Oops, what I meant to say was I would probably start posting in the plan A/plan B section.....after this morning, recovery seems quite far away. H is SO angry....and I told him I would give him space, and I have been. But then he will come up to me and just stand there, and I'll ask if he wants to talk, and he will look at me, and then say " No there's no point. I'm staying, you got what you wanted" and go away again.

I told him that we both deserve better, and I will continue to work with my "chat group" (he is getting more and more dismissive--threatened--by what I'm doing here, even though I have told him he can read whatever I write. No secrets on my part.). He left this morning, and told me that he would be back tonight --I don;t have anywhere else to go--that's what he said.

Oh, I am angry. I didn't expect him to come running back to me, but the daily hostility is just wearing me down. I can't sleep, I can't eat.....and I can't take time out for me because of the kids (since my husband leaves at 7 am and doesn't come home until 7 pm....and the kids are in bed by 8 pm....what to do?)

Sorry, major whining here. I'm not sure I really adhered to plan A this morning....it was really hard to hide my frustration.

cciyer,

I'm in Houston if you ever want to make a day trip. Maybe we could meet in the middle? In July I'm attending the SmartMarriage Conference in Dallas as part of my certification process.

I know you think you're doing badly...but I can promise you that you are not. I've seen bad LOL. Alot of these things tend to turn into Jerry Springer events.

But just for a second...let's talk about responsibility. Your H is quite right that you are partially responsible for the vulnerability of your marriage to an affair. But guess what....he is 100% responsible for the affair itself. No matter what you did or did not do over the course of your marriage. No matter how sad and isolated he was....there were many many ways he could have dealt with those feelings besides choosing the most devastating and selfish choice he could make. Here's a few of the ethical and moral ways he could have addressed his feelings:

*communicate honestly about how lonely he was feeling and give you an opportunity to reach out to him.

*communicate honestly that he found himself attracted to other women and give you the opportunity to meet his needs.

*suggest marriage counseling and talk about his alienation there.

*get individual counseling to discuss his sadness.

*end the marriage BEFORE beginning a relationship with someone else.

*go on a retrouvaille weekend and try and reconnect with you.

*talk to a clergyman and renew his faith in God and his commitment to marriage, then work with you as a team to rebuild your marriage.

*he could have honored his hypocratic oath, and his marital vows and resisted temptation with strength and resolve even though he was lonely.

He chose to do none of these....and THAT my dear is NOT your responsibility.

When he says that "you got your way"....it's perfectly fine to tell him that you have no intention of forcing him to pursue "your way". That YOU are committed to rebuilding the marriage, and that you are hoping he will make the CHOICE to do the same...but that you can only control your own actions...not his.

As far as exposure goes, I do understand the complications of that...my dad is a surgeon who had an affair with one of his nurses....he's married to her now BTW. Exposing this to his family will not put his career in jeopardy. If you find that he cannot end the affair in the near future....consider a limited exposure that protects his career...but don't rule it out.

*hugs*

Thanks star*fish; please do let me know when you're in Dallas, because I would love to meet you. Day trips are a bit hard now because of the kids...however, I will be in Houston at the beginning of next year for an academic conference of my own...we should definitely hook up!

I can't help but hope that he sees me again....right now, he's grieving too, and not just for the loss of OW but for what he perceives as the loss of everything. He has told me in the past that I am emotionally isolated, not just from him, but from everyone. And he was right....but sadly, even though he's the more "outgoing" of the two of us, I think he is just as isolated. Maybe even more than me right now....

You have given me a lot of hope...and I'm thrilled to hear that you're in my state!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm glad you are still posting. You are doing remarkably well! I hung out in the Plan A/B forum, as well.

Unfortunately, BS' have to endure so much during Plan A. WS will be very angry, but he needs to feel that to move forward.

Next time, when he is standing there, tell him a story from your past. Maybe when one of your babies were born or a fun vacation you took. This is the time to show him your beautiful, positive personality.

My FWS thought MB bashed the WS, too, but I would relate things I read from WS', so that he knew that I'm aware of both sides.

I have a question: does WS really want space? My FWS craves attention and emotional intimacy. He was *not* looking for space. What about your WS?

I just want to warn you that FWS also tried NC about 2 months before the A ended. In my gut, I knew he was not ready and I didn't take full advantage of the situation (Plan A to the hilt). NC lasted a whole week and the A was back on.

Even though, the A didn't end at that time, I think just trying NC gnaws at the OW. And just like this waffling is making you think he is trying to let you down gently, in the back of her mind, she is wondering why WS doesn't just leave. Your M is supposed to be so horrible, right? This has a negative effect on their relationship, too -- don't worry.

