I am 20 years old and I am currently living with my boyfriend...we have not been dating long but we are very much in love. I know that living together before marriage is supposedly a big no-no.....but what I want to know is WHY? I am a pretty religious person and I understand God's reason's....I know that should probably be enough for me but it's just not...I need more info (blame it on my age I guess). Any advice any of you are willing to give will be helpful. We do plan on getting married but not any time soon. With a mother like star*fish I know I should have all this figured out, but I don't. I want personal horror stories, statistics, ANYTHING. Just tell me why I shouldn't be doing this. Honestly living apart from eachother is no big deal...we're just doing it to save money. So anyway...please help me out!!! Thank you!

I think living together with a boyfriend for short periods of time can be a learning experiance just like learning to get along with a roomate, etc. When it gets bad is this:

1. When you have no plans on making that relationship permanent and yet you severely limit your dating experiances which are actually learning experiances, for YEARS, wasting your precious time with only ONE person.

2. If you become pregnant and unmarried. Then your life will become hell.

3. If you are young and limit yourself to that one man. (you can break up and move out, however...)

4. If your finances get intertwined without a legal agreement of some sort.

5. If he is a bad influence on your life in any way such as causing you to drink, drop out of college, take drugs, have risky sex or have sex without good forms of birth control, to subjugate your life to him, to give up your friends, to dominate your time, or do anything illegal....

6. If you "clip your own wings" by focusing on this man rather than "fighting" your way through life on your own determining "YOUR OWN" destiny and finding out WHAT YOU WERE MEANT TO DO IN LIFE. If you cut short this growth process in yourself or grasp onto a man in order to "hide" from the growth process, you will never forgive yourself later for the wasted time. You need to learn to become ALL you can be as a person and test your limits and learn about YOUR passions and talents. If living together allows this to happen, good. If it does not, that would be bad.

7. If it diverts you from YOUR path in life...


I lived together with a couple men. One, it did not work out and we quit the living together after several months when I found out he was immature, and a messy pig and would not contribute in any way to the household or even do any dishes. I felt like I had to do everything. Thank goodness I found this out before I accidently married him!!! That would have been a huge mistake.

The second man I lived with is now my husband who I met at age 43. When we moved in together we knew we would love each other until we died. That love is so strong and he is a special man, one whom living with and marriage to is easy. We lived together 1.5 years before we legally married. We have our problems but the incompatabilities of living in the same home is not one of them.

So, I am glad I had the short experiance of living with that first boyfriend because I learned who and what I cannot live with, and I am happy I lived with my husband to "test him out for marriage".

At age 43 or 44, when you have time and money to lose, you really want to be SURE you are compatable before you get married!.

What are the reasons that you are living with your boyfriend?

<small>[ January 01, 2004, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Welcome Baby ..... awww ....... sweet name. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Your mom and I are pals on the board and so I just
wanted to welcome you here.

My son is ALSO 20 and he ALSO just "sprang" on me the news that he and his girlfriend are
planning on moving in together.

sigh....

Baby .... I am bias as a Mom. I wasn't happy about it ... but....I support him ..... and on the plus side I really like this girl A LOT!
So things could be worse.

I am just concerned for them both. As far as the relationship ending.

I know. I know .... No one is thinking about the "ending" part. We just all think it will go on and on.

The truth is though Baby - MOST end (glad you
didn't ask me for the exact statistics - your mom has them ...I KNOW she does...she has them ALL .. LOL)

I wonder if the reason they do is that it is far easier to leave a relationship when you are not married, than it would be if you were married?

Ok ... so why is that a biggy? Well, here is my take. (from my own experience
by the way). When the relationship ends, you have just as much to grieve, just
as much hurt, just as many decisions (ie property settlement, stuff to divide up) in
a separation as you do in a divorce. You have all the emotions and all the pain, minus
the paper work.

I say if you already KNOW that statistically you have more chances at a failed relationship
because of living together first, why take the chance? Especially if you believe he is "the"
one. Why curse it now?

I know that sounds really simplistic. I am also aware I am giving you "advice" after the
fact when you are already living with him, but I just think you have a better shot at making
a go of marriage, later, if you do the right things now.

You asked us not to lecture, or to give you the moral reasons so I'll leave that one alone.

I could do like MY folks did to me, which was say; "because I said". LOL

I doubt that would fly with you either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> All I can say now is stay close to your mom emotionally
and stay true to your own heart. IF you see signs of the relationship not working PLEASE don't just stay in it to "prove" anything to people that were nay sayers.

Also, I would suggest you read some good books on "boundaries" if you have not already.

Beyond that, if you change your mind? Please e-mail me with with reasons you changed your mind .. (complete with tearful audio confession) that I may play for MY kid. LOL Just kidding of course. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I wish you well sweetie. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

DZZZZ

Actually, the reasons are kind of silly. I haven't brought him home since our third date and because he slept at my house every night it seemed pointless for him to pay for an apartment he wasn't using. He quit his offshore job at my request (and for a few other reasons) because it was very hard on our relationship. and he is now making a lot less money than he was when we first met. This doesn't bother him in any way but now he wants to go to college in the fall and he's trying to save money in order to do so. My condo is payed for so the only thing he pays for is groceries and other household items. We get along wonderfully and we are very aware of eachother's feelings and concerns so it never occured to me that living with him might not be the best idea. Like I said, we definetly plan on getting married in the future, but right now we are not financially able to do so (besides, my parents would kill me). We are very positive influences on eachother...he pushes me to do better, be more ambitious etc. And I help him to be more open-minded. I really liked your list...it definetly made me think....also, I read the Q&A column and the helped put things in perspective. We are very productive as a couple...we discuss rather then fight...but I don't want that to change. More than anything, I'm scared that when we finally do get married we're doomed to fail.

Diamonzzz

Thank you for your post...

My boyfriend read it and said "I don't get it" LOL I guess I'll have to explain it to him later because I do get it. Actually we still have about a month to decide for sure (His lease isn't up until Feb but he's pretty much moved in with me now)

I've had convo's with my mom about it and she doesn't agree with it (obviously) but she's not going to tell me not to either. She's always right though (how annoying!) and I guess her concern just sparked my curiousity. Besides, I'm a psych major and this topic would make a great thesis.

I want this thing to work out with him and I, but if we're making it worse by living together then I guess we should quit.

Hmmm...well at least I have something to think about! Thank you so much Diamonzzz!! If you see my mama tell her I said she's awesome...

Hi baby star*fish,
I'm definitely a fan of your Mom's, but I doubt she'd consider me a friend. I moved in with my bf (recently engaged) for financial reasons. We've been living together for about 2.5 years. It was the next logical step since I was paying $600/mo for a room I never lived in and had no family within several state lines. Like you, I never thought twice about the longterm problems that could be caused. I was surprised to read about the increased marital failure rate for couples who had lived together before marriage. I had long discussions on these boards with members from religious and moral standpoints to emotional ones, to purely logical perspectives. I gradually understood the potential problems and I went from believing that there were great longterm benefits to living together, to thinking it could be done with two mature people who understood the dangers, to thinking I made the wrong decision. My fiance and I are extremely compatible. Communication is great. We highly respect each other and know that despite our decision to live together before marriage, we will have a successful marriage...we also know that like all marriages, we will be faced with significant challenges.
So, since you are looking for horror stories, I'm not the right person to chat with. But, I would strongly discourage you from living together at this point in your relationship. You are smart to pose this question and consider a variety of perspectives. I hope you will both spend a lot of time reading the concepts and stories in this web site. Having a stranger discourage you from something she may have successfully taken on (at least thus far) probably doesn't mean much to you; however, I hope you will give this decision more time. Ask lots of questions. Do everything possible to make sure that you aren't about to destroy your future marriage. Don't rush. If finding the money to live separately saves your future, I think you can agree it will be worth the extra money and effort.

I don't know how to say this without putting the both of you on the defensive, but 20 really is too young to choose your lifelong mate. You are going to change a lot in the next several years. Between the ages of 20-25, you are going to mature so much and learn so much about yourself and the people around you. Both of you will be completely different people in five years. To say this is the man you are going to marry after only dating a short period and being so young is very sweet, but very unrealistic. You may very well end up together for the rest of your lives, but why risk stabbing yourself in the foot now? If you really think this is the man you will marry, start doing the right things now to make sure that marriage will be a success. It's a real struggle to be logical and less emotional when saving money seems like the most logical thing you could possibly do. Just keep reading. Keep asking questions. You may be put on the defensive, but you will always have a few people out there who understand what you are feeling and have likely been in your shoes.

Sorry for the rambling. Had the opportunity arisen, I'd probably have done the same thing at 20, but I'm so glad that wasn't a decision I had to make. I'm so glad that I dated around and learned who I am and who I want in my life. I wish my fiance had done more of the same.
Don't rush. This is your time to be young, have fun, and discover yourself. It's great to be in a serious relationship, but it's not great to trap yourself into one prematurely...lots can go wrong even if you do plan on marrying some day. Love is funny. It screws with your head. I'd say at the very least, date for a couple years before even thinking about the "m" word. Keep your options open or one day you may be wishing you'd actually lived like you were 20 when you had the chance. There are many people on these boards who made that mistake. Have fun with this relationship...that's what you're supposed to do at 20. If it lives long, fabulous. If not, you will grow from it.
Take care,
Smile

Smile,

Thank you so much for your insight....

Don't worry about me getting defensive about anything, I find it's pretty pointless to be offended by anything said on a website intended to help people. I actually wanted people to point out what was wrong with what we are doing...it puts me in my place.

Trust me, I know 20 is way too young to decide anything definite. That's a lot of the reason why I posted on this site...I wanted the opinion of the older and way wiser. My mom is amazing but sometimes it's not enough to hear it from her. I know that sounds weird...guess it's just because...well...she's my mom.

After reading your response as well as the other 2 I've recieved, both of us came to the conclusion that it's probably a good idea to wait out the whole living together thing....there's no point in sabotoging it before it starts. We had a long talk about it and decided that when he's a little more financially stable (Which should be a few months) We'll find him a cheaper apartment and he'll move in there.

As far as getting married goes...if it happens it's not going to happen any time soon. There's a lot that I need to accomplish ON MY OWN before I make a commitment to anyone else wether it's him or not. It's something we would both like to see happen in the future, but we know we're still too young to be able to handle it. I tend to lean on people and I would rather establish myself as independent before I marry someone.

More than anything, we're great friends and we have a lot of fun together....that'll be the hardest thing about living apart...we really enjoy eachother's company (24 hrs a day!). I know it sounds really dumb, but then again so are we <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Anyway...now I'm rambling...Thank you again for posting, I appreciate all the input I can get!!

Hi Baby*Star.

I believed when I was your age, that I just wanted to have fun. And even when I met my current husband, the idea was not to be "serious", but to enjoy his company.

Dating is a time for enjoyment, and learning about one another, and as the others before me here have said...also to learn about yourself! Having a life with your maturing personality, whether it be college degrees or already initiated in a career...The time you spend is invaluable in learning about lifes trials, and development in maturity.

We don't like to see our children get too "serious" before early twenties, and sometimes it will be ok earlier or later. But, the important thing is to not sell yourself short.

You can listen to a parent and still feel you want to do a thing, but one thing is that they will always want to support you, in anyway to give you the best advantages available to you. I think that Baba wrote some important things about the living arrangement. And my spouse lived with another woman when he was in his early twenties. It was fun, but on occasion ovewhelming. The separation could be compared to the same pains as a divorce. With all of the down feelings woven in. But he survived it. And he learned valuable lessons from it. But don't think the advantages were worth any of it.

I wish you the best! Happy New Year!

The first time I tried living together with a man I was 27 and a virgin. It lasted for about 6 months or so. He kind of "just brought his stuff" one day and moved on in. I was lonely at the time so I let him. But later, when I learned about LOVE and what LOVE was and was not and learned about myself more, I realized that I could not live with this man although he was not a bad person and was a good "friend" to me.

After that experiance, I never even thought of living with anyone else(a man, I had a female roomate occasionally in my big home) again until I met my "love of my life" my husband.

