My wife had an affair - I still want her - Marriage Builders® Forums

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We have been married for twenty-two years. This is a lengthy story but I would rather get the story straight and leave nothing out. My wife had an affair with a man she worked with last year, she says its all over now but is still friends with him, which is upsetting me incredibly. Am I wrong? This all started early last year, I had to go away on work for a few weeks unexpectedly, something that was completely beyond my control. I missed her birthday while I was away, but did bring her home a lovely gift and phoned her every day. While I was away I kept on telling her to go out now and again with some of her girlfriends which she did occasionally. It so happened that I was delayed in coming home for an additional week also completely beyond my control. The plane arrived in late, my luggage got lost and I was pretty flustered. Over the weekend my wife told me she was going out with one of her girlfriends on the Monday night straight after work and she would be home later. This did not worry me at all. When she got home that Monday night she seduced me like never before and we made passionate love like we had never had in many years, but I just felt something was not right. The next morning I checked the trunk of the car and found a bag containing her best sexy lingerie. I approached her with it and she got very upset and apologetic and promised me nothing happened and eventually told me who it was, this guy she was working with, they went out for drinks. He had become a good friend and had helped her a lot at the company they were working for. I believed her. This took a few weeks for me to get over, but I did get very suspicious every time she went out and started checking up on what she was doing, which upset her. This went on for a few months and I did suspect that something was going on even though she promised many times that nothing was going on and got very upset when I checked up on her. In the interim I changed jobs, middle of the year and now have a very stressful demanding job which my wife encouraged me to take, but still suspected something may not be right. A month later it all came out. My 16 year-old SON saw the two of them necking and kissing in one of the local parks after work. This nearly killed me, never mind the effect on my son, and I got very very upset, as she then admitted that she had a relationship with this man and had made love to him, she says only once, in his car at a sheltered spot next to the river……, although I know in my heart that it was in a park one night after they had been out for a company dinner... This nearly wiped me out, as I am not that big a person and have always felt embarrassed because I am not that well endowed and this guy is a lot bigger than me, both in stature and his penis. My wife even admitted this to me when I asked her. We were both virgins when we met each other. No, I did not kick my wife out, I was very upset more because of all the lies, but insisted she stay and we resolve this and get on with our lives and patch things up. It has taken me a long time to deal with what has happened and I feel absolutely useless, worthless and a fool. Yes, I have got a bit possessive now and she gets very upset because I keep on checking up on her, but all I want is to get this behind us, get the truth out in the open and go on. I am willing to go for counselling but she does not want to, as she insists that no-one can help her with the way she feels. She tells me that she still loves me but refuses to break off the friendship with this guy and insists that they are just friends and I am just trying to “Control” her by insisting that she stops seeing him altogether, even though it is hurting me so much. We have had many arguments about this and she often goes out with her girlfriends as she says she needs some space from me. One of these friends is a divorcee who has already told me that I must go out and find my own friends and let my wife have her own friends. Later last year I discovered that she had changed the mailing address for her cellphone account to his address. When I asked her about it she said she was sick of me checking up on her and that it was her private business and nothing to do with me and that all I wanted to see was how many times she had been phoning him. Late last year I eventually convinced her to get the account mailed back to our home address. I thought things were really improving before Christmas, but then I noticed on Christmas day that she had a new 14 carat gold bracelet on. When I asked her where she got it from, she first told me she bought it herself on a sale. Later when I asked her again she admitted that the same guy had given it to her for Christmas. This upset the rest of my day, as it was a much fancier gift than the gold chain and pendant that I had given my wife. How can I now believe that it is just a casual friendship? Do men really give this type of gift to someone who is just a friend, I find this hard to believe, or am I wrong? My children are very upset about the situation too and I can see it is affecting their life and schoolwork. My daughter keeps on asking why her mother is talking and treating me so lousy. I really love my wife tremendously and out of respect for my wife have told no-one about this up to now but just don’t know how to deal with it anymore. She is all I have and really do not want to lose her. AM I WRONG IN ASKING HER TO GIVE UP THIS “FRIENDSHIP” FOR OUR SAKES? Can I really believe this is just a friendship? I really do not want to end this marriage, I love my wife very very much. She says she needs some space and is feeling suffocated and just does not want to discuss it with me any more, although she is making no moves to leave right now and says she does love me, although has often threatened that she has to get away from it all. [This message has been edited by kevan (edited January 22, 2001).]

Whoa! Go back to that post and edit it so it has a few paragraph breaks (center icon). But I did see enough to notice that there is an "emotional affair" at least going on. You don't stop that by demanding it unilaterally. Look into Plans A and B, and Dr. Harley's writings on affairs.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: Whoa! Go back to that post and edit it so it has a few paragraph breaks (center icon). But I did see enough to notice that there is an "emotional affair" at least going on. You don't stop that by demanding it unilaterally. Look into Plans A and B, and Dr. Harley's writings on affairs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok this is a start? I am new to this group, so what is "Plans A and B" and where do I get to "Dr. Harley's wiritng on affairs"

<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html</A>

I am sorry to hear about your relationship. Believe me, we all understand it here, at least to one degree or another.Personal suggestion, definatly look into plan A and plan B. They are quite sound concepts and can work. Also look into counsling, if for no one else but yourself. Continue to try and get your wife to go with you. Watch your children, they may need their own private counsling to help them with some of the things that they are witnessing.Read as much as you can here. There is some very valuable information on this site that will help you. Come here to vent or ask questions. You will not find a better group of people around. The people here do truly care. And last know that you are not alone in this and know that you will survive!~Java

here are some links that I was given when I first started out here. They really do help! I am sure someone else could make them look neater, but hey, I tried here. I am just not as well versed in doing things like this.... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html</A> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html</A> [This message has been edited by JavaAllNightLong (edited January 22, 2001).]

Kev - I think you put the paragraph breaks in, but it's still a little daunting without blank lines between the paragraphs. I know it still makes my eyes swim...

kevan:"My wife had an affair with a man she worked with last year, she says its all over now but is still friends with him, which is upsetting me incredibly. Am I wrong?"In my opinion, no you're not wrong. Friends after an affair - not likely. Even if the sex is over, the passion is simmering, waiting for something to bring it to a boil.I understand your pain and your fear. You don't want to lose the wife you love and you're afraid to push too hard and insist too much. You feel inferior to this "bigger" man. You are not inferior. He is. He got involved with a woman he knew was married and messed with her marriage. Now you have some links thanks to sis and Java, to the site to read up on Plan A and Plan B and the rest of the Harley's philosophy. That you were out of town on her birthday may have provided her an opportunity and even been the catalyst to permit her to enter into an affair. Things may have been missing in your marriage. But it doesn't justify what she did.Her being secretive and resenting your checking up on her and turning on you, making you the bad guy for being suspicious, is the guilt of a betraying spouse coming out as an offense (best defense is an offense).The bracelet - that's just cruel. She's literally waving it in your face. What to do about that?? Don't know.Her divorced friend isn't a friend at all. She's helping to widen the rift in your marriage rather than heal it. Finally, your wife and her "friend" have hurt the kids. What your 16 year old son saw was truly despicable. Your daughter sees how your wife treats you and comments on it.Counseling with the Harleys? Consider it. If not, try to find someone who believes in marriage and families; and doesn't condone or facilitate divorce.SOrry, but welcome to our little purgatory. Her actions [This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited January 22, 2001).]

Thanks to everyone for this help, as a start. So, I guess the first step is to try and explain to my wife again that she should stop all contact with this guy. How do I do that when I have already tried twice already, once after I had been to my local doctor and discussed what had happened (I told her the doctor suggested it), and once a few months later when we had a disagreement and I eventually convinced her to change the mailing address on her cellphone account back to our home address. At this time it was atrade-off that she at least change the cellphone address as she kept on insisting that this was just a control issue and all I wanted to do was CONTROL HER?? I feel if I approach her again about it, she will just get mad at me again. I am feeling pretty desperate right now as I have discussed this many times, sometimes in the wrong way (anger), sometimes calmly, to the stage where she says she just doesnt want to talk about it anymore, I must just give her time and believe that I love her. Yes, I have been pretty angry at times, but have also pratically gone on myhands and knees to do my best to give her what I can.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bellevue: kevan: SOrry, but welcome to our little purgatory. Her actions <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Feb 13thSo, no matter what I try now, it is to no avail, she has made up her mind that she is leaving and going back to SA to her demanding, selfish, hard-headed mother who has basically manipulated her all her life. So why bother even trying anymore, I am just wasting my energy that I should be using to better myself. She makes me as horny as all hell every time I see her because I am so attracted to her. No, she is not a perfect model but she is definitely attractive especially for her age and even some of my friends have commented on it and have even shown that they would love to get her into bed, even the guy I thought was my best friend finds it difficult to keep his hands off her once he has had a few drinks. I have mentioned this to her, but she says I must stop being ridiculous, he is just having some fun, but I can see how obvious it is, I am no fool. Of course I am the last person she wants to get into bed with now, as I just am not good enough for her anymore and have hurt her so much with my words and actions that she will never warm to me again. She has found someone else more physically appealing that can meet her sexual needs better than what I ever have. I have always felt that I wasn’t giving her enough as I am below average in sexual girth and now that she has found a real man I guess I have lost her completely because she has found that size really does matter and does make a difference. I can see that she would just love to get back with this man and experience some more of what she had with him and is just getting more and more frustrated staying with me.She thinks I am just a useless weakling, as she has already told me that she wants her husband to be a man, not a wimp like I have been the last few years and the last year in particular while I have been trying to cope and keep my head above water and stay employed so as to meet her and my children’s financial needs. Was I so blinded that I did not see what was happening, yes I did suspect things, but surely after all these years of marriage you would think that she would have approached me first and told me where I was going wrong in our relationship, even though I know myself that sometimes I do tend just to ignore things.Every time she talks to me I can hear the anger and how she despises me by the tone of her voice. She has given up trying to be nice to me any longer and just views me as a burden to her life and just feels obliged to be with me until she can get the hell out of this country. As I told her last night all I want is to hold her in my arms and love her, but she said she is going back to SA regardless and I must come to terms with that. Well then, she must go and get herself sorted out whatever it takes, I have had enough of trying to suit her every need, getting frustrated when I cant meet them. I know there is the very good chance that once she gets there she will find someone more suited to her needs. She has proven to herself that she can do it as she has once already in the last year, so why shouldn’t she do it again once I am out of her way? She will have no responsibilities to worry about once she leaves here.I am really trying my best to get into my job but am just being overwhelmed by this all the time and find it very difficult to concentrate on anything. How I despise the day that this affair came out in the open and that the two of them were so stupid, brazen and careless to sit and kiss each other in Minoru Park in broad daylight and that my son had to see them. This just shows that she has little or no respect left for me and actually did not care who saw them together and was just more interested in having a good time. Some of our friends do use this park occasionally too as a place to relax. She must have been really fed up with me to do something like this, after me believing that she would never do something like this, as even though she used to joke around with our friends often as we all do she always portrayed that she did not like the very promiscuous attitude of the people she worked with. Although I did at the time start seeing that her attitude and level of morality was changing with time the longer she worked there with this bunch of immoral bunch of men. I did, many times try and get her to leave this company, primarily because of the health problems she was experiencing from the chemical fumes but also because of the attitude of the people in the company.How do I get rid of this anger and frustration that builds up inside me every time I think of this guy and what he has caused by seducing my wife? Often when I think about it I get this horrible feeling running through my body like an electric current that is burning me. I think of the two of them making love and I get this horrible big knot in my stomach and just want to die. Every time I see a dark-blue Buick, the same as he drives these feelings well up again inside me. Every time my wife mentions the company or I find paperwork at home with the company name on it, it makes me furious. Every time I drive past Minoru Park I get so upset. I am sure that most of the people at that company know what has happened and are smirking behind my back at what a fool I have been to mistreat such a lovely person as my wife and let this happen. Mind you, they are such an immoral bunch that they most probably think, well done, at least he managed to get in her pants. One of the main topics of interest around that office was sex and promiscuity with dirty jokes being circulated quite often. As an example, even after my wife had left the company, when she re-routed her cellphone account to his Post Office Box address (so that I would not see who she had been in contact with), he dropped it off at the company she is working at presently in an envelope together with a graphic joke of the Bay-Watch girls giving blow-jobs. He called it a ‘little ha-ha”! I find this pretty hard to accept that it is just something ‘innocent’ coming from a ‘friend’.Besides the fact that he is still in contact with her in this fashion, I also find it upsetting that he has the cheek to go and visit my wife at the company she is working at presently. One of our good friends works together with my wife at this company. I have only had the opportunity once to visit my wife where she works presently and she ushered me outside as soon as I arrived without introducing me to anyone. Her excuse was that they were very strict about visitors and did not take kindly to people standing around which seems a bit lame to me, considering that at the previous company she was pretty open about introducing me to her workmates.Slowly but surely all our friends here are finding out what has happened and I am feeling more of a fool and an idiot every day because I know that most of this has been my fault for not giving my wife what she really wanted in life, that is to live close to her mother.What a fool I have been to think that we could ever have been happy here in Canada. I should just have done what she wanted many years ago and moved down to Durban so that she could be close to her mother. Her mother is now suffering from skin cancer, osteo-arthritis and emphysema, although will still not stop smoking cigarettes despite all the doctor’s warnings. We would have ended up with them living with us and supporting them, as he is just a lazy bum who thinks that we should now be obliged to support him in his old age. As an outsider I find it so difficult to accept that she is willing to go back to the two people who have caused her so much pain and anguish in her life when she was young. I suppose I am just very insensitive and don’t realize the mother-daughter bond. She has already told me that my sister is taking care of my mother so I have nothing to worry about. Maybe she is right, I should be like my sister’s husband and just accept that I must take in my parents-in-law and look after them? There is a subtle difference here, my parents were always and my mother still is financially independent to a large degree.Yesterday morning I left for work feeling very depressed and was really upset and in tears. This is mainly due to the feeling of guilt that I have for what has happened and what I have done to her and the constant feeling that she is just tolerating me and is sick and tired of my nonsense and that I cannot let go of it. She phoned me a few times at work yesterday morning, but I was very busy and only managed to call her back around 10:30 am. Straight away I could hear the anger, sharpness and resentment in her voice because I had not called her back when she thought I should have called her back. This continued even when I got home last night and no matter how much I apologize to her for what has happened and tell her that I still love her very deeply, she just seems to be ignoring me more and more. She says she cannot take it anymore and I must just pull myself right. I asked her last might how her day had been and she answered, “terrible, what do you expect after walking out of here in the condition you were?”Today, Valentine’s day I bought her a dozen red roses in a vase and a card, and left it on the dining room table as she was still asleep when I left for work. I got a surprising phone call when she got to work, thanking me for the flowers and the lovely surprise she got when she walked downstairs this morning. This is the first time in quite a while that I have heard a loving tone in her voice.

kevan, are you getting any counseling or therapy? You are not only dealing with your wife's betrayal, and the inevitable grief, loss, hurt, insecurity, and fear that stem from it; but you are also dealing with self-doubt, feelings of guilt (much of it false guilt), and probably with depression. That's a lot to try to handle on your own.I think you should spend less time worrying about what you could have done in the past that might or might not have made any difference, and concentrate more on what you can do now. Have you read up on Plan A yet?There are two things you need to do. First, take care of yourself and work on your self-respect. Second, show your wife that you love her, and that you love her unconditionally. This is what Plan A is for.It is not necessarily a bad thing for her to move back to be with her mother, especially if living with you compares favorably. This may serve to remind her of what she has left. Furthermore, it is a good thing for your wife to separate herself from the OM, and moving away accomplishes this to at least some degree. But if your wife does move to be with her mother, then you will need to seriously consider following her. This would show her that you are serious about wanting her back, which is good, but it also could be taken as a sign that you can't let go of her. You want to avoid that, since you must let go of her. If she doesn't come back of her own free will, then you will never really have her back at all.Juggling all these things is not going to be easy. I wish it were.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume: But if your wife does move to be with her mother, then you will need to seriously consider following her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Following her is going to be very very difficult. Firstly I have two children, a daughter aged 20, studying third year at university. A son, aged 16, in Grade 11. Both of my children have emphatically stated that they do not want to leave this country. We came here to give them a better life. Secondly, following my wife would mean moving to a country the other side of the world, literally.NOW, HOW, HOW, do I stop wanting to be physically close to my wife. Through this all I have not pulled away from her but have this overwhelming desire to be as close to my lovely wife as possible every chance I can get. This is pullingme apart because she is shying away.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: NOW, HOW, HOW, do I stop wanting to be physically close to my wife. Through this all I have not pulled away from her but have this overwhelming desire to be as close to my lovely wife as possible every chance I can get. This is pullingme apart because she is shying away.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, let me know if you figure it out. By far the hardest thing for me in my own situation is that I can't give my wife a hug and tell her how much I love her.All I can say is that you can't always get what you want. That's just something you've got to accept.

KevanRest assured it is not because of sex or lack of or size,that your wife had the affair, especially after 20 yrs of marriage. For women, it is usually because the other man (om) is meeting some other needs that make her feel romantic and then the romantic feeling turn to sex. You are receiving good advice here. You may also want to post on the Just FOund Out site where there are many other to support you.You must have patience. Do not rush into any snap judgements. Read up on Plan A.Good Luck and God Bless.Bob

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: Following her is going to be very very difficult.Firstly I have two children, a daughter aged 20, studying third year at university. A son, aged 16, in Grade 11. Both of my children have emphatically stated that they do not want to leave this country. We came here to give them a better life.Secondly, following my wife would mean moving to a country the other side of the world, literally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I just wanted to point out that I didn't say it would be easy, and I didn't say you should do it. I said you should consider it.You should also consider whether it's a good idea to uproot your children in order to follow what might end up being a pipedream...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume: You should also consider whether it's a good idea to uproot your children in order to follow what might end up being a pipedream...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I know in my heart that I cannot take my family back there, I know that what they have now and what they will have in the future no matter what happens will still be more than they would ever have had there. I know that even for myself going back there for whatever reason will not improve anything. I guess some things you just cannot do anything about, but you can always try your best, especially for someone you love so deeply want to give them everything you can. I just want to forget it all and go on. I am really afraid of losing my job through all this as I just cannot concentrate on my work as I should be doing and there is no way I can let anyone at work know what has/is happening, it will only make katters worse and I know they will see me in a bad light for not being able to cope with my family life.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: I guess some things you just cannot do anything about, but you can always try your best, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So thats it, screwed up again. I got home last nighta bit late from work, unaviodable. At least got a peck on the cheek this time. My wife went upstairs, came down and found me looking at her little notebook with her telephone numbers in it. It is a little business diary and I reall wasnt interested in her damn telephone numbers, was just looking at all the intersrting info they put in these littel diaries, like the maps, conversion table etc. Of course she blew a fuse and started giving me hell about me poking my nose in her personal belongings. Its not as if I went snooping in her handbag, it was on the diningroom table. So of course another argument. Even though I apologised many times for doing this I still got the cold shoulder. My 16 year old son was upset again last night about this all and is now convinced it is time he moved out for a while, says he cant take me being beaten up like this and treated like cr..p all the time for stupid inconsequential things and cant take the fact that she thinks it is till alright that she keeps in contact with the [censored] OM. I am going for counselling again tonight whether she likes it or not and whether she thinks it is a stupid idea or not.Love all you guys out there that are helping and supporting me through this.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: was just looking at all the intersrting info they put in these littel diaries, like the maps, conversion table etc. Of course she blew a fuse and started giving me hell about me poking my nose in her personal belongings.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Anything that looks like suspicion or distrust is not part of a good Plan A. It's a lovebuster. Once she realizes that she's in danger of losing something irreplaceable, that's when you get a recovery plan in place that shatters those ridiculous boundaries. Right now, you seem far from that point, but you're pressing like you're already there. Stop alienating your son from her, tell him that you have plenty to answer for yourself, and that forgiveness will be hard to come by for anyone if the family fractures. Ask him not to be the one to start that happening.Stay in touch and good luck.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: Stay in touch and good luck.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, now I have done it, me and my big damn mouth, when will I ever learn to shut up and keep my stupid selfish emotions to myself. Somehow I think the chance of getting close again to her is now gone for good.We had a pretty good weekend, a bit strained but quite good.Then Sunday night I blew it again. Started discussing with her our relationship and what is happening and where we are going. She has just had enough of me harping on it all the time and me reminding her and off-loading guilt onto her.I am just finding it so difficult to accept that she will not completely break off contact with this OM.A few weeks ago I said to her that I cannot expect her to change any of her relationships until I can improve myself and get myself sorted out, but this is just completely eating me away.She feels caged in, oppressed and smothered. I have never meant to do this but possibly have without realising it as she had more freedom in South Africa than what she has had here having to work fullday.It is quite obvious I have not been pulling my weight enough and relying too much on her as she said last weekend she did it with the OM because she needed someone to lean on.She has now told me she will be going back to South Africa as soon as possible and doubts if she will ever return to Canada.This is all as a result of me not being able to keep my mouth shut. I told the kids everything that has been going on because they keep on asking me why she wouldnt give up this OM completely. They knew I was upset on Christmas day but did not know why until I stupidly told them instead of keeping my big mouth shut. (about the gift OM bought her). She is now sick and tired that every weekend I start my nonsense about our relationship and just feels that I will never ever let her forget it. All I want is just to get back to our old selves but I guess that is now gone forever through my stupidity, insensitivenes, and selfishness.She is very very upset with me that I told the kids everything and all the details and that I have actually poisoned them against her (my catching them in the Shopping Mall last year when I got called away from the golf tournament and went hunting for her to tell her I had to go to work, the resultant argument with OM where he told me that I must stop treating her like a child and grow up as the affair was over and they were just friends [that was before Christmas], the gold bracelet gift OM gave her for Christmas, that she was still in contact with him but I was not too sure how serious it was, that it was tearing me apart) , what a damn fool I have been.Our son got upset last night and told her that he could not take the fighting anymore, cannot concentrate on his schoolwork and wants to go and stay with someone else for a while until we sort things out. She got very very upset about this and refused to listen to our son and demanded that I put this right. Our son then blurted it out that he cannot take it anymore that she is still in contact with this OM. She told him that her relationships and the relationship between me and her were not of direct concern of the kids and that whatever happens she still loves them tremendously, but it did not end there and our son and my wife ended up having a terrible argument.In the ensuing argument she did say that she had returned the bracelet!!! This is the first I knew about this.She also feels that our daughter has been judging her unfairly and cannot see both sides of the picture and that both kids have come to see her as only their servant and nothing better.We eventually all three asked her what she wants us to do to put things right again. She said she just wants help and cooperation from all of us around the home and more consideration for her, her privacy and some time to herself instead of being tied down to the home, cooking, washing ironing and cleaning.Yes, I have expected too much from her, expected her to be totally honest with me and tell me where she was going all the time because I was so scared of what was happening and had happened. As she said to me last night I have put too much importance on my job and forgotten eveything else around me.I have been treating her like a child and know now that I have very possibly lost her for good through my pettiness and my blabbermouth. Believe it or not it was not intended to be this way but as they say in the classics "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"As she says, she has gone through utter hell these last six years here in Canada, has tried everything she can but just cannot do it anymore and feels more frustrated, tied down, restricted and oppressed than she ever did in South Africa even with all the violence and security issues to put up with there.So instead of listening to the advice I received, having some patience, and trying to get myself sorted out first, I have instead pushed things over the edge and completely torn my family and marriage apart - well done.Of course once she finds out that I have been discussing this with our good friends that will be the end of those friendships too because she will tell them the truth from her side. I should have just listened to her in the first place and moved down to where her mother is staying. As she says I have put my kids first in place of our marriage.I now have two weeks backlog of work to try and get on top of, including the three days I was off work last week, but that is my fault and no-one else's.

So sit your kids down and tell them that you and their mother were not able to balance your collective responsibilities to them and your marriage. Tell them it's not something that happens to everybody, but a mistake parents sometimes make. Tell them what has happened cannot be viewed as entirely her fault--that in relationships where two spouses are healthy and skilled, self-protective mechanisms lead to the marriage being repaired where it has problems, but sometimes problems can sneak up on people, especially when they're distracted and disrupted. Ask them to forgive her for the things that you told them she did, and to forgive you for telling them and for your part in the marital problems. Then see if you can take some of the pressure off your wife. She needs to, of course, get away from OM. But you don't do that with a crowbar. She has to decide to do that. One thing that can help her do that is if her kids don't hate her for what has happened. If she thinks that's happening, all she feels is that she has no one left and that you're the cause. The fact that there was a lot of pain over the weekend may or may not have permanent negative consequences. Just keep trying to do the best you can.

