^^

You were right (gee, imagine that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) about the plan for recovery.

Ahhhhhh young grasshopper... now you learn what all who know me have found. I'm ALWAYS right! LOL LOL LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> We have a little joke at our house. After agreeing to respectfully disagree about something, it will turn out that whatever it was, was exactly as I said. So, then H will just stare at me until I say..."Just say it." To which the obligatory response is, "I hate it when you're right!"

So I'm not quite arrogant enough to think that I know everything, but in this case, I do know about what needs to be done for a good recovery. Mostly cuz I didn't do the best job of it when I was in that position. Am now.

I thought we had it all worked out, but we didn't have a REAL plan, just a sort of "handshake agreement" instead of a contract. Yes, by the way, there is NC with any of OP's. Kind of.

Well, that's much better than not having discussed it at all. And it certainly is a good place to begin negotiating for what it is that you need for full recovery. Here's the drawbaxk though. See, when the WS has left the home, or in some way severed that living together arrangement, then when the A ends and he/she wants to reconcile, you hold the cards. You have the opportunity to set the conditions under which the relationship moves forward..... before it moves anywhere.

Now, once she and you are living together, you've entered into a partnership arrangement again. One in which you are bound to follow the rules for living together. So, you can't really lay out the conditions and say..... here it is, take it or leave it..... because once you have re-entered the R such a statement then becomes a demand. So, you'll have to start flexing those negotiating muscles!

Here's the basic rules for getting what you want and need. It starts with Honesty. Without that as the groundwork, you're going nowhere fast. You need to be Honest (and unfortunately, in today's world I need to state that you must be radically honest.... ) about the way you feel about your spouse's actions, choices, decisions, suggestions. You need to be Honest about the things you want, and the things you don't want.

Your Honesty must be delivered as factual information about you. Not as judgements about what the other person is or is not doing. Simply statements about you, how you feel and what you want.

Then you can request what you would like to have happen. "Honey, I'm unhappy that your job puts you in contact with______. I'd really like it if we could discuss ways that you would have no contact, ever." From that point the two of you can brainstorm solutions for how that might happen. Transfer, different hours, new job, new duties....etc.

But here's the thing. You cannot insist that your spouse enter into those negotiations with you. So the burden of making it pleasant and safe falls on you. You must entice her into negotiating with you by letting her know that it will be pleasant, and maybe even fun. If the smile ever slips from your face, then it's time to change the subject.

Ok.... well I've rambled enough on that topic, I'm sure we'll come back to it later....

We passed within two feet of eachother. Him looking one way, her another, and me looking at both of them smiling. Yes I know it's sick, but I couldn't help it. She was very upset about this and I won some love points for comforting her.

Very funny. Good job on staying cool and pleasant. I think it might be in your best interests to find new places to go out so that there is no chance of seeing him. It brings the A back into the present, reminding both of you. It will only make one or both of you feel bad in the long run. (Sorry to be a party pooper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Anyway, I was just going to ignore him when he said quite possibly the lowest thing I have ever heard anyone say in my life. He said "So, when you kiss her, can you still taste my d*** on her breath?". Kinda rude eh?

Kinda?????????? That's exactly what I mean about needing to get away from situations where you need to come into contact with the OP. It brings up bad feelings... for both of you. Which is what causes LBnk withdrawals, and the loss of the feelings of love.

Then I went out in the back yard and threw a temper tantrum. Mature eh? Put a couple of holes in the fence. Think I broke my hand, not sure yet. W was very good during this. She left me alone during my tantrum, then iced it up for me, comforted me. She was very kind and apologetic.

Ok, but do you see what you're doing here? It's an Angry Outburst. And it could be construed as punishing her! Now, I'm not saying that any one of us wouldn't have felt like doing exactly the same thing, but the net result will be harm to the marriage. You need to have NO CONTACT with these people.

