hi. you say you're with an arabic man? where's he from? I am an american, to be marries shortly (1 mo.) to a guy from the middle east. maybe we could have our own support group! (I totally know what you mean about the jealousy thing. . .) anyway, i'd love to chat sometime. If you like, email me at skwilks100@hotmail.com.

<p>[This message has been edited by heikefrank69 (edited August 21, 2001).]

Where in the states are you from? <BR> I live in Arizona, but I'm from the UP of Michigan, originally. Where are you?<P>Like where is your guy from?<BR> He's from Iraq.<P>How long have you been together?<BR> Our first date was May 2, 1999.<P>How did you finally get the nerve to say yes?<BR> That's a toughie to answer. There was never an official "popping the question." We simply evolved, naturally, to the point where we were talking marraige, and set a date. (I knew from our first date that he was the one. ..)<P>Have you met his family?<BR> Yes, I've met his family. His mom/dad died quite a while ago. His oldest brother (super-religious) lives in MI, and so does his second oldest brother. His third brother lives in Denmark (so no, haven't met), and his sisters live in Iraq (so no, haven't met).<P>Have you been to his country?<BR> No, no and no! Not that I wouldn't love to go, but we have a fear of Saddam. (My man and his family were working against Saddam in the Gulf War, and left his country in the aftermath of the war. They lived in Saudi in tents for a few years, after walking two days in the desert and camping on the border for five more.) So anyway, if he were to return, he'd be executed. We're considering visiting Syria this fall. We've been discussing that if we do, I might make a visit to Iraq, to his hometown, with the help of his sisters and uncle there. Nothing along those lines is definite yet, because---well, because it's a little scary. Iraq isn't the friendliest place for US citizens, you know?<P>What exactly makes you afraid to marry your man? If you tell me, I may be able to help you a bit, with an explanation of the culture. I'm sure that you know a lot about the culture already, but I've basically been living the life of a fairly religious arab woman for two years now. I spend most of my time with arabic people. I know the Lebanese and Iraqi cultures are fairly different, but they are more similar than American and Arabic cultures are. <BR>Also, I've become muslim. (Is your man Muslim or Christian? Not that that makes much of a difference, the arab christians are about the same as the Muslims. . .) So I have insights into the religous reasons that they do some of the things they do, and may be able to help you in those lines.<BR>I'm really interested in a dialogue with you, regarding this!<BR>--3H<P><P>------------------<BR>I choose to hold hands, rather than point fingers.

<p>[This message has been edited by heikefrank69 (edited August 21, 2001).]

<BR>Just to let you know, I don't think that my religion makes me subservient. When you get deep into it, it's actually very liberating. I know what my job is, as a woman. That sounds horrible, I know--I was born and raised American, remember. I have three tattoos, and a few body piercings. But after investigation, I've just decided that it is a better life, the right one.<BR>I will advise you this: don't marry him if you think he's going to change. He's not. How it is right now is how it is always going to be. If you think that you could possibly live life like this, then go for it!<BR>I'm extremely happy. I know that it sounds like I'm being controlled, and I suppose in a way I am. But no matter how you choose to live life, the path you choose is going to have good and bad. I've decided for myself that the good in my situation far outweighs the bad. <BR>I grew up basically by myself. Don't take me wrong, I had a mother and a stepfather. But I had to be strong for myself, look out for myself. . . I spent the first twenty-two years of my life struggling along on my own. <BR>Have you ever lived in a place with a lot of snow and wind? You know how in a snowstorm, you have to lean forward and struggle along? Well, that was my life. In a snowstorm, it's easier to walk if you have someone walking in front of you, parting the snow and wind. That's my life now--Haider parts that wind and snow for me. And I hold his back, making sure that he doesn't fall back, helping to push him along.<BR>Life is a struggle, and if you pair with the right person, you can make it through it a lot easier. Just like if we tried to stand side by side and walk through a storm, it would be difficult, it would be more difficult if we tried to walk through life side by side. I have chosen my place behind and supporting him, and he has chosen his--in front, and protecting me.<BR>Sorry if I went off on that--I am just so happy right now. I tend to "sell" my situation to everyone, also--I get a lot of flak for the life I've chosen, especially from those who knew me a few years ago. ..<BR>How may kids does he have, and how old/boy/girl? etc.? Does he live in Georgia too? What do you all do for a living? We both work for Red Cross, though we may be going into business (buying a daycare w/someone else.)<BR>Other than the seemingly subservient role that you think you'd have, are there any other problems (or is that it?) Just curious. . .<BR>--3H

<p>[This message has been edited by heikefrank69 (edited August 21, 2001).]