Kevan-Your story sounds exactly the same as mine only you and I are in a different role. I was the wayward spouse. I can totally related your story...It all happened on my B-Day as well of early last year. I can assured you that your wife affair has noting to do with sex or lack of or size (just like RWD suggested). RWD wrote: For women, it is usually because the other man (om) is meeting some other needs that make her feel romantic and then the romantic feeling turn to sex. I believe in exactly this phrase...I was there and I know it. Let me tell you a little bit about my story. I was married for 5 years. My affair only lasted for a month and after D-Day I quit and have no contact with the OM anymore. However, H stills think I see the OM. I just don't know how to explain to him and have him listen to me. He doesn't believe a word I said. After D-Day, I knew myself that I made a mistake and asked H for forgiveness...I was pregnant and on my knees begging him to forgive me but instead he pushes me away. He said the baby wasn't his. He yelled, screamed and verbally abuses me. I was so stressed that I had to go to surgery for labor. After labor, I asked him to come to hospital but he refused and still denys that it wasn't his baby. A few mos later, I had a DNA test done, low and behold... he was the biological father of my daughter. She is now almost 4 mos but he hasn't seen her at all and probably never will.I learnt my listen and know my mistake very well. I'm willing to do anything I mean anything for him to forgive me and have the family back. Unfortunately, he thinks I used the baby to want him back and that I don't love him. This is not true. I love him very much and I was happy to carry his baby eventhough he was never there with me througout my pregnancy. All he wanted now is divorce. His attorney called me last week to confirm my address. I was in tear and couldn't concentrate on my work. I just wished we can talk it out and start it slowly and see why, how, we can improve the marriage. None the less, he never wanted to rebuild the marriage. He said it was over since D-Day!. :-(The best thing to do is let her be her own self for awhile. Don't stay in her way and let her do whatever she wants right now. Sooner or later, she will wake up and realizes that she is throwing away her family. Meanwhile, just like other suggested...check out on Plan A and Plan B and how can you improve your communication with her. Good luck and keep us updated.kko

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kkeo: Kevan- Good luck and keep us updated.kko<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi Kkeo,I am really sorry to hear the outcome of yours, this is really sad and I do feel for you, and believe it or not I do feel for my wife and her feelings too, but the want for restoration must come from both sides...I asked her last night why she did not tell me that she had returned the stupid bracelet that the pig gave her for Christmas, she could not answer me. I wonder if she actually has returned it or given it to this divorcee buddy of hers for safekeeping. Maybe I should show some trust. I want to write a letter to this pigs wife and tell her that my wife has promised to break all contact with the grubby-pawed bum and if she knows anything to the contrary she is free to let me know. If she betrays my trust and the trust of our children again, she will be out of our home so fast she wont know what has happened. Hey, man, I wish I had the available money to buy her a plane ticket and get her out of here as soon as possible.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: Then see if you can take some of the pressure off your wife. She needs to, of course, get away from OM. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for the support, it really is appreciated, every little bit helps.Well, last night, two nights after our family argument, we both came home, both were happy and cheerful, kids were happy and smiling. Later in the evening I asked her if she had spoken to OM yet and got the reply "No, of course not, did you expect me to just phone him up and say its all over?............" Yes she did get a bit upset, but I just ignored her. At bedtime I went and kissed her goodnight, gave her a nice hug, told her I love her and understand that it must be very difficult to give up a friendship like this, but that there is no other way. Then I went and slept downstairs.Yes, I bought her flowers tonight, but got the remark "You've got to stop doing this all the time, thank you, they are lovely, but you must stop this now".Well, counselling is off because of the cost involved, $70 a time, so will just have to work on the notes I have been given. I am making a point of leaving some of them lying around every night.She is very sore tonight, the whole top of her back has gone into a muscle spasm and I am absolutely sure it is all tension, stress and anger that is doing it, nothing else. Most probably so wound up and scared to say goodbye to the OM.SO THE BIG QUESTION, how long do I wait for her now to make up her mind before she decides to tell OM it's over? Anyone got any suggestions?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: SO THE BIG QUESTION, how long do I wait for her now to make up her mind before she decides to tell OM it's over? Anyone got any suggestions?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Even Plan A has its limits. Dr. Harley recommends a time frame of about six months for plan A. By then, if you haven't seen significant progress, you might want to start thinking about plan B.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bumperii: Even Plan A has its limits. Dr. Harley recommends a time frame of about six months for plan A. By then, if you haven't seen significant progress, you might want to start thinking about plan B. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Another six months, after she has told my son, myself, my daughter that she will break it off, AND the affair was revealed SIX MONTHS AGO when my son caught them in the park. Somehow I dont think any three of us have the energy to know for another SIX MONTHS that he is still hanging around?I have put a lot of effort into this. I was the one willing to go for counselling, she wasnt, I was the one that voluntarily went to the doctor and asked to be put back onto anti-deps, I am the one that is praying daily for our marriage to work out, I am the one who has being giving her floe\wers every week, taking her out to dinner, telling her how much I love her, helping with the washing and ironing while she has been out with her girlfriends, helping the kids clean up their rooms, helping the kids with their homework, carting and carrying the kids. I am th eone that has been doing his utmost to change and improve the things that I "think" went wrong, because she still hasnt told me. I am the one that has been doing all the research on how to mend our marriage. All I have had from her is bad-manners, irritability, shouting at the kids, slapping my son up when he confronted her on Sunday night. I am the one that has been staying home over the weekends wondering what she is actually doing while she has been out shopping, dining, visiting with her friends "because she needs space".I have always done my best to accommodate her in everything we have done and have always asked her opinion about any decision and very often let her have her way and choice in the things we have done and bought.Yes, I know I have lost it a few times, but this has usually been when I have tried to start discussing things and wanting to work things out that she starts getting upset, short-tempered with me and walks away from me.Hey, I know I have many shortcomings too, I know I am not the perfect person, and that she works very hard at home and at work. She has ben the light of my life. She is a lovely person to everyone that meets her.There is a saying that is bandied around very much these days too "ONCE A CHEATER, ALWAYS A CHEATER" any comments on that one?????????????BUT, STILL, am I still now expected to just ignore this, make as if everything is just hunky-dorey and make-believe like he doesnt exist for another six months of my life, tell my kids dont worry everything is ok?

Does she have a history of having been abused in any way? Because if she can't hang in with a difficult discussion and comes back hard with anger, she may be "flooding" much more easily than a woman who hasn't been abused. And you are losing a lot of love bank balance whenever you have an angry outburst.

Hi Kevan I'm on my way out the door but just wanted to toss this out:You and wife should BOTH be putting the kids' needs first. If she wants to go back to SA and leave Canada, that's her decision. I know you still love her, but the marriage isn't a marriage, and had it not been so damaged by the affair and the years before where there wasn't enough emotional connection between the two of you, that would have made the difference.The kids aren't tiny. they have lives, friends, school, a home. They have already suffered enough. Your W has hurt your son irreparably and just wants him to "get overit". He's a teenager and he caught his mother behaving like a slut in a public place with her affair partner. The shame and humilitation of that! Ugh. She's selfish. They have a right to stability, to a peaceful home life. I feel for your son, he just wants to be able to study. I would want to leave home too in his place.Sorry. Sorry for your pain and for your kids' pain.------------------ Belle, Domestic Goddess

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: Does she have a history of having been abused in any way? Because if she can't hang in with a difficult discussion and comes back hard with anger, she may be "flooding" much more easily than a woman who hasn't been abused. And you are losing a lot of love bank balance whenever you have an angry outburst.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Her parenst got divorced when she was in her early teens, her mother walked out on him becasue he was having an affair. Her mother re-married a few years later to a real useless pig who treated her and her brother like dirt and didnt really want them around. her mother and step-father have never stopped fighting and arguing for as long as I can remember. She ran away from home once (for one night) when she was young because she could not stand this stepfather any more. When she got home her mother hit her so hard she gave her a black eye. Her and her brother were always made to feel like they were in the way. She was not allowed to have friends in their home after school. They had a swimming pool which they were not allowed to use without his permission. Her stepfather today still treats her mother like dirt. All he has wanted to do for years is give up working and expects us to support them. between the two of them they have wasted and squandered all the capital they have and are now living from month to month. When I met her she had a very strong inferiority complex which took me many years to prove to her was not the case. Her parents were so happy when she got married and all of a sudden were then her biggest friends. Her brother eventually got kicked out of the house when he was twenty because he tried to stand up for his rights. He has become a very outgoing hard-headed insensitive type of person and does not care whose feelings he hurts. Whenever we have had a confrontation of any sort, she has always been very defensive and tried to justify her faults by putting the blame on someone else. I have always done my best to boost her self-esteem.

Kevan, The "once a cheater, always a cheater" statement is usually a self fulfilling prophecy. If both parties don't work on what caused the problems in the first place, the problems way before the affair, then that can lead the WS spouse to again look to an affair to solve their problems. Also if the BS refuses to forgive, and puts pressure on the WS they may actually drive the WS away.And then there are those cases where the WS has a mental disorder (midlife crisis, depression, etc.) or character flaw.Bob

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by RWD: Kevan, If both parties don't work on what caused the problems in the first place, the problems way before the affair, Bob<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> i have always done my best to boost her morale and have many times ignored things which I felt were wrong because she always had this evry defensive attitude.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bellevue: She's selfish. They have a right to stability, to a peaceful home life. I feel for your son, he just wants to be able to study. I would want to leave home too in his place.Sorry. Sorry for your pain and for your kids' pain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Another day gone by and not a word about speaking to the OM. could see both my son and myself were not in a good mood tonight. Whenever someone is in a bad mood she has always assumed they are upset with her and immediately gets upset and mad, this must be her self-defense mechanism kicking in from when she was young and always treated badly by her stepfather. She went to the chiropractor for her back tonight, went shopping then picked me up from the bus stop at 7pm. Later she asked if I was upset because She had not cooked dinner and we had frozen TV dinners. I have NEVER been upset when she hasnt cooked dinner, I am a useless cook myself but am very easy when it comes to meals and have never demanded any meals from her. Seems like she has not only lost respect for me but also our children, after promising my son she would end it all with the OM. The children have been pretty happy this week, but I can see they are starting to realise its not cut and dry and all over. When I mentioned it to our 20-year-old daughter tonight she seemed quite shocked. I am seriously thinking of making THE decision this weekend, either she must leave or I will leave until she can make up her mind.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bellevue: You and wife should BOTH be putting the kids' needs first. If she wants to go back to SA and leave Canada, that's her decision.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Looks like everyone on this forum has had enough of me and my nonsense, but as my wife will not let me spend the money on counselling I will just have to keep typing until somebody answers: Three bank accounts: Trust Love Respect Trust badly depleted, 22 years worth gone, how do I just trust completely without being suspicious and wondering when it isnt final?Love - I feel its still quite full, (feel more disappointed than anything of the attitude towards counselling and healing) but know hers has depleted tremendously from the things I have done, anger, arguing, mistrust (here we go again).Respect - I do still respect her even though I have gone and told everyone - like you say was a call for help, but she does not see it that way, rather I have dishonoured her. As for her account - I can see she has very very little respect left for me, also obvious by her not wanting to give it up with him - lot of earning to do here for me.This is the most difficult thing I am dealing with, is trust, how do I restore trust again when things are still left unsaid and many questions unanswered which I want to ask but cant as she will go off the deep end and take it that I am loading guilt on her again? Things like when did it actually start, where did it happen how many times did IT truly happen, how many times in the park, where else, how many lunchtimes, how many times when she said she was at her divorcee friend, who else knows at the company she used to work for, what has she told him about me, why will she not let me see her cellphone account (says its her personal business), has she truly given back the bracelet or does her divorcee friend have it, why does she feel it was unimportant NOT to tell me that she doesnt have it anymore - it only came out when our son challenged her about it,why does she feel it is unimportant to tell us and the kids where she is after work or what time she will be home, is he still phoning her, will we be lovers again, will she truly go back to SA for good - influence from her mother when she gets there, a good chance if she stays there long enough she will find someone else there, why wont she come out with it and tell the kids, I am sure they are waiting for an answer after our son challenging her to give it up, he believed up until last weekend she has told him goodbye? Must I stop discussing it with the kids like she expects me to? Has something happened before that I am not aware of, what about that anonymous phone call I had from some woman in SA six months after we got here claiming my wife had had an affair with her husband before we left SA, although she denies this completely it is still in the back of my mind. This woman did say that they used to spend Sunday mornings together, which was a bit strange as we were at church most of the time except for the last month or so, but then she was only working half-day, but did fetch and carry the kids a lot, this does seem to discount a lot of it now that I write it all down but it does make you wonder, where there is smoke there is fire.Oh what a mess, this is going t take a long time to sort out. What do you do when you suggest in all honesty that she takes the day off from work and recuperate from her back problems because it really needs some rest and you get told "Dont tell me what to do, you not my boss"How much longer do I have to stand being ignored but when the kids walk by they get a hug? Three bank accounts: Trust Love Respect Trust badly depleted, 22 years worth gone, how do I just trust completely without being suspicious and wondering when it isnt final?Love - I feel its still quite full, (feel more disappointed than anything of the attitude towards counselling and healing) but know hers has depleted tremendously from the things I have done, anger, arguing, mistrust (here we go again).Respect - I do still respect her even though I have gone and told everyone - like you say was a call for help, but she does not see it that way, rather I have dishonoured her. As for her account - I can see she has very very little respect left for me, also obvious by her not wanting to give it up with him - lot of earning to do here for me.This is the most difficult thing I am dealing with, is trust, how do I restore trust again when things are still left unsaid and many questions unanswered which I want to ask but cant as she will go off the deep end and take it that I am loading guilt on her again? Things like when did it actually start, where did it happen how many times did IT truly happen, how many times in the park, where else, how many lunchtimes, how many times when she said she was at her divorcee friend, who else knows at the company she used to work for, what has she told him about me, why will she not let me see her cellphone account (says its her personal business), has she truly given back the bracelet or does her divorcee friend have it, why does she feel it was unimportant NOT to tell me that she doesnt have it anymore - it only came out when our son challenged her about it,why does she feel it is unimportant to tell us and the kids where she is after work or what time she will be home, is he still phoning her, will we be lovers again, will she truly go back to SA for good - influence from her mother when she gets there, a good chance if she stays there long enough she will find someone else there, why wont she come out with it and tell the kids, I am sure they are waiting for an answer after our son challenging her to give it up, he believed up until last weekend she has told him goodbye? Must I stop discussing it with the kids like she expects me to? Has something happened before that I am not aware of, what about that anonymous phone call I had from some woman in SA six months after we got here claiming my wife had had an affair with her husband before we left SA, although she denies this completely it is still in the back of my mind. This woman did say that they used to spend Sunday mornings together, which was a bit strange as we were at church most of the time except for the last month or so, but then she was only working half-day, but did fetch and carry the kids a lot, this does seem to discount a lot of it now that I write it all down but it does make you wonder, where there is smoke there is fire.Oh what a mess, this is going t take a long time to sort out. What do you do when you suggest in all honesty that she takes the day off from work and recuperate from her back problems because it really needs some rest and you get told "Dont tell me what to do, you not my boss"How much longer do I have to stand being ignored but when the kids walk by they get a hug?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: Trust badly depleted, 22 years worth gone, how do I just trust completely without being suspicious and wondering when it isnt final?This is the most difficult thing I am dealing with, is trust, how do I restore trust again when things are still left unsaid and many questions unanswered which I want to ask but cant as she will go off the deep end and take it that I am loading guilt on her again?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You can't restore your trust in your wife. Only she can do that. Once trust has been broken, it must be earned back, and that will take time. If your wife refuses to do anything to earn your trust, then, quite simply, you shouldn't trust her. Not even if she asks you to.You have an awful lot of questions, kevan, and I'm afraid I don't understand why you need them answered. It's no wonder that your wife feels that you are loading guilt on her. I don't think this is a productive approach.You want to leave the past behind and make a better future. So don't dwell on the past. Your wife is going to have a hard time letting go of it if you keep dredging it up yourself. Maybe some day the time will come when you can get those questions answered (if you still care when that day comes). But now is not the time.For now, you should focus on positive steps toward rebuilding your relationship. If you can get your wife to make suggestions, so much the better.But if your wife simply demands trust without earning it, and if she continues to be secretive, then you are not yet in a position to start rebuilding.At least, that's how I see it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume: You can't restore your trust in your wife. Only she can do that. Once trust has been broken, it must be earned back, and that will take time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for the encouragement, it is appreciated. Of course I do realise that I cannot ask a lot of these questions, but one thing I really would like to know is it really off between themand she just wont even talk about it at all, this is what hurts the most right now, its as if she either just wants to keep me in suspense or doesnt really want to do it.AM I wrong in expecting her to tell me if he has been phoning her still seen that she has not told him directly it is over, instead just avoding his calls like she says she is? This does not give me a good feeling at all, am I wrong in feeling this way? i am prepared to help ans support her if he is worrying her and she doesnt want him to call anymore, but that is not the feeling I get. I get the feeling that she either doesnt really want to end it, or she is too scared to approach him outright and tell him. I did suggest she write a letter to him, but she told me I must not tell her what to do. She will not even discuss it at all. She is of course very very mad with me that I have told her father and my sister about the affair, like I have cheated and betrayed her. She is of course in terrible pain at the moment with the pinched nerve in her neck, but is so stubborn she will not take a day off work to rest and recuperate and it is not getting better. This is also frustrating me incredibly, but she wil not listen to any advice at all from me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: AM I wrong in expecting her to tell me if he has been phoning her still seen that she has not told him directly it is over, instead just avoding his calls like she says she is? This does not give me a good feeling at all, am I wrong in feeling this way? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think you have every right to expect this, and that there would be something wrong with you if you didn't feel bad about this. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>i am prepared to help ans support her if he is worrying her and she doesnt want him to call anymore, but that is not the feeling I get. I get the feeling that she either doesnt really want to end it, or she is too scared to approach him outright and tell him. I did suggest she write a letter to him, but she told me I must not tell her what to do. She will not even discuss it at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your wife may not even understand her feelings herself. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She is of course very very mad with me that I have told her father and my sister about the affair, like I have cheated and betrayed her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In other words, she knows she's guilty, and she doesn't want to take the rap. You're the most convenient scapegoat.While telling everybody about your wife's sins is not a move calculated to make her feel good about you, some hurts are simply too great to be borne alone.Tradeoffs. I don't know whether it was wise to have said anything to these family members or not, but it's too late to do anything about it now, and I don't think I would feel too guilty about it if I were you. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She is of course in terrible pain at the moment with the pinched nerve in her neck, but is so stubborn she will not take a day off work to rest and recuperate and it is not getting better. This is also frustrating me incredibly, but she wil not listen to any advice at all from me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I wish I had something encouraging to say about this, but I don't. If you can't get your wife into counseling with you (be it with a therapist, a minister, or even a mentor), I don't know what you can do other than pray, hope, and wait.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume: I wish I had something encouraging to say about this, but I don't. If you can't get your wife into counseling with you (be it with a therapist, a minister, or even a mentor), I don't know what you can do other than pray, hope, and wait.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, pray, hope and wait - but for how long?Can I ask her about him? Am I at least allowed to do that?What about my kids, are they not also allowed to have an answer from her?I was reading a section out of a book by Dr. Dobson today, called "Marriage under fire" - a few photocopied pages which, believe it or not the divorcee girlfriend gave my wife months ago, before I discovered the affair (now, you tell me she doesnt know what has been going on too?), anyhow, all on "Tough Love" and even though you still love someone like this you should still keep your respect and dignity and let them go, and show them that you are not dependent on them, also on denial, putting blame on the injured party, suffocating someone, the injured party feeling unnecessary guilt, etc. (a bit strange why they were discussing it together? it should have been me that had that in the first place, I was the injured party, not her). When I approached her about it months ago, she said I must stop being stupid, her friend was just trying to help us ????? Now I wonder why, when I had not even by that time discovered the affair???? It has given me some hope and strength that I am not and will not be the loser through this all. The tough love principle just may be put in place if I do not get a clear answer quite soon.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: Yes, pray, hope and wait - but for how long?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is entirely up to you. There's a lot you have no control over, but you do have control over that. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Can I ask her about him? Am I at least allowed to do that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Of course you're allowed to ask. Personally, I think it would be entirely reasonable to demand an answer and deliver an ultimatum. Then again, perhaps you would get better results by telling her how terribly hurt you are that she won't talk to you about this, and then leaving her conscience to work. Or perhaps...I don't know. Without the benefit of hindsight, it's anybody's guess. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What about my kids, are they not also allowed to have an answer from her?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They are owed an answer, I think. But you don't have the power to collect the debt.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume: They are owed an answer, I think. But you don't have the power to collect the debt.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, I know that, but would there be any harm in prompting them or prompting her to come out with it instead of they are just left hanging in suspense? I think my son is actually also apprehensive of approaching the subject with her again in fear that she will lose it again and scream and shout and slap him up again, so thus as long as my wife and I are not fighting in front of them my son and daughter are quite happy to leave things as they are.I would really like to braoch the subject one night when we are all sitting down together for dinner, but that again will also make her mad as she has told me that in no ways must I involve the kids any more in this business. That my son has been damaged enough from what has happened. How can I do that when they have both been involved from the start?I know if I approach it again this weekend I will get it thrown in my face that: "Here we go, another weekend and the same nonsense starts all over again just like every weekend, you just want to make my weekends hell. Next weekend I am just going to make sure that I am not here at all, because I am getting tired of this"Of course everytime I get close to the subject, she gets upset and says I am just loading guilt onto her and I dont want to let it go, that I will never let her forget it for the rest of her life etc. etc.But she just doesnt want to come out herself and talk about it, tell me her feelings, so I thus gather that she either cannot say goodbye to him, doesnt want to, is just doing it to spite me and thus has lost all respect for me and feels she can do as she pleases and I must accept it at that!!!!!Communication is a two-way street, I have been doing my best all the time to try and tell her how much I love her, that I know it has been difficult, that I know I have made many mistakes and been angry, but I do love her very much despite my actions and I do want to resolve this all, but unless I approach it she never ever voluntarily talks about it to me and is not prepared to approach the subject at all.

Kevin.I mean this with all good intentions. It seems to me you need to relax. Stop trying to think so much.You are hurt/wounded. I understand with out a shadow of a doubt, and you want instant answers. This won't happen. Let it roll off you, like water off a ducks back. I was in the same boat. When I let go of the very same issue my life became so much clearer. You may know what the answers are already and you are to pent up on forcing the issue that the issue won't come to the sutface.Don't drive yourself crazy. Relax.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AgoodManInTexas: Kevin.Don't drive yourself crazy. Relax. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So what you are saying is that you just went on with life, ignored what was going on? You just let her go ahead and do what she wanted to do? Do I just ignore what is going on, the ill-temperedness, the bad moods, the secretiveness?

You can't ignore what is going on, but recognize that the ill-temperedness probably derives from guilt. Your wife is not happy with herself and she's taking it out on you and your children. Your attempts to force the issue are just giving her more of an opportunity to blame you for her self-induced distress.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume: You can't ignore what is going on, but recognize that the ill-temperedness probably derives from guilt. Your wife is not happy with herself and she's taking it out on you and your children. Your attempts to force the issue are just giving her more of an opportunity to blame you for her self-induced distress.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So, thus I must just go on with blinkers on, ignore it all and humour her as best I can and vent my frustrations with my support group of friends and family. (I have been trying this for quite a while you know but do find it very difficult when I feel I am just being walked over and taken advantage of !!! - ever get that feeling?)So, we will give it a go again (please I am not being sarcastis about this with you guys at all), but am just getting tired of having to rely on sleeping pills and a drink every night so that I can have a decent nights sleep without any recurring dreams of what has happened.

No. I'm not saying IGNORE it. Just like what GDP said. YOU are giving her the oppertunities. YOU are worked up about something she is/was/or could be doing. YOU are not getting sleep. YOU will make yourself sick. YOU won't let go of YOUR frustrations. YOU can't fix it, so YOU are expressing YOUR anger.I did all of this toooo. I felt so much better and was/am able to deal with everything much better now that I relaxed and let go of it. It put me back in control. I my case I set this item on the lords alter. Yes, even last night I woke up early from a bad dream about the affair my STBXW had, I got up, walked around the empty house, smoked a cigerette, and went back to bed. I slepted like a baby till the alarm went off, and haven't thought about it since. Yes it hurt, Yes she doesn't want to deal talk about it. everything you've said. But now I'm a much better person from the problem because I CHOOSE to let go. I CAN'T FIX THIS, so I stopped trying. Things I noticed when I did let go:My daughter is doing much, much better in school.I sleep much, much better. most of the time though the nite.I'm in much, much better physical shape.People are now calling me to go out and have fun.I've stopped talking so much about my problems and have started to talk about the events in my day.My daughter and I really talk about things now. and she no longer holds things in because she trusts me not to go off on her.All of my friends are still my friends.Good Woman are everywhere. (I noticed this one after I filed for D) ;-).I love my STBXW. That won't change. But I have to move on with what I know is the right thing to do. (In my inparticular case. It may not be required in your case. I don't know)I noticed that it always seems as if every action had an equal and opposite reaction. (Here again in MY case.) So I stopped. This is hers to figure out not mine. Something I figured out that has helped me at work and with my stress level is that " You can't fix it, if it doesn't want to be fixed." Here again my advise: 1.) Relax. 2.) Plan A, or B 3.) Absolutely no LB's. Period.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AgoodManInTexas: No. I'm not saying IGNORE it. Just like what GDP said. YOU are giving her the oppertunities. YOU are worked up about something she is/was/or could be doing. YOU are not getting sleep. YOU will make yourself sick. YOU won't let go of YOUR frustrations. YOU can't fix it, so YOU are expressing YOUR anger.Here again my advise: 1.) Relax. 2.) Plan A, or B 3.) Absolutely no LB's. Period.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hi guys,Here is a short extract from a posting I put on another discussion board:From me:If you think I am prepared to give up 22 years without a fight you must be crazy. If you think I am going to further damage my kids future, I am not prepared to.Yes, I did have a "discussion" with her on Saturday night and did point out to her that I am in the position to ask her to leave and go and do her own thing if she does not now adhere to what she has told me - that she has broken contact with him. Also that she is free to go if and when she wants to, but this will not stop me loving her and wanting her to be my partner, lover and wife, and that she is welcome back at any time, but with certain conditions attached. I also did tell her that I am fully prepared to go forward now that she has told mme that she has told him it is all over (even though I had to ASK her if she had done it, she didnt volunteer it freely) Response from: vanillabean1086I have been reading all your posts here and I feel I must give you my honest opinion...You seem to be putting ALL the blame on yourself....you get upset if she gets upset..YOU are not the blame for her affair...she CHOSE to have the affair...I am sorry to say that I feel that your wife is not truly trying to rebuild your marriage...I know how you feel about your 22 yrs...I have been married for over 23 yrs and the history we have built together over that time was worth trying to save BUT my H was very remorseful and has tried extremely hard to help me through the pain, anger, humilition and the pounding that my self esteem took. He has been trying to rebuild my trust in him...Your W MUST do anything and everything to help salvage what SHE destroyed. She is unwilling to cut off all times with OM (if you had to force this info out of her, she only told you what you wanted to hear so you would "get off her back"), she refuses to go to couseling and she doesn't even want to discuss it with you. She is upset that other people have found out (they would have sooner or later...that is a chance that she took). Your children will be ok if the marriage doesn't work out...you made mention that the children are already being affected by the fighting...the fighting caused by your W's affair and her unwillingness to help you through your pain. Take a stand with your W...she may be attracted to the "new" you. She will take advantage of the wishy washy you as long as you let her...she is hurting her children by her actions also...she seems to be in a "me, me, me" mode.I am sorry to be so harsh...I know you are in alot of pain and the last thing you need is someone telling you something that will cause you more pain....but I am trying to be honest with you...I know in my heart that I would never have stayed with my H even with a history of over 23 yrs if he didn't show me that he was sorry and tried everything in his power to make things "right". I think he respected me for my "stand up for myself" attitude....All my best, VB Me again:Am I being too soft on my wife, am I being too suspicious?Am I not now giving her a chance to see if we can put things together again?Yes, I know it has taken a long time to get to the point where there is a good chance of a complete breakoff from the OM.A response from some of you guys would really be appreciated. ------------------

Kevan,Welcome to MB, sorry I am late on a reply to you. I have just read your long thread and I'm going to try and comment on some of it.Here's a brief story of mine, I came here in Dec of 99. My husband left me on xmas day after 11 years together. I was devestated. I didn't think it was an affair. I put all the blame on myself at first. Then while I was here, over a few weeks, I learned some red flags and confronted him. On Jan 7, 00, I learned there was in fact an affair , as far as he admitted, an EA but later believed it to be a PA.I started in Plan A. I tried very hard. I got D papers on Valentine's day and shortly after that I snapped. I couldn't take the pressures of Plan A. Mainly because I didn't have anti depressants. Looking back, I think that would have helped me hold on longer.The next 6 months consisted of my ex being horrible to me and us fighting it out in court. We were divorced this past October right before our wedding anniversary. I am in a new relationship, which so far I have had no fights and I feel I am in love. I am scared to death right now.Well today, I had been feeling odd about my ex getting engaged. I've been feeling odd for 2 weeks now. I feel this is a terrible thing , I feel a lot of guilt towards my boyfriend for feeling bad that ex is remarrying. Its not that I want my exH back, I want to know why I failed so I don't do it again particularly now that I'm in love. I felt I needed some answers.So I called him. Remember that once a cheater always a cheater question? Well I talked to ex about a lot. What it felt like to be in his shoes for once. He told me that he felt terrible, but at the same time, he felt unhappy and had to follow the happiness he was feeling. He said that when I was on Plan A, Although I didnt' tell him it was literally called then, he refers to it as the time I was kissing his butt, that I made it so easy for him to walk all over me and that I kept allowing it. To where it became a habit almost because he thought I wanted him so bad he could do anything to me and I'd take it. He also said I seemed desperate. That turned him off to me, and towards the confident cool, OW. She appeared all the more better than his weak wife at the time.My point is this. Plan A is exhausting. I would recommend some anti depressants and counseling, no matter how you need to get them. It was also very easy to blame my now exH back then, but after today I found out that he did regret it as it was happening, and he appologized. I found that I was pushing him so hard that I pushed him away.THis may not be the case in all WS, but maybe you can find a medium in plan A where you are just being nice, but not so "weak", since she seems to be bothered by this. Looking back I kind of understand what my ex meant. I allowed him to treat me that way. Now onto a different topic, you did get some great advice from a lot of great people here. From a female's point of view, its not the size its how you use it, and also your other assets , dare I say hands, tongue etc. If you feel inadequate, I certainly don't think its good to tell your wife this is your fear. What good will it do? Be confident and try to be positive and strong when your around wife.Most importantly, over all of this, is the kids. I know how hard it is, but really they do need to come first. A call to the school would be a place to start. Let the kids talk to a school counselor, even the school can refer you out to someone good. The kids should begin this immediately. My kids have had and continue straight A'since their daddy left on xmas day. I credit that to counseling, and me not bad mouthing daddy to them. No matter what, those kids deserve to feel safe and that everything will be ok.Lastly, I admire your will to save the marriage. It takes a lot to hang on and there are a few great guys who have gone before you that have been in Plan A for a few years, or close to it. If you read some of their posts, you will see that they grew and changed thru this, and that there is hope to be "ok" with all this, even if it results in divorce.Good luck, Dana PS I got off subject on the once a cheater always a cheater. My ex used to try to cheat on OW with me after we seperated. (ick), but now he has vowed to do better with her. He is in fact doing for her everything he never did for me. He realizes now that he caused a big demise in the marriage, and sees how little something like doing dishes, can make a woman happy! If he had shown respect and we communicated, he has finally started to grow up. ALthough its too late for us, maybe he can become a better person and his goal is to not cheat again.