I've realized that I've ignored a few of your questions as of late. Can I start the lessons again professor? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> We have agreed to work out a new plan for the future. I have told her how I felt before. Actually we are working out a plan slowly but more slowly. We spend a couple hours each week talking about things we feel need to improved and the things we think are working out great. We try not to focus on too much at one time so as not to get off track. As I said, we are doing quite well under the circumstances, I just think we could use a little more help. She disagrees but that's one of the things we're going to talk about tonight when she gets home.

So, how is that going? What I would suggest you do is to get the book HN/HN... Read one chapter each week, separately, and then get together to discuss the questions at the end of each chapter. This would help you pinpoint what it is that each of you needs, and to get the other person's perspecive on how you would feel about doing those things. It would keep you on track, it's a positive forward way of doing things.

You asked me one time if she would be interested in posting here. She's not having it. At least not right now. She thinks we are the only help we need. That "love will conquer all". Yeah, that's worked out great so far hasn't it?

You could give her my email and let her know that I would be happy to anwer any questions that she has about how things are going, or what to expect, or whatever. You do have my email, right???

Anyway, that's the long and short of it. Eagerly waiting your response oh wise one.

Sorry so long, it's really been the month from he**.... which I don't even believe in!

C

Oh, and to answer the topic line of your new post.... Yes, Plan A ends when the A ends and you enter the recovery stage. Plan A is NOT a lifestyle choice. You should be negotiating for the things you want and need in your marriage. Plan A has the element of one sided giving. You cannot and should not do that long term.

Email me if I don't get back here and you're wondering where the heck I got to.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Me again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Here's the basic rules for getting what you want and need. It starts with Honesty.

Actually, we've been practicing just that. I had a huge page written out here then my PC went straight to the blue screen of death before I had a chance to post my reply <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . Here's a small example. I have a huge problem with her flirting. She is a huge flirt. She does it with everybody everywhere we go. She constantly needs to feel aproval from everyone (remember the low SE?). I know she doesn't really mean anything by it, and it's just a part of her personality, but it really bothers me. So we had good talk, I was honost but pleasant. I never accused her or attacked her in any way. She responded very well, she said she didn't realize I was uncomfortable with it, but under the circumstances she understands. She promised to, and has, kept the "flirtatious" part of her personality out of her gregariousness. I know it's a small thing, but I thought it was a step in the right direction. She actually even brought up a concern with me. Appearently, I tell her "I love you" too often. She said she feels smothered. I didn't get defensive or anything. I explained why I say it as often, which is because before, I didn't say it enough. But I do understand my saying too often can sort of nullify the effect those words have, especially if there's no action behind the words.

I think it might be in your best interests to find new places to go out so that there is no chance of seeing him.

Yeah, we're working on that. Right now, moving or changing jobs just isn't an option. Instead we're looking for alternative things to do together. Trying new things.

Ok, but do you see what you're doing here? It's an Angry Outburst. And it could be construed as punishing her!

Yeah, I realized that after a while also. Actually she pointed it out. I threw in a few choice phrases when I spoke with her. I didn't mean them as an attack, but that's how they sounded. So we talked about what happened, what I should have done, what we will do in the future if anything like this happens again. Like I said, she was a huge comfort in this thing.

Our talks are going great. She has agreed to do the EN and LB questions with me. And has even talked about reading a few of the books with me. Though she's more interested in reading Dr. Phil. Oy. Oh well, it's a start <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . I will give her your e-mail, if you don't mind though.

Sorry so long, it's really been the month from he**.... which I don't even believe in!

LOl, you don't need to explain to me Cer, you're helping me, remember? BTW, if you don't believe in hell, how do you explain Mr. Rogers and his nieghborhood????

Thanks for clearing up the Plan A by the way. I guess the point I was making would actually fall under negotiating maybe?