I hope I did not offend you with regards to your religion. <BR> It takes a lot more than that to offend me. To be honest, I much prefer the direct route, like yours--ask questions, make statements, etc. Some people nod their head and pretend to understand, all the while making assumptions based on what they THINK they know. . .<P>I like your analogy of walking behind him in the storm. I just choose to take turns walking the lead based on those things each are strongest at. Does that make sense? <BR>Of course that makes sense. Keep in mind, though, that allowing someone to lead doesn't mean that you can't whisper advice in his ear! Here's another analogy--When I was in High School, I had a teacher who one day asked our class to tell him what we thought the best form of government was. He had us analyze and defend our positions. Then he announced something that I have never forgotten--in his opinion, the best form of government would be a dictatorship--if, and only if the dictator was a kind and loving dictator who cared about his subjects. Don't get your hackles up--I know, you said you will not live in a dictatorship. But think about this analogy for a moment--if the dictator is intelligent, and truly cares for his subjects, then this is the most expedient way to have good decision making happen. It eliminates parliments, congress, and all other forms of bickering to find the right decision. Once again, the dictator shouldn't ignore the feelings, desires, or needs of the people in his kingdom--he should take them into account and make the BEST decision. So, the challenge is--find a good, intelligent dictator that you trust.<P>so now I have a question - <BR>What exactly does it mean to let him lead? <BR>Keep in mind that my answer to this is based solely on my opinions and my experiences. Letting him lead means only one thing--and it can be a hard one to swallow. Letting him lead means only that there is only one person who can have the final say in something. You can bicker, discuss, advise, or do whatever else makes you happy. But when it comes right down to the final end, HE has the right to make the final decision, based on what he thinks is best. And I have to live with that. Like I said, coming from my perspective (American), that's tough to take, at least initially. However, it's been a couple of years now, and it's all working out. Like the dictatorship analogy--he doesn't make decisions without taking into consideration my wants, feelings, needs, desires, etc. We do discuss things and come to decisions that make us both happy. But if there is an instance where we just can't agree on something, and we've tried everything else--well, we go with his decision and let it run its course. To be honest, sometimes he's right, sometimes he's wrong. But I never have to worry about fallout because I made a decision that was poor. And neither does he, really, because if he decides on something that doesn't work out, I'm right behind him to help him work it out, and the next time around he's twice as willing to listen to my opinion.<P>I believe whoever is best at it - should be the one to captain that situation. Once again, just because you are not the leader doesn't mean that you aren't recognized in situations where you have the most capability. If you have the right team captain, he will make decisions based on input from everyone. (Also, just because the captain of a football team is the CAPTAIN, doesn't mean that the coach isn't on the sidelines, right?)<P>I vill not allow gender biez. Diz vill not be tolerated.<BR>(Must say that with a german accent to come out right. )<BR>Mr. Man appreciated the fact that I could change a tire, the oil in the car, check the fluids, mow the lawn, etc. etc, etc. He still does. However, I just tend to do those things less often now, as I am swept up in the more female aspects of our relationship. I appreciate the fact that he can cook, do laundry without discoloring or shrinking everything, etc. However, he tends to do those less often now, as I push some of the more manly things onto him. This does not at all mean that I can't change a tire, or don't, if necessary. It also doesn't mean that he never does a load of clothing, if he sees it needs to be done. As far as gender bias--there's no BIAS, per se--just a recognition of the fact that I have a uterus, and he has sperm. Biologically, we're cut out for different things. We recognize and appreciate that. That doesn't mean that he's worth more, or he's better, or anything, because of his sperm. It means that maybe our great great great grandparents weren't so far off, when they had more clear-cut roles for men and women--it eliminates a lot of conflict! (That same conflict you are having now. . .)