Kevan, I've been wondering how you were doing (I posted to you a week or so ago in General Questions). I'm sorry you're still in so much pain, but I have some advice for you - take it easy on yourself and try to calm down. I notice you keep beating yourself up over things you've asked of your wife . . . things that you're right to expect from her.It is NOT unreasonable to expect her to end all contact with OM, and I hope she has done it as she said. It's also not unreasonable to expect her to go to counseling with you to save your marriage. Has she told you why she's unwilling to go?Whatever discussions you have with her, please try not to have them in front of your children. There is already enough stress and tension in your household and your children should be spared that. They will eventually understand what is happening.I also think your W is VERY homesick, which could be adding to both your troubles.Kevan, please keep posting - it helps. When I was in crisis mode, I was on these boards every chance I had - everyone here saved my sanity. I know you love your W and want your marriage . . . keep working toward that goal without doing so much damage to YOU. {{{BIG HUG}}}}

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: It is NOT unreasonable to expect her to end all contact with OM, and I hope she has done it as she said. It's also not unreasonable to expect her to go to counseling with you to save your marriage. Has she told you why she's unwilling to go? {{{BIG HUG}}}}<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks guys, so much.Hey, one day up, one day down so it goes.Why wont she go to counselling, she says she doesnt see how any starnger could help solve these types of problems, especially her emotions and her homesickness and wants to go back to SA. Sometimes I think she is just scared of hearing reality from someone else.Yes, I also really hope too that she is telling me the truth and has broken off all contact with OM.OK, as you say above, I must not get to the position of grovelling, I know that, I have done enough of that too in the last few months. Thats also why I have explained to her that I do have my rights in asking her to leave if she doesnt do her part too. One big mistake I did make a few weeks ago, in a moment of weakness and confusion after going thru Plan A/B and trying to get thru to her that we need full cooperation for this to work is that I do know there are things that I have to put right myself and I cannot demand from her that she break off any of her relationships until I can get myself stabilized. She has of course taken this the wrong way and has thrown it back in my face when I insisted that they break it off, after my sons insistence too. somehow I think she still does not see the actual purpose of breaking off all contact with him.You know, one day I read good advice from these boards, then I hear advice from someone who has ended up divorecd and it sends me on a downer again.Susie - thanks so much for the positive support and the big hugs.Hey, I said to my wife last night that I fought for her once 24 years ago and I am prepared to do it all over again if I have to (not that I havent been doing this up to now) - this at least brought a smile to her face.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: I also think your W is VERY homesick, which could be adding to both your troubles.Kevan, please keep posting - it helps. When I was in crisis mode, I was on these boards every chance I had - everyone here saved my sanity. I know you love your W and want your marriage . . . keep working toward that goal without doing so much damage to YOU. {{{BIG HUG}}}}<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, she is very homesick, extremely so, which has been a problem ever since we got here, she has just not accepted the fact that this is our new life and has too many emotional ties back in South Africa, even though she knows the country is falling apart.Although I do still not see this as any reason for going off and having an affair with someone, especially seeing that he is a Canadian too - seems a bit ironic doesnt it?But, at the same time I know I cannot take my kids back there, it would be like taking everything away from them I have ever given them in life.I am thus torn between my children and my wifes feelings and emotions. She has already told me that the kids mean more to me than she does.It is not that she is completely miserable here, we have made good friends, are actually living a better life here, but she just cannot accept it and hates the colder weather here and that we dont have the beautiful home we had there.Anyhow, besides the above, HOW HOW do I get rid of these suspicions and uncertainty and unsureness now that she is not telling me the whole truth, especially about her feelings towards me and contact with the OM. Yes I know I still keep on calling him a pig and so on, and dont think I will ever change my views towards him for doing his best to pull us apart. But I do also know that she wanted to climb into bed with him even before he was aware of it, so that doesnt make me feel any better either. She sees him as a friend, but what good friend does his best to pull someone's marriage apart?As someone earlier said about their experience of PLAN A and ending up grovelling in fornt of their partner.WHERE do you draw the line between showing your partner that you love them and care for them and still want them without it looking like you are grovelling before them and will do anything to get them to stay - is this not a thin line? This you have to try and do without upsetting them when you feel that they are being unfair to you and expecting you to just forget about everything and whenever you approach them with something that you feel they are doing to you that you dont like - bad temperedness, irritability, impatience and they just tell you to stop being so ridiculous and oversensitive.HOW HOW HOW

Kevan, you're right . . . being homesick is no excuse for having an affair. I don't know how long you've been here - if it hasn't been very long it would make sense that she misses her home. However, I agree with you that it doesn't make sense to uproot your children to go back, especially in view of the political climate there, among other things. Maybe she should go back by herself for a visit - being without you and the children might give her a different perspective.Getting rid of suspicions won't happen overnight. You need, and DESERVE, confirmation that she is no longer in contact with OM. If you need to do a bit of checking on your own, so be it. My H did a LOT of checking on me during my A and I don't blame him one bit - he had a right to know what was going on.BTW, there's no point in calling OM a pig, even if that's what you think of him. Name calling will make her defensive of him. I know it's difficult for you, knowing that she felt desire for someone else - it's natural to feel threatened. This is something you should discuss with your counselor. My H is having the same issue, wondering how I could have been with someone else.And you can show your W you love her without groveling. Just be there for her, talk to her (if she's willing), and show her that you're committed to her and your marriage. I get the feeling that it's difficult for you and your W to talk, but that's what you need to do. Maybe in time she'll consider going to counseling with you. In the meantime, keep going for YOURSELF. You need to stay strong.I wish you strength and courage, Kevan. Hang in there!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: I wish you strength and courage, Kevan. Hang in there!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks again Suzie, your encouragement does really help.Someone has said that maybe I should print out and give her some of these replies to read, but I know that NO WAYS could I right now even let her know that I have been posting on these boards - she will go ballistic.Hoooo boy am I in trouble today. I was invited out for drinks last night by my work colleagues. I phoned her and told her before I left work last night. She said thats fine as she was going to have drinks with the people at her work anyhow. She phoned me around 8pm as we were still in the pub. She was not too happy as she heard me say to the people I was with "its my wife on the phone". Anyhow we had a good time and some guys had too much to drink. I only got home at about 2am. I had to escort one of the guys home as he fell asleep on the bus and couldnt remember how to get home, so I walked him home, then his wife drove me home. Se she says to me this morning, really mad "so, whats good for the gander is not good for the goose, hey". After me bugging her and checking her everytime she goes out then I go and do something like this and do not even phone her to tell her where I am......... So I am really in the dogbox today, no amount of apologizing is helping, even told her that I do realize that I treated her with disrespect and I am very sorry about it, I DO NOT STAY OUT LATE LIKE THIS OFTEN> She has gone out shopping for the afternoon in not a very good mood......

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: I don't know how long you've been here - if it hasn't been very long it would make sense that she misses her home...........Getting rid of suspicions won't happen overnight. You need, and DESERVE, confirmation that she is no longer in contact with OM. If you need to do a bit of checking on your own, so be it. My H did a LOT of checking on me during my A and I don't blame him one bit - he had a right to know what was going on. And you can show your W you love her without groveling. Just be there for her, talk to her (if she's willing), and show her that you're committed to her and your marriage. I get the feeling that it's difficult for you and your W to talk, but that's what you need to do. Maybe in time she'll consider going to counseling with you. In the meantime, keep going for YOURSELF. You need to stay strong.I wish you strength and courage, Kevan. Hang in there!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>WE have been in Canada close on six years now, my wife has been back once to visit her parents and friends. I wanted her to go last year, but she insisted we all have a holiday to Mexico instaed. I feel it would have been much more worthwhile for her to go back instead of the one week we had in Mexico together as a family. She is just as homesick now as when we arrived, and keeps on throwing this up in my face.SUSPICIONS - well here is another one. I took our car in to get the windshield replaced Saturday morning, of course I was really in trouble after Friday night. She pushed off shopping to the mall on Saturday as I said before. When the car was ready I had to catch two buses to go and collect it. The first bus stops outside the mall. I had 30 minutes between buses so went for a walk through the mall. I bumped into my wife in one of the shops. The first thing she said, out loud "Oh, so you are tracking me down again, hey" - can you imagine how good this made me feel. The shop attendant looked at me and gave me a real dirty look. Anyhow so I pushed off, feeling very frustrated, as no matter how much I try and explain to her, she just will not see it from my point of view and does not believe a word I say. I collected the car and went back to the mall to pick up my wife, and we stopped and had a burger in the food-court. I said to her, did she see the dirty look that the shop attendant gave me earlier when she came out with her comment, she just looked away and shrugged her shoulders. Yes, I do feel like I am the one grovelling all the time and trying to win her favor, but just get irritability and impatience dumped on me. I said to her last night, it would really make a big difference if I would just receive a bit of loving and intimacy, a little hug now and then and maybe a kiss - she just looked at me and said "You just dont get the picture do you?". How do you think I feel when it just seems like I have had to coerce her into all these decisions concerning us and then still get treated like this, although she says she does love me................... She does not seem to realize that I do have the right to know what is going on and just wants me to forget everything that has happened and let her be. I wonder if she would ever consider counselling, she is much too proud a person to admit she needs help. So this morning, I tried to get a hug again and got rebuffed. She was in a hurry to go back to the mall to exchange some clothes she bought for our son. I was getting dressed and she wanted another cup of coffee. I didnt get around to making it before she was ready to leave. When she got in the car with my son I could see she was mad at me again and I asked her what was wrong - to which she answered - "Well, I did want another cup of coffee before I went, but dont worry about me, I will get one at the mall" - This is just a small example of what I am having to put up with. Oh, by the way i just got a phone call from her now saying she is on her way home from the mall and wants to apologize about getting upset with me over the coffee...............AM I BEING WRONG IN THE WAY I AM FEELING?She tells me she loves me, she is sorry for the grief she has caused, but at the same time I feel very little forthcoming, everything I feel has been from my sdie, its me that wants to talk thing s out, work things out and have to push the issue all the time - this does not give me very much confidence in solving these issues.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: Kevan, you're right . . . being homesick is no excuse for having an affair. Getting rid of suspicions won't happen overnight. You need, and DESERVE, confirmation that she is no longer in contact with OM. If you need to do a bit of checking on your own, so be it. My H did a LOT of checking on me during my A and I don't blame him one bit - he had a right to know what was going on. I wish you strength and courage, Kevan. Hang in there!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, welll this is a good one. I treid to talk to her again tonight and tell her about my feelings and how I could really do with some loving and a bit of intimacy as I am just feeling so frustrated constantly as it does not feel like she wants to be close to me. She says its because of all that has happened and the THINGS I HAVE DONE. I asked her what she means, she says its because I have been constantly following her, tracking her and checking up on her.SHE SAYS THAT I AM HARASSING HER, it is the same as harassment, I do not have the right to do this to her.I asked her then if I do not have the right to know what is going on in my marriage, does she not realize that I still have my fears and concerns and frustrations.IS SHE RIGHT OR AM I RIGHT?Suzie, as you say your husband did a lot of checking up on you, how did you feel about this? Am I overstepping my boundaries?She is also mad because she found an article that I printed off concerning another couple that a similar thing had happened where the woman had been having sex with a man that was much better endowed than her husband and the woman felt that she was now stretched and her husband was now not big enough for her - of course the reply ot this article was that the woman should not feel this way ans should do some exercises to tighten up her vaginal muscles. My wife is now very offended about this article, but of course has not said anything about it for weeks, she found it a long time ago but has never approached me about it....................As much as I try and tell her that this did worry me and I am sorry, it still does worry me a bit, she just takes it personal and doesnt want to seem to see it from my side too...How I wish she would just be more open and speak to me instead of me having to draw it out of her all the time.......How do I stop being such a horrible person to her?I am slowly losing my mind.................please help me out here.

Kevan, I was resentful of my H checking up on me while I was having the A and I was defensive about everything. Once the A was over, I could see clearly why he did what he did. He wanted to know what was going on and I denied EVERYTHING. Every question he asked me was met with an angry response. I, like your W, accused him of harrassing me, interrogating me, and treating me like a child. These are all defense mechanisms.Why do you keep saying that you're a terrible person? Kevan, you have a right to expect the truth from your W. She doesn't seem to be able to see that right now, which is one good reason for getting some counseling.BTW, some of your W's behavior indicates (to me, anyway) that she's feeling guilty. Guilt always seems to lead to anger (and defensiveness). And if she feels guilty over what she's done, that's good - feeling guilt means that a person DOES know the difference between right and wrong.Another thing . . . physical intimacy will be difficult, even nonexistent, if your W is in withdrawal. She also seems to be harboring some resentments over the past, and these issues will need to be dealt with.As far as your concern over your physical attributes, don't worry. It doesn't matter whether a musician has a violin or a cello . . . what matters is the music.So stop being so hard on yourself. You're not doing anything wrong - like any other BS, you want answers. I'll say a prayer for you and your W. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: Kevan, I was resentful of my H checking up on me while I was having the A and I was defensive about everything. Once the A was over, I could see clearly why he did what he did. So stop being so hard on yourself. You're not doing anything wrong - like any other BS, you want answers. I'll say a prayer for you and your W. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Suzie, youjust dont know what a help you are to me right now. having the opportunity to chat with someone who has been in a very similar situation but from the other party is helping tremendously.I suppose I am also maybe being over-anxious to get things sorted out, but it has now been over 7 months and I dont feel there has been much progress and I just feel like there is not much effort from her side, I have to do all the pushing.All she says is that I am not looking at things from her point of view and that she is hurt and cannot get close to me because of EVERYTHING that has happened. I asked her then to spell it out for me, is it because of what she has done, what I did before the affair, or what I have done after the affair. She just says it is EVERYTHING that has happened.......................I just feel over-frustrated.No, I have stopped going to counselling, as this is just making her more angry.No, she is not prepared in the least to go for counselling.THIS IS SOME ADVICE I HAVE RECENTLY GOT FROM ANOTHER BULLETIN BOARD:----------------------------------------------------------- "Her saying that you don't get the picture speaks volumes. SHe appears to be looking for reasons to leave. The incident at the mall, the coffee, lack of itimacy. All of these are ways to make you look unfavorable to her. This may be a way to make leaving easier for her. Of course she would regret it years later, but that means nothing to you. A ask you again, Ask her if she wants to separate. I don't want to get in your business, but I seems that deep in your subconscience, you know it's not the way you want it to be. Of course, every story has two sides and I have not heard hers. However, your tip toeing around the real problems. I think its time to get frank with her. Ask her if she wants to end it. She sounds like a strong willed person and I am not passing any judgement on her. But she is away from home, I don't know where you guys met, but maybe the winds have changed direction for her. Maybe she doesn't feel it anymore. I don't know the true. Unfortunetly, neither do you. You have to probe for the answers. You've been married for 22 years, and the possiblity of begin single has to be frightening. But, it IS A REALITY. It may happen. 67% of infidelity cases end in divorce. You love her, she may love you. But that doesn't mean that she burns for you anymore. You must know that before something worse happens. You find her in bed with the jerk, or friends catch her somewhere, or you son finds out. He will then be mad a both of you. The key is asking the tough questions. You must be stronger than you have ever been in your life. This is no time to run into a shell. She would see that and turn away from you more. Moreover, your streghth spark a new fire in the relationship. Right now, she sees you running around and flowering her. She may hate that. "This advice above is quite contrary to what I have been getting from all you good people here and I am not sure how to take this.Can someone give me some comments on this?------------------------------------------------------------Suzie I owe you A VERY BIG HUGI have said to her quite a few times I am going to move out, to which she gets upset and offended and says I am walking out on her. She also says where am I going to go, and it will just cost too much financially.

Kevan, why is the fact that YOU want counseling upsetting your W? If she doesn't want to go, there's not much you can do . . . but I don't understand her objection to you trying to get help for yourself. It's possible that she doesn't want the counselor to open your eyes, but you need to stay strong and get help for YOU. You won't be much good to yourself, your children or your W if you're falling apart.At this point maybe what you should do is go to your W, tell her you love her and want it to work, and ask her what she wants. This does NOT mean groveling or letting her walk all over you. BTW, when she says she's upset with you for EVERYTHING and then won't get specific, it sounds like a smoke screen to me (as if she is looking for excuses).It sounds to me that she really doesn't want you to leave, in spite of the problems that exist in the marriage. She could be feeling a lot of guilt and doesn't know how to make her way back to you.One thing you will need a lot of is PATIENCE. Things will not get fixed overnight and they will not fix themselves. This is going to take time and work. Only you can decide if it's worth it. It seems to me that you think it is.Hopefully you'll get more advice than just mine, but know that everyone here is pulling for you! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: Kevan, why is the fact that YOU want counseling upsetting your W? If she doesn't want to go, there's not much you can do . . . but I don't understand her objection to you trying to get help for yourself. It's possible that she doesn't want the counselor to open your eyes, but you need to stay strong and get help for YOU. You won't be much good to yourself, your children or your W if you're falling apart.At this point maybe what you should do is go to your W, tell her you love her and want it to work, and ask her what she wants. This does NOT mean groveling or letting her walk all over you. BTW, when she says she's upset with you for EVERYTHING and then won't get specific, it sounds like a smoke screen to me (as if she is looking for excuses).It sounds to me that she really doesn't want you to leave, in spite of the problems that exist in the marriage. She could be feeling a lot of guilt and doesn't know how to make her way back to you.One thing you will need a lot of is PATIENCE. Things will not get fixed overnight and they will not fix themselves. This is going to take time and work. Only you can decide if it's worth it. It seems to me that you think it is.Hopefully you'll get more advice than just mine, but know that everyone here is pulling for you! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>She just feels that counselling is a waste of money and cannot see how a stranger can sort any of these problems out.I have told her MANY times that I love her AND I want things to work out AND I do still want her otherwise I would have left or told her to get out along time ago. I have asked her more than once if she can tell me what she wants and what she wants to do with her life - she says she NEEDS TIME and JUST DOESNT KNOW RIGHT NOW. - but she has been saying this for months.By EVERYTHING I asked her again last night what she means, is it me, the way I have handled things, does she not want me anymore, does she want someone else - she says, : My hounding her..... My tracking her..... My checking up on her..... She has to try and sort out what she is feeling.....She is upset about the article I left concerning the penis size etc. I left lying around.... how do I think she feels that I am looking at things like this (I told her that she doesnt want to talk these things out with me so I have to try and get what info and support I can from other sources)She doesnt know why I dont just accept that she is there at home, is that not enough... (Some of this is my own interpretation and the facial reaction I get when I ask her things)I ask her what does she actually want from me, how must I treat her, what must I do to make it better - she says she doesnt feel she needs to COACH me. I must just stop bugging her and brining things up like this continuously...... I must just be myself - HOW DO I DO THIS as when I was "MYSELF" she went running around with another man?Making her way back to me - as far as I am concerned is just opening her arms to me, giving me a hug and kiss now and then and not so much bitterness in her voice and some of her actions. I have told her this many many times. I got more intimacy and warmth out of her while she was still having the affair than what I am getting now, but if I mention this to her I will just be told that I am just throwing the affair in her face and making her feel bad again.One thing I must say I do really appreciate all YOUR patience with me on this. Hey, I really try hard, days on end to be extra nice to her, help her wherever I can around the house, but still just get so much grumpiness and irritableness in return most of the time, that eventually it just gets too much. I said to her on Sunday, take it easy, dont worry about cooking a big meal, she of course ignored me, then just got more upset when it took up much of her afternoon and the meal was only ready at 3pm, then the kids were not there to join us for lunch which made her more mad - "The kids just dontcare and I am just wasting so much food, why do I even bother cooking, they just do as they like, when are you going to discipline them more"I cant seem to win whichever way I turn.I had a terrible hangover on Saturday (yes, I know it was my own fault and stupididty from the night before), she was as mad as a snake with me. But I still did all the ironing for her, took the car in for the windshield, caught the bus home, vacuumed the house - then got screamed at and told that I had better not touch her clothes, she will iron her own things.

From what you've just posted, I think your W is in major withdrawal. If you're certain that she has broken off all contact with OM, that's probably what it is. Or maybe he was the one who ended it???A WS in withdrawal isn't fun to be around. They're moody, depressed, irritable (does this sound familiar?), and resentful of the fact that the A is over. The best you can do right now is assure you that you love her, but don't pressure too much. Withdrawal is an ugly time for all concerned.Something to think about . . . if you continue to work on YOU, you'll begin to feel better about yourself and will be happier. This could get your W's attention and make her wonder why you're doing so much better. Hey, it might just wake her up!You said your W doesn't think a "stranger" can help with your problems . . . that is SO not true. Kevan, if it weren't for the counselor I don't know WHERE my H and I would be right now.I wish you patience, Kevan. I hope your W wakes up before it's too late . . . she'll be losing a very special man who loves her very much.{{{{{{ANOTHER HUG}}}}}} (I think you need one)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: From what you've just posted, I think your W is in major withdrawal. If you're certain that she has broken off all contact with OM, that's probably what it is. Or maybe he was the one who ended it???A WS in withdrawal isn't fun to be around. They're moody, depressed, irritable (does this sound familiar?), and resentful of the fact that the A is over. The best you can do right now is assure you that you love her, but don't pressure too much. Withdrawal is an ugly time for all concerned.Something to think about . . . if you continue to work on YOU, you'll begin to feel better about yourself and will be happier. This could get your W's attention and make her wonder why you're doing so much better. Hey, it might just wake her up!You said your W doesn't think a "stranger" can help with your problems . . . that is SO not true. Kevan, if it weren't for the counselor I don't know WHERE my H and I would be right now.I wish you patience, Kevan. I hope your W wakes up before it's too late . . . she'll be losing a very special man who loves her very much.{{{{{{ANOTHER HUG}}}}}} (I think you need one)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Naaahhh, I am sure it is just me being so neurotic and blowing things out of proportion.Very possible she is in withdrawal ( I hope so anyhow. Makes it a bit difficult when she will not tell me exactly how she is feeling).Of course I am not sure yet whether she has broken off all contact with OM creep. I onlly get some type of reassurance from her if I ask her and pressure her into telling me something. She never volunteers any information.Yes, I am working on me all the time, trying to be as happy around her as I can, TRYING to ignore the bad moods.If I told her once, I told her at least a dozen times this weekend how much she means to me, how attractive she is looking (which she is), how beautiful her big blue eyes are, how lovely her hairstyle is looking. Once or twice I did get a thankyou, but most of the time just a "Dont talk nonsense, its not true"Suzie - KEEP UP THOSE HUGS, THANKYOU, I LOVE HUGS EVEN FROM STRANGERS (MIND YOU YOU ARE NOT A STRANGER ANY MORE - YOUR HUSBAND IS A VERY VERY FORTUNATE AND BLESSED MAN, TELL HIM THAT FROM ME)LOTS OF HUGS FOR BOTH OF YOU FROM THIS SIDE TOO.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: A WS in withdrawal isn't fun to be around. They're moody, depressed, irritable (does this sound familiar?), and resentful of the fact that the A is over. The best you can do right now is assure you that you love her, but don't pressure too much. Withdrawal is an ugly time for all concerned. {{{{{{ANOTHER HUG}}}}}} (I think you need one)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your comments and help really is appreciated in every way, I am gaining strength daily from these Bulletin/Discussion Boards:I was approached with a 'luvly' one last night.After dinner my wife tells me that she was chatting to a mutual friend of ours where she works, he asked her how our weekend went and she said "Pretty well even after Kevan going out with his workmates until 2am on Friday".She says our friend seemed quite taken aback by this and he wanted to know (jokingly), "So, did he have glitter on his face when he came home" implying that we had been to a strip-joint or something of the likes. I could see immediately that she was taking a 'dig' at me about this. In other words, the tables are now turned and she has something to hold against me. I explained to her nicely that believe it or not we were accompanied by work colleagues and definitely did not go to such a place to which she answered "Yeah, right, tell me another one, do you really want be to believe that you and that good work-friend of yours didnt end up at one of those places". HEY, I DO NOT FREQUENT THESE TYPES OF ESTABLISHMENTS, YES, I'VE BEEN THERE ONCE OR TWICE. So, the tables are now turned and it is now my chance to get sensitive about being reminded about something naughty that I have done (and not be trusted by what I say) ..... I reminded her of this at bedtime last night, to which she just got upset and said, whats wrong with you, it was meant as a joke. Yeah-right it definitely did not sound like a joke at dinnertime.Oversensitive??????????