After dating for many years and sticking with a few boyfriends for years, I decided to really find THE ONE for me. I knew who I was by then and had some assetts. I was READY for marriage if I happened to meet the right man. And I was going to date 100 men until I found that one!

I dated only four men, all were nice. The fourth one, I could NOT rule out. After meeting him I asked him if we could go on another date I enjoyed being with him...he said SURE!

We dated and after the fourth or 5th date I knew I was falling for him. We dated for 6 months and I was totally wild about him. We knew that "this was it"! This was a lasting lifetime thing. He was my Mr Right and I was the ONE for him.

So, we looked at about 100 very nice homes in various areas and narrowed it down to two and I bought the bigger of the two, a great, brand new 4 bedroom home and we moved in. I rented out my 3000 sq foot "older home" that I had been living in to a family.

He had a few small vanloads of stuff and I had a 27 foot van stuffed four boxes high with all my stuff. It was fun moving and everything. My Dad got mad when he realized that boyfriend was actually living there. (It did not occur to him at first that that is the only reason I would buy a nice new and beautiful home when I had a big home to live in already) My Dad ordered me to get a "living together agreement" or something because I had so many assetts. I told Dad not to worry, that I was 44 and well able to handle myself. But I bought 4 books about the "living together agreements"...just to be sure.

Then one day, I knew it was going to be for life with this man so I brought up marriage. He has always said he would be with me forever until I no longer wanted HIM. But I asked if he thought of marriage and he said he would like to marry me. So we got married a few months after I had a prenup agreement drawn up and signed.

When I was 20 and 21 (Times are different now) I was barely concious of the world. At 27, I was still a virgin. So, I cannot imagine "steady dating" very often at 20 even though I had one boyfriend then for about 2 years. I think some people do "steady dating" throughout their life and some "date around" or play the field. I did a combination of these things.

"Steady dating" allows you to "have a relationship" for a longer period of time and get into "relationship issues" so that you learn "how to run and not run a healthy relationship".

"Dating around" allows you to have freedom to meet many people and see what is out there and what type you like the best. It allows you to develop self confidence and stand on your own two feet. Polishing up your social and dating skills are important to learn so you do not feel you are "grabbing for the first man around and sticking to him like glue". These social skills will also come in handy later in a marriage so that you get along with neighbors, friends, etc.

My husband and I both "dated around" and "had long term relationships" and "lived with people" so we had a wide variety of experiances with the opposite sex. He even had an accidental child 25 years ago when the woman he was dating tricked him into an unwanted pregnancy. She had told him and showed him she was taking the pill but she really was not doing it. So he had that too, the experiance of raising a child, dealing with his former girlfriend, an alcoholic, cheating mother who he never could even live with, and paying 21 years of hefty child support for a child who was ruined by the alcoholic mother. We have never seen his child since she lives 3000 miles away but we hear from my husband's mother that she is a "nightmare walking", well known in the little town, with four kids of her own now and the various criminal father's in jail. That is what happens when a man trusts a woman he is dating who "cannot be trusted". He never trusted woman again regarding birth control issues.


These experiances (all of them) come in handy to enhance our marriage now. My husband can handle any situation that comes up with grace and wisdom no matter how difficult. I am very smart myself too so we make a great team. I have never raised a child (and I never will!) so I missed some wisdom and experiance there but my husband did it so he makes up for this lack in our marriage.

Unless you are with your Mr Right, you might want to figure that your life will contain many forms of dating. Casual dating, boyfriend relationships, living together for short periods of time. This way you will have the full range of experiances with the opposite sex. Just please if you are sexually active use two forms of birth control EVERY time you have sex. Then, if you should break up you will only have to deal with a hurt heart, not an unwanted baby.

Believe me, you do not want to "put yourself in prison too soon" or cut your choices in life short by becoming pregnant if you do not want to be. You are smart so why ruin a great life with an unintended pregnancy? That would probably blow all your other plans to smithereens.

So, whatever you do be careful and observe things and learn all you can about life and love! Try not to limit yourself too much even if it seems safe to do so.

Many women plop out a child early so that "they can limit their lives and not have to think about the hard questions in life". They actually ruin themselves and their own lives to achieve an "illusion of safety" since then "there is nothing else they can do with thier lives but raise the child".

Some women are afraid to think, learn, experiance different parts of life, go outside thier comfort zones, etc. So it is attractive for them to become pregnant as soon as possible and "live a determined and set lifestyle" rather than thinking scarey thoughts like "what carrer should I go for" or "who should I marry" or "what is my purpose in life".

So, whatever you do, please do not create DAMAGE in your life that you cannot undo.

LIFE damage you cannot undo is this"

1. STD'S
2. A baby when you are unmarried and not ready
3. A bad boyfriend who won't leave
4. Verbal abuse or physical abuse
5. Dropping out of school
6. Criminal record
7. Drugs
8. Alcoholic
9. Credit debts
10. Loans
11. Bad people around you
12. Abortion
13. ETC


Stay free and far from all the "damaging things" in life and you will be OK. You have so many choices to have a great life. Living together is not the most damaging thing you can do to your life. I feel that one of my realtionships "not living together" was way harder and more painful to break up than my "living together relationship at age 27". It depends on how emotionally close you are with that person, living together or not.

"Living together itself" does not nessicarily make you more emotionally close than dating them and having sex with them. And the pain of breaking up is no worse with "living together relationships" than it is with "non living together boyfriends" who you are in love with.

The pain of a breakup is determined by many things:

1. How "in love" you feel.
2. Who broke up with who
3. How emotionally close you were
4. How dependent on them you became
5. How much you limited yourself by being with them
6. How the breakup was conducted
7. Compatability issues
8. How long you were with them
9. How good or bad the sex was
10. How much energy you put into the relationship
11. Other things....

Living together or not, breaking up can be painful (or not, especially if you come to dislike the person and want to be rid of them)...

So please evaluate things always and make sure it is the BEST thing you can be doing right now! For your precious life! You have ALL the choices open to you now, don't blow it!


Good Luck!

<small>[ January 02, 2004, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

I think it is just awesome that you and your bf are reading here together and talking about things objectively. That can only help you.
Remember that you don't have to be married or planning marriage to learn from this site. Ask lots of questions.
You sound like two smart people. I wish I had had a parent like Star*fish to give me relationship advice when I was your age. She may be biased, but her advice is solid. She may not always be right, but she will always be making decisions in your best interest and sometimes that just better than always being right. My mom always wanted me to think she was my best friend. She supported me no matter what I did. I had sex and was and engaged with a boy when I was in high school and she supported this despite the fact that he was abusive both physically and verbally and extremely self-centered. I was looking for someone to help me out of the relationship and my mom was making it harder. It would have been really great if she could have taken a step back and helped me see things more objectively. You've got a wonderful woman in your life to help you do that. Whether or not you always agree and side with her, ALWAYS listen to her and think very hard about her advice...she's a wise mommy.

I both envy you your support system and admire your maturity. You have lots of growing to do, but being smart now will allow you to enjoy that growth rather than have to use it to dig yourself out of a hole.

Smile

baba--

As far as babies go we are REALLY careful about it (well, as careful as we can be without actually abstaining from sex). But I see what you're saying--it would definetly be horrible if we had a child right now.

Other than that...all the other things you mentioned are really not a huge issue.

When I first met my bf, he had a very serious drinking problem....I didn't actually realize how bad it was until we started dating. He was never mean to me when he was drunk, but he was awful to everyone else and did some really stupid things. After we dated for about a month, I realized that there was no way I could be with him if his drinking continued. I basically told him that if he didn't quit drinking completely, then we would no longer be together. That was all it took...after that conversation, he didn't drink again for almost 6 months. Now, he'll have an occasional beer while playing pool or he'll come to the bar I work at and have a drink with me when I get off, but that's the extent of it.

I have always refused to date a guy that uses drugs (ANY and ALL drugs), and over the past year I have been very insistent on men being tested for STD's before I sleep with them.

I have had my share of the bad boyfriends for sure...but I've had great ones too. Every time I date someone it is such a huge learning experience for me.

One thing that bugs me though...
Where I live, it really is impossible to date around. Even if you're not sleeping with anyone, it's not very socially accepted to date a few guys at on time. I usually did anyway, but my reputation GREATLY suffered from it and made life in highschool (and some semesters of college) absolutely miserable. This is not so much a problem for me now since I am in a "serious relationship", but it still really burns me up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Anyway, my boyfriend is really great and we have an enormous amount of respect for eachother. I'm sure we'll have problems and rough spots like everyone else, but hopefully we'll be able to deal with them in a productive way.

Thanks baba!!!

Smile--

For my mother, "wise" is not a big enough word. She always had a way of explaining things to me in a way that really made sense. She and I have been through a lot together and she has made an incredible impact on me. I can't imagine where I would be today if it weren't for her.

I remember being in highschool and absolutely hating her. Just ask her about it....trust me, I was the devil. But now, I look forward to talking to her and seeing her. She really is my hero and I hope one day I'm lucky enough to be just like her.

I spoke with her earlier today and let her know I had posted a question on the site....she seemed very pleased that I was taking the intiative to learn more about my situation. I really appreciate all the advice that ya'll have given me.

Keep it coming!!

Thanks!

Baby_Star,

I don't expect you would know or understand near as much as your mother--as you haven't been through her life experiences--and that's okay--you'll have your own and will learn many of them that way--

but, you asked why according to the Bible you shouldn't move in with your b/f--

Part of the reasons is respect--

Respect for you as the woman God created you to be
and for him--as the man God has created him to be
and respect for God--as Your creator--

God say's that a man is to present his bride as pure and without blemish before God--

God created you to be a gift for your husband--
one that should be loved and cherished--

Just as your stbh is God's gift to you--

This is something that really took me a long time to grasp and I'm your mom's age--

Think about Christmas--and how you feel inside when you recieve a gift from someone who really loves you--in two different ways--

first--consider how you feel when you peeked and know what the gift is--it takes away part of the joy you feel inside, does it not?? because you know what it is--

And then consider how you feel when you see a gift under the tree for weeks before Christmas it's the biggest box under the tree--and your waiting, anticipating just what it is--you can't wait to open it--

You know it's a gift from someone you love so very much--and you know it's going to be wonderful
and your going to enjoy it so much--because it's given in love--

God views you and your B/F that way--as gifts to each other from Him--before the wedding..He's still working on some of those finishing touches

And then look at the wedding itself--it's as if God wraps you both up in that beautful wrapping
you in The long white flowing gown, and Him in the Crisp new Suit or Tux---as a special gift He has created for each of you--

And to take the gift before it's ready--is taking away from how truly special it really is--

Like I said--this is something that I have recently come to truly understand--and it makes me hurt inside--that I never seen it before and that with the relationships I have had in the past the men didn't see me as that special gift from God either---

but, this is just my perspective <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I hope it helps--

I agree completely with Thorned. There is nothing positive to be gained by living together out of wedlock, it will more than likely lead to long term pain and confusion. If he loves you enough he will prove it by getting a separate residence, and the same thought pertains to you. That's my take and God bless you both!

TR and HPK, I believe Little Star and her boyfriend are actively having a sexual relationship so the "gift has been given and opened and used already "...

What would your views be about premarital sex? Is living together and having premarital sex worse than having sex and not living together?

baba2,


--What would your views be about premarital sex?

TR--having been there recently before I married--
I struggled with the guilt knowing I wasn't in God's will--and it's not a good feeling--but not knowing where they are in their relationship with Christ--they may not feel that same guilt--


--Is living together and having premarital sex worse than having sex and not living together?

TR--Nope--they are the same--and I struggled with
the living together as well--

like I said..these are things I have recently come to fully understand--and we were recently married--

As the mother of a college student I have a lot of opinions about this --- but more importantly, as a result of experience, I have more opinions.

Sweetie,

Life has a lot of problems that come and go and most of those we can't do anything except face them, act upon them, and move on. But, this particular choice you are making has long term, lasting affects, and will affect your life - for the rest of your life.

I'm going to take this one step further - and share something else.

Giving yourself to a man (or visa versa) before marriage is not something you want to do - because it also has lasting affects. I've heard all the jokes about not buying the grapes because they may be bitter - but the reality is if you get free milk, why by the cow?