<P>It is not really that I am hoping to change him but people change throughout there entire life - I wonder if in his changing he will choose. <BR>Be honest, dear--it's a choice that YOU have to make as well. He's not changing, you're not changing. Can the two of you make enough compromises to make this work? Is it worth your while? In my case, we've worked it out. I will be completely honest when I say that I've probably given in about 2/3 of the time, him only 1/3. However, I see in him what I want and need for a husband and a father for my children. In my case, it was more than worth it. . .<P>But I do see from their visits we will have some serious problems with raising a child that comes from me. <BR>I have no advice in this area. I have simply accepted that there are things that I want for my daughters that may not ever happen. How religous is your possible husband to be? Mine doesn't even think that girls over the age of 9 or so should ride bikes. Iraqi girls are overly protective of their hymen. This disturbs me, and makes me sad at times. However, there are the good points too--they will be proud of their accomplishments, and not be judged by their looks, or weight. They will be virgins when they are married. (An underrated accomplishment, in my opinion. . .) There are other things as well. However, there are things that I have stated my opinion about, and he has accepted as well. They won't be unknowledgable about sex until the night before they are married. Even my boys will know how to cook, clean, and do laundry. I will most likely homeschool. There are a few other things, but you get the gist of it. Can you make these sacrifices? You have to decide that. I've decided I could, and will. ..<P>and discuss it with an open mind and reach a mutual decision - you do not dictate. <BR>Again, he dictates, but not without previous discussion, and a valiant attempt at mutual decisions.<P>And As far as kids go - I can't just be an incubator and maid - I have more to give than that. <BR>Where on earth did you get the idea that that is what you'd be? Or maybe, that's in your case only? My other half is of a mind that at least until the children are much older, they are basically raised by the mother, as that's what we are made for, biologically. We are the MOMs, children come out of US, not the dads. Therefore, God in his infinite wisdom knew what he was doing, and God should be trusted in His decision. Like I said, there are a few things that as an American I would like my kids to do, that they probably won't. However, there are things that he will shelter them from, that maybe an american man wouldn't--and that's the better for them, in my opinion.<P>- I don't know what I am looking for there. I guess I just love him so much, I want to think he's really not that way - look how he contradicts himself on "Let me be the man" mentality.<BR>**Warning** How you think he is, is how he really is. He's not going to change. Once you're married, he's going to feel like he "has" you. Therefore, he will have the right to make these decisions he's making. Right now, he doesn't have the right, as he's not your husband yet, so he waffles. Be CAREFUL with your "maybe he'll change" thoughts--it's not realistic. Mr. Man has not changed at all, though he has come to understand some of my feelings and ideas and so forth a whole lot more. . .<P>Haider also messes with cars, I've decided that's an inherently arabic trait--to buy cars, fix them up, and sell them. He also drives--though he drives for red cross, in a refugee program--not a taxi. I am currently an accounts coordinator w/Red Cross, though in a few weeks we'll be going into business and I'll be leaving my job to run our daycare. . .<P>But I was looking for your post and i don't see a problem thread - what brought you here? If you do not mind me asking.<BR>I initially came here because my sister is posting on General Questions 2, infidelity--her hubby was/is wayward. Then I started sniffing around here and there, "lurking." The reason I came to this board was--well, I'm uneasy about my current status of "shacking up." I chose it when I was not yet Muslim, and though we are married, in the religion, we are not yet married forever, or on paper. Religiously, though what we are doing is technically correct, it's somewhat frowned upon to do it for the length of time that we've been doing it--two years! We're more engaged, than married, and. . . I have issues with that, don't necessarily think that we are doing things in the right order. I have never been an advocate for living together before marraige, and look what I've gotten myself stuck in. Sigh. Granted, we're wrapping it all up next month, but that's not today, and I have to live with myself every day, including today. :|<P>Well, my post has run off at the mouth, as well. Looking forward to hearing more from you. . .<BR>--3H<BR>

<p>[This message has been edited by heikefrank69 (edited August 21, 2001).]

