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I have never written to a group like this. Two nights ago my husband told me that he had lied to me --he wasn't working late but was out with another woman. He said he was tired of my emotional coldness and now the ball was in my court. We have two small children, and I am at a loss as to what to do. We talked (and ranted and raved) and got to some point of reconciliation, but when I opened my email today (my husband and I share an account), he had left a letter to his friend open where he described that we were "ok" but that he still dreams of a future with this other woman. I am so numb and drained....any advice or just anything at all would be welcome.

Hi and Welcome to MB.

First I know the numbness. Now is the time to purchase the book surving an affair. by Dr. Harley.
I hate playing devils advocate but, if he is complaining that you are cold emotionally, then he is really craving some sort of attention. He is wrong to what he is doing. Totally wrong. People that have affairs are immature. Can't come to the spouse's and tell us what is going on. Some seek adventure, while some are seeking flase security. But he is wrong no matter what the case may be.
Having 2 small children in the house is hard. I have two myself. And our attention as mothers are more focused on them and we tend to put our H. emotional needs aside.
A lot of men need the same nurturing as are children do. We have a tough roll as Mom's because we have to share and give and give and give. Not saying that men don't give back. But we as women play a different roll. And we cannot neglact our husbands.
In the book, Dr. Harley talks about plan A. You have the classic case where I am 100% positive plan A. will work. You need to find a therapist for both of you. And you both need to start communicating what you need in your marriage. He has already stated that you need to give him more of yourself. Since I don't know the whole story, I can only give you advice from what you shared. Figure out why you are being so cold? But I highly recommend that book.
Going through this experience is going to be hard and you need more support.I think right now he is craving the attention and this other women is just a cushion. He has no idea what he is talking about with wanting to spend the rest of his life with this OW. He is living in fantasy land. No kids, bills, etc. He hasn't seen what's to come. My husband said the same thing and mourned her when she dumped him. Nice to feel like he was in college again.
What ever you do, don't self medicate, don't say things that will make you look bad. Sarcasm right now is the worst for your marriage.
Go right now and purchase that book! I can't tell you enough to purchase it. Start to plan A. which is in that book. Sit down with him and tell him what you need and listen to him on his needs. Emotional security is what binds a marriage together.
Ali

Thank you so very much for responding. Your advice was straight on ( do you know me? :-) ). It's a rather long story but the gist of it is that we have struggled with intimacy issues for a very long time. There was a previous affair prior to our getting married, and so there were some issues of trust (or lack of it) even before we started. Physically, I struggle with sexual intimacy as I have a condition called vaginismus (makes intercourse very painful). So you can imagine how this has played havoc with us (we have been married for 8 years, and been together for 17 years). And the kids, and the work....I did withdraw, because I simply didn't know how else to deal,and I know that this was VERY VERY wrong. I did try seeking medical help for the physical issue, but I really needed him to join with me, and his response has been that this was my issue to solve. (BTW, he is a physician! ). We're trying our best for our kids, and I know this is just the beginning of a roller coaster, but reading the information on this site and hearing your words makes me feel a bit less isolated, and again, I thank you. I suspect he and I have been indulging in "love Busters" far too long.....a question for you all out there, though. I have told him that reconciliation would be very difficult for me if he maintained contact with this other woman. He maintains that "nothing happened" and that he values the friendship and doesn't want to let it go. What do I do? I don't want to derail this process, but the idea of the "friendship" provokes such despair in me....again, there are those of you out there who probably feel I asked for this, and you may be right.

Please write more....

Click on the link in my signature line. If we can do it, you can too.

Hi!
Well, I think that this can be resolved. As far as the affair before the marriage, was that resolved and did he say why he did it? Did you trust him? That must be dealt with now. As a person on TV mentioned, the key to future behavior is past behavior. I strongly believe that is true.

As far as your intimancy issue. That can be fixed with out patient surgery. But before going to get that "fixed", I would highly recommend getting back your emotional intimacy back first.

Be extremely careful. Your husbands relationship is in high jeopardy of becoming a physical one. Make sure you keep her close and know where he is at all times. Start plan A'ing. Do it now! Emotional affairs are just as painful as PA. My H. had both in one women. I would tell him straight out that you are affraid. Be honest with your feelings. He needs to know this. Tell him you would like to get help and that the imtimacy issue is bringing you down and causing you to push him away. But tell him in from your heart that you don't mean to do it that you want the closness. If communication is missing on your end, he will go off with this other women. Just think how we are if "something" is missing from our marriage. Not saying we would go off and have an affair. But we would be lonely. And he might be feeling that way.
Ohhh, I hate to add this. But are you sure he didn't sleep with her? You need to get in his way off her. Get in between them. Stop by for lunch unexpectedly. And please poor your heart and apologize (gulp) to him. I bet he is feeling lonely and not sure where to go.
I hope I did not sound like this is your fault. But you did mention that you have been pusing him away. And I am so glad you came on here before something really ugly has happened.
Do you have the book "Surving an Afair"? Then you know about plan A'ing?
Unfortuately that wasn't my case. Plan A couldn't work on my end. Gee, I always planed A him! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
My husbands own self esteem was the cause. He took a job out of state after many job loses and and his self esteem was lost completely. Know matter what I said to him, he never believed me. I have been with my husband for 16 years married 8 and dated 8 years before we got married. So sadley, hearing my words of encouragement just rolled off his back. I was unable to join him because of many reasons. We had to wait a least a year to make sure he was stable enough to move the family. Did that once before and lost lots of $$$. So we did not want to make the same mistake again. Our youngest son was going to have major surgery so I needed also to be home for his post-ops. He was running around getting his ego stroked by this thing that she calls herself human. She new he was married and seduced him anyway. Our oldest was dianosed with Autism as well. So while I am back on the home front, taking care of the kids, house, bills and all the other things that parents do, I was feeling pretty lonely myself. He was having a wonderful time and forgetting all about me. I was sending him cards, cookies. letting him know how much I loved him and missed him and telling him how brave he is. Nope didn't care.
So, that is why plan A didn't work for me. In reality, I should have been the one to have an affair. But loyal me believed in our marriage and sinced we have been through so much, I thought we could handle a little distance!
So I desperately urge you to plan A. Communicate with him. I bet once you show your concern and worries, he will come back. Just open up!
I have read many books and try to get enough information as possible so I can better understand to why it happened. To this day, a little over a year ago, I still don't know why he did it. Expect selfish reason's I guess! There is a new book out there written by Suzy Farbsman. I was on the Oprah show and we discussed her book. She will give you a side that is not from a Doctor's or therapist side of view but from a person's just like you and me point of view. I am going to Barnes and Noble to purchase it. I am very curious to what she has to say. I do believe she said that the reason why her husband had an affair was because she put her life (career) first!

Keep us posted. I really believe this will be a success story if you follow through.

Ali <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now hop to it!!!

Sorry for all my typo's. My kids are in here and it is hard for me to concentrate.

Start practicing. I really believe you can do it!

Ali <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Whoops!

Forgot! I agree 100%. He needs to stop the relationship with this other women. If you make it "cozy" for him to come home to each night, and give him his emotional needs, he will stop. Do what ever it takes. But becareful! Because you can over do it and you want it to be genuine. As soon as you get a peaceful moment in your house, tell him there is something you need to share with him. Then open up your feelings to him!

OK I think I wore you out!
Ali

Must warn you--VERY long post (sorry)
Your kind words of advice are all that is keeping me going at this point. Right now we are dealing with anger--mostly his at me. He keeps saying that I still don't really understand his pain and feelings of isolation, and that he isn't really ready to believe that I am willing to change. He also cannot let go of the OW (is that the right abbreviation? I am learning the lingo here) ...we go through periods where he seems genuinely interested in having us be closer followed by periods of fury (his) and anger and pushing me away. All I can do is try to put the advice you all have given me, and wait for him. I reiterated my concern that his continued contact with OW was not helpful here, and he just bristled and told me that I had no right to be angry about it since I am the one who pushed him into the situation. I am learning though; I didn't explode at him, but simply told him I heard what he said, but that I stood firm on this. I honestly don't know what he is going to do.

One of you asked if they had slept together; he tells me that they have not. (DO I believe him.....God help me, I don't know) To be honest, I'm not sure if that really matters--although from a health perspective it might.

I'm sorry--I'm rambling here. He says he needs his space, and I am trying hard to respect that; it's just so hard to maintain the "face" with our friends who don't know. He has repeatedly said that he is working with me for the sake of our kids, and I cling to that as the only thread of hope--actually, I take that back; he did also agree to go to marriage counseling, and I guess if this were truly far gone, he would not have agreed.

You know, I can deal with the anger and the rage; it's the OW that complicates my feelings of how I work through this with him. How do I maintain this plan when I know she's still in his heart--and he is so "ambivalent" (his exact words) about even wanting to work through? I have not yet bought the book you all recommend so well, but I have read everything I can at this site, and I'm trying to implement that.

Where did my emotional isolation come from? I think it started with the first affair (we weren't married at the time--I'm not sure it was an affair but it certainly felt like it). At the time, he told me the same thing--that I had driven him to do this (we were living in separate cities because we were in graduate school in different places) and that I didn't have any right to be upset. I think that I felt that ANY expression of my emotions was not valid and I felt very insecure with the one that was supposed to be my soulmate--the one I supposedly could tell anything to. I'm not justifying my behavior, but I'm searching for ways to understand what went so wrong. When the first child was born (She is 3.5 yrs, my son is 10 months old) I remember how overwhelmed I was--and he wasn't there. He left the room at night since his job required that he have uninterrupted sleep, and I learned--alone--how to care for my baby. When I bring this up, he bristles and says he was supporting me in other ways--and he does do a lot of housework--and yet what I really needed was for him to help me learn how to be a mom. I did tell him that, but I guess I never communicated it properly, and that hurt is still very real.

So we are both hurting....I can only hope that it leads to some better understanding for both of us, whether we stay together or not. Thanks for listening.

Welcome to marriagebuilders. It is a great place to be under the circumstances. Luckily you found this site early, that is very good.

You will be completely shocked and miserable for now, but things can be better. I spent the first couple weeks not believing it could happen in our marriage.

Start in Plan A. You can read all about it here under the thread "General Welcome for All New Builders".

First of all, Happy Mother's Day! I know that Ali has mentioned she has two kids; I hope you are having a wonderful day with them. I am working diligently on "plan A", although I must admit I woke up this morning so angry, that the LAST thing I wanted to do was to be civil to him. So, I came to this web site, and read (lurked) around, and came across this idea in someone's signature line (my apologies, I don't know the person's ID!)--the idea was that you came to this site not to change your spouse, but YOURSELF. Helped me get my equilibrium back, and made it easier to put the plan back into practice.

One day (hour?) at a time....enjoy the day with your children, and know that the care you have shown to this complete stranger means the world.

That is from starfish. And it is true! I came here to have my WH change, but I was the one who changed. Wow, I was surprised. It just happened little by little.

At first you will not believe it can happen, but it does. Your days will be good again.

Thank you and you too!

First no way is this your fault! You did not drive him there. He made a choice. Life is full of choices. And unfortunately he made the wrong choice. He could have came to you many times and said that he feels isolated. But he didn't. Somewhere along the way, communication was lost.
He knew what he was doing. A lot of the time the WS will blame the BS' for their own actions. It eases their guilt.
Ohhhh, do I know anger. As a matter of fact, The Oprah show opens up with my video with me saying how angry I am. Yes, I opened the show! Just great. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I had some horrible triggers yesterday and I still have so many questions. And I am still so anger to what he did to me. I am not sure how to get past the anger part. I am dealing with it day to day. Some days are fine and other days, I want to send him to the moon and never see him again except with a telescope to see he is living an isolated life like me! Cold and lonely!

Plan A. is about changing ourselves and the behavior that caused us to be in this postition. Again, I could not plan A. because my situation was different. But it so true. It can make you stronger!!!! Keep on doing it. Stay strong for your kids. By the way, I am a strong believer in this. Kids feel the stress that we go through. By staying in a marriage for the sake of our kids will give them a false sense of security. They will feel the tension and we will role model what they think a relationship will be like. Not saying for you to get a divorce but becareful on that choice. I know your H. said that.
Again you need to tell your friends that there is a possible relationship going on with your H. and OW. You need to get this out. Don't keep it a secret. If he is aware that everyone is awre of their "frindhip" and your are doing everything right to make it work and regain his EN's then he might not think that she is worth it! His world has been exposed!

OK, time to work on the garden

Today is your day and please enjoy it.
Ali <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yesterday was actually pretty good, given the circmstances of course. He is still very angry with me, and his concern is for the OW's feelings as opposed to mine (that was very hard for me to even write, by the way!), BUT he told me that there would be no more secrets and that he was going to commit to us. I take this as a very good sign, because in the last few days, he has been saying that he would commit "for the sake of the kids" and now that's changed.
This plan A stuff WORKS. It works because it's opening my eyes and ears in a way that I'm not sure has ever happened before. To be honest, the plan A is also on of the most frustrating things I have ever done, because there are times where I feel like a doormat. There is a nasty part of me that keeps saying " are you just setting yourself up again?". I'm trying to ignore that feeling, because I've listened to that nasty voice and responded in kind, and look where that has brought me. (actually, in a weird way, that has brought me HERE, which is good, but...you know what I mean!)

Tomorrow is our anniversary (I know, can you believe this?). And, we have a lunch date. It's been a long time since we have had a date...I'll let you know what happens.

Have a wonderful day, and thanks for listening.

Well, I was fooling myself. Yesterday, he came back so cold and distant, and I tried to give him room. As we were going to bed, he starts crying over OW. How he has lost any chance for real love, and that everything that we had was meaningless. Today is our anniversary. Woohoo. I tried my best to stay on the plan; I listened and tried to empathize. But it was too much for me, and we slipped right back into old bitter patterns and accusations. I slept out on the couch last night, just wondering what I was doing. I know it's too soon, and I am asking too much, but there is a pattern here that is really bothering me. This is not the first time he has strayed, and the thread through it all is "it's someone else's responsibility/fault". And he is bitter and resentful that he can't stay with OW --someone he says he "clicks" with in a way that he has NEVER clicked with me. Doesn't leave me much to hang on, does it.

I told him I was serious about changing, and his response was that he couldn't believe it. And then went back to his list of hurts and angers from the last how ever many years. You know, I can see how he hurts, and my sudden apparent change of heart (it's real for me, but it doesn't seem that way for him) is probably baffling. Especially since it is clear from what he says that he probably never loved me.

This morning I went in to apologize--I have no choice but to try and reimplement plan A--not for him but for me and for our kids. I have to try and start seeing things from his vantage point, but I'm also realizing I may have to grow and learn all by myself.

Sometimes, though, I wish I were dead. RIght now, all I have is the love of my two beautiful kids; otherwise, I probably would be.

Please pray for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I should add that he has lied to me again; he is still in contact with her, and he told me that he never said he would not keep secrets from me.

Please all of you out there--how do you keep implementing plan A when everything conspires against it? I know that there are tales on this site that are much much worse than what I'm going through...what keeps all of you going? How do you NOT respond to the LB of the other party?

Hi cciyer

Welcome to MB! This might be a good place to be right now for you. If you can buy the Harley books and read them you will understand a lot.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Please all of you out there--how do you keep implementing plan A when everything conspires against it? <hr /></blockquote>Plan A in my view, if not about him, it's about you making the best of you, changing yourself, and in the meantime thinking over your emotions and not LBing the other party. Once you fully get it, you will do it without a doubt or many flaws.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I know that there are tales on this site that are much much worse than what I'm going through...what keeps all of you going? How do you NOT respond to the LB of the other party? <hr /></blockquote>It doesn't matter if tales are worse than yours, you are here for the same reasons 99% of us are here. Infidelity.

I don't know about the rest, but what kept me here, was seeing a light in a dark tunel. I thought all was lost, and MB gave me the light and the hope I so much craved for. I didn't knew better at the time, and made many many mistakes all over. But day by day (baby steps) I changed myself. It took a while, and I'm not even nearly done, but I still have hope I can do better, and have this M we always thrived for.

Hang with us, this will get better. I know you don't believe it now, but it will. I didn't myself and it took me a whole year to realize what I think is true and was told many times, and couldn't believe at the time.

You are doing the same circle all over again. Your H is pushing you, and since you woke up, but haven't got the time to change by conviction but by emergency, you are back to old bad habits, wich mean reacting to his fog talk.

MB is a fast solution on what you have to do, it gives you the tools, but implementing them will take you a lifetime. Deep change takes time, but if you really want to save your M, take your time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Take good care, and let us know what is happening, people here is very wise, and have lived wat you did. Our script is not much different, and if you follow a plan, things will get better.

Thanks for the kind words.....this morning I did give him a card for our anniversary--and it made him cry. The card was real, not full of some false sentiment that I'm not sure either of us feel right now. And maybe he was responding to that realism from me, which is something admittedly I haven't been doing in a while.
He wants us to go to MC, and I reluctantly agreed. I guess I'm reluctant because I sort of feel lilke I'm going to be in front of a firing squad ( the counselor is a professional collegue of my physician husband). But I can handle a firing squad if it means that I (hopefully WE) grow in the process.
If I can keep myself focused on US, and not dissolve in jealous fears about the OW, then I might be ok.

Good Morning cciyer,

Sorry you needed to find this place, but very happy you are here. I'm going to respond to a few of your comments and try my best to help you work find some direction.

First, let's talk about Plan A. Contrary to popular opinion, Plan A is not about you. It's all about ending the affair and showing your husband that the marriage is an attractive alternative. Until his affair is over, do not expect much progress in his thinking because he is in a "cloud" of confusion that we call "the fog". In the fog, he will rewrite the entire history of your marriage. He will say hurtful things....like he "never" loved you....or the one you mentioned...that you never "clicked". Please ignore this fog induced babble and concentrate your efforts on Plan A. Here is a Plan A guide that I like to give people....especially those who feel like a doormat. It's from cerri (Penny Tupy) who has her own site and is MB trained.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a stategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to.

(I challenge you to find anyone who has done Plan A longer than that and been successful. I define successful as the A ending, n/c promised and verified, and the couple working a good recovery plan which includes meeting needs, eliminating LBers, getting in 15 hours a week of UAT, and most importantly following POJA.)
<hr /></blockquote>The biggest and most important hurdle you have right now is eliminating love busters. If you can't control those...you will not make your marriage attractive. That doesn't mean you don't express your feelings....but you must do it respectfully (confrontation). Just because he doesn't like them....doesn't make them love busters.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> he isn't really ready to believe that I am willing to change <hr /></blockquote>Of course he doesnt' believe that you are willing to change. You two took a long time to become incompatible, and it will take time and consistency to show him believable results.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I reiterated my concern that his continued contact with OW was not helpful here, and he just bristled and told me that I had no right to be angry about it since I am the one who pushed him into the situation. <hr /></blockquote>Okay....he may "bristle" often....but respectfully offer this explanation. "H, I know that I have a huge responsibility for pushing you away from our marriage. I am sorry for that, and I want to change that...and will. But you are 100 percent responsible for the choice to have an affair. There are many ethical and moral ways you could have addressed the problems in our marriage and honestly approached your isolation. Instead, you chose to go outside of our marriage vows. Until your affair ends, there is very little hope for the recovery of our marriage...even if I try my hardest to show you how much I love you."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />He has repeatedly said that he is working with me for the sake of our kids, and I cling to that as the only thread of hope--actually, I take that back; he did also agree to go to marriage counseling, and I guess if this were truly far gone, he would not have agreed.

<hr /></blockquote>The first part of this is fogbabble...but I'm encouraged that he is willing to go to counseling. Please be very careful about how you choose a counselor...I'm going to find some guidelines for you to help you choose. But I do recommend phone counseling with either the Harleys or Penny...they are both great resources.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I struggle with sexual intimacy as I have a condition called vaginismus <hr /></blockquote>Please do seek help for this condition...I do understand there is some. But even if intercourse is painful...there are many many ways to be affectionate to your spouse and satisfy your spouse aside from intercourse. Those are things you can do....and should if you expect your husband to be sexually faithful. That is something that I can tell you feel badly about...that you allowed this condition to undermine ALL the intimacy in your marriage. This is a change that you can and should make....for you as well as him. He may not be very receptive to intimacy right now...but what he will allow, like casual intimacy....please try.

Continue to state the importance of ending contact with his A partner. Since EA are just as damaging as PAs...doesn't mean you shouldn't investigate a little. Is this woman married? If she is....I urge you to contact her husband. I also urge you to take a trip to your doctor...for two things...possible anti-depressants and STD tests, as well as an update on your condition.

Also, again....as the others have done....I recommend "Surviving an Affair" which goes into far more detail about why these strategies work. Expect some anger from your husband when you expose this affair....but please don't lose your courage if he refuses to end this affair.

Best of luck to you....and welcome to MB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you Starfish...you know, I came across the quote in your signature one of the first times I was here, and I still think about it when times look bad...like right now.

You make some very good points; definitely need to take some time and really process what you have told me. I'm working on communication, confrontation without hostility or downright rudeness (which I failed miserably in last night...sigh...).

One of the big problems in this relationship is my tendency to simply shut down and block out whenever there is conflict. My first instinct is to run away--and I have done this in almost all of my relationships with other people. In my twisted way of thinking, it was almost better not to have contact than to have the type of contact that hurt so much. How wrong I was!! So I have been running away from husband for so long...what else could I expect him to do? No, I'm not excusing the affair, but even I understand the depths of his pain and loneliness to even contemplate this as a solution. And I have run away from friendships as well, and chosen the wrong type of friendships where little investment was needed (or sought). Oh boy.

About the only thing I did handle (?) last night was talking about the OW. I told him that I understood he was conflicted, but that it was going to be very difficult to communicate and work on us if he still maintained contact. That's when he "bristled" and told me that he was still in contact(email and phone, at least that is what he says) and would continue to do so. From what I hear from you all, I have to be consistent on this issue--to him, it feels like an ultimatum (which I guess it is) and he doesn't feel that I have the right to demand that.

This is not the role model I want to be for my children. This is not the type of partner I want to be for my husband. I have so many doubts right now.

Sorry--having some trouble finding the words right now. I'll post later when they come back to me. Thank you so much.

Star*fish has a lot of good points! Especially plan A. thing!

I am so glad to read that you are opening up to your husband with a geniune anniversary card! YEAHHHH! I know there is hope for you two!

Going to sound corney but how did you feel? Do you like opening up to your husband now? I know that is might feel a little strange. When I feel that I can be strong, I go back to the days when my husband I am just met. The feelings are overwhelming. Majority of the time when we hold each other and I become a pocupine, I close my eyes and just remember what it was that that made me fall in love with him. And I try desperately to hang on to that feeling.

OK nuff of my psycho babble!

I am proud of you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ali

Had some more time to think about what you all have said. We had a talk today, which left me rather drained. We talked very bluntly about the relationship; about the beginnings of it, about the fact that sadly, we never really may have been "in love" when we got married (we had a really rocky relationship prior to getting married, for many of the same reasons that we do right now...history repeats itself), but yet we were able to support each other through our education. We both agreed that things really started to fall apart after the birth of our first child, and completely disintegrated when we had the second child. He talked about his feelings for OW, and I DIDN"T DO ANY LOVE BUSTERS! I LISTENED! (sorry for the caps; I was pretty impressed with myself. :-) ). He finally did admit that what was happening now was destructive to all parties involved...but, he is still not willing to give up contact. And I said exactly (or close) to what you all have said : You must understand that there are consequences and ramifications for the actions you choose. I want to work on us, but under those circumstances, I will continue to seek insight and knowledge about myself, and it will be difficult for us to progress from where we are right now."