I've been around a while and those who don't want to wait, seem to be pushing for 'sexual favors' are also the first out the door in the morning. Talk is cheap - honestly - a man can say anything to get what he wants. He can take you to dinner every night on his visa card, shower you with presents, and give you all kinds of attention for a few weeks or months to get you into his room for viewing his 'etchings' --- but you want more than that from a man who is promising to spend his life with you - you want dedicated commitment. You want to know that he respects, admires, and loves you for the whole you - not just because you satisfy his anatomical demands.

Another issue that I've been dealing with - with my daughter (and I have her blessing to share this) is that you need to be independent enough to know that you don't NEED a man to complete you as a person. Your mom is an incredible woman, and you know her much better than I. I want you to think about something - she's who she is because of the roads she's taken in life - one of those roads has been the choice to become a better person regardless of the choices your father made. He may be a wonderful man - and together they make a wonderful - incredible couple. But take a look at your mom. A real look. She could stand alone, without your Dad if necessary.

To make a marriage work - two complete and whole people are required to come together and become one.

Think about this - seriously. If you are broken or incomplete in any area, for instance you are immature and childish about finances, then you start out with a lopsided view of that part of your lives. This isn't about being disabled or having an issue that needs to be worked on - or even disagreeing about something. It's about being a whole person. When you feel confident in your ability to live on your own, reacting to life's crisis and wonders in a manner that brings confidence and assurance to you - then you are ready for a relationship.

Dating is a process of locating possibilities. I believe I read somewhere on MB that a person should date at least 30 people before they settle on one person - and of those 30 people you should be able to have imagined yourself *in love* with at least three of them. Then you can choose with some understanding of the process of loving the person who is actually most compatible with you.

It sounds a bit austere - but I can honestly say - part of the problem with my first marriage was that I mistook physical attraction on his part for love on my part. I had been emotionally injured and was not healed from those wounds before I stepped into a relationship where neither of us were capable of being "the adult". His issues were childhood abuse and alcohol abuse.

Now, the 'living together issue' ---

Reasons not to live together before marriage...

1. It limits your choices... Get up on your wedding day and realize that you don't really want to be married to this man for the rest of your life. There are all these *buts* in the way... But I've lived with him for three years. But everyone expects me to marry him. But he's so nice to me. But we love each other. But he's the greatest in bed. But he disrespects me at every turn. But he's childish about picking up after himself. But I've learned to deal with his problems.

2. It removes your focus of self and personal achievements and goals during the process of becoming ready for marriage and puts the focus on being a 'mate' while he still has an open door. You still have an open door too - but the reality is you are limiting your ability to become who you want to be - by putting an "other person in the picture" restriction on your life without the commitment that makes it permanent.

3. When the wedding day comes nothing changes ---- WRONG --- EVERYTHING CHANGES. You just made a commitment to be there forever for that man - and now picking up after him and getting his laundry becomes a problem. You did it before, because you wanted to show him how much you care, but now this is real - for the rest of your life real - and you'd like for him to just pick up his own socks and stop by the laundry on his way home instead of you making a special trip.
You didn't misrepresent anything to him - you didn't even *change* - but the dynamic changed. What you used to do to keep him interested is not any longer necessary because he's yours. This goes both ways - now he feels confident to sit in front of the TV three nights a week with his buddies, because he knows you'll be home waiting for him, not out checking Starbucks for the newest hunk in town. When before the wedding - he was at Starbucks being YOUR hunk!!!

4. No matter how much you think you are being REAL - in a living together situation - there are always differences from THERE to after the wedding bells... I swear - wedding bells are like an earthquake shaking up the best relationships and making them feel different. After the wedding you will wake up and wonder who is that man with the slightly protruding chin and funky hair line laying beside you - and he's going to wonder when you started developing those frown lines. It does make a difference!!!

Expectations are the rage during dating - we try to meet our bf/gf's expectations - and after we marry - we try to see how many of those expectations we can get away with not meeting... Even in the best situations where both are trained in MBisms - I believe this is a commonality of marriage.

I'm not saying you can't change that - or make it work - I'm just saying that the dynamic is there and it's harder.

Rules are made to be broken - but it's so much easier to fix a wreck that didn't happen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jan

TR and HPK, I respect you both very much. But as yet, a person cannot be re-virginated. I wish it were available. But this is why I never had premarital sex until age 27. Any later than this, and I would have "stunted myself" for future sex.

Had I waited to have sex until I was married, I would have been the "oldest virgin alive" at age 45. Wow. A virgin at 45. Big thrill.

Life is not ideal. We can shoot for the stars and we will reach the moon anyway!

Re-virginated --- Baba - come on, get a grip --- and a dictionary... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Really, I do have a serious comment here. You can't be 'revirginated' but I do believe very strongly that it's the process of developing a relationship without the stress and duress of having sexual exchanges to deal with as well as the 'relationship' processes. There are issues that loving another person brings to light that include emotional connection and bonding that are imploded through the process of having a physical relationship.

For instance, if you are attempting to connect emotionally with someone and their response is to heighten your physical desire for them - the emotional connection is relegated to the back burner while you explore (or as is often the case) fulfill the other person's physical desires. For instance: In your specific case, Baba. There have been limitations in emotional connection while your H attempts to please you physically - and when you were able to put back those physical demands - your emotional relationship has grown and become far more *connected* allowing for the physical portion of your relationship to improve.

An observation that might help more than one person here.

Jan

Alcohol is a drug. You would not date a man who uses drugs? So is nicotind. Both are legal. Both are addictive.

As for the STD test. You can get negative results though infected and harboring the virus. It may take months after infection before the positive results show up.

baba2,

--I respect you both very much. But as yet, a person cannot be re-virginated. I wish it were available.

TR--As many of us also wish--but, the fact is--God can turn a relationship around if both parties are willing to have some SELF-CONTROL
(one of the fruits of the spirit) and one many men tell women they don't have--"I don't have any control when I'm around you", "See what YOU do to me??" like it's ALL her fault he has no control over his own body--or his actions--and can cause her to feel used and abused later--

This is something that should be a grave concern--
if he can't control himself around her or she around him--then how can they honestly trust they will be able to control themselves later in marriage when things aren't perfect and problems begin to arise, and the situation of an affair comes up??

--But this is why I never had premarital sex until age 27. Any later than this, and I would have "stunted myself" for future sex.--

TR--The only reason why?? or were there others as well? And yes, I agree 100% that pre-martial sex can stunt you for future sex--even within your marriage--

---Had I waited to have sex until I was married, I would have been the "oldest virgin alive" at age 45. Wow. A virgin at 45. Big thrill.--

TR--Why don't you think it would have been a big thrill? looking back on my own life--I wish I would have had someone there to encourage me to WAIT!! and share with me why I should wait--
other than the fear of getting pregnant--

--Life is not ideal. We can shoot for the stars and we will reach the moon anyway! --

TR--But why not just shoot for the moon to begin with?? why waste time making sure your hitting all the little bumps in the road when you don't need too?? when you know you can avoid at least a few of them--

TR, i meant if I had NOT had sex, finally, at age 27, I would have ruined and stunted my sex drive. Good sex takes practice and learning about the nerves and things in our bodies and waiting until age 45, by then, the nerves in my body would have been unused for so long they would be dead. I had three long term boyfriends(the only men I ever had sex with) from age 27 to age 43. Then I met my husband.

I am not saying what I did was right, only that it was right for me since I was not ready to get married at age 27 and the man I was with was not the right man to marry.

It took me at least 5 years to enjoy sex because of my strict religious upbringing.

baby star*fish,

There are a few other things that have me concerned that I would also like to address as well---


--it seemed pointless for him to pay for an apartment he wasn't using.

TR--Why does it seem pointless that YOU know he can pay his own way and support you and a future family?? Knowing he can handle money wisely--or even in knowing he would be willing to do so--

--He quit his offshore job at my request (and for a few other reasons) because it was very hard on our relationship. and he is now making a lot less money than he was when we first met.

TR--Shouldn't you both learn and understand that you really can live on less income if needed?? what if after your married one of you looses your job for some reason--you'll need to know you'll both be able to support each other emotionally during those times--


--This doesn't bother him in any way but now he wants to go to college in the fall and he's trying to save money in order to do so.

TR--He's trying--but is he being successful?? and why couldn't he learn to do this while not living with you??

--My condo is payed for so the only thing he pays for is groceries and other household items.

TR--So what happens when you have a house payment or rent, as well as groceries, car payment, baby food, diapers, clothes and all the other expenses that come with life??

--We get along wonderfully and we are very aware of each other's feelings and concerns so it never occured to me that living with him might not be the best idea.

TR--Then why not just get married?? Why live together first?? If your willing to make the commitment to live together---why not get married and make the total commitment??


--Like I said, we definetly plan on getting married in the future, but right now we are not financially able to do so (besides, my parents would kill me).

TR--why would your parent kill you if you plan to marry in the future anyway?? If you are not financially able to get married right now, what makes you think your financially ready to live together now??


--We are very positive influences on each other...he pushes me to do better, be more ambitious etc. And I help him to be more open-minded.

TR--And you can continue to do this not living together--and learn to be there for each other emotionally--building a bond that will be stronger

<small>[ January 03, 2004, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

Ok--for everyone urging me to not have sex before marriage--

It's happened, it's happening--I'm not going to change that. I think that sex is an important part of getting to know someone... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Maybe that's my age coming out....I'll admit I did start too early (15) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , but it happened and I'm over it...

Someone made a comment about dating at least 30 people before you get married and feeling "in love" with at least three of them....
Well then I guess I'm ready to get married then. Don't think that just because I'm only 20 years old I haven't had any dating experience. The way some of ya'll are carrying on it makes it seem like this is my first relationship! Sorry, but that's hardly the case....

TR---
I know you don't know my financial situation, so I'll enlighten you...

I am a spoiled brat <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ...I don't pay for anything. I'm in college so my parents support me financially. My bf pays for way more around my house than I do. If he's in trouble, I'll help him out and vice versa, but our finances are kept pretty seperate most of the time.

He IS succeeding in saving money for college as well...that's one reason I'm not worried about wether or not he can support a family...he's going to college and he's very intelligent and ambitious. I have no doubt in my mind that he will one day have a fabulous career. He's 21...he doesn't need to support a family right now because we don't have one...I don't even expect him to support me...and I'm not going to support him either.

Also TR--I said in my original post that I already knew God's reasons and I did not need to hear them again.

Again, I appreciate everyone's input...
Some of this stuff just isn't flying with me though. I can't see how some of it would be any different if we weren't living together...
People get old, become less desirable...I will ALWAYS hate picking up dirty laundry...Doesn't that happen when you get married anyway? I don't know....maybe I'm just not looking at this the right way....
Help me out... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Hey baby Star*fish ---

The fun part of asking for advice is that you get to take it and do whatever you want with it - including discarding and ignoring it.

You ask, we answered - there are sound solid reasons - if this is on of those lessons you have to learn for yourself... Enjoy the learning process. I won't get in your way, and just like I've told my daughter, I'll still be here to help you up when you fall down... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Happy hunting.

Jan

i get this feeling that you are a hands on type of person.....one who needs to find things out for herself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
but you are obviously doing your research and doing it well.....a little like your mother maybe? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

i think it is great you are here. i wish you well. no advice or stories from me this this time around...just well wishes.
and i get this feeling that things will go well for you in the end no matter what you do.
a little like your mother maybe? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
i think she's great, by the way.
good luck to you ....have fun....be sensible, but not too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ January 03, 2004, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Hands On? LOL Yeah that sounds like me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sorry I got a little defensive...it's not usually my style. I think maybe I'm just confusing myself by thinking about it too much! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

But I have been reading these posts over and over (and so has my bf). We both knew from the beginning that we probably shouldn't live together......and now we've decided to NOT live together. I just NEED to know WHY....I don't think I truly understand that yet....but I see what ya'll are gettin at..

You know that saying "curiosity killed the cat?" Well, I'm the cat and I've been hit by one too many trucks........this time, I'll take the crosswalk. Thank God I have nine lives!

I don't want any of you to think that I don't respect your advice or opinions...I really really do!

