, in your tears I saw my flaws. I’m sorry for the pedestal that I tend to put you on and for the expectations that I myself have made for our marriage. I didn’t realize the responsibilities I had to your emotions, I thought as long as I treated you right, paid attention when you talked, and always said I love you that things would be on auto pilot. I’m sorry every thing rolled down hill while I was gone and ended up the way that it did, but now I hope that we can decide the fait of our marriage by deciding what our marriage is. I don’t want to lose you, and don’t want you to hurt anymore.

Our family is not my family or your family, our family is not the traditional American family, it’s our family, it’s our rules, it’s our decisions, and we may hit hard times again in the future, we may not always see eye to eye, but I’m going to tell you this, we will make it.

I’m looking forward to church, I’m looking forward to witnessing, I’m looking forward to loving, I’m looking forward to our future. I pray for you and I’m thankful for you.

I pray that God will continue to watch over you and cover you with a blanket of His love, that He will guide you when you stray, that He will keep you honest. I pray that He will heal your wounds, patch your heart, and let your eyes only shed tears of joy. I pray that He will bless our marriage, bless our friendship, and renew our faith in Him, the Son, and His Holy Spirit so that we may know there are no problems too big, no mistakes too awful, and no words too shameful with His forgiveness, our forgiveness for each other, and our forgiveness for ourselves.

I pray that God will give us the strength to always talk and work our way through our problems, that He will give us strength to live morally right, the He will bless us with His love, His gifts, and His presence from this day forth.

I pray that you will see that in me, there is nothing perfect, there is nothing great, there is only a man that loves you, a man that draws his strength from you. I pray that you will feel my love in each and everything that we do.

I pray that you will forgive me for all of the times I have let you down, that you will forgive me for the times I didn’t trust, for the insecurities that I have had, and for the fears that I pushed into our reality.

Lord, keep us safe, keep us happy, and keep us in love. Amen.



I love you more than I ever have today and I feel like our lives together have just begun. You have made me so happy and I’m so thankful that you chose me after everything that you have been through. I love you.

Have a good day baby and if you go to sleep, dream peacefully and know that each day is another day to earn our blessings.

Joseph

To me, I've never spoke anything more from the heart.

God is blessing us now and to feel His strength is, well I can't come up with the words.

God is very, very good at what he does. I believe I know what you mean.

I am thankful that things are looking up for both of you. It sounds much better already.

I warn you that some of the feelings of doubt, and pain WILL return from time to time. You have to catch the darkness that comes with that, and turn it to light. You have to act like things are better than they are - until the light returns. It will be very difficult at times. I want you to know in advance so you can mentally prepare.

Your letter to her is a beautiful thing. It tells me much about your chances - and I think they are good.

This is a long term thing. As the things you learn (meeting needs, avoiding LB's) become habbits, it will get easier. I have been married 27 years (ah, at least in two weeks it will be 27) and our feelings of love have never been stronger. I thought I was in love when I got married, but it is far better now than it was then. Communication is better, feelings are stonger, and even (blush, you know) is much beter. I never thought things could be THIS good. It is one of the few times in my life when the actual result is much better than the anticipation.

I wish this for you also. Let us know how things go. I read some of your last post to my W when she came by a few minutes ago, and she says she "hopes things continue to get better and better for you."

God be with you.

SS

<small>[ February 27, 2004, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>