So, does WS let you fulfill any of his ENs? My FWS was easy in that respect. He would let me to do that to my heart's content -- I was just out of practice.

Have you looked into IC? If he thinks you are emotionally isolated, perhaps getting into counseling will show him that you are willing to work on it.

Do you have family or a friend that can watch the kids for a couple of hours? You really need to start taking time for you.

I just want to let you know that this system does work! It takes alot of work on both sides, but you just have to have faith that you can recover your M.

Hi lbc--Good to hear from you! I'm so tired and brain-dead today that I don't know how much I can write (in fact, I have had to retype this sentence about 5 times because of all the typos!) You asked me if WH really wants space....it's very strange because there are times he seems really eager to talk and then he very abruptly shifts into "get away" mode. Any reminders or memories of pleasant times in our marriage make him very defensive right now (he sees it as manipulative) so I'm going easy on those. You bring up a very good point about the affair...in all honesty I don't think its over. I think, at least from the way WH is acting, that they were both realistic in that they knew it would end, but I still haven't heard the real statement of NC from WH. Until then, I can't believe it's really over.

I hope you understood all that (I'm not sure I did!). Today was very frustrating--WH came home and just focused on our daughter . Didn't interact with the baby, and most certainly didn't interact with me. I was trying my best to do plan A, but I was/am so tired it probably didn't come off too sincere. And then, at 8:00, he tells me he is going to bed because he is exhausted. So....I put both kids down, and make the bottles for the baby. I have had less sleep than he has, because I had to get an hour earlier than he did to get the baby. I'm going on 2 hours of sleep today.....and that probably explains why I'm somewhat struggling with plan A.

He's here, but he's not. Just take it day by day....I'm drifting here...so very very tired today. Take care to all.

cc,

I would recommend the GQII board rather than the A/B board. More traffic, more vets, better information...lots of folks in Plan A/B but much faster response time. Look for ark, orchid, pepperband, toomuchcoffeeman, isgirl, justlearning, worthatry and others.

There is also another board worth visiting too: http://saveyourmarriagecentral.info...4008616&u=235000936&rc=683786511

Lots of vets on that board....quite a few people post on mb and symc too. Look for the folks there who have symc after their names....that means they are trained and have demonstrated a knowledge of the concepts.

((((((((((hugs cc))))))))))))))

You're doing fine....get some rest!

Your situation sounds a lot like mine. I just found out about my H A two weeks ago. He is telling me the same thing your husband is telling you. She "gets me". I told him he didn't know what he was talking about. There is no way she could get him only knowing him for a couple of weeks. We spoke to our Pastor about our situation and he responded that my H was in "puppy love". They see no wrong in each other right now... but that will change. Hang in there I know that it is tough. I too go through period of anger of just not understanding his logic. This morning H told me that he loved me for the first time in over a week after yesterday telling me that he had no hope for our future. Him juggling me and OW is confussing but I truly believe that for my children and our marriage it is worth it.

Thanks for the advice, star*fish and I'll check out those boards you recommended....I need all that I can get because I blew it this morning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I apparently need courses in anger management as well.....he tells me that I have no right to place any demands on him, and that he "needs time to heal"...and also explore whether this situation is best for him. He said that the idea that marriage is a committment to work through "good times and bad" was unrealistic and unfair, and would doom him to a lifetime of unhappiness. Oh dear, I completely lost it--really really blew it. I walked right into the trap....sigh...I did apologize for the anger (not my feelings, just the way I expressed them).

I know it is too early to give up, but all I feel now is an overwhelming urge to let OW have him. Stop the daily ritual of hostility and sadness. Says he wants me to show him more emotional connection, but won't let me near him; to him the only way I can show/prove that connection is to let him "explore" the relationship with OW.

I think what I really need to do is to stay quiet--I'll communicate my feelings, but I think maybe I reserve my real introspection for this board! My kids deserve a mom who isn't psycho....(not that you all deserve a poster who IS psycho...well you know what I mean!)

It's funny--he is so dismissive of this board....says it's easy to be honest when you're anonymous. I don't really WANT to be anonymous with you all....he's still in fogland. And the book....I found it in the library and I''m reading it...at work. WH reaction to this book was "well, don't leave it on the coffee table!" ( No, I think I'll frame the cover and hang it on our door.--good grief, sorry, that was a snide, very anti-plan A comment and I do apologize! I am losing my mind...)

