Cndy,<br>I was half kidding when I wrote that. I dident mean to make ya feel bad, Just a bad attempt at humor on a bad day. I have told you both before that I do anything she asks of me and I also offer help when she seems she needs it. Mostly taking the boys for a couple hours so she can do whatever or taking them over night a couple extra nights when she she seems stressed. She has been complanining about how stressed out the kids make her and how hard it is to control our youngest son who has add/adhd. She calls sometime crying she cant take it. So I tell her to calm down that I'll watch the boys some extra so she has some time for herself. I do help her around her apt when she needs it. The part that gives me a hard time with her is that she tells me she cant take the stress anymore but never thinks about returning as a option. I know her life is a lot easier if she was home but shes roughing it out and thats why I get negetive feelings about us. Maybe I should just tell her that she made her bed now she has to sleep in it. Thats what I want to say a lot of times. Maybe I should just stop taking my time alone to make her fell better by taking the boys. Who knows, I'd cut off an arm to have her back and maybe thats the problem. I'm doing too much for her and making it easy. I keep getting conflicting advice on this decision. Some say do it all for her and others say do nothing and let her suffer the conscuences of her decision. It going on 14 months of tourcher and at times I feel I cant go on. I really appreciate you ladies taking the time to post with your thoughts and insight of the womans mind :-) it helps a lot to hear from you all that you think my wife still loves me because when your the one thats in it you dont see it. i know I can give advice but its hard to take even your own advice. Thanks a bunch, GOD Bless tou all.<br> Ken

thats a tough one - to leave her alone and not be so convenient to her needs or to be there. I definitely feel that your kids shouldn't pay the price - so for THEM; I would be there. I'd take all the opportunities to have them and be with them. And maybe you are being to EASY for her and its making it easier for her not to really MISS you and all the things you do for her. Maybe her way of thinking is that if she can still have your support, your listening, etc., why return? She has the best of both worlds - her freedom; and you when she needs it. Maybe you should not be so convenient to HER needs (phone calls when shes stressed, etc) and just for the kids. Maybe that will bring her to see how HARD it really is living without you? It could really work.

Ken,<br>I have been reading thru you dilemma and perhaps a fresh approach is what you need. I have had some very good advise from a counselor from my past. She has always suggested to me,"go on about your business". I your situation that would mean go on for the time being, give this whole situation a rest, work on who you are and what you would be without her is that would be the case. (not saying it would be but just in case). You see when we move on in our own world, and not meaning hurry out to find someone else, that is not the answer now, just moving on about our business, work, socialize with friends, go bowling or to the movies with a guy friend, buy a new shirt, whatever. Just getting on with business makes us more appealing and interesting. Then give it a few weeks and perhaps call her to see if she has decided what she wants in life because YOU are not interested in being on hold forever. YOUR life is too important. I most usually consider the direct approach. It is what I would want for me......Good Luck!<br>didi

Well I broke last night I cant stand feeling like this anymore. She had left a friendly message on my phone about the kids and thanking me for watching the kids and to call if I wanted. I called and asked why she left a message and dident just call me at work which hurt me. I asked her straight up if she had any change in feelings towards me and she replied no. I asked if there was any chance of getting back and she said no, I dont love you, I can just be friendly ant I thought you were past this and over it. I told her I think about her every day and its ripping my heart out. I told her my youngest son told me that the reason he is allways angry is because we are apart and wants us to be a family. I asked if not for me but for the kids could she think about giving it a chance. She replied no that she allready stayed long enough for the kids and now shes doing what she feels like doing. I asked if we could go out as friends and she said no I dont want to. By this time I was crying and hurting badly and I told her she was being selfish, celfcentered and destroying the family. She said oh yea blame it all on me, make me feel guilty. I said no more favors no more nothing that I had to take care of myself and move on that she would now have to deal with the consequenses of her decisions. She told me I knew you were being nice just to get me back and if I wanted to get nasty so could she. Told me she would see a lawer to have me take the kids more often, I just replied you cant force me to do anything. Well I think thats when the call ended. I hung up got the divorce papers, wrote the check and put it in the mail this morning. I called her back to apoligize for calling her selfish and explained it was out of anger and I dident really mean it. She was crying and told me she called her mom because I had hurt her. She then said that no one can hurt me like you, friends or enimies and I replied it was because she still loved me and she dident even know it, that if you dident love me you wouldent even care what I said. I told her to please stop running from her problems and see some one. No answer then replied I should see some one because I should be over it by now and I agreed I should be over it. I know that God will not open another door untill the other one is closed so I'm going thru with the divorce for my own sanity. She made it clear that she does not want me and asked why do I keep asking I said because you tell me that you dont know if theres a chance in the future and that you dont say never. She replied OK then Never. Any comments?<br>Ken