Some of you have asked some questions about OW, and this is what I know: I have met her (she has come over to our house twice.....whew), she is single, is very lonely and disillusioned with her job and life here (we live in the South)...I actually told my husband that she had feelings for him, which he brushed off (hmmm...the irony of it all). But looking past my anger at her, I think she may be the one in the truly horrid position; I will always have my children, and she might have WH now, but his feelings for his children will always complicate his interactions with her. I'm actually more angry at WH for taking advantage of a lost soul (now, don't misunderstand; I'm certainly not justifying her actions, but I think she is as lost as we are).

I do have another question for you all, and I may post this separately. It's a question of finances....my husband earns much more than I do (i'm a professor at a community college), and even though he keeps saying he won't leave me (because of kids), I am thinking that I may need to develop some independence in this area. Right now all of our assets are combined--bank account, credit cards etc. What are your thoughts on this?

Ali--thanks for your encouragement. I honestly don't feel too hopeful right now, but I will continue, and maybe you can keep the hope for me! You asked me how I felt about opening up--I feel crappy and empowered at the same time! Weird answer, I know--it does feel good to finally let these feelings out, and know that I can be strong like this. Although I do feel like a 'porcupine" (love that!) too--

Cee

Your story sounds so familiar, even down to the A pre-marriage. BTW, the A turned physical a week after d-day, so be very vigilant!

Plan A was designed precisely for the WS who doesn't want to end contact. If you feel like a doormat, you are doing it right. Plan A is about going against every instinct in your body.

Your WS is confused. That is very good! He is waffling. He's not sure what to do. He does not want to leave you!

I recommend signing up for Retrouvaille. We went when the A was still ongoing, but it helped reestablish our emotional connection. The A didn't end for another 2 1/2 months, but it made FWS think that our M could be better.

You will *have* to stop LB'ing! That is imperative. WS has to be convinced that you can change. You have to do it for your M.

I just want to say that your WS is trying rewrite history. There is a reason you married and it's because you loved each other. What you two have been through together is real love. Maybe it wasn't perfect and you guys could work on improving it, but you have the foundation of making your M even better than you imagined.

We questioned our connection, if we ever even had one, etc., but I Plan A'd like you wouldn't believe. The A ended and we've discovered soulmates in each other.

Hang in there. It's not gonna be easy, but you definitely are on the road to recovery.

Remember you have the advantage here. You are married and you are the mother of his children. You may not want him to stay because of the kids, but we have to use anything we can to end the A.

What kept me going? I admit I faltered, but I kept trying. I guess knowing that this has worked in other Ms. I just had faith that we could recover as well.

You have the right idea. Keep coming back to this site. Keep posting. You will find encouragement and hope here. I noticed that I would really mess up when I hadn't been here for awhile. The people here kept me on the right path.

Your WS is looking for a friend. Be that friend to him!

Just when I think I can handle it, it gets worse again. He is waffling--half the time he says he will make the decision to stay and in the next breath, he talks about going forward with this relationship to see if this is really the one he has been looking for his whole life. There were no LB on my part again; I did listen. Then he said that he would still want to be friends with me if and when he went off with OW. Ok, deep breath on my part and then I said, " I hear what you are saying. I hear your need for space and the conflict you are feeling now. However, under those circumstances I would work with you to make sure our children suffer as little as possible--but I could not be your friend." I don't know if that is the right thing to say, but it is the truth; he needs to know that he cannot have everything here.

So basically I'm in limbo. I don't know the time span for this decision, and he has said enough contradictory information that I am not sure what he will do. I can only continue with what I have started here with you all. I'm just praying that he makes the right decision--for all of us. What really is breaking my heart are my kids; my daughter is so attached to her father, and tonight (H went off to talk with a mutual friend--not the OW!) she told me" Mommy, you are always here with me". I will always be with her and her brother, and that is the only thing that gets me through these days.

To think that 17 years of being together (8 years of marriage) could be supplanted by a person he has met for 2 weeks.....how fragile love is.

Hello there!

Boy does your Hubby seems to be in that fog. Oh life is sooo sweet and sooooo wonderful with the OW. He doesn't get it! No responsibilities at all. He seems to think his life will be so much better. HA! We'll see! It was suggested that I go on the recovery side and read shadows or something like that. Gee I forgot the threads name too. But on one post of the thread, she wrote about how she is now acting like the other woman and have the same responsibilities as she does.(nothing) It is kinda comical. Put a huge smile in my face!
Great job by the way for keeping your comments to yourself. That must have been very difficult. I have many holes in my tongue! Keep it up!

What does he mean he wasn't sure if you both were in love with each other when you took your vows??
Because that is a typical response from a person who is trying to justify their guilt. "Well, maybe we weren't really in love." Or "I married you for the wrong reason's." Very common. Do you know for a fact if that is what you were feeling?

I think right now is way to soon to discuss divorce. That is just my opinion. Right now there is so much going on. If you divorce now, you will have unfinished business. You cannot leave a marriage when it this volatile. I am taking that advice from my therapist and passing it on to you. I believe I also read it somewhere too! But I know it came from two sources. I know the first thing I wanted to do when I found out of his PA was throw him to the curb. Then my fog set in and I desperately seeked his attention and his approval. Then, well, I am now where I am now. But if I divorced, I would have been so bitter and extremely resentful and most likly him too!

Have you talked about MC? I highly suggest it. If your feelings are about divorce right now, I would highly recommend it.

If I were you? I would open up a savings account and put away as much as you can each pay period. You should have a nest egg period! Regardless. Do you have your own credit card without his name on the account? Even if your marriage is perfect you need to establish your own credit.

Patience! Again, the world seems to be so perfect with the OW in it! But ask yourself this; "What would his world be like if he were to marry her and she would now then take on marriage responsibilities"? It wouldn't seem so romantic to him would it? Humm, kinda like where he is now with you? Does he have a physical relationship with her? Something doesn't make sense to me! Some men, not all, would want to test the "waters" before jumping in. I would look deeper into that if I were you! Not impling anything but something to think about.

Keep doing Plan A. if you want it to work out! It gets so frustating and sometimes you feel you are just staginet. But instead you are finding more and more about yourself and your needs too! Remember, flowers don't grow in one night. It takes time to see results! Who knows this might blossom into something more beautiful. I just have this positive feeling with you.

Don't give up! It is to soon to tell. I wish I could say something to you that will make you feel better. But I am stuck myself! I had a big set back and I am stuck. Again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Good luck and keep posting!

Ali

cc:

A couple of good links on counseling:
how to identify a good counselor: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html
why it is so important:
http://www.smartmarriages.com/hazardous.html

Beyond that - try not to react to every change in him. He is confused, as is evident from his behavior. Don't let him confuse YOU. Do what YOU want to do. Plan ahead, and execute your plan.

Order Surviving An Affair ASAP! It will outline exactly what your WS is going through. That was another thing that helped me. FWS didn't know which end was up, but I knew exactly what he was thinking.

I'm not gonna lie. It will look very bleak for awhile, but keep doing Plan A. You think it's not working, but it's laying the foundation for recovery. And believe me, WS is watching you, taking it all in.

Only 2 weeks? Oh my! Of course, she's the love of his life. She hasn't even had time to LB. But don't worry, she will.

Have you tried finding an MC? What about IC? You will need lots of support. Have you told anyone about the A?

Wow--lots to think about from you all. To Ali--I don't think we are really talking about divorce (or maybe this is wishful thinking on my part, who knows)--it may be good that he is telling me these feelings instead of withholding them and going to her. I have to tell you though that we have been troubled for a long time, and I think both of us, instead of dealing with the trouble, developed some sort of fantasy image of what the "perfect" spouse would be--and we weren't that for each other. And now I guess his fantasy became very real. You're right; this is a situation devoid of any responsibility, any children--and he realizes this but his conflict is whether or not he will ever find that "spark" with me, and is it worth giving up this chance, even with everything he could lose.

I'm trying hard not to react to every waffling (and you all see how well I'm doing with that! not so good, right?) and it is tough not to fall back on anger and hurt as the response. When I feel that way, I come here to write to all of you. He knows I am writing here, although his first comment was " Is this some site where you all bash the spouse who wandered?" Sometimes I think he still doesn't get it.....it;'s anything BUT spouse-bashing.

I am going to set up a separate set of finances, and I have told him why. Strangely, this seems to hurt him the most--he keeps saying " You're overreacting, I'm not going to leave you" --which of course is followed by fog-talk ( I like this phrase!).

I'm in a bit of a fog too....we have told some people about this; there is a colleague of mine at work who knows and is being wonderful (she is much older than me --I'm 36--and has been through a divorce, so there is empathy here). We have told a mutual friend, who is terribly torn, and I feel somewhat guilty talking to him. However, he is the one H talked to last night, and H himself said our mutual friend was trying to steer H towards the "right decision" (my H's words, not mine--I guess a good sign).

Neither one of us have told our parents; my parents had an arranged marriage (I'm Indian by ethnicity, my husband is Anglo) and marriage to them is duty--they would never understand this. Perhaps this is the source of some of my confusion about what needs to happen in a marriage....And his parents, sadly, went through something like this themselves a long time ago, and view us as " the model family".

I hear what you all are saying, and I know the pain is so terribly fresh, but I must wait and give it time. As a genuine bona fide control freak, this is rather hard. Ali--I'm so sorry to hear there has been a setback. I don't exactly know your story, but it seems that you have been in limbo far longer than I have. How in the world do you cope?

I look forward to hearing from all of you---I'm still so amazed and grateful I found this place; to think that "strangers" would care so much brings me to tears.

Ali--You asked if there was a physical relationship....you know, it seems a bit strange to me too, because the more we talk, the more attached he seems to her. At the beginning, it was " we just are friends" and now it's more like "she might be the love of my life". He keeps insisting that this is strictly EA, and all I can do is calmly (?) remind him that I need to know how far this has gone.

Do I suspect more? You bet I do, particularly given my history with physical intimacy. But even if it did happen, would I change my approach now? I mean, I would still be doing Plan A....right?

So confused....

cc,

Yeah, this place is pretty amazing. When I found out about my H's infidelity I was in the middle of a move to a foreign country. This site became my life line to my language, country....and I've made lasting friendships here. I'm not sure how I would have coped without it.

Plan A is the right place to be whether it's an EA or turned physical. And yes, in your shoes I'd be pretty suspicious too about how far things have gone. All the others are right....most of what your H is saying right now sounds like fogbabble. Until the affair ends, and your husband has some time to get through withdrawal....it will be impossible for him to truly remember how much he has loved you. Most of us have been where you are and know how devastating many of those words can be...but try your best not to take the babble to heart.

Thinking of you!!!!

Hi There!

I am glad about the divorce situation. I am glad to read that wasn't an option yet.

It definitely sounds like he worried. Women need to get a nest egg. Just for security reasons and learning how to survive without our H. support. I am not working unfortunately. I love staying home with my kids but we need the income so bad. The problem is that child care would take over my pay check. So it wouldn't be feasable for me to work. There goes all my annuals and I guess I will have a bare yard this year well, except for my periannals! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But what if something were to happen to my H? I would have really nothing to survive on. I have established a great credit rating. But The nest egg that I had saved up many years ago diminished when he quit his job. It is not about what if we get a divorce, it is planning about the unknown.

How do I cope? Good question. Journaling helps. Reading when I find the time. Write now the kids are playing in here so I am able to come on line for a few. I am in therapy, that helps. But as someone mentioned it is called survival. And that is what I have to do for my kids. I need to be a good Mommy to them. It is their needs that make me go forward through out the day. But they can definitely sense something is not right in the house hold. I was on medication, but we can't afford our Cobra anymore. My husbands insurance doesn't kick in until December. I have a few samples for one more month but after that? Deep breaths I guess.
So your Husband is Anglo? Now how did you have an arranged marriage with an Anglo? I always wondered how two people can live together and preform the expected marriage duties and not be in love. That has got to be soo difficult. But from what I understand from your post you two did like each other a lot.
I know your H. is a doctor. Does he still work strange hours our is it a 8-5 thing? My H. and I do a lot of things that we enjoy. We are planning out our summer with a wish list that we like to do together. We love going to the Gardens here, bike riding, etc. So we are going to find the time and $$$ to enjoy the things that we like to do together. It helps bring the spark back. But as you know, I sometimes numb up! But those are my own issues. I know you have two very small kids. But try to find some down time for the both of you and start off small.

Let me know if that sounds like a plan??

Ali

Hi Ali--Wow. I still don't know how you do it! Yes, I think developing a nest egg needs to be done; I actually suggested this at the beginning of our marriage, not because I thought he would have an affair, but just for the principal of it. He talked me out of it....grrr....nowI have more backbone. I was thinking of giving up my job to stay with the kids, but that is not an option anymore.

Our marriage was NOT arranged--but my parent's marriage was (they are from India; I was born in the States). We dated for quite a while before getting married. And here we are now...

Sorry, I'm wallowing in self-pity right now. I alternate between being very weepy and afraid and really really mad (like I am right now; good thing H is not here!). This morning, he gives a me a kiss good-bye; I call him at lunch to see how a presentation went earlier, and he was very enthusiastic about that...and then he closed down."gotta go. bye." Give me patience, please!!! Let me ride this roller coaster without throwing up all over him!!!

Ahh...got that off my chest. Back to plan A!

Take care to all.--CC

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Warning to all--I'm really angry tonight, and I know that this would be nothing but destructive to what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm writing this to vent, and I hate wasting your time with this, but if I don't get this out of my system here, then it will come out in all the wrong places! (you are free to stop reading here! :-))

H called to tell me he was on his way home, and then awkwardly said, " I'm going to be late tomorrow". Read: meeting OW. I asked him if he had reached any conclusions, and he said no. I didn't say anything, and he asked me what I was thinking. (It's a good thing I counted to ten before answering that question) As calmly as I could, I said, " you know my position on this; the longer you stay in contact with her, the harder (if not impossible) it will be to work on us." He asked me if I was giving him an ultimatum--yeah, he was trying to pick a fight, to make me send him her way, and I didn't bite. I just told him that there was no more to say on that topic because he already knew where I stood, and that if he did want to talk about it, we could do so after the kids went to sleep.
(Just by the way, what did he expect me to say? Sure go ahead and have a jolly time?? I should bite off my tongue!!)

BUT, I have got to say that at times like this, the impulse is so great to say "Go, Just Go!" His actions are jeopardizing his future relationship with his children, his family, his workplace--and last on the list, of course, is me. And his total lack of responsibility is driving me nuts--who the hell is taking care of his kids while he is trying to figure out where he is??? ME.

And then I remember that I played a big role in bringing him to this state.

Just before I came down, I went in to say goodnight to my little 3.5 year old girl, who smiled at me and said "Goodnight Mommy--Happy Mother's Day!" I told her that it wasn't Mother's day today, and she laughed and said " What do you mean--you're my mommy, right?" and kissed me on my hand. Oh God, I almost lost it in front of her, and H, who is putting her to bed, just looked at me.

I have to try for this beautiful little girl and her beautiful brother, and get beyond my own selfish pains and hurts. I'm sorry to post so often; I have to get this anger out of my system before I talk to him every day. I have always just shoved the anger somewhere inside and never dealt with it, and so I'm afraid you all must hear it all come out. I'm really sorry. Even writing this down here has helped clear my brain of part of the fog that I am in.... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I am glad you are posting and not taking it out on your H. Good for you. I want to comment on this but kids want to go to bed! Yep they WANT to go to bed!
Ali

I just don't know....again we talked, which I realize is good, and we went through a lot of painful history which has to happen if we are to have any chance of making this work again. I learned a lot tonight; about his loneliness and feeling shut out of my life, which ironically, is how I felt --loneliness and being shut out of his life. For the first time we talked about the first affair, and I'm glad I got his perspective. But I also saw something that I probably knew all along but didn't want to admit---he refuses to carry the responsibility of the ramifications of the affair --both the old and the current. He told me that my reaction to the first affair--which was shock , disbelief, and yes, emotionally pulling away--was unfair, that what I should have done is reached out to him and said " I'm so sorry you have been suffering". Clearly, there is an emotional need here, no doubt, but how can you say those things when the trust has been so badly shaken?

He has a real issue with believing that I can change; and I actually am sympathetic to it given how long I have been in such a emotional strait-jacket. He would rather hold onto the many hurts that I have inflicted on him over the past years, and I think I understand that letting go of that means a giant leap of faith for him--one which sadly he may never be able to do.

And now, this: he says he has the right (his words, not mine) to see what type of relationship he can develop with the OW. I asked him if this was limited to an emotional/friendship relationship, or could it include a physical one. He told me that he could not rule out the physical relationship. I then held firm that I respected his feelings but that this would lead us away from rebuilding, and that would be damaging for us and our children. Then he got mad and told me I was being manipulative for bringing out children into it.

Can I rebuild a relationship with this man? I told him that we both contributed to the place where we were at (he agreed) and that we can't come out of it until we can work together--and that means no third parties involved. (he didn' t agree). And even here he waffled: I told him that frankly I was demoralized, and he came back with " why don't you view this as our trying to work things out?" Huh??

Sometimes i think this is just an exercise for him, because he is too wishy-washy to come out and tell me that he has already made his decision to be with OW; that he has to let me down gently by stringing me along with false hope. And even better, if he can make me mad, then there is no guilt for him, since I am the one who pushed him there. He told me that he has no regrets about the first affair, that it was a growing period for him. Why am I trying to hold on to a man who, after all these years, says he has no regrets about dissolving trust in a relationship?

He is going out with her tomorrow night.....I'm not giving up, although honestly it's getting harder and harder (and you all said it would!). I think I am getting stronger though. You know, through all of this, I did maintain plan A, although I almost slipped once--and boy did he pounce! It was like he was waiting for a chance to say " well here she goes again, and therefore I'm right about this, and therefore I'll continue without guilt or a sense of responsibility".

I'm actually feeling DISAPPOINTED in him as opposed to the anger I felt all day. You know, all this time it has been " please please come back, I need you". Now I feel more like " I think you need to grow up, and I hope you can do that in the context of a relationship with me". I know I don't want to go back to the person that I was, and maybe the new me ..... can't take him as the person he was/is either.

Okay....well he's in DEEP fogland so don't expect him to make sense. He has to justify doing something that is so wrong that he'll have to do a lot of moral juggling in order to do it.

So....keep control of the lovebusting (you're doing great BTW), fill the needs he will allow you to....and start thinking about exposure. Since the OW is single, and you seem to have some sympathy for her situation....perhaps a conversation with her might be helpful. She may need your husband, but you can certainly make a good argument that your children need their father and you need your husband a whole lot more. Tell her how much you love your husband and that you have no intention of giving up your marriage. Ask her to consider going to NC and doing the "right" thing. Do lay on the guilt. Ask her if her parents are aware of the fact that she is dating a married man? If they met at work...consider telling the boss. Expose the affair to anyone else you believe is a friend to your marriage and may be able to have a positive influence on your husband (parents, friends, family). Is this a scary step?....you bet it is. Will your H be furious at first? Most definitely...but the longer you wait, the more entrenched this affair will become....don't let your fear of his reaction prevent you from using one of the most powerful tools you have in your arsenal to save your marriage.

[ May 13, 2004, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

I hear what you are saying, Star*fish, and yes, I'm really scared of that. There are also some complicating issues with revealing this; H is a physician (surgeon) who met OW as his patient. Obviously, in addition to everything else, this has implications for his profession, and as much anger as I'm feeling for him, I really don't want to dismantle everything that he has worked for. ( some of you may think I should be more punitive, but I cannot do this...although he did it, not me! Sorry, random rambling there)

Some people do know, although our families do not. In my heart I know the time is coming where I will tell them, not just to reveal the affair but to have them understand where we are (or more aptly, are NOT). This morning he told me, with great bitterness, that he would "probably" tell OW that nothing more can come from this. And I held the line; that if he cannot break the contact, that as much as I loved him, he could not play both roles at the same time and that I would have to put physical distance--and yes, I would take the kids.

We'll see...I suspect tonight may be one of the worst nights of my life...just will have to keep busy with the kids while H decides everyone's future. Actually, I wrote that and it's not true--I am, for the first time, deciding my future.

It's the same script as everyone else, right?

It's funny--I was educated at a very elite institution and I completed 10 years of graduate work in my field( I have a BS and PhD--"piled higher and deeper" :-) )--and yet I never learned how to live and grow. I wanted to please everyone, to get the proverbial "pat on the head". I never took the time to figure out what's going on with ME, and thus lost track of everyone around me, namely H. I lost him in the fog of trying to be everything for everyone, and in the process ended up being nothing for no one.

There is a fear in him--he keeps asking me : IF you are committed to growth, how do you know that I'm the one who will make your life meaningful. The answer is that I don't. I think it would be easier, and I told him this, if I did say "You're right, we were not meant for each other, so let's just stop the pain and move our separate ways". But there's more to us that just that....and truthfully, I do have doubts, that I'm going back to a man who fundamentally does not know who I am (Although to be fair, I haven't really known who I am for a long long time), and that I will never know the love, safety, and trust that I am longing for in a relationship. It's a crap shoot for me too.

Did you order SAA?

All I have to say is hang on! One of your most powerful weapons is your children. The moment FWS decided to end the A was when he heard our daughter crying in the middle of the night. She was only 17 months old and certainly didn't understand her daddy might be leaving, but I'm sure she was responding to the stress in the house. FWS sensed this, too, and decided at that moment to stay.

FWS didn't see anything wrong with the As, technically, either. He knew I was hurt and why, but he felt his behavior was justified. However, 3 months after d-day, he finally felt true remorse. Your WS is in the fog. He will not accept true responsibility for awhile, yet. Try not to dwell too much on this.

Gosh, are we living parallel lives? Everything you're writing is what happened with us. Yes, he doesn't believe you can change, but you're showing him. He's gonna have to learn to trust you. Just like you're gonna have to learn to trust that he won't ever stray again. It's just part of the rebuilding.

As to his right to explore the A, tell him he gave up that right he took his vows. Yeah, we all have the right to do whatever we want, but you are trying to save him from making a big mistake. You are trying to offer him the chance to make your M what you both want.

I recommend an exercise: write out what you consider your ideal relationship. Share it with your WS and tell him that is what you are striving for.

If talking about your children is an LB, then don't mention them again. Your WS knows all about them. They are uppermost in his mind. Don't worry. He is not forgetting your children.

Oh my word. My FWS said the same thing about working on the M while he was in the middle of an A. I just kept reiterating that nothing could be accomplished between us while there was a third person involved.

You are sounding so much like me 7-8 months ago. I was so convinced that FWS had decided to leave and was only waffling because he couldn't bear to leave the comforts of home.

Don't believe it! He loves you! He is torn! He wants to stay! Give him that reason to stay. If he wanted to leave, he would already be gone. There is a reason he is still with you. He wants your M to work. Show him that you want the same thing.

Recovery is not just about your M. Recovery will be about you and WS as individuals. You're right. You are different and so is he. You can create an even better M now.

Oh my! My FWS did a stupid thing, too. The OW was his employee. They could have both been fired. That is one thing that I didn't follow in regards to Plan A. I did not expose the A. Not sure if that helped or not, but his reputation would have been ruined at work and I know my family would never be able to forgive him.

Don't let yourself have a pity party. Look at yourself. You are a well-educated woman and a wonderful mother and now you are strong enough to fight for your M. Your WS will wake up and see this. You are honest and compassionate. You care about others and don't have a hidden agenda in dealing with people.

He will remember why he fell in love with you and discover the OW cannot hold a candle to you. ((hugs))

Dear lbc--thank you for the kind thoughts....and it's encouraging to hear your story (although I'm so appalled it's so similar to mine! No one should have to go through this....twice!). It's funny; I thought I would be an emotional wreck tonight during their "meeting" (maybe I will be later tonight), but I'm not. Probably because I'm writing to you all.