He is seeing her tonight. Again. At least he tells me (or maybe that's not a good thing....) Ok, here I go. Plan A, again. Back to square one. Clearly, I have much to learn too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cciyer:
<strong> ....I need all that I can get because I blew it this morning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I apparently need courses in anger management as well.....he tells me that I have no right to place any demands on him, and that he "needs time to heal"...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heee heee! LOL with that! I would have probably blown off my top too! Anger management? It is called stupid patrol. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I understand what you are feeling. Longs hard walks help! It was recommended that I go back and take Pilates. It really helps when your SP. says something off the wall like that. But try to remember that he is not "with it". He is trying to make you take all the blame to ease his guilt. Justifing his behavior. And as much as you like to bash them over the head, you need to tell yourself he is lost in his own fantasy land!

I have never been on that other forum myself. Maybe I can get some good advice.

Keep posting and good luck!

Ali.

By the way, you might feel psycho! But you're not!
What you are going through is all so normal. I wish I had found this forum when H. was cheating.

Plan A. can be a loooooong process. Don't give yourself time limits and expectantices. It will only frustrate you more.

OK I am sooo tired that I have no idea what I am posting! Good night.

ali x2

So nice to hear from you Ali! well, I think I'm back in Plan A....I think i went through some self-delusion over the past two days....agreeing to terms in panic (ie if I do what he wants me to, he will come back). I woke up this morning feeling so personally dishonest....and so, much to his dismay, I reiterated my line--working towards change TOGETHER is my goal, but it cannot happen when there is a third party involved.

I don't think plan A is about being a doormat; how can I work to change the problems of this marriage if I cannot acknowledge fundamental attributes about myself? My concept of a marriage relationship involves a very definite level of commitment--one that I have not given, and I know that. But it seems crazy to say " Well, I
didn't do it before, and so now, I don't DESERVE to ever have it again" If I enter into an "open" relationship/marriage, I am not just ignoring but rejecting my own concept of what this relationship is SUPPOSED to be, not what it has (or, hasn't) been in the past.

So I said this...and he has gone back to his position that I'm not giving him space, time etc. But at least for me, saying this with conviction has removed so much anger --anger I think wasn't really directed at him but at myself, for not being true to me--and I'm ironically able to interact with him with much more warmth than I have in the past few days. I'm not saying there won't be more anger , but I'm staying with some principles....WH feels those priniciples are restrictive and stifling. I told him that I'm not going to say it again, that now he knows, and that I would like to join the world of the living again! Of course, I'd like him to join me too....me not eating and not sleeping seem to be counter-productive to any type of growth and development....

We're (both of us) are taking our daughter to the zoo today....my mother is staying with us for a couple of weeks (boy is THAT awkward---I know she knows something's not right, but in a weird way her presence is making us behave!) and will watch the little boy. The old me would have made up some excuse to avoid being with him, and I ALMOST used the same excuse again, but then I decided against it.....let him see the family we SHOULD be. Wish me luck!

BTW, question for star*fish that is not related to this: Are you a marriage counselor by profession? You had mentioned a conference in Dallas, and I was just wondering what your professional background was....

cc: you mentined earlier that youmiht want to confront the OP. If you do: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A word about confronting the OP, when a WS is unwilling to end an affair on their own, because this question comes up a lot, and many people advise that you avoid confronting the OP, because discussions between BS’s and OP’s tend to be unhelpful and painful for the BS. I do not suggest having much of a discussion. I DO suggest confronting the OP, and also informing the OP’s spouse or girlfriend or boyfriend of what you know, if they have one. If the OP’s spouse/friend is likely to be violent, you may want to hold off on that exposure, but that is the only exception I know of, other than a message from God.

The confrontation of the OP is fairly important, and should be worded carefully. Given the emotional state you are probably in right after you learn of an affair, that usually means doing it by letter or email, or maybe a phone call. I do not recommend direct confrontations because of the strong temptation you may have to become physically violent.

Whatever method you use to communicate, say something like: “I love [spouse], and am trying to fix what is wrong with our marriage. I believe your relationship with [spouse] is interfering with our efforts to fix our marriage, and I would appreciate it if you would cease all contact with [spouse].” If you are CERTAIN it is a physical affair, you can use the word “affair”, instead of “relationship”. If you have children, you may also say that the OP is contributing to the destruction of a family.