First and foremost, re: four wives. . .<BR>Everything that God allows, He allows for a reason that we may or may not understand, that's not our place sometimes. The understanding of this practice that I have come to is this:<P>First of all, four wives was meant initially to be a limitation, not an extravagence. In the time of Mohammad, men had whole harems of women. So to tell them they could only have one would have pushed them away. Allowing for four was limiting the number of wives to only four.<P>Secondly, a man has to believe and know that he will truly treat each wife the same. It's generally understood that a man won't love each the same, that's impossible (just as parents love each child differently--not more or less, just differently). However, he must give each the same amount of affection, the same living circumstances, the same sex, the same gifts, etc. and so on. He also has to be able to afford to do that--imagine paying for four families! Ha! That said, since men generally can't guarantee that sort of thing, it is highly discouraged among truly religious folks.<P>Third, we'll go back to the blessing from God thing. We don't know the circumstances of each person's life. Some examples: Maybe wife #1 can't have kids. Adoption isn't always easy/practical/affordable, whatever. Also, adoption isn't practiced as much as it should be, among muslims, because of the whole hijab/women covering thing. Adoptive moms would theoretically have to cover in front of pubescent and older adopted boys. Or adopted girls would have to, at age 9, start to cover around her adopted male family. That would suck. This covering thing is not the case, for step/half sibs and stepmoms. Another example: man marries, and somewhere down the line, the wife isn't able to carry out wifely duties--maybe no sex, maybe can't cook/clean/whatever. (Maybe she's in a coma?) Anyway, while women are afforded the right to leave if a husband can't do his part (divorce is an option for the woman in this case), it's discouraged for the man to abandon a woman who is in such a state. He would be looked down upon if he did that, yet unable to have his needs met if he stayed with her and couldn't have anyone else. A third example: In some places/countries, women from extremely poor countries, extremely poor families, etc. would rather marry as the second wife to a wealthy man than as the first wife to a poor man. I'm not saying this is a good practice at all, not condoning it in the least. But as I'm not from an impoverished place, and have never walked in their shoes, I can't knock them for their choices.<P>Okay, having said all that and given you all the justification I can think of (and yes, I do understand and conceptualize that all!). . . Could I take it? Hell no! But Haider and I have already discussed this all, and come to the agreement that he has no desire, and doesn't foresee any desire, to have another wife. Does that mean that I plan to forbid him to do it? ??? Do you plan to forbid your husband to have affairs? No, it's not necessary when you trust someone. Also, I can't say what is going to happen in my life. Because of that, we are of the agreement that if he should ever feel the need for someone else, he must come to me and give me the option of leaving first. I know, sounds sad, but. . . Well, it's the same with a Christian, I'd think--Either you trust him or you don't. I do.<P>I do know a few cases of this sort of thing. Some work very well, such as an Afghani couple who couldn't have kids for ten years. He refused to get another wife, said he didn't need kids he had his wife. She did need kids, and actually arranged for the second wife, set up the whole marraige and everything--she said she wanted and needed kids in the home, and to take care of them as they got older. The three of them live together just hunky-dory. Of course, I do know horror stories similar to those you've known, as well. As with anything, including marraige between just one man and one woman, some will be great, and some not so great. We basically leave it to God to finagle, and God to judge.<P>I will post again later today or tomorrow, re: the other issues. But this I wanted to get out to you asap! (I am the super-muslimette, clearing up misconceptions throughout the nation. . .. Hee hee hee.)<BR>--3H