I have a dear colleague who I have confided my story...she is 64 and went through the same scenario when she was my age (36). It's interesting--I told her about this web site, and she mentioned that she had been so isolated when this happened...her husband left her for OW, OW dumped him, and he tried to come back--unsuccessfully, because she had had enough. Don't worry--she's not encouraging me to leave; far from it, she is actually reiterating many of the things you have said here.

I have to admit, I'm depressed when I look at the time posts people put in their signatures and the affairs last months, if not years after D-day. And then they happen AGAIN. It's sobering to think that this is how we value the committment made in the context of marriage.

Lbc, the kids definitely matter to him. It may be the only thing right now that keeps him (maybe? maybe not?) from going to OW. However, I'm not going to mention it again because he perceives this as LB--that I'm using the threat of taking the kids with me as leverage for my case. I wish he could see how unhealthy it would be for the kids to STAY in that kind of environment. And maybe he will.

I waffle too; sometimes I have doubts about the love I feel for him. I wonder why I love someone who cannot and will not try to see me....you know, that is probably what he feels right now. If this place has taught me ANYTHING, it has taught me to think about his needs, even in the context of my own hurt and sorrow.

Random thoughts (so I don't think of THEM tonight!) Gotta run; baby boy wailing for his bottle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well.....apparently H and OW talked about NC, although they don't really seem ready to do it. H told me that he knows that what we have --the kids-- is worth staying for, although he would not let me near him tonight.

I told him that this process I started (with you all!) cannot stop, and he told me while he is happy about that, he doesn't really think he will ever be able to love me that way again--that he never really did. I'm really numb right now--all i could say was that when he was ready, I would be there.

And now I'm left with some very ambivalent feelings....in some ways I know that I started moving forward while he was moving backwards.....so I can't really expect anything from him. It's a bittersweet feeling I have right now; I still don't know if he can cut off contact with her, but he's so down that I suspect they (she?) must have talked about it.

He finally did say that we both shared responsibility for the situation we have now. I have been waiting 17 years for him to acknowledge this. I guess that's a start.

I may start posting the recovery section....it might be premature to do this, but I think the threads there fit my situation more (people in various stages of plan A and plan B). PLease look for me over there, and I will do the same.

I wish you all lived closer to me.....email is great, but I'm so lonely and it would be so nice to see you all face to face! I'm in the Dallas-Fort Worth area; are there any chapters in my neck of the woods? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Oops, what I meant to say was I would probably start posting in the plan A/plan B section.....after this morning, recovery seems quite far away. H is SO angry....and I told him I would give him space, and I have been. But then he will come up to me and just stand there, and I'll ask if he wants to talk, and he will look at me, and then say " No there's no point. I'm staying, you got what you wanted" and go away again.

I told him that we both deserve better, and I will continue to work with my "chat group" (he is getting more and more dismissive--threatened--by what I'm doing here, even though I have told him he can read whatever I write. No secrets on my part.). He left this morning, and told me that he would be back tonight --I don;t have anywhere else to go--that's what he said.

Oh, I am angry. I didn't expect him to come running back to me, but the daily hostility is just wearing me down. I can't sleep, I can't eat.....and I can't take time out for me because of the kids (since my husband leaves at 7 am and doesn't come home until 7 pm....and the kids are in bed by 8 pm....what to do?)

Sorry, major whining here. I'm not sure I really adhered to plan A this morning....it was really hard to hide my frustration.

cciyer,

I'm in Houston if you ever want to make a day trip. Maybe we could meet in the middle? In July I'm attending the SmartMarriage Conference in Dallas as part of my certification process.

I know you think you're doing badly...but I can promise you that you are not. I've seen bad LOL. Alot of these things tend to turn into Jerry Springer events.

But just for a second...let's talk about responsibility. Your H is quite right that you are partially responsible for the vulnerability of your marriage to an affair. But guess what....he is 100% responsible for the affair itself. No matter what you did or did not do over the course of your marriage. No matter how sad and isolated he was....there were many many ways he could have dealt with those feelings besides choosing the most devastating and selfish choice he could make. Here's a few of the ethical and moral ways he could have addressed his feelings:

*communicate honestly about how lonely he was feeling and give you an opportunity to reach out to him.

*communicate honestly that he found himself attracted to other women and give you the opportunity to meet his needs.

*suggest marriage counseling and talk about his alienation there.

*get individual counseling to discuss his sadness.

*end the marriage BEFORE beginning a relationship with someone else.

*go on a retrouvaille weekend and try and reconnect with you.

*talk to a clergyman and renew his faith in God and his commitment to marriage, then work with you as a team to rebuild your marriage.

*he could have honored his hypocratic oath, and his marital vows and resisted temptation with strength and resolve even though he was lonely.

He chose to do none of these....and THAT my dear is NOT your responsibility.

When he says that "you got your way"....it's perfectly fine to tell him that you have no intention of forcing him to pursue "your way". That YOU are committed to rebuilding the marriage, and that you are hoping he will make the CHOICE to do the same...but that you can only control your own actions...not his.

As far as exposure goes, I do understand the complications of that...my dad is a surgeon who had an affair with one of his nurses....he's married to her now BTW. Exposing this to his family will not put his career in jeopardy. If you find that he cannot end the affair in the near future....consider a limited exposure that protects his career...but don't rule it out.

*hugs*

Thanks star*fish; please do let me know when you're in Dallas, because I would love to meet you. Day trips are a bit hard now because of the kids...however, I will be in Houston at the beginning of next year for an academic conference of my own...we should definitely hook up!

I can't help but hope that he sees me again....right now, he's grieving too, and not just for the loss of OW but for what he perceives as the loss of everything. He has told me in the past that I am emotionally isolated, not just from him, but from everyone. And he was right....but sadly, even though he's the more "outgoing" of the two of us, I think he is just as isolated. Maybe even more than me right now....

You have given me a lot of hope...and I'm thrilled to hear that you're in my state!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm glad you are still posting. You are doing remarkably well! I hung out in the Plan A/B forum, as well.

Unfortunately, BS' have to endure so much during Plan A. WS will be very angry, but he needs to feel that to move forward.

Next time, when he is standing there, tell him a story from your past. Maybe when one of your babies were born or a fun vacation you took. This is the time to show him your beautiful, positive personality.

My FWS thought MB bashed the WS, too, but I would relate things I read from WS', so that he knew that I'm aware of both sides.

I have a question: does WS really want space? My FWS craves attention and emotional intimacy. He was *not* looking for space. What about your WS?

I just want to warn you that FWS also tried NC about 2 months before the A ended. In my gut, I knew he was not ready and I didn't take full advantage of the situation (Plan A to the hilt). NC lasted a whole week and the A was back on.

Even though, the A didn't end at that time, I think just trying NC gnaws at the OW. And just like this waffling is making you think he is trying to let you down gently, in the back of her mind, she is wondering why WS doesn't just leave. Your M is supposed to be so horrible, right? This has a negative effect on their relationship, too -- don't worry.

So, does WS let you fulfill any of his ENs? My FWS was easy in that respect. He would let me to do that to my heart's content -- I was just out of practice.

Have you looked into IC? If he thinks you are emotionally isolated, perhaps getting into counseling will show him that you are willing to work on it.

Do you have family or a friend that can watch the kids for a couple of hours? You really need to start taking time for you.

I just want to let you know that this system does work! It takes alot of work on both sides, but you just have to have faith that you can recover your M.

Hi lbc--Good to hear from you! I'm so tired and brain-dead today that I don't know how much I can write (in fact, I have had to retype this sentence about 5 times because of all the typos!) You asked me if WH really wants space....it's very strange because there are times he seems really eager to talk and then he very abruptly shifts into "get away" mode. Any reminders or memories of pleasant times in our marriage make him very defensive right now (he sees it as manipulative) so I'm going easy on those. You bring up a very good point about the affair...in all honesty I don't think its over. I think, at least from the way WH is acting, that they were both realistic in that they knew it would end, but I still haven't heard the real statement of NC from WH. Until then, I can't believe it's really over.

I hope you understood all that (I'm not sure I did!). Today was very frustrating--WH came home and just focused on our daughter . Didn't interact with the baby, and most certainly didn't interact with me. I was trying my best to do plan A, but I was/am so tired it probably didn't come off too sincere. And then, at 8:00, he tells me he is going to bed because he is exhausted. So....I put both kids down, and make the bottles for the baby. I have had less sleep than he has, because I had to get an hour earlier than he did to get the baby. I'm going on 2 hours of sleep today.....and that probably explains why I'm somewhat struggling with plan A.

He's here, but he's not. Just take it day by day....I'm drifting here...so very very tired today. Take care to all.

cc,

I would recommend the GQII board rather than the A/B board. More traffic, more vets, better information...lots of folks in Plan A/B but much faster response time. Look for ark, orchid, pepperband, toomuchcoffeeman, isgirl, justlearning, worthatry and others.

There is also another board worth visiting too: http://saveyourmarriagecentral.info...4008616&u=235000936&rc=683786511

Lots of vets on that board....quite a few people post on mb and symc too. Look for the folks there who have symc after their names....that means they are trained and have demonstrated a knowledge of the concepts.

((((((((((hugs cc))))))))))))))

You're doing fine....get some rest!

Your situation sounds a lot like mine. I just found out about my H A two weeks ago. He is telling me the same thing your husband is telling you. She "gets me". I told him he didn't know what he was talking about. There is no way she could get him only knowing him for a couple of weeks. We spoke to our Pastor about our situation and he responded that my H was in "puppy love". They see no wrong in each other right now... but that will change. Hang in there I know that it is tough. I too go through period of anger of just not understanding his logic. This morning H told me that he loved me for the first time in over a week after yesterday telling me that he had no hope for our future. Him juggling me and OW is confussing but I truly believe that for my children and our marriage it is worth it.

Thanks for the advice, star*fish and I'll check out those boards you recommended....I need all that I can get because I blew it this morning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I apparently need courses in anger management as well.....he tells me that I have no right to place any demands on him, and that he "needs time to heal"...and also explore whether this situation is best for him. He said that the idea that marriage is a committment to work through "good times and bad" was unrealistic and unfair, and would doom him to a lifetime of unhappiness. Oh dear, I completely lost it--really really blew it. I walked right into the trap....sigh...I did apologize for the anger (not my feelings, just the way I expressed them).

I know it is too early to give up, but all I feel now is an overwhelming urge to let OW have him. Stop the daily ritual of hostility and sadness. Says he wants me to show him more emotional connection, but won't let me near him; to him the only way I can show/prove that connection is to let him "explore" the relationship with OW.

I think what I really need to do is to stay quiet--I'll communicate my feelings, but I think maybe I reserve my real introspection for this board! My kids deserve a mom who isn't psycho....(not that you all deserve a poster who IS psycho...well you know what I mean!)

It's funny--he is so dismissive of this board....says it's easy to be honest when you're anonymous. I don't really WANT to be anonymous with you all....he's still in fogland. And the book....I found it in the library and I''m reading it...at work. WH reaction to this book was "well, don't leave it on the coffee table!" ( No, I think I'll frame the cover and hang it on our door.--good grief, sorry, that was a snide, very anti-plan A comment and I do apologize! I am losing my mind...)

He is seeing her tonight. Again. At least he tells me (or maybe that's not a good thing....) Ok, here I go. Plan A, again. Back to square one. Clearly, I have much to learn too.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cciyer:
 ....I need all that I can get because I blew it this morning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I apparently need courses in anger management as well.....he tells me that I have no right to place any demands on him, and that he "needs time to heal"...<hr /></blockquote>Heee heee! LOL with that! I would have probably blown off my top too! Anger management? It is called stupid patrol. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I understand what you are feeling. Longs hard walks help! It was recommended that I go back and take Pilates. It really helps when your SP. says something off the wall like that. But try to remember that he is not "with it". He is trying to make you take all the blame to ease his guilt. Justifing his behavior. And as much as you like to bash them over the head, you need to tell yourself he is lost in his own fantasy land!

I have never been on that other forum myself. Maybe I can get some good advice.

Keep posting and good luck!

Ali.

By the way, you might feel psycho! But you're not!
What you are going through is all so normal. I wish I had found this forum when H. was cheating.

Plan A. can be a loooooong process. Don't give yourself time limits and expectantices. It will only frustrate you more.

OK I am sooo tired that I have no idea what I am posting! Good night.

ali x2

So nice to hear from you Ali! well, I think I'm back in Plan A....I think i went through some self-delusion over the past two days....agreeing to terms in panic (ie if I do what he wants me to, he will come back). I woke up this morning feeling so personally dishonest....and so, much to his dismay, I reiterated my line--working towards change TOGETHER is my goal, but it cannot happen when there is a third party involved.

I don't think plan A is about being a doormat; how can I work to change the problems of this marriage if I cannot acknowledge fundamental attributes about myself? My concept of a marriage relationship involves a very definite level of commitment--one that I have not given, and I know that. But it seems crazy to say " Well, I
didn't do it before, and so now, I don't DESERVE to ever have it again" If I enter into an "open" relationship/marriage, I am not just ignoring but rejecting my own concept of what this relationship is SUPPOSED to be, not what it has (or, hasn't) been in the past.

So I said this...and he has gone back to his position that I'm not giving him space, time etc. But at least for me, saying this with conviction has removed so much anger --anger I think wasn't really directed at him but at myself, for not being true to me--and I'm ironically able to interact with him with much more warmth than I have in the past few days. I'm not saying there won't be more anger , but I'm staying with some principles....WH feels those priniciples are restrictive and stifling. I told him that I'm not going to say it again, that now he knows, and that I would like to join the world of the living again! Of course, I'd like him to join me too....me not eating and not sleeping seem to be counter-productive to any type of growth and development....

We're (both of us) are taking our daughter to the zoo today....my mother is staying with us for a couple of weeks (boy is THAT awkward---I know she knows something's not right, but in a weird way her presence is making us behave!) and will watch the little boy. The old me would have made up some excuse to avoid being with him, and I ALMOST used the same excuse again, but then I decided against it.....let him see the family we SHOULD be. Wish me luck!

BTW, question for star*fish that is not related to this: Are you a marriage counselor by profession? You had mentioned a conference in Dallas, and I was just wondering what your professional background was....

cc: you mentined earlier that youmiht want to confront the OP. If you do: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> A word about confronting the OP, when a WS is unwilling to end an affair on their own, because this question comes up a lot, and many people advise that you avoid confronting the OP, because discussions between BS’s and OP’s tend to be unhelpful and painful for the BS. I do not suggest having much of a discussion. I DO suggest confronting the OP, and also informing the OP’s spouse or girlfriend or boyfriend of what you know, if they have one. If the OP’s spouse/friend is likely to be violent, you may want to hold off on that exposure, but that is the only exception I know of, other than a message from God.

The confrontation of the OP is fairly important, and should be worded carefully. Given the emotional state you are probably in right after you learn of an affair, that usually means doing it by letter or email, or maybe a phone call. I do not recommend direct confrontations because of the strong temptation you may have to become physically violent.

Whatever method you use to communicate, say something like: “I love [spouse], and am trying to fix what is wrong with our marriage. I believe your relationship with [spouse] is interfering with our efforts to fix our marriage, and I would appreciate it if you would cease all contact with [spouse].” If you are CERTAIN it is a physical affair, you can use the word “affair”, instead of “relationship”. If you have children, you may also say that the OP is contributing to the destruction of a family.

They may laugh at you, but it is important to send that message, respectfully, for several reasons:

1. Because the OP may not know the WS is married. If that is the case, confronting the OP sometimes leads immediately to the end of the affair.
2. Because WS’s usually (almost always?) depict their spouse in a negative way to the OP. They say things like: “My wife doesn’t understand me” or “My husband won’t talk to me”, “My spouse is unconcerned about me and/or our marriage” or “We have an open relationship”, or something worse – you are crazy, controlling, cruel, etc. So, you need to confront the OP in a way that shows you at your best – not crazy, not unconcerned, not controlling, not angry, but rather calm, kind, purposeful, determined and concerned for your spouse and your relationship with them. When you do that, it introduces conflict into their relationship, because there is a conflict between what the OP experiences, and what they have been told.
3. Many WS’s and OP’s minimize the seriousness of their affairs with rationalizations like: “It’s only physical”, or, in the case of an Emotional Affair, “It’s just a close friendship” and “It’s not physical.” The language I have suggested avoids giving them a point to argue, and simply says it is hurting you.
4. In most cases, affairs grow in secret, and they die when exposed.

Remember that affairs are addictions. What happens when you try to take away an addict's fix? Frequently, they get angry. It is fairly common for a WS to get EXTREMELY angry when you expose their affair and confront the OP, and accuse you of trying to destroy them and your marriage and of being a horrible human being, so be prepared for an angry response. It is not a lovebuster, it is fighting for your marriage. You are doing nothing horrible. They are. You are fighting to save your marriage. They are destroying it. You are telling the truth. They are being deceitful. <hr /></blockquote>

Ohh...I don't know what I'm doing anymore. Held my position firm (on not having a third party or an "open" marriage), and now he's avoiding me.....can't even do plan A b/c he won't talk to me.

I am lost.

Talked again this morning....he says he has made a decision--to stay with his family "even though he loves OW". He spent the day yesterday with a mutual (male) friend, and told him of the problems that we (I) have had with intimacy--but left out the fact he had had an EA before this....our friends' advice was "to move on with OW while the kids were still small." Some friend.

I'm numb--I'm losing friends as well as WH. I work with this mutual friend, and today HE is giving me the cold shoulder....and I am now wise enough to not really believe WH when he says he will stay, because he still will not do NC. He has told me that he will tell OW this on Wed, and then "let her push me out of her life". This is not over yet...I guess I have fallen (if that were even possible) down to the level of emotional coldness and asexual freak....

I'm still doing plan A...I still feel that to go back to what was going on is deadly to me. It just seems that with each day, I lose more.

You're doing very well, but keep working on avoiding the LBs. You can't LB -- ever. One part of Plan A is find an acceptable way to express your hurt feelings. Screaming and making disrepectful judgements is not the way to do it. When WS returns to the M, you will need these skills.

You don't know it, yet, but everything you are going through is a *normal* part of the journey/recovery. Just last night, we did something different after an argument. We sat down and talked about it. You wonder how you will be able to change, but the more you implement the principles, the more chance it has of actually sinking in. Eventually, you will turn to better ways of communicating.

Don't worry about what so-called friends are telling WS. It's nothing he hasn't thought himself. I even told FWS that he should go with OW.

Is he willing to go to MC? What about Retrouvaille? You need a way to keep hope alive. These helped me.

Too bad about your friend. I know alot of people don't want to be in the middle. They don't know how to be just a friend. Try someone else or just talk to us.

Wow, I remember talking/thinking the same thing about having an open relationship, but that lasted about 5 seconds. We grew up in a culture that believes a relationship should be monogamous. It would be very hard to be okay with anything else.

If he doesn't want to talk with you, that's okay. Just try to do nice things for him. Cook his meals, put his clothes out, offer him a drink, etc. Just do whatever you do in a loving way.

I never did confront the OW, although I had her name, address, and phone numbers. FWS didn't even know her address. I was afraid of hearing something hurtful. My imagination was doing a pretty good job, I didn't need anything verified. Also, during that time, I really thought something weird would happen, like we'd end up friends. I don't believe that now, but that's what I thought then.

Oh, plan A and being a doormat does not mean agreeing to an open relationship. BS' usually feel like doormats cuz we are being nice to someone who is usually being indifferent to us (if not downright hostile).

How was the zoo? That is exactly the kinds of things you should be doing. Show him the family life he would be missing out on.

My MIL spent a week with us during FWS' A. She was a godsend. My FIL had an A a couple of years ago. When I questioned continuing with Plan A, she convinced me to try a little while longer.

I know having your mom there will help just in terms of the babies. Try to carve out some time for just you and WS.

Do leave SAA out when your mom leaves. I was surprised that FWS actually opened it.

CC: have you read what Harley has to say about vaginismus? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5049a_qa.html

Thanks for the responses....lbc, I'm working HARD on plan A; it's hard when the other party doesn't respond, or even worse, accuses me of playing a game with him. For the past week I have let everything around the house slide, so I think I am going to focus on that, and since he is definitely more of a neat freak than me, maybe that will at least show that I am thinking of him. And making dinner, etc....

The issue with our friend is tricky since I work with him (his office is right next to mine). It's got to be awkward for him, and I can't tell if he just feels sorry for me or blames me for this mess. ANd I know I should leave him out of it, but I have no friends right now, save for my wonderful colleague....It's just hard to think that I have lost yet another person from my life.

I know I have to wait....and that maybe nothing will ever change his feelings of anger and resentment for "lost years"....it's a hard prospect to look forward to, that we may just spend the next how ever many years in this distance, and that he may never let me in again. I played a big part in getting us there, and I have to accept that may be the consequence.

To john--yes, I have read those posts....the problem was that WH really wanted to have kids, so we made a huge mistake; we forced it, solely to have children. And the problem I had never got resolved; it only got worse, that I associated ANY physical contact (hugs, etc) with the pain I felt....I dont know how many doctors I spoke to about this, and most acknowledged it was a problem, but never had the time to really spend with me to figure out ways to deal with it. And WH really saw it as "my problem"--that if I really loved him, it would go away. So there went love, affection, everything--I did not feel safe with him at all.

Well, enough moping for today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thanks for listening, and I'm sorry I keep posting....it;s the only thing that keeps me even keel these days.

Hi CC!

John39 always has wonderful posts! I have taken a lot of his advice from other threads. I would definitely take in consideration about confronting the OW. If she knows that you know, it will make it less of a fantasy for both of them. But if you do decide to confront her please keep in mind that she might think it is a competition. My H. OW thought of me like that. She got extremely jealous when I was in town and she put on the seduction act. Wrote some pretty hot x-rated e-mails to My H. about what she is going to do too him once I was gone! So, Keep it simple and to the point! And be firm with a no nonsense approach.

As for your coworker? If you don't trust him or feel uneasy about him, I would keep your relationship simple. Less is best until you can get grips on this! You may say something and regret it later! I am assuming this is the mutual friend? I know you need someone and I completely understand where you are coming from. I had a large group of friends and I isolated myself and lost contact with them because I was so messed up. Right now, you are in a fog too. I remember this time last year, I didn't know if I was coming or going. It was bad. Kinda like the feeling when you stare off into space when you are tired. You are aware of what is around you but not in it. Does that make sense?

Did you ever think about going to IC? A therapist will help. I need one twice a week. My H. and I had a session tonight and I think it was the most decent one that we had since we started our counseling. Could there be hope???? But anyway, this is something that you cannot handle alone. You need the extra support because it feels....scary!
I know plan A. is long drawn out process. I can't say I have been there but I know. It's the patience that comes along with plan A. that is the key. After you did gesture of plan A. can you journal it? This will help you see the changes in you too. Then you can go back and say; "Well a year ago I would have done this in this situation but now? I am doing this". It will become more real and soon no matter what the outcome is, you just made yourself better!
Let me know if that sound like a plan?

Ali

Sorry mind is all over the place, but your H. is going to question every motive. But I did want to add...do nice things that you would like to do for your h. that you could see yourself doing still in about 70 years from now! Don't do things that you aren't normally comfortable with. For insistance, I hate laundry, So if I pick a general area that I'd do something nice for him in plan A. I wouldn't pick the laundry. Because I would end up being hostile in the end. Then he will definitely feel some deception going on and think it was a game! If you don't like cooking, ask him for his company while you cook. Do it together! Get my drift! We want you to do it right! Not things that might feel like a huge chore for you.

OK nuff, I need sleep! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Good luck to you.

Ali x2

PLease help....told me that OW is probably going to break it off this week....but that his first A has been ongoing all this time (10 years +)....and was with a man...and was physical. Said I pushed him to this because of the physical issue, not because he is confused about sexual orientation. Said he was going to break that off too.