Ken,<p>I am sorry to hear that you had to go through that. One thing I have learned is that the other person may never see what is right in front of their face. Or if they do see it, it may be too late. I think you have done everything you can. You have given her time, and plenty of chances. I would do what is best for you now (and your boys). Make yourself happy do you can help your boys deal with this. Move on and find happiness and peace because you deserve it. My thoughts and prayer are with you and your boys. Choose to be happy, choose to go on, choose to love again.<p>Steph

My comments are that "I'm sorry" for you - and I pray for your strength to get you thru this. You did the only thing that was left for you to do now. I truly believe that the reason she said "okay, never" - was because she feels too, that some doors need to be closed before others open (whether with you, someone else?) but, that everyone is hanging on threads here. OR, she sounded very upset that you stood up to her about giving her so much time and taking the kids, etc and I think it could have possibly made her very angry and she was just sounding off to you. She is angry and hurt now too. Regardless of what happens, endings are NOT happy occassions. Even if you are the one proposing the relationship to end. She cannot truly be happy and sounds angry and hurt. <br>I think you both need to take some time to let the steam blow over. Try to relax and do some soul searching for YOU. Now is that time to focus on YOU and YOUR needs. Its too early in this to see what the future will hold. Speaking from experience, me and my ex have been divorced 9 years now and I could probably say that the first 3 years were TOUGH - the tears, arguing, crying, disagreeing, fighting - and from then on it started changing. I can say that now we are rebuilding a FRIENDSHIP and actually enjoy each others company. Some things just take time to pass. <br>I wish you all the strength and courage to find yourself thru all this. Stay very close to your kids, they will need you now more than ever and just be you! I know you feel as this is the end of the world - but you WILL wake up one day and realize that you are on the road to recovery! I'm praying for you.

All, <p>I just read what happened with KenS and his wife. I really hate it. I have a question.<br>Ken told his wife she is destroying the family.<br>In my own case I have said to my wife, when I thought she was on the verge of leaving, how can you just walk out on a family and destroy it when you have someone who wants to work things out?<br>Can any of you women explain how a woman can do that? I know that men destroy families also, but I just see so many cases where the woman simply decides to leave in spite of the fact that she hasn't tried to fix anything.<br>To me it seems she is being cold hearted in an almost evil sort of way. But I'm sure she isn't seeing it that way.<br>But no matter how hard I try, no matter what angle I view it from, I just cannot fathom how she could walk out, knowing how important it is for kids to have two parents together, without trying to see if it can be worked out.<br>I could understand if there was abuse involved or the husband wasn't interested in changing himself. But when he will do anything to change short of slitting his wrists and is willing to accomodate her any way he can, WHY won't she even consider making moves toward restoration? I know this canot be a cookie cutter answer because women have different personalities. But I see this common denominator too much. I just can't understand it. Can any woman shed some light on this for me. I feel that if I understand it better I might not get so angry when my wife seems to tilt in this direction.