HellOOooooOOooooo from the land of children, pets and basketball practice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Actually, we've been practicing just that. I had a huge page written out here then my PC went straight to the blue screen of death before I had a chance to post my reply

Sorry, been there many times myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Here's a small example. I have a huge problem with her flirting. She is a huge flirt. She does it with everybody everywhere we go. She constantly needs to feel aproval from everyone (remember the low SE?).

Ok, so in my self appointed role of being nit picky...let's look at that statement. It is prefectly ok, and actually obligatory in terms of honesty to say that you are offended or uncomfortable with her flirting. But to say WHY she does it (at least to her... to me is ok...) is disrespectful. You are in essence telling her that you know what she thinks and how she feels. You don't, unless she tells you, and even then it is subject to change at any time.

I know she doesn't really mean anything by it, and it's just a part of her personality, but it really bothers me. So we had good talk, I was honost but pleasant. I never accused her or attacked her in any way.

Very good. Honest, pleasant, factual... not demanding.... all right in line with the way to get what you want, or at least start a dialogue.

She responded very well, she said she didn't realize I was uncomfortable with it, but under the circumstances she understands. She promised to, and has, kept the "flirtatious" part of her personality out of her gregariousness. I know it's a small thing, but I thought it was a step in the right direction.

Well, it depends on how you look at it. Taken alone, stopping the flirting may be a small thing. But in the global concept of taking your feelings into account when she makes her decisions, and being able to follow through with a change in habits..... in my book that HUGE. It says a lot about her willingness to do what it takes to recover. I'm impressed.

She actually even brought up a concern with me. Appearently, I tell her "I love you" too often. She said she feels smothered. I didn't get defensive or anything. I explained why I say it as often, which is because before, I didn't say it enough. But I do understand my saying too often can sort of nullify the effect those words have, especially if there's no action behind the words.

This is even better. It's far more difficult to be honest about the things that bother us than most people think. If I were you, I would go one step further, and ask her what kinds of things you could do for her to show that you love her. If saying the words feels smothering, is there something she would like. Flowers? Candy? Clothes? (my favorite <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) Jewelry? Hand holding? Back rubs? Email notes? Little cute gifts? Brushing her hair? Running a bath with candles, music and no expectation of sex..... I'm sure you can think of more.

Yeah, we're working on that. Right now, moving or changing jobs just isn't an option. Instead we're looking for alternative things to do together. Trying new things.

Very good. I think if you go to the questionaires section of this site, there's an inventory you can fill out together that lists recreational activities. It's fun to do and to talk about.

How about this, why don't you print out 2 copies, fill it out, and then take her out for dinner or just coffee and talk about your answers. Plan to spend at least an hour and a half away from home, just the two of you, doing this exercise.


Yeah, I realized that after a while also. Actually she pointed it out. I threw in a few choice phrases when I spoke with her. I didn't mean them as an attack, but that's how they sounded. So we talked about what happened, what I should have done, what we will do in the future if anything like this happens again. Like I said, she was a huge comfort in this thing.

Yes, discussing what to do in the future is a good idea. You personally need to have a plan so that never again do you lose your temper in the presence of your wife. Zero tolerance. And in actuality, there should be zero tolerance for losing your temper at all. If you do it in some situations it can easily become a habit that gets out of hand. I don't want to have to be sending you to anger mgt!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Our talks are going great. She has agreed to do the EN and LB questions with me. And has even talked about reading a few of the books with me. Though she's more interested in reading Dr. Phil. Oy. Oh well, it's a start <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . I will give her your e-mail, if you don't mind though.

Reading the books and discussing will do way more for you than doing the questionaires. I personally don't like Dr, Phil. I object to his methodlogy of being rude and confrontational. Since I think that kind of behavior has no place in relationships, I guess I find it offensive as a teaching tool. For me, it obliterates the message.

Yes, certainly give her my email. I'd be happy to answer questions or to help out with whatever. Maybe when I finish my book, she'll find that helpful... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

BTW, if you don't believe in hell, how do you explain Mr. Rogers and his nieghborhood????