I can't even cry--so many lies, so little responsibility. I'm trying to see where and how I contributed to this, but I don't think I did all this singlehandedly....and if I did, it would be better off if I were dead.

I know to some of you out there it would matter whether it was a man or woman, but to me it is the same....he told me the OW is "taking the decision out of his hands so he doesn't have to make it".

And the blame is on me.....if that is the kind of person I am....I didn't do this, please all of you believe me....I admit to a whole lot of awful mistakes but I did't make him do all of this, I didn't make him lie all of these years....I still want him here--he is my kids father.

I've been tested for STD's during my pregnancies, and I was negative....guess I have to think of that can of worms now....and the OW knew about all of this too.

Please help.

Wow!

I believe it was not you. There is obvioulsy an issue with him if he went to another man for the physicalness. HE IS TRYING TO EASE HIS OWN GUILT BY BLAMING YOU! Don't believe it. He is confused and probably feels ashamed as well.
You are going to need some outside help other than this site. Please come on here and post but you need to get help. This is a huge blow and in my opinion there is more that he is not telling you. You are going to need the extra support since you friends are now scarce.
Are you still teaching? Will you be teaching summer school? Can you take some time off and gather your thoughts together?
By you plan Aing him, he might be feeling really guilty. As hard as this is focus on something to keep you busy. IS your Mother still in??

I will be thinking of you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Ali

I hear you...I just talked to a friend (she has known me since high school but we had fallen out of touch) and she has said everything that you did. I don't know if I can post for a while....too many conflicting thoughts.

We have two children to whom we are both responsible to. For me right now, that is the bottom line.

Thanks for your thoughts and support.

I am so very sorry! Honey, we do not believe this has anything to do with you. He made the decision to be with somone else. He is just trying to justify his behavior, because he knows it's wrong.

We do have to take responsibility for our part, but the other person is responsible, too. Why is he ending all these As? Does he want to stay with you?

The OW knows about the other man? Is that why she is ending the A?

If you decide that you want to stay with him, you will need to go to IC and both of you will have to start MC.

I know you can't see anything good in this, but I believe your WS wants to come clean because if you are to rebuild your M, he wants to know that you could forgive *everything*.

My FWS did the same thing. Near the end of his A, he told me about the A before we were married. I knew he had an inappropriate friendship with a co-worker, but I had no idea that they slept together. It was heartbreaking!
But now I believe this was a step FWS was taking on the road to recovery. He wanted to be truthful about everything.