Thank ya'll for everything and God Bless!!

Baby Star*fish,
You said in an earlier post that you decided to put off living together. I think that is a wise decision. If you do change your mind and end up living together before marriage, I think the best thing you can do is seek premarital/pre-engagement counseling. You don't need to be having ANY problems to do this. You will have someone who can help you learn more about each other and even dig up some potential problems...these can be addressed before they become big issues that are complicated to deal with. Since money isn't an issue, I see no excuse for not taking advantage of individual and couples counseling.

The reason I came to MB (6 months before I was engaged), was to learn about those potential and inevitable pitfalls in marriage. I was also fortunate to have a bf who was willing to communicate about difficult topics even though they did not appear to be problematic. Use that to your advantage. Take the questionnaires. I still think that regardless of the number of relationship you have had, you still will change a lot over the next 5 years or so. I don't think it's wrong to have a serious relationship (nor a physical one) with this man. But, the problem arises when you start talking about marriage and it suddenly becomes very difficult to recognize boundaries and things you don't want in your life. Yes, you can ask yourself if certain things cross your boundaries and if you are willing to change, but don't sell yourself on marriage so young. You two might be completely different people in a few years and decide to part ways. If you live together and become formally or informally engaged, that decision becomes much more difficult. You'll have a lot more invested and you may make a poor decision.
Have fun with this wonderful man. Love him, treat him well...treat yourself well. Ask yourself if he is the kind of man you can see yourself loving forever, but don't make decisions that will trap you (or him) prematurely. At the same time, realize that one of the big problems with cohabitation is that a couple learns to live in a "rental agreement". Does someone have the info on Harley's book which talks about this? I think that's pretty relevant to this thread, but haven't read it myself.

As for the premarital sex issue, I really go against the grain in these boards. I haven't been sold on not having sex before marriage. But sex can be a real mind "f", as well. It can control aspects of your relationship and mask problems. You need to be aware of those potential problems and analyse yourself and your relationship.
I had multiple sex partners before my current relationship. I have a problem with alcohol (not excessive drinking)...I get really horny. I still do and boy does my fiance love taking advantage of that. One beer and I'm a wild woman (thought not drunk...just really, really horny <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ). Anyway, I had unprotected sex with multiple men. I was emotionally troubled and felt more important, more liked, more attractive if a man wanted to have sex with me. I do regret letting myself be used that way. It is horrible. My fiance wishes he had more partners before me...he was big enough not to take advantage of girls who threw themselves on him, though. Most girls who do that have emotional issues that need serious attention.
On the other hand, I do not regret having sex before my current relationship. That's easy to say because I got lucky and did not get pregnant or receive any STDs...I got VERY lucky. 4.5 years ago, my fiance cheated on me (one night stand). He gave me HPV which now puts me at risk for cervical cancer. There are certain STDs (like HPV) that go completely undetected in men (and many women) that can be transmitted even if a condom is used. When you go to get tested for STDs, only a small handful are a part of that testing.
My point is that no matter how smart you try to be about protecting yourself from STDs, these guys are right. Abstinence is the only smart way. Despite that, I do believe in premarital sex (though I wouldn't push anyone to do this if they chose not to). I think sexual compatibility is about more than pegs and holes and I think it is just too important of an issue in marriage to pretend like it's something that can wait until after the final decision is made.
Girls should not sleep around. It is physically and mentally a very dangerous activity. But, if you have found a man that you are considering for marriage, I think protected sex is fine and beneficial to the relationship in many ways if it is not "misused". Keep in mind that I am not at all religious, so the words of God mean very little to me.

Your mom probably hates me for saying these things, but also keep in mind that I am also young...not nearly as experienced as most of the posters in these forums. The reason I decided to be open about this topic, all the while knowing I'll get flamed from here to h@ll by some of the posters, is that I want you to know that I understand where you are coming from. I made mistakes and got lucky. You might, as well. But, you might not. Then again, I'm not even married yet, and no one here can predict our success. Still, I think I would be very turned off by the approach that some of the posters are taking if I were in your shoes. I'd probably feel pretty defensive of my choices and perspectives. But, keep reading them and thinking about them, anyway. Pull out the parts that will help you make good decisions and respect your mind and body. Don't let aa less than ideal approach keep you from hearing some really good messages...and there are many of those here.

Smile

<small>[ January 03, 2004, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

baby star*fish,

I know that you say your not going to do this but
tell us something--

Other than it will help him financially--and of course the sex--

Why do you think you SHOULD live together before you get married?

What do you think you will learn about each other
that you can't learn about each other without living together first?

I'm not trying to answer for her, but for me, when 5x and I decided to move in together, it really was a financial decision. No one ever told us about any of the potential problems. We didn't do it to get to know each other better or proove anything to anybody. We did it because we already were practically living together and spent all of our time together and so it just seemed like a logical thing to do. Had I known about MB before that, things might very well have gone differently. You all probably would have talked me out of it fairly quickly.
So far, I have no reason to regret my decision, but I definitely wonder if it will hurt us in the long run. That's one of the reasons I've spent so much time on these boards asking so many questions.

Smile

<small>[ January 03, 2004, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

SmileADay, & Baby Star*fish,

--I haven't been sold on not having sex before marriage.

TR--When I was your age--I wasn't sold on it either--but 20 years later--having been through what I have--my thoughts and opinions on this have changed--and also having children of my own has helped change this perspective--

--I had multiple sex partners before my current relationship.

TR--As did I

--I was emotionally troubled and felt more important, more liked, more attractive if a man wanted to have sex with me. I do regret letting myself be used that way. It is horrible.

TR--again--I've been here too--(do we see a pattern building??)

--On the other hand, I do not regret having sex before my current relationship.

TR--I'm recently remarried--and I do have those regrets..as my new husband hasn't had near the partners I have had--although he has no regrets
in that area--

--That's easy to say because I got lucky and did not get pregnant or receive any STDs...

TR--As was I and many others here as well--

--I think sexual compatibility is about more than pegs and holes and I think it is just too important of an issue in marriage to pretend like it's something that can wait until after the final decision is made.--

TR-- here is where we disagree, and I would contribute that to much of what I learned over the years--

--Girls should not sleep around. It is physically and mentally a very dangerous activity.

TR--And guys should????

--The reason I decided to be open about this topic, all the while knowing I'll get flamed from here to h@ll by some of the posters, is that I want you to know that I understand where you are coming from. --

TR--believe it or not--we also understand where she is coming from--just because we are older doesn't mean we don't remember what it was like for us at that age--most of us remember all to well what it was like at that age--which is why we share the advice we do--

TR--

Smile is absolutely right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ...it really was a financial decision...he wasn't using his apartment at all....we spend a lot of time together and it just seemed to make a lot of sense at the time.

I'm not totally naiive TR....gimme a break. I know that it is possible to get to know someone while not living with them

And why would you think that sex had a factor in it at all? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I'm sorry to be pissy, but that really offends me....besides, it really has nothing to do with it

I don't mean to be vulgar, but I can have sex in a car while not living with someone just as easily as in a bed that belongs to both of us

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">--Girls should not sleep around. It is physically and mentally a very dangerous activity.

TR--And guys should????
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, since we're not talking about homosexuals (at least I'm not), I kind of figured that would go without saying. If the girls aren't sleeping around, then the guys are likely becoming fairly intimate with ol' righty.
Guys are just as like to get and pass on STDs, although I think girls are more susceptible to emotional damage...I could be wrong. I figure guys do it more for bragging rights and orgasms while girls are more likely to do it for emotional reasons.
Still, I wish more young men were educated about the emotional damage and likely previous emotional problems that cause many young women to be easy. I think when guys and girls sleep around, we are dealing with two entirely different issues emotionally and I don't think many guys and girls understand those differences until long after the fact.

Smile

SmileADay,

I think one of the reasons my views have changed over the years--is because:

I really hate it when my children ask me questions about my past--

and as I sit there looking in their eyes answering
them with all honesty it tears my heart up--it really hurts to see that look of disappointment on their faces as they realize mom did things she tells them not to do--and yet I share because of things I've learned and I know it builds that trust that they can talk to me about anything-- it still hurts

I think that is one of the main reasons I have the regrets I do--is knowing that I want so much MORE for my kids--and realizing, I deserved that too

And maybe one day when you have all those children in your home--turning into teenagers--
and they begin to ask you questions about your past--

Or when one of your daughters comes in the house at the age of 13 or 14 and tells you about some of her friends who are saying they want to have baby's--or that one of them is dating an adult man
in his 20's--which in most states is still considered statutory rape--

maybe then you will understand where many of us are coming from now--

Smile--I just now read your longer post--

Thank you for the advice...I agree with about 99.9% of what your saying <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

TR--I apologize for snapping in my last post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />
Instant reaction I guess...I should probably wait 10 mins before I reply to anything. Sorry!

But, TR, I think you are much more equipped to help them when you can tell them things you did wrong, than if you tell them not to do things you have little knowledge about.

I think you will appear much more "real"...much more like them if you acted on the same feelings they are experiencing. I don't think there is anything wrong with telling your children that you made mistakes...we all do. That's how we learn. They will either learn from your mistakes, or from their own.

Smile

babyfish.....curious......is your bf from a very religious family that strongly beleives in sexual abstinence before marriage?

if so, what are bf's views on this?

personally, i do not advocate sleeping around for either sex........but, i do not understand the benefits of no sex before marriage either.
and, just as an observation..i have noticed many serious marriage/sexual problems on this board from people who remained vigins untill marriage.
i see living together and abstinence as 2 seperate issues.

<small>[ January 03, 2004, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

SmileADay,

As a mother I would much rather be able to tell my kids to do what is right by Bibilical standards because I did--not because I didn't--

--But, TR, I think you are much more equipped to help them when you can tell them things you did wrong, than if you tell them not to do things you have little knowledge about.--

TR--And if I had no regrets about those choices--
how do you think I would advise my children??

Especially when they ask--do you regret that choice? and why? (and yes, my kids ask)

If they seen my choices had no regrets..which do you think they would choose to do?? follow my path
or choose another less pain filled one??


--I think you will appear much more "real"...much more like them if you acted on the same feelings they are experiencing. I don't think there is anything wrong with telling your children that you made mistakes...we all do. That's how we learn.

TR--I know...which is why I talk to them--if I want them to feel safe being open and honest with me--I must respect them enough to do the same--even when it hurts...

But even parents who waited to have sex--or who didn't do drugs, and so forth--have made mistakes
just not the same one's--and can share those as well--

--They will either learn from your mistakes, or from their own.

TR-- they will probably learn much from both--I just want them to feel safe talking to me when they make their own--

nelly...his family is extremely religious...bf was brought up to believe that sex was evil and very abnormal. Family, community, and school all told him that sexual urges were sinful and wrong.

When he left his family, he exploded. He slept around (a lot) and had sex with any woman that was willing. I was aware of this (we were friends before we started dating) and I asked him if he wouldn't mind being tested before we had sex. After he was tested, we waited another month.....

After a few months of being sexually active, he was still struggling with a lot of religious issues concerning sex, so we stopped....also, he said he felt weird about having sex with me because he loved me and sex was supposed to be evil. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He is still dealing with some of these issues, although not to an extreme anymore. We are sexually active now and he prefers it that way (Of course, he is a MAN). But if he changes his mind and decides otherwise, I will support him in that decision.

I have advised that he get counceling for the sex issue (as well as some others brought on by his up-bringing) and he's starting to think that would be a good idea.

I hope I'm not making him out to be some sort of psychological head-case....he's actually pretty stable....but he does have problems like everyone else and he's willing to take the steps to correct them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As far as sleeping around goes, I don't think it's a good idea for anyone--male or female--
However, I'm like you nelly....I don't see the benefits in abstaining until marriage either.

I believe there is a huge difference between sleeping around and having sex with a long term partner.

I learned things (even besides sex) from my 3 long term boyfriends that I could not learn any other way. These things help me now in my "permanent" relationship with my husband.

I have a couple friends who met at age 21, married at age 23, virgins, had sex only with each other, etc.