Excellent point! And then there's the lower levels of he** comprised of Barney and the Teleetubbies!!!! LOL LOL LOL

Thanks for clearing up the Plan A by the way. I guess the point I was making would actually fall under negotiating maybe?

Yes! Thank you!!!! It's my personal crusade to remove that terminology for anything other than what it was devised to do. See, there goes that obsessive streak again!

Later,

C

Hi Cerri. Not much time. Just wanted to let you know I read your post and will think about what you said. Get back to lyou later <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just to let you know that several things are getting very busy here. (See my thread at JFO) If you post something to me, and I don't show up.... PLEASE send me an email and let me know that you're waaaAAAAaaiting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I'm just as happy to answer questions, but I might not see them as soon as I did in the past. Don't be afraid to bug me by email.

C

Back again folks. That's right, it's me,it's me, it's MTD....

Question. In another post on this thread I mentioned a cd OM#3 gave to my W. It was his demo as he is aspiring to be a singer (it's kind of hard though when he has absolutely NO talent, JMVHO). I was in our car today and looking for some tunes, Sir Billy Joel to be specific (IMVHO one of the finest musicians who has ever lived <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) and guess what I find. You guessed it folks, his cd. It was at the bottom of the stack and looks like it hasn't been used in a while, actually it doesn't look like any of them have, but still. The point is she still has it. I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt and say she just forgot it was there. That is the most likely scenario. But still, doubts linger on. My real question is this. How should I approach this with her. I considered just throwing it away, but that didn't seem right. After all, it's not my property. But I would feel more comfortable to see it go bye-bye.

Any thoughts???

Now really MTD, don't you know me well enough yet to know what I'm going to say??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Number one step for all issues in marriage = Honesty. So, what you need to do, my dear, is go to her, and just as nicely and courteously, and pleasantly as possible tell her exactly what you said here.

You were digging for The Piano Man (my baby bros favorite musician) and you came across the cd. Tell her that you felt a little ishy seeing it and that it brought back memories and feelings that aren't helpful in recovery.

Then ASK HER for her input. How does she feel about it, and what would she suggest doing?

If you agree with her suggestion, then great! You've got a plan and things are super.

If not, then with the same smile you started with, say something like..."That's a good idea, but it's not really working for me. How would you feel about_______?(whatever it is that you want.)

Be sure to ask this in a real spirit of wanting her input, and with the intention that you won't do anything until you both are happy with the outcome. LISTEN with your heart to what she has to say about your idea.

Once again if she agrees, then conflict solved. If not, then you need to, together, figure out a way to deal with the cd that you can both be happy with in the end.

This is POJA at work. Yes, having the cd is ishy, and that's not ok. But the way to resolve conflicts in marriage doing it in a way that makes the health and safety of the R the top priority.

If for any reason the discussion gets even the tiniest bit unfriendly, stop it immediately. Tell her that you don't want to force your way, and that perhaps you should talk about it a little later.

Then talk to me about what the difficulty is, and we'll figure out what the next step will be.

Thanks for emailing me, I wouldn't have seen your post this week. H is on vacation so we are playing hookey!!!!

C

Oh, and simply throwing it away would be classified as a selfish demand..... getting what you want regardless of how she feels about it.

You were digging for The Piano Man (my baby bros favorite musician)

Your baby bro has excellent taste. And actually, Piano Man was the exact song I wanted to hear. Right before I listen to Only the Good Die Young. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks for the advice. I'll talk to her and let you know how it goes.

Hello Cerri. Miss me? I talked to her about the cd(s). There are actually several, but the rest are just songs he copied for her. The one that REALLY galls me is the one where he is singing to her himself. And our wedding song at that!!! (BTW, maybe I should call the BSA or something about him copying copyrighted material <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . She said she would get rid of them. She asked if she could keep one that she particularly likes. I said I won't force her to get rid of it, but it makes me uncomfortable to have it around. As of now, she hasn't gotten rid of any of them. She probably just hasn't thought about it, but I do. She doesn't understand that this is really a big deal for me. *sigh* Guess I'll try again.