Okay, onto more.<P>re: first wife's status. Yes, she does generally retain the head honcho status. I imagine it could be quite empowering--she's more of a mom to the other wives, who are "sisters." She has more freedom and less duties as well, generally. A lot of the menial work is passed on to younger wives, and she is more able to just enjoy life. <P>As for the halal meat thing. . . Well, sometimes it's a pain in the butt. I'd kill for a plain old McDonald's cheeseburger, at times. No matter what you do at home, you can't make a Micky Dees burger. Also, my favorite meat as I was growing up was --get this--HAM! I miss it terribly. I always say that if I ever do something horribly awful, like kill someone or something, I'll be easy to find. I'll be naked, in my living room, with a ham on the bone and a bottle of plain yellow mustard. No fork. Hee hee hee. But I chose my religion, and have to accept those restrictions that I don't like, along with the generosities of Islam. <P>As far as recipes, I don't know what to say. I can cook quite a lot of Iraqi food, don't know that you'll interest him with any of it. But try making the grape leave thing some time, but don't use the leaves. Stuff tomatoes, roll it up in onions, stuff baby eggplants, or small peppers, etc. I like it better than the leaves at times, because I don't always like to eat the leaf (after a couple I start feeling like an herbivore), but I LOVE to eat the tomatoes, onions, etc. <P>A lot of the food that I've been taught is not only iraqi, but more localized than that--right down to food that isn't found a lot out of the city he's from! Like fes-n-joon, a pasty soup made from chicken, pomegranite syrup, walnuts, and tahini. Looks like henna, or (ewww--) runny poop!, but tastes fantastic. Also, his people don't give me recipes, they just say "do this, then this, then taste it and if it needs something, put in this. . ." It works well for me, because I'm a more than competent cook (I used to cook at a resort, as well as short-order), but some people don't do well with that. But here's a recipe I love, and actually took the time to configure into a recipe. . . It's easy and yummy (though you have to be into fried foods. . .) I'm copying and pasting it from MS Word, I had written it up for a collection at work. . .<P>Kub’ba<P>This is a middle-eastern dish, and I see it as an appetizer. It is generally eaten by breaking a piece off and sandwiching it in a torn piece of pita bread, with a few chunks of lettuce, tomato, green pepper, onion, or whatever veggies taste good with it. There are many varieties of Kub’ba around, as Kub’ba is basically any little stuffed finger-food. This is my personal favorite.<P>Meat filling: 1 tsp salt <BR> 1 tsp allspice ½ tsp pepper ¼ tsp garlic 1/3 cup raisins<BR> 1/3 cup minced onions<BR> 1/3 lb ground beef<BR>Rice mixture: 4 cups leftover rice<BR> 1/3 to 1 cup water<BR> ¼ to ½ cup flour<BR> Salt to taste<BR>Also: 1 egg, well beaten (optional)<P>Meat filling:<BR>Brown the onions in lightly oiled pan. Add the beef, salt, pepper, garlic, and allspice. Brown the meat and drain the fat. Let cool. Break the meat up well—the mixture should be very crumbled and loose. Soak the raisins in warm water until plump. Add them to the meat mixture, and mix well. (Keep in mind, folks, that this is a basic idea of the filling. Taste it! If it needs salt, give it some. If it needs some other seasoning, add it too!)<P>Rice mixture:<BR>Dump the rice into a large bowl--one with lots of room to work with (a 2 quart bowl works well). Take a fork, and start adding the water and flour a little at a time, mashing it into the rice. (i.e. Add a couple tablespoons of water, and a couple teaspoons of flour. Mash away. Add a little more water, mash, then a little more water, mash, then maybe some flour, mash. . . etc.) Keep working the rice mixture with flour and water until you have a pasty mixture that holds together well, and can be formed into balls easily. (Note: as the mixture gets pastier, it is best to actually mix it with your hands, so you can feel when it is at a good consistency to work with--the consistency should be similar to a real thick, cold, cream-of-wheat. Also, it’s fun to get your hands messy!) Salt this mixture to taste—it should be noticeably salty, or the kub’ba will be very bland. <P>Here comes the fun! Sprinkle some water on a big platter or pan, and wipe it around. You’re going to set the kub’ba on this before you cook it, and it will stick if the pan isn’t a little wet. Now get your hands all wet. Grab a ball of the rice mixture (I use approx. golf ball size, or a little smaller. To be honest, the smaller ones taste best, but it’s kind of a pain, and I get lazy, so they get bigger as I go). Roll it around in your hands until it makes a nice little ball, all very compact. Now poke it! Stick your finger in it, make a hole, and spoon some meat filling into it. Close the hole, roll the ball around a little, and then flatten it a little—think “flying saucer” shape. Put it on the platter. Repeat that until you run out of rice or meat. (If you run out of meat first, you can use the rest of the rice and fill them with whatever you want—cheese, veggies, whatever—be creative! If you run out of rice first, use the leftover meat mixture on top of a garden salad—yummy!) After you have a platter full of kub’ba, put them in the fridge to chill, while you heat the oil (the next step).