You need a lot of support right now. Please call someone.

~~~~~~~~~~~ BUMP ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi, everyone...sorry, it's been difficult for me to write lately. I'll try to answer some of the questions you all have asked...lbc, the OW does know about this other A, and I think would still want to be with WH, so no, I don't think she is ending it because of that. In fact, I'm not so sure she is ending it....I have to be realistic about this, because WH is not ready to end it UNLESS SHE TELLS HIM TO. And I can't imagine that she would.

WH is very very mad at me right now, because I had to tell my mom something; otherwise I would be lying to her as well, and I think it's about time that the lies STOPPED. All I told her was that something was wrong (he is canceling a trip this weekend, and I would have had to tell her SOMETHING to explain why he didn't go), and that she may not want to be around us now. Of course, being my mother <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> she didn't quite buy this, and is INSISTING she stay to help out--if nothing than to take the kids out so we can talk. It feels good to be honest, even in this limited way. WH of course is now worried about what my mom thinks...but he was the one who told me that maybe I should say something like this to her instead of lying to her. When I asked him about that, his response was --I didn't expect you to tell her TODAY. When was I going to tell her??? He is supposed to leave TOMORROW!

I don't expect him to suddenly look around and fall in love with me again. Honestly, I'm not sure we can. It's a convenient place for him to be right now--holding on to the anger he has at me for justification of every thing he has done. He asked me something very strange this morning--that if he commits to stay, how will he know that I won't go off and leave him. Wow. When did I lose the right to make decisions? I'm still stumped on that one...I told him that if I make a commitment, I would honor it; I'm not interested in being punitive--I'm interested in making us work. He just shrugged.

I don't think I said anything disrespectful to him, although he is absolutely furious with me, and I guess that's probably not a good sign given that he is going to meet with OW tonight. Strangely enough, I see these as positive signs that I can come out of my emotional lock-down and start dealing with the mess of my life.

Thanks for listening.

Well, just a follow-up...I did call him and told him that I realized how much pain he was in, and that he needs the time to deal with his pain. He seemed to respond, although that was followed by his anger that I would consider the continuing A (the first one) as a breach of trust, and that I had no right to even view in that way when he felt that I pushed him in that direction.

I'm learning. I didn't respond immediately, but took a big deep breath and told him that clearly this continuing A had brought him misery, and that I would like to talk more about it when he felt he could.

We'll see...it's a bit tough to be the punching bag, but given everything, I had better accept that if I want anything to change.

My heart is just breaking for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Hang in there, you are doing so well. Really. Most people would have fallen apart by now. I'm glad you told your mom something. It must be some relief and I'm glad she insisted on staying. Don't worry about WS' being mad. You are taking care of yourself right now. He will get over it when he comes out of the fog. Why was the trip cancelled?

Have you looked for a counselor? Does your job have an EAP program? Please call them.

Don't worry about the love feelings returning quite yet. We have to get the As to end first. And you are actually doing a wonderful Plan A.

My FWS did not ask about me leaving him, but he was concerned that I would never be able to forgive him. He was afraid of always having the A thrown in his face. We can't convince anyone of our intentions before we actually act on them. He will be convinced slowly. When he looks up and you are still there, beside him, fighting for your M.

Can you get to MC? Now that your mom is here, try to get a couple of sessions in.

You're right. Both of you being angry is a good sign. The feelings are coming out. You both will need to heal from this.

Calling him to acknowledge his pain is exactly what he needed to hear. It is so very hard, but you need to try to fulfill WS' needs right now. It will be awhile before he can start addressing yours. You should be so proud of yourself for not LB'ing. Let him vent. Practice validating his feelings.

So what will you do for yourself today? Can you take a bath tonight or stop for a coffee? It's time to figure out what you want out of your life and M. ((hugs))

I'm so scared....you know it may be that nothing changes after tonight, but I'm so scared he will come home and say it's over. Say that there is no hope for a second chance.....I just called him and told him that through all this, I was still on his side, and I think (hope?) he appreciated that. I also said that being on his side didn't change the way I felt, and he indicated he understood that too.

So very scared.

You are doing everything right. It may not feel like it, but you are. The thing is you will survive. Whether it's with him or not. But I believe he will realize what he has with you and will decide to try to rebuild. You cannot control him or what he does, you can only work on yourself.

We were down to FWS looking for an apartment with OW when he finally decided to return. It may look bad for awhile, but this is the best way to recovery.

Be kind to yourself tonight. I will be praying for you.

Well, no change--he is still in fog land. Told me that he wants to go towards a friendship but he was still going to see OW. Wouldn't answer my questions as to whether EA had turned PA (and I suppose there is my answer!). In his mind, I think I'm on trial; but he wants the safety net of OW. I pointed out that there was really no way for our relationship to really heal until no third party was involved, and he was equally adamant about wanting to stay in limbo (my words, not his).

It's weird, I'm actually not angry right now. I told him that this can't be a permanent state, that I would take steps to independence during this time--and then he tries to control how I set up my own finances! I told him I may start looking for another job, and that may mean out of state.

But I'm still doing plan A....and I will stick with this for about 3 months, and then decide what I need to do next. In the meantime, I'm looking forward to some personal growth.....he seems taken aback at my sense of purpose.

More later.

Would anyine object to CC confronting the OW?

CC, I think it is great that you told your Mom. You need to get the A. out in the open. It is great that you start your own financial back ground. I would as hard as it is, try to be patient right now! Tough I know, but when your in the fog(WS). All mean and evil things plus a lot of confusion comes out of it. He is confused and has no idea what he is doing at the time. Yes, he is using that OW as a net. He's a doctor right? I hope he is being professional durning this period!

Have you sat down with his and asked him if he can imagine what his life would be with you out of the picture and real time sets in? If you think about it CC, he had a realtionship with a OM and OW, it is not you. Unfortunately you are the one who is getting a raw deal because you are the one he comes home too. Now is the time for you to think about you and only you. You have to be the root for your beautiful children. You have to start weighing every option that is out there so you can have a plan.

OK, My two year old is begging for my attention.

Keep posting.

Ali

I'm so sorry. You're in for a tough fight. I had to Plan A for 4 1/2 months, but the last month I was asking FWS to leave. You have the right idea. Determine a deadline for Plan B, but don't tell him. Try to Plan A him as well as you can, but be aware, this is gonna be a very hard time for you. Again, you're on the right path -- concentrate on yourself.

Don't give up hope, though. For my FWS, EA became PA a week after d-day. It may seem bleak, but you can't see the future. You can't see that you are laying the foundation for recovery. When the rose-colored glasses come off, he will see the transformation that you are undergoing.

Do this for you. Do this for your children. You WILL recover, with or without him.

As for confronting OW, I didn't realize this was within the MB principles. I think it's a good idea to send an email or letter. If I saw her in person, I would have become enraged.

What is the OWs situation? Who is she? I think you said she is young and still lives at home (same with FWS' OW). What would her parents think about her being involved with a married man with young children? You might consider sending a letter to her parents. Do you have her name and number? I first got OWs number from the cell phone bills. I take care of the finances and FWS was not exactly trying to hide it.

Thanks for all the warm thoughts...it seems as if the situation changes hourly here! About the OW: she is single, but isn't living at home. I have real mixed feelings about the confrontation, because I'm not sure I could do it without flying off the handle, and I read somewhere (maybe one of starfish's posts?) that one must do this with finesse. I'm lacking pretty seriously in finesse right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Today WH called me and wanted to go to lunch. Of course I said yes, and we went and talked. He is all over the place; now he was saying he knows A has to end, that as much as he thinks he can escape, this is no escape, etc. He told me that he needs a lot of physical interaction--not necessarily sex--but hugging, kissing, etc. I told him that at this point, he is not ready to LET me do that, and that I was here when he was ready. Apparently he was a bit shook by the fact that OW was talking about bolting....and I wasn't. I also told him, while I was heartened to hear these things, that real change wasn't going to be possible for us in the current situation, and that I had to protect myself from another round of vacillation and hurt,

About the first A....he has cut it off completely--I saw the note (so I at least know he is capable of writing a NC letter!). This was pathologic and he knows it, and I am pleading with him to get counseling regardless of what happens to us.

As we were about to leave, he noticed that I had my hair cut today, and he said " You know, it looks really good." I replied. " I know" and smiled. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> When I dropped him off, he reached down, took my hand and kissed it. He also asked me if we could go to church together (I had told him that I wanted to go to my colleague's church on Sunday....I'm not particularly religious, but it seemed like a good idea for me).

I'm trying not to get my hopes up; it seems each time I do this I get crushed. I do hope he isn't just playing games with me, but I can't exclude that possibility right now. (And yes, I opened up my own bank account and credit card today! Symbolic steps, maybe, but a step nonetheless).

Let you know more as it happens! Take care to all of you wonderful people out there...

Frustrating not knowing what will happen next! Minute to minute, hour to hour, day to day. Even the next hour feels like a miles stone!

CC, you have got to keep in mind that when the WS is in a fog, it is a game. You have got to be in control and not let the games eat you. Fortunately, my H. is out of the fog so I can give you that advice with confidence.

Ali

Good for you! But you are right. It's not going to be easy for him or for you. Baby steps! Unfortunately, this is all part of the journey.

Yeah, I don't agree with confronting the OW. I was afraid of hearing something really hurtful, but I can see where it would be a good idea to send a note saying you are in love with your husband, you want to save your marriage, and she should do the right thing and step out of the picture. Sometimes they think that the M must be so horrible to force someone to resort to an A.

Very good sign that he wanted to have lunch. See how Plan A works. You do something a little nice and he does something nice and then you feel like doing something nice, etc. All part of ending the A and the love feelings returning.

My FWS also needs lots of affection. Are you sure he is not ready for that? What about a hug? Squeezing his arm? Holding his hand? You need to try to fulfill his ENs however way you can.

The A also took us back to Church. We've always wanted to return, but nothing really forces you to go, you know? But when FWS hit his low point (complete remorse), Church was the first place he wanted to be. We've been going ever since.

Congrats on doing so well. You really do have a wonderful attitude. The ride has not ended, yet, but it sounds like your seatbelt is nice and tight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, it was short lived. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Now he's back to the usual fog talk (or maybe what I heard was ALSO fog talk). I'm actually not upset, since I had been sort of prepared for this response....it will take time and baby steps.

And maybe it can't happen, and I would be ok even then. Sad, but ok.

Dear lbc--I do have my seat belt on, 'cause I know the ride is going to be BUMPY. It's hard not to react to the things he says, good and bad, fog or not, although I know that my position is very clear (and that's about the only comfort I have).

There is a very cynical part of me that looks at what he is doing and thinks : He's at home, not letting me near, and all he sees is the same old pattern--because he doesn't want to change it. He sees responsibilities, the day to day work that has to be done for our kids, the house, etc--because that's all he will let himself see since he pushes me away. Then he goes to OW, and sees goodness and light with no responsibilities and no baggage, and with her focus being 100% on him....why should he come home?

And yet, he knows things ARE changing in the home; I'm taking more responsibility for myself, my finances, my growth...and that doesn't really fit with the picture portrayed above. And then he waffles.

It's so hard to be on this timeline...but it's not a timeline for me to define. I just see him slipping away in his fog, and it's all I can do not to reach over and shake him HARD. But I don't....it's interesting, I don't have the desire anymore to LB. Isn't that strange? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Doing all those LB's hurt ME. I've had enough of that.

Nothing's really changed (I think)...he's at home with the kids now, probably moping around. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Just have to take it one day (one minute?) at a time.

It's time to start focusing on you. Who are you? Who were you before you got married? Who do you want to be? You also want to make sure you are being a good role model for your children. What do you want your children to learn during this time?

Unfortunately, the same work is gonna have to happen whether you stay together or not. If you break up, you will still need to deal with WS. You're gonna have to learn to be friends and make sure you can communicate. That will be very important.

But, remember, it's not over, yet. He is still at home. Why? Because you are doing such a good Plan A. He is starting to realize what he could lose if he left.

He is totally in the fog. A life without the everyday stresses and 3 kids would look good to anyone. Yeah, why should he come home? But he does. Because he has doubts about OW as well or he would be gone already.

What is his relationship history? Did he have alot of relationships before meeting you?

Yes, it does get to be about taking it one minute at a time, because it can change in the next minute. A rollercoaster indeed.

Is your mom still staying with you? Anything fun planned for the weekend?

Well, I'm quite afraid to put this in writing...to get my hopes up...I came back from work yesterday to find WH sitting at the computer. He just looked at me, took a big deep breath, and said " I've got to stop this. I can't continue doing this to our family." He had spent the morning with the kids, and apparently that had crystallized his decision (which he says he knew from the beginning....I don't know!).

So we talked. REALLY talked without the ever present fog...although I'm still not sure if I can trust this. He is going to meet with her tonight to break it off. OR so he says--yeah, I am still afraid to trust him, although I have to admit it does seem like a HUGE weight has been lifted from him. He says he's coming back for the "kids" and his main concern right now is not hurting his kids and not hurting the OW. I'm still really not in this picture--but that's ok, because this is our reality now> We have to work to put each other back into the picture.

He's letting me near him....it's been a LONG time. You know I thought I would be overjoyed--and I am for the kids. But for myself, I am TERRIFIED.

We'll see what happens tonight....we'll see if he can really do this when he sees her. He says he will....we'll just have to see. I have lurked around here enough to know that some NC are not that at all....and I have to tell myself that this may be a fake recovery....although I really do want to believe what he is saying.

Take care to all and have a peaceful weekend!

HI ccyier,

Can you ask him to meet her someplace in public? I think that helps alot, from what I've read here.

You are at a criticle time... do your best plan A right now!! You dont want to give him any excuses to reconsider. Leave the room if you feel you may say something hurtful.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you! - Dru

This is horrible....I think he went over there last night thinking he could tell OW that he had made his decision and leave as friends...well apparently she let him have it. For five hours straight. I think it's over...I think she's gone....and yet all we're left with is anger (both of ours) and hurt.

He tells me to go away, to give him space. When I do this, he tells me I'm not supporting him. He tells me I can never change, and that I have no right to be angry (and I didn't do any LB, but it probably shows on my face).

He doesn't apparently think OW has any right to her anger either.....

I don't think this is over. I don't think he can let her go. I'm steeling for more of the same old fog. And holding on as best as I can to plan A.....

Is this recovery?????

I can only say "hang on" again. I know it's agonizing to go through, but this is all part of the healing that has to happen. You actually posted wonderful news.

WS wants to stay. Yes, right now, he is saying it's because of your children, but you have the tools to bring the love feelings back as well.

You will "know" when the A has ended. By his words, by what he does and by what he doesn't do. I was pretty antsy the first week, but then I started to lower my guard. Keep your eyes and ears open.

You do have a tough job, because he is pushing you away, but then wanting you closer. My advice is to not take the pushing away personally. WS is hurting. He doesn't know anything about Plan A and LB'ing. You have to be strong and try to fulfill ENs as much as possible. Plan A does work, but it doesn't work overnight. It is laying down a foundation for a recovery that might take 2 years.

When he says something hurtful, remember it is the fog. I'm sure his self-esteem is at an all-time low. He is finally revealing everything about himself to you. And he's so afraid you will reject him.

Like Dru said, Plan A like you've never Plan A'd before!

Hi CC,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Is this recovery????? <hr /></blockquote>Not yet, but you're getting there. Stay in Plan A, leave the room if you cant keep from LBing with your face (I know EXACTLY what you mean), and give it some time. It's really rough when they give up the OP. He had all these thoughts about how that would go, and the nerve of her to be angry at him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .

This is the height of the foggy season for you... take what he says at this time with a grain of salt, but see what he does. He DID break up with her, he IS home.

Keep busy as you can with positive, supportive people. Stay in the best plan A you can for a while longer. Dont give him any reason to regret his decision. The real recovery will come after he's gotten over this abit. Right now, she's the cow, while you are bordering on being saintly... keep it that way! He's mad at her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . She's not behaving the way he thinks she should <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . That is so great! He's had a RUDE awakening, and is probably pretty embarassed. Be there for him but dont hover. If he changes his mind from minute to minute about your supporting/hovering over him... go with the flow.

Do your best Plan A AND do what you need to do to keep yourself strong and calm! Be the picture of a wise, strong W. Please take EXTRA care of yourself!! - Dru

Thanks for the good advice...talked to H today and apparently OW called him at work to apologize for yelling at him. Sigh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> He said some stuff about "backing up" to a friendship with her (grrr...didn't say anything though...) . I asked him about where his priorities were--whether he wanted to focus on this "friendship" or whether he wanted to focus on us--that doing both would be very difficult. He was quiet for a moment, and then said that he had made his decision--to stay. Talked again about going to my colleague's church with me, and wanting to go out with me some time later this week....

Still on plan A....still hoping he can see me/us as a better option than OW. ( And boy, do I have a lot to say about OW right now....grrr.... but I won't....). Bought some new clothes today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , and am trying to set some goals for myself in terms of personal growth (somewhat like the questions you asked me, lbc).

I really want NC, but he isn't ready yet, and yes, I have some work to do to show him that he doesn't need her. Plan A, plan A, plan A...but plan A does have an end point, at which point I will DEMAND NC. or go to plan B. But I still think that plan A is the better choice right now.

The timeline isn't mine to set....which drives me bonkers, but it's one of the realities I had better get used to.

What do you mean about timeline? You mean you cannot control what is gonna happen when? Or are you talking about Plan B? In the first case, you are totally right, in the second case, you are the one to decide.

Have you found an MC? Would he agree to a Retrouvaille weekend? I hope you are able to have your date night.

Yeah for the new clothes! Yes, concentrate on you.

And you're right. Plan B should be seen as a last resort. You have a better chance to influence WS when you can see him everyday.

You are doing such a good Plan A. I know this is gonna turn out the way you want.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> apparently OW called him at work to apologize for yelling at him. Sigh<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, but the more he is with you, the more upset she will get. She'll yell again IF your H is really committed to recovery. More time with you is less time with her. Stay strong.

I've seen some time limits on plan A... I think not more than a few months or so before the BS becomes totally drained and could care less if the WS returns. When you start thinking it's not worth it all, it's time to start considering plan B. (if my memory serves... best to read up on all you can!). Take care- Dru

Good points (and nice to meet you Dru! Never even said hello....shame on me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) from both....lbc, when I was talking about a timeline, it was more a sense of frustration of the back and forth nature of things right now....wish that life were more clear cut, but that's not the way life is!

Tonight, H came home and seemed...more himself. More relaxed, more interested in us as a family.....we had a weird conversation though--he is planning on going to OW's house tomorrow "to drop off some books". Hmm...pushed him on this, and he said he was really puzzled by OW reversal--Sat night she let him have it, and today she was acting "ok". I didn't say anything, and he actually asked me "What do you think?" Deep breath....I told him that OW was probably still interested in developing a relationship with him. Then he said " Well, she knows my position. I'm with my family." And then he paused, and said " And I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't see some hope for the two of us".,

I'm taking this one day at at time, and bracing for more lashing tomorrow night....he seemed this clear a few days ago, and then after seeing OW went back into the fog. We'll just have to see.

Take care to all!

You know pedicures and manicures are wonderful feel good therapy too!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I am glad you did something for yourself! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

CC, you are a lot stronger than you realize. I really truly admire that in you. Believe it or not, I have learned a great deal from you.

Right now, being in somewhat of a fog yourself, have you taken the time to sit down and write in private your expectations of your marriage? Because so much was lost, you might need to go back and rethink what you need out of it. Keep them to yourself. Until you are ready to explore them with your H. It might take awhile. But don't forget to add things that you can do in it too!

Patients is very difficult! ESPECIALLY when he is greiving over the other women. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I can't give you much advice on that because I blew up when my H. would mope around and write on MB on how much he was hurt because she was cheating on him! Ironic isn't? You feel so helpless, so degraded, But my admiration goes out to you on how well you handle yourself. Great job!

But please get MC. I might have missed that in a post some where if you are. But when you come out of your fog, brace yourself. The emotions of that is more powerful and very difficult to handle. I think our minds protect us from that deep pain when we first find out that leads us into the fog. I like to think of it like a hurricane. You get hammered the first time, then you're dealing with the first blow. Then you get somewhat where you feel safe. The eye of the storm, you see light and think "Wow! How did I handle that"? Then bam! Here you go again! A whole tidal wave of emotions that are too powerful to control. You need someone. So please get MC or IC!

I will be thinking of you! Stay strong and focused!

Ali

I'm glad you guys are talking about the 'other' relationship. You will need to understand what happened and sometimes when the A has ended FWS does not want to talk about it anymore. He will also see you more as a friend that he can confide in. You can work on the 'spouse' part of it later.

Do guys have anything fun planned for the long weekend? Maybe a family outing?

I second Dru's suggestion. It's not all about the WS. You will need to figure out what you want out of your M.

Fortunately, I didn't have to deal with too much withdrawal. FWS quit drinking 15 years ago cold-turkey and he ended the A the same way. It did bother him that she could walk away so easily. I told him that I was sure she was hurting as well. My therapist said I should not defend OW, but I was just being honest. It is weird to try to comfort your husband about someone else, but that is the difficult path we have chosen.

Thanks ALi and lbc....you're embarrasing me, Ali--I feel anything but strong right now!

I know he is going to see her tonight and all sorts of fears come up....the same old stuff I have talked of before. I know it is not over with OW because he will not/cannot do NC yet....so I'll just have to show him that he doesn't need her in his life. I just cannot trust him ...or her (no surprise there, right?). He's so concerned about "her emotional state"....ooh, just makes me want to retch! (sorry, LB there, but you all can handle it. :-) )

Many of you have asked me about IC and MC, and I wanted to address that. I'm trying to find someone, but I live in a large metropolitan area and I don't want to just open the phone book and wander in--particularly to someone who isn't pro-marriage. H doesn't want either IC or MC, so I'm looking on my own until he is ready. I'm checking out some options through my work, and hopefully when the kids are in their summer school/day care, I'll have more time to go and pursue this. Any advice on this would be welcome!

Hi CC,

I know you probably feel weak but you are not! Believe me! You are enduring one of the most painful things a person can go through and you are still standing!

What about getting a recommendation through your own Doctor? Do go through your local phone book and call some place that has qualified therapist and interview them. Ask tons of questions that you are looking for in a person/therapist.
One of your local hospitals will help you as well.

That must be so hard to deal with knowing that he went to see her. I got confused in one part. He went over there to break it off??? Is that right? I know she had a cow when he tried to do it before. I just wonder if you went with him to his "meetings" with her. Their little fantasy and her disception of you will then became a reality. WOW, here is his wife, type of thing. I am not sugggesting it. But I just wonder!

I hope I helped somewhat. I know it is hard. Try to get involved with activites now that the weather is warm. Hopefully you are not flooded like our state is, But walking is great therapy and you get to be in a zone with out anyone interupting you. That's unless you are walking with someone! But hey, watch out for the tree! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Hang in there. OK! Even though you don't know us personally, we are all supporting you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ali

As many people have said before, the path of a BS trying to recover her/his M is not for wimps!

Unfortunately, WS may not end the A until Plan B. That is pretty much what happened with us. It got to the point where I was asking FWS to leave and he was actively looking for an apartment with OW.

It is very hard to weigh the pros and cons of continuing Plan A or going to Plan B.

Do you have an EAP program at work? That's where I got my recommendations. Also many insurance programs also cover therapists. Your insurance plan may have a list already. I was able to find someone close to work that I could see during lunch. You might also say something to your boss in regards of needing some extra time to see a counselor.

Hi....just to clarify for Ali; H says that he wants to move into a friendship with OW, but he's not ready for NC (although he did acknowledge, for the first time, the potential problems with the situation). It's very strange--he does seem more grounded with me, and wants to do more as a couple. He has even said he knows this relationship will eventually fade...he's just not ready to do it cold turkey, I guess. And there is always the question for me: Do I believe him? Do I believe this, knowing the ups and downs we have been through over the past three weeks......hmmm.....

There's improvement here, and although it feels like a lifetime, it really has only been 3 weeks since I found out....I think that the texts say that plan A should go for about 2-3 months, so I think I will try that--of course, if this "friendship" ratchets back up (which it EASILY could) or if he starts lying to me again, I'm mentally preparing myself for plan B. But the thing is, he spends most of his time with ME, because I live in his house and take care of his kids....so I am planning to make each moment count!

You know the strangest thing--he is still really mad at me about the checking account (I set up my own checking account and credit card). He has been pleading with me to get rid of it --"it's just symbolic, and besides, I'm not leaving you". Of course, I'm not getting rid of it--EVER.

You are the second person to tell me about the EAP plan...I have terrible health insurance through my employer, but I am trying to check into that.

Oh dear--baby complaining...more later.

CC: I read your thread and my heart is breaking for you. We should really get together and talk offline. I was in plan A for 6 months, all while WH was going back and forth between working on us, and being REALLY REALLY MAD at me, navigating toward the OW, and back to me, etc. His A was physical, but because she was such a long distance away, it is really more emotional, which, I think is worse. I would have rathered it be a just a physical, one night stand thing, than this close, intimate, "love" or "friendship" he thinks he has with her.

I am keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.

I'm guessing it is very difficult for anyone to give up an A, that is why there is a Plan A and B. I kinda knew in my heart that my FWS would end it cold-turkey. He is an extreme type of personality, but most people are not like that.

Plan A allows the WS to see all of the good in the M. They usually forget about that right before the A and they certainly change history during it.

When you guys talk about the A again, you might question him on why he thinks the A would eventually fade. This is not his soulmate? You're lucky, but hearing about the flaws in the A will make you stronger. Remember not to LB, gloat, or tell him you knew she was a piece of trash.

You're right. Three weeks is only the beginning. A good Plan A will last a couple of months at least. But remember, this is also a time to concentrate on you. Bring some joy into your life, because heartache is not far away.

Oh I had a thought this morning about WS' anger. I read it on this site yesterday and my FWS also said it. Very often they are angry because they feel the BS did not take the problems in the M seriously until they had an A. Even though they were in the wrong to go outside the M, we still have to validate their feelings and complaints.

I hope you will be doing something fun this weekend. A date maybe?

Just wanted to write in response to your letters....SerendipiT, thanks for the lovely note--and no, I'm not the least offended (quite the opposite, actually...). I'll set up an email account and let you know the particulars.
Lbc--You hit it on the head, as usual! He is FURIOUS that it took this for me to wake up. Having said that, he also says it's nice to see me awake...

We have a date tonight.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It's so strange--he keeps acting as if we are really together--talking about finances, and how "we" need to do this and that...I just looked at him and said " so there is a we?" He told me of course.....and yet he still maintains this "friendship" with OW, but he seems much more committed to us. I told him that I didn't want to have him come to me next month and say, we tried, but no go. He looked at me as if I were crazy, and said "I am staying. Period."

Very confusing....I am having trouble with my internet provider at home, so I can't post sometimes, but I will be reading and will let you know what happens.

cc,

If you hadn't had real issues that you needed to address in the marriage...a shorter Plan A would be the way to go since he seems so comfortable on the fence. But sorry chere...you're going to have to go the distance (3 months) no matter what he does because you have demonstrate consistently that you are serious about taking his needs into account or he is not going to believe the marriage is an attractive alternative. Right now, he's still expecting you to fall back into old bad habits...so don't do it. Keep absolute control over those LBs. Continue to tell him how the affair feels to you....make it about you. Continue to communicate to him that no contact is pretty essential to ever reaching a healthy marriage...but don't give ultimatims.

I'm watching your back chere.

Hey starfish....great to hear you again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thanks for the insight; I think it's too short a time as well to abandon plan A--and truthfully, I think a lot of progress has been made (at least for me) in a short time. Hopefully, more will come....I suppose this is what happens when you are open to change.....
Thanks for the concern, and I'll let you know what happens.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, here is a quick update .... WH still thinks he can maintain a "friendship" with OW and stay with me...says he can love two people at the same time. He said some interesting things at dinner the other night....said that part of the reason he is still maintaining contact is because he feels that she needs him for validation. (!!) It is definitely a knight in shining armor complex....I know, because that is exactly how WE started so many years ago.

He wants to go have dinner with her, and I was noncommittal--I told him that I could not tell him that this was "ok"--and then he got mad at me. Is it a LB to express feelings ? I didn't get mad, and I wasn't disrespectful at all. He basically told me that if I really loved him I would grant him this space. I told him that I had been so emotionally dishonest with him over all of these years that the expression of these feelings, however painful for him, WAS an expression of love for him. He also gave the usual line "WHy now, after all of these years", and I repeated that I am trying to take responsibility, the responsibility that I fully admit I ran away from for a long time (Would that he would take the responsibility too....but he's not ready)