By the way, just a small story I wanted to share with you. My kids inadvertantly LB'd on behalf of my W. My oldest son (he will be 7 in Dec) asked me "why they can't go to the ball games with mommies friend anymore?". He was referring to the church baseball games OM#2 used to play in, my W would go watch him WITH MY KIDS. She would take MY KIDS to his house to play. She also let him drive MY CAR. She was obviously hoping that my kids would come to accept him so she could go off into her fantasy life with him. Blah, blah, blah. BTW, they broke up because he was seeing someone else <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . Go figure. What's this world coming to when you can't trust your own affairee. I told her about what he said and she just broke down into tears. I guess it's good she's remorsefull, but sometimes it doesnt' help me. It's like she's remorsefull, but not very supportive of me trying to get over this. She just wants me to forget like it never happened. Oh well, back to negotiating with radical honosty. Geez, if I'd have know it was going to be this tough, I might have just let her have her OM's and get on with my life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Update you later.
T.T.F.N.

Hello Cerri. Miss me?

Well of courseI missed you!! LOL!!!

She said she would get rid of them. She asked if she could keep one that she particularly likes. I said I won't force her to get rid of it, but it makes me uncomfortable to have it around.

Very good. You could also offer to copy or purchase the music she likes when she gets rid of the cd's that make you uncomfortable.

Although having them is an independent behavior, (a new sub category of LBers in the Annoying Behaviors genre) and under the terms of POJA they need to go. You are right in that you cannot demand anything, even the elimination of a LBer. If all were perfect in the world, when our spouses brought up something that offends us we would drop everything and fix it.

But, being human, it doesn't always happen that way. So, it is always helpful if you, being the one offended and asking for change, could find a way to make that change a pleasant experience for her.

One way would be to do as I suggested above and offer to copy, download, or buy whatever music it is that she likes so well.

As of now, she hasn't gotten rid of any of them. She probably just hasn't thought about it, but I do. She doesn't understand that this is really a big deal for me.

As a general rule we tend to be a pretty unempathetic lot. Of course she hasn't given it much thought. The cd's don't annoy or offend her. And she likes having the music.

Once again, make it easy and pleasant for her to do what you want. Bring it up again, no judgements, no snide comments about forgetting or not caring how how you feel. Presume innocence... that she is doing the best she can in the moment.

Then, offer to dispose of them yourself. Say something like, "I know how busy you are, and that it probably is hard for you to get rid of these things. I really appreciate that you are willing do what I asked. How about if I just do it for you?"

Should she jump to do it for you? Sure. But hey, marriage is cooperative. Lend a hand and offer to make it easy. End result (hopefully) the cd's are gone, and you've earned points for being a nice guy. Win, win.

C

My kids inadvertantly LB'd on behalf of my W. My oldest son (he will be 7 in Dec) asked me "why they can't go to the ball games with mommies friend anymore?".

Ouch. Well, technically one cannot LBer for another person, but I get your point. If, when you were separated you had talked to your kids about what was happening and how you felt, then this would be an easier discussion now. You could simply remind your son that mommy having these friends hurt you, and that you and mommy decided you weren't going to see them anymore.

But, now that you are back together, any conversation you have with the kids needs to be one that both of you can agree to enthusiastically. I believe that you need to say something to your son, kids have an incredible intuitive sense, and he knows that there are things under the surface that are icky.

At a time when you and Mrs. MTD are calm, ask her how she would like to handle those kinds of questions if they come up again... which is likely to happen. A suggestion would be to agree to tell your son a simple version. Mommy had a friend that dad didn't get along with. And because mommy cares about how dad feels, and you both agree to be considerate of each other's feelings, she (and the boys) will not be seeing this friend again.