Kevin, I haven't followed your story that closely, but in reading your last few posts, it sounds like you are trying too hard and trying to do things yourself.Go back to the home page of marriagebuilders and read up on Plan A. If your w feels you are checking up on her and harrassing her, guess what, you are! Also trying to "educate" the WS is a huge lovebuster, I know, I did thre same thing. You need to make her feel safe so that she wants to come back to you. Does it sound like she feels safe now?????? I would recommend going to counseling. It can help you understand you and what you need to improve yourself in terms of relationships. Tell w you are doing it for you, not for her, not for the marriage, but for you.The advice to have a frank discussion about her leaving seems to me to be the wrong one. It will get turned around so that you are throwing her out. You have to Plan A.Hang in,Bob

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by RWD: Kevin, I haven't followed your story that closely, but in reading your last few posts, it sounds like you are trying too hard and trying to do things yourself.Hang in,Bob<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hi Bob,Please read it all, see what has happened, what I have had to face up to...You just dont know how I have tried to bend over backwards to show her that I still love her.SHE WILL NOT LET ME GO TO COUNSELLING ANYMORE, I HAVE BEEN TO THREE SESSIONS TO AID ME WITH MY DEPRESSION, NOW SHE JUST GETS MAD IF I EVEN MENTION IT. Like she has been so open with me about everything?Like she has been loving to me and openly discusses everything?Like she has openly told me the truth about everything?Like she willingly just stopped seeing him of her own will so that she could put everything into restoring our marriage?Like she is showing me her cellfone account, instead of hiding it away?Sorry to be so cynical, its just the way I feel at the moment after trying everything I can in the book, telling her constantly how much I love her, buying her flowers, taking her out to dinner, doing the ironing, doing the vacuuming even with a hangover, spending half my day shuttling around on buses to drop off and pick up her car from the AutoGlass shop on Saturday while she was out shopping, then picking her up afterwards, then practically getting ignored the rest of the weekend when looking for some affection.Hey, I have NEVER stopped showing her affection right through it all.......Then getting it thrown in my face on Monday night.Hey, sorry I am also just human and how much must one person take?READ IT ALL BOB!!!!!!!!!!!!Now I am being made to be the baddie...........yeah this feels good.

Kevan, your W's reaction to your going out for a few drinks is typical of someone who wants to focus the attention elsewhere. If she makes an issue of your night out, she doesn't have to look at what's going on with her, does she?I noticed in your post to Bob that your W hides her cell phone bill . . . that's not a good sign. I did exactly the same thing during my A. In fact, I had the bill sent to my office. I think you need to determine if she is still in contact with OM. I also think you should trust your gut instincts - they are rarely wrong.Another thing that troubles me is that you say she won't "let" you go to counseling anymore. Now what is that all about? Kevan, you need to go - whether she accompanies you or not and whether she likes it or not. It's important for you to sort things out in your own mind with the help of an objective third party. Only then will you be clear about what needs to be done to save your marriage.Although you can't control what your W does at this point, you can control what YOU do and how you react. Right now you have to show your W that you are strong. BTW, have you read SAA and HNHN? If you haven't, please get them and READ, READ, READ. My H is currently reading SAA and is gaining some valuable insight into the disastrous situation that I created.I wish there was something more that I could say to you. Just know that I'm here, and so are a lot of other people who can at least listen and understand where you're coming from.{{{{{Hugs}}}}}}

Kevan,I'm not trying to make you out as a baddie. I am trying to help you. To me, it seems like you are trying too hard. I went thru alot of the same things.After discovery, wife and I went to the kids school function. She would not look at me or sit near me, and wouldn't let me touch her. The next nite we went out to dinner and I gave her her space. She then threw it back in my face, saying that I hadn't changed that I still couldn't show her affection.You really have to throw all reason out when dealing with a person in the "fog." You also have to put your needs to the side. For how long, I don't know.Winning your wife back is a long, hard battle, you have to hang in and make a lot of sacrifices.Hang in.Bob

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by RWD: Kevan,I'm not trying to make you out as a baddie. I am trying to help you. To me, it seems like you are trying too hard. I went thru alot of the same things.After discovery, wife and I went to the kids school function. She would not look at me or sit near me, and wouldn't let me touch her. The next nite we went out to dinner and I gave her her space. She then threw it back in my face, saying that I hadn't changed that I still couldn't show her affection.You really have to throw all reason out when dealing with a person in the "fog." You also have to put your needs to the side. For how long, I don't know.Winning your wife back is a long, hard battle, you have to hang in and make a lot of sacrifices.Hang in.Bob<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks Bob, I know all you guys are really doing your best to help me and I do appreciate it - I just get so frustrated every now and then and feel I've got to let go of it somehow - so rather I write than I moan or shout.I am not plannng to separate at all right now, but am willing to work this through without that happening because contrary to popular belief I stll love my wife tremendously and my children even more, who have expressed that they do not want us to separate - right now I do feel it will cause them more grief and upset (16 years old and 10 years old) than if we stay and try and work this out.My biggest difficulty is trying to deal with my daily emotions, while my wife is not willing to discuss things or try and see from my point of view what I am feeling and what MY NEEDS are too.A good example - last night my wife phoned me from her cellphone at 6pm (she gets off work at 4:30) she was not home from work yet. She was in a horrible mood and had a bad day at work. She wanted to know if I was on my way home or where. I was on the bus. When we got home I said to her (not demandingly either, but in a friendly way), "Where did you go after work today, love?" Straight away she took offense and said "What, are you checking up on me again, cant you just stop this nonsense, do I have to tell you everything I do?" These days I cannot ask her anything personal, cannot ask her anything about what she is doing or where she is going or has been - then she still expects me to trust her again when she knows I am feeling uneasy.This is tearing me apart.I need some loving too, but it is always me that has to tell her how much I love her, me that asks for a kiss, me that asks for a hug. She tells me she loves me, but has never once in months come up and given me a hug, given me a kiss, voluntarily said I love you. - How the hell am I supposed to feel about this. I spoke to her this weekend and told her I would also like to feel some intimacy from her - she just said "How do you expect me to do that after EVERYTHING that has happened? You just dont get the picture. I have mentioned to her once or twice that I am just going to have to move out - to which she has answered, "Oh, thats nice, now you are just going to run away" But yet when I approach her about what has happened and that I would really like to sort these things out she often says, "I have had enough, why cant you just let it go, I cant live like this anymore, I am going to move out".This feels like the roller-coaster to hell. - Sorry thats just the way I am feeling this week - even with taking the anti-deps.So, she went off to the shop a few minutes ago, she is very very tired, I offered to go for her, but no she insisted, even in the rain. And, guess what she has taken her cellphone with her - makes me feel confident, hey, why would she want to take her cellphone with when the shop is 5 minutes walk next door? Am I supposed to just ignore these actions as if nothing is going on behind my back?Or am I just getting neurotic - someone tell me?I went to the doctor again tonight - had no way of getting home, she had to come pick me up - I could see she was not happy abouut this - anyhow the doctor has increased my anti-dep dosage.Must I still have confidence that she is not sneaking around behind my back, when the cellphone goes everywhere. If I go next door to the shop and pick up my cellphone she asks me what am I taking that to the shop for?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by RWD: Kevan,You really have to throw all reason out when dealing with a person in the "fog." You also have to put your needs to the side. For how long, I don't know.Hang in.Bob<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So, I was wrong, she phoned this horrible divorcee girlfriend of hers while she was at the shop (only, that I know of anyhow) although I do not trust that women anyhow as I have said before.How do you put any credibility in a woman that goes to church on weekends and quotes Christianity, then goes to a Fortune-Teller and Tarot-CArd reader to find out what is happening in her life?Anyhow I suppose I am just being over-suspicious?I mentioned to my wife just now, that this depression is a bugger to fight, just when you feeling good, this cloud comes over you and knocks you down flat like you just dont have the energy to do anything. All she could say was "Oh, stop dwelling on it, thats half your problem, you keep on reading about it and dwelling on it, if you just forget about it, it will go away, ..."I said to her that I am just sorry for all the problems that it has caused in our marriage, but I know I am just very fortunate that I still have a lovely family and home and I haven't lost my wife. She didnt even flinch, but just went on reading the newspaper with a look of irritation on her face.

kevan, your story seems very similar to mine. I suffered a lot when I found out my x-wife’s affair. I was 10 months long depressed and lost 8 kg in the first 2 months.I had all your symptoms and she had all f the symptoms of your wife. It was a terrible year.During that year I could not concentrate on anything but I decided to collect all information I could find (mainly Internet Articles) to understand what was going on. This helped me a lot to survive and make the final decision. Unfortunately at that time I did not accessed a forum like this one. The support you get here is really great!You seem to be as lost as I was at that time.To feel depressed is awful and you should try to do something do minimize it. In my opinion, the best and easiest thing you can do is to practice any sport or exercise. You can not imagine how this helps. Everybody knows that when you are depressed you are not stimulated to do anything but you have to force yourself. The results are immediate. In my case I started swimming in the club. It was great. Everyday at lunch time I made a short brake, jumped into the water, swam for some minutes, laid on the sun for another couple of minutes and saw different people. This was really great for me. If you swim or walk, you have some time to do something very pleasant while you are relaxing. As a start, this is what you need.Good luck!!dvpc

Kevan, I went thru some of the same things. X went to a counselor who told her it might take 5 yrs to work things out between us. That depressed her. We then went to counsleing together, 3 different ones about 2-3 time to each, and all it did was make her angrier at me. She too said she didn't need anyone to tell her about herself.It is interesting that your w says she doesn't need anyone to tell her things, but she goes to tarot and psychics, that is a contradiction.It sounds like she is very, very confused. This is why you need help from counseling. We can give you advice from what we did right/wrong, but you need professional help. MAke sure it is a pro-marriage counselor otherwise they will tell you to quit.As for your needs, you really have to put them on hold. I know this is difficult, but this is what you have to do. If you complain to your w, that will only drive her away, she will say all you do is think about yourself. Also by concentrating on your needs, you maybe setting yourslef up for an affair if you are confiding in any women about your problems, so you need to be aware of that. It can happen way too fast.As you can see, your w did see your simple question as a lovebuster. You really have to think about what you say. You probably should have just asked how her day went after your conversation.You must make her feel safe around you, currently she isn't feeling that way, and pretty much everything you do is considered a lovebuster.You have to do the best you can acting as if nothing has happened. I know it is hard, but this has to be on her timetable, not yours.You are getting mixed signals, I never got that. My x had pretty much decided to leave. She only showed me anything for about a week. I discovered mid-May and she left July 1 and we were divorced Feb the following year so mine went very fast. You are still hanging in there. She sounds very confused and all you can do is make her feel safe.Hang in.Bob

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by RWD: Kevan, You are still hanging in there. She sounds very confused and all you can do is make her feel safe.Hang in.Bob<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for the constant reminders - yes, I know I have to just ignore all my suspicions and play along with her...Like five minutes ago - she just phoned on her 'cellphone' to see if I was going out after work today for drinks or not - I said no, I am heading straight home. She said its quite ok with her I can go out for a drink if I want to, as they are having a few drinks at work anyhow.Only after she put the phone down did it sink home - if she is still at work, why did she phone me on her cellphone, why not use the phone at work, she is the receptionist?So, I now have to catch the bus home, which takes over an hour - leaving her lots of time to do whatever she wants before I get home, at the earliest at 6:30 pm............................... BUT OF COURSE I cannot ask her that can I - just another lovebuster if I did?????????????????????IF I DO FIND THAT SHE IS STILL SEEING OM SHE IS OUT OF OUR HOME FOR SURE THIS TIME!!!! - Yes I am in that type of mood now and how do I get rid of it?I gave her a "Love Card" this morning, but absolutely no mention of it..............another one I must just ignore - it is really not fun just being walked over all the time without ending up feeling very depressed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: Thanks for the constant reminders - yes, I know I have to just ignore all my suspicions and play along with her...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Something on the lighter side [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

HOW TO IMPRESS A WOMAN Compliment her, respect her, honour her, cuddle her, kiss her, caress her, love her, stroke her, tease her, comfort her, protect her, hug her, hold her, spend money on her, wine and dine her, buy things for her, listen to her, care for her, stand by her, support her, hold her, go to the ends of the Earth for her. HOW TO IMPRESS A MAN Show up naked. Bring food. Now send this to 10 people or you will have a bad love life for 3 years

Hi Kevani've just been here for over an hour reading your whole thread.You poor thing. But you're not alone, and you're not the only one to have gone through this.It sucks, and it sucks big time.I don't have much to say to you, but I will share this with you. I made so many mistakes, said so many things, and asked so many questions.ALL OF WHICH DROVE HIM FURTHER AWAY.Does this sound familiar???????This is exactly what you are doing.Of course you have rights. Of course you deserve to be loved by your wife. Of course you deserve to be given a hug and kiss. Of course you have needs, feelings and emotions. But guess what, THAT all means diddly squat to her at the moment. When our spouses are in the throes of an affair or have just ended one, they don't see anything but themselves. As you are so painfully experiencing. I'm so sorry you are going through this too.Please don't take this post the wrong way. I'm usually not so blunt, but I can see where you are headed. The same road that I took. I pushed and pushed and pushed. Pushed so hard I pushed him away, and into her arms. This is where you are going my friend.Now, what to do about it...... Do what I DIDN'T do.!!!!DON'T ASK QUESTIONS (none at all, you CAN do it)DON'T MAKE HER FEEL FOLLOWED, CHECKED UP ON, HARRASSED (even if you're not, she sees and thinks that you are)JUST BE THERE. CALMLY, LOVINGLY, FRIENDLYDON'T DISCUSS ANYTHING WITH YOUR CHILDREN, UNLESS THEY ASK YOU. LEAVE THEM OUT OF THIS.This will take it all out of you. You will need those anti-deps with every fibre of your being. But you must NOT ask questions. She will have no answers for you anyway, and what she does say will not satisfy you. It's all a load of bs. My ex-h still has no answers for me, 2 years down the track.I know this is not fair. None of it is. I know if anyone deserves answers, it's us. However, that's not the way this affair 'game' works. They get it all their own way. Whatever they want. You can do no right. Whatever you do or say is wrong. Yep, been there, done that..... It's hideous and I would not wish it on my worst enemy (well, maybe the OW!!!!)However, things change. One day they do wake up and realise what is happening to them. For some it's sooner, for some it's later. Who knows when it will be for your wife.What you need to do is focus on YOU. Find an interest for yourself, and maybe one for you and your son. Use this horrible time as a bonding time for the 'boys' in the family. Take the children away camping or something, to give her space. Make some good come out of something so bad. YOu may just find that when you start giving her space, she won't want it. You may also find that by focussing on your children, and building your relationship up with them, it may just take your mind off things for a while. Even an hour is a relief in our situations.!!!Don't be so available to her. I know, stupid thing to say when you're man and wife, however, what I mean is emotionally available. You have bent over backwards to accomodate her every need and wish. You have bent over backwards to let her know how much you want your marriage to work. Now let her think about those things. GIVE HER THE SPACE SHE WANTS. You have to do this, because it will tear you up if you don't.My ex-h had an affair with someone he worked with (don't they all!!) and when I found out about it, every morning I had to wave him off to work with our 12 month old at the door. I was basically sending him off to her. How do you think that made me feel. Makes me feel sick even now. Anyway, my point is this. She calls all the shots at the moment. You need to let her do that, and in the meantime, you make youself stronger and able to deal with this.Everyone has their breaking point. Mine came a lot sooner that a lot of others here, but I couldn;t take anymore (& I hadn't found this site)Until you reach your own breaking point, keep hanging in, but give her whatever she wants. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying condone her affair, no way, that's completely unacceptable, but she may have given him up already. Her bahaviour would seem to indicate withdrawal.FOCUS ON YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN MY FRIEND. And get off your high horse about your 'size'. I don't mean to be awful about any insecurities you may have, but have some faith in you as a person. Us women look for more than that you know. Do you make her laugh? Do you like romance? Do you occasionally do the dishes and vacuum? I know you do all that. That is more appealing to *most* women than the size of the willy.And as Dana (I think) said, there's other ways of tantalising and satisfying a woman.... Now that's a whole other thread............LOL Maybe we should start that one. Oh no, I don't want to go there, it's been a while, KABOOM KABOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!Please cheer up, have some faith in you and know that we all love and care about you. have a great weekend with your kids Jo

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bonnet: Hi KevanI don't have much to say to you, but I will share this with you. I made so many mistakes, said so many things, and asked so many questions.ALL OF WHICH DROVE HIM FURTHER AWAY.Does this sound familiar??????? Have a great weekend with your kids Jo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is the most degrading experience I think any person could ever experience in life.You know that you were not the complete cause of the affair, but you still have to suffer because of it?This is so, so, so cruel.I have never felt so walked over and humiliated in my life.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bonnet: Hi Kevan JUST BE THERE. CALMLY, LOVINGLY, FRIENDLYDON'T DISCUSS ANYTHING WITH YOUR CHILDREN, UNLESS THEY ASK YOU. LEAVE THEM OUT OF THIS.GIVE HER THE SPACE SHE WANTSAnd as Dana (I think) said, there's other ways of tantalising and satisfying a woman.... Now that's a whole other thread............LOL Maybe we should start that one. Oh no, I don't want to go there, it's been a while, KABOOM KABOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!Please cheer up, have some faith in you and know that we all love and care about you. have a great weekend with your kids Jo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Does a man have to lose his dignity completely too?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bonnet: Hi Kevan JUST BE THERE. CALMLY, LOVINGLY, FRIENDLYGIVE HER THE SPACE SHE WANTS. You have to do this, because it will tear you up if you don't.Please cheer up, have some faith in you and know that we all love and care about you. have a great weekend with your kids Jo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Give her space - yes, so she can get further away from me? So that she can find better things to do than she does with me? So that she can end up in his arms again? I gave her space last time and look what happened?I asked her why she did it? She needed someone to lean on, she needed someone to talk to, I never talk to her, she was suffocated, I didnt take notice of her, I didnt buy her things - which is all a load of hogwash. I have helped her in every way possible at home, always volunteered to do and help with the housework, but we also get tired and need a break.Hey, is anyone perfect? I have had every thing possible thrown in my face believe me, and I have spent my whole life dedicated to her. I have given up many activities because she didnt enjoy them, have not done things because I could not do them with her.I feel like I have just been chewed up and spat out and trampled on.I tried to make a new life for my family and now I get told I care more for my kids than her and what she wants. All she does is moan that we dont have what we used to have, that we have lost so much by coming here, the weather is lousy, she doesnt have a swimming pool anymore, she doesnt have her dogs anymore. She wants a newer home like some of her friends here. Hey, I miss all these things too, but realize I have had to sacrifice for what we have now - a better quality of life even if the weather isnt so wonderful and our home is a lot smaller. This hurts me too, to see my kids cramped up in small bedrooms with insufficient space and nowhere to entertain their friends. But at the same time I do realze the freedom they have here to come and go, walk around where they want to, have so many more opportunities.

Oh Kevan,I can see and hear the hurt, pain, humiliation and anger that you are going through. That is so normal for us, the betrayed.Yes, it hurts, and it hurts like hell, but until she sees what she is doing, you can't do a thing to change her mind, or her.All you can do is focus on you. Do a lot of soulsearching about where you may have gone wrong in the marriage. For her to have to go outside the marriage, there is something missing. Even tho you think that you have done all a good husband should do, she obviously doesn't. I'm not going to get in the middle of what may have happened in your marriage, but there was obviously something wrong in her mind.When I look back at my own marriage, with the benefit of all that I have been through, and some time, I can see exactly what I did wrong, and where I could have lifted my game. That does not say in ANY way that what he did was acceptable or allowable. It's not for you wife either. What I am saying is that I wasn't there meeting all his needs, so he went outside the marriage.If your wife has said to you 'don't be so accomodating', then don't be. If she needs a lift somewhere, or needs the washing done, tell her you'll have to do it later as you have something else on. Let her see that you have developed an interest that is solely for you. It will be hard to say no that first time, and you're not really saying no, you're saying that you can't do it right when she wants you to do it. You'll do it later.Women are contrary creatures. If she sees that you are not there for her beck and call, she may start wondering why. She may just take that long hard look at herself and start to question what she is doing.I personally think you have allowed her to treat you as a bit of a doormat. I'm sorry to be so honest. Your intentions are so good, and so honourable, but maybe that is what is 'turning her off'........I realise I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but believe me I only care about you in this situation. I have to be honest with what I am picking up from what you are saying. As I said earlier I'm not usually so blunt, but I HATE seeing people being used. And you my friend are being right royally used at the moment. She's using you as a taxi service, a house cleaning service, a babysitting service etc etc etc.Yes she needs time and space. You have to give her that. But don't you dare neglect yourself because of that. Have you given any thought to my suggestion about making time for you and the kids? Just you 3?Don't ever forget that we're here for you. To let you yell, scream, rant and rave. Whatever you say or do here is ok with us. We've got big broad shoulders.take care of youJo

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bonnet: Oh Kevan,I can see and hear the hurt, pain, humiliation and anger that you are going through. That is so normal for us, the betrayed.Yes, it hurts, and it hurts like hell, but until she sees what she is doing, you can't do a thing to change her mind, or her.All you can do is focus on you. Do a lot of soulsearching about where you may have gone wrong in the marriage. For her to have to go outside the marriage, there is something missing. Even tho you think that you have done all a good husband should do, she obviously doesn't. I'm not going to get in the middle of what may have happened in your marriage, but there was obviously something wrong in her mind.When I look back at my own marriage, with the benefit of all that I have been through, and some time, I can see exactly what I did wrong, and where I could have lifted my game. That does not say in ANY way that what he did was acceptable or allowable. It's not for you wife either. What I am saying is that I wasn't there meeting all his needs, so he went outside the marriage.If your wife has said to you 'don't be so accomodating', then don't be. If she needs a lift somewhere, or needs the washing done, tell her you'll have to do it later as you have something else on. Let her see that you have developed an interest that is solely for you. It will be hard to say no that first time, and you're not really saying no, you're saying that you can't do it right when she wants you to do it. You'll do it later.Women are contrary creatures. If she sees that you are not there for her beck and call, she may start wondering why. She may just take that long hard look at herself and start to question what she is doing.I personally think you have allowed her to treat you as a bit of a doormat. I'm sorry to be so honest. Your intentions are so good, and so honourable, but maybe that is what is 'turning her off'........I realise I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but believe me I only care about you in this situation. I have to be honest with what I am picking up from what you are saying. As I said earlier I'm not usually so blunt, but I HATE seeing people being used. And you my friend are being right royally used at the moment. She's using you as a taxi service, a house cleaning service, a babysitting service etc etc etc.Yes she needs time and space. You have to give her that. But don't you dare neglect yourself because of that. Have you given any thought to my suggestion about making time for you and the kids? Just you 3?Don't ever forget that we're here for you. To let you yell, scream, rant and rave. Whatever you say or do here is ok with us. We've got big broad shoulders.take care of youJo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi Jo,Thanks for your continuing support.Soul-searching I have done believe me, for 9 months thats all I have done. I have gone through Emotional Needs, Love Busters, Why do women leave men, Basic Concepts, PLan A & B and nearly every related article on this site.I ask my wife where am I missing out, she just says be yourself - well it was myself wasnt it that caused her to look elsewhere for her needs.I was suffering from depression before her affair, mainly because I felt that I was not living up to her expectations and could not give her everything she required, and that I was failing as an income provider. And the stresses and pressures of starting a new life in Canada, having to downgrade our style of life, and because my wife could not settle here and was constantly moaning about the weather, the people she worked with, her family and friends that she was dragged away from, the extra work load that she now has. But yet it was not only my decision to come here.Yes, I was on anti-deps before, right up to March last year. The doctor and my wife said it was itme to come off them, I was even myself feeling a lot better, but jad tremendous stress and pressure in the job I had. It does get to you when youyr boss tells you "If you cant do it, just tell me and we'll find someone else instead." - How does that make you feel when you know the company is battling and wanting to reduce staff and you have been looking for another job for 6 months and cant find anything?Then my wife tells me recently that work is not everything - it would have looked a lot sicker if I didnt have a job. I am a very conscientious worker.Then my wife also tells me I am not romantic, I have never been, it must just be something to do with South African men - they just dont know how to be romantic. Lovely.One of the biggest problems is that she has still not accepted that we have done this all for our kids to give them a better life and she feels like she is just treated as the maidservant - hey, I work my backside off too in the home.Boy, I have tried everything in the book, loving, caring, helping, listening everyhting suggested on this site to be nice and loving to your wife.She tells me she had the affair because she needed someone to lean one (so she ended up lying on him too).Yes, I have done much soul-searching alright on where I have gone wrong - but maybe I am just dumb or thick - but I do feel I need some more input from my wife than the above or be told that She doesnt feel she should have to "coach" me.I love her termendously but she has always hidden so much of her emotions, now she is hiding other things too. - Must I just ignore thsi and go on happily like nothing has happened? I do not believe our marriage is over, I do believe it can be fully healed - but really neeed some positive input from my wife too - not just "I need time", "I want to go back to SA and you cant stop me" - but yet she keeps on putting it off.She just expects me to forget it all like it never happened. But at the same time I must accept that she does not want to be intimate any more - I asked her what and why - she says "Well, maybe I have changed".She just wants to go back to SA to her Mommy and her old friends and seems blind to what is going on there these days.I am just so really confused.I know I sound like I am just going around in circles.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bonnet: Oh Kevan,Women are contrary creatures. If she sees that you are not there for her beck and call, she may start wondering why. She may just take that long hard look at herself and start to question what she is doing.I personally think you have allowed her to treat you as a bit of a doormat. I'm sorry to be so honest. Your intentions are so good, and so honourable, but maybe that is what is 'turning her off'........Don't ever forget that we're here for you. To let you yell, scream, rant and rave. Whatever you say or do here is ok with us. We've got big broad shoulders.take care of youJo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Turn her off? Turn her on ???Who the hell knows anymore? Does it not make a person suspicious when she is happy to be here at home, with her kids and me when it suits her, but the minute it comes to any closeness she backs away? This makes me feel like they are still involved and she's enjoying it, having the extra attention from both sides.I could be very wrong too I suppose, but she has always shied away from approaching people and breaking things off, but still wants me to believe everything is ok and just wnats me to forget it all happened.How can you just FORGET and put it all behind you when she still has problems being close and intimate. Hell, its not me that was sleeping around? Its not me that was lying to her for 6 months?This is so very very difficult when she doesnt want to be totally open talk about things.Am I really being too hasty - 9 months after the discovery and feel like it was yesterday and that we are not moving forward?Hey man, I have gone through Emotional Needs, Love Busters, Basic Concepts, Why Women Leave men and nearly every other article on this webiste searching for the right thing to do and still feel no closer to a resolution?I asked her this afternoon if she still wants me and wants me to be her husband? She said "Yes, but please lets not start this all over again" There is some warmth coming from her, but more towards the kids, and she is still so distant in many ways.........I think if this keeps up I am just going to get out of here for my own sanity.