He is reaching out more and more to me--this morning, he was withdrawn, but then reached out for a hug-- which is good....but I still consider the A to be ongoing (he doesn't).

But you know....I don't want him to "rescue" me--I do not need the knight in shining armor fallacy. I need a life partner--on an equal footing. I wonder if I'll ever get that.... from him.

Just to clarify....he says he has backed up into a friendship with her, but that there are still "feelings" for her that he will not pursue. I reread my post and that's not so clear from what I've written---probably because I don't know if I believe it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Ok, went from noncomittal to....somewhat testy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> He's off to dinner with her ( a dinner with a friend, as he calls it. Whatever.) He is telling me on one hand that he needs time to "wrap this up" (I have NO idea what that means) and on the other hand that this friendship may be a "thorn in my side" for the rest of my life. He again asked me why I was acting now, why did it take this....and finally, I had an answer--an answer I knew was lurking inside but I didn't have the words until now. I have run away from committment in almost every relationship I have had--I have been very badly burned by people (WH being one of them)--and I shut down. I could do the same thing now---but I CANNOT. I have to face this--and yes, it is awful that it took this to get me out of my own fog, but I cannot give up now--I at least have to look back and say that I sincerely tried to change myself and the relationship.

What WH wants to say is because of this history, I have no right to have an emotional response to what's going on now. My view is that it is GOOD I have an emotional response....and I am not expressing it in a disrespectful way, but I don't think that what I have done means that I have no right to feelings and emotions...particularly if I want to change. WH also thinks that I have no right to have choices regarding the marriage ( ie if I want to leave)--he said that he would be very angry if " you leave after changing into the person I always wanted you to be". What to make of that statement?

I'm so confused....part of me, honestly, is really ready to throw up my hands and just leave. That's the old part of me...the part that needs to change. I just don't know if I can live with this shadow over my head for the rest of my life (shadow being the friendship of the OW).

Any and all thoughts welcome (star*fish, if you 're out there, feel free to let me have it!)

Dear, dear CC,

I've read your story and my heart aches for you, honey. I was lucky in that my H immediately ended the affair so I don't feel I can give you any useful Plan A advice but...when he says this:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />a dinner with a friend, as he calls it <hr /></blockquote>why don't you tell him to give you a second to change and you'll join him/them? What "friend" would object to that?!

My thoughts and prayers are with you, honey. You can get through this. Remember--it is very TEMPORARY.

Natalie

Natalie--Your post did something I wasn't sure I could ever do again...LAUGH! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> The next time he goes out with OW....I may not say it, but I sure will be thinking of your post.

Thanks so much...I'm using this place as a personal diary/log, and you all have kind enough to respond...and take time out of your hectic days. Thanks for such kindness.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (((((cc))))))

Natalie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You've had an amazing epiphany! You may not have known how to have a healthy relationship before, but you are learning now. And if WS can get his act together, you will have that new relationship with him. However, this is still important for you, because if by some chance, you do seek out another R, you need to work on how you relate to others.

All the work you are doing will transform and heal you in lots of ways.

And don't let WS try to knock you off that path. My FWS knows that I need to learn to express myself better, but he doesn't necessarily like all of the feelings that come out. Tough. This is not about only hearing the good stuff. In order to have a good M, we have to know *everything* that is going on with the other person.

Interesting that he doesn't want you to leave. He means that he's afraid of committing, because he doesn't want to be left in the dust if you decide you cannot forgive him. My FWS kept insisting that I would not be able to stay with him because of the A. Just be cool and consistent. Reassure him. Be gentle and soothing.

You will NOT live with the shadow of the OW. You will NOT tolerate WS' friendship with her. We are talking about Plan A here. It is for ending the A. It is for achieving NC. If that doesn't work, there is Plan B, but you are doing so well in Plan A. Really, you are!

So, have you found an IC, yet? Did you do anything for yourself this past weekend?

FWS is similar in that I do believe he can love two people at the same time, but I was not going to live with that. Do exactly what starfish suggests. Make this about you. IF he wants an M with you, this is not negotiable.

You are very smart to consider the A is be ongoing. As long as there is contact, it is an A.

I have a similar dynamic in my M. I'm the first person that FWS was with that had her own home, car, and career. I didn't need him for those things. He might need to be a knight-in-shining-armor, but there is a *reason* he chose me to marry.

And there is a reason, your WS chose you.

But we do need to work on that 'needing' part. We may not need our H for typical things, but they do need to feel that they are important in our lives.

You are doing wonderfully!

I hopeyou are right....WH is home, ignoring me, and I feel completely worthless and hopeless. I tried to reach out, and he just snarls at me. I try to give him space, and he asks me why I'm avoiding him. I don;t think anything has changed....I'm not sure where this hostility is coming from...actually, he's probably still upset over my outburst on Sunday (read the other thread for the sordid details....). I appreciate your confidence, but right now I don't feel I'm doing ANYTHING right.

But no LB's today.....

No change....says he needs space and time to heal (that's fine) and that he can't talk to me so he will talk to her (not fine). But he also says he is not going to be the one who leaves the marriage....and that if I really loved him, I wouldn't be making ultimatims. He also said that maybe I would be doing him a favor if I left--that he can't leave because (and I'm quoting him) : " I can handle being miserable better than you can." To him, my line about no third parties involved is an ultimatim.

I'm stumbling here....got upset AGAIN this morning, had WH scream at me from his cell phone....I am getting very numb. I can't do anything right. And it is SO hard for me to fake it in front of people who don't know...and it is SO easy for him to do just that.

No, I'm not giving up.....although I'm so beaten down now that I can't really function at home very well. I will give him space and time.....I just don't know how much more I can TAKE of this.

I'm whining....sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I read my posts and I sound so pathetic....I used to be a pretty strong person. I guess this is really the test of that, right?

Ack! I can't believe I missed your other thread. Honey, that's why Plan A is so difficult. These things will happen, but I assure you, it is all part of the journey.

Although, you need to stop all LBs, I'm an example of someone who had to struggle with LBs all through Plan A. Your plan did not fail, because you trying again.

I just wanted to let you know that I noticed I LB'd when I wasn't on MB (i.e. weekends). Try to visit at least once a day. Even if I didn't post, I would get inspiration from other threads. I think it keeps BS' on an even keel.

Again, I ask you to sign up for Retrouvaille. You guys are not emotionally connected and that's what you need. The weekend gives you a jump start. It doesn't end the A, but it reminds both of you of what you had together.

I will try to introduce a ray of hope. I went through a torturous Plan A as well. Back and forth and pretty much sure that FWS would choose OW. But you know what? I believe the 4 1/2 months of Plan A meant that withdrawal was very minimal. You will have to go through this pain in one form or another. It just happens that yours is before the A has ended.

He is angry because he knows he is wrong and he doesn't want to leave you. What is your financial situation? Why hasn't he left, yet? BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO.

Don't worry. He says he can't talk to you, but he is saying something. He wants to connect. He is desperate to connect with you.

I'm very surprised that he actually said he is not leaving the M. My FWS really didn't want to leave our home, either. I assumed it was the comfortable lifestyle we have, but maybe they don't want to make the decision. They don't want to take the responsibility of ending their M?

Whatever the reason, you can use this to your advantage. He is still at home, so Plan A can work. Many WS' leave on d-day. You have a chance.

Don't worry that he thinks your requirements for an M is an ultimatum. He is not thinking clearly. Just calmly state that you will not tolerate him having a girlfriend. End of discussion.

It is time to regroup. Time to look to yourself. Take care of yourself. It's not going to be easy to fight this battle, but it can be done. And you may not know it, but you are very strong indeed. You are still standing and you are still trying. I assure you not many people can do this. ((hugs))

What do I need to do to convince you to move to Texas, lbc? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (that's where I live)...

Thanks for the words of encouragement...it's a very strange situation that we're in. WH says he has made a choice for the marriage and that he is not leaving. On the other hand, he says he needs this "friendship" with OW to get him through this time of "healing". If this were really the case, he wouldn't have to lie to me about his meetings with her...and if it were truly just a "friendship" he would not have to go to her house. So in my book, the A is ongoing, whether or not he has made a decision.

I've decided I have to take care of myself now....all my anger is doing is hurting ME. I can't eat, I can't sleep--all that has to stop. The saddest part is that while he may be healing, I am drifting away.....it's hard for me to invest in this so-called marriage, but no, I'm not leaving yet. In taking care of myself, maybe I can learn to heal and forgive as well. We'll see.

Trying to control LB's, trying to find peace.....

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

CC - from your other thread:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />It's interesting...I did ask him what he would do if the tables were reversed.....and he said he would be happy for me. <hr /></blockquote>From your present thread:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />On May 8 you wrote: but when I opened my email today (my husband and I share an account), he had left a letter to his friend open where he described that we were "ok" but that he still dreams of a future with this other woman. <hr /></blockquote>From today's post:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />No change....says he needs space and time to heal (that's fine) and that he can't talk to me so he will talk to her (not fine). But he also says he is not going to be the one who leaves the marriage....and that if I really loved him, I wouldn't be making ultimatims. He also said that maybe I would be doing him a favor if I left--that he can't leave because (and I'm quoting him) : " I can handle being miserable better than you can." To him, my line about no third parties involved is an ultimatim. (In a sense it is, but what it really is IS asking him to be faithful to his own covenant of exclusivity when he made the decision to get married and "take himself off the market." It is 'until death do us part', not 'until I no longer think I feel in love.' Feelings are a part of marriage, but they don't define a covenant. ) <hr /></blockquote>CC - What I am going to say may sound a bit contradictory, but bear with me for a little bit.

There are several dynamics going on here and your "situation" is not "cut and dried." You admittedly set the stage with emotional coldness, etc. that left your husband "unfulfilled" as a man and as a husband. Someone else has entered the picture to fill that void and you are reacting out of panic and fear (in short, you got hit with the big "2x4" yourself) and woke up to what you were doing in your marriage.

You have compounded things with the LB's, but they are understandable due the intensity of the emotional trauma. It DOES take a huge amount of effort and self-control to "Plan A" and eliminate Love Busters, but you MUST do that because you have CHOSEN to attempt to save your marriage. Fair or unfair, it is a burden that those of us who want to recover our marriages, instead of running directly to divorce court, make. It is NOT optional and the emotions are not an excuse for "bad behavior." "Bad behavior" is was led, at least in part, to where you find yourself today, so it should be obvious that the "old way" of doing things didn't work and must be changed if you want a different outcome.

Your husband does not believe at this point that you CAN change. The truth and reality of that change must begin with you, and you alone. Then, add time and consistant behavior over time, and you will begin to establish the truth of the change. Remember, what he sees and remembers is the "old you." If you want to hang onto the "old you" you can, but it will very likely end your marriage.

Next, your husband is deep in classical fogland. He knows you and he knows what buttons to push. Hence his comment about "being happy for you." It also serves the dual purpose of justifying, in his mind, his behavior that he also knows is wrong. It's twisting the idea of "if you love me you should be happy for whatever makes me happy."

That's nonsense, but it's how fogland twists truths to justify illicit behavior.

You are not yet ready, IMHO, for a Plan B approach. You need to implement, and hold to, a strong Plan A for 3 to 6 months at a minimum. I know hard it seems to do that and that those months seem like they "might as well be forever." It does seem almost an impossibility when you can't look back with 20-20 hindsight and see how things have improved...you are at the beginning right now.

You are looking for progress, not a finished recovery. You already have some progress in his statement about not leaving the marriage. But, foggy as it is, he still hasn't made the connection about marriage being an exclusive arrangement BECAUSE he doesn't have to make that choice right now. He is able to "cakewalk" and attempt to make it seem like you are the "bad guy" if the marriage fails.

Hence, there WILL likely come a time (and only you will know when that time has been reached) when you will have to issue an ultimatum.

Ultimatums are very risky and YOU need to be ready for the consquence that he might choose other than what you want.

The ultimatum is simple, a marriage is between ONE husband and ONE wife, period. Though you love him, you will not "share" him with another woman and the outcome will be HIS decision, not yours. He has already chosen another woman (i.e., his "dreams" he mentioned in the email) and he is living on borrowed time. That time is how much longer he can "borrow" your patience and how long your Love Bank will withstand his disrespectful judgments and emotional blackmail before it reaches "bankrupt."

The time to implement Plan B is BEFORE your Love Bank hits zero.

Yes it hurts. It hurt immensely the day that I told my wife to pack her bags and move out immediately. It's not what I wanted, but I had tried it pretty much the same way you are trying right now. Contact continued and there was NO progress. Whenever there seemed to be a little progress, the next contact wiped it out. It went on for 2.5 months like that and I was an emotional basketcase for most of it. You can read my whole story if you are ever interested, just say the word and I'll give you the links to them.

In fact, you CANNOT make any deposits in his Love Bank until AFTER No Contact has been established and he has gone through withdrawal. Oh sure, you can make some progress, but that progress is really in the changes you make in YOURSELF. His "valuing" those changes will have to wait though, until after withdrawal ends.

Yes, demanding and expecting NO Contact is your RIGHT as his wife and as the Betrayed Spouse. But you can make such demands in non-confrontational ways. A simple, "It's your choice, but I will not share my husband with another woman. If you choose to remain in contact with her, then do so in another place because you will have chosen to divorce me and I love you enough to "let you go" if that is what you want. Stay, and you choose fidelity to the marriage and to me. It may be tough for a while, but I will be there to share the pain and struggle with you. I am committed to the marriage and to you, committed to making changes in myself that will help both of us, but it does take two people, both committing, to make a marriage. So I have chosen the marriage, now you must choose and I will live with your choice."

When you feel ready to "go to that step" be certain in your mind that you will be able (even if it hurts a lot) to live with a choice on his part to leave the marriage. That, too, is something that you need to work on so that should it be necessary, you CAN move on with your life and your children.

God bless.

Wow....definitely a lot to think about, and I thank you for spending so much time to talk and think about my situation. I'm trying with all my might to rein myself in and go to plan A for the next few months....what my WH is looking for is affirmation that it is "ok" to maintain contact, and if I read you correctly, it is perfectly within plan A to hold to my position--respectfully and with love.

I read the posts you all have written and you bring some clarity of purpose to my mind...clarity that unfortunately disappers sometimes when I listen to WH.

Honestly, I'm terrified of plan B...and I don't really think it is appropriate at this point (I'm in agreement with you , FH). I'm just trying to find the courage to really stick with plan A...and steel myself for plan B if and when I need it.

On a lighter note...I'm embarrased to admit, even with the name, that I thought FH was FEMALE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Talk about preconceived notions.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks so very much...and yes, I would like to read your story, if you have the time to send the posts....

<blockquote>quote:<hr />On a lighter note...I'm embarrased to admit, even with the name, that I thought FH was FEMALE! Talk about preconceived notions....<hr /></blockquote>Sheesh!!! Does that mean that I HAVE gotten "in touch" with my "feminine side"?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Thanks so very much...and yes, I would like to read your story, if you have the time to send the posts.... <hr /></blockquote>No problem. Here are the links to my first two posts (2 years ago). They are fairly long, but you might be able to glean a few helpful things for yourself from them.

First timer - help needed

Miracles happen when you are obedient to God

God bless.

FH, You just seem to be really in touch with yourself, feminine side or whatever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I read your old posts....and I'm floored. There are patterns there I am seeing, although what I am going through is nothing like your story, and the strength that both you and your wife have...it's inspirational.

It's interesting--after all the storms and drama, after all of these recent posts, I am starting to feel....free. And slowly, I'm learning how to forgive. I don't know where I stand in terms of faith ( I was raised in a different religious system, although I don't really practice that system either), but the themes of compassion and forgiveness really resonate with me.

Yesterday could have been a really bad day...but it wasn't. I really was horrid yesterday morning, and then I called him to apologize (he was mad at me, and pretty much hung up on me). Later that day, I had to call him about something else, and he was not having a good day. He said : You know, I really need a hug right now. And I said: Well, can I send you one over the phone now, because I am. He was absolutely speechless. He was still hostile last night, but I gave him the space he needed, and slept for the first time in about 3 weeks. This morning, he just leaned over and put his head on my shoulder, and I kissed him on the head. He still left without saying goodbye, but it's ok--at least for the time being, I'm not angry, I'm focused on what I need to do, and I will continue to draw strength from people like you. Hopefully, I can also start giving back to people like you as well...

Savor the small victories.

Interesting that yesterday I went and looked at my old threads, as well. I'll post one that might help.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=002122

An important skill to learn is to emotionally detach and I wonder if that is what you are doing. I am not very religious, either, but I began to see that this process requires some kind of faith. Faith in yourself, faith in your spouse, and faith in your marriage.

Good for you! You are reaching out to WS when it would be much easier to shut him out. (And would be more logical as well.) But that is what marriage requires. Sometimes one of us has to step up to the plate and bring the M back to center.

What did you do for yourself today?

And I would consider moving to Texas if FWS didn't have his heart set on Hawaii. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hmm...Texas or Hawaii? Texas or Hawaii? I see your FWS's point.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

lbc, I read your post---WOW, we sound like twins!!! The same issues--being the "tough" one, finding it easier to emotionally isolate/detach, career orientation (I'm trained as a scientist) --even the issues of ethnicity (I'm Indian, not Hispanic, but there are some similarities in the family situations).....as I said before, I'm not a particularly religious person, but coincidences like this do make me wonder...and be grateful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I called him over lunch...and told him that I really appreciated him reaching out this morning. He said "What are you talking about?" and I told him ....and said it meant a lot to me. I think he was completely taken aback...and then made a point that he would be coming home tonight.

I think I am emotionally detaching--not from the situation (as I USED to do) but from the anger, and for the first time, really looking at where HE is right now. He is miserable...you would think that having both of us in place would make him happy...but he is not. As sad as it is, I might have to face the very real situation that he "chooses" OW....to make him truly happy. We'll just have to see.

Well, had a grueling conversation last night..he finally admitted that the A was NOT over ( I knew that; I'm glad he does too). He is still in the fog--twisting my words, giving me "tests" to see if I "really" love him....but this time, I'm not in the fog. I told him that because I loved him, I had to be honest with him, because if we were going to rebuild, it had to be based on the truth--and that for me is that no third party can be involved. He flipped out, said I had no right to say that ( I held my tongue)....said that he could not trust me, and why did it take this to wake me up ( I agreed with him on this, and that I would have to earn his trust back. No argument from me!). He said I was threatening him, that I would take his kids away......he even went on an attack of my friends--said that they were clueless and that they wouldn't support me if "they knew the real story". Ok.

You know, I'm not angry.....He is so lost. If what it takes is for me to carry this marriage right now, so be it. He said that he would "probably" choose "the kids" (our marriage) over OW, and that he knew this situation could not last forever. He basically admitted that he was waiting for one of us (me or OW) to make the decision. I told him regardless of WHO makes the decision, at this point there would be pain and loss involved.....and that as much as I love him and am willing to work on us, that the situation is not static. I'm changing too....and he admitted that this scared him, that maybe if HE committed, I would be the one to leave. I told him if he could commit, I would be in the trenches....and that I'm not planning on going anywhere....at least right now ( I didn't tell him the last part...but I did tell him that I wasn't going to stay in neutral this whole time....I think he knows that).

I don't know what he will do.....I think I "failed" his test, but I have spent a lifetime answering to what I think other people wanted instead of really looking at myself and being honest. And if that's not the person he wants to be with....so be it. But he has to take some responsibility here...I'm still in plan A, and I will be here for as long as it takes....until a decision has to be made, when the support that I give him turns into an enabling pattern for him to avoid responsibility for his life and happiness. I'm ready.

Wow! You're gonna make me cry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You get it! I can feel your strong, quiet resolve in your words. We can't control the other person. Before the A, during the A, and after the A. Even during recovery, you will have to find that quiet space where you know *you* will be okay no matter what happens.

He is scared big time! He has no idea what is going on. But he sees you strong, calm, unwavering. He is desperate to be like that. Give him the reason to stay. Make the M the obvious choice. What is something nice you could do for him today?

Now, it's time to shift the focus to you. Have you been kind to yourself lately? Is there something you used to enjoy that you haven't done in awhile? Do it this weekend!

How are the kids doing? I don't think I know their ages. How are they reacting? How are you holding up?

Hey...good to hear from you! I sent him an email today, telling him how much I appreciated our conversations, and that, even if it's painful, I need to hear more of what he has to say...and he responded in kind. We'll see....

I'm doing....ok. I think " I get it" although its hard; I feel terribly lonely (oh dear, the whining has started! Batten down the hatches!) but I reread the posts here and try to focus on positive thoughts.

It's funny you ask what I am doing for myself.....once upon a time (before WH) I used to play music....classical music. I seriously considered majoring in music, but was discouraged by my family (sigh). It was something that used to bring my such joy and peace--interestingly, WH always used to pooh-pooh my feelings about music, and he never shared my interest in it (although apparently OW also likes classical music, and now he's developed a taste. Good for him--he will see what he has been missing musically. :-)) So, I have started playing again (I play classical guitar, viola, and piano. Not all at the same time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

Slowly, I will find what I have lost. I was sharing with a good friend of mine the lyrics to a Sarah McLaughlan song --I can't remember the title, but there is a phrase that really resonates with me:
" you have hurt me more than I ever could have imagined/you made my world stand still/but in that stillness, there was a freedom/I never felt before...."

I'm sure I'll be back here, either raging, whining, or sulking (probably all at the same time!) But I think the core is there.....

Take care, lbc, and have a wonderful weekend!

ps--my kids: I have a girl who is 3.5 years old, and a boy who is 11 months old. They are the joy of my life.

Just some more ramblings...the weekend, strangely enough, wasn't so bad. WH keeps saying he is not leaving, that he had to deal with this "dilemma" and that he has "to nudge this towards a friendship...." although the last statement was followed by his acknowledgement that OW may not agree to this...and neither would I. I didn't say much during this...just listened. There were some signs of a thaw towards me, which of course was quickly followed by the (now) usual coldness and isolation from me. He's not sure if this "new" me is real...can't say I blame him for protecting himself.

It's just so awkward in the house; we have somewhat of a forced interaction--neither one of us wanting to disrupt the seemingly peaceful state we're now in. It's exhausting, because I find myself constantly second guessing every move I make, or every move HE makes...and it's terribly lonely.

I know this will take time...and I need to start taking better care of myself physically so that I have the strength to do this. I have trouble eating and sleeping, and with two small kids, I find that I am wiped out all the time.

More later...

I'm so happy you are getting back to your music! What a wonderful gift for your children. Do you think you can take time off of work? Looking back, I probably should have taken 3 months off, but I was not looking forward to sitting around at home while FWS was with OW.

Have you found an IC, yet? This is really a tough path and you need all the support you can find. Do you have a friend you can confide in who won't think you are nuts for trying to save your M?

Again, I want to say that you are doing wonderfully. You can't see Plan A 'working', but it is doing its job. You may not see the results for a couple of months, but trust that your efforts will pay off.

But start concentrating on you. What do you want your life to be like? What do you want to be like?

Ugh on WS trying to get the A back to a friendship. Do you have a deadline for Plan A? Plan B may be the only thing that will convince him to go NC.

Try to work on not second-guessing. If you are to recover your M, you cannot second-guess. You will need to tell WS exactly where you are mentally and emotionally. Start being who you are. You are a good and beautiful person -- find her again -- show her off! You don't need to second-guess anything. If WS can't see what he has right in front of him, it is his loss.

Do you have anyone to watch the kids for an hour or two? You need to get a massage or at least a coffee. In the middle of the A, I had FWS watch our daughter while I went out on the town with the girls. The funny thing is that OW was going out that night, too. I guess we were both getting tired of waiting around for FWS.

So what is the plan for this week? Hang in there, sweetie!

Hi...thanks for the words of encouragement...I'm absolutely TERRIBLE about second-guessing, and I have to try to stop it.

I do have a time limit for plan A...and it's a bit longer than most people here have suggested, but I think I'm going to give it until Christmas time...and here's why:
a) I don't think three months will be enough to show him that I have changed...because of all the stuff in our past.
b) I am seeing signs of progress (as miserably slow as they are)....he has backed off of seeing her, and himself has acknowledged that maintaining a friendship may not be possible.
c) I really am not ready to give up on this as soon as three months (although six months of this may be more agony than I can bear...)

Now, of course, I don't have a crystal ball--if the lies start again, if he ratchets up the intensity again...then I would probably reconsider. You know, he sounds fine WHEN HE DOESN"T SEE HER...and then when he does, we start the same path all over again. I am pretty sure that they are still in email contact, but I have decided that, for a while, I am not going to ask him about their relationship....but instead I want to focus on OUR relationship.

He is not the only one who has a choice here. And he realizes that (he told me this). Whenever I fall prey to the old fears of him leaving me (which he actually says he won't do), I try to remember this....

And deep down, yes, I suspect that someone will have to push him off the fence. Either me or OW. He's getting comfortable sitting there!

I am trying to take better care of myself-- I started writing in a journal (I used to years ago, and stopped for some reason).

And I'll leave on a funny note--on Saturday, I received a call whose ID wasn't available on the caller ID...it turned out to be one of those silly customer satisfaction surveys (I had recently had a flat tire, and went to have it fixed). I took the call in the back bedroom, and didn't think much of it. Well, WH apparently DID; came upstairs where I was with the kids, and started asking me questions about the phone call!! " Who was it? Why were they calling from out of state? ".

Does he think I am having an affair??? Good grief....

You know what? I was actually gonna say that I think FWS' A ended because it was Christmas time. You might have the right idea. I think WS' can't stand the idea of ruining Christmas for their babies, etc. Also, Christmas promotes the whole 'family' thing.

The longer you Plan A the better, but make sure you take care of yourself. Monitor your LB'ing. If it gets to be too much, you can rethink your plan. It was so hard for me -- I ended up asking FWS to leave.

I'm glad you can see the progress. Sometimes it's invisible. You really don't know what he is saying to himself. How many times do we have positive thoughts about our partners, but we forget to say them? But I know you will see the A end. I just have a good feeling about it.

The thing is that the longer WS is at home and on the fence, the worse that is for OW. At first, they can understand why the sneaking around and limited contact, but after awhile they start wondering how long it's gonna last. Who is OW? Does she want a long-term relationship with WS?

FWS' OW did and that was her undoing. The 'perfect' OW is satisfied with *whatever* crumbs are thrown her way. That is the role she should be playing if she wants to be in the picture long-term. The thing is that most start dreaming of a full-time relationship and even marriage. Hey, who can blame them -- they are in love.

But because of that, every time WS goes home, is a dagger in her heart. The doubts start creeping in. If he really loved me, would he treat me like this? This is the beginning of the end for them. And Plan A just seals their fate.

I love that he was suspicious of you! Oh they are so in the fog, they don't know which way is up. Another sign that he still *cares*. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You are sounding pretty good in such a difficult position. Maybe you should make some goals for yourself for the rest of the year. Have you read any other books on infidelity? I've heard that "Not Just Friends" is very good. I never got to pick that up. It might help to get different ideas to try during this time.

I'm so impressed with the work you've done so far!

I'm SO glad to see your post, lbc--H came home in a BAD mood, and I felt like the proverbial doormat--almost slipped into an LB, caught myself, and then said very slowly : I know you are tired tonight, and you should get to bed as soon as possible. And I was SO good tonight, even though he hardly said two words to me --and this in front of a friend of ours! So I put on the good act....and I was FURIOUS inside.

Then I went out (to get baby food) and cursed the whole way there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> At least it wasn't at him.....

Each day....is a new journey, isn't it? Take care, lbc....so you're a SoCal girl huh? Saw your post on the other thread...I blew it and told everyone I was from Texas. The insults are still ringing in my ears... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I lived in the Bay Area for four years for school...

Just to follow up....about OW. I'm not exactly sure what she wants; I know she is VERY lonely, and probably this contact, as wrong as it is, is better than none. Like I have said before, I'm really not that upset at her..sure, I wish she would do "the right thing", but again, it's another chance for WH to avoid the responsibility of the actions HE chose.

I hope, at some time, OW will think about what she really wants...and whether that's even possible with a married man.

There is a catch here...her work contract expires soon, and she has applied for other jobs. So she may leave..and I think that is what WH is waiting for--again, another chance to avoid making a decision.

And this is what is killing him...he will hurt someone in this process. He HAS hurt people in this process...he HAS hurt himself in this process. And all of this deceit, to himself, to me, even to OW--it's changing him into a person that I don't even recognize--a cold, sometimes heartless person who is just immersed in himself. And his pain.

This is going to take a LONG time to undo....

You are doing so well! Oh, I used to scream in the car, too. Get it all out in your journal, etc. Just don't LB!

I'm glad you are checking out other threads. Even though people may be in different places, sometimes you get a little bit of help somewhere. BS' need so much!

I didn't catch the TX insults. Hey, my parents were born there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> FWS is from San Francisco so we go up pretty often.

During the A, I did not blame OW, either. I saw her as young and naive. I was actually afraid to talk to her, cuz I thought we might actually become friends. Weird, huh? But the thing is, WS' and OWs are not any different than any of us. That will be your key to recovery over and over again.