This is the ideal if you can get it. But the downside is they both had to grow up together and fight things out being so immature. They did lots of stupid things in life because neither one had much experiance with relationships or life.....after 25 years, they have "made it through" without divorce although they did come close several times.

I think I made most of my worst mistakes in my three relationships and now in my marriage, I am making the least mistakes I have ever made. Those other guys had to "live with the bulk of me growing and changing and my insecurities"...

My husband sees a little remnant of that other woman I used to be but mostly he gets to see and bring out the best in me now.

So, getting married too young can hurt your growth as well as becoming a NUN and having NO sex before marriage can hurt ya too.

If we do not experiance some of what life has to offer, how do we know how to choose right from wrong?

The thing is to experiance some of life but not get dragged down by too many "permanent" mistakes. It is a balance. And God can help lead us.

I was way too sheltered as a child and when I finally got out in the world, I had to really work hard to let myself "loosen up" and experiance things after being taught for 20 years that almost everything we do is evil.

I had to learn that this was simply not true and that we had been given "freedom and brains" from God to make choices from those in front of us.

None of my relationships were damaging. I was lucky. But I screened the men I dated so that I only dated good men. Men who had lots to offer. Men who were not neurotic or damaged. Positive thinking men. You cannot go far wrong if you stick near good people.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TR--And if I had no regrets about those choices--
how do you think I would advise my children??
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, you are saying that you DO have regrets, are you not?
If you don't have regrets, why would you tell your kids not to do it?

SmileADay,

--But, you are saying that you DO have regrets, are you not?

TR--yes, I am--

--If you don't have regrets, why would you tell your kids not to do it?

TR--But even with some things even though I do not regret them--I wouldn't want my children to follow in my foot steps--because even with those choices--I made them because of wrong choices--

Like for example--I do not regret having been married to their father--because I have them through that relationship--but I would not want them to marry someone for the wrong reasons--like I did--so even though no, I don't regret that marriage--I do regret the circumstances in which it began--and ended--and I would not want them go
through the same thing---

If I had been blest with the wisdom of older women who had walked the path I was walking--
I wouldn't have made many of the mistakes I did

I was not raised to believe sex was evil--or even that adultry was wrong--lying, stealing, yes they were wrong, getting drunk at 10, using drugs they weren't wrong--if you were going to do drugs--make sure you had enough for everyone--

So yes, even though many things I did I regret,
I learned from, and many things I have done I don't regret again, because I learned from them
but that does not mean I want my kids doing them--

Do I regret smoking pot as a teen?? No, not really, because I learned a lot about myself after the fact--but, I don't want my kids smoking pot in order to learn some lesson--

I had one child from a man I was not married too--do I regret having her?? No, I do not--but I don't want my children doing the same thing--as I have lived it--and I know how difficult and painful it is--

So you see, not all choices have regrets..but I still wouldn't want my children to make them--
just because I did--

baby star*fish...sorry about stealing your thread.

TR, I think this is a very good conversation and would like to keep chatting. Should we move to a new thread?

SmileADay,

--TR, I think this is a very good conversation and would like to keep chatting. Should we move to a new thread? --

TR--We could, but I think they could benefit--but if she would like for us to start another thread that would be fine--

I realize that both of your situations are some what different yet also in many ways the same as mine when I was your ages--and yes, I says ages, because, like both of you--I was one who had to learn from *my own* mistakes, but like I also stated earlier I didn't have the benefit of wisdom from older women who had been there and done that--and even then I didn't learn the first time around--so I had to go through it again--


I don't know much about your childhoods and things you've experienced, or even what you've learned about yourselves from those experiences--

But please allow me share some things with you--and yes, even as a Christian I did these things--so I am speaking from much experience--

I lived with my last husband before we married--we dated off an on for 4 years before we made that decision--there were things I seen--but over looked--and things I didn't see--that in looking back I can see now--

The reasons we chose to live together?? were the same as your's--

It was financially 'cheaper' to live together than paying for two households--one of which was barely lived at--so why pay for two households???

Now, that being said--when we married things changed--

before marriage--we used joint finances because that was the reason for the living situation--

After marriage--well--he didn't want me to work
and became very adament about it--He was the man of the house--and that was HIS responsibility to support his family--and the money became HIS money--and was no longer "our money" because well
I didn't work outside the home--

I worked w/ other men--and He didn't like that--(never said anything about it before hand)but it bothered him tremendously--

My daughter I mentioned earlier--He didn't like the fact that I made sure her and her bio-grandparents and father had a relationship--(again, not something he mentioned before hand)
and insisted that end after we married--

He didn't like me going to church--yet he went with me before we married---said He didn't like the church--didn't like the Pastor--so he picked a much smaller church--one with about 100 people as opposed to the one I had gone to w/ over 20,000
people--he liked it because there were no single men my age--and while I was pregnant--one of the younger men (the pastors son) came over and did some yard work for me (as he wasn't here to do it) He didn't want me going anywhere to church after that--as there was always the possiblity of me meeting another man--

He didn't have a problem w/ my female friends before we married---yet, after we married that changed too--he didn't like any of them--and even new friends I made--he didn't like--he didn't even want to get to know them--as they became a threat to him--

friends from his past--I met some of them before we married--and we did a few things with them--after we married--that changed too--he never even wanted to talk to them on the phone when they called--

My past relationships--that he said he 'didn't' have a problem with--started being thrown up in my face--

Now, I realize that NOT ALL MEN are like this--but all of his insecurities and such came out full force after we married--

Like I said--those things were hidden to a degree-had I really looked at some of the "other" little things I would have realized it before hand---

And smile--my mother--like yours--was fooled by many things as well--and she pushed for the relationship--based on how he acted around her and other family members--to the point I over looked many of the very things I shouldn't have--because I trusted their opinion--

After the marriage--they couldn't believe the 180 they felt occured--but had I been honest with myself--and really paid attention to huge warning signs--I never would have married him--

And because of things from my own past--things I hadn't dealt with--painful emotions were also triggered--which didn't help the situation at all-

So if there are any painful things that have happened to you in your past that you haven't worked through or dealt with--I suggest you do--before you make that commitment--

Any resentments--any unforgiveness--and make sure
they have done the same--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So if there are any painful things that have happened to you in your past that you haven't worked through or dealt with--I suggest you do--before you make that commitment--
Any resentments--any unforgiveness--and make sure
they have done the same--</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed 100%.

All of those things you mentioned that your H didn't want after marriage but didn't complain about before marriage...what does that have to do with cohabitation? The only thing I can think of is that you were just fooled all the more because after living with him you THOUGHT you knew him better. I don't think you would have been better off in terms of his dishonesty had you not lived together. Any relationship that does such a huge 180 is bound for a train wreck.
That said, please recall that I am not for cohabitation as I agree there are other serious, longterm problems that tend to arise. And like I said before, had I found the wisdom of this site before moving in with him, I might not have.
Having already made the decision, I can spend all kinds of time justifying my decision and working to beat the odds. And you're right, if my kids ever ask if I cohabitated and I'm still married happily at that point, I'd have a difficult time saying I regret the decision and dissuading them from the same decision. But, at the same time, I'm not blind about the subject and can present arguments that will at least encourage them to make an educated decision and not a blind one like I did.

Your decision to move in together may have been completely financial, but given the show your ex had to have put on during that time, I doubt that was his complete motivation. If a couple moves in together with the intent to "test the waters", I can completely see the dangers. I can also see how one way or another, any couple who moves in together not married and get married afterward, is in some fashion testing the waters whether that was the reason for moving in or not. Again, I'm not advocating cohabitation, anymore.

Smile

Ah....I see my little starfish is surrounded by controversy (as usual) *smile*. I don't want to muddy up this thread with mama advice....I get that opportunity enough....but I'm going to give some good solid MB advice...like I would give anyone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Here's what Dr. Harley has to say:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The number of unmarried couples living together has increased dramatically over the past few decades, and I expect that it will continue to increase. The rationale is simple: "By living together before marriage, we'll know how compatible we are." Presumably, if a couple can get along living in the same apartment before marriage, they will be able to get along with each other after marriage.

It's a tempting argument. After all, a date tends to be artificial. Each person is "up" for the occasion, and they make an effort to have a good time together. But marriage is quite different from dating. In marriage, couples are together when they're "down," too. Wouldn't it make sense for a couple to live together for a while, just to see how they react to each other's "down" times? If they discover that they can't adjust when they live together, they don't have to go through the hassle of a divorce. Besides, isn't it easier to adjust when you don't feel trapped by marriage?

The problem with those arguments is that marriage changes everything. If couples that live together think that after marriage everything will be the same, they don't understand what marriage does to a couple, both positively and negatively.

In my experience and in reports I've read, the chances of a divorce after living together are huge, much higher than for couples who have not lived together prior to marriage. If living together were a test of marital compatibility, the statistics should show opposite results -- couples living together should have stronger marriages. But they don't. They have weaker marriages.

To understand why this is the case, I suggest that you consider why couples who live together don't marry. Ask yourself that very question. Why did you choose to live with your boyfriend instead of marrying him?

The answer is that you were not ready to make that commitment to him yet. First, you wanted to see if you still loved him after you cooked meals together, cleaned the apartment together and slept together. In other words, you wanted to see what married life would be like without the commitment of marriage.

But what you don't seem to realize is that you will never know what married life is like unless you're married. The commitment of marriage adds a dimension to your relationship that puts everything on its ear. Right now, you are testing each other to see if you are compatible. If either of you slips up, the test is over, and you are out the door. Marriage doesn't work that way. Slip-ups don't end the marriage, they just end the love you have for each other.

What, exactly, is the commitment of marriage? It is an agreement that you will take care of each other for life, regardless of life's ups and downs. You will stick it out together through thick and thin. But the commitment of living together isn't like that at all. It is simply a month-to-month rental agreement. As long as you behave yourself and keep me happy, I'll stick around.

Habits are hard to break, and couples that live together before marriage get into the habit of following their month-to-month rental agreement. In fact, they often decide to marry, not because they are willing to make a lifetime commitment to each other, but because the arrangement has worked out so well that they can't imagine breaking their lease, so to speak. They say the words of the marital agreement, but they still have the terms of their rental agreement in mind.

Couples who have not lived together before marriage, on the other hand, have not lived under the terms of the month-to-month rental agreement. They begin their relationship assuming that they are in this thing for life, and all their habits usually reflect that commitment.

The Policy of Joint Agreement, for example, doesn't make much sense for a couple living together prior to marriage. "Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your friend," it is thought, would not be a fair test of yur compatibility. Aver you please, and then see if you still get along.

But a newly married couple makes a deliberate effort to accommodate each other, because they know their relationship will be for life. They want to build compatibility, not test it. So the Policy of Joint Agreement makes all the sense in the world to a couple who has set out to live their lives together.

It's true, that a couple who lives together can follow the Policy of Joint Agreement from the day they move in. They can commit themselves to each other's happiness as if they were married. They can overcome Love Busters that could destroy their love for each other. But couples who live together tend not to do those things because their month-to-month rental agreement does not demand it. They lack motivation to put each other first in their lives because they are testing the relationship. They're not sure they want each other for life, and so they are usually not willing to make the all-out commitment that the Policy of Joint Agreement demands.

When a couple has lived together without the Policy of Joint Agreement, it's very difficult to apply it once they are married. What they usually do is stay the course. They figure that their month-to-month agreement got them that far, so why change it.

Marriage has a very positive effect on a relationship for those who have not lived together, because they tend to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement without having ever heard of it. They know that they will be together for life, so they make an effort to create a compatible lifestyle from day one.

But marriage has a very negative effect on those who have been in the habit of following the month-to-month agreement. The commitment of marriage is seen as the "other guy's" commitment. Those who have lived together prior to marriage feel that their own behavior has passed the test, and any further accommodation should be unnecessary. Worse yet, they think they don't need to be on their best behavior because their spouse can't leave now that they're married.

Habits are hard to break, and those who have lived together develop habits that work only when they're not married. Marriage ruins it all.

Now, I'm not suggesting that you and your boyfriend should avoid marriage, but I'm warning you that unless you break out of the habits that come from a month-to-month rental agreement, your marriage will be a disaster.