They may laugh at you, but it is important to send that message, respectfully, for several reasons:

1. Because the OP may not know the WS is married. If that is the case, confronting the OP sometimes leads immediately to the end of the affair.
2. Because WS’s usually (almost always?) depict their spouse in a negative way to the OP. They say things like: “My wife doesn’t understand me” or “My husband won’t talk to me”, “My spouse is unconcerned about me and/or our marriage” or “We have an open relationship”, or something worse – you are crazy, controlling, cruel, etc. So, you need to confront the OP in a way that shows you at your best – not crazy, not unconcerned, not controlling, not angry, but rather calm, kind, purposeful, determined and concerned for your spouse and your relationship with them. When you do that, it introduces conflict into their relationship, because there is a conflict between what the OP experiences, and what they have been told.
3. Many WS’s and OP’s minimize the seriousness of their affairs with rationalizations like: “It’s only physical”, or, in the case of an Emotional Affair, “It’s just a close friendship” and “It’s not physical.” The language I have suggested avoids giving them a point to argue, and simply says it is hurting you.
4. In most cases, affairs grow in secret, and they die when exposed.


Remember that affairs are addictions. What happens when you try to take away an addict's fix? Frequently, they get angry. It is fairly common for a WS to get EXTREMELY angry when you expose their affair and confront the OP, and accuse you of trying to destroy them and your marriage and of being a horrible human being, so be prepared for an angry response. It is not a lovebuster, it is fighting for your marriage. You are doing nothing horrible. They are. You are fighting to save your marriage. They are destroying it. You are telling the truth. They are being deceitful. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Ohh...I don't know what I'm doing anymore. Held my position firm (on not having a third party or an "open" marriage), and now he's avoiding me.....can't even do plan A b/c he won't talk to me.

I am lost.

Talked again this morning....he says he has made a decision--to stay with his family "even though he loves OW". He spent the day yesterday with a mutual (male) friend, and told him of the problems that we (I) have had with intimacy--but left out the fact he had had an EA before this....our friends' advice was "to move on with OW while the kids were still small." Some friend.

I'm numb--I'm losing friends as well as WH. I work with this mutual friend, and today HE is giving me the cold shoulder....and I am now wise enough to not really believe WH when he says he will stay, because he still will not do NC. He has told me that he will tell OW this on Wed, and then "let her push me out of her life". This is not over yet...I guess I have fallen (if that were even possible) down to the level of emotional coldness and asexual freak....

I'm still doing plan A...I still feel that to go back to what was going on is deadly to me. It just seems that with each day, I lose more.

You're doing very well, but keep working on avoiding the LBs. You can't LB -- ever. One part of Plan A is find an acceptable way to express your hurt feelings. Screaming and making disrepectful judgements is not the way to do it. When WS returns to the M, you will need these skills.

You don't know it, yet, but everything you are going through is a *normal* part of the journey/recovery. Just last night, we did something different after an argument. We sat down and talked about it. You wonder how you will be able to change, but the more you implement the principles, the more chance it has of actually sinking in. Eventually, you will turn to better ways of communicating.

Don't worry about what so-called friends are telling WS. It's nothing he hasn't thought himself. I even told FWS that he should go with OW.

Is he willing to go to MC? What about Retrouvaille? You need a way to keep hope alive. These helped me.

Too bad about your friend. I know alot of people don't want to be in the middle. They don't know how to be just a friend. Try someone else or just talk to us.

Wow, I remember talking/thinking the same thing about having an open relationship, but that lasted about 5 seconds. We grew up in a culture that believes a relationship should be monogamous. It would be very hard to be okay with anything else.

If he doesn't want to talk with you, that's okay. Just try to do nice things for him. Cook his meals, put his clothes out, offer him a drink, etc. Just do whatever you do in a loving way.

I never did confront the OW, although I had her name, address, and phone numbers. FWS didn't even know her address. I was afraid of hearing something hurtful. My imagination was doing a pretty good job, I didn't need anything verified. Also, during that time, I really thought something weird would happen, like we'd end up friends. I don't believe that now, but that's what I thought then.

Oh, plan A and being a doormat does not mean agreeing to an open relationship. BS' usually feel like doormats cuz we are being nice to someone who is usually being indifferent to us (if not downright hostile).

How was the zoo? That is exactly the kinds of things you should be doing. Show him the family life he would be missing out on.

My MIL spent a week with us during FWS' A. She was a godsend. My FIL had an A a couple of years ago. When I questioned continuing with Plan A, she convinced me to try a little while longer.

I know having your mom there will help just in terms of the babies. Try to carve out some time for just you and WS.

Do leave SAA out when your mom leaves. I was surprised that FWS actually opened it.

CC: have you read what Harley has to say about vaginismus? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5049a_qa.html

Thanks for the responses....lbc, I'm working HARD on plan A; it's hard when the other party doesn't respond, or even worse, accuses me of playing a game with him. For the past week I have let everything around the house slide, so I think I am going to focus on that, and since he is definitely more of a neat freak than me, maybe that will at least show that I am thinking of him. And making dinner, etc....