I hope she ends up moving. FWS' OW got transferred to another building during their A. FWS loves 'signs' and I mentioned that maybe that meant he is supposed to work on our M. Hey, you have to use whatever you can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Surprisingly, you will both feel like different people going through this journey. And that will be something for you to remember. He will not be the same person you married and you know what? That is good, because your M was not working very well before. You will both need to change.

Oh...I hate writing this, but I have met the OW...and I could so easily be friends with her. I know what WH sees in her....and again, I'm not so much angry with her as disappointed in WH...and yes, angry with him.

Last night was tough. WH has had a really rough week at work, and I've been trying to give the "relationship" talk a break...just support him through the week without introducing any other stuff. It's just hard, because he is dealing (or not) with the situation by piling on the work...getting lost in his work, I guess. So, very gingerly, I asked him how he was, and made the observation that he was a bit uncomfortable at home. He flinched, and basically ducked the conversation--said he didn't want to talk about it while he was so tired.

I knew that...but I was so tired of being treated like a doormat for the whole week. I held my tongue, told him I understood, and that I would put our daughter to sleep so he could go down and go to bed early. Then, we got a phone call from some of my extended family, and WH talked to them...and I just felt so sick listening to him talk as if everything were ok here (I know, what was he supposed to do? Tell them the truth?).

So, after wrestling with the little girl (who wanted desperately to stay AWAKE and chat with mommy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ), I went into the bedroom, changed, and got into bed. Decided it was better to go to sleep than to provoke any kind of fight, which would have been completely unproductive. WH comes in, and sits on the bed...and tries to make small talk! Asks me if I want a snack, etc...and I did respond very nicely to this...no LB, not to worry!
I just don't know what to make of this...this morning, he leaned over, kissed me goodbye, and went to work (he had to leave at 4 am, so I might have dreamt this, but I'm pretty sure it happened).
To live with a stranger in the house is so demoralizing...and I'm sure this is how HE felt for so long. I read some of the posts from FWS here, and I cringe, knowing that this is probably how WH is feeling--feeling like he may come back to the marriage but lose all chances of love. I know, because I'm starting to feel the same way.

Sorry, this is sort of a whiny post...but I would rather get it out of my system that let it sit and fester inside.

I had met OW once before, too. She was just one of FWS' employees at the time. I couldn't even remember her face, so I was just imagining this Latin goddess on earth. I saw a pic of her later and she's okay. Younger and thinner than me, but not drop dead gorgeous.

An A attacks your self-esteem so much that you think you are just no competition for the OW. However, we can have dignity and class through this whole horrible ordeal. For one thing, I never badmouthed OW and she never did the same to me. FWS said we were actually empathizing with each other at some points during the A.

She never sent any nasty messages or tried to call our home (until NC day). I could have sent her emails or waited for her after work (I know someone who had their friends beat up the OW!), but I never did. The closest I got was to call her cell when I was trying to get in touch with FWS.

And she has not tried to contact FWS once after NC. I just thank god for that.

I remember FWS having work problems during the A as well (he was trying to avoid laying off someone). I tried my best to listen, but at that time, I wasn't working too hard to meet his ENs. I would just wonder why he called me instead of OW.

Your WS is coming home. And you are part of what makes *home* for him. That is a very powerful force. Be confident in that. Be confident that the A will end and you will rebuild your M to what you both want.

Write, write, write! You have decided to pursue the difficult path of Plan A. You can still express your hurt and anger. It is the LBs that we are trying to extinguish. When you recover your M, there will be hurt and anger along the way, too. We are human after all, so the goal is find a constructive way to express it.

Oh god, do I remember telling FWS that I was fulfilling ENs without any reciprocity for 3 months (Plan A). His answer is that he was doing it for 3 years. Ouch!!

WS is a stranger right now. He doesn't even know who he is. But slowly he will start to put the pieces back together and he will realize that he couldn't have done without you!

Yes, they do think that returning to the M is the 'right' thing to do, but they assume that their life will be devoid of love and passion.

I can't reassure WS, but I can reassure you that it does come back. Not overnight and not all at once, but slowly, you start seeing each other with new eyes. And you realize how close you were to losing it all. And you learn to step back when you get too close to the edge again. And you learn to be calm and patient. And you learn to love again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I just want to let you know that we are going out of town tomorrow. I will try to login during the weekend, but in case I don't get a chance, I will see you on Monday. Have a wonderful weekend!

I think I will call you the Plan A queen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Have a great weekend, lbc....hmmm, I think a better name for me might be "plan A cinderella".

You don't know how much I look forward to reading your encouraging posts...particularly when I feel anything but encouraged. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have to add this! But I hate Texas! That is where H's. Affair took place. Anything Texas makes me want to puke. It is a trigger thing!

Plan A. as long as you can! Good for you CC. Glad to see that you are willing to put 100% into it. I really admire you for that!

Ali

By the way, Gulp! What part of Texas are you from? And do you like Texas? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hi Ali! I have some ambivalent feelings about Texas myself...I'm transplanted (grew up both in Ohio and Texas) , and actually vowed as a teenager that I would never return. So much for that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I know what you mean...I went to school in California, which I loved...until I found out that there was a California connection for both of WH A's ...and now I feel somewhat sour about the place. Which is too bad, because it really is a beautiful state.

I live in the DFW area....not as pretty as the Piney Woods where some of the MB posters are from....my WH also hates Texas. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Maybe we will move someday...

Thanks for the good wishes....I'm trying to keep my hopes reasonable without getting too demoralized. Sometimes he seems on the verge of coming back and giving OW up...and then the fog comes back. On a good note, he has not gone over to her place (that I know of?) in at least two weeks. You take what you can get, sometimes...

I'm afraid to write this down...afraid to believe what he is saying and yet hoping that it's true! After all the grueling conversations, we have had a quiet week, but in the past two days, I have noticed a change in WH. More content to be at home, interested in my opinion (?!?!?), more willing to reach out. And I have given him space and time, and tried to be as supportive as I could, without smothering him.

Tonight, he came home looking wiped out. I asked him what was up, and he said, "well, I was just getting yelled at by a person you don't like very much.". Ok... He said that OW had called him, and he had told her that he was staying with US this weekend, and didn't really volunteer to go over to her place, etc. Apparently she lost it.

So WH and I talked....he said he realized that what we had, although it had many problems, had some very special qualities to it as well....and strangely, he actually felt good about how we were interacting. He said he could see the changes in me, and it was wonderful to see.

Then he said he was in the process of letting go....he still wants the friendship but I think he is realizing how difficult that would be...for everyone. And he wrote her a letter to that end...not exactly a NC letter, but he's getting there. AND HE DID IT! NO ONE DID IT FOR HIM! I saw the letter that he wrote....again, not the NC letter I need, but I'm still only 1 full month into plan A--there's still a way to go.

I'm wiser now...I don't think this is over yet, and it probably will be a long and protracted mess. He talks of a future with us....of working on our relationship.....and I so desperately want to believe him. And I told him that...there was some hesitation on my part given the track record--what if OW calls/writes back and is contrite, or just pretends the yelling episode didn't happen? He actually told me that he would force this issue so that no one would misunderstand.

I don't want to get my hopes up...because I don't want to get hurt. I guess what I am seeing, for the first time, is an acknowledgement of responsibility from him. Let's see if it continues, or if it is just another bump in this road....I'm not being pessimistic; I'm trying to learn how to be realistic.

I really don't know WHAT is going on here....

Friday night, WH came home--apparently OW let him have it for not helping her move (she is moving CLOSER to us. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) On Saturday, they exchanged heated emails, and by Sunday, she called him with some story about needing his help to unpack. So he went....but to make a long story short, he came back VERY early. Told me that he told her that the "affair" was over, but that if they were to remain friends, she needed to understand.

This is the weird part, that after all this drama on her part, she does a complete 180--says she ok with the situation, that she understands, and that she would like to be friends with me.....

What????????

I do see changes in WH....and we have had some wonderful, honest conversations--and I didn't hold back from telling him some truths (nicely, of course). I feel closer to him than I have in a very long time. And he seems to be more grounded...more like the person I fell in love with. Very little fog talk, if any. PLanning for a future even....although I hold back a bit, out of fear and insecurity, I suppose.

BUT WHAT IS GOING ON WITH OW? She is playing a game! And I don't want to play!

I'm still in plan A....I still think it's a bit too soon to make ultimatums, particularly since he IS talking to me...and he told me that she basically made a pass at him Sunday night...and he walked away and came home. HE called me that night, and for the first time in a long while, he told me he loved me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It's not over...it's just getting very strange. I do feel strong though....if he is "cake-walking" I will find out, and there will be a limit. I would rather, honestly, have this drag out and know exactly where I stand than to have a false recovery and have him lie to me. He really wants to maintain a "friendship'...I will seehow this plays out over a timeline.

Honesty is always better....even if it hurts.

I'm so happy to hear about this turn of events. It is all going according to plan -- plan A! Congrats. Yes, it won't be easy, but you are on the path. You are doing everything right. WS will have to step up to the plate, but you are *helping* him, supporting him. It will be very hard for him to give OW up *cold turkey* but you are making it easier for him. You are giving him every reason to do it!

Don't worry about OW. She is desperate. It doesn't matter who or if anyone is playing a game. You have a plan. Don't deviate from it and everyone will be reacting to you.

I suspect that WS' OW may be similar to my FWS' OW. I was lucky that he seemed to choose someone with 'principles'. It might hard to see that for an OW, but the way she conducted herself in the context of the A could be admired. They (our OWs) did not expect to find themselves in this situation. Maybe they didn't really have any expectations of the relationship at first. Maybe they assumed that if a married person is involved with someone else, it must mean the M is dead. But they fell in love. And that is their downfall and part of our recovery.

I'm guessing that OW is changing her tune, because she does care for WS. She does love him and is starting to realize that she did not expect to find herself in the position of the OW. I remember FWS' OW would get upset because she felt pushed aside as if she were the OW -- duh!

This is the roundabout way of saying that I think if WS goes NC, she will, too.

Pour it on, girl! Plan A like you've never Plan A'd before. Did WS fill out the EN questionaire? If you don't feel comfortable asking him, have you tried to guess at his ENs yourself? Have you been fulfilling them? What else can you do to fulfill them?

I sincerely hope OW is serious about not wanting to interfere. Just continue to take the position that neither of you should have any contact with her ever again -- for the sake of your M.

Will WS consider MC? Can you go to Retrouvaille? You need to capitalize on this opportunity!

I believe most cakemen don't mean to do it. They are just caught in the fog. Don't doubt yourself or what you have accomplished here! He is not playing a game. He is a hurt man who has a long road of *personal* recovery ahead of him.

You are right, though. You are not in recovery until NC. Like I said, your FWS will be going through withdrawal *before* NC. Hang on tight!

Are you having fun? One piece of advice I got about recovery is to remember to lighten up. I tend to be serious when I'm stressed and heaven knows, this is a very stressful situation. So remember to play around a little. Have fun with your husband, tease him, etc.

And I'm so happy to hear how well you are doing. See, you are the Plan A Queen!

Do you know what a class act you are? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It's such a confusing road to tread right now....but things are definitely getting better ( I think). He is allowing me to get closer, and I think we are both fulfilling needs that haven't been met for a long time.

But there is a part of me that is afraid to really believe this....that this may be "false", and that OW may not let go. I think it is true what you are saying about her; it's just that she has said some very nasty things about me lately...which I guess is understandable...and strangely, WH defended me !

I try to put myself in her position....and think that maybe WH is trying to let go gently. And then old fears return and I think maybe they are BOTH playing games with me....when I get paranoid like this, I head straight to my journal, write it all down, and leave it alone! He asked me if I could be friends with her, and I immediately said "NO". I think this hurt him....later I explained that it was just too soon for me--two weeks ago he wanted a divorce. The landscape just changed so suddenly, and I'm still reeling (even if no one else apparently is! actually, maybe they just deal with it differently...)

It's hard for me to lighten up, but I'm trying...last night we looked at an art magazine ..and made fun of all the "strange" art that we saw. Juvenile, but it made us both laugh, and that felt good.

PLan A is really not the problem...he is making it so easy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> What's hard is keeping the paranoia in check---wanting to confide in him and he in me, but really afraid that when I'm the most vulnerable, the world will come crashing down again. But this was my big problem for so long--it is a new feeling for me to wear my feelings on my sleeve, and even in other relationships (friends) I am doing this more--and people are responding to me. I had no idea how isolated and depressed I had become.

He still isn't interested in MC....but maybe he needs to deal with OW first. i still think it would be very helpful for us.

Okay, I want to throw something out here that is not part of the MB principles, so please tread carefully. My FIL had an EA (possibly PA) a couple of years ago. When we told MIL that FWS was having an A, she was very supportive of me and Plan A. In her situation, though, she knew nothing of MB. At the time of the FILs A, FWS did send MIL to his old therapist and the therapist was very supportive of MILs desire to stay in the M. Most ICs (mine included) don't like this tact.

Anyways, at the end of FIL's A, MIL had no idea if NC was happening or not. All she knew is that the calls were lessening, etc. Until finally one day she decided that she was not going to live in fear anymore. She was going to take her M back and she engaged fully. To this day, she has no idea when the A ended, but their M is in recovery and they are very happy.

What I want to say is that even though MB principles say NC must happen, an NC letter must be sent, etc., there are other paths to recovery. You will know when NC has occured. You will be able to feel it. Just like now, you're not too sure, probably because it hasn't happened yet.

When FWS apologized for the A, I had no idea if he intended to initate NC. I didn't ask or push. But he told me that she was not calling or sending messages. A week went by and I was still not sure about letting my guard down when she called for the last time.

My FWS never sent an NC letter, but I believe he has not been in contact for close to 6 months.

One time FWS agreed with the notion that an A is like an addiction. Our MC would not continue until the A had ended and FWS said, "Well, if the A is ended, isn't that the goal?" He likened the A to an addiction that needs to be replaced by something else, slowly but surely.

MOST therapists do not agree with this model, however. They say stop the behavior (drinking, A, whatever) and then we'll start working on the problems.

I just wanted to throw that out there to show that there can be different roads to recovery, but the fundamental element is that both parties must be working on it.

I get the sense that you are at the beginning of your recovery. You will find that there are ups and downs, stops and starts, but slowly you will see progress, changes.

It's okay to be apprehensive. This is part of your personal recovery and unfortunately down the road, you will wonder if you made the right choice. But that just means you are healing.

Plan A is about survival. When you are in recovery and you have some breathing room, you will have to make your own personal committment to your M. And that will be the beginning for *both* of you.

Try not to worry about the OW. When nasty things come out of her mouth, it is only a reflection of her. And it will be part of the decision when WS ends contact. Always take the high road. Having empathy for someone else not only makes you look good, but makes you feel very humble as well.

Oh gosh. During the A, I thought I could be friends with OW. Now, I would tear her head off if I ever met her again. Can you imagine if we divorced? I would probably still be dealing with her -- ugh!

The art magazine is just perfect. Do more of that! I have to admit I'm not playful enough. Something for me to work on as well.

If Plan A and LB'ing are not a problem, then you're halfway there! You are just waiting for WS to step up and I think it's just a matter of time. Don't let up on Plan A, though!

I believe the true benefit of the MB principles is that this is a personal recovery as well as a marital one. Each of us has to heal in some way when we've been touched by infidelity. It gives us a chance to step back and figure out if there is some way we could improve ourselves.

If WS is not interested in MC, will he read recovery books?

Thanks so much for the insight....yes, I'm sure that some would say that what I am doing is not exactly in accordance with the principles espoused here...yet I do feel that this is the beginning of a recovery...

WH went to see her for dinner last night; described their meeting as "happy/sad" and asked me how I was. I answered very honestly--"lonely". He is moving in his way to end/stop the affair, and I will not rush him on that. The idea of a false recovery based on my insistence....and on my timeline....seems rather selfish and altogether unappealing to me.

But I am lonely. He is here, and yes, things are much better, but in such a short span of time everything got turned upside down. I go from being happy to sad to angry in a matter of MINUTES these days, and I'm trying very hard not to subject WH to all of these mood shifts. I'm lonely because in my mind, I'm not sure if he really wants to be with me. I miss my best friend. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Ok, enough self-pity.....things are getting better, not just for us, but for me too. I just have to deal with my own roller coaster.

I think there will come a time when you will not be able to tolerate the dinners. For WS to fully engage in the M, there has to be NC. But I think you will know when the time is right to kick it up a notch. Plan B is the last resort. You will have to make sure you don't LB before Plan B starts. It has to come out of left field. BUT the best chances for your M is for WS to come home every night.

It will all depend on how much you can withstand without losing your love for WS. Please pay attention to yourself during this tough time.

Yeah, you don't want a mopey WS if he is forced to go NC, but that only begins the withdrawal that is needed. He can't see it, yet, but his heart will disentangle from the feelings that he has for OW, but that won't happen for 3 or 6 months after NC. And it won't begin until NC.

But you are right. I'm so glad I didn't have to do too much 'consoling' at the end of the A. Ugh!

Unfortunately, you will have those doubts of his love for you for awhile, yet. I still do, but then I remember all of the loving things my FWS has done for me and I'm reassured.

It actually happened last night. We went to a store that happened to be across the street from a hotel that FWS used to go to with OW. I take the sad moment and acknowledge it. I embrace the fear and then I look at FWS again. And I wonder how I would be feeling if I were him. It would kill me to think I did something that could *never* be erased. I wonder if his pain is worse than mine. And I realize that no one would stay unless they absolutely loved you.

And the same is true for you. WS thinks he is in love with OW. He will discover that he had true love in front of him all this time.

Reach out when you have those low moments. Have you told anyone that your M is in trouble? Maybe you don't have to say exactly what is going on, but it helps if someone knows you are hurting.

((hugs)) to you!

I completely agree-there will come a time where I will have to draw a line....and he knows this--he himself has admitted that. Again, I just don't quite feel it's time for plan B; and part of that reluctance is that, just as he needs to see changes in me, I need to see changes in him.

Don't worry--I have a timeline for what I need....and part of that timeline is trying to show him respect (I know, I don't exactly feel the reciprocal yet, but one party has to start) and see what it is he does. I know the risk of him going back to her is really high right now (although he denies this; he keeps saying it's over, but....), and yet I know if I were to demand NC now, he might do it--but still sneak around because he felt that I boxed him into a corner. At least at this point, he tells me what is going on.... I think....

As I said before, the plan A isn't really that hard, and I haven't really felt like LB's,, but there will come a point, as you said, where I will have had enough.

Let's hope he beats me to it, and comes back fully to our life.

Hello---weekend was actually pretty good, although it didn't start out that way. WH went out for coffee with OW on Friday, and came home grumpy (because it's really over? who knows). I got cranky too--REALLY felt like a doormat, and wondered (not for the first time) if maybe I should be the one out, since I was starting to become a zombie. On Saturday, we went out to get some pizza, and he basically said that OW was "ok" with the situation, and doing well, and that he felt better about us than he had in a while.

Oh dear...I couldn't take it. Very respectfully, I told him that I was NOT ok, that just weeks ago he told me all of this stuff and wanted a divorce, and now I am wondering if I can live my life this way with this shadow over my head, and maybe I should be the one to gracefully (or not) bow out..HE FREAKED OUT! I honestly didn't tell him this for "revenge"; I just couldn't pretend anymore. He told me he NEVER wanted a divorce, that he was very committed to us, that he saw changes for the better....

And the rest of the weekend was much better. Now, part of it is due to the fact that OW is out of town....so I'm bracing myself for the same rollercoaster when she returns.

lbc, if you are out there, I've been thinking a lot about your MIL/FIL situation...and I can see why your MIL did what she did. And I think this is where I'm teetering--I can throw myself 100% back into building the marriage instead of worrying about shadows, and run the risk of getting smashed--and in a sense, I'm already doing this. But I can't deny that I'm holding back a bit, because I don't want to get hurt, because there is a part of my brain that keeps saying "how many times are you going to be so gullible!".

With all respect to the MB philosophy (which has worked wonderfully for me!), there probably isn't any one "right" way of negotiating this path (there are plenty of "wrong" ways, though!).

Just thinking aloud...hope you had a good weekend!

I'm still here! Tomorrow is 6 months of NC and I guess I've been a bit more introspective.

I think grumpy means no one is happy. OW is not happy, you are not happy, and WS is not happy. I think it means that WS knows something will have to give.

I'm glad you are telling him how you really feel. I'm glad you are telling him that you may be the one to bow out. Like you said, it's not to get a reaction from WS, but you are just telling your truth. He needs to understand the consequences of his actions and he doesn't realize that this is also withdrawing units from OW's LBank as well.

I just want to reassure you that Plan A is working, but you will have to be careful that the continued contact does not drain your love for WS. Unfortunately, that's what happens when contact goes for too long. There are not many of us that can live like that for months on end. We are not saints!

You know, the question is not whether you can fully reengage into your M, the question is whether you can Plan A. FWS kept asking me for changes during the A, but how can you make that leap when he is involved with someone else? It just can't be done.

You are talking about throwing yourself 100% into rebuilding your M. That is admirable, but this is not the right time. The right time is when the A has ended. All you need to concentrate on is Plan A. And remember a big part of that is taking care of yourself, finding some joy in your life.

Are you seeing WS re-engaging? I believe this is a slow path. As you plan A, WS re-engages a bit more, contact lessons, and then *you* will feel comfortable in working on the M even more.

You are uncertain about rebuilding the M, because you can *feel* WS has not fully returned. I would have to ask MIL, but my guess is that she didn't let go of her fears until about a year after d-day.

Have you considered counseling with the Harleys? I'm not an expert by any means and I was wondering if they might have a different perspective on your situation. Maybe they will tell you to hold your course.

Hey, good to hear from you, lbc--congrats on the 6 months!!!

I have thought a lot about what you have said. It is a very strange situation; in some ways, what we have now is much better than what we ever had, in terms of the honesty and yes, even the emotional connection. I guess that's what I meant by "throwing myself into the marriage". The really strange part (at least for me) is the fact that both WH (FWH, according to him!) and OW both feel that it is over, and they are moving on. So, am I the only one with the problem here??

I DO see WH engaging with me, and with us as a family. Sunday was a very good day, and yet I kept second-guessing it.....you are right; he knows something will have to give, and the really grating part is that, as usual, he is waiting for someone else to make that decision.

I had some very very good advice from starfish and ForeverHers.....and they both told me that due to the conditions that led to this mess, I really would be short-changing everything if I didn't give plan A at least 3 months...but like you said, I can feel the resolve weakening at times. It's not that I want to LB; it's more that I get tired of the game and want to leave. And that is basically what I told WH.

Have more to say, but little girl and boy want their mommy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I had some very very good advice from starfish and ForeverHers.....and they both told me that due to the conditions that led to this mess, I really would be short-changing everything if I didn't give plan A at least 3 months...but like you said, I can feel the resolve weakening at times. It's not that I want to LB; it's more that I get tired of the game and want to leave. And that is basically what I told WH. <hr /></blockquote>cciyer - yes, it IS tiring. He is continuing in the affair and in disrespecting you. BUT, the GOAL is what you must keep in focus to help you get through the tough times. You are already feeling more confident (seems strange to say that doesn't it?). Your talk with your husband about "maybe just giving up and leaving" is just the sort of thing that you should be doing. This is NOT a permanent solution and he needs to know that. He CANNOT have both of you. Someone IS going to get hurt. Adultery. That is NOT a "victimless crime."

You managed, IMHO, to get across that idea in a very matter-of-fact, yet loving way. That is what he needs to hear. "You love him enough to wait, but not forever. Marriage MEANS choosing one person to the exclusion of ALL others, especially those to whom you had some past (or in this case, current) feelings for."

You have chosen him, and you cannot force him to chose you. But just as in the "dating world of singles", you won't wait forever or "cling" to someone who cannot "be a man" and choose, no matter how hard it might seem.

God bless. Stay the course. YOU ARE DOING GREAT!

Thanks for the boost, FH--sometimes I think maybe I am the only one with a problem ! And yet, I saw how cranky WH was after coming back from seeing her for coffee, and yes, I think he KNOWS a decision is looming in the near future.

Maybe I'm being delusional, but I do see him engaging more with us as a family, with me as his wife...and it's not hostile at home. He himself told me that "he wasn't playing both sides of the fence"; yet he looked somewhat pained as he said it, so I KNOW the thought has crossed his mind that it really looks that way to me.

As I said, right now I believe OW is out of town...so this may all be an illusion, and we'll return to the same old stuff when she gets back into town. She apparently tells him that he is the only one who has ever accepted her for who she is....sigh.....this is like candy for my "want to rescue everyone in the world" WH.....

I don't want to be rescued---I want to GROW. WITH HIM. And as you said, FH, I chose him--but I can't make him choose me. Nor am I going to try to guess and pretend to the person that he "wants". I need to accept MYSELF for who I am....and then we will see what happens.

Take care, FH! Thanks for stopping by... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh, I'm so glad someone else posted. It's hard to know what is right in this situation. On one hand, people say the A must end and you need to do whatever in your power to accomplish that. On the other hand, Plan A is about meeting ENs, etc.

I think your situation does need Plan A, though. In ours, FWS was not sure for awhile that he wanted the M. In that case, I heard Plan B is recommended.

In your case, WS is trying to end the A and you are making sure he has every reason to end it.

Oh, I think I know what you mean now. WS and OW seem okay with the situation as it stands. They have dinner or coffee a couple of times a week. It seems it's only you that is clamoring for contact to end, etc. I see.

Don't worry about being the only one with a problem. That's okay! That is your truth. And if WS wasn't walking around in a fog, he would know that a marriage is not three people.

Unfortunately, Plan A means you are the only one fighting for the M. It sucks and it's so incredibly hard, so make sure you are taking care of yourself. When the A did finally end, FWS thanked me for staying.

I don't believe many WS' plan the way things go. It's just the fog. They are not trying to have their cake and eat it, too, it just happens that way. So you are just nudging them in the right direction.

Oh god, that is the exact same dynamic between FWS and OW. He felt he had helped OWs self-esteem in much the same way as your WS. He was actually afraid she would 'act out' if their A ended by going out with other men. Tough.

But we have to recognize that our Hs chose us for a reason. And I believe one of the most important is that we are not dependent victims. Yes, my FWS is attracted to saving others, but he has said he couldn't do it 24/7. Your WS chose you, because he felt secure in your relationship and he knew he could completely trust you with your children.

In terms of 'wanting to leave', you might try addressing these feelings. Plan A does mean that you should be concentrating on yourself. Perhaps you can find a way to 'leave'. I'm talking about doing something different, picking up a book, making a new friend.

Also, to counteract those feelings, know that this has a deadline. You might not have the exact date in mind, but know that this situation will end and you will be the one to end if necessary. Be confident in that. Yes, you will leave, but not before you have tried everything in your power to make your M work.

Stay strong, sweetie. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hey...wanted to give you an update. Apparently they are going out for dinner again tomorrow....and again, I told him how I felt about this. This was a tough conversation; I told him that I wanted to work on US, but he had to come to some sort of closure with OW. He asked me if I would divorce him over "this friendship"...and I told him that I would not live my life under a shadow permanently--I don't think that anything I did in the past prevents me from fully reaching out to life and embracing it. What I DIDN'T say was that he was willing to risk the loss of my feelings by maintaining this friendship. I did say that I was struggling, and I didn't want to live with this constant stress forever. Again, he panicked....said he would "never forgive" me if I left him (???) and that he has been so happy with the changes that he has seen in me.

I told him that he should view this conversation as part of those "good changes"--that complete honesty, as painful as it is, is part of a healthy relationship--one that we have not had in a while. And that just as he was looking for changes in me, I was looking for the same in him (he DID NOT like that, but that's ok). He went back to the usual defenses " Why did it take this? You don't have a right to feel this way because of what you did", but it sounded much weaker, and even he realized that he could not dictate what I should or should not feel.

Did well, but lost it at the end and cried for a bit in bed (yeah, does this count as an LB? if so, I goofed, but couldn't help it). It's not a game on my part....it's exercising my right to LIVE and communicate.

On a different note--yes, I'm hijacking my own thread!--I read your update lbc--wow. This road isn't easy for ANYONE, is it? It's so wonderful that, even though you seem to be well on your way to recovery, you still visit this board, and pay attention to sorry individuals like me.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As always, looking forward to hearing all responses! I should really move this thread somewhere else, but I like the continuity--it's kind of like my own journal to mark progress (if any...)

You are doing very well, cc. I'm glad you told him that he is continuing to hurt and disrespect you. And crying is not LB'ing. He needs to see what he is doing to you. You want to stay away from yelling and disrepectful judgements, but crying is expressing your own pain. Not an LB.

I believe you did everything right in your conversation last night. This is coming to a head and you're handling yourself perfectly.

He is starting to sound like cakeman and that is only going to damage his relationship with you and OW. Does he talk about how OW is feeling with this new 'arrangement'?

WS' don't understand that honesty is a two-way street. In order to regain emotional intimacy, both of you need to tell the truth. Unfortunately, he may not like all of your truth, but that is the only road to the M that you both want.

Thanks for your kind words. I know some updates are pretty effusive, but I just wrote what was true for us. There are really alot of changes I need to work on and I know I'm not quite there, yet.

This place was a lifeline for me in those dark days of Plan A. I would be at the end of my rope, I'd post, and someone would encourage me to hang on a little while longer.