Begin by following my Policy of Joint Agreement. It's not impossible to follow when you care for each other's feelings and put them first in your life. You will create a lifestyle that fits you both perfectly, and you'll wonder why you didn't marry each other to begin with.

Living together may prove compatibility for a moment in time, but it provides no evidence for your happiness together over a lifetime. The only way you can have that happiness and compatibility is if you agree to take each other's feelings into account every time you make a decision. And that's what people who marry after
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here are some sites to visit with good solid statistics and information about co-habitation:

http://members.aol.com/cohabiting/

http://www.rmfc.org/fs/fs0064.html

http://www.ivillage.com/relationshi...p;arrival_freqCap=1&pba=adid=6861398


Smile....you're wrong...I DO consider you a friend. We also agree about something I doubt you will imagine we do...and and it is perhaps my greatest failing in the eyes of the most spirtual here: I would never consider marrying someone I didn't already know I was sexually compatible with. I would also not advise my child to marry without exploring this aspect of life with a potential mate. I know that puts me at odds with the bible and God's laws....I've been called down on it many times here. I am NOT talking about promiscuity....and yet....please understand that sexual compatibility BEFORE marriage only raises the odds that you may be able to sustain that kind of compatibility....it is NO guarantee! Many people on this board have had good premarital sex only to have it evaporate when other problems arose.

babystar....I'm going to butt out now and let you hear stuff from some other folks besides me. I thank all of you for helping her and all the great advice....jan, TR, nelly, baba, dzzz and smile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

editted to add: oh and babystar...no getting pissy and defensive okay? You came here for different POVs...so you are getting them...and the folks who take the time to answer you are using THEIR time freely and unselfishly to help you so thank them...and think about it. If you want to make a point...please make it respectfully so my friends know I taught you some manners. I love you and I'm so proud of you baby. Knowledge is power.

<small>[ January 05, 2004, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

such a wise mama star*fish. you are a lucky girl, baby*fish.
but, i bet you hear that so often that it gets annoying. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

wishing you both well.

Smile,

After reading Star's post--go back and re-read my post about some of the thing's that changed AFTER the marriage--

We only lived together a couple months before we actually married--we didn't live together for a year or two or three or four--and marriage brought to light things that were hidden--during the dating process, and even through living together--

and because the commitment was made at that point I couldn't just leave--but even with that--three months into the marriage instead of learning to talk out these issues and work through them---he took a job that required him to travel--

and his basic attitude was--were married--you can't leave me because *God* hates divorce--and you just have to live with it--I'm not changing, but you have too, I'm the man of the family and God says you have to *submit* to what I say--and I don't care if your happy about it or not--

His attitude was not of love--it was one of controling another person--it was some what disquised during dating..and it certainly wasn't that way the few months we lived together before we married--but marriage changed the dynamics of the entire relationship--that just dating and/or living together never would have brought out--

Those were the sale pieces to get the consumer to come in to the store before they hit you up with all the hidden costs---they put their best product
out front--painting over the flaws--dressing them up and covering them up with slip covers--


Or the person looking to sell their home--they put in new carpet, and add a new coat of paint--but they don't tell you the foundation is faulty--
and they don't show/tell you about all the underlying troubles within the house--like the leaking water pipes within the walls--or the electrical wiring is faulty--and they don't want you to ask about those things either--they divert your attention to the new paint, and new flooring they just added--

That is what marriage is all about--learning about all the flaws you were never shown before hand--and figuring out how to work with those flaws--

TR--I understand that marriage brings about a new world, a new environment, new boundaries...new personalities in many cases.
I understand that cohabitation is problematic because of the actual reasoning behind deciding to live together before marriage (i.e. testing the waters/not making a full on committment). I don't understand why you keep bringing up the fact that your ex had serious control issues in relation to cohabitation...especially since you only lived together for a very short period out of wedlock.
Unless you are implying that there is a specific TYPE of person who would choose to cohabitate (lack of religion, committment issues, poor upbringing, insufficient finances, etc.), I don't see what you're getting at. Your ex would have pulled that crap whether or not you lived together for those few months. I don't think that your failed marriage is an example of why cohabitation is problematic. I think it's an example of why dishonesty, misrepresentation, controlling personalities, and flat out jerks don't make for a happy marriage.

I'll repeat myself...I do not support cohabitation even though I am currently doing it. Even if it turns out to be beneficial for us, there is too much reasoning behind not taking the chance.

Star, your words meant a lot to me.
Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Smile

I feel that if you live together for two years, you see what marriage will be like. People cannot "hide" thier true colors very long.

How long can people hide who they are? Maybe 6 to 8 months? So live together longer than that if you are engaged.

My idea of living together is to only live together when planning on marriage within a year or so. That way, it is done to "help" rather than "hurt" the marriage.

If you find out you are incompatable living together, then you can bail out and you will not have to be "married, then divorced with three kids".

If you find out, living together, the many areas that YOU ARE COMPATABLE more power to ya, you can go get married with no doubts.

Our incompatability in the sexual area was seen by me when we lived together. I still wanted to marry him thinking we could work it out. Since we were compatable in all other areas. Maybe looking back, I should have tried harder to work it out while we were still living together instead of going and getting married. I do not know which would have been best.

But for us, we have the time to work out any problems because we do not have children. So we have the luxury of time and money. Many won't have this nor will they have a moment to themselves once children come along.

We are lucky in that my "baby fever" never kicked in, I have a tubal ligation, and my husband already raised his daughter (with bad results and all the ups and downs kids bring) so he NEVER wanted more kids.

We are lucky. We have time and money for each other and can work out any small incompatabilities.

SmileADay,


-- I don't understand why you keep bringing up the fact that your ex had serious control issues in relation to cohabitation...especially since you only lived together for a very short period out of wedlock.--

TR--I guess my main point here is that in dating and living together situations--we often over look things we shouldn't--

When only dating you do tend to notice some things more--but when your living together--you tend to over look and even blow off many of those same things--

--Unless you are implying that there is a specific TYPE of person who would choose to cohabitate (lack of religion, committment issues, poor upbringing, insufficient finances, etc.), I don't see what you're getting at.

TR--And in all honesty--it has no bearing on a specific TYPE of person--their values, commitment or anything--just that most people while dating and or living together--tend to wear a mask--and that mask is based on how can I get this person to fall in love with and eventually marry me??


--Your ex would have pulled that crap whether or not you lived together for those few months. I don't think that your failed marriage is an example of why cohabitation is problematic.

TR--And I agree 100%--

--I think it's an example of why dishonesty, misrepresentation, controlling personalities, and flat out jerks don't make for a happy marriage.

TR--It's partly that and partly about learning that it's okay to share all sides of yourself good and bad--and learning to accept that if they don't like you--or even fall in love with you--it's okay--

And if in the process--you find there are areas you really should change (like the last three or four people I dated had a problem w/ me in this area) then maybe it's time to really look at those areas--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Baba said:
My idea of living together is to only live together when planning on marriage within a year or so. That way, it is done to "help" rather than "hurt" the marriage.
If you find out you are incompatable living together, then you can bail out and you will not have to be "married, then divorced with three kids". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, doesn't this directly go against what Harley is trying to warn people about? I agree with Harley about the rental agreement attitude. The lifestyle that if things get too complicated, hurtful, whatever, one person can still escape because they haven't married. Even though engaged, they're still testing the waters. I also think engagements (along with marriage) are thrown around too haphazardly. An engagement should not be a trial period as Baba seems to be describing it. It should be the period where people plan their wedding, not their compatibility. All deal-breakers should have been discussed long before the commitment that I believe should accompany an engagement. And I think that is what people are trying to say about cohabitation. Living together should be accompanied by the same committment that comes with the wedding. And some people feel the same way about premarital sex. Premarital sex should be accompanied by the same committment that comes with marriage...though, I don't agree with this one. While the risks which come with premarital sex make it a smart decision to abstain, the problems that develop in marriage out of sexual incompatibility warrant (IMO) premarital sex. While irresponsible premarital sex may be more risky than the problems that can arise out of the lack of knowledge about sexual incompatibility, safe sex seems less risky than abstinence in terms of sexual compatibility in marriage.
I realize that my rationale does not take religious guidelines and traditions into consideration and so I understand there is an entirely different argument lingering. But, from a purely secular, logical standpoint, this is what I believe.

Smile

SmileADay,


-- An engagement should not be a trial period as Baba seems to be describing it. It should be the period where people plan their wedding, not their compatibility. All deal-breakers should have been discussed long before the commitment that I believe should accompany an engagement.--

TR--Actually, I think that dating as in a serious we aren't dating anyone else type thing--is a type of 'engagement' because for most people when they make that decision to only date that one person--the ultimate goal is eventual marriage--
whether marriage is 'discussed' at that point or not--that is typically the reason most people choose to only date one person--

And the actual "engagement" you've been asked to marry this person type thing--is the time to really look deeper at any issues that haven't been worked through before--which is why most typical pre-marriage counseling is done within weeks/months of the actual ceremony--so that hopefully you will really look closer at any of these issues--before you actually walk down the aisle--

And you do all this while planning your wedding <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't know. When we lived together it was with the understanding we would be together for life if it was "living together forever" or marriage forever. So, for us, it was a committment.

I have just seen too many people on this board who married before getting to know the partner first. Then, they find out they are incompatable and should not be living together. Had they given the relationship a better test first, they may have avoided the problems that cannot be solved except by drastic personality changes and divorce.

And Smile, you seem to give me credit for following and believing in and spouting off and adhering to the Harley policies.

However, I never knew the Harley concepts when I lived together with my boyfriend, now husband. You yourself are not currently following his policies in living together.

I agree with many of his concepts. But not all of them. And they do not apply the same to all people. And though I am not against Harley policies, I am not bound to quote them and repeat them in order to post on these boards.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have just seen too many people on this board who married before getting to know the partner first. Then, they find out they are incompatable and should not be living together. Had they given the relationship a better test first, they may have avoided the problems that cannot be solved except by drastic personality changes and divorce.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">baba....this seems SO LOGICAL, but there is real evidence that it isn't a good "test" at all. In fact, statistics show that folks who live together are LESS likely to end up happily married. To find out why...read that Harley excerpt I quoted and go look at the links a put in place for baby.

Here's a sample:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3 Reasons Why Researchers Say Living Together Before Marriage is Risky

This article is based on information from The National Marriage Project at Rutgers University, and is part of the Relationships Debate "Should you live together before marriage?"

Some call it living in sin, others call it living in bliss, but these days it's almost expected that a couple will live together before tying the knot. Only 40 short years ago, this wasn't the case. According to the U.S. Census, less than 500,000 unmarried couples were "shacking up" in 1960. (In fact, it was actually illegal in many states at the
time.) But by 2000, cohabitation had lost its outlaw status -- and nine times as many people were doing it.

What's behind this sweeping social change? "I would never commit to spending my life with a man without living with him first," explains iVillage member lucy4980. "You get to know a person's private face this way, rather than the public face that he presents to the world." Besides testing the waters, other couples say the benefits include sharing expenses and the reassuring thought that breaking up is easier than getting divorced.

But despite the rise in cohabitation and its growing acceptability in our society, studies show that living together before marriage holds risks to the longevity and stability of the relationship, and to the happiness and welfare of those in it. Read on to find out what two researchers at the Rutgers University Marriage Project found when they put all the facts together, then decide for yourself.

3 Warnings: Living Together Might Not Be Smart

1. Higher Divorce Rate
Perhaps the most compelling and widespread argument against living together before marriage is that several researchers say it increases the risk of breaking up. Virtually all studies of this topic have shown that the chance of divorce is significantly greater for married couples who lived together first. And in 1992, the National Survey of Families and Households found that, in 3,300 families, married couples who had lived together first were judged to be 46 percent more likely to get divorced.

2. Lower Quality of Life
When it comes to living together, more research suggests that the quality of life for unmarried couples is far lower than for married couples. Researchers David Popenoe and Barbara Dafoe Whitehead say cohabiting couples report lower levels of happiness, lower levels of sexual exclusivity and sexual satisfaction, and poorer relationships with their parents. Annual rates of depression are more than three times higher. And, finally, cohabiting women are more likely than married women to suffer physical and sexual abuse.