Hi Kevan,I have been reading your posts off and on. I noticed that much of your efforts are being either overcome with another excuse or buried by your W. Isn't this draining on you? It is for me. After awhile, I stopped rolling with my H's excuses and started treating him by the conflict avoider rules. Be as agreeable as possible, then give them questions or statements to make them think. Get them to use their gray cells. It helps clear the fog even if it is just for a little while. Their excuses will be endless because they are not giving you the real reason. If they can't find an excuse then it is either "you don't understand" or "I don't know". Well you do understand and they do know, but just not telling. If they don't know then maybe they should go with the one who does know and understand. But they often don't because they want to continue on that roller coaster ride. Figure out if you want to stay on that ride or not. If all this seems confusing, well it is. Talking with my H makes me dizzy and lightheaded. He talks in vague terms and ends in "I don't know". After he leaves, you find out that he made no commitment and the talk was basically worthless. No sizeable progress. So why does he stop by and talk? I don't know. See how catching that disease can be? Example, H came by tonight, we started talking and he actually forgot what he came over to talk about. Go figure. He was over for 1 1/2 hours and could not remember what he wanted to talk about. I brought topics that needed to be discussed, but he never remembered. Also, he did not want to tell me on the phone the purpose for his visit so I did not have a clue. It is hard to deal with those in the fog. I have learned not to stress as much by trying harder than I have to. I am a giver by trade so this has been a real test for me. Hang in there. Sure wish there was a spousal appreciation pill we could give our mates. L.

Hi Kevan,I sure can remember that feeling of going round and round in circles. vividly.Made me dizzy and sick to my stomach.I'm going to think about you and your situation. I really don't know what to say at the moment. The fact that your w isn't leaving you, and isn't going back to SA, seems positive in its own way. The fact that she doesn't want to talk, or discuss things, or come clean about things, or surprise surprise, doesn't know anything, is normal. So normal for these people in the fog that it's scary.How many people out there in big business, operating on patients, driving trucks or some such thing, all the while in this fog...... scary scary thought.I haven't asked my ex-h any questions for such a long time now. All I ever got was "I don't know." Really and truly, every single question I asked was met with the same response. Drove me insane. I had to let it go for the sake of my own sanity.All I can say to you is that she will weave and duck around the issues if she doesn't want to talk about them. You cannot make her. Again, what I said before. You need to focus on YOU. Make yourself a better person for YOU. Not for her, but you. Only by working on yourself will you not drive yourself insane.Are you one of those people that likes to please everyone else, in order to keep the peace and keep everyone ELSE happy, sometimes to the detriment of yourself.?? If you are, maybe that is one area that you could work on. Work on saying NO once in a while. Nicely of course, but if it doesn't suit you, or you can't do it, then don't.Again, I'm making assumptions here, but I'm trying to get a feel on where you are coming from, and ways that you may be able to work on yourself. I know that I had to learn patience, and learn to listen, really listen. Just keep my mouth shut and let him talk. It took some time, but I think I do ok now. Better than I used to anyway.hope your tomorrow is betterhugsJo

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bonnet: Hi Kevan,I sure can remember that feeling of going round and round in circles. vividly..............Are you one of those people that likes to please everyone else, in order to keep the peace and keep everyone ELSE happy, sometimes to the detriment of yourself.?? If you are, maybe that is one area that you could work on. Work on saying NO once in a while. Nicely of course, but if it doesn't suit you, or you can't do it, then don't. hugsJo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks Jo, much appreciated.Is it no tamazing ho w people in these situations are just blind to what they have done and are doing?It often gets so bad that I wonder if it is just a figment of my imagination - that I am being neurotic about it all, but then you just get that gut feeling that everything is rosy on the surface but something is just not right?Yes, I am often the type of person, especially at home that will try and smooth things over, look at the other persons perspective wherever possible, take their feelings into account, and just please them to keep the peace - not always though, but in many situations. Especially when it comes to someone that will find an excuse and lash out in defense as soon as anything goes wrong. Hey, my wife scraped the car twice last year in the shopping centre parking lot. The first time she told me about it, she was quite upset about it, I said, well don't worry, these things happen, just be careful next time (whats the use of getting all upset about it anyhow) - she got it repaired. The second time, she didnt even tell me. Then I got mad, mainly because she didnt tell me, not because she bumped it (which was carelessness anyhow). Then she tells me she didnt tell me because she thought I had already seen it and she was scared to tell me because I would have gotten upset about it. - Good way to pass the blame.Maybe I should get a little more upset about things, hey.Well, anyhow I did get very upset about the affair of course, and I am sure this has been half the problem. I think the main reason I was really upset is that she was lying to me for 6 months about it all and telling me nothing was happening after I caught her with her bag of lingerie early in the year. Here I was just about believeing her that nothing was happening, although did have my doubts. I was praying daily asking the Lord if anything was happening between them. Yes I got a very rude awakening when she was found out. What upset me even more was the fact that it was our son who had to discover them in the park of all places. What has been holding me back all the time is her refusal to understand that she had to break it off completely with OM. Only when my son approached her straight out and told her that he was ready to move out did we get some action, but then it took quite a while too.Believe it or not we did make love last night, the first time in a long time, although I was in big trouble this morning because I was evidently snoring all night. My wife is a very light sleeper and is having tremendous problems sleeping these last two years, even if I am not in the bedroom with her, which has been more often than not the last few months.I guess we can only try what we can and leave them to make up their own minds - but it really makes you feel like dirt because you do feel that it was not all your fault that it had to go that far, and why were these things not openly approached with you beforehand - I guess its just true what they say about hindsight, and it is just a very cruel world we live in.Just to add to it all, had one helluva bad day at work too. <sniffle>Thanks guys for all the support and hugs - really appreciated.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bonnet: Hi Kevan,I sure can remember that feeling of going round and round in circles. vividly.Made me dizzy and sick to my stomach.I'm going to think about you and your situation. I really don't know what to say at the moment. The fact that your w isn't leaving you, and isn't going back to SA, seems positive in its own way. hope your tomorrow is betterhugsJo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi again Jo,Well I am pretty sure if it wasnt for financial constraints she would have gone back to SA a long time ago - and maybe it would have even prevented this stupid senseless affair - but then who knows what she might of got up to in SA anyhow - wow, I am really mistrusting aren't I???? Wonder why???I know I am crossposting, but here is some feedback I received about forgetting from another board: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Originally posted by pacness: Kev, it has been 8 years since my wife had her A. She was made every effort to make it work. I know this in my gut, but the fear has not gone away. I don't think it will ever go away. You have been married for 22 years. In your mind, you will never trust her. If you see a guy that looks like the one she had the A with, it will bring all those feelings to the surface. That is the reality. Your relationship will never be the same. In my case, I am enjoying life with my wife, but in the back of my mind, I will never put my guard down. I could never fully trust her. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Daer PAcness,How fortunate you are that your wife has seen the light of day and has put every effort into it and is doing everything she can to restore things - you just dont know how fortunate you are.Hey, not only if I see someone that resembles him, every time I go past the park where they were caught kissing, every time I see a car that is similar to his, every time my wife tells me a naughty joke (yes they used to swap many dirty jokes), every time I go any where near the company they used to work together at, every time we drive along the highway in the area he lives in, every time she switches off her cellphone after work, every time she mentions the company they used to work for, every time a friend mentions someone else's affair and infidelity, every time Idrive down to the river where they allegedly mad love (still got my doubts about where it happened), every time we drive past the bar they used to go to - then it all floods back again and I get these alternating feelings of either deep anger and want to go and beat up the swine, or feel so damn depressed that I did something wrong and caused it all to happen.I am sure as you say this is one experience that will never go away and its true, I cannot see how I could ever trust her again to the degree that I did before, and for that matter trust any woman in my life again as far as a relationship goes, although at this stage I am not planning on starting up an other relationships.As I said to my daughter this morning, does my wife really expect me, right now to trust her and not be suspicious, and do I not have the right to feel suspicious when, like last night, ater work, she did not answer her cellphone at all, both me and my kids were trying to get hold of her, and she evidently locked her handbag in the trunk of the car and went for a walk down by the river until 6:15 pm? Of course she got really upset when I asked her where she had been and gave me hell because I had called her five times (correction, I only called three times and my kids twice). I was on the point of asking her who she had gone for a walk with, but thought I had better just shut up and not cause any more friction - yes, me backing down again. All I was trying to do was to tell her that I was leaving work a bit late and not to worry if I got home a bit late........ Hey, am I wrong here again - do I not still have the right to be suspicious after all that has happened and the resistance I have received from her.I know two wrongs dont make a right, but just wonder how she would feel if I started doing these types of things every second night and got mad with her if she started checking up on what I was doing - I know she wouldnt do it out of principle just to prove to me that she was a better person than me.Why do people have to be so damn hard-headed and stubborn and live in a state of denial, do they not realize what pain and torment they are causing others?I am still in very much doubt whether she has broken off contact with OM........Oh, yes, now she wants to know how she can set up her own private Hotmail email account. I asked her why, what is wrong with the one we have at home, she answered "Well, why not, why cant I have some privacy in my life? The kids have their own so why cant I?"Makes you feel really good about re-securing a secret-free, honest open marriage doesnt it?Or again, am I just being neurotic?

Kevan, your W wanting to set up a private e-mail account is NOT a good sign. According to Dr. Harley, your and your W's lives should be an open book and freely accessible to one another. IMO, there can be NO secrets if you want your marriage to recover.During my A I was extremely secretive and, like your W, insisted on my privacy. You can guess why I wanted privacy. I had my cell phone bill sent to my office and concealed a number of other things as well.I hate to say this, but I think there is a possibility that your W is still in contact with OM. She needs to understand that there can be NO CONTACT - as long as any kind of contact exists, she can't put her full effort into working on the marriage.I know how much you're trying to do your part and I really feel for you. I wish there was something I could say to make you feel better. Will you settle for a {{{{Hug}}}}?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: Kevan, your W wanting to set up a private e-mail account is NOT a good sign. According to Dr. Harley, your and your W's lives should be an open book and freely accessible to one another. IMO, there can be NO secrets if you want your marriage to recover.During my A I was extremely secretive and, like your W, insisted on my privacy. You can guess why I wanted privacy. I had my cell phone bill sent to my office and concealed a number of other things as well.I hate to say this, but I think there is a possibility that your W is still in contact with OM. She needs to understand that there can be NO CONTACT - as long as any kind of contact exists, she can't put her full effort into working on the marriage.I know how much you're trying to do your part and I really feel for you. I wish there was something I could say to make you feel better. Will you settle for a {{{{Hug}}}}?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Suzie,Good to hear from you again.I just do not get that warm fuzzy feeling that all is well and she is trying her best to restore things, know what I mean.Yes, I know I should be concentrating more first on what is wrong with me than what is wrong with our relationship, and I am doing that constantly, doing my best to be a better husband and being more sensitive to my wife's needs IN OUR MARRIAGE, BUT NOT HER PERCEIVED NEED FOR INDEPENDENCE AND FREEDOM AND PRIVACY. AM I BEING SELFISH, CONTROLLING AND POSSESSIVE?This email story may just be innocent, but again under the circumstances it really does make one wonder - independence, privacy, space - in marriage - not according to the marriage principles I have been taught. Is not one email account at home sufficient for a married couple? I never hide anything we receive on our home email account from anybody, not even our kids. The kids have their own email accounts and even their own voicemail boxes on our answering machine - but then they are teenagers who by nature want their own bit of life and privacy which is understandable - BUT my wife is not an independent teenager, is she?Yes, as I have said before I know all the principles of Plan A, Plan B, etc. and are doing my best to put all Dr. Harley's principles in effect (even though I do find someof them a bit submissive - but I suppose that's my male ego at play, isnt it), but do also expect this to be a two-way street and cooperation from the W, not just "Get over it, you are dwelling too much on it" and "S**t happens, thats life, grow up and face it"Suzie - yes, I will ALWAYS accept a HUG [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

As far as this e-mail account goes, I don't think you're being obsessive, selfish or controlling. Under the circumstances, anyone would be suspicious after what's happened. Believe me, your reaction is normal.If nothing is going on, there shouldn't be such a need for secrecy. On the other hand, you have to be careful the way you approach this b/c of the state your W seems to be in.It also seems to me that your W is trying to sweep this whole affair under the rug with her comments that you should "get over it". Maybe she can't deal with what she's done, but her attitude is hurtful to you as you've suffered a devastating blow.Be strong, Kevan!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: As far as this e-mail account goes, I don't think you're being obsessive, selfish or controlling. Under the circumstances, anyone would be suspicious after what's happened. Believe me, your reaction is normal.If nothing is going on, there shouldn't be such a need for secrecy. On the other hand, you have to be careful the way you approach this b/c of the state your W seems to be in.It also seems to me that your W is trying to sweep this whole affair under the rug with her comments that you should "get over it". Maybe she can't deal with what she's done, but her attitude is hurtful to you as you've suffered a devastating blow.Be strong, Kevan!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You are right there on every turn ok.So, how do I approach a person like this without them getting offended?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: It also seems to me that your W is trying to sweep this whole affair under the rug with her comments that you should "get over it". Maybe she can't deal with what she's done, but her attitude is hurtful to you as you've suffered a devastating blow.Be strong, Kevan!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course she wants to just sweep it under the rug, she has had the fun, had her fling, doesnt want to see why she should break all contact with him (but of course not - he must have treated her like a queen, wined, dined, kissed and scr......d - trying to tell me he doesnt want more???Trying to tell me he still wouldnt want to get back in her pants?WHat a dilemma she must be in...I know I am really sounding bitter, but I do love her and know that under this facade she is hiding behind is a warm, giving, (gave too much this time though) loving, caring person.Oh, dammit, what a mess...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan:

Quote

Originally posted by Susie7753: It also seems to me that your W is trying to sweep this whole affair under the rug with her comments that you should "get over it". Maybe she can't deal with what she's done, but her attitude is hurtful to you as you've suffered a devastating blow.Be strong, Kevan!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, another few weeks gone by, a few "discussions" of course initiated from me, not from my wife. Every time she just gets irritable when Itry and talk or ask her where she's been.She is still hiding her cellphone account from me - I wonder if it is just to spite me or if she is still phoning him - How can I be sure she has stopped contacting him?She has not been out at night at all, but still comes home a bit late some nights - been "shopping".She has spent most weekends with me or at home, but still goes out "shopping" every Saturday and Sunday morning for an hour or two.Had a lovely evening at the local pub on Friday.How the hell do I get rid of this suspicion - I do really want to believe her, but get resistance from her - maybe I just dont understand women and the need to have some freedom and independence - but why cant she see how she is hurting me and making it all that more difficult all the time.God help me..

Kevan, as much as what I'm going to suggest may be an LB, I think that you need to verify what's going on with your W.If you remember, I denied it anytime my H mentioned anything about the possibility of my having an A. Finally, he became so disgusted with my lies and denials that he took matters into his own hands and set out to catch me - which he did.First, he called the cell phone company to obtain copies of my bills. They refused to provide them, however. I don't know if the laws are different where you are.Second, he put a hand-held GPS tracking device in my car and was able to see everywhere I'd gone.And third, he put a wiretap on our home phone. This is ultimately how I was caught - while my H was away, the device recorded a week's worth of phone conversations with OM. When my H returned home, he confronted me with the tape.I don't know what you feel comfortable with doing to find out what you need to know. Maybe you should get some professional advice on this one.I know it's tough, but hang in there. {{{{{{Hugs}}}}}}

On a lighter note. There are now a variety of techniques that can prevent snoring. Recommend that you find a ENT practitioner that specializes in correcting this condition. It may even help your marriage.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: First, he called the cell phone company to obtain copies of my bills. They refused to provide them, however. I don't know if the laws are different where you are.Second, he put a hand-held GPS tracking device in my car and was able to see everywhere I'd gone.And third, he put a wiretap on our home phone. I don't know what you feel comfortable with doing to find out what you need to know. Maybe you should get some professional advice on this one.I know it's tough, but hang in there. {{{{{{Hugs}}}}}}<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi Suzie, so good to hear from you again - Telephone records - I am sure it is much the same here and quite possible if I try and get these records they will notify her - then I am in trouble again for snooping.The GPS - now that sounds like a good idea - I will have to get hold of your husband for some more details on that [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

The wiretap - what a pity we cant get one on a cellphone [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

but thats pushing it hey....Wiretap at home - dont think that would help with tracking calls with OM, he/she would never use that phoneline - our kids would find that out very quick.Am I just maybe overreacting after all this doubt and lies? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

A bit difficult to really figure this one out when she is being so resistant to talking things out.On the other hand - just remember all our accounts (except her clothing accounts and her cellphone account) including bank accounts are joint account - so she can see as soon as I withdraw any money anywhere - give her that she is a good bookkeeper alright.Of course still getting it thrown in my face reguarly that she is going back to South Africa sometime "And then what am I going to do then?" - my response is I am more interested in the present, I will tackle that when the time comes. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Suzie, please dont think I am taking a dig at you now, you are a wonderful person to be able to come up honest after what has happened and then still be open enough to come forward and give advice like this - you have won a crown of glory in my eyes definitely, [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

but....Isnt it amazing - you get defied and betrayed and then do not believe anything much that a person tells you, even if you dream it up yourself - I wonder if people really realize what they have actually done to their partners by betraying/lying to them. The suspicion of a lot that you are told, the suspicions of a lot that you have not been told.Hey is everyone like this or am I unique?Hey, yes I am hanging in there and getting more chirpy and cheerful every day, why not!!!Just, you know, get these downers every now and then, but at least only about once a day now, not all day.{{{{{{Hugs}}}}}}Hey we better watch out with these hugs - just now we will be under suspicion for starting an Internet Affair [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by max: On a lighter note. There are now a variety of techniques that can prevent snoring. Recommend that you find a ENT practitioner that specializes in correcting this condition. It may even help your marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi Max, i tried that a few years ago, but will have to have a re-look again.I went to a ENT - he trid to sell me a "corrective operation" at an astronomical price that wasnot covered by Medical Insurance. This procedure was to remove some of the flesh/skin from the soft palate at the rear of the mouth - BUT - with only about a 50% success rate. This he claimed was my whole problem and the only way to cure my problem. ( I have had a sinus-related operation done quite a few years ago already)I was told subsequently by my wife (believe it or not) that a relative of someone she worked with had this done and ended up with one very sore throat for more than a month, off work for three weeks as he could not talk, and after 6 weeks was snoring just as much. Not really something to feel positive about, is it?I do appreciate your concern and suggestions and am due back at the doctor later this week and will speak to him again regarding to other possibilities.Thanks for the response...........