<P>Put a big frying pan on the stove. Put in about an inch or so of oil, and heat it. I mean, it should be HOT, almost to the point of smoking. Now here’s the catch: if you trust yourself, and have made this recipe a few times (which tends to give you false security) then toss your Kub’ba into the oil, fry until a little darker than golden on each side, and set them to cool and drain on a paper bag. If you’re unsure of your Kub’ba prowess, dip the Kub’ba in the beaten egg before frying. The egg gives a nice color, and keeps the Kub’ba from breaking up into little pieces in your oil. (This will happen if your rice has too much water, not enough water, not enough flour, because the moon is rising, because you really want them to turn out well, because it’s a leap year, because a cat sneezed in Japan, and for a variety of other reasons I haven’t discovered yet.)<P>A few notes: If you dip them in egg, and they still fall apart, your oil is definitely not hot enough. If you make cheese-filled Kub’ba, fry them LAST, as the cheese inevitably leaks out and ruins your oil (I’m speaking from experience). BE CREATIVE! Vary the seasoning to taste, skip the raisins, add extra onion, or stuff them with whatever’s sitting in your fridge, asking to be used! This is not a set-in-stone recipe, it’s a guide. Enjoy!<P>Anyway. Onto my last note for the moment. You had mentioned that if it doesn't work out with your man, he doesn't want you to be with any other arab. My man is the other way around, kind of. He's okay with the fact that I'm american, and he wasn't the first. However, had I ever slept with an arab before I had met him, he would have never considered me. . . Can't stand the thought, don't know why. But if something should happen and we don't make it, or he dies, or whatever, he's very insistent that I should go to his oldest brother so his brother will find some nice man for me to marry. He feels like only a shia iraqi good muslim man will take care of me appropriately, and if it isn't him, his brother will make sure that I get a "good one." He had even told me this in the past, when we were having problems and not sure we were going to make it--he'd say "We're too different, it's not going to work. But go to *his brother*, and he'll make sure you get someone you deserve." Granted, part of this was to hurt me "go away, go away, go away," but part of this was based in his true desire to make sure that I have a good arab man.<P>Gotta run!<BR>--3H<BR>

3H - You are a nut!!!! - loved the rice thingy recipe. I think I'll try it (without the raisens). He spent many years in Kuwait and we'll that's just not that far away - so he may have the taste buds - after reading the description - my taste buds were into it - so that appeal seems to travel very far from home. And the recipe problem - yeah - I've been cooking since 6 for a family of 5 so that is the only way I get it right. I can't measure things - I have to have an end result taste in my mind before I can get anything right. The dogs should be real happy with my first try .<BR>I can hear them now - Arf Arf Arf (Doggie for thanks 3H).<P>I know what you mean about the grape leaves - are you using the ones from a jar? I was and ewwww it was so grose - but while in Lebanon, I helped his mom make it. We stepped out the front door and picked fresh ones. - Made all the difference in the world. Maybe some sort of specialty market will have them fresh. <P><BR>and on the Wife #2, #3 ..... thing - <BR>Not in a million years could I do it. <BR>Not for any reason - <BR>Not for kids, <BR>Not for sex, <BR>not for not doing laundry another day in my life, even. That's what 10 maids, porno's and artifical insemination are for. and it would be ok if they artifically inseminated the maid - that way I could have artifical labor too.....<BR>Ha-Ha - Hee-Hee. <p>[This message has been edited by heikefrank69 (edited August 21, 2001).]