It is a valuable lesson for a child that parents/spouses need to consider how each other feels when making choices. Even choices about whom to have as friends.

It's like she's remorsefull, but not very supportive of me trying to get over this. She just wants me to forget like it never happened.

Well, she is on the right track. If you believe that you have all the information you need about the affairs.... who, what, when, where..... then really there is no point in bringing it up again. Talking about it makes both of you feel bad, and withdraws love units from each of your love banks.

I understand that it's very hard from the point of the BS, so many things are reminders and you just feel like you need to let your partner know how badly you've been hurt. (Been there, remember <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) But, if your goal is recovery and creating a fulfilling marriage, then you need to not talk about those things.

Certainly you can vent here or with other friends when it gets overwhelming. But in the end, the more you place your focus on making the present really good, then the more you will be building the marriage you want.

Oh well, back to negotiating with radical honosty. Geez, if I'd have know it was going to be this tough, I might have just let her have her OM's and get on with my life.

Nah...... you know I wouldn't have let you get away with that!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

C

Hiya Cerri. Sorry I've been away, busy (as if you didn't understand what that was like...).

Just wanted you to know, the CD issue is now a non-issue. We reslolved it quite well. They are gone. All of them. She did it quite willingly too once I was able to make her understand how I felt.

I do however have another problem. A couple of problems actually. My first one is this. I am having a bit of a problem getting past the past, er, so to speak. It seems like everytime we move forward there's something there to slap us in the face, and I am having a hard time not thinking about her giving herself to another man. It occupies my mind much of the time. Just an example, yesterday I talked to an old mutual friend of ours vie I-M. His GF worked with and was friends with my W during her first A (with my "friend"). It turns out they knew of the A (or at least suspected) and didn't tell me. They didn't want to start any drama they said. Some friends. Anyway, it brought up another subject. My W has asked me not to see some of my friends that know about the A's and now think quite badly of her. She still insists on seeing her friends that knew of and actually some of them encouraged her A's. How F'd up is that?? I told her we should just both make new friends as part of our starting over. She seemed to go along with that idea. I just wanted your take on the situation. BTW, some of the people she doesn't want me to talk to anymore are pretty good friends of mine I am hesitant to give up.

Hiya Cerri. Sorry I've been away, busy (as if you didn't understand what that was like...).

Nahhhh... not me! I just sit around all day, eat chocolate and watch daytime tv <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just wanted you to know, the CD issue is now a non-issue. We reslolved it quite well. They are gone. All of them. She did it quite willingly too once I was able to make her understand how I felt.

Excellent!! Now keep this in mind, cuz we'll talk about it in a sec.

I do however have another problem. A couple of problems actually. My first one is this. I am having a bit of a problem getting past the past, er, so to speak. It seems like everytime we move forward there's something there to slap us in the face, and I am having a hard time not thinking about her giving herself to another man. It occupies my mind much of the time.

Unfortunately, that's the way it is right now. As you move forward in recovery and you build a lifestyle that makes you both happy at the same time, those feelings and thoughts will become less and less.

Some things you can do to help. Don't bring it up in conversation. The A was in the past, and now is the time for recovery. Address issues is the now, and don't dig up stuff from before. Yeah, I know that some of the now issues hinge on what happened in the past, but keep it about now. Don't dredge any more than you have to.

When you start having those thoughts, acknowledge that they are present, and then let them go. Don't invite them in and have them sit down to chat!! Find a pleasant topic to turn your mind towards instead.

I know how this feels, because it still happens to me fairly frequently. Sometimes I can move on easily, and sometimes it takes a little more work. Interestingly, those kinds of thoughts tend to intrude more when things are calm and good than when there's a lot of conflict. It's normal if icky, and you need to deal with it without LBers. Sorry, once again, so not fair.

My W has asked me not to see some of my friends that know about the A's and now think quite badly of her. She still insists on seeing her friends that knew of and actually some of them encouraged her A's. How F'd up is that??