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: I do appreciate your concern and suggestions and am due back at the doctor later this week and will speak to him again regarding to other possibilities.Thanks for the response...........<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi Suzie and all you good people out there, yes I am back again.....So sorry to disappoint you. Things have been going a little easier the last few weeks.Yes she of course is making me out to be the ultimate liar - especially when you hear this: Before I start, excuse the spelling, I dont have the time or inclination to check that right now. "If you can keep your head my son, when all about you are loosing theirs, and blaming it on you, then you're a man my son." Yes I remember this, my mom had it up in the diningroom for many many years, and I have always wanted to find a copy of it Well, I have done it again - just cant shut up can I , just lost all my points last night completely - who knows if we can now recover from this one. Yes, I have found out for sure that she is still in contact with the [censored]. Things have been going well for 4 weeks now, but I have always felt suspicious. Its was a friend of ours that she works with, birthday yesterday so they stayed for drinks after work (as I mentioned). our daughter was trying to reach her as she needed the car last night. our daughter phoned me when I was on the way home from work, neither of us could get hold of her, she wasnt answering - this was at about 6:45. I didnt feel good.When I got home I was fed up and told our daughter to take our big car, which I had been using. She had driven me part wayhome the previuos night and did just fine.Wife wont let her (20 years old - been driving for 2 years) drive it - thinks she cant handle it (but she has driven bigger cars than she in the last 2 years).she was mad because I gave her the car, but as I told her, the kid needed the car, she was late for a meeting (she knows she goes to these church meeting on a Wed. night). she eventually phoned me at 7pm. She could hear I was unhappy. I told her why, we were trying to get hold of her and she just got mad. She got home and was happy and chirpy. I didnt feel good. While she was in the washroom, I checked her cellphone - lo and behold - SHE HAD CALLED THE [censored] AT 5:30. I lost it. I took her up into the bedroom and asked her what was going on, why was she still in contact with him, she denied it at first.I asked her again to be truthful - she then said he called her so she called him back, and then flew off the handle about me checking up on her - I said yes, I was checking up on her, what does she expect. She had promised both me and the kids that she had finished it with HIM, and now we find this out.She said she just does not see the big issue I am making about her speaking to him occasionally....So I did the absolutely wrong thing I started lecturing Her about how I must feel and does she expect me to just ignore eveything that has happened, when she has resisted me all the way along in every waypossible. (thus only looking at things from my selfish perspective and not hers) and I am getting no positive feedback from her, I have done my best in every way to improve, be a happier person and do the best for her.Me overreacting again - only looking at my side of the picture again. She was just mad that I dont trust her and am still checking up on her - I said to her, yes I am - but she just does not see the point. How am I expected to trust her when things get hidden from me, she will not disclose her cellphone account (she said again she doesnt see why - this is her own private matter) She still does not see what the big deal is all about and why she cannot speak to him now and again and yes he does call her occasionally - she promised she hadnt seen him - this I find hard to believe, when she phoned him at 5:30, then didnt answer her phone, then only got home at 7 pm. By the looks of things she may have his number on speed-dial on her cellphone - I can not be sure, but suspect so , but dont know exactly how her phone works. I have never been allowed to sit and fiddle with it and figure it all out.So I tried to get throuh to her that every single person, marriage counselling source, doctor, friend etc. I have spoken to have said the same thing - she has to cut him out completely before we can really sort things out. But I guess I am bieng too hasty in what should be done - 6 months may just be the starting point of them stopping being in contact ???????????????????????????????/Yes, I blew it completely again - a big lovebuster, all the good of the last few weeks out the door. So will have to start all over again. Now she s completely mad at me because I am still checking up on her and dont trust her anymore. She said she is sick and tired of me treating her like a child and she does not have any free time. I am being selfish as far as her free time is concerned. I am being domineering and want everything my way. She doesnt get anyhelp and is just expected to run around after everyone. She says she never snoops in my belongings whereas I have my nose in all her things (yeah, I have become the big snooper alright) including her handbag. (Yes, tis true - I have becoming a professional snooper) I said what must she expect, when I have had to force the issue all the time, and it had to end up in our son challenging her before anything started to get resolved. So she said well, why dont you go and tell the kids again what has happened, seen that I always drag them into it when they have got nothing to do with it and I must keeop my voice down I said to her I have been trying my best to get myself right, try tu put right what I have done wrong, have tried every avenue, but just met with resistnace from her, the counselling, the medication, the need to talk, the articles I have wanted her to read etc. I told her again that I do truly love her, that I want to stay with her, but she must now make up her mind, I cannot sit on the fence forever wondering whather true feelings are, where I stand and is she only around for a while or what? Does she feel it is fair on me when she just tells me all the time that she needs more time, I must just go on like nothing has happened and expect it to be all ok, when she distances herself from me and wont talk. I again asked her so what way can I help her out then, she said go make dinner for yourself and your son, she didnt want any, she was going out - I then challenegd her and said its the same story again, everytime we get into conflict she wants to walk away She then said well, how does she know what I am up to at work with the girls anyhow, how does she know there is nothing going on, I dont tell her eveything that happens at work, I have bought some of them pizza sometimes, so why should I complain if the [censored] (not her words of course) takes her out to lunch or coffee occassionally. She does just not realise how faithful her husband is, I have told her whenever I have gone out somewhere, who I have been with (except for the odd occasions when I have been out with Marcel and been a naughty boy - and I have apologized for it). I do my best to phone her when I am going to be home lat (I do occasionally forget) - and have even been honest and open with her when my friend from work has taken me to the Strip-clubs once or twice. I have even been open and honest about telling which family members I have told about whats been going on. So straight away she said, well there is the phone, why dont you just phone them and tell them all over again what has happened. I asked her if I am being selfish - she said to a degree yes, especially with her free time. So, what can we learn from this - shut up, take all the crap we have to for as long as it takes, humble ourselves, and just treat them like queens for as long as it takes, but do not lose our dignity in the process. A thin line and sometimes you fall off the edge and have to suffer the consequences. What have I learnt - do not force youself onto them, try and be patient, let them do their thing, whatever they want, but hopefully if we can be strong and hang in there and show them we love them and want them, but are prepared to wait for them - we just have a slight chance that we may win - its a tough road - tougher than I ever imagined. I know I am now back to square one, and maybe, just maybe, I may still have a chance of restoring our marriage this time, who knows. It feels now like we have stepped back 6 months. Again she said to me that she does love me but cannot take this anymore, and she is just going to have to leave. She is just totally mad that I am checking up on her. I also said that I am trying in my own way to stabilize myself, Iknow I have depression and the anti-deps and counselling have helped me to try and get in the right direction, I have been trying my best to right myself, but would appreciate some feedback too. She said yes, she has seen some improvement in my attitude so I asked her what is so difficult in her at least mentioning it to me. She retorted that cant I see it that she is also suffering from depression, I sad yes I know she is and why wont she go to the doctor too, the anti-deps do not fix everything, but they do help you cope better She cannot take being treated like a child. I said fine if thats the way she feels but I dont feel it is right - I want to try every way possible to sort things out. why cant we talk to each other properly. I said to her all I want is to sit down and talk rationally about her feelings, our feelings, our future, find a way of sorting this out properly, not just ignoring what has happened. She says it doesnt help becasue everytime I just get mad and shout and it just ends up like this. So I am missing the big picture not letting her spaek rationally and not listening to her - she says she is **** scared to try and talk to me about it because I just go off the deep end. So you see you have been getting the wrong picture from me all along. I also acted very irrationally by giving our daughter the big white car last night, instead of giving her a lift where she wanted to go. she was really ticked off about this. By 10pm she was really mad, she opened the washing machine. The previous night she ad loaded up a load of whites to wash, asked our daughter to put the rest of her things in in the morning. our daughter added all her colorstuf and a red sweater and let the machine run. she of course opened the machine and blew her lid. The water level had not been adjusted either so everything was tangled up. Of course I got it in the neck "If she cant even load the washing machine at the age of 20 and not bugger the clothes up, how do you think she is going to treat the big new car?....... You better get hold of her right now, I am sick of her attitude, I get no help from her, but when I do she is just careless and screws up. Why the hell didnt you give her a lift instead of letting her take the car, shes gonna smash it up." So we tried to get hold of our daughter, but she wasnt answering her cellphone and she went off the handle again, so I got fed up and shouted at her that I am sorry that I gave her the car. our son at this point disappeared upstairs. If she had at least answreed her phone when we were ttrying to get hold of her it all could have been avoided - so then I got crapped out for trying to push the blame onto her. She was then upset and when I tried to apo0logise to her but said I am also getting tired of being screamed at so she started throwing things around and banging cupboard doors. I got dressed again and told her I was going looking for our daughter (11pm), she said thats a bit late to do that now. I slammed the door and pushed off. I found our daughter at a restaurant where she was having dinner with her friends, called her out, told her hat she was totally pissed off because I gave her the car and that we had been trying to phone her because it was so late, told our daughter she better get her butt home quickly, took the white car and went home. I then told her that I had been to the doctor that day, he had given me more anti-deps and was happy with my progress on them. He has also arranged for an appointmant with a specialist to see what can be done about my snoring. she got upset again and wanted to know why I hadnt told her beforehand that I was going - this is a good example of how I dont tell her things that I am doing (I ommitted to tell her becuase I know she is not really in favour of me taking the anti-deps anyhow). I took my pillows and sleeping bag and went downstairs. she washed up and then our daughter came home. I then asked our daughter why she messed up the washing - she said she thought she was doing a good thing by doing the washing - she then blasted her about mixing the colors up etc. our daughter then asked her if she could show her how to do it properly - she said not now, some other time. our daughter closed her door, she slammed the bedroom door, I put the lights out, got myself a beer and a smoke to try and calm down our daughter was crying her eyes out in her bedroom - I wanted to go talk to her but knew I better not - I would be seen as siding with our daughter. she came out her room, went and spoke gently with our daughter. Then I did a nother very stupid thing, took Ave's cellphone and went into the toilet to try and figure out how she had set up his number, but she had erased it. Next minute she knocked on the door and wanted me out of there. I came out and she asked "so, where is it?". I gave it to her and said take it, she said "Oh, this is just great, you cant keep your hands off anything" She then said, well if you are quite finished can I now lock the front door. I said I was quite capable myself (believe it or not) She pushed off upstarirs and again agve me hell for slamming the front door and what would the neighbours think - this late at night... I then got mad and told her not to talk to me about slamming doors after the way she had been slamming things around tonight. She went upstairs and I said to her that we have got to have a serious talk - she replied what for - she cant see anything to talk about. end of that -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yes, will firstly I wonder how she really feels - is she just mixed up and confused because life has not turned out like she expected it to, is she disappointed in me and what she has been dealt up with, does she really want ONLY me in her life now, or does she still feel she needs someone to supplement her life right now. I am so confused right now I dont know if I am coming or going. How she really feels about the kids is difficult to say, she does love them, but gets very fed up with them, feels they are walking all over them that they should be acting more grownup but at te same time feels that they are still her kids and wants to treat then like kids. I can see all that is left now is to just try and be as close to the perfect husband as what she wants me to be - (still trying to figure that out right now - what exactly does she want - but suppose again I have missed it - just be supportive, unselfish, undemanding, non-domineering, trusting, loving but not suffocating, let go of the reins, more helpful, less dependant, less touchy, ignore some things, be a man not a snivelling nervous wreck, unwanting, more accommodating, fitter and stronger, less controlling, less suspicious, less miserable, stop being so very cynical, less possessive, respect her "private life" , etc) and forget about my feelings and needs and HOPEFULLY it will eventually be sufficient for her, if she hasnt found something better in the meantime. I should really stop this - all you are getting is one side of the picture and story all the time, it is not good. Even my own children seem to have better sense about it all. Just feel exhausted and at a loss of exactly what to do. I have now spent half a day here at work with very little done, so better get myself jacked up. I just wish someone would get through to her that it is just not on that she can still have contact with this [censored]. Yes, I call him a [censored] because he sucked her into this (fair enough she went willingly after a while), made her feel sorry for him, then took advantage of her - hey I do know a bit how a mans mind works - all along he was just after getting her in bed, I know his type. he saw this lovely attractive lady who was all upset and he pulled her in rescued her from her problems and succeeded in getting her into his pants. Believe it or not from a mans point of view it is a lot more sex-related than a womans point of view. She is attractive, sexy and a damn good lay. As I have said before - you can see it by his actions - passing crude pornographic jokes onto her, his mind is more on sex than anything else. How do I get through to her that she is possibly on the brink of losing her whole family if she doesnt stop this nonsense? I love her very much but how much am I supposed to swallow, how much more must I just let go by, or is it me that is too apprehensive and expect too much at once. That I am not seeing her feelings and problems clear enough? Maybe she has only been in contact with him once or twice in the last few weeks, but I am not so sure, I cant say her track record is particularly good, is it, or maybe I am oversuspicious and expect too much at once , but then again I feel this has gone on long enough now, its not just a matter of weeks, hey, this all started over a year ago. She has even got me thinking now that I really am the miserable [censored] and blowing this out of proportion, but how can I be expected to not be suspicious or concerned, but I do honestly think that she has a problem. Again last night she wasnt feeling good and was a bit tearful, I said to her she should really get to the doctor and go and talk to him, and not to be afraid to openly talk if she is depressed - She just said, dont worry I am ok - the same attitude all the time. She also said she has put on quite a bit of weight over the last few months and has no enthusiasm or inclination to lose it. None of the enthusiasm that she had before summer last year - but now I see why - both her and the [censored] were both on a weight loss thing as I can remember her saying that he had also lost about 20 pounds early last year and was trying hard to lose some more weight. So, now it is not such a high-priority item on her agenda anymore as she doesnt have to do it for and with him - not that it really matters that much to me, but just another stab-woud that she found it so important to lose weight for him and their relationship last year but it is not so important now that she is not jumping into bed with him, its just me that she has to put up with and satisfy now. She lost an incredible amount of weight before last summer and was at her slimmest since we got married. You know, just maybe, there could be something about this menopause business, as she revealed it last night that the guys at work were kidding her last week because on Wednesday she was feeling very flushed and hot at work, while everyone else was feeling quite cool, she had to take off her jersey and go outside a few times because she was burning up she was so hot. I just cackled and said well maybe it is early menopause and that she should then really go to the doctor and get it checked out - she got quite indignant and said no ways does she have menopause. I am sorry but still do not accept that this menopause, if she really is suffering from it, is the root cause of her actions and behaviour at all. Again I said to her she really needs to go get checked out because she is really ruining her health. Also I stressed again last night to her to go and get her sinus problem sorted out - it was quite obvious that she was suffering from very bad sinus passage inflmation as a result of the sawdust in the air from me cuting up all the wood - even though she didnt help me sweep up, she was still in and out while I was busy on Saturday and Sunday and woke up on Sunday with a very puffy face and very sore sinus passages, there was still a lot of fine sawdst in the air. Again I told her that she should really get to the Workers Compensation Board and see if it is as a result of the chemical fumes that have damaged her (I am absolutely sure of this being a lot of her sinus problems, not just a matter of growing older - I am not exaggerating when I say how much pain she has gone through in the last 3 years since startin to work for that bloody Vision Printing Company - yes, she has always been very sensitive to chemicals and perfumes etc, but absolutely nothing like now) and again stressed to her that I think that the last thing she should be worrying about is the feelings or effect this may have on the bosses and people she worked with at Vision - her health is much much more important than anyone that she worked with there. (I Know the relationship with this [censored] is possibly holding her back on doing something about it.) She said last night that she will maybe call WCB this week. Here's hoping that she does something about it and just doesnt forget about it again when the pain subsides. I am getting to the point of not knowing which way to turn anymore. I just dont know why also that she feels she can still mess the kids around like this after promising our son that she was going to end it all, and now is still in contact with the [censored]. She still wants me to keep the kids out of it, but how can I cover up and just lie to the kids that everything is well, in the meantime she is not being truthful with our son too - this is hurting me too. Maybe I am overreacting again, but I can see that the kids have lost some respect for her, but have been gaining more and more confidence with her so am sitting betwixt and between on whether to mention it to them or just let it go, but then run the risk of them finding out and then disrespecting not only her but also me again. Anyhow let me try and get some work done, I nearly ended up in big trouble at work this morning as some work that my guys had to do this weekend was delayed by a few hours because they couldnt get into the building where they had to do the work after hours, something that I should have made sure was organized Thursday last week, but with this upset with her again last week, I was not thinking very clearly. This was a close call and fortunately, just before the guy was going to give up and go home, someone came out the building and he was able to get in. The work was done a few hours later than scheduled, but so far we have had no complaints from the Customers that were affected by this outage. So here's hoping that this one will go unnoticed. It does sound very mean that I am putting the blame on my home problems for my slipping up at work - but some of it is very true, I do feel very mixed up with everything that is going on. I know I am again feeling very suspicious - yea I need to know for sure how much she has been in contact with him the last few weeks, and for sure I most probably would end up approaching her with her cellphone phonebills if I can get my hands on them and no additional evidence of whether she is actually seeing him or not, but I feel the phone story is sufficient - maybe the monitoring her timing every day will help, but I know she will still challenge this as me treating her like a child and not giving her her space that she needs. So, short of hiring a private detective, which is basically out of the question because of the expense, and she will definitely find out about it when the bills are paid, I am stuffed. Also I know that my cynicism every now and then, like on Saturday most probably does not help matters at all either, so basically I am most probably more at fault than anyone right now for the way things are going. Actually I have got to the point where I am exhausted and half of me is just saying, forget it all, admit defeat, let her do her own thing, whatever she wants - whether it means she wants both of us or whatever and just go on living a lie or whatever else t takes just to stay sane and bugger what the kids think about me for not being able to convince her that she is doing wrong - yes, just let her have her fun and games and I will just go on and try more successfully earn a living to support the family's needs. My feelings and needs for love and intimacy just dont really matter anymore (this sounds pathetic, doesnt it). I just feel I dont have the energy to fight anymore - I have tried to show her it is not right but, like so many other things that have happened in the past, my advice or suggestions just do not mean anything to her. Who am I to complain, we have had 22 pretty good years and must just be fortunate that we have had this in comparison to so many others. So, let her just get on with what she wants in life and take what I can get from her along the way - Yes, I sound very selfish, when she is working so hard and trying to fit everything in at work and at home and cope with her own emotions. I just find it so very very difficult to cope with being there every night and not truly knowing what is going on, even though she says that she does love me but tha I do not believe her. I am sorry but this last discovery has just taken the last strength out of me, so lets see how the next few weeks will pan out , maybe I am blowing it out of proportion, but am getting tired now of trying to hold up my side and just getting kicked in the pants everytime. I am just tired of living with continuous doubt, and fear, and the feeling that whatever I do is not going to make any difference anyhow, she will still do what she wants to, I just feel I cant fight it anymore. I just feel like disappearing away from it all for however long it takes, but know I cannot let the kids down. Sorry, just not feeling all that good today. Anyhow, you say I should be just more or less ignoring her and work on myself, was it not me ignoring her in the first place where all this started - by me concentrating all my efforts to stay employed so as to bring home enough to cover our expenses? I fully understand what you are sayinghere and I am getting closer to telling her to get out if she cannot see reason and the need to break off from him completely. Hopefully our blowup last week will wake her up to the fact again that I am not just going to let her do as she pleases. One of her complaints against me was that I was not understanding and sympathetic to her needs, so have to tread carefully here with her, she will very easily throw it in my face that I am ignoring her and not listening to her and not romancing her etc. I am now tired and going home, had enough for one day. Again last night, after she had her afternoon sleep, as she was so sore wth sinus pain, she couldnt sleep last night and my snoring was disturbing her, so I ended up get up at midnight and sleeping downstairs on the sofa. I am just so curious about everything.I noticed when I checked her cellphone last week and found she had phoned the [censored] (she slipped up this once, usually she clears off the log of outgoing calls she make) - I saw that she had entered *83 before she dialed the number - *836035808. I am wondering why she did this?I said to her last night, tell me, I am curious, why did you dial *83 before you dialed his number, she said I dont know, he told me to do that quite a while ago when I phone him, I said to her, oh, I get the picture, then it most probably doesnt show up on your call listing. She got so upset and gave me hell "Are'nt you ever gonna let this go, you just cant give up and forget about it, you are never going to let me live it down, you are never going to let us get on with our lives" So, I said to her "Well, angel, what do you expect, all I am trying to get is some truth and honesty" She got so mad and said "Dont you call me ANGEL, I am not your angel" and slammed the iron down (she was doing some ironing). Just then our daughter walked in, so I changed the subject and started talking about something else.I bet you the [censored] knows I have been checking her phone, and has told her to do this so that it doesnt show on her call listing, or it doesnt show on his call listing so that his wife finds out they are still in contact.Thanks I get your point as you have written below. I know now that this last time I should have told her straight to leave our home, but again I was too soft because I love her so much, all I want to do is restore our marriage to a position of trust.Yes, my son is still a bit young, but the poor guy has been involved in it right fom the word go so i do feel I have to let him know what is going on, more than once he has asked me if we are going to get divorced, but I have told him I have no intention and I just want her to stop her nonsense, we are a family and have gone through a lot in the last few years and I am not just going to give it all up because of this stupid affair. He has already told my wife that he still has nightmares of seeing the two of them kissing in the park last summer. No wonder he has been experimenting with pot/marijuana - of corse my wife thinks this is just because of the friends he is keeping.One part of me says get rid of her, the other part of me says get this sorted out and get on with life, she has a problem, I have helped her before with problems and I can help her with this.Yes, I know she did it, but I still blame this senseless immoral, big-penised ******* for drawing her in so that he could get into her panties. I am sure he has done this before.How I would love to be able to get hold of his wife and have a good talk with her, but he doesnt have a listed telephone number (only his cellphone), and I only have his P.O. Box mailing address and dont know where they stay. He looks like a real slimy [censored] to me.Would you have felt the same if your boyfriend/husband had found out and kept on checking up on you and got mad when he found out you were still incontact with OM, would you also have tried to push the blame onto your husband for his actions?I will get to the bottom of all this.

Kevan, during my A I did exactly what your W is doing now - especially the business with the cell phone. I told my H that he was treating me like a child, that I had no privacy, etc. My H took my cell phone MANY times in an attempt to discover what was going on. In retrospect, how can I possibly blame him? I denied over and over that there was something going on - even in the face of some pretty damning evidence.I hate to say this, but it's very possible that your W is still seeing the OM. And if she's not and is just in contact with him by phone, it's still a dangerous situation because the A could start up again.As you know, there can be NO CONTACT. Having contact with OM just keeps the door open. It will be almost impossible for your W to recommit to your marriage if OM is waiting in the wings.IMHO, you're not doing anything wrong by questioning your W. You have a right to know what is happening and if she has nothing to hide she shouldn't mind you asking. My H asks me questions on occasion and I answer every one of them. It's a trust-building measure that I'm very happy to do.I'll keep you in my prayers, Kevan. {{{{{BIG HUG}}}}}

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: IMHO, you're not doing anything wrong by questioning your W. You have a right to know what is happening and if she has nothing to hide she shouldn't mind you asking. My H asks me questions on occasion and I answer every one of them. It's a trust-building measure that I'm very happy to do.I'll keep you in my prayers, Kevan. {{{{{BIG HUG}}}}}<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks SUzie, I have had enough, I am tired of fighting, she can do what she wants. I know I am too soft to tell her to go. Weakling #1 Sounds pathetic doesnt it

Kevan, you are NOT a weakling! I know all of this is tiring, but you have to work at it if you want to save your marriage. What I'd suggest is that you return to the counselor - you can't do this alone. Without counseling, I don't think my H and I would be married anymore.BTW, I think your W is VERY foolish to let this go on and possibly lose a special man who loves her very much. I'll keep up the prayers and {{{{Hugs}}}}.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: Kevan, you are NOT a weakling! I know all of this is tiring, but you have to work at it if you want to save your marriage. What I'd suggest is that you return to the counselor - you can't do this alone. Without counseling, I don't think my H and I would be married anymore.BTW, I think your W is VERY foolish to let this go on and possibly lose a special man who loves her very much. I'll keep up the prayers and {{{{Hugs}}}}.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks for the encouragement. You are a wonderful person and your husband is a very very fortunate man to have someone like you.I will just count my blessings and stop moaning.Someday it will come right.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: Kevan, you are NOT a weakling! I know all of this is tiring, but you have to work at it if you want to save your marriage. ........ I'll keep up the prayers and {{{{Hugs}}}}.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How do I get thru to this woman of mine?When I am happy then she seems ok. As soon as I want to talk to her about us, she gets mad.The school phoned my wife yesterday, my 16 year-old son is failing grade 11 English. She asked him what is wrong and he broke down in tears. Says he cant match up to his sister and is battling. The school wants to arrange a session with the school counsellor and have warned my wife if there are any outbursts at the meeting, Kevin will be taken out of the room and it will be over. I havent had the chance to ask my son what he told the teacher of what is wrong and if he mentioned any of the problems we are having at home.I know I cannot blame it all on my wife but I know that the affair and especially with him discovering them kissing in the park has had a drastic effect on him. Then my wife slapping him up when he challenged her to give up her lover and give the OM the gold bracelet back. My wife will not accept this and just says he is just lazy, prefers to be out with his friends and he needs to be better disciplined by me, I am too soft on him. She says he has just got to get his backside into gear and do some work. There is nothing further to discuss. His excuses are just a cop-out. He is never home when she gets home. I told her maybe its because she gets home so late every night - she just got mad with me.I am still waiting for the right opportunity to approach her again about her cellphone account and why she has again changed the mailing address to her work address, but will have to wait for the right opportunity.I am just completely tired out from this continuous battle.I told my wife on Sunday night that I love her more than she realises, but cannot take it anymore, she is just breaking my heart and that I am breaking up inside. She seemed a bit taken aback by this. She did actually look like she was feeling sorry. By bedtime I was really feeling like one big knot inside, but still kept a happy face. But there is still no forthcoming comment or commitment from her that she has ended it or is going to end it completely with the OM.I have laso found out why she dials *82# in front of his number when she calls him on her cellphone. It activates his caller ID so that he can see that she is calling him - the [censored] - just so that he can see its her and answer accordingly depending on whose company he is in at the time.I will catch the swine out yet one of these days and make a real fool out of him.

Kevan, I read the paragraph about your son with great concern. Regardless of what your W thinks, her actions have had a serious effect on him. I can tell you first hand about the effect a mother's actions have on a child because my H and I went thru that with his exW. Kevan, your son needs counseling and he needs it NOW. You've said that your W thinks it's too expensive, but there can be no better investment than in your and your son's mental health.Your W is still deep in the fog, and unfortunately it is hurting everyone in the family. Her continued contact with OM makes it impossible for her to see the situation clearly.If she continues with OM, you may have to resort to Plan B. I'd keep up Plan A for a while longer, but somewhere along the line you'll need to assert yourself. Just know that you have lots of support here. Feel free to e-mail me if you need to vent (susie7753@yahoo.com).The fact that your W seemed sad when you said that she's breaking your heart could be a positive sign. Just keep showing her that you love her. I know it's difficult when you're hurting so badly, but you can do it - I get the impression that you don't give up easily! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Kevan, Suzie is SOOOO right about the fog. You're right to not believe your W right now. I suspect there's more going on also. Are you in an actice Plan A? My opinion -- as hard, hard, hard as it is, put the pain and anger aside and take care of 1) yourself and 2) those kids. Mine are much younger but suffered so much after dday, and they didn't have the bonus trauma of actually WITNESSING a parents infidelity like your son did. I would detatch emotionally, physically, until she decided to be truthful and civil. Maybe Plan B time? I don't know. She sounds like she's so wrapped up in her own little world that she can't even see how she's affecting her children, let alone you. And some good advice that I got today which you might consider also. I cannot control the choice my H makes, but I have complete control over my choices. I have in the past chosen to act and react to my emotions, as have you. We need to change that for our own good!Hope you get through today okay. You're in my thoughts.Snow

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowwhite: Kevan, Suzie is SOOOO right about the fog. You're right to not believe your W right now. I suspect there's more going on also. ...Hope you get through today okay. You're in my thoughts.Snow<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks again all you good guys out there.I phoned the teacher today and filled her in with what has happened in the last year - not to shed a bad light on my wife, but at least to support and protect my son. My daughter is right behind me with this too.If this is going to cause another blow-up with my wife, then so be it. It is enough nonsense now and the kid is still hurting badly.She hasnt even sat down and told him whether she has given it up eith the pig or not. My son is too afraid to ask in case it causes another scene. I talk with him whenever I get the chance, but he doesnt even want to talk much to me about it. He is going away on a rock-climbing and hiking weekend this coming weekend.Thanks again for the support.One day up one day down, but there is light, and yes, I do not give up easily, especially when I know I am right.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: Thanks again all you good guys out there.She hasnt even sat down and told him whether she has given it up with the pig or not. My son is too afraid to ask in case it causes another scene. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well another weekend gone, quite good too.My son went on his rock-climbing trip down to Washington state and thoroughly enjoyed it - just what he needed - to get away.Our weekend wasnt bad. Despite her regular Saturday "shopping" trip, she was with me most of the weekend. We went away for the day on Sunday and stayed over in a hotel - even managed to make love the next morning, although I could feel her heart wasnt in it and she put up some resistance - almost like she was just doing it for my sake. She is still not intimate with me at all. It is always me looking for a hug and a kiss. She did have a good orgasm though, although I didnt, My penis just isnt so sensitive at the moment and I battle to have an orgasm sometimes, maybe it is the anti-deps I am on - Celexa. Also she does still feel quite soft and stretched inside. I always used to have an orgasm very quickly, almost premature ejaculation most of the time. She was always very tight before. Maybe it is just my imagination.So, tomorrow my wife is going to a meeting with my son and the school counsellor. She has been doing her best to get me to go instead of her, but I have made sure I cannot go. I know she is not happy about this again, because she feels that the responsibility of the children falls on her everytime and I am just side-stepping and dont want to take the responsibility. But this time I know that she must go and sort it out with the counsellors. Lets see if they have the guts to stand up to her and tell her that my son needs help and is still distraught over her affair. I wonder if they have the backbone to do it. Yes, she still feels that it is just a load of nonsense and that my son is just looking for excuses to cover his laziness.Maybe these teachers will just say something that wiill wkae her up into realising that she must now come right and stop her nonsense.She also still does not realise the friction she is causing by keeping her cellphone bill "private". This is something that I must still straighten out with her. If she thinks I must trust her under these circumstances she has got another thought coming.So, how else do I get through to her, when she refuses to talk to anyone about the affair (except OM of course). ?????????????????????????????????????

Kevan, it's possible that you can obtain copies of your W's cell phone bill. Call the company and see if they can help you.Glad to hear that your W will be the one to go to the school counselor, although I don't know if they will say anything to her about her A (they may feel it's none of their business and may simply mention that they're aware of problems at home).Let us know how it goes. {{{{Hugs}}}}

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: Kevan, it's possible that you can obtain copies of your W's cell phone bill. Call the company and see if they can help you. Let us know how it goes. {{{{Hugs}}}}<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You dont know how much I would love to get my hands on copies of her cellphone bills but cannot let her know what I am doing.Well, back to work again today, was a good weekend all in all, even though my wife didn’t really enjoy our day out at Harrison. she says sitting around a dusty campsite and around a smoky fire is not really her scene, although we did have a nice walk through the forests around the lake. She says she much prefers the beach with some nice waves and sand to walk on. I guess everyone has their own thing. For me it was nice to get out for the day and relax and chat and have a few beers with our friends (maybe a few too many - but what the heck, we were there for the whole day and evening, so who's counting, don’t do it all the time). It is a lovely little lake we went to, no speedboats allowed so very little noise, even though it was a bit chilly. So of course I know I am again not in the best of books for shirking my responsibilities with Our son and the school and counselor and leaving it all to My wife - as she has told me many times. I do feel a bit guilty about this type of thing and suppose do in my own way excuse it by saying that I talk to the kids whenever I can and try and discuss things with them. Again this morning I have these doubts - why still the secrecy with the phone account? I also wonder if she did really give him back the gold bracelet from Christmas? Why cant I get rid of these doubts, why are they still there so strong? Am I dwelling too much on this, am I not giving her a chance, am I making too much of a big thing of it? Is it because she still has doubts in me? Why the constant resistance to anything about this affair and friendship from her? Why have I had to force everything out of her? I do still feel like I am forcing everything my way, am I missing something here? I managed to have a bit of a chat with one of our lady-friends while we were camping - she too is still puzzled by my wife's actions - as she says, my wife will not speak to her about it at all, and has not mentioned it to her at all, but knows she wont, because my wife will not hear anything from them that she wants to hear, only the truth. I really do not want to poison everyone against my wife, even though it may seem to the contrary right now, but I do really want to try and help her get over her problems too. This lady-friend also spoke to some of her relations while in SA who are into counseling (didn’t mention our names though - just the problems we have been having). They said that until My wife is willing to come out and address her fears and problems she has had since she was young and the effect of her parents divorce on her etc. etc. that she will never deal with this clearly and openly. I know this is an answer that you do often hear from counselors, maybe sometimes just too often and we tend to brush it off as another cop-out, that everything is due to a bad childhood etc., but maybe there is some truth in it. I know I have often said too that it is a load of hogwash and an easy way of just blaming problems on bad childhood. I don’t really think that I want my children to end up with these types of hang-ups one day too, they have enough to deal with these days without something like this hanging around their necks too. I suppose we all have our hang-ups somewhere. It is just so difficult when someone is so stubborn and will not see some reason and will not accept this type of help - almost like they don’t want to admit to a "weakness" in themselves It always seems the same, by the end of the weekend I am feeling better about things, but one day into the week and again I have my doubts about what she is doing and if she is still speaking to him from work or after work. Almost as if I feel ok when she is with me but as soon as she isn’t, then everything comes flooding back again. Somehow I have got to concentrate more on my job too. Lets see how it goes with the counselor - but like Our daughter said this morning - the big issue the counselors have to deal with, is not with My wife, but rather helping Our son through this rough patch. I am going to the specialist this week to see if there is anything that can be done about the snoring. Yes my mind is working overtime again. I went for a walk at lunchtime again and was just thinking... If anything she has at least proven to herself, if no-one else, that she is still attractive enough to win the heart and soul of someone else by what she has done in the last year. What made me think of this again was I remembered another close friend, his wife, my wife and myself sitting on the beach early last year summer and we were joking around and I can distinctly remember my friend passing a comment that neither of the two ladies had any chance of picking someone up at their age, they were passed it. I am sure that my friend meant absolutely no harm by that comment, it was all just jokingly and can remember thinking at the time, you don’t realize how wrong you are. I don’t think this is what triggered it off as I am sure things were well under way with the affair by this time although these friends knew absolutely nothing about it, but just wonder if this added any fuel to the fire with My wife in being more determined to prove herself capable. Of course if I had to raise this with my wife I would be told I am off my head and just cant lay things aside or stop laying guilt on her.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Susie7753: Kevan, it's possible that you can obtain copies of your W's cell phone bill. Call the company and see if they can help you.Let us know how it goes. {{{{Hugs}}}}<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, I havent been around here for a while, anyhow, cant say things ahve improved much except I am just gettin very impatient with her nonsenseSo, hows this for a classic example of me being insensitive:She went out last night to a "function" with the divorcee buddy that I just love to hate ( at the church she goes to-), she phoned me after work to tell me she was on her way and both kids had gone out too, I said I may go to a club here downtown where one of the ladies we work with was singing in a band and had invited us all, straight away I could hear that she wasnt very happy with this, but I told her I had to come home first with my friend and then take our car as he wasnt going with - I told her just to leave me some money for dinner.Anyhow, by the time I got home I was too tired and didnt feel like driving back downtown, so stayed at home, bought a Kentucky Burger and did some work on the computer at home. She came home just after 10pm, looked tired and irritable and walked in the door with some papers, sweater etc in her hands. I looked up and said hi, how are you and asked her what she had in her hands - she looked at me grumpily and said what does it matter, and walked off. I went on working. She had a chat with my daughter in the livingroom about her evening, but I couldnt hear what they were saying. She came back into the kitchen (I was thinking - it would have been nice is she came and gave me a kiss hello), she asked me if I went out, I said no, I was too tired, then went on working, then I asked her how her "Party" went, she retorted "It wasnt a PARTY, but it was nice" and started fiddling around.I then stood up, went into the kitchen and said to her, well, am I going to get a kiss hello, and asked her what was wrong with her, why was she so peed off, she got so mad then said "Well, you dont even move or pick your head up from the PC when I walk in what do you expect, then you start questioning me..." I said well, I was in the middle of typing something up, just thought it would be nice if for once you came and gave me a kiss hello, and what about all the past months that I have come home and had to stand there like a fool waiting to get a kiss from you when you were busy in the kitchen or sometimes walked past me a few tmes before you were ready to kiss me hello, she just got mad again and said "Oh, please just dont start with me again, I feel sick from the desserts, I just want to go upstairs and get sick" and walked upstairs to the bathroom and closed the door.So should I have been more sensitive there and dropped whatever I was doing and jumped up and kissed her hello and asked her all about her evening immdiately when she walked in?Ten minutes later I went upstairs, asked her if she wanted some ENO's, just got grumble at, which I ignored, then asked her again what her evening was like, she then told me how lovely it was, fashion show, someone gave their testimony, they were all served by the husbands etc. I said it sounded like it was very nice.As it was getting late, I then asked her if it was ok with her if I had a shower, but that she didnt have to leave, she could stay and talk while I was showering, she just said no, and walked out.At around 11:10, I went upstairs to kiss her goodnight and then said to her well, I dont suppose there is much chance of a cuddle and some intimacy before bedtime, then is there, she just glared at me and said, cant you see I am feeling sick and besides I am very tired and need to get to sleep, so I just said goodnight and wlaked out and closed the door and went downstairs. But of course she never put the light out until after 11:30.... too tired to have a bit of a cuddle, but not too tired to sit and do whatever else.......This morning, when I was on my way out to work, she was in the bathroom getting ready to shower, I knocked and walked in to kiss her goodbye, and caught her standing there in the nude, she was quite upset, pushed me away, then gave me a quick kiss and got in the shower. A few minutes later I went back in and asked her if she had a few bucks for me for lunch as I didnt make anything for myself, she was still in the shower and snapped at me "well, I gave you $20 for gas and so on last night, what have you done, have you spent it all?"I said no, buy I did but myself dinner and must still put in gas to get to work as she left the tank empty for me. She then said "Oh, then just take some out my purse, but I dont have much anyhow"This sucks, getting cross-questioned and given the third degree over $20 and a few bucks for lunch - this really pees me off, but yet if I draw some cash myself she insists that I tell her so that she knows where it is all going so that she can manage the budget better...................The sooner she gets the hell back to SA I think will be better for both of us, and at least I see she has made some enquiries on plane tickets ( I asked her last night if the divorcee girlfriend ***** [not using those words] who knows everything and can always get everything cheaper, can still get some discounted tickets for us as she said she could 2 weeks ago, but she said no, they have gone up in price). She has made some enquiries for prices for the middle of this month, but has found out it will cost about $500 more than if she waits until September, I just told her, well, not to worry about that, she has to go and finished with............With her gone at least my frustrations will be quite reduced and not having her there and getting frustrated because I am so attracted to her but not allowed to get close to her....This doesnt sound good does it????I could also go on all day telling you about the grief we have had from the in-laws, but I have already mentioned a fair amount to you before and really wouldnt want to bore you any further. By the way I get on very well with her real dad and the lady he married (not her stepdad, he is a real *******) and we have always been good friends, even now.Hugs

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: So, hows this for a classic example of me being insensitive: Hugs<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey I am also tired now of being the one on anti-deps, ending up at counselors, sleeping on the sofa, when it wasnt me that had the affair...................How much does a person have to take????