I guess the major thing I've learned is that you really have no idea how your relationship can change. You can't see it from where you are standing, so it's important for those of us further down the road to say, "Yes, it is very different down here, just keep moving forward." And I guess that is why I'm still here. I want to give that encouragement to others and sometimes I need to hear that from those that are further along in recovery.

I think the "General Questions" forum has more visitors. "Plan A/B" doesn't seem to be moving very much lately.

WEll, a funny update....my husband is a physician, and today is his call day....well, he emailed me, saying that he has already received 3 different "calls" to the hospital after work today (very unusual for a weekday)...and that tonight may be a "working night" (ie can't make his dinner with OW).

Gosh. Darn. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That was petty, but it felt good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I told him that, if he missed his dinner, there is plenty of food at home, and that it sounded like it would be a long night, and I might be asleep when he came home, and how sorry I would be not to see him. (All true, and said very nicely).

I'm starting to believe in divine intervention... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

May have slipped a bit tonight....called WH because he seemed to be having a tough day, and all he did was dump on me. I really felt like a doormat, and then he got mad because " I was sending him weird vibes". HUng up (I didn;t hang up on him, just decided I had better stop this conversation), then decided I had better call back....and this conversation wasn't much better.

I told him that he never seemed that enthusiastic to hear from me; it felt more like a chore. He denied this, and then when I asked him what time he would be home tonight, was somewhat evasive. I got a bit fed up and told him that I knew where he was going--he told me--and all I was asking was for something less vague. Then he got all bent out of shape and accused me of checking up on him.

Actually, that was never my intention at all.....you know, most times when I know he is seeing her, I panic--will he come home, etc. Tonight, I am feeling nothing. Even worse, I actually had a really nice evening with my kids....by myself. I don't want to emotionally detach from him, and yet, he clings to " all the things you did to me" argument for a justification of everything he does now. And his battle cry is sounding weaker and weaker....and I struggle against the distance that is growing in my heart. I struggle to maintain the connection (maybe that's why I "picked the fight" although I did not LB.).

It is coming to a head....I left him a letter on the bathroom sink, with an apology--for starting this type of conversation when we were both frazzled and tired. Bad timing on my part.

But....do I really want to be with someone who takes me for granted? Who will hold all of my imperfections against me but can't/won't look at his? Who thinks somehow that I "deserve" to be unhappy since he was for so many years (and yes, I was too!) ? If that is the case, why doesn't he let ME go?? Why the veiled threat of " I will never forgive you if you leave"? Why would he want me to stay in a situation that causes me such grief...if what he says is true--that he loves me.

He asked me the same questions before, and after much grief, I WAS ready to let him go...and he chose to stay. But I still don't think that what I did means that I have to live life as a martyr. And I certainly don't think that he is completely free of responsibility towards this marriage. And I am deathly afraid that if I stay like this, I might end up like him....and seek attention and companionship somewhere else. There is no point causing anyone that type of grief, having experienced it myself.

I don't want to terminate my marriage---far from it---but I also think sometimes that as much as he says he didn't like the person I was before, there was a certain comfort in the fact that I would never question him, and always defer to his opinion....and I'm not doing that anymore.

Yeesh, such a long post. Now I can go to bed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It is so very hard. We are suffering and not getting many ENs fulfilled, but we have to keep giving and giving. As others like to say: Plan A is not for wimps!

But you are doing very well. I can tell because you say that you had fun with your kids without WS. You are getting stronger as each day passes. It's important that you get to the point that no matter what happens, you know you will do fine. That is what I'm hearing in your writing. Your self-esteem will only help you do a good Plan A, traverse a better recovery, and create a wonderful M.

I have a question: does WS have a pattern of 'dumping' on you throughout your M? Does it make you cringe or do you usually handle it pretty well. I'm wondering cuz my FWS and I are opposite of most couples in this regard. He is the emoter, I'm the logical one.

He likes to vent to me and feels loved when I can just listen and tell him he is doing a great job. That is so hard for me, though. I just think, "Here we go again!", but I have to work on validating his feelings.

Perhaps 'dumping' is an EN for your WS and you might look at how you can respond differently next time. What do you think?

So something changed between the time he said he wouldn't be able to make the dinner with OW and later in the day?

Why don't you want to emotionally detach to what he is doing? I'm not saying you don't care or that you detach from your feelings, but ED (emotionally detaching) is actually a skill that benefits all BS'.

WS' are all over the place. They don't know which way is up, so how the heck can we know where we stand? Their feelings change depending on who they are talking to. BS' in Plan A need to jump off of WS' rollercoaster or you get sucked into a whole bunch of fog.

BS' need to be clear. They need to be sure of their own path. Really, what else can anyone do, but be themselves? Now, whether someone else chooses to join you on your path is another question. Everyone has the right to decide where they want to be. We can't be morphing into someone else just so that a particular person will be with us. That is not honesty and that is not the basis for a good relationship.

It sounds like you are finding your footing. It will only serve you, your children, and your M.

Try to ignore the hurtful things WS says. He is still in the fog. Yes, you probably did feel the disconnection, but it's on his part, because he hasn't ended the A.

No, you don't want to be with someone who takes you for granted, but WS is not the man you married. He has been taken over by 'aliens'. He is not thinking clearly. Who you are seeing right now is not your H.

Why are you thinking the situation will not change? No, it doesn't change during Plan A, that is why it's so difficult. But Plan A doesn't last forever. The A will end or you will go to Plan B.

The pain comes from the fact that you guys are changing. You are pretty much reevaluating everything about yourselves and your lives.

You know what? I bet WS fell in love with the stronger you and that is who he will come back to.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But....do I really want to be with someone who takes me for granted? Who will hold all of my imperfections against me but can't/won't look at his? Who thinks somehow that I "deserve" to be unhappy since he was for so many years (and yes, I was too!) ? If that is the case, why doesn't he let ME go?? Why the veiled threat of " I will never forgive you if you leave"? Why would he want me to stay in a situation that causes me such grief...if what he says is true--that he loves me. <hr /></blockquote>No you don't. But that isn't who you love or who he can be once you both get through this ridiculous time.

Your husband is a physician. I'll bet it disturbs him when a patient won't follow his "advice" or take his "prescription" as your husband knows that humble obedience IS the way back to recovery. Refusal to embrace what he is telling his patients or their refusal to take the medicine will at least delay the healing, and in some cases, will lead to severe injury or death.

Physicial, "heal thyself." Why do you suppose the are admonished to not treat those they are emotionally involved with? Why do you suppose the saying exists that, "A lawyer who has himself as a client has a fool for client"?

cciyer - what you are hearing from your husband is classic "fog speak" and "withdrawal protection." Right now, you should be in "endurance mode" because you are not in recovery yet. Hang in there, keep the Plan A going, it will get better.

God bless.

Good advice from both of you....I have family over so I can't respond in depth, but I plan to as soon as I can!

Have a great weekend!

Just an update....we had a good talk on Sat night--we had grandparents over so we could go out without the kids. I don't know if it's the fog lifting or him just telling me what he thinks I want to hear from him (so I quit pestering him!), but for the first time, he admitted that "friendship" would be close to impossible. I asked him whether he needed this prolonged contact with her--because I saw that this prolonged contact, from OW's viewpoint, may be giving her hope....and if he really didn't want to give her that hope, this was really unfair to her. He told me that she was very bitter about being "friends", and that he did want to discontinue the friendship (the first time he has said this) but he feels guilty. He also said that he saw my stress every time he went to see her....and that it wasn't really fair to me either (the first time he has said this too!).

I told him that we all had made choices--and now we all had to take responsibility for them. For WH to hang on because he feels "guilty"....he made the choice that would put him (and us) in a situation where hurt and pain were inevitable. OW made a choice--and took an incredible risk--by getting emotionally involved with a married man--and now she has to take the fallout that (apparently) he didn't make the choice that SHE wanted. I guess that's why their last meetings haven't been so pleasant for WH...she's been making statements like "well I'm glad that your wife is finally being nice to you...and you get to go back to your nice big house" and "oh sure, let's just be best friends...". I can't say I blame her...but placing the responsibility for her actions on ME...is crazy. I made a choice of contributing to the decline of the relationship that set up the stage (in part) for all of this to happen. I have to take responsibility for that part....

I also told WH that these past weeks had been an incredible time of growth for me....and I realized that I COULD TAKE CARE OF MYSELF. BEcause I had to, for those weeks when he was in the fog so very deeply. I had to take responsibility....for myself, and for my kids.

I don't know what will happen now. He's inching closer to NC, but still can't bring himself to do so--I still think there is a connection that he won't (can't?) admit to me....but we had a very good weekend (our son turned 1!), and his interaction with me was much more relaxed, less forced--more teasing and more laughter.

lbc, you caught me on the "dumping"....I'm very much like you; I sometimes get VERY fed up by WH's need to vent (sometimes I feel "just get over it!!!" ) but I'm realizing how very important it is to him...and actually I have been working on it. I think the fact he was going to see OW just made my threshold for his "dumping" pretty small.

I don't know--perhaps later this week we'll be back at the same place--well no, I won't be; I'll be trying to strengthen myself and work on plan A. And as you said, there is a timeline for this....

You are doing great! Plan A is going according to -- well -- plan. Don't second-guess yourself. WS' may leave out some details to spare the BS, but they do not say things just cuz they think you want to hear them. At least most of them don't and from what you say, I don't believe your WS is playing a game.

It just takes time for the WS to get out of the fog. Like I say, I suspect you will see very minimal withdrawal when the A finally ends. You are living through WS' withdrawal right now. He's trying to pull away -- he knows he needs to go NC -- but he's just not there, yet.

I'm actually glad you are able to talk to WS about the OW. More information is only helpful to you, but also, WS needs a friend and that will only increase the emotional intimacy between you. It also seems that WS can empathize with you. A definite lifting of the fog.

I'm glad OW is bitter. It's time she woke up from her fog, too. But it also takes their relationship out of fantasyland. No, she's not the perfect woman who would not need anything from him. She's a human being who didn't get the memo that OWs have to be happy with the crumbs that they get if they want to stay OWs.

Okay, you are not even gonna believe this, but your WS will work on his need to vent all the time. Just the other day, my FWS was complaining about this and that and I was trying to come up with all these 'fixes', but then he said, "I'm just venting." It was such a relief. He didn't *need* me to make everything all better.

BTW, I don't think you will end up in the same place. You keep saying that and all I see is progress. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Happy Birthday to your baby!

cciyer, he's realizing that the "addicition" is destructive and hurts all around him. Considering his profession, "...do no harm," I understand his "caring" about the hurt that his decisions, whatever they turn out to be, will have.

But he is also having to deal with the "withdrawal" side of addictions. It is hard and it is painful. We, the BS's, don't like to think about that, much less agree or "feel sorry for their withdrawal pain" because we are also dealing with a huge amount of pain that their affair causes us.

But you seem to have your "head screwed on right" and are being patient. His climbing out of the fog seems inevitable now, especially since he is beginning to see the selfish, clingy, spiteful side of the OW. The fantasy is breaking apart under the glaring light of reality.

Stay the course. Stay with Plan A. Be supportive and also know that you can't make significant deposits into his Love Bank until after withdrawal is gone through. That won't begin until he decides that No Contact is the only way to go. But he will decide that. He's probably seen enough addicts in his professional life to know that IS the only way to go in breaking free of a destructive addiction.

God bless.

Just a quick note here....still have family visiting so not as much time to really respond. It is very timely, both of these posts, because it helps keep me focused, and helps me also to deal with the resentment that I find in myself sometimes when WH simply "takes" and doesn't give back ANYTHING in return. And to expect anything in return, while he is in contact and/or withdrawal, is probably unrealistic. I'm starting to realize that now (that of course doesn't mean I like it! ).

I think some of his "venting and dumping", oddly enough, may be from GUILT.

I do need to emotionally detach, to simply watch and try not to get involved in his every move.

I hope this is withdrawal.....of course, there is a fear that this is just a game on his part with me. I'm trying to deal with those feelings, and keep working with plan A in good faith. And with your encouragement, I think I can do this!

Hi cc, I'm glad you have family visiting. My MIL was an angel and came down for 10 days to give us a little breather.

Ban the thought that WS is playing a game. Now. Whenever that thought pops in, command it to go away. It's not true and it only makes you lose focus.

If WS can feel guilt, then he is starting to emerge from the fog. Unfortunately, if he's like most WS' there will be a time when he will feel like the scum of the earth.

I'm not a giver by nature, so Plan A was so hard! I found another one of my threads when I started to need more from FWS.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=001986

Post when you can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

lbc and Foreverhers,

I just want to say that you both have given OUTSTANDING advice to cc and she is doing a FANTASTIC job at trying to save her marriage. Kudos to all of you and KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!!! lbc and Foreverhers, you have won your wings when you get to Heaven... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God bless,
Natalie

Natalie, I couldn't agree more about ForeverHers and lbc...I don't know WHAT I would have done without their input and advice! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And thanks for the kind words....sometimes it just feels that I am running in place....

I'm starting to put some things into practice. Yesterday, WH (who has had a very busy week at the hospital) called me to say that, for the third night in a row, he had to go to the hospital after work. I was very supportive, but I have to admit, after I got off the phone, all sorts of bad thoughts crossed my mind...and I got busy with the kids, hoping to chase the bad thoughts away. Then he called from the hospital, to tell me that he was on his way home. And then I waited...and waited...and again, BAD thoughts went through my head--is he doing this AGAIN? couldn't he have TOLD me? WHY does he have to sneak around--and again, I got the kids ready for bed, and tried to think of other things.

Well, he came home, and instead of lashing out at him, I just said that I was glad he was home. And then he told me....he had met another patient at the hospital who wanted to talk to him, and that's why he was late. (and he really wasn't that late...it was just my head playing tricks on me) You know, I BELIEVE HIM! He just seemed so content to be with us---he put our daughter to sleep (even when I offered to do it for him since he was so tired), and then we sat in bed and just chatted.

Baby steps...but it would have been SO easy for me to go ballistic on him, but I didn't. And I think he knows that he has to tell me--he DID call from the hospital to tell me he was on his way home, and without prompting, he DID tell me of these other patients who he had to see. It's been a long time since he has called me to let me know that he is coming home....

I'm TREMENDOUSLY fortunate to have such good input, and I am starting to feel as if all I do is TAKE from you all, and never give anything back in return....to say "thank you" seems barely adequate...but it's all I can do, over and over!

Silly follow up post for lbc...I reread some of your old posts, and you had mentioned that your FWS, as part of his withdrawal, was interested in buying a new car....

My husband has recently been showing me quotes on...REALLY expensive telescopes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Perhaps we live in parallel universes? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Is there a

smiley? I'm glad someone else thinks we are giving you good advice. Sometimes I'm not sure, because I'm not an expert at this and really we've only been in recovery for a short time. I don't usually 'follow' someone's story, but your situation sounded so familiar that I had to comment.

But, seriously, you are doing all the work. I didn't do half as well as you and the A ended. That's why I'm so positive about your situation.

You are still the Plan A queen! Wow, very impressive on not going ballistic when WS came home late. Way to go! That is exactly what you should be doing.

Didn't you just amazed yourself by not LB'ing? I continually surprise myself, haha. I would just wait up for FWS when he had spent the day with OW. However, I had no idea if they had slept together that day, so it was easier in that respect.

That strength is what's going to save your M.

I would kinda think that a doctor would need to stop by the hospital pretty often. Do you think he is becoming a better doctor? I wonder if the A was coming from low self-esteem and he is starting to feel better about himself.

Go by your instincts. You will 'know' if he is telling the truth or not. It might be hard to hear right now, but you have a good man there. Somehow he *knew* he should call. He could have blown it off, but somehow he knew that was the right thing to do.

Oh my lordy on spending money! We did trade in my car, but for something about 1/4 of what FWS had his eye on. I knew he wanted to do it for me and he saw it as my way of showing that I was hopeful for our future. Kinda hard after only a week of NC, but sometimes you just have to make that leap of faith.

FWS wants a telescope, too, but I'm fortunate that he will be happy with a cheap one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, tonight should be interesting! H told me that he had been communicating with OW for the past few days and that it had been very unpleasant. She is MAD, feels used, feels like a victim, etc. Apparently she told him she wants to see him tonight (?) for dinner...for the last time. Hmmm....

H asked me what I thought--which so caught me by surprise I initially just stared at him. And then I started to talk....to tell him that in a weird way, I had empathy for OW, and that she is going to be mad--because she played this risky game and (apparently) lost. But I also thought she was milking this situation a bit; we have been through this before, where she gets raving mad and then calls back all sweetness and light a few days later. The difference--H is getting fed up with it!

I asked him what it would be like for him if he didn't have contact with her--I was expecting him to say he would be sad, there would be regrets, etc. He surprised me again--he said it WOULD BE A RELIEF. Of course, he then followed that by saying he really had wished they could be "friends"....withdrawal is hard, and I can imagine that the emotions are conflicting, even though it may not be exactly what I want to hear.

When I asked him why she was angry, he again surprised me; he said that this was a "Dead-End" situation because she could not let go. Additionally, he told me that she gets mad because he feels bad that he goes out while I stay home with the kids...she doesn't want a "friend" who has to check in with his wife before he goes out with her. Hello??

Am I finally getting my husband back? Will this woman ever leave us alone?

I have to admit, my policy on neutrality on OW is fast disintegrating; she also made some snide comment, when H asked how long it would take tonight (he hasn't seen the kids for the whole week because of an insanely busy week at the hospital), about the fact that " don't worry, you'll be home in time to tuck your kids in".. GRRRRRR ( place any foul language there in its place!). These are innocent kids, and whatever WH's failings are, he LOVES his kids and beats himself up that he isn't there enough with them. Let OW be mad at ME, let her say snide things about ME, but what did these little ones do??? (sorry, but all should know--NEVER NEVER MESS WITH A MOM! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I'm trying to be cautiously hopeful here....been around long enough, however, to know how fast these things can change...sigh....I just hope he can do what is right. For him, and for us.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />When I asked him why she was angry, he again surprised me; he said that this was a "Dead-End" situation because she could not let go. Additionally, he told me that she gets mad because he feels bad that he goes out while I stay home with the kids...she doesn't want a "friend" who has to check in with his wife before he goes out with her. Hello??
<hr /></blockquote>Needless to say, your husband is an intellectually smart man. Emotionally, however, he's still wandering around in the fog.

But, and this I think is a major "but," the OW is Love Busting all over the place. Remember those little things called EN's?

Guess who is meeting them and who is not. Guess who is engaging in Disrespectful Judgments and who isn't?

Guess who's intellect is begin to reassert itself and is "seeing" the "real" OW?

Can anyone say..."SELFISH WOMAN!"? Children are unimportant (yes I know about this one as my wife's OM told her over and over that our children "will get over it."). Tell that to a man or a woman who loves his/her children and see how impacts someone's feelings of love for the selfish speaker. SHE doesn't want him engaged with "another woman" (how do you feel about putting on that label? Grin!). She wants him all to herself as if he were a single man with no children and no wife. Gee, does that sound at all like TOW thinking?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />H told me that he had been communicating with OW for the past few days and that it had been very unpleasant. She is MAD, feels used, feels like a victim, etc. <hr /></blockquote>cciyer, you've "won." It's just a matter of time and you can both begin recovery. Oh, there will still be some tough times, some stupid things, but once withdrawal ends (and she is speeding it up with her selfish emotional attacks), you'll be knee deep in recovery.

God bless.

[ July 02, 2004, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]

ForeverHers, I think you are right.....the withdrawal has begun--it isn't quite the NC I wanted now, but I think it's coming, just based on how H is acting, not just with me but with our kids. To be honest, the way he talks about her....I think this "friendship" will probably die off (he himself says that it may end up "superficial", and I can't imagine how it would last when he feels like that)

And it's our children that really cemented the decision--H loves them, and realizes that any other type of action would be so damaging to these innocents. ( FH, I can't tell you the number of our "friends" --who admittedly do not have kids of their own--who told us to break it off and divorce now while our children were young...so they "would get over it". !!??!!??)

This past weekend we have had some very good, deep conversations--about what was missing (for both of us), and acknowledging that both of us were angry and hurt, and wanted to move beyond it. Can you believe--he was talking to me about the kind of retirement house he wanted for us...( we're in our 30's so this is hopefully down the road, but to talk of a future for both of us....FINALLY) ! And the way we talk--the interactions are so much more satisfying than they ever have been....I can only hope we are truly moving to a better place.

I finally feel free....and regardless of what happens, in this process I did discover some confidence in myself.

I may not post quite as much here as I did....may take a little break and then see if I can come back, much as you and lbc have, and try to offer support and encouragement for those who are in this nightmarish process....I can't thank you enough!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Of course OW is angry. She can feel WS pulling away as you can feel him moving closer! Even if she does call back all sweetness and light, the damage has been done. She can LB like anyone else.

You do sound so much better! Have you read your first postings? You'll be amazed at how far you've come. I know MB says you need total NC, but you are the only one that knows what is going on in your M. And I suspect WS will do the right thing and end it at some point.

You are past the immediate crisis, but remember to keep building on what you started. Pick up a couple of marriage recovery books, find an MC, etc.

Please come back once and awhile and let us know how you are doing. I'm so happy for you and your family! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks so much for the good thoughts...I don't think I could really have H be friends with OW long term--and he doesn't think so either, actually. I just decided that it "felt" right to enter back into the marriage, and see what happens--with the knowledge and confidence that I have changed, and can articulate what I need. Each week it seems like she means less and less to him --he actually said " I love you" unprompted to me the other day!--and we have had some very honest (albeit painful) conversations about what went so wrong, and that we were BOTH to blame.

I am going to reevaluate this situation around Christmas time (which was my original point to take plan A ) and see what this "friendship" actually turns out to be. He knows that a friendship that is separate from everything else in his life is doomed for failure...and he also knows that I will (with great sadness) leave him if he cannot eventually get to NC.

lbc, I have set up an email account (cciyer1@yahoo.com)--I would love to continue corresponding with you--as a friend--if you are comfortable with that. (Never in a million years would I have dreamed I would be posting to an online chat area about my marriage...and giving out an email address!). If you would rather not, I do understand, and can't thank you enough for all of the help and support you have given me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, an interesting update.

H came home the other day, looked completely exasperated, and said, " YOu know, I don't think I can be friends with OW." (Oh really? What have I been saying all along?? Sorry, couldn't resist....) I guess OW is continuing to LB, but I have to admit, I'm getting worried...and not because I think H is going back to her.

She is starting to threaten him....he says she keeps mentioning how broke she is, and how "rich" we are....this sounds like extortion to me. For the first time, H mentioned that he is afraid to go completely NC because of liability (he was her doctor....sigh....this has scared me from the start). I mean, if it is money she wants, fine--she can have all of it if she will leave us alone. I can't BELIEVE this! Now, she hasn't mentioned liability yet, but I can't imagine that it hasn't crossed her mind....

She has also "threatened" to call ME. Now, I have no problem with this, but H is rather worried....I'm not sure what she could tell me that I already do not know. Now here is the funny part--she wants to know if H has been sleeping with...ME. Am I the OW now??? ( I am his wife, for crying out loud! )

And if you remember from the beginning, physical intimacy between H and me used to be a problem....note I said "used to". It's much better now. And that's part of the good changes that have come from this process!

After saying all this, she calls us and tells H that "she has forgiven him" (???) and all is well. And that she will stop by his office to pick up a DVD of ours. H was FURIOUS--I think he wants NC, but he is afraid of getting sued.

This is starting...no, continuing to be a soap opera of the worst sort. Yes, I think my H is back--finally--but NOW WHAT?? I'm hoping that this is all because she is terribly hurt and is lashing out is all ways possible....but this is starting to become a pattern; lash out at H and then want to "make up". And I wonder who SHE has been talking to....in some ways, this also seems a bit rehearsed.

I have been trying to be charitable to OW. I'm now admitting that I can't be--all I feel towards her is RAGE. And disgust. The hard part will be controlling my tongue if she is so stupid as to call me...because I don't want to be in contact with her at all.

Ugh. Thanks for letting me vent.

You know what? Would you mind if I asked my FWS about this? I've mentioned that I'm talking to another BS, but we haven't discussed it in detail. I wonder if OW threatened to call me, etc. This might be withdrawal for an OW.

Unfortunately, OW did ask FWS for money at the end and that was the ultimate LB. FWS will bend over backwards to help people (right now he's trying to figure out how to get a friend into a house) and he knew all about OW's parents' money problems. But when she actually asked for a loan, that kinda sealed the fate on their A.

You might start counseling WS that he should go NC and let the cards fall where they may. You will support him through anything that might happen.

Perhaps you can ask WS who he thinks OW is. We were so lucky that our OW never said a word when FWS went NC. She actually went to work with one of FWS' friends and his friend has given no indication that she knows of the A. OW could have wreaked alot of havoc at his work, with his friendships, and with my family (one of my cousin's daughters worked for FWS), but we never heard a word.

You might be hearing the threats of someone who is about to be left, but if she has any kind of principles, she will realize that this is the best thing for her as well.

FWS was afraid to go NC because he thought OW would act out with other men. No one wants to hurt anyone else, but a responsible adult sometimes has to do what is necessary for him and his family.

You might develop a plan if OW calls you. My advice is to just hang up, but I'm not entirely sure if that is the best idea. Because WS is worried, she could probably say some very hurtful things. Before the A ended, I asked FWS for detailed sexual info about them, but he was smart to give me some circumstances and feelings, but not details. The OW could tell you alot of stuff you really don't want to hear.

Oh my! OW was very angry that FWS was telling me he loved me and we were sleeping together, too. I'm hoping your OW is in love and will come to her senses that going NC is better for everyone.

You know what? I've wanted to ask you about SF, but since you didn't mention it, I thought I'd just let it go. I'm so happy you guys are finding your way back in that area as well. You really are doing wonderfully!

BTW, I will write you. I was thinking of sending you my email as well, but I use it everywhere and I'm still worried about someone knowing us.

Please feel free to ask your FWS....this is such bizarre territory for me that I really feel I'm wandering in the dark. I have told H that no matter what happens, I would stand by him; he is reluctant to tell me about OW's rants because they usually involve blaming me...and I really could care less about that. Like you, I'm just hoping that this is just her way of venting her hurt and frustration, and heaven knows I would be very angry in her position too....but the anger would be mostly at myself. And maybe that is what this is.

There is really nothing she could say that I haven't imagined myself! And I have rehearsed a short speech to the effect of --don't do this, I don't want to talk to you--if she ever were to call. Whether I could restrain my anger is another issue...

I would love to hear from you, here or at my email...I have to admit, I set up a new account since my name is recognizable on my other accounts...

OW knows where I work--I suspect she threatened H with revealing "this" at the school where I work....and yes, it would be embarrassing ( you may not believe this, but I'm a very private person! I have never ever posted on a web site/chat site before this!), but I could deal with it.

I just want her out of our life. Period.

hi, not sure if I can be of help but I want to share a few stories from my past that my relate and give you some hope.

The relationship/affair my H had just before we reconciled was very difficult to end. We had been seperated and he wanted to get back together but was involved (living with) the OW. When he came back he was very very unwilling to hurt her. He felt a lot of guilt over what had happened and to some degree considered her an innocent. I gently tried to say she wasn't that she had fooled herself into thinking the kids and I weren't in the picture.

Anyway - their separation was slow and by degrees. Even when he moved back in she was emailing him and asking favours (she had been working with him and had been fired over their relationship) and he felt like he had to help her find a job. When he finally really distanced himself from her he used me as an excuse (thier contact hurt me and he didn't want that). I was okay with that but then. . . she started contacting me.

She was literally going through me to get messages to him. It sounds crazy but she was that desperate. She would think up strange requests that she really thought he could only help her with but she would call me "because she really didn't want to interfere".

This annoyed me and I rebuffed her, but he still gave her the benefit of the doubt. . .until she messed with us.

That is, her messages to him through me (example: could you please ask him this - I don't want to interfere besides I am already involved with a wonderful, handsome man). Was really: please tell him I have moved on so maybe he will be jealous and come back!

Became things she felt quilty and had to tell me - well the first time she really upset me - by telling me something intimate that had occured between them. He lost it. He phoned her and never worried about her feelings again. . . that was what it took to severe ties for him.

To be honest, I think the OW sometimes has already comprised her values so much she will do just about anything and if she can't win him back by cajoling or threats, the next is to go through you.

I do believe though that to some degree they are cowardly and like to remain hidden so really blowing it up when they are a willing participant and will make themselves look bad is a step they are not willing to take. (I have been on both sides so my judgement is pointing at myself as well - I had an EA while my husband had a PA)

The real point is you are getting fabulous support here and I hope it works out well for you.

Thanks for the responses....BTW, love the name, Eros and Psyche!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Seriously, your insight is very valuable; again, I never dreamed I would be in this situation, and to know how it happened with others is really informative--and helps me get my emotions in line.

It really is getting better....I'm hoping that my reaction is an OVERreaction to the mood swings of the OW. It's too easy for my mind to play tricks on me, and blow up a situation out of proportion. Having said that, I think I should adopt the motto of " be prepared", just in case!

Gotta go put the kids to bed! Thanks again!