3. Living Together Doesn't Necessarily Lead to Marriage
After five to seven years, 21 percent of most cohabitating couples are still doing just that -- cohabitating, without getting married. In a new study by Popenoe and Whitehead, one of the top 10 reasons why men said that they are reluctant to get married at all is because they can simply live with a woman -- and enjoy the same benefits.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I can agree with those statistics if you are talking about YOUNG people. I was 44 when I lived with him. So I probably do not fit those stats. I am so strange (not wanting babies, accumulating large real estate holdings, etc) That I probably fit NO stereotype at all.

I agree it would have been a mistake for me to live with someone at age 21 to age 26. Too young! Too limiting! Too bad!

Lots of long posts here. Mine will be short.

I was "in love" at 21. I am divorced at 37. We were both college educated people and had 2 children in our 11 years.

You will change, mature, so much in several more years. Date, have friends, if you chosse to have sex have safe sex, don't tie yourself down too much. Please wait, live and have fun now, divorce is very painful. Enjoy life now and experience as many people as you can.

baba.....I have no doubt...you're one of kind!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with many of his concepts. But not all of them. And they do not apply the same to all people. And though I am not against Harley policies, I am not bound to quote them and repeat them in order to post on these boards. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa...I wasn't trying to attack you, Baba. I was simply discussing what you said in terms of the Harley principles. You're right, I don't agree with all of his principles, either, and often argue against them even on these boards so I'd have to be a horrible hypocrite to condemn you for a similar thing. I'm sorry I came across that way.

And TR, I understand completely that the things I stated were my beliefs and not reality. I would hope engagement was more about preparing for the wedding...after two people know they are ready for marriage. That's not at all how it is. I also think people rush into marriage far too often and so that is why I think the engagement should be utilized differently. These are just my opinions and observations. I've got Star to provide all the references <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Smile

I think 75% or 80% of the posts regarding marital problems on MB could be traced back to marrying the wrong person. Here are some reasons marriages like this could happen:

1. They are in love and do not see they have incompatable personalities

2. They are young and have dated very little so they cannot know who they are compatable with yet.

3. Low self esteem leads them to marry "anybody" without considering if this is the right person for them...

4. They marry someone with addictions and did not see it coming

5. They marry too fast

6. They marry for the wrong reasons

7. They want the "Big white wedding"...and "The Diamond Ring".

8. They want children and a meal ticket to support them, not a happy marriage partner.

9. They do not want to develop their own life but rather want to be married to "somebody" and be "taken care of".

10. They want to plop out several kids and be allowed to do this and be taken care of for the rest of their lives.

11. All their friends are married and so they marry too.

12. They like the looks or social status of the marriage partner.

13. They are totally incompatable and cannot communicate but the sex is good at first so they marry.

14. They confuse sex with love.

15. They are virgins and marry in order to be able to have sex.

16. They want to move away from home

17. They are young and do not know what they want yet out of life.

18. They are dysfunctional or they marry a partner who is dysfunctional and a good marriage is not possible.

19. They want a "mother" or "father" figure not a husband or wife.

20. They have a strange and unrealistic concept of what marriage is and is'nt.

21. They have trouble observing and judging other people.

22. They accidently marry a mentally ill partner and then feel like they have to stick with them.

23. They marry a liar, a cheater, a person with no morals or a user of people. But they did not recognize this at first meeting or before marriage.

24. They marry a very selfish person and then they have to constantly give and give with nothing in return.

25. They have no boundaries and marry an abuser.

26. They have not enough boundaries yet to conduct a good marriage yet they marry anyway.

27. They marry and create children while themselves truly needing intensive counseling for past abuse...


There are many other reasons people marry the wrong person.

ANYTHING that teaches you about people and relationships(without damaging consequences or limiting you) is a good thing.

Just so you do not make the mistake of marrying the wrong person.

<small>[ January 06, 2004, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Thanks Mom <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Love ya!

I like your list, Baba.
I think you've made some really good points.
Blaming cohabitation for marital problems may just be a good cop out in many ways, but with the extremely high marital failure rate, anything that improves one's chances should be considered.
But, to blame cohabitation for the failure when anything from your list can be blamed is silly. And I imagine the items from your list are far more common (with or without cohabitation) than issues that developed just because a couple lived together before marriage.

It's probably true that young couples who choose to cohabitate are messing up on at least one of your points. I'd be much more likely to blame youth or lack of communication for a failed marriage, with or without cohabitation, than not growing from a rental agreement to a full on committment after living together.

Smile

baba...yeah that list is accurate...but you forgot to add this phrase onto the end of each of those statements "and they lived together FIRST" (because for some reason....it makes a huge difference.) Statistics don't lie....there is a difinitive, measurable, correlation between living together before marriage and divorce. Explain that. Everything you mentioned can be the cause of a failed marriage....but for some reason and we are trying to examine why....living together first raises the risk of divorce even taking those things into account. What does that mean?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The report, prepared by CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics, focuses not only on individual factors but also community conditions associated with long-term marriages as well as divorce and separation. Based on interviews with nearly 11,000 women 15-44 years of age, the study also examines conditions associated with cohabitation, including the impact that pre-marital cohabitation has on marriage and marital stability.

"We've expanded our analysis beyond the basic 'bookends' of marriage and divorce to look more closely at how the issue of cohabitation impacts the life of a relationship," said Dr. Ed Sondik, Director of CDC's National Center for Health Statistics. "At the same time, we've also attempted to look beyond the influence of individual characteristics and are looking more at the characteristics of the community at large to get a comprehensive picture of what factors impact marriage and divorce rates in this country."

Among the findings in the report: unmarried cohabitations overall are less stable than marriages. The probability of a first marriage ending in separation or divorce within 5 years is 20 percent, but the probability of a premarital cohabitation breaking up within 5 years is 49 percent. After 10 years, the probability of a first marriage ending is 33 percent, compared with 62 percent for cohabitations.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And another:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not surprisingly, young adults strongly favor cohabitation. But a careful review of the available social science evidence suggests that living together is not a good way to prepare for marriage or to avoid divorce. What's more, it shows that the rise in cohabitation is not a positive family trend. Cohabiting unions tend to weaken the institution of marriage and pose clear dangers for women and children.

Specifically, the research indicates that:

*Living together before marriage increases the risk of divorce. One study found an increased risk of 46%.
* Living together outside marriage increases the risk of domestic violence for women and the risk of physical and sexual abuse for children. One study found that the risk of domestic violence for women in cohabiting relationships was double that in married relationships; the risk is even greater for child abuse.
*Unmarried couples have lower levels of happiness and well-being than married couples.

We recognize the larger social and cultural trends that make cohabiting relationships attractive to many young adults today. Unmarried cohabitation is not likely to go away. Given this reality, we offer four principles consistent with the available evidence that may help guide the thinking of pre-marrieds on the question "Should we live together?"

1) Consider not living together at all before marriage. There is no evidence that if you decide to cohabit before marriage you will have a stronger marriage than those who don't live together, and there is some evidence to suggest that if you live together before marriage, you are more likely to divorce.

2) Don't make a habit of cohabiting. Multiple cohabiting is a strong predictor of the failure of future relationships.

3) Limit cohabitation to the shortest possible period of time. The longer you live together with a partner, the more likely it is that the low-commitment ethic of cohabitation will take hold, the opposite of what is required for a successful marriage.

4) Do not cohabit if children are involved. Children need and should have parents who are committed to staying together.


</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">baba...lots of things can and do contribute to divorce....but apparently when the partners in a marriage have NOT lived together FIRST they are statistically better at dealing with them. I think there are some good reasons why....and that you aren't addressing that. This isn't my opinion...it's a matter of research.

<small>[ January 06, 2004, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

And this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Another interesting study was conducted by Hall and Zhao (Cohabitation and Divorce in Canada, Journal of Marriage and the Family, May 1995: 421-427). They write,


The popular belief that cohabitation is an effective strategy in a high-divorce society rests on the common-sense notion that getting to know one another before marrying should improve the quality and stability of marriage. However, in this instance, it is looking more and more as if common sense is a poor guide.
Their study showed that cohabitation itself was shown to account for a higher divorce rate, rather than factors that might have led to cohabitation, such as parental divorce, age at marriage, stepchildren, religion, and other factors. In other words, other factors being equal, you are much more likely to divorce if you live together first.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3) Limit cohabitation to the shortest possible period of time. The longer you live together with a partner, the more likely it is that the low-commitment ethic of cohabitation will take hold, the opposite of what is required for a successful marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Star, this seemed to be the only part of your last two posts that really hit on the relationship between cohabitating before marriage as opposed to arguing the benefits of marriage vs. cohabitation. I found the following article helpful in diving a little deeper in to the reasoning behind the stats you are finding. It's a little more analytical...of course, I wasn't able to read the entire articles that you found.

http://www.rmfc.org/fs/fs0064.html
"In an article in Family Therapy, sociologists at Northern State University uncovered in their study of college students that cohabitation puts women in a perilous position, often at the mercy of men who regard rape with a disturbing indifference. The study also found that those who are most likely to cohabit indicate "Lower levels of religiosity, more liberal attitudes toward sexual behavior, less traditional views of marriage, and less traditional views of sex roles." All of these findings were expected and unsurprising. What the authors of the study did not expect to find, however, was that "those males who had cohabited displayed the most accepting views of rape." Previous studies have found that men typically cohabit because of the "convenience" of the relationship, whereas women cohabit with "the expectation that cohabitation will lead to marriage"-- thus creating a relationship in which men are likely to "hold a position of power" over women who expect much more from the relationship than they do. No wonder that "cohabiting couples report greater tension in the relationship" than do married couples. 4

In a recent study published in the Journal of Social and Personal Relationships, researchers found that only 30 percent of the sample cohabiting couples ultimately married, casting doubt on the value of so-called "trial marriages." The study also showed that those couples who had cohabited before marriage were more likely to have led lives marked by promiscuity than couples who had never cohabited. Cohabitors broke with tradition in other ways, too. Husbands who had cohabited before wedlock were less likely to be employed full time and more likely to have "lower occupational status" than their counterparts who had not cohabited before marriage. Also, wives who had cohabited were more likely to be employed full time than their counterparts who had not. This pattern of employment may explain why married couples who had first cohabited report "less traditional division of domestic labor," with husbands performing more "feminine chores" and wives performing more "masculine chores," than couples who had not cohabited. The Journal of Social and Personal Relationships article also agreed with earlier findings that couples who have cohabited are more likely to divorce than married couples who have never cohabited. 5 "

Something I noticed about this is that it really seems to focus a lot on the TYPE of person who would choose to cohabitate. I think that's important. None of the stats we have seen really get into any kind of detail with regard to the actual subjects. I think we'd need to know more about individual cases to notice trends in personalities...that's significant. For all we know, the same % of people who divorce after cohabitation are people who tend to have issues with committment. Just like many people have addictive personalities, a certain personality type could explain a lot about the failure rate of cohabitating couples. I'd be very interested to see a study which conducts the Myers-Briggs on couples who cohabitate, couples who marry without cohabitation, and couples who cohabitate and then marry. And then of course separate all of this into "failed" vs. "successful" marriages.

Smile

<small>[ January 06, 2004, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

Hi. I just thought I would give you my two cents worth of experience. I moved in with a man when I was 20. He was a nice person, let me quit my fast food job so I could concentrate on my education, and he bought me all new clothes and even a car. This lasted about 3 months, and then he beat the heck out of me one day. I pressed charges, he spent time in jail and I was granted a 5 year restraining order against him.

I was left with 9 months left on our lease ($800 a month) with no way out. I had a $3000 credit card bill for furniture we had bought together under my name. I had no job. I had to drop out of college, get a full time job and find a car to drive, as he took the one he bought me.

The worst part for me was not being able to turn the heat on in the winter because I couldn't afford to pay it. I would take like 3 hour bathes at night just to stay warm, then wrap up in like 6 flannel blankets to sleep at night. I got a job as a manager at McDonalds which was my only way to eat. I bought a car too. College was out of the question. It still haunts me to this day, though I am back in school working on my degree part time.