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: So, hows this for a classic example of me being insensitive...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, actually, kevan, to be perfectly honest...You really have provided a classic example of insensitive behavior, and yes I mean your behavior, not just your wife's.Would you like a blow-by-blow analysis?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume: Well, actually, kevan, to be perfectly honest...You really have provided a classic example of insensitive behavior, and yes I mean your behavior, not just your wife's.Would you like a blow-by-blow analysis?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, please I am not joking, I need every bit of help I can get, if I am doing things wrong all over.

Don't assume my analysis is 100% valid, but this is what I see... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: She came home just after 10pm, looked tired and irritable and walked in the door with some papers, sweater etc in her hands. I looked up and said hi, how are you and asked her what she had in her hands - she looked at me grumpily and said what does it matter, and walked off. I went on working. She had a chat with my daughter in the livingroom about her evening, but I couldnt hear what they were saying. She came back into the kitchen (I was thinking - it would have been nice is she came and gave me a kiss hello), she asked me if I went out, I said no, I was too tired, then went on working, then I asked her how her "Party" went, she retorted "It wasnt a PARTY, but it was nice" and started fiddling around. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So far, so good. You observe her physical and emotional state (tired, irritable, and grumpy), and you politely acknowledge her presence with expressions of interest, but you don't try to push into her space at a time in which such a move appeared likely to be unwelcome.However, your thought that "it would have been nice" for her to have given you a kiss hello is about to get you into trouble. (This is usually the case for "it would have been nice" thoughts. It's better to think in terms of "it would be nice", since this shift in tense removes the implicit disappointment and sense of failure.) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I then stood up, went into the kitchen and said to her, well, am I going to get a kiss hello, and asked her what was wrong with her, why was she so peed off, she got so mad then said "Well, you dont even move or pick your head up from the PC when I walk in what do you expect, then you start questioning me..." I said well, I was in the middle of typing something up, just thought it would be nice if for once you came and gave me a kiss hello, and what about all the past months that I have come home and had to stand there like a fool waiting to get a kiss from you when you were busy in the kitchen or sometimes walked past me a few tmes before you were ready to kiss me hello, she just got mad again and said "Oh, please just dont start with me again, I feel sick from the desserts, I just want to go upstairs and get sick" and walked upstairs to the bathroom and closed the door.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>By saying "Am I going to get a kiss hello" instead of simply asking for a kiss, you are subtly criticizing her. You are implying that she should have given you a kiss but failed to do so. And yet you were in the middle of doing something, which discouraged her from taking such an action, and you did not even get up, apparently expecting her to make the entire effort herself instead of meeting her halfway. Then, instead of expressing concern for her by asking if something is wrong, you assume you know how she is feeling ("peed off") and you not only assert that something is wrong, but you declare that something is wrong with her. Not only are you attempting to define your wife's reality for her, but you are disparaging her in the process.Now, I realize that in all probability this was just a poor choice of language on your part, indicating a lack of skill in communication, but the effect on your wife is not surprising.So now your wife is angry. And sure, her recasting of your expressions of interest as an interrogation was unfair and antagonistic, but instead of making allowances for her mood you take the bait and go defensive. No, actually, you go offensive and drag past hurts into the discussion with language such as "if for once" and "what about all the past months". And to make matters worse, what you accuse your wife of doing all those past months is exactly what you had just done yourself, and defended yourself for doing!It seems that you have an established ritual in your home (possibly tacit) in which whenever one of you comes home, your arrival is acknowledged with a kiss. However, it is apparent that you are not clear on who is responsible for initiating this action. When your wife came home, you expected her to initiate the kiss, even though you were busy with something. When you came home, though, it seems you still expected your wife to initiate the kiss, and to do so immediately, even though she might be in the middle of something. And instead of being patient or taking the initiative yourself, you chose to stand around feeling aggrieved. If you couldn't be bothered to drop what you were doing and greet your wife with a kiss, why should she be expected to do so?Now, kevan, I'm really not trying to be hard on you here. I'm really not accusing you of anything nasty or petty. This is just an example of what happens when expectations are not examined or clarified. I'm guessing that this problem occurred only because you never thought about this before. We all have unconscious expectations like this, and we all get into trouble because of them. Unfortunately, neither we nor our spouses catch onto what's happening until the trouble has already occurred. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So should I have been more sensitive there and dropped whatever I was doing and jumped up and kissed her hello and asked her all about her evening immdiately when she walked in?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, you should have been less sensitive there and not let it bother you that she didn't rush to give you a kiss. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Ten minutes later I went upstairs, asked her if she wanted some ENO's, just got grumble at, which I ignored, then asked her again what her evening was like, she then told me how lovely it was, fashion show, someone gave their testimony, they were all served by the husbands etc. I said it sounded like it was very nice. As it was getting late, I then asked her if it was ok with her if I had a shower, but that she didnt have to leave, she could stay and talk while I was showering, she just said no, and walked out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>OK, so tempers have cooled and conversation is polite and respectful. You make a bid to terminate the conversation, leaving an opening for the conversation to continue if your wife so desired. She declined and everything is hunky-dory.I hope you didn't find anything about this to be upsetting. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>At around 11:10, I went upstairs to kiss her goodnight and then said to her well, I dont suppose there is much chance of a cuddle and some intimacy before bedtime, then is there, she just glared at me and said, cant you see I am feeling sick and besides I am very tired and need to get to sleep, so I just said goodnight and wlaked out and closed the door and went downstairs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Uh, oh. You attempt to protect yourself against rejection by presuming it, but in so doing you once again subtly criticize your wife. You let her know that you expect to be rejected, but that you will nevertheless be disappointed if you are. How's that supposed to make her feel, telling her that you expect her to disappoint you? Kind of humiliating, don't you think? Furthermore, you demonstrate that you haven't really taken seriously her previous complaint of feeling tired and sick. You're going to ask for attention anyhow. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But of course she never put the light out until after 11:30.... too tired to have a bit of a cuddle, but not too tired to sit and do whatever else.......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Can you not understand this, kevan? Any kind of intimacy, even "a bit of a cuddle" is going to require some investment of emotional energy from your wife, at least when she is not in a receptive frame of mind. Whereas 20 minutes to gear down a busy mind in preparation for sleep is quite normal, even (or especially) when exhausted. I doubt your wife was making excuses. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This morning, when I was on my way out to work, she was in the bathroom getting ready to shower, I knocked and walked in to kiss her goodbye, and caught her standing there in the nude, she was quite upset, pushed me away, then gave me a quick kiss and got in the shower.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You crossed her boundaries, however inadvertently. Apparently knocking and entering without permission is not an adequate enough ritual to safeguard her sense of privacy. Perhaps in the future you should ask for permission to enter. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>A few minutes later I went back in and asked her if she had a few bucks for me for lunch as I didnt make anything for myself, she was still in the shower and snapped at me "well, I gave you $20 for gas and so on last night, what have you done, have you spent it all?" I said no, buy I did but myself dinner and must still put in gas to get to work as she left the tank empty for me. She then said "Oh, then just take some out my purse, but I dont have much anyhow" This sucks, getting cross-questioned and given the third degree over $20 and a few bucks for lunch - this really pees me off, but yet if I draw some cash myself she insists that I tell her so that she knows where it is all going so that she can manage the budget better................... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If your wife is the one managing the budget, then her questions are quite legitimate. And after all she did let you have the money. I see nothing untoward in her pointing out that she was a bit short of money herself.I can see how constantly asking your wife for money would be frustrating, but if you find your current agreement on money management to be overly confining, then I'd suggest you negotiate something different. Perhaps you could agree to withdraw a certain amount of money yourself each week for meals, and take the responsibility yourself for making sure you don't go over-budget. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>With her gone at least my frustrations will be quite reduced and not having her there and getting frustrated because I am so attracted to her but not allowed to get close to her....This doesnt sound good does it????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your frustrations are reduced when your wife is gone because your expectations are reduced. It sounds like you need to learn to manage your expectations better.I hope this analysis has helped, kevan. The problems I see here are with your approach are all relatively easily corrected (except for the bit about managing expectations - that's a tough one).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume: Don't assume my analysis is 100% valid, but this is what I see... Your frustrations are reduced when your wife is gone because your expectations are reduced. It sounds like you need to learn to manage your expectations better.I hope this analysis has helped, kevan. The problems I see here are with your approach are all relatively easily corrected (except for the bit about managing expectations - that's a tough one).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for the inout, much apprciated - you have helped on many points here - but believe me, I have tried many of these approaches in the last 6 months, but still get stonewalled, ignored, etc.... Yes I have become oversinsitive myself to my wife's reactions too.Believe me after 22 years a person can tell when their partner is tired and when they are peed off... There is a difference, I do know my wife's moods - maybe I am just not that sensitive when responding to them.Yes, as you say in some cases I have been overreacting - thanks for pointing this out.One thing - the bathroom scenario - for 22 years we have always been very open in the bathroom, she has joined me in the shower, walked in and out while I was in the shower, i have been free to enter WITHOUT knocking when she is bathing/preparing to bathe, she has often sat and cahtted while I was in the shower or bath, she used to before even give me a warm hug while we were both naked in the bathroom etc. etc. Yes, believe it or not it was not a "closed off" area most of the time. I am talking about the bathroom, not the toilet.I may have mentioned this in a previous posting, she now keeps her body-hair down to a "bare" minimum in compariosn to the last 22 years, but now it is completely private - me seeing my wife in any stage of undress is just about forbidden - would this not make any loving husband who has been naturally free and been living in a free environment for 22 years with an attractive woman who was exactly the same, now wonder and get frustrated and upset when doors are closed and locked in his face? It seems like she is no longer part of the marriage we had before - now its closed shop, because another man has seen her naked body - in a better condition than what I was allowed to see it?????I would love some response from the ladies out there on this one too.NOW, since the affair, I am not allowed near, everything is done behind closed doors, I am invading her privacy, even when she is getting dressed/undressed in the bedroom with the bedroom door open...........Yes, for 22 years, we always kissed each other hello, even while she was having the affair, I used to come home in the wintertime, with my big coat on, before I took it off she used to come and snuggle into my coat and give me a hug and a kiss, no matter what she was busy doing......... now....... and you wonder why I am getting upset and defensive about it????Am I wrong or missing something here?Yes, you are right, I must change some of my responses to be less aggressive and more understanding - but after being faced with 9 moths of aggresiveness and irritableness from my wife it gets to the point where I am sure any person will get their back up... After having 9 months of being told that you are invading her privacy, being too pushy (when all you are looking for is some warmth, intimacy and assuredness of her love for you), being constantly snapped at no matter what you say, being pulled down in front of friends, I could go on all day..... doesnt a person have the right to be upset and defensive?There was absolutely no reason why she couldnt have walked over to me - 5 feet from where she came in the door, and kissed me on the cheek, if I had to walk past her like that I would never hear the end of it.....She has changed and become a very cold person since her affair and all I am seeking is some intimacy, warmth and affection - yes for reassurance that she is still my wife and she loves me like she says she does...

That was a great analysis, Gnome De Plume.... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: Thanks for the inout, much apprciated - you have helped on many points here - but believe me, I have tried many of these approaches in the last 6 months, but still get stonewalled, ignored, etc.... Yes I have become oversinsitive myself to my wife's reactions too.Believe me after 22 years a person can tell when their partner is tired and when they are peed off... There is a difference, I do know my wife's moods - maybe I am just not that sensitive when responding to them.Yes, as you say in some cases I have been overreacting - thanks for pointing this out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Kevan,Maybe it's not so much WHAT you're doing/saying....it seems to me to be the WAY you are doing/saying it. Like GDP said....you are inherently assuming things about your wife and including them in your language to her....that would pi$$ me off too.....it would always put me on the defensive....having to defend your "assumptions" that I was pissed off, tired, etc.Yes, you might KNOW what mood I was in. But including that information in your language to me is what I'm talking about. The thing is, it's hard to tell when to include and when NOT to include. Example:A) Your wife walks in with stuff in her hands. You don't assume you know what it is and ask her. It pi$$es her off.B) It appears to you that your wife is upset, so you ask "why are you so upset?" (assuming she's upset) It pi$$es her off.In example A....you are irritating her by asking an unimportant question....what DOES it matter what's in her hands?In example B....you are assuming that she's upset, instead of asking her is something is bothering her, does she want to talk. I don't know if you see the difference, because it's very subtle. But it's there.I know, because my H did the same thing to me. I always felt like I was defending myself (even during the good times)....it got sooooo irritating. I always felt like he thought he knew me BETTER than I knew myself! And maybe he did....in some areas. But I still wanted him to give me the benefit of the doubt that I knew myself and my thoughts, feelings, etc. I wanted him to respect that fact that I felt I knew best for me.I know it's hard to fight right now...but it appears from me that you still have some sort of chance to keep this marriage going. I didn't have a chance to read all the details of this conversation, but you guys gotta get into counseling....individually and as a couple. You're at a stalemate and somethings gotta break it.Hang in there....It's pretty crappy when the BS has to do so much of the work. But whether she had an affair or not, it sounds like BOTH of you need to work at the marriage. Don't minimize your work by focusing on her work. Aloha, Mrs.O [This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited June 07, 2001).]

Hello Kevan, how are you doing? You might have read my thread, i think it was you who posted that you feel like my W at the moment. I don't know why I'm posting this, being in a mess myself I am probably not the best person you'd like to hear from. Although the situation is different, I am on ur W's side of the fence. Unlike you my W hardly ever brings up the subject of A or OW. If she did insists I would share with her some information, just enough to give her an idea of how I am feeling. The thing is the truth will hurt her and its true what someone said in here - they will tell you what they want you to know either to protect you or themselves.I know you can't just forget and erase everything that has happened. I honestly can't but my W seems to think it's possible, I am not sure if she is in denial. She doesn't suffocate me too much hence I don't get irratated much or go into arguments with her. Instead I am always on auto pilot I try to just let it pass me. Sometimes I am angry at her, I don't show it though, I try to limit my sarcasm. I am resentful of the fact that I am not with OW. Of course once again our circumstances are different so she may not feel the same way. Anyway as for any psychical contact, it's been very hard on me. I can't even hold my W's hand when we are walking. She would grab my hand and I would just slowly slide it away and put it my pocket. When I cry and she wants to hold me to comfort me I feel very uncomfortable. She asked me to give her a hug, and I had to practically force myself. Don't even mention sexual contact, she has indicated to me a few times how much she wanted me, but I can't. That's the last thing I want to do. And I am a MAN and my sexual & intimacy needs was one of the things that wasn't met for years which became one of the reasons for the demise of my M.I am not to clear here - does she ever talk of the affair? Is she still seeing the OM? How does she feel about you?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mrs.O: That was a great analysis, Gnome De Plume.... Kevan,Hang in there....It's pretty crappy when the BS has to do so much of the work. But whether she had an affair or not, it sounds like BOTH of you need to work at the marriage. Don't minimize your work by focusing on her work. Aloha, Mrs.O [This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited June 07, 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you too Mrs. O - often people like me need to be told things more than once before it sinks in - and very specifically too.Just a few pointers"The p**d off story - I know this may sound defensive anf two wrongs dont make a right - but after living for overa year with my wife who has become incredibly moody, gets mad for nothing at all ( I am then not even allowed to ask her whats troubling her), but if I for some reason show my hurt, get upset over something - she attacks me straight away with "What are you p**ed off about now" or "So now you are p**d off with me again?", believe me it is not something that I have started, this is something that she has given me a hard time about for many many years, if she is uoset or mad - I have to just tread carefully and step around her, If I am upset or get mad, she immediately takes offense, gets her back up, just assumes its her, and gets mad with me... Sorry this has actually got to the point where I also need to stand upand say, hey, I got feelings too, I also get hurt, I also get upset, and not always necessarily with you - but give me a break too, I am not the perfect person...The counselling issue - read this whole posting, maybe it will give you more insight - yes I have approached many things from the wrong angle - It took me 7 months after the affair was brought out into the open by my son discovering them kissing in the park after work, before I started looking for help, because I was respecting my wife's "privacy" concerning the affair, but in the meantime I was losing my mind and not knowing what was going thru her mind. I had pains in my chest, went to the doctor, they checked me out thoroughly, found nothing wrong physically and asked me what was troubling me - I told them - the first thing they said was that she was being very unfair to me and had to give it up with OM immediately - I went home and told her this - she lost it, said I was being "Possessive" and "Controlling" and that he was still just a friend.Only then did I find Marriagebuilders, found a counsellor, started on anti-deps - she s not interested at all in MB, refuses to even look at the notes I have printed off MB, is very upset because I went to a counsellor (doesnt see how a outsider can fix anything) and just wants me to get over it and forget it all... I want to fix what I have done wrong, I buyher flowers regularly, send her love-cards often, take her out over the weekends to the pub, restaurants etc. Stay at home and do the ironing and washing over weekends while she spends most of the day at the shops and malls. I wake her up with a cup of coffee every day. I tell her more than once every day that I love and appreciate her, I compliment her regularly on how lovely and attractive she looks, I do not complain when she buys herself new clothes (she averages about 2 clothing articles per week) I turn the bedclothes down for her every night before bedtime and make sure she has something light to drink at bedtime, so she can take her birth-control pills (I have had a vasectomy by the way, but she is on the pill for menstrual regulation problems - guess it makes it handy too when you have had or are having sex with another person). I sleep downstairs on the sofa as my snoring keeps her awake and she is a very light sleeper (doing this for 9 months now).She goes and visits her friends during the week or over weekends, but tehn gets upset if I am a bit upset when she comes home late, or if I phone her while she is out, or after work while she is out and about between 4:30 pm and 6:00 pm.I have been out with my friedns occasionally on a Friday night, and when I come home after 10:00 pm she is mad and fed-up because I dont tell her where I am, where I have been and when I am getting home.........Dont I just sound like the perfect husband - next joke....My son is failing at school - has lost interest, has experimented with MArijuana - I have been basically told it is my fault because I dont discipline him enough. My son threatened to move out (in Grade 11, 16 years old) if we dont stop fighting - says he cannot concentrate on his schoolwork, told her if she cannot give it up completely with OM he is going to leave - she got so mad she ended up slapping him through the face and around the head. But she has still not come back and told him that she has given it up with OM, he is still too scared to ask her again as he doesnt want another fight and get beaten up again (not that he cannot defend himself - he is a toughie). I have had to ask her if she has definitely told OM its completely over - at first she said she will just try and avoid him and his phonecalls, then says she has sorted it out, but then 3 weeks ago I find she had been talking to him.... She says she wants out cannot take this anymore - needs a break from all of us - but never gets to the point where she goes, just stays at home and is frustrated and tired and grumpy (not all the time though) and gets upset at the smallest thing. She wants to go back to South Africa and see her sick mother, but keeps on putting it off, has threatened that she will go and not come back........Its all there read my whole posting....She WILL NOT discuss the affair, refuses completely to go for counselling, says she is also depressed, but refuses to go to the doctor about it, says no-one can help her with the way she feels......