All, <p>I just read what happened with KenS and his wife. I really hate it. I have a question.<br>Ken told his wife she is destroying the family.<br>In my own case I have said to my wife, when I thought she was on the verge of leaving, how can you just walk out on a family and destroy it when you have someone who wants to work things out?<br>Can any of you women explain how a woman can do that? I know that men destroy families also, but I just see so many cases where the woman simply decides to leave in spite of the fact that she hasn't tried to fix anything.<br>To me it seems she is being cold hearted in an almost evil sort of way. But I'm sure she isn't seeing it that way.<br>But no matter how hard I try, no matter what angle I view it from, I just cannot fathom how she could walk out, knowing how important it is for kids to have two parents together, without trying to see if it can be worked out.<br>I could understand if there was abuse involved or the husband wasn't interested in changing himself. But when he will do anything to change short of slitting his wrists and is willing to accomodate her any way he can, WHY won't she even consider making moves toward restoration? I know this cannot be a cookie cutter answer because women have different personalities. But I see this common denominator too much. I just can't understand it. Can any woman shed some light on this for me. I feel that if I understand it better I might not get so angry when my wife seems to tilt in this direction.

All, <p>I just read what happened with KenS and his wife. I really hate it. I have a question.<br>Ken told his wife she is destroying the family.<br>In my own case I have said to my wife, when I thought she was on the verge of leaving, how can you just walk out on a family and destroy it when you have someone who wants to work things out?<br>Can any of you women explain how a woman can do that? I know that men destroy families also, but I just see so many cases where the woman simply decides to leave in spite of the fact that she hasn't tried to fix anything.<br>To me it seems she is being cold hearted in an almost evil sort of way. But I'm sure she isn't seeing it that way.<br>But no matter how hard I try, no matter what angle I view it from, I just cannot fathom how she could walk out, knowing how important it is for kids to have two parents together, without trying to see if it can be worked out.<br>I could understand if there was abuse involved or the husband wasn't interested in changing himself. But when he will do anything to change short of slitting his wrists and is willing to accomodate her any way he can, WHY won't she even consider making moves toward restoration? I know this cannot be a cookie cutter answer because women have different personalities. But I see this common denominator too much. I just can't understand it. Can any woman shed some light on this for me? I feel that if I understand it better I might not get so angry when my wife seems to tilt in this direction.

Being a woman (and one that is working on her marriage also) I don't see how ANYONE (male or female) in cases like you described without abuse can WALK out when their partner wants to keep the family together. BUT speaking from women I know and talking to women, I have had a lot of women tell me (and do this) that they make so many excuses and reasons that they convince their husbands to be the ones to "physically" leave the home because they don't want the guilt on their backs for being the one to leave. Then, they can always say, well he left me and these kids. I've seen that happen so many times and down the road it sounds so convincing to themselves (the woman) to say that HE LEFT (because he did). It makes them feel like THEY didn't walk out on the marriage or the kids. <p>The reasons for not wanting to work it out? Its hard to say. In my case with my ex - I had taken so much of his constant problems (drinking, womanizing, etc) and he wasn't going to change. I knew that. So it was easier for me becuase he was NOT trying and didn't care at the time if he was destroying the family. And its hard for me NOW because as I said after 9 years he HAS changed. (and what a boat to be in for him to want to reconcile with his family and I can't now). See, life is twisted for so many reasons. All I can figure is GOD has control over all of this and there ARE reasons it happens. Maybe to strengthen us, to harden our hearts to be better people who knows? In my case, maybe he wanted to see if I had the strength to sit around for 9 years and HOPE and be COMMITTED that my ex would change. Now I'm remarried and can't commit. So, who knows. It all confuses me too. <br>I just think that she has some things in her heart and mind that she obviously wants to work out and feels strongly that doing it alone and without you is the only way. I pray with my HEART that she sees the light and finds out that you are what she needs before it may be too late for her. <br>Thats all I can offer.

Bruce,<p>I don't think this is a man/woman thing. Some PEOPLE will do anything to keep the marriage together and other PEOPLE will give up at the first sign of trouble. I think it is a matter of personality. Also other things factor into the equation. What kind of relationships have they seen? Did there parents have a good relationship? Do the people around them have good relationships?<p>You mention that your wife goes online and chats quite alot. Also that she talks with these people on the phone. It could be that she has found a support group. Such as you have found here but you have to be sure that they are only hearing her side of it and then giving her advice on how to cope. Even if they are just talking she is getting emotional support from them and not needing or wanting it from you. When things with my H were at there lowest I got alot of support from friends online. One of the things he brought up in counseling was that I would spend more time talking and laughing with them then I did with him. I knew that in order to make this work that I was going to have to cut back. I can not totally stop because I do get support from them but I agreed not to chat if he was home and awake. That way my time was his if he wanted it. For me I would do anything to make this work. I will never file for divorce and will never ask him to leave. But I will not be forced to be different than I am.<p>Your wife is the way she is because of the person she is not because she is a woman. You may never understand her. Just stick to your values and you will be ok, whatever happens in the end.<p>Steph

Bruce,<br> I dident stop at slitting my wrist so to speak I did go out and got as drunk as I could and then took an overdose of sleeping pills back when we first seperated then spent some time in a mental hospital. Thats why I went to AA because I dont have the courage to kill myself while I'm sober.<br>Ladies,<br>Thanks for the words of encouragement, I'm allready second thinking the divorce but its allready in the mail. I feel like its my last chance of sanity and a way of letting go. I pray to God this is what he wants from me. I'm such a bag of mush right now and have tried everything I could to move on and this seems to be the only answer. I'm so scared of whats happining and if I'm doing the right thing. I hope no one has to go thru this, its like I'm being eaten from the inside out. Thanks for being there.<br> Ken

Ken,<br> l am sorry for what you are going through right now. l don't remember all your posts but have read the latest on this thread. l think l am feeling slightly different than the others,but it could be cuz l don't know your whole story. My first reaction to your wifes newfound desire for being alone(and not bending on this yet),is due to her fear of you going back to the old ways-drinking or whatever. l can imagine the fear of being married to an alcoholic,workaholic,abuser,womanizer or whatever the case may be. l am sure that the woman feels she spent so many years putting up with it and trying to fix things that she just got so burnt out and hurt. l know that might be hard to understand when the has truly changed and given up that lifestyle,but you have to understand how hard it is to truly believe the changes will last. You know the old saying a zebra can't change his stripes. Well think about that. Even though this seems like so long to you(13 months l believe) in reality it still isn't proof positive that you wouldn't go back as soon as she accepted you back. Think about what she said during your phone call. Something to the effect that she knew you were being nice just to win her back. l can imagine that was hard to hear,but please TRY to put yourself in her place. l know it makes life very tough on you,but if you want your family to stay in tact you need to show her that even when the going gets rough and she seems unbendable that you will not go back to your old ways. That you truly have changed. In essence, when l read your phone call(and remember that l am also the wronged spouse) l can see how she could have felt backed into a corner and we all know that when that happens the cornered person lashes out to protect themselves. You did state that she left a nice message on your machine. Well, l hate to say that l think you should have taken that at face value and been glad to have received that. it shows to me she really is trying in her own way. Maybe it is just easier for her to talk to the machine than you.She might need lots and lots of baby steps before she can let you all the way back in. l know for me,as much as l want to keep my marriage together,right now it is easier for me to write to my husband rather than talk in person. l just get lost and flustered in person therefore ruining any chance of thinking clearly!(l have ADD too so you might understand me here!LOL!) <br> You also made something that l would have perceived as a threat if my husband said it to me.When she said that she would have the lawyer make you take the kids more,you countered by saying that he can't make you do anything. For one thing,they will always BE your kids too,so why would you say something that could be construed as your taking the kids is doing HER a favor? Aren't you really doing it for your kids? They will need you as much as possible no matter what the outcome of your marriage and you can't threaten things that will make them suffer the consenquences. l realize you didn't do it against them,but was only lashing out at her,but it is still hard for her to hear it and think about it if you ever wrote something like that in an email then one of your kids saw it,how do you think that would make them feel? l keep reading how the kids always blame themselves when parents divorce,but yet parents are always saying they would never do anything to make their kids think that. But don't you see how saying something like that could make an immature child believe it? You also told her that your youngest is angry and wants the family together,so it is her fault, but you have to KNOW that that would make her feel even guiltier.Personally,l am on the side of everyone here who doesn't understand how anyone-man or woman could tear their family apart without even trying(unless abuse was involved),but l also can see that making the person feel even guiltier for leaving them isn't going to do anything for the relationship. l know l have written letters like that asking my husband to answer these philisophical questions,but l know in my heart that he can't and all it has done is built the wall higher up due to the guilt. Perhaps rightfully so,they deserve the guilt,but as l said it doesn't help the situation.<br> Anyway,all in all,l still feel bad for you,but really feel in my heart all is not lost.l know you think you have gone too far by filing,but l think perhaps you can't sit on that awhile longer.Explain to her that you are just in so much pain that sometimes you just can't think straight and say the wrong things. l know how hard this all is....... but if you want to keep your family together,you need to show her just how strong you really are. Go on finding yourself,like the others have said.Preferably not romantically though. Go on enjoying your children.Improve your mind and body and spirit,and thank God for life.Who knows,maybe if you start enjoying it with yourself,then slowly,but surely she may come around. l wish you the best!<br>Ali

It seems in human nature, there are 2 ways to deal with something which is uncomfortable - fight or flight. <br>I know in my case, I fight - no I don't fight with people physically, or verbally, I mean I hang in there, do whatever I can, in whatever way I can. Yea, sometimes it may not be the right way, but I always try.<br>Others feel that flight is the best option - things are too difficult to deal with, or they can't deal with it now, so they flee, run. <br>Is one way better than another - don't know. All I know is what is best for me. I know if I do everything in my power to work through it, then I can feel good about myself.<br>I, also, don't believe it is a male/female issue. Just a part of each individual's makeup. <p>Bruce,<br>Just a thought - I read most all the posts, just haven't been in a very good place to respond often. Maybe the reason flight does work in some instances, is because it breaks the patterns in our relationships which were unhealthy. If you are looking for a different reaction, perhaps you need to change the action. We are creatures of habit, and I know as much as I may try to change, want to change, it is so easy to fall back to what we know. <br>Although your actions may seem perfectly logical and reasonable to you, if they are still illiciting the same response, it's time to change the action. <br>Just as learning in life - a teacher may teach 25 students very well, but can't seem to get through to one - a new teacher may say the same things, be teaching the same things, only this student learns because he hears it put a little differently. <br>Change the acton - get a different reaction. Break the cycle. <br>Just my thoughts<br>Sara

Cndy, Steph<p>Thanks for your replies. I really hated to phrase my question as something the woman does because I know people don't always take that well. I also know that there are men who just walk out and leave families and I don't understand them any more than i do women.<br>But the books I read, and my experience, point to this emotional wall that momen can build. For my part I am very sorry about the years I have neglected important things my wife needed. I didn't realize, because of selfishness, that I was doing some things. But now that I see it I am truly sorry and she knows I am. I know that that doesn't mean I won't suffer consequenses or that just because I'm sorry that I shouldn't suffer them.<br>But for me as a man I'm prone to think why not just put it behind you. But it seems that the emotional makeup of females is such that is isn't that easy. Am I wrong? This is what I was getting at with phrasing it as a "woman" question.<br>I have thought that if I had been treated a certain way that maybe I would have a hard time myself putting it behind me or reacting to the person who hurt me. But then again I don't think I would have kept things inside me anywhere near as long as women seem to hold things inside themselves. Just recently my wife (in a moment of being mad with me) told me there were still some things I'm not doing. My response was that's fine but how can I know if you don't tell me?<br>As it is she kept things inside for years until we are where we are now. The next thing I know i'm looking up like a deer caught in the headlights asking what the hell happened.<br>I want to do what I can but Lord have mercy I tell you that sometimes it just confuses me to where I just sit down in astonishment.<br>Conversations with my sister gave me info on how a woman feels about certain things as opposed to how men feel about them. That info has helped me to view my wife differently and not to get upset because she wasn't seeing it like I do. That is the sort of thing I was looking for with the "woman" question.