The issue with our friend is tricky since I work with him (his office is right next to mine). It's got to be awkward for him, and I can't tell if he just feels sorry for me or blames me for this mess. ANd I know I should leave him out of it, but I have no friends right now, save for my wonderful colleague....It's just hard to think that I have lost yet another person from my life.

I know I have to wait....and that maybe nothing will ever change his feelings of anger and resentment for "lost years"....it's a hard prospect to look forward to, that we may just spend the next how ever many years in this distance, and that he may never let me in again. I played a big part in getting us there, and I have to accept that may be the consequence.

To john--yes, I have read those posts....the problem was that WH really wanted to have kids, so we made a huge mistake; we forced it, solely to have children. And the problem I had never got resolved; it only got worse, that I associated ANY physical contact (hugs, etc) with the pain I felt....I dont know how many doctors I spoke to about this, and most acknowledged it was a problem, but never had the time to really spend with me to figure out ways to deal with it. And WH really saw it as "my problem"--that if I really loved him, it would go away. So there went love, affection, everything--I did not feel safe with him at all.

Well, enough moping for today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thanks for listening, and I'm sorry I keep posting....it;s the only thing that keeps me even keel these days.

Hi CC!

John39 always has wonderful posts! I have taken a lot of his advice from other threads. I would definitely take in consideration about confronting the OW. If she knows that you know, it will make it less of a fantasy for both of them. But if you do decide to confront her please keep in mind that she might think it is a competition. My H. OW thought of me like that. She got extremely jealous when I was in town and she put on the seduction act. Wrote some pretty hot x-rated e-mails to My H. about what she is going to do too him once I was gone! So, Keep it simple and to the point! And be firm with a no nonsense approach.

As for your coworker? If you don't trust him or feel uneasy about him, I would keep your relationship simple. Less is best until you can get grips on this! You may say something and regret it later! I am assuming this is the mutual friend? I know you need someone and I completely understand where you are coming from. I had a large group of friends and I isolated myself and lost contact with them because I was so messed up. Right now, you are in a fog too. I remember this time last year, I didn't know if I was coming or going. It was bad. Kinda like the feeling when you stare off into space when you are tired. You are aware of what is around you but not in it. Does that make sense?

Did you ever think about going to IC? A therapist will help. I need one twice a week. My H. and I had a session tonight and I think it was the most decent one that we had since we started our counseling. Could there be hope???? But anyway, this is something that you cannot handle alone. You need the extra support because it feels....scary!
I know plan A. is long drawn out process. I can't say I have been there but I know. It's the patience that comes along with plan A. that is the key. After you did gesture of plan A. can you journal it? This will help you see the changes in you too. Then you can go back and say; "Well a year ago I would have done this in this situation but now? I am doing this". It will become more real and soon no matter what the outcome is, you just made yourself better!
Let me know if that sound like a plan?

Ali

Sorry mind is all over the place, but your H. is going to question every motive. But I did want to add...do nice things that you would like to do for your h. that you could see yourself doing still in about 70 years from now! Don't do things that you aren't normally comfortable with. For insistance, I hate laundry, So if I pick a general area that I'd do something nice for him in plan A. I wouldn't pick the laundry. Because I would end up being hostile in the end. Then he will definitely feel some deception going on and think it was a game! If you don't like cooking, ask him for his company while you cook. Do it together! Get my drift! We want you to do it right! Not things that might feel like a huge chore for you.

OK nuff, I need sleep! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Good luck to you.

Ali x2

PLease help....told me that OW is probably going to break it off this week....but that his first A has been ongoing all this time (10 years +)....and was with a man...and was physical. Said I pushed him to this because of the physical issue, not because he is confused about sexual orientation. Said he was going to break that off too.

I can't even cry--so many lies, so little responsibility. I'm trying to see where and how I contributed to this, but I don't think I did all this singlehandedly....and if I did, it would be better off if I were dead.

I know to some of you out there it would matter whether it was a man or woman, but to me it is the same....he told me the OW is "taking the decision out of his hands so he doesn't have to make it".

And the blame is on me.....if that is the kind of person I am....I didn't do this, please all of you believe me....I admit to a whole lot of awful mistakes but I did't make him do all of this, I didn't make him lie all of these years....I still want him here--he is my kids father.

I've been tested for STD's during my pregnancies, and I was negative....guess I have to think of that can of worms now....and the OW knew about all of this too.

Please help.