Well, it seems screwy to you, from your POV. But when you look at it from hers, it makes sense. She feels awkward around your friends, and probably like they are judging her, or thinking that you should have just dumped her, or whatever. Her friends OTOH saw her through a time that was frightening and difficult, so she doesn't have those awkward feelings when she's with them. It's not about what she did, but about how she feels when she's with certain people.

I told her we should just both make new friends as part of our starting over.

YES!!!!! That is the wisest thing you have said yet, my young jedi... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

BTW, some of the people she doesn't want me to talk to anymore are pretty good friends of mine I am hesitant to give up.

Ahhhhhh.... now comes the tough part. Remember that condition in recovery that says "Creating a lifestyle that makes you both happy at the same time?" Well, it was bound to come to this eventually, and here it is.

Yes, there are things about your lifestyle, friends, hobbies, habits, whatever... that she's going to find objectionable, offensive, or just plain uncomfortable. Those things need to change. In a spirit of cooperation, putting the M first, and making her feelings a priority.

The temptation here is great to say... Gee Wifey, you're the one who had the A.. so obviously your enabling friends need to go, but I didn't do anything wrong, so I get to keep mine." However recovery is a joint venture where you both take responsibility for the other's happiness and for doing what it takes to have a great M. That means that if there is something, anything that your spouse isn't wholeheartedly in support of, you eliminate it from your lives. And you do it without punishing her in any way. You let her know that how she feels is far more important than any friend you might have.

Remember the cd issue? To her it wasn't a big deal because she wasn't feeling the ickiness that you were. This is kind of the same thing on a larger scale. You aren't feeling the ickiness she feels about your friends, so for you it's hard to see why it's so necessary to move on. Try to put yourself in her shoes and to feel what it must be like for her. Empathy doesn't always come too easily, but it really is essential in marriage.

The question you need to ask yourself is this, Is the loss of love units you will sustain in her LBnk, and the resulting hit to your M, worth any friendship?

I didn't think so!

Good. I knew you'd see it my way... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> LOL

I'm on vacation the 19th through the New Year. Get your questions and problems in early!!

C

I have another very important question. At what point should I begin to trust W again. Not that there isn't trust there, but she tends to get upset that I second guess her. As I said above, I spoke with some old friends, these friends suggested there might have been another OM, I doubted it, but still questioned her on it. She was upset about this. Was I wrong to do that? To be completely honost, I'm still working on trusting her completely. She says she undrestands that, but she still gets upset about it. It's not that I didn't believe her, I kind of just like to her say it. It helps reaffirm my new trust in her. She doesnt' seem to understand. I have tried to explain, but it's like the above where you said she doesn't take it the same way because she doens't feel the "ickiness". (BTW, how did you know my friends' nickname for me was Icky??). I'm just not sure when to start trusting her completely. I'm not sure if I ever will. I know I will always probably feel the need to check up on her. To confirm I guess. I'll never trust her blindly again. I don't suppose any of us deserve that kind of trust though. I know this doesn't make a lot of sense, but any feedback would be great. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hey there Mr. Icky <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So now you want my standard lecture on trust huh? Ok, I think I can dig that one out of the memory banks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You are right that we really shouldn't trust anyone blindly. Trust is something that comes with full information. When we are informed and we know that our feelings, needs, concerns will be taken into account, then we know that we can trust. Blindly trusting anyone, be it government, friends, spouses, or car mechanics without full info isn't trust, it's ignorance.

So when my H was having a's and I thought I trusted him, it wasn't really trust, it was not knowing.

Ok, so where do we go with that following an affair? First, trust like forgiveness comes at the end of the process. It's something that's earned when the offending spouse demomnstrates that he or she is willing to prove that she won't hurt you in that way again. That she is going to extraordinary measures to protecgt you from the pain of the infidelity. That process, which we call recovery, takes about 2 years. And that is 2 years from when recovery begins (ending the A, agreeing to n/c, meeting needs and avoiding LBers) It assumes that the process is ongoing. If there's a slip or a return to the lover (or a new one) then the clock resets.