My savior came about 4 months before my lease was up. The guy was 17, I was 20. I went on one date with him and knew we would get married. His mom helped me with my rent and let me move into her house when my lease was up. I was able to pay off all of my bills and this new man and I got an apartment when he turned 18.

He is now 22 and I am 25. We have been married for two years. Not everybody has bad luck with living with a man, but I did. It is really scary to have somebody that is nice turn on you. I had no clue that this man could be abusive. I was lucky to get out.

Two Years,

Thank you for sharing your story. You have shown incredible strength and resiliency, and I'm so glad that you've met someone who can treat you as you deserve to be. And I'm thrilled you're back in school! Baby starfish is my daughter. I own the very nice townhouse she (and her brother) live in. They are both enrolled in the same college and the place is pretty big. Her boyfriend has more or less moved in there. I adore him, and I think there is a good chance that somewhere down the road, they will marry.....but I want them to wait on living together until then, because that kind of "renters" mentality is not a good prerequisite for marriage. As the owner of the residence....I could just kick him out...but I think it's far more important that they make this decision on their own and feel good about it.

Sometimes we make mistakes, but some are certainly easier to recuperate from than others. What I wanted to say was simply this:

I am 34 and have made a lot of wrong turns. ALWAYS, in retrospect, I knew it when I was doing it. If it was a really little thing like should I order the $50.00 breast enhancement cream?- no harm done really (just out 50 bucks). The big decisions though really do affect you for a lifetime and many times you can hide under the umbrella of "it won't happen to me," but what if it does.

With the BIG decisions, I have finally learned to trust my intincts. If it nags me enough to ask to questions then maybe it's not the right choice for me- no matter what anyone says.

I did live with my husband before we were married (for the same reasons as you). I wish we hadn't. Honestly, I think it stunted our growth together as a married couple. We did really well living together and continued to "play house" after we were married. For us, I don't think when we actually married that our union was as profound. I mean in a way we were already doing all the marrried stuff living together, marriage just made it legal. And because we were already living together, there wasn't really a transition from singleness to married.

Now, 9 years, beautiful daughter, a few affairs, and a complete overhaul of our relationship (this past year and a half) I'd say that we are finally ready to be married.

Some of the most profound changes that I have made to get through our bad times is to conclude that I don't alwayss know what I'm doing and neither do a lot of other people in this world. When I have started to just trust that what the Bible says, I never go wrong, it's not always fun & I don't always understand it, but eventually it becomes worth it.

No matter what decision you make, I wish you all the best. You remind me a lot of me, very bright with a twist of stubborn <- I mean that in a nice way.

Here's reason why living together ( especially under the circumstances of which you are living) is not a trial of compatibility.

Your condo is "paid for" you say. Marriages rarely come with a "paid for" roof over your head. This is great for him, not only does he get you and the sex and other benefits that come with you Babyfish, he gets a "free" roof over his head. Boy, what a deal that is! Not having to pay for your own living space sure relieves a lot of stress and pressure. A couple could go quite a long time without much stress or pressure when ones parents are footing the bill for the largest expense of living. This arrangement is not real, it is "playing" house. It doesn't teach you much or require you to sacrifice much for the one you are living with.

If you are really interested in finding out about your compatibility you would be much better off paying your own way and he contibuting what is truly "half", not only what is "half" after the benefits that come along with living with a young woman who is self admittedly a "spoiled brat". Spoiled brats don't make good marriage material as marriage is a continual stream of sacrifice and dying to one another. This arrangement you have affords you no opportunity to experience what a marriage would be like. Living together like this is simply "playing", allows for easily satisfying physical needs, and reduces your opportunities for building strong character. Simply it's easy and it's not the easy things that test who we really are, it is the hard things. Marriage, under the BEST of circumstances is hard.

It's harder to live seperate but it teaches you much and builds much, because it takes more effort and work. We usually value most the things we had to work real hard to get. Don't be easy for him, let him work for you dear. He will value you and treasure you much more and if he doesn't, he's not worth keeping.

A little something about God now. Babyfish, you know how much your mom and dad love you and want good things for you? Well God, as your loving heavenly Father wants all that magnified a thousand fold for your life. He's got a plan for your life grander than anything you or I could imagine. How do we "get" that life that's better than any plan we can dream up ourselves? It's by been obedient and faithful to His Word and guidelines for our life. It's a simple for us as it was for Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. Simple but not easy, for their is a grand liar that tries continually to slip us up by believing his lies. He lied to Eve. The first ? in the bible is the serpent asking Eve, "Hath not God said?" His lying slimy self got her to question God's instruction to her regarding how she could live forever in that wonderful garden..."Don't eat from this one tree". The devil got her to question God and his instruction and enticed her to think that she, in her will and plan, could have something just as great as what God had given and planned for her. Like most of us humans she believed his lie and indulged her own will and plan. Not too pretty what happened after that.

First and foremost the devil is a liar. To be the recipient of the incredible life, full of joy, that your Father has planned for you ,you first must be obedient. It seems when we're young that that means giving up so much. It's often not until we are older and have indulged ourselves in our own "plans" that we discover that our own way hasn't served us well or brought us the joy we had hoped for. That living together is a good, practical thing to do and gives us a chance to get to know a partner without all the entaglements of marriage, is just another "lie" the enemy tells us. If it wasn't, the statistics on successful marriage after living together would show us just what we, in our own understanding, would expect, that living togehter increases your chances for a long, happy marital union. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Most certainly we can chose to believe that "our" way is best for "us", again unfortunately that is most certainly not the case, for our Father in heaven knows us and our needs even better than we do. We simply must learn to trust in Him and His ways. I'd encourage you to reflect on that and consider how much better His way just might be in the long run.All the best to you!

<small>[ January 16, 2004, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

There is also a notable statistical increase in domestic violence in marriages where the couple lived together prior to marriage as compared to those who have not.

My marriage had this problem, although it is thankfully now solved.

Other issues are that you develop habits living together, and many of these habits (as you are technically single) are independent behaviors and of not having too many expectations from your partner. These habits serve you very poorly after marriage.

There is a big difference between living together, even in a very committed relationship, and in being married. My H and I lived together for almost 2 years before we married. None of it prepared me for marriage, and we actually developed habits that set us up for marital difficulties.

Just my experiences.

Just wanted to share my .02 cents.


My husband and I have been married for 7 months. We dated for approximately one and a half years before we decided to move in together. Shortly after we started dating, we knew we would marry...eventually. Although the logical finanacial considerations contributed to the decision to move in together, I can't really say it was the driving force behind the decision. We wanted to be together...all the time. We enjoyed spending time together, enjoyed cooking meals together, cleaning up together, falling asleep with each other and waking up together. Some might call it playing house, but we both knew we would eventually marry...when we were ready. And five years later...we were ready. I can't say that my expectations towards the level of committment are any different than they were before the marriage....they were always high, for both of us. We faced many challenges together in the 6.5 years before marriage. Marriage does feel different than living together. For me, there's a heightened sense of safety, security and peace. And I can't imagine making such a huge decison (decision to marry) without being well informed in all aspects about the person I chose for a life-long partner. To date, I don't have any regrets that living together before marriage was the right decision. In fact, I believe our 5 years of "living in sin" was an essential element in learning about each other and helping us both to make an informed decision.

According to the statistics...perhaps we are doomed, but, I think not. I'm hopeful and taking measures to ensure we don't become a statistic.

Jill, my experiance of living together was the same as yours. Except we only lived together about 1.5 years. But it was so good.

I asked him last night if he was glad we lived together and he said he was. In fact we both agree that we HAD to take that interim step before marriage.

Marriage just made me feel prouder and more secure feeling. Because we made our love "legal". Because it was so strong and real and we were so compatable.

hi baby star
im 20 too, and live with my fiance, to whom i am getting married in july.

interestingly, here on MB, i have found many ppl who strongly object to being engaged at my age. i dont know why this is, as everyone in my circle of family and friends are ecstatic about our marriage, and noone has told us we are too young. This may be because they know us individually and as a couple, and know we are both intelligent people who are very much in love and have thought very hard about the decisions we have made.

In my opinion, living together before marriage, (despite the scary statistics, which could be down to another factor which has been overlooked) is a very wise decision. Because surely, you cant truly know someone until you have lived together and spent that amount of time together? Why would you marry someone without having found out whether the emotional and sexual spark vanishes at the mere mention of utility bills and rubber gloves?

Do what feels right for you, babystar. I know for a fact that my fiance is a wonderful, caring, attractive man who i have a lot of fun with, and i wont be throwing that away for a string of no-hopers.

Good luck xxx

<small>[ January 31, 2004, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: ks2001 ]</small>

Well, I'm coming at this frm the perspective of one of those who is victim to the statistics.

In other words, my STBX and I did live together for almost a year before we got married. He said we would never have gotten married if we hadn't lived together first, because he's always felt that way - that you have to live with someone to know them well enough to marry them.

Me - no excuses, I did it, but I was uncomfortable with it the whole time. It went against what I believed. But I consoled myself with the "well, we plan to be married anyway, so God will understand."

And I'm not even taking the tack here of claiming that God caused our marriage to fail because we lived together - on the contrary, I do believe that no matter how the relationship starts out, once you are married, God wants that marriage to succeed, and will bless it if the two people in it are really trying.

But.... (and you knew that one had to be coming, didn't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) One of the things that I now see was a problem was my STBX's view of marriage and relationships in general. He did personals without my knowledge for years. He had, I believe, at least two affairs, and possibly more. And ultimately, he walked out on me and went to live with his mistress. He claimed he wanted to come home, and I said ok, but not immediately - that we had to work on things, and he could come home when I felt it was "safe," that I wouldn't be living through this all over again, and that it would probably take a year. He agreed, and then proceeded to go to counseling with me for almost 3 months, until I discovered he had never really quit living with her. He never did admit to me that he was living with her, but I had it from enough other sources, including his mother, that I knew it was true. And he didn't admit it, he just quit denying it.

Anyway, why do I think all this was affected or influenced by living together first, instead of it just being another case of a man cheating on his wife? Well, I don't know that I would say that living together affected our marriage, but I do think that living together reflected values (at least for him) that should have been a warning sign of things to come. I don't completely excuse myself here either, believe me, but I can at least say that I was uncomfortable with it, and had it been up to me, we would have been married before we lived together. But I still needed some adjustments on my views of s*x before marriage too.

But for him... well, not too long ago, I told him I didn't understand how he could do this to me, and how he could consider it all right, and himself to still be a Christian, when he is living and sleeping with someone other than his wife. His answer? "Well, we lived and slept together when we weren't married." He really sees no difference between two unmarried people choosing to live together before they get married, and abandoning your wife to live with another woman.

And in all fairness to him, doesn't it start getting to a point where you are just talking small degrees of difference? It's a small step from living together before marriage to living with someone other than your wife (or husband.) And it was a small step from sleeping together before we were married to living together before we were married.

I have just recently begun to realize how very much s*x changes the relationship, and how, without that bond of marriage being there first, it can cause a gulf between the two people that may never again be spanned.

Which is something God has tried to tell us all along in the bible. If we just listened, you know?

And I know - there are going to be a lot of people out there that disagree with me - or that, even if they agree with me about not living together, are going to disagree about pre-marital s*x. And I'm not saying it's easy. It's been a long time for me now, and I know I'm feeling it. I miss it a lot.

But I think I have begun to see that if I don't want to make the same mistakes that ultimately led to my divorce, if I want to find someone who values marriage as much as I do, I'm going to have to act like I value marriage that much.

Here is my take on the whole living together before marriage thing...

My first marriage, I was 20. I kinda lived with my ex. He stayed at my parents' home (we didn't sleep in the same room). We got married, had 3 kids, he was extremely abusive and now we've been divorced for 3 yrs.

My new husband and I lived together for 3 months and then got married. We've now been married for almost 2 years. Things are so much better than in my first marriage.

For us, living together was right. We knew that we were getting married soon and it seemed senseless for him to pay rent when he never stayed at his apartment anyway. And, yes, he definately paid his way here. We split on groceries and all the other bills. The money became ours. We've become a happily blended family with 5 sons (my 3 and his 2). And we are very determined not to become statistics.

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />