<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RWD:<BR><B>Kevin,<BR>I haven't followed your story that closely, but in reading your last few posts, it sounds like you are trying too hard and trying to do things yourself.<P>Hang in,<P>Bob</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hi Bob,<P>Please read it all, see what has happened, what I have had to face up to...<P>You just dont know how I have tried to bend over backwards to show her that I still love her.<P>SHE WILL NOT LET ME GO TO COUNSELLING ANYMORE, I HAVE BEEN TO THREE SESSIONS TO AID ME WITH MY DEPRESSION, NOW SHE JUST GETS MAD IF I EVEN MENTION IT.<P><BR>Like she has been so open with me about everything?<P>Like she has been loving to me and openly discusses everything?<P>Like she has openly told me the truth about everything?<P>Like she willingly just stopped seeing him of her own will so that she could put everything into restoring our marriage?<P>Like she is showing me her cellfone account, instead of hiding it away?<P>Sorry to be so cynical, its just the way I feel at the moment after trying everything I can in the book, telling her constantly how much I love her, buying her flowers, taking her out to dinner, doing the ironing, doing the vacuuming even with a hangover, spending half my day shuttling around on buses to drop off and pick up her car from the AutoGlass shop on Saturday while she was out shopping, then picking her up afterwards, then practically getting ignored the rest of the weekend when looking for some affection.<P>Hey, I have NEVER stopped showing her affection right through it all.......<P>Then getting it thrown in my face on Monday night.<P>Hey, sorry I am also just human and how much must one person take?<P>READ IT ALL BOB!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>Now I am being made to be the baddie...........yeah this feels good.

Kevan, your W's reaction to your going out for a few drinks is typical of someone who wants to focus the attention elsewhere. If she makes an issue of your night out, she doesn't have to look at what's going on with her, does she?<P>I noticed in your post to Bob that your W hides her cell phone bill . . . that's not a good sign. I did exactly the same thing during my A. In fact, I had the bill sent to my office. I think you need to determine if she is still in contact with OM. I also think you should trust your gut instincts - they are rarely wrong.<P>Another thing that troubles me is that you say she won't "let" you go to counseling anymore. Now what is that all about? Kevan, you need to go - whether she accompanies you or not and whether she likes it or not. It's important for you to sort things out in your own mind with the help of an objective third party. Only then will you be clear about what needs to be done to save your marriage.<P>Although you can't control what your W does at this point, you can control what YOU do and how you react. Right now you have to show your W that you are strong. BTW, have you read SAA and HNHN? If you haven't, please get them and READ, READ, READ. My H is currently reading SAA and is gaining some valuable insight into the disastrous situation that I created.<P>I wish there was something more that I could say to you. Just know that I'm here, and so are a lot of other people who can at least listen and understand where you're coming from.<P>{{{{{Hugs}}}}}}<P>

Kevan,<P>I'm not trying to make you out as a baddie. I am trying to help you. To me, it seems like you are trying too hard. I went thru alot of the same things.<P>After discovery, wife and I went to the kids school function. She would not look at me or sit near me, and wouldn't let me touch her. The next nite we went out to dinner and I gave her her space. She then threw it back in my face, saying that I hadn't changed that I still couldn't show her affection.<P>You really have to throw all reason out when dealing with a person in the "fog." You also have to put your needs to the side. For how long, I don't know.<P>Winning your wife back is a long, hard battle, you have to hang in and make a lot of sacrifices.<P>Hang in.<P>Bob

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RWD:<BR><B>Kevan,<P>I'm not trying to make you out as a baddie. I am trying to help you. To me, it seems like you are trying too hard. I went thru alot of the same things.<P>After discovery, wife and I went to the kids school function. She would not look at me or sit near me, and wouldn't let me touch her. The next nite we went out to dinner and I gave her her space. She then threw it back in my face, saying that I hadn't changed that I still couldn't show her affection.<P>You really have to throw all reason out when dealing with a person in the "fog." You also have to put your needs to the side. For how long, I don't know.<P>Winning your wife back is a long, hard battle, you have to hang in and make a lot of sacrifices.<P>Hang in.<P>Bob</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks Bob, I know all you guys are really doing your best to help me and I do appreciate it - I just get so frustrated every now and then and feel I've got to let go of it somehow - so rather I write than I moan or shout.<P>I am not plannng to separate at all right now, but am willing to work this through without that happening because contrary to popular belief I stll love my wife tremendously and my children even more, who have expressed that they do not want us to separate - right now I do feel it will cause them more grief and upset (16 years old and 10 years old) than if we stay and try and work this out.<P>My biggest difficulty is trying to deal with my daily emotions, while my wife is not willing to discuss things or try and see from my point of view what I am feeling and what MY NEEDS are too.<P>A good example - last night my wife phoned me from her cellphone at 6pm (she gets off work at 4:30) she was not home from work yet. She was in a horrible mood and had a bad day at work. She wanted to know if I was on my way home or where. I was on the bus.<BR>When we got home I said to her (not demandingly either, but in a friendly way), "Where did you go after work today, love?"<BR>Straight away she took offense and said "What, are you checking up on me again, cant you just stop this nonsense, do I have to tell you everything I do?"<BR>These days I cannot ask her anything personal, cannot ask her anything about what she is doing or where she is going or has been - then she still expects me to trust her again when she knows I am feeling uneasy.<P>This is tearing me apart.<P>I need some loving too, but it is always me that has to tell her how much I love her, me that asks for a kiss, me that asks for a hug. She tells me she loves me, but has never once in months come up and given me a hug, given me a kiss, voluntarily said I love you. - How the hell am I supposed to feel about this.<BR>I spoke to her this weekend and told her I would also like to feel some intimacy from her - she just said "How do you expect me to do that after EVERYTHING that has happened? You just dont get the picture.<BR>I have mentioned to her once or twice that I am just going to have to move out - to which she has answered, "Oh, thats nice, now you are just going to run away"<BR>But yet when I approach her about what has happened and that I would really like to sort these things out she often says, "I have had enough, why cant you just let it go, I cant live like this anymore, I am going to move out".<P>This feels like the roller-coaster to hell. - Sorry thats just the way I am feeling this week - even with taking the anti-deps.<P>So, she went off to the shop a few minutes ago, she is very very tired, I offered to go for her, but no she insisted, even in the rain. And, guess what she has taken her cellphone with her - makes me feel confident, hey, why would she want to take her cellphone with when the shop is 5 minutes walk next door? Am I supposed to just ignore these actions as if nothing is going on behind my back?<P>Or am I just getting neurotic - someone tell me?<P>I went to the doctor again tonight - had no way of getting home, she had to come pick me up - I could see she was not happy abouut this - anyhow the doctor has increased my anti-dep dosage.<P>Must I still have confidence that she is not sneaking around behind my back, when the cellphone goes everywhere. If I go next door to the shop and pick up my cellphone she asks me what am I taking that to the shop for?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RWD:<BR><B>Kevan,<P>You really have to throw all reason out when dealing with a person in the "fog." You also have to put your needs to the side. For how long, I don't know.<P>Hang in.<P>Bob</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So, I was wrong, she phoned this horrible divorcee girlfriend of hers while she was at the shop (only, that I know of anyhow) although I do not trust that women anyhow as I have said before.<P>How do you put any credibility in a woman that goes to church on weekends and quotes Christianity, then goes to a Fortune-Teller and Tarot-CArd reader to find out what is happening in her life?<P>Anyhow I suppose I am just being over-suspicious?<P>I mentioned to my wife just now, that this depression is a bugger to fight, just when you feeling good, this cloud comes over you and knocks you down flat like you just dont have the energy to do anything. All she could say was "Oh, stop dwelling on it, thats half your problem, you keep on reading about it and dwelling on it, if you just forget about it, it will go away, ..."<P>I said to her that I am just sorry for all the problems that it has caused in our marriage, but I know I am just very fortunate that I still have a lovely family and home and I haven't lost my wife. She didnt even flinch, but just went on reading the newspaper with a look of irritation on her face.<P>

kevan, your story seems very similar to mine. I suffered a lot when I found out my x-wife’s affair. I was 10 months long depressed and lost 8 kg in the first 2 months.<P>I had all your symptoms and she had all f the symptoms of your wife. It was a terrible year.<P>During that year I could not concentrate on anything but I decided to collect all information I could find (mainly Internet Articles) to understand what was going on. This helped me a lot to survive and make the final decision. Unfortunately at that time I did not accessed a forum like this one. The support you get here is really great!<P>You seem to be as lost as I was at that time.<P>To feel depressed is awful and you should try to do something do minimize it. In my opinion, the best and easiest thing you can do is to practice any sport or exercise. You can not imagine how this helps. Everybody knows that when you are depressed you are not stimulated to do anything but you have to force yourself. The results are immediate. In my case I started swimming in the club. It was great. Everyday at lunch time I made a short brake, jumped into the water, swam for some minutes, laid on the sun for another couple of minutes and saw different people. This was really great for me. If you swim or walk, you have some time to do something very pleasant while you are relaxing. As a start, this is what you need.<P>Good luck!!<P>dvpc <BR>

Kevan,<BR>I went thru some of the same things. X went to a counselor who told her it might take 5 yrs to work things out between us. That depressed her. We then went to counsleing together, 3 different ones about 2-3 time to each, and all it did was make her angrier at me. She too said she didn't need anyone to tell her about herself.<P>It is interesting that your w says she doesn't need anyone to tell her things, but she goes to tarot and psychics, that is a contradiction.<P>It sounds like she is very, very confused. This is why you need help from counseling. We can give you advice from what we did right/wrong, but you need professional help. MAke sure it is a pro-marriage counselor otherwise they will tell you to quit.<P>As for your needs, you really have to put them on hold. I know this is difficult, but this is what you have to do. If you complain to your w, that will only drive her away, she will say all you do is think about yourself. Also by concentrating on your needs, you maybe setting yourslef up for an affair if you are confiding in any women about your problems, so you need to be aware of that. It can happen way too fast.<P>As you can see, your w did see your simple question as a lovebuster. You really have to think about what you say. You probably should have just asked how her day went after your conversation.<P>You must make her feel safe around you, currently she isn't feeling that way, and pretty much everything you do is considered a lovebuster.<P>You have to do the best you can acting as if nothing has happened. I know it is hard, but this has to be on her timetable, not yours.<P>You are getting mixed signals, I never got that. My x had pretty much decided to leave. She only showed me anything for about a week. I discovered mid-May and she left July 1 and we were divorced Feb the following year so mine went very fast. You are still hanging in there. She sounds very confused and all you can do is make her feel safe.<P>Hang in.<P>Bob

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RWD:<BR><B>Kevan,<BR>You are still hanging in there. She sounds very confused and all you can do is make her feel safe.<P>Hang in.<P>Bob</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks for the constant reminders - yes, I know I have to just ignore all my suspicions and play along with her...<P>Like five minutes ago - she just phoned on her 'cellphone' to see if I was going out after work today for drinks or not - I said no, I am heading straight home.<BR>She said its quite ok with her I can go out for a drink if I want to, as they are having a few drinks at work anyhow.<P>Only after she put the phone down did it sink home - if she is still at work, why did she phone me on her cellphone, why not use the phone at work, she is the receptionist?<P>So, I now have to catch the bus home, which takes over an hour - leaving her lots of time to do whatever she wants before I get home, at the earliest at 6:30 pm...............................<P><BR>BUT OF COURSE I cannot ask her that can I - just another lovebuster if I did?????????????????????<P>IF I DO FIND THAT SHE IS STILL SEEING OM SHE IS OUT OF OUR HOME FOR SURE THIS TIME!!!! - Yes I am in that type of mood now and how do I get rid of it?<P>I gave her a "Love Card" this morning, but absolutely no mention of it..............another one I must just ignore - it is really not fun just being walked over all the time without ending up feeling very depressed.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevan:<BR><B> Thanks for the constant reminders - yes, I know I have to just ignore all my suspicions and play along with her...<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Something on the lighter side <P>HOW TO IMPRESS A WOMAN <P>Compliment her, <BR>respect her, <BR>honour her, <BR>cuddle her, <BR>kiss her, caress her, <BR>love her, stroke her, <BR>tease her, <BR>comfort her, <BR>protect her, <BR>hug her, <BR>hold her, <BR>spend money on her, <BR>wine and dine her, <BR>buy things for her, <BR>listen to her, <BR>care for her, <BR>stand by her, <BR>support her, <BR>hold her, <BR>go to the ends of the Earth for her. <P><BR>HOW TO IMPRESS A MAN <P>Show up naked. <BR>Bring food.<BR>Now send this to 10 people or you will have a bad love life for 3 years<P>

Hi Kevan<P>i've just been here for over an hour reading your whole thread.<P>You poor thing. But you're not alone, and you're not the only one to have gone through this.<P>It sucks, and it sucks big time.<P>I don't have much to say to you, but I will share this with you. I made so many mistakes, said so many things, and asked so many questions.<P>ALL OF WHICH DROVE HIM FURTHER AWAY.<P>Does this sound familiar???????<P>This is exactly what you are doing.<P>Of course you have rights. Of course you deserve to be loved by your wife. Of course you deserve to be given a hug and kiss. Of course you have needs, feelings and emotions. But guess what, THAT all means diddly squat to her at the moment. When our spouses are in the throes of an affair or have just ended one, they don't see anything but themselves. As you are so painfully experiencing. I'm so sorry you are going through this too.<P>Please don't take this post the wrong way. I'm usually not so blunt, but I can see where you are headed. The same road that I took. I pushed and pushed and pushed. Pushed so hard I pushed him away, and into her arms. This is where you are going my friend.<P>Now, what to do about it...... Do what I DIDN'T do.!!!!<P>DON'T ASK QUESTIONS<BR>(none at all, you CAN do it)<P>DON'T MAKE HER FEEL FOLLOWED, CHECKED UP ON, HARRASSED<BR>(even if you're not, she sees and thinks that you are)<P>JUST BE THERE. CALMLY, LOVINGLY, FRIENDLY<P>DON'T DISCUSS ANYTHING WITH YOUR CHILDREN, UNLESS THEY ASK YOU. LEAVE THEM OUT OF THIS.<P>This will take it all out of you. You will need those anti-deps with every fibre of your being. But you must NOT ask questions. She will have no answers for you anyway, and what she does say will not satisfy you. It's all a load of bs. My ex-h still has no answers for me, 2 years down the track.<P>I know this is not fair. None of it is. I know if anyone deserves answers, it's us. However, that's not the way this affair 'game' works. They get it all their own way. Whatever they want. You can do no right. Whatever you do or say is wrong. Yep, been there, done that..... It's hideous and I would not wish it on my worst enemy (well, maybe the OW!!!!)<P>However, things change. One day they do wake up and realise what is happening to them. For some it's sooner, for some it's later. Who knows when it will be for your wife.<P>What you need to do is focus on YOU. Find an interest for yourself, and maybe one for you and your son. Use this horrible time as a bonding time for the 'boys' in the family. Take the children away camping or something, to give her space. Make some good come out of something so bad. YOu may just find that when you start giving her space, she won't want it. You may also find that by focussing on your children, and building your relationship up with them, it may just take your mind off things for a while. Even an hour is a relief in our situations.!!!<P>Don't be so available to her. I know, stupid thing to say when you're man and wife, however, what I mean is emotionally available. You have bent over backwards to accomodate her every need and wish. You have bent over backwards to let her know how much you want your marriage to work. Now let her think about those things. <P>GIVE HER THE SPACE SHE WANTS. You have to do this, because it will tear you up if you don't.<P>My ex-h had an affair with someone he worked with (don't they all!!) and when I found out about it, every morning I had to wave him off to work with our 12 month old at the door. I was basically sending him off to her. How do you think that made me feel. Makes me feel sick even now. Anyway, my point is this. <BR>She calls all the shots at the moment. You need to let her do that, and in the meantime, you make youself stronger and able to deal with this.<P>Everyone has their breaking point. Mine came a lot sooner that a lot of others here, but I couldn;t take anymore (& I hadn't found this site)<P>Until you reach your own breaking point, keep hanging in, but give her whatever she wants. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying condone her affair, no way, that's completely unacceptable, but she may have given him up already. Her bahaviour would seem to indicate withdrawal.<P>FOCUS ON YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN MY FRIEND. And get off your high horse about your 'size'. I don't mean to be awful about any insecurities you may have, but have some faith in you as a person. Us women look for more than that you know. Do you make her laugh? Do you like romance? Do you occasionally do the dishes and vacuum? I know you do all that. That is more appealing to *most* women than the size of the willy.<P>And as Dana (I think) said, there's other ways of tantalising and satisfying a woman.... Now that's a whole other thread............LOL Maybe we should start that one. Oh no, I don't want to go there, it's been a while, KABOOM KABOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>Please cheer up, have some faith in you and know that we all love and care about you.<BR>have a great weekend with your kids<BR>Jo

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bonnet:<BR><B>Hi Kevan<P>I don't have much to say to you, but I will share this with you. I made so many mistakes, said so many things, and asked so many questions.<P>ALL OF WHICH DROVE HIM FURTHER AWAY.<P>Does this sound familiar???????<BR>Have a great weekend with your kids<BR>Jo</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is the most degrading experience I think any person could ever experience in life.<P>You know that you were not the complete cause of the affair, but you still have to suffer because of it?<P>This is so, so, so cruel.<P>I have never felt so walked over and humiliated in my life.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bonnet:<BR><B>Hi Kevan<P><BR>JUST BE THERE. CALMLY, LOVINGLY, FRIENDLY<P>DON'T DISCUSS ANYTHING WITH YOUR CHILDREN, UNLESS THEY ASK YOU. LEAVE THEM OUT OF THIS.<P>GIVE HER THE SPACE SHE WANTS<P>And as Dana (I think) said, there's other ways of tantalising and satisfying a woman.... Now that's a whole other thread............LOL Maybe we should start that one. Oh no, I don't want to go there, it's been a while, KABOOM KABOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>Please cheer up, have some faith in you and know that we all love and care about you.<BR>have a great weekend with your kids<BR>Jo</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Does a man have to lose his dignity completely too?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bonnet:<BR><B>Hi Kevan<BR>JUST BE THERE. CALMLY, LOVINGLY, FRIENDLY<P>GIVE HER THE SPACE SHE WANTS. You have to do this, because it will tear you up if you don't.<P>Please cheer up, have some faith in you and know that we all love and care about you.<BR>have a great weekend with your kids<BR>Jo</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Give her space - yes, so she can get further away from me? So that she can find better things to do than she does with me?<BR>So that she can end up in his arms again?<BR>I gave her space last time and look what happened?<P>I asked her why she did it?<BR>She needed someone to lean on, she needed someone to talk to, I never talk to her, she was suffocated, I didnt take notice of her, I didnt buy her things - which is all a load of hogwash.<BR>I have helped her in every way possible at home, always volunteered to do and help with the housework, but we also get tired and need a break.<P>Hey, is anyone perfect? <P>I have had every thing possible thrown in my face believe me, and I have spent my whole life dedicated to her. I have given up many activities because she didnt enjoy them, have not done things because I could not do them with her.<P>I feel like I have just been chewed up and spat out and trampled on.<P>I tried to make a new life for my family and now I get told I care more for my kids than her and what she wants. All she does is moan that we dont have what we used to have, that we have lost so much by coming here, the weather is lousy, she doesnt have a swimming pool anymore, she doesnt have her dogs anymore. She wants a newer home like some of her friends here.<BR>Hey, I miss all these things too, but realize I have had to sacrifice for what we have now - a better quality of life even if the weather isnt so wonderful and our home is a lot smaller. This hurts me too, to see my kids cramped up in small bedrooms with insufficient space and nowhere to entertain their friends. But at the same time I do realze the freedom they have here to come and go, walk around where they want to, have so many more opportunities.

Oh Kevan,<P>I can see and hear the hurt, pain, humiliation and anger that you are going through. That is so normal for us, the betrayed.<P>Yes, it hurts, and it hurts like hell, but until she sees what she is doing, you can't do a thing to change her mind, or her.<P>All you can do is focus on you. Do a lot of soulsearching about where you may have gone wrong in the marriage. For her to have to go outside the marriage, there is something missing. Even tho you think that you have done all a good husband should do, she obviously doesn't. I'm not going to get in the middle of what may have happened in your marriage, but there was obviously something wrong in her mind.<P>When I look back at my own marriage, with the benefit of all that I have been through, and some time, I can see exactly what I did wrong, and where I could have lifted my game. That does not say in ANY way that what he did was acceptable or allowable. It's not for you wife either. What I am saying is that I wasn't there meeting all his needs, so he went outside the marriage.<P>If your wife has said to you 'don't be so accomodating', then don't be. If she needs a lift somewhere, or needs the washing done, tell her you'll have to do it later as you have something else on. Let her see that you have developed an interest that is solely for you. It will be hard to say no that first time, and you're not really saying no, you're saying that you can't do it right when she wants you to do it. You'll do it later.<P>Women are contrary creatures. If she sees that you are not there for her beck and call, she may start wondering why. She may just take that long hard look at herself and start to question what she is doing.<P>I personally think you have allowed her to treat you as a bit of a doormat. I'm sorry to be so honest. Your intentions are so good, and so honourable, but maybe that is what is 'turning her off'........<P>I realise I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but believe me I only care about you in this situation. I have to be honest with what I am picking up from what you are saying. As I said earlier I'm not usually so blunt, but I HATE seeing people being used. And you my friend are being right royally used at the moment. She's using you as a taxi service, a house cleaning service, a babysitting service etc etc etc.<P>Yes she needs time and space. You have to give her that. But don't you dare neglect yourself because of that.<BR>Have you given any thought to my suggestion about making time for you and the kids? Just you 3?<P>Don't ever forget that we're here for you. To let you yell, scream, rant and rave. Whatever you say or do here is ok with us. We've got big broad shoulders.<P>take care of you<P>Jo

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bonnet:<BR><B>Oh Kevan,<P>I can see and hear the hurt, pain, humiliation and anger that you are going through. That is so normal for us, the betrayed.<P>Yes, it hurts, and it hurts like hell, but until she sees what she is doing, you can't do a thing to change her mind, or her.<P>All you can do is focus on you. Do a lot of soulsearching about where you may have gone wrong in the marriage. For her to have to go outside the marriage, there is something missing. Even tho you think that you have done all a good husband should do, she obviously doesn't. I'm not going to get in the middle of what may have happened in your marriage, but there was obviously something wrong in her mind.<P>When I look back at my own marriage, with the benefit of all that I have been through, and some time, I can see exactly what I did wrong, and where I could have lifted my game. That does not say in ANY way that what he did was acceptable or allowable. It's not for you wife either. What I am saying is that I wasn't there meeting all his needs, so he went outside the marriage.<P>If your wife has said to you 'don't be so accomodating', then don't be. If she needs a lift somewhere, or needs the washing done, tell her you'll have to do it later as you have something else on. Let her see that you have developed an interest that is solely for you. It will be hard to say no that first time, and you're not really saying no, you're saying that you can't do it right when she wants you to do it. You'll do it later.<P>Women are contrary creatures. If she sees that you are not there for her beck and call, she may start wondering why. She may just take that long hard look at herself and start to question what she is doing.<P>I personally think you have allowed her to treat you as a bit of a doormat. I'm sorry to be so honest. Your intentions are so good, and so honourable, but maybe that is what is 'turning her off'........<P>I realise I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but believe me I only care about you in this situation. I have to be honest with what I am picking up from what you are saying. As I said earlier I'm not usually so blunt, but I HATE seeing people being used. And you my friend are being right royally used at the moment. She's using you as a taxi service, a house cleaning service, a babysitting service etc etc etc.<P>Yes she needs time and space. You have to give her that. But don't you dare neglect yourself because of that.<BR>Have you given any thought to my suggestion about making time for you and the kids? Just you 3?<P>Don't ever forget that we're here for you. To let you yell, scream, rant and rave. Whatever you say or do here is ok with us. We've got big broad shoulders.<P>take care of you<P>Jo</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Jo,<P>Thanks for your continuing support.<P>Soul-searching I have done believe me, for 9 months thats all I have done.<BR>I have gone through Emotional Needs, Love Busters, Why do women leave men, Basic Concepts, PLan A & B and nearly every related article on this site.<P>I ask my wife where am I missing out, she just says be yourself - well it was myself wasnt it that caused her to look elsewhere for her needs.<P>I was suffering from depression before her affair, mainly because I felt that I was not living up to her expectations and could not give her everything she required, and that I was failing as an income provider. And the stresses and pressures of starting a new life in Canada, having to downgrade our style of life, and because my wife could not settle here and was constantly moaning about the weather, the people she worked with, her family and friends that she was dragged away from, the extra work load that she now has. But yet it was not only my decision to come here.<P>Yes, I was on anti-deps before, right up to March last year. The doctor and my wife said it was itme to come off them, I was even myself feeling a lot better, but jad tremendous stress and pressure in the job I had. It does get to you when youyr boss tells you "If you cant do it, just tell me and we'll find someone else instead." - How does that make you feel when you know the company is battling and wanting to reduce staff and you have been looking for another job for 6 months and cant find anything?<P>Then my wife tells me recently that work is not everything - it would have looked a lot sicker if I didnt have a job. I am a very conscientious worker.<P>Then my wife also tells me I am not romantic, I have never been, it must just be something to do with South African men - they just dont know how to be romantic. Lovely.<P>One of the biggest problems is that she has still not accepted that we have done this all for our kids to give them a better life and she feels like she is just treated as the maidservant - hey, I work my backside off too in the home.<P>Boy, I have tried everything in the book, loving, caring, helping, listening everyhting suggested on this site to be nice and loving to your wife.<P>She tells me she had the affair because she needed someone to lean one (so she ended up lying on him too).<P>Yes, I have done much soul-searching alright on where I have gone wrong - but maybe I am just dumb or thick - but I do feel I need some more input from my wife than the above or be told that She doesnt feel she should have to "coach" me.<P>I love her termendously but she has always hidden so much of her emotions, now she is hiding other things too. - Must I just ignore thsi and go on happily like nothing has happened? I do not believe our marriage is over, I do believe it can be fully healed - but really neeed some positive input from my wife too - not just "I need time", "I want to go back to SA and you cant stop me" - but yet she keeps on putting it off.<P>She just expects me to forget it all like it never happened. But at the same time I must accept that she does not want to be intimate any more - I asked her what and why - she says "Well, maybe I have changed".<P>She just wants to go back to SA to her Mommy and her old friends and seems blind to what is going on there these days.<P>I am just so really confused.<P>I know I sound like I am just going around in circles.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bonnet:<BR><B>Oh Kevan,<P>Women are contrary creatures. If she sees that you are not there for her beck and call, she may start wondering why. She may just take that long hard look at herself and start to question what she is doing.<P>I personally think you have allowed her to treat you as a bit of a doormat. I'm sorry to be so honest. Your intentions are so good, and so honourable, but maybe that is what is 'turning her off'........<P>Don't ever forget that we're here for you. To let you yell, scream, rant and rave. Whatever you say or do here is ok with us. We've got big broad shoulders.<P>take care of you<P>Jo</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Turn her off? Turn her on ???<P>Who the hell knows anymore? Does it not make a person suspicious when she is happy to be here at home, with her kids and me when it suits her, but the minute it comes to any closeness she backs away? <P>This makes me feel like they are still involved and she's enjoying it, having the extra attention from both sides.<P>I could be very wrong too I suppose, but she has always shied away from approaching people and breaking things off, but still wants me to believe everything is ok and just wnats me to forget it all happened.<P>How can you just FORGET and put it all behind you when she still has problems being close and intimate. Hell, its not me that was sleeping around? Its not me that was lying to her for 6 months?<P>This is so very very difficult when she doesnt want to be totally open talk about things.<P>Am I really being too hasty - 9 months after the discovery and feel like it was yesterday and that we are not moving forward?<P>Hey man, I have gone through Emotional Needs, Love Busters, Basic Concepts, Why Women Leave men and nearly every other article on this webiste searching for the right thing to do and still feel no closer to a resolution?<P>I asked her this afternoon if she still wants me and wants me to be her husband? She said "Yes, but please lets not start this all over again" There is some warmth coming from her, but more towards the kids, and she is still so distant in many ways.........<P>I think if this keeps up I am just going to get out of here for my own sanity.

Hi Kevan,<P>I have been reading your posts off and on. I noticed that much of your efforts are being either overcome with another excuse or buried by your W. Isn't this draining on you? It is for me. After awhile, I stopped rolling with my H's excuses and started treating him by the conflict avoider rules. Be as agreeable as possible, then give them questions or statements to make them think. Get them to use their gray cells. It helps clear the fog even if it is just for a little while. <P>Their excuses will be endless because they are not giving you the real reason. If they can't find an excuse then it is either "you don't understand" or "I don't know". Well you do understand and they do know, but just not telling. If they don't know then maybe they should go with the one who does know and understand. But they often don't because they want to continue on that roller coaster ride. Figure out if you want to stay on that ride or not. <P>If all this seems confusing, well it is. Talking with my H makes me dizzy and lightheaded. He talks in vague terms and ends in "I don't know". After he leaves, you find out that he made no commitment and the talk was basically worthless. No sizeable progress. So why does he stop by and talk? I don't know. See how catching that disease can be? <P>Example, H came by tonight, we started talking and he actually forgot what he came over to talk about. Go figure. He was over for 1 1/2 hours and could not remember what he wanted to talk about. I brought topics that needed to be discussed, but he never remembered. Also, he did not want to tell me on the phone the purpose for his visit so I did not have a clue. <P>It is hard to deal with those in the fog. I have learned not to stress as much by trying harder than I have to. I am a giver by trade so this has been a real test for me. <P>Hang in there. Sure wish there was a spousal appreciation pill we could give our mates. <P>L.

Hi Kevan,<P>I sure can remember that feeling of going round and round in circles. vividly.<P>Made me dizzy and sick to my stomach.<P>I'm going to think about you and your situation. I really don't know what to say at the moment. The fact that your w isn't leaving you, and isn't going back to SA, seems positive in its own way. <P>The fact that she doesn't want to talk, or discuss things, or come clean about things, or surprise surprise, doesn't know anything, is normal. So normal for these people in the fog that it's scary.<P>How many people out there in big business, operating on patients, driving trucks or some such thing, all the while in this fog...... scary scary thought.<P>I haven't asked my ex-h any questions for such a long time now. All I ever got was "I don't know." Really and truly, every single question I asked was met with the same response. Drove me insane. I had to let it go for the sake of my own sanity.<P>All I can say to you is that she will weave and duck around the issues if she doesn't want to talk about them. You cannot make her. Again, what I said before. You need to focus on YOU. Make yourself a better person for YOU. Not for her, but you. Only by working on yourself will you not drive yourself insane.<P>Are you one of those people that likes to please everyone else, in order to keep the peace and keep everyone ELSE happy, sometimes to the detriment of yourself.?? If you are, maybe that is one area that you could work on. Work on saying NO once in a while. Nicely of course, but if it doesn't suit you, or you can't do it, then don't.<P>Again, I'm making assumptions here, but I'm trying to get a feel on where you are coming from, and ways that you may be able to work on yourself. I know that I had to learn patience, and learn to listen, really listen. Just keep my mouth shut and let him talk. It took some time, but I think I do ok now. Better than I used to anyway.<P>hope your tomorrow is better<P>hugs<P>Jo

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bonnet:<BR><B>Hi Kevan,<P>I sure can remember that feeling of going round and round in circles. vividly..............<P>Are you one of those people that likes to please everyone else, in order to keep the peace and keep everyone ELSE happy, sometimes to the detriment of yourself.?? If you are, maybe that is one area that you could work on. Work on saying NO once in a while. Nicely of course, but if it doesn't suit you, or you can't do it, then don't.<BR>hugs<P>Jo</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks Jo, much appreciated.<P>Is it no tamazing ho w people in these situations are just blind to what they have done and are doing?<P>It often gets so bad that I wonder if it is just a figment of my imagination - that I am being neurotic about it all, but then you just get that gut feeling that everything is rosy on the surface but something is just not right?<P>Yes, I am often the type of person, especially at home that will try and smooth things over, look at the other persons perspective wherever possible, take their feelings into account, and just please them to keep the peace - not always though, but in many situations. <BR>Especially when it comes to someone that will find an excuse and lash out in defense as soon as anything goes wrong.<BR>Hey, my wife scraped the car twice last year in the shopping centre parking lot. The first time she told me about it, she was quite upset about it, I said, well don't worry, these things happen, just be careful next time (whats the use of getting all upset about it anyhow) - she got it repaired.<BR>The second time, she didnt even tell me. Then I got mad, mainly because she didnt tell me, not because she bumped it (which was carelessness anyhow). Then she tells me she didnt tell me because she thought I had already seen it and she was scared to tell me because I would have gotten upset about it. - Good way to pass the blame.<P>Maybe I should get a little more upset about things, hey.<P>Well, anyhow I did get very upset about the affair of course, and I am sure this has been half the problem.<BR>I think the main reason I was really upset is that she was lying to me for 6 months about it all and telling me nothing was happening after I caught her with her bag of lingerie early in the year. Here I was just about believeing her that nothing was happening, although did have my doubts. I was praying daily asking the Lord if anything was happening between them. Yes I got a very rude awakening when she was found out. What upset me even more was the fact that it was our son who had to discover them in the park of all places.<BR>What has been holding me back all the time is her refusal to understand that she had to break it off completely with OM.<BR>Only when my son approached her straight out and told her that he was ready to move out did we get some action, but then it took quite a while too.<P>Believe it or not we did make love last night, the first time in a long time, although I was in big trouble this morning because I was evidently snoring all night. My wife is a very light sleeper and is having tremendous problems sleeping these last two years, even if I am not in the bedroom with her, which has been more often than not the last few months.<P>I guess we can only try what we can and leave them to make up their own minds - but it really makes you feel like dirt because you do feel that it was not all your fault that it had to go that far, and why were these things not openly approached with you beforehand - I guess its just true what they say about hindsight, and it is just a very cruel world we live in.<P>Just to add to it all, had one helluva bad day at work too. <sniffle><P>Thanks guys for all the support and hugs - really appreciated.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bonnet:<BR><B>Hi Kevan,<P>I sure can remember that feeling of going round and round in circles. vividly.<P>Made me dizzy and sick to my stomach.<P>I'm going to think about you and your situation. I really don't know what to say at the moment. The fact that your w isn't leaving you, and isn't going back to SA, seems positive in its own way. <P>hope your tomorrow is better<P>hugs<P>Jo</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi again Jo,<P>Well I am pretty sure if it wasnt for financial constraints she would have gone back to SA a long time ago - and maybe it would have even prevented this stupid senseless affair - but then who knows what she might of got up to in SA anyhow - wow, I am really mistrusting aren't I???? <P>Wonder why???<P>I know I am crossposting, but here is some feedback I received about forgetting from another board:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>Originally posted by pacness:<BR>Kev,<BR>it has been 8 years since my wife had her A. She was made every effort to make it work. I know this in my gut, but the fear has not gone away. I don't think it will ever go away. You have been married for 22 years. In your mind, you will never trust her. If you see a guy that looks like the one she had the A with, it will bring all those feelings to the surface. That is the reality. Your relationship will never be the same. In my case, I am enjoying life with my wife, but in the back of my mind, I will never put my guard down. I could never fully trust her.<BR></B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>Daer PAcness,<P>How fortunate you are that your wife has seen the light of day and has put every effort into it and is doing everything she can to restore things - you just dont know how fortunate you are.<P>Hey, not only if I see someone that resembles him, every time I go past the park where they were caught kissing, every time I see a car that is similar to his, every time my wife tells me a naughty joke (yes they used to swap many dirty jokes), every time I go any where near the company they used to work together at, every time we drive along the highway in the area he lives in, every time she switches off her cellphone after work, every time she mentions the company they used to work for, every time a friend mentions someone else's affair and infidelity, every time Idrive down to the river where they allegedly mad love (still got my doubts about where it happened), every time we drive past the bar they used to go to - then it all floods back again and I get these alternating feelings of either deep anger and want to go and beat up the swine, or feel so damn depressed that I did something wrong and caused it all to happen.<P>I am sure as you say this is one experience that will never go away and its true, I cannot see how I could ever trust her again to the degree that I did before, and for that matter trust any woman in my life again as far as a relationship goes, although at this stage I am not planning on starting up an other relationships.<P>As I said to my daughter this morning, does my wife really expect me, right now to trust her and not be suspicious, and do I not have the right to feel suspicious when, like last night, ater work, she did not answer her cellphone at all, both me and my kids were trying to get hold of her, and she evidently locked her handbag in the trunk of the car and went for a walk down by the river until 6:15 pm?<BR>Of course she got really upset when I asked her where she had been and gave me hell because I had called her five times (correction, I only called three times and my kids twice). I was on the point of asking her who she had gone for a walk with, but thought I had better just shut up and not cause any more friction - yes, me backing down again.<BR>All I was trying to do was to tell her that I was leaving work a bit late and not to worry if I got home a bit late........<BR>Hey, am I wrong here again - do I not still have the right to be suspicious after all that has happened and the resistance I have received from her.<P>I know two wrongs dont make a right, but just wonder how she would feel if I started doing these types of things every second night and got mad with her if she started checking up on what I was doing - I know she wouldnt do it out of principle just to prove to me that she was a better person than me.<P>Why do people have to be so damn hard-headed and stubborn and live in a state of denial, do they not realize what pain and torment they are causing others?<P>I am still in very much doubt whether she has broken off contact with OM........<P>Oh, yes, now she wants to know how she can set up her own private Hotmail email account. I asked her why, what is wrong with the one we have at home, she answered "Well, why not, why cant I have some privacy in my life? The kids have their own so why cant I?"<P>Makes you feel really good about re-securing a secret-free, honest open marriage doesnt it?<P>Or again, am I just being neurotic?<BR>