So when she says that she feels like you don't trust her, she's right. You don't. And you have good reason not to.

So, what kind of things can be done to rebuild trust? First is accountability. You should each be accountable to the other for time, whereabouts, and money. This is not punishment for having the A. It's the kind of precaution that you should have been taking all along, and that would have made it nearly impossible to begin an A. Obviously, radical honesty is part of this.

Second, is meeting each other's MIEN's. You should be scheduling as your highest priority 15+ hours a week with each other. During that time you should be meeting the needs of Affection, SF, conversation, and recreational companionship.

Third, you should both be working to eliminate LBers. (Duh)

Finally, using POJA it is essential that you work together to create a lifestyle that makes you both happy at the same time.

If you diligently on those issues until they become habits I can guarantee that your trust issue will resolve itself.

One other thing that goes a long way towards rebuilding trust is sharing with you oppoprtunites she may have to be dishonest and didn't. For example, let's say she unexpectedly gets off work for an afternoon. She has the opportunity to do something that would hurt or offend you. But instead she calls you immediately and let's you know that she'll be off work. You and she then discuss her plans for the afternoon, you agree enthusiastically, you know where she will be and you can verify that info at any time.

That kind of situation played out over and over will show you that she can be trusted in the future. It's also something you should be doing as well.

Ok, did I get it all? You're doin' good!!!

Make it Merry!!!

C

This question is mainly for Cerri, but anyone is welcome to put their 2cents in. Please do in fact.

The question is this. My W and I are just starting into recovery. We have 3 kids, 7,6, and 3. What I want to know is, at what point, IF EVER, do you tell the kids? Is this something they should know about thier parents at this age? Should we tell them later in life, or should we maybe just let sleeping dogs lie? Just a thought.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by madly_truly_deeply:
<strong>This question is mainly for Cerri, but anyone is welcome to put their 2cents in. Please do in fact.

The question is this. My W and I are just starting into recovery. We have 3 kids, 7,6, and 3. What I want to know is, at what point, IF EVER, do you tell the kids? Is this something they should know about thier parents at this age? Should we tell them later in life, or should we maybe just let sleeping dogs lie? Just a thought.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good grief.... must you tax my poor little vacation weary brain so early in the year??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well, it's an excellent question, and one that I don't have the answer to, but you and Mrs. MTD do.

"Huh??!!" You say? Well let me just put some concepts out there and then we can talk.

While you were separated and while she was involved with the OP you would have been well within your rights to tell the kids. In fact I'm sure I would have recommeded it. No need to look at POJA issues when you are doing all you can to end the A. At that time the focus is on stopping the behavior (affair) which is essentially the same as stopping addictive use of any sort.

BUT, once the A is over AND you have agreed to commit to recovery, the rules change. You are now committed to following POJA. Simply put, you are now committed to doing only those things that both of you are enthusiastic about. All decisions about your life and what each of you does must be good for both of you at the same time.

So, the answer to your question is "How does each of you feel about the children knowing?"

You see, POJA adresses the things you DO. (As opposed to the things you DON'T do.) So your enthusiasm needs to be regarding whatever action you take. If one of you doesn't feel great about doing something, then it doesn't get done.

POJA does not require that you both feel great about the things you don't do. Until you negotiate to enthusiastic agreement, you do nothing and keep negotiating.

My guess would be that your lovely wife would be appalled at the idea of telling the kids. If that's the case, then you drop it, or if your negotiating skills are good you explore respectfully her feelings in depth.

On a practical note, I think you might want to have a talk with your wife about how you will handle it when/if one of the children brings it up. This is a very delicate conversation, you'll need to be very careful to remain considerate and respectful.

Does that help at all?

Happy New Year!!!!

C