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by painforever: Hello Kevan, how are you doing? You might have read my thread, i think it was you who posted that you feel like my W at the moment. I don't know why I'm posting this, being in a mess myself I am probably not the best person you'd like to hear from. ....I am not to clear here - does she ever talk of the affair? Is she still seeing the OM? How does she feel about you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey, I am open to any views as longas they are open and honest - it does help me too to try and understand from the other persons' perspective, no matter how puzzling it may be at times:As I have said above, she NEVER mentions the affair, I do not know if she is still in contact with OM, if I mention it she goes off the handle, but will not tell me the real truth, has NEVER openly come to me and said, ok thats it, I have told him it is all over, I have ALWAYS had to appraoch her about it - then have to expect resistance and anger from her - she just wants me to forget about it totally, put it out of my mind, ignore that she may still be talking to him, ignore the fact that her cellphone billl goes to her work address, not to home (she re-directed it to OM address September last year [yes, after the affair was discovered], I found out about it the day before we were going on holiday to Mexico in October last year, and forced her to change it back to our address, now 4 months ago, she changed it to her work address, and is mad because I found out about it and still insist that it is only fair that she be open and honest about it and let me see her bill and call details.... and is totally indignant and does not understand why I got mad and upset when OM gave her a 18karat gold bracelet for Christmas - which she was wearing on Christmas day and I discovered while she was opening the Christmas present from me... even though EVERYONE, counsellors, friends, family, that I have told have said that she shouldnt have even accepted it.....Thats enough about my hurt - you are all at least making me more and more aware of accepting that she is hurting too and needs to be left alone..Just find it so very very difficult to stay away from someone I love so dearly want to hold and love and protect and be with for the rest of my life.....Keep posting "painforever" we can all learn something from each other - your life and marriage is not over either, if you really want to love your wife again with all your heart you can do it, many people have overcome larger obstacles than we have, you have found the right place for advice and assistance...Believe it or not, my heart goes out to you too, very much....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: I do know my wife's moods - maybe I am just not that sensitive when responding to them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not convinced that you lack sensitivity as much as you lack skills. As Mrs.O said, it's the way you say things.Unfortunately, it sounds as though you may be hampered in the development of your communication skills by your wife's tendency to take affront at anything. Without accurate feedback, the skills are much more difficult to develop. Nevertheless, it's worth working on. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>One thing - the bathroom scenario - for 22 years we have always been very open in the bathroom, she has joined me in the shower, walked in and out while I was in the shower, i have been free to enter WITHOUT knocking when she is bathing/preparing to bathe, she has often sat and cahtted while I was in the shower or bath, she used to before even give me a warm hug while we were both naked in the bathroom etc. etc. Yes, believe it or not it was not a "closed off" area most of the time...NOW, since the affair, I am not allowed near, everything is done behind closed doors, I am invading her privacy, even when she is getting dressed/undressed in the bedroom with the bedroom door open...........<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It doesn't really matter what the rules were for the last 22 years, though, does it? Whether you like it or not, it seems that your wife has changed the rules. You can continue to behave as though the old rules still apply, but if you do you will only cause problems.No, it's not fair, but that's the way it is. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...now it is completely private - me seeing my wife in any stage of undress is just about forbidden - would this not make any loving husband who has been naturally free and been living in a free environment for 22 years with an attractive woman who was exactly the same, now wonder and get frustrated and upset when doors are closed and locked in his face? It seems like she is no longer part of the marriage we had before - now its closed shop, because another man has seen her naked body - in a better condition than what I was allowed to see it?????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The frustration is natural, of course. But I doubt very much that your wife's attitudes and behaviors have much to do with what "another man" has seen or done, or with any particular "attributes" he might have. This is your own sense of inadequacy coming out again.I really don't think jealousy is helpful. Your wife's continued involvement with him is interfering with your relationship and her own happiness, but comparing yourself with him in any way is pointless. This is not about you and him. At least in my opinion. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yes, for 22 years, we always kissed each other hello, even while she was having the affair, I used to come home in the wintertime, with my big coat on, before I took it off she used to come and snuggle into my coat and give me a hug and a kiss, no matter what she was busy doing......... now....... and you wonder why I am getting upset and defensive about it????Am I wrong or missing something here?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So your wife used to be affectionate and extraordinarily attentive. That doesn't give you a right to such attention.It's not that I wonder why you are upset or defensive about this. I just think it is inappropriate for you to be offended by it. A sense of loss is appropriate, but a sense that you have been denied a prerogative is not. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>After having 9 months of being told that you are invading her privacy, being too pushy (when all you are looking for is some warmth, intimacy and assuredness of her love for you), being constantly snapped at no matter what you say, being pulled down in front of friends, I could go on all day..... doesnt a person have the right to be upset and defensive?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You have the right to be angry about how you have been treated. You have every reason to be angry. I'm not going to criticize you for being angry.But I will point out that anger isn't going to make you feel any better about yourself, and unless it's very carefully expressed, it's not going to do anything good for your relationship.Anger is a response to hurt and fear. Find what inside you is being threatened. Face it. I'll bet you'll find that your survival is not at stake. And if you can find your validation within yourself, rather than what someone else (e.g. your wife) thinks of you, you won't even find that your self-respect is at stake. You won't have a need for anger. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There was absolutely no reason why she couldnt have walked over to me - 5 feet from where she came in the door, and kissed me on the cheek, if I had to walk past her like that I would never hear the end of it.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>OK, there was no reason why she couldn't walk over to you. But what reason did she have to do it? And what reason did you have to expect it?The fact that your wife may have had unreasonable expectations if your roles were reversed doesn't constitute a valid reason for you to maintain unreasonable expectations. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She has changed and become a very cold person since her affair and all I am seeking is some intimacy, warmth and affection - yes for reassurance that she is still my wife and she loves me like she says she does...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think I have a pretty good idea how you feel, kevan. I've been there (well, except for the affair part). But you can't force it. Your wife is suffering a great deal of internal conflict, and this makes it very difficult for her to reach out or open up. [This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited June 08, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume: I think I have a pretty good idea how you feel, kevan. I've been there (well, except for the affair part). But you can't force it. Your wife is suffering a great deal of internal conflict, and this makes it very difficult for her to reach out or open up. [This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited June 08, 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks, yes I need lots of specifics, like you have given me, it takes a lot before it sinks in sometimes, it is not easy to hide one's hurt and feelings, it is not easy to just stand by and be snapped at and not react....i know it is wrong, but believe me I have tried the subtle approach, the submissive approach, the diplomatic approach, but..... same response......But I do understand and will put into practice what you have said.... Anyhow, besides this, last night I asked her again, why is everything now shut away from me, we were so open before, now everything is behind closed doors, why is she unapproachable - she got mad as usual, says I start this at bedtime every time, I just dont see her point that she says she just needs some space and time on her own, even if its in the bathroom without me barging in - I said I am at my wits end - I am trying everything to get back together and be close again and am getting confused - she said she has had enough, she stormed downstairs and grabbed a handful of sleeping pills, then marched into the bathroom and said "Lovely, now I have to go to work again in the morning with a puffy face from crying, thank you very much" She came out, I said I am sorry but what else must I do to try and get some love from her, thats all I am looking for, she got mad again and said do you want me to take all these sleeping pills, maybe then you will be happy - I have just had enough - I just want a break, from all of you, everyone, everything. I said I was sorry for getting her upset, I took the sleeping pills, left her a half-one and kissed her goodnight. I will have to start all over again, but letshope there is still a chance after WHAT I DID LAST NIGHT:I was checking her cellphone account balance on the Internet and they have just changed it all, you have to set up an account, within username and password etc.So I set one up, and of course it refuses unless you give the current mailing address, which it checks against their records.I set it up, it then supplied a "temporary" password.When I logged in it will not give any details except that which I know already, AND they will now send out a NEW password within 10 days to the postal address on her account - which is her work account.YOU KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS WHEN SHE FINDS OUT..... I am just going to have to tell her straight out what I have done when I get home tonight and be honest with her and face the consequences fo being such a stupid fool..... I guess if she really wants to walk out, then she better go.....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: believe me I have tried the subtle approach, the submissive approach, the diplomatic approach, but..... same response......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, I've been there too. I tried everything, absolutely everything I could think of (and I've got a pretty good imagination). Nothing got through.I finally realized that this was out of my control. My wife's distress wasn't about me, and if she was determined to block me out, nothing I did was going to "fix" things. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Anyhow, besides this, last night I asked her again, why is everything now shut away from me, we were so open before, now everything is behind closed doors, why is she unapproachable - she got mad as usual, says I start this at bedtime every time<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your question was legitimate, although if your wife is not exaggerating about the frequency of your relationship talks, perhaps you should space them out a bit more. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I just dont see her point that she says she just needs some space and time on her own, even if its in the bathroom without me barging in<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>First, you don't need to see her point. You only need to accept that that's how she feels, whether you understand it or not. If your wife was more secure in herself, perhaps she wouldn't "need" to have you validate her feelings, but that's not where she's at right now. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I said I am at my wits end - I am trying everything to get back together and be close again and am getting confused<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Most likely, she's taking this as another criticism. If you've tried everything, then logically she must be at fault.That said, however, over-analysis of her reactions may not really be all that helpful. As I said before, she may be determined to take offence at anything you say. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>she said she has had enough, she stormed downstairs and grabbed a handful of sleeping pills, then marched into the bathroom and said "Lovely, now I have to go to work again in the morning with a puffy face from crying, thank you very much"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now there's a familiar story. While my wife was working on her master's degree, I knew exactly how any argument would play out. I tried desperately to avoid getting her upset, but every once in a while I inadvertently triggered something, and despite my best efforts to pacify her, she inevitably concluded the "argument" by accusing me of deliberately trying to sabotage her master's program. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She came out, I said I am sorry but what else must I do to try and get some love from her, thats all I am looking for...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You're still claiming control here, kevan. You're telling your wife that to get love from her you are the one who must do something.Also, you're being needy, and your wife is likely to see that as somewhat pathetic. That's not the way to regain her respect. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>When I logged in it will not give any details except that which I know already, AND they will now send out a NEW password within 10 days to the postal address on her account - which is her work account.YOU KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS WHEN SHE FINDS OUT.....I am just going to have to tell her straight out what I have done when I get home tonight and be honest with her and face the consequences fo being such a stupid fool.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Telling her what you did is the right approach, I think. But this is something for which I think you should offer no apology. I don't know if others will agree with me on this, but in my opinion you're not a "stupid fool" unless you allow your wife to play you like a fool, and in my opinion that's what your wife is doing by being secretive about her cell phone usage. You're enabling her behavior if you turn a blind eye to her betrayal of you.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: Yep, thanks again - you will get thru to me eventually.Wish me luck this weekend......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, thats it, she got so mad when I told her about the fone account, she says I am just possesive - I am her possession thats all - she says I have finally made up her mind for her, she has packed a bag and gone...........What do I do now??

My suggestion?1. Pray.2. Wait.Contrary to your wife's assertion, you didn't make up her mind for her. She will do what she chooses to do, and there's not a whole hell of a lot you can do about it (notably because you are already in hell and thus lack leverage).Anybody who ever said life was fair, or easy, didn't know what he was talking about. Sometimes it hurts.I wish I could tell you that it stops hurting. But that's a lesson I haven't learned myself. Frankly, I'm doubtful.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume: My suggestion?1. Pray.2. Wait.Contrary to your wife's assertion, you didn't make up her mind for her. She will do what she chooses to do, and there's not a whole hell of a lot you can do about it (notably because you are already in hell and thus lack leverage).Anybody who ever said life was fair, or easy, didn't know what he was talking about. Sometimes it hurts.I wish I could tell you that it stops hurting. But that's a lesson I haven't learned myself. Frankly, I'm doubtful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks, not much consolation, but thanks anyhow - I guess I did drive her over the edge - Shows what honesty and the want for honesty does - all you get is a kick in the face...

I have been reading your info for awhile...don't know why you did not do this before....She is playing you like a fiddle...you seem to be the one appologizing for her affair. she does not seem sorry at all...of coarse you want to know who she is calling....her life should be an open book....make damn sure she dumps this jerk or tell her to get the the hell out...Take charge don't be a [censored]...I don't care what the hell she looks like be a man damnit don't let her bang some guy then tell you how to deal with it....she screwed up she should bend over backward for your forgiveness not act like a royal b.i.t.c.h because she got caught.I would get a pi on the OM and sue the hell out of him for alienation of affection...I hate guys like that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr.X: I have been reading your info for awhile...don't know why you did not do this before....She is playing you like a fiddle...you seem to be the one appologizing for her affair. she does not seem sorry at all...of coarse you want to know who she is calling....her life should be an open book....make damn sure she dumps this jerk or tell her to get the the hell out...Take charge don't be a [censored]...I don't care what the hell she looks like be a man damnit don't let her bang some guy then tell you how to deal with it....she screwed up she should bend over backward for your forgiveness not act like a royal b.i.t.c.h because she got caught.I would get a pi on the OM and sue the hell out of him for alienation of affection...I hate guys like that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The suing for alienation of affection is a very good idea, mind you I would rather put a PI onto her... Well, she is really really mad, after I told her what I had done, she went ballistic - said I am just totally obsessive about her phone. I have now made up her mind finally, she is going. She would not listen to a word further I said to her, she started throwing things around She said , thanks very much you just want everything, nothing is mine, thats it, you have fimnally done it", "I never even touch your f******g fone, its yours, I wont even answer it"I said to her a few minutes later that I am sorry she feels this way but that I do love her very much - she said "Crap, I am just a possession to you and nothing more, you just want to possess me. Just leave me alone I dont want to talk to you at all"I said I want her to please just be careful and think what she is doing - she said "I know what I am doing, I'm going and thats it" I asked her where to, she said "Who knows it doesnt matter, you dont care anyhow", I said I do very much even though it may not seem evident at all...She just said "I dont want to hear anymore, dont talk to me". She has taken her handbag, cellphone and walked out of the complex. Well, she is home again, (12:30 am) in one terrible stinking mood, I went to look for her, she eventually answered her phone, but would not tell me where she was, I told her this is enough nonsense and its time she came home, she is just acting ridiculous now. She eventually came home.Our son got home before she did, I told him what had happened and why - maybe I shouldnt have, but if she was or is still going to pack up and move out, then at least he is prepared.Our son said to me maybe I should try and tell her that to prove to her that I love her, I will not bug her, phone her, or check on her at all for a month at least and then she can make up her mind. As I said to our son, everyone I have spoken to have said exactly the same thing - I have the right to know where she is what she is doing and who she is phoning. I also told him that in no way am I trying to poison him against his mother, she loves both of them very much, it is me that she has the problem with.I know, maybe I shouldnt have loaded this onto him, he has enough on his shoulders, but he saw how upset I was when he walked in and when he asked where she was, I just told him what had happened.When she got home, I went to talk to her, told her that I do love her, even though she may think I am mad and have lost my head, she just snapped at me and told me she is not interested in talking. I ignored that and said to her, the choice is hers if she wants to go I cannot stop her, but it will not stop me loving her, she said "Yeah, right, its more like possession, thats all"I then said to her fine, to prove that I do love her she is free to go if she wants to otherwise I will not bug her anymore or phone her anymore, or do any checking up, I will keep my distance and she can go where she likes and do what she wants, the choice is hers.I kissed her goodnight and went downstairs. This is going to be very very difficult to keep my distance as I do love her tremendously and just itch to have a hug or a kiss. When I came home tonight, she was lying asleep on the sofa, in her jeans and a sleeveless t-shirt, she looked so lovely and attractive that it took all my might not to go and give her a big hug. But if I have to do it to prove to Ave what I have said then I will just have to do it and deal with my frustrations out of her way.A counsellor again - maybe - I will go and speak to the doctor, he has a plan where he may be able to organize a psychoanalyst that is covered by the medical scheme. It is just that I have had so much time off work with doctors lately that I can see they are getting a bit fed up with me.I wont even think of mentioning her phone again to her, or even mentioning that her actions are making me feel insecure - that will just make her feel guilty again and lash out at me.Lets see how tomorrow goes. Last chance, if she goes, then she goes, if she doesnt well then we will see.......

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: The suing for alienation of affection is a very good idea, mind you I would rather put a PI onto her... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So again here I've backed down to a certain extent. I said to her yesterday afternoon when she came home at 6pm - that life is too short (she said yes, you dont have to tell me that) and we are not getting any younger, we shouldnt be going thru this, we should be enjoying our time together, not doing this to each other all the time. I said to her I am sorry for everything I have done wrong to her in the last 18 months and really want to forget it all and get back together and go on, she said "Well we will just have to take it one day at a time" - basically saying to me that she doesnt trust me to just forget it all and I will have to prove this to her. Here I was hoping for possibly a return apology of the same nature as what I gave her, but no ways, so I guess I am really the one in the wrong here, even though it is her that has deceived me over the last 2 years..........I asked her then does she really love me, she looked at me with tears in her eyes and said what a stupid question.... I then said to her that my whole problem is that I just feel very insecure about what has been happening, she answered straight back, "Well how do you think I feel, I feel just as insecure" Same story again, always defensive - or am I again just missing everything?We went down to the pub for dinner last night. I raised my glass to her and said here's to a new start, she smiled a bit and said "Yes, no more checking up on me" I answered her and no more nonsense from you, her face and attitude changed straight away to one of anger. I just ignored it.I have really got to find someone to talk to her and get thru to her, I amnot out to get her but need her to fully understand wwhat she is doing to us with her attitude and obstinacy and why I feel the way I do, I just cant take it anymore....I have never seen her so upset as she was on Friday night, she threw the ironing board across the lounge, broke a wineglass, then when she was cleaning it up, threw the vacuum cleaner down the passage on the tiles....I guess then it is all my fault and I am to blame for it all and am just not seeing the picture from her point of view - I just dont know anymore. Everyone says I must get back to counselling - I am sorry this may also sound obstinate, but I have had a large amount of counselling from various sources in the last 8 months - enough for me to know, THAT IT IS HER THAT NEEDS THE HELP, GUIDANCE AND COUNSELLING MORE THAN ME, but she just refuses to even think about it - it runs in her family - -everything is always "secretive and private"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: Everyone says I must get back to counselling - I am sorry this may also sound obstinate, but I have had a large amount of counselling from various sources in the last 8 months - enough for me to know, THAT IT IS HER THAT NEEDS THE HELP, GUIDANCE AND COUNSELLING MORE THAN ME, but she just refuses to even think about it - it runs in her family - -everything is always "secretive and private"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You know, believe it or not, I DO NOT WANT TO GET DIVORCED, I DO BELIEVE IT CAN BE WORKED OUT, EVEN IF IT MEANS SHE GOES BACK TO HER MOTHER IN SOUTH AFRICA FOR HOW LONG SHE NEEDS

kevan- I think you are getting good advice here, but I had to jump in. The description you've provided of your wife matches what I've been dealing with w my wife since Sept/ Oct.Have you read Dobson's "Love Must be Tough"? I think a strategy to consider comes from this book. My wife was very distant and VERY cold. I hadn't found the MB website yet and I didn't respond well. I think when there's an om in the picture it's easy for the ws to see you in an unfavorable light. I tried, like you, to approach her in a variety of ways, all w a central theme. I love you w all my heart, let's keep our great family together, why are you doing this, all variants of the pleading thing. Wife did not respond well to this at all, just w increased hostility. I found MB in Feb. and tried plan A. I did not get the results I wanted.I started w Steve Harley in April, kept up plan a, and employed some of the distance described in "Love ...Tough". And I began to see results. Now these aren't the results I had hoped for, but I cannot argue w progress. I feel very strongly that the key lies in a good plan a ( establishes a "foundation",redirects your focus) and in employing some distance.I think ws must percieve you as "strong" not needy;and space will help w that. I have also read repeatedly that you cannot recover while your w is still in the affair. Depositing in her bank is difficult, if not impossible. Love her in a way that she will accept, and focus more on you. I know you feel you've had enough counselling(sp?), but I would highly recommend Steve Harley.At least to review your strategy and help define the way to go forward. I also found that I could feel better about me (just a little) when I stopped giving her all those things of value that she did not want.I was doing many of the things for her that you describe. Steve had said to me, are you loving her the way she wants or the way you want? What would get you closer to your objective? Sorry for a disjointed post;I do feel I know what a painful, painful place you're in. [This message has been edited by Family Man (edited June 10, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Family Man: I was doing many of the things for her that you describe. Steve had said to me, are you loving her the way she wants or the way you want? What would get you closer to your objective? Sorry for a disjointed post;I do feel I know what a painful, painful place you're in.[This message has been edited by Family Man (edited June 10, 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tough Love - yes, I have read some of it, believe it or not, this horrible divorcee friend of my wife's gave her osme printouts of Dobson's book, even before I found out about the A - why, I dont know - my wife was upset when I found it and approached her with it.This is one reason why Isaid to her on Friday night - if she wants to go, she must go, but she must just be sure she is thinking clearly and knows what she is doing.I have never seen her so mad in my life before - she threw the ironing board across the lounge, broke a wineglass, was slamming every door in the house, thre the wireless phone across the room, when she was cleaning up the broken glass - slammed the vacuum down the tiles in the passage.....Yes, I softened up again this weekend, but will be keeping my distance from now onwards - not so mcuh pampering and siding up to her - we have said we will have a new start - I am also watching her very carefully.No my heart is still hurting very very much, but did realise onFriday, if she was going to leave, then it didnt really seem that bad - we will see how it goes...Am I giving her the love I want or giving her the love she wants and needs - evry good question as she will just not talk about it, I have asked her so many times to tell me what I amdoing wrong and what she wants me to do - I either egt no answer form her or just "Just drop it, I've heard enough and dont want to discuss it anymore"All that she is mad about is me "checking " up on her - thus basically not trusting her I guess - the "checking" thing comes up everytime - but what the h** do you do when she is constantly so evasive...........I wish I had access to the money to hire a PI to watch her for a few weeks, but she sees exactly what goes out all our accounts.Maybe she is being so difficult because as she says she is being provoked by me, I dont know - maybe this is just an excuse too..One thing I know for sure this absolutely sucks, did I really cause so much wrong in our marriage to be treated like this, go through torment for 6 months wondering if she was having an affair, have my son find out, her refusing to give up her friendship with OM, my kids getting so invloved, me being blamed for everything that was wrong, going thru utter torment trying to make it all right again, counsellors, doctors, anti-deps, being treated like dirt, being treated like I WAS THE ONE THAT DID ALL THE WRONG, and then just expected to forget it all happened, go on as normal, but not get any intimacy from her at all, then when I ask a few simple questions about where she has been after work, get my head bitten off and be told I am treating her like a child...Yes, this sucks and I would wish it on my worst enemy - I would rather face the death of a close family member - even her, than rather face this again in my life. It has been the worst experience in my life and even more traumatic than migrating and moving my whole family to the other side of the world.I hope if there is anyone out there who has deceived their partent and is acting in the same way, reads this and wakes up.Thank you everyone for your support.It just feels like I have lost and wasted two years of my life and not completely due to my wrongdoing.........This is very very cruel...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> So just on 12 months since my wife was 'discovered' in the park kissing it up. 6 months since she accepted a Christmas gift from her lover AFTER THE AFFAIR WAS SUPPOSED TO BE OVER ...And, guess what - still no intimacy, not even a voluntary kiss from her....This is very very cruel...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>With all this now still going on between my wife & myself - I often sit and think, when I am in a bad mood and feeling this anger rush in again - maybe I should also go out and have a try and see what it is like to make love to another woman????If she has had the opportunity to go and find out for the first time in her life what its like to make love to someone else, besides the virgin male she married, then why cant I too?Bad attitude, hey - this is the same as saying, well my dear wife, seeing that you have had an affair and had the chance to find out what it is like to make love to someone else, then why shouldnt I???I was feeling so angry again last night - just at the thought that she went out with him early last year with full intent of climbing into bed with him - and then bawling her eyes out the next day, telling me it wasnt what it looked like, and she didnt want to ruin anyone's marriage, making passionate love to me two nights in a row, and then still going ahead and continuing the affair and ending up screwing him anyway. HOW DO I GET THIS HURT OUT OF ME?It would have been bad enough if I had just found out that they were having an affair, but after being lied to me like this, it makes it all that more difficult to get over this.Yes, I keep on blaming him for climbing into her pants, but it is obvious she was just as willing to see what he had in there, just waiting for her - the ***** - sorry this sounds very coarse, and please dont take personal offense to this - the main reason I am now still so upset over it all IS HER DAMN HESITANCE FOR INTIMACY AND CLOSENESS.It could be very possible, I know that, if I was put in a position where I was tempted right now - who knows what may happen - I wonder if she realises this?Another thing, she is putting on more and more weight - quite ironic, last year by this time she was her slimmest she had ever been since we got married - but no effort this year at all - yes maybe it is an indication that things have cooled down with the fat oaf - but then again - I am sure a few pounds in bed wouldnt make any difference to him anyhow - he is so big and overweight, he would most probably enjoy the bit of extra cushioning.It is quite obvious that the "affair" was already in full swing - at least the emotional side of it, while I was away in Quebec early last year - it almost as if she couldnt wait for me to get back - then jump at the chance of climbing into his pants - at least that way she didnt feel guilty that she was "deceiving" me while I was out of town.I know that MarriageBuilders preaches that the hurt party should just do their best and "hang in there" while the wayward spouse gets their life back together - but, hell, are we not allowed ot have feelings too and expect some type of affection?It is all fine and well that the deceived party should fully understand the trauma and guilt that the wayward spouse is going thru, "withdrawing" from the affair, but are we just expected to "ignore our emotions and needs" while this is going on? Are we really expected to just "grin and bear it", make as if we are happy with life all the time?As soon as she can see that I am feeling a bit down or angry becauseof something that has triggered off an emotion or memory, she gets her back up immediately.I am finding this very difficult to deal with...How do you deal with a person that just wants to "ignore" what is going on, ignore her spouses feelings (I suppose mainly through her feelings of guilt) and just go on with life, as long as the spouse she has just hurt doesnt expect her to be "intimate" with him?THERE IS A LADY OUT THERE POSTING WITH THE NOMEDE PLUME OG OLGJMJ - I HOPE YOU READ THIS AND REALISE WHAT TORMENT IS LIKE....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kevan: How do you deal with a person that just wants to "ignore" what is going on, ignore her spouses feelings (I suppose mainly through her feelings of guilt) and just go on with life, as long as the spouse she has just hurt doesnt expect her to be "intimate" with him? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey, I at least got a phonecall from her at work today - but the only reason was to make sure I had submitted my expenses...We are having a difficult time at work with the company downsizing - many people have been laid off...So, same old story again tonight..I got home before her tonight - 6:30 pm and no sight of her. No phonecall beforehand, nothing. Then 5 minutes later, a phonecall - she "had been for a swim", can I please turn the pot on on the stove with the meat in it.Then she wonders why I get upset - I phone her every time I am going to be home late. But if I have to mention something like this she gets mad.Well, at least she approached me to kiss me hello - rather hesitantly, but nevertheless. When she came home I did my best to just act "normal" - a few minutes later she says "Well, are you peed off because I went for a swim?" - but with such a look in her eyes - almost ready for a fight, ready to challenge me as soon as I had anything to say - I just said no and ignored it.So again, same old story, "pleasant, courteous" talk all night. I said to her tonight during dinner how difficult it is at work with all the layoffs, how low the morale is and then said to her "But dont worry I will be a good boy this time. I wont end up a nervous wreck like last time - so I wont cause you any stress" (This of course was one of her many excuses for the affair - She needed someone to 'lean' on - she wanted a husband that was a "man", not a nervous wreck)She snapped at me straight away "Oh, stop that crap, are you just trying to be funny"Dinner finished - watching TV - falls asleep.Bedtime, I go shower, she goes upstairs to bed - I finish showering, she asks, well arent you going to sleep upstairs in the bed tonight - I said no, because I know she will not sleep with my snoring, and she needs her sleep.Then I just said to her "All I am looking for is a kiss and a hug, that would make a big difference, thats all I was looking for last night too, you know" - not a word from her. She got into bed, I went and kissed her goodnight, expecting maybe that she would say, come have a cuddle for a few minutes, but no, just a goodnight kiss and thats it, I left the bedroom and came downstairs.Do I have to beg for her mercy now, because SHE had the affair, and she feels so guilty now, and she feels she is not good enough for me (yes, she has told me this) and now feels so difficult to show me love?I have tried everything I can, believe me - but still this distancing - what more do I do?She wont go to a counsellor, wont talk to anyone about it, just wants to pretend as if it never happened - well at least expects me to - but she doesnt want to get close to me - oh, yes, maybe if I ask for a hug or a kiss, I may be lucky depending on her mood.And still her cellphone account gets sent to her work address, not to our home address - and she now expects me to trust her completely again? She just gets mad when I even mention it... I so very nearly demanded that she give me a copy of her last 5 months phone logs last night.Anybody wonder why I still feel suspicious of her goings-on?HOW LONG DOES THIS GO ON FOR - AM I EXPECTED TO JUST SIT BY AND WASTE ANOTHER YEAR OF MY LIFE WAITING FOR HER?Yes, she tends for the home, besides working full-day, cooks most evenings even though I suggest very often that she takes a break. I have asked her many times if we could invite friends around for a meal - everyone has asked us to their homes and it is quite obvious that some reciprocation would be nice - but no, she says she just doesnt have the inclination for it - then she wonders why her best friends are a bit cool with her? She is now finding excuses that they dont like her anymore.I have even written a letter to her explaining my feelings (last time I went away) and my need to know what has happened (a very good friend found an excellent letter for me at the <A HREF="http://www.dearpeggy.com" TARGET=_blank>www.dearpeggy.com</A> website) - but not even a word from her about the letter - I have been home for over 2 weeks now...Anybody out there have some suggestions?

Kevin I am sad to read your posts and that this is still going on. It sounds as if you are close to a nervous breakdown. Do you realise love is a 2 way thing and you are getting nothing at the moment. You need to start looking out for yourself. I think maybe you should think about leaving this woman. I know what it feels like I was in the place that you are for 3 months and knew I couldn't do it anymore. But when I told H it was over he changed. Well that lasted 4 months, it never really helped me over come the way that he had treated me. After the 4 months he became the B&^*%D that he was before. So I filed for divorce, the hardest thing I've ever had to do. But I looked at it this way: was he the person that I loved or was I trying to get him to change back to who I thought he was. I know that I don't love the person that he is now. He is drinking, gambling womaniser. Your wife is a lying cheating 'maniser'. That is truth. You cannot change her, I really think that you have given this a lot of chance and she is not changeing. She doesn't sound like a very nice person and I wonder do you really love the way she is now, because that is who she is and she may never change back again. I want you to look out for you now. Quote: At any moment your life is exactly the way that it is. You are the way you are and the people in your life are exactly the way that they are. This is true whether you like it or not.Quote2: To have a fear lose its power, you need to do the opposite of resisting. You need to be willing for the fear to happen. You don't have to like it, just be willing.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Pantha:
Kevin
I am sad to read your posts and that this is still going on.
<hr></blockquote>Well, believe it or not, we are still together - although not very happily. I think the final break is coming very soon. But, before that happens, from a "discussion" with my wife last night I need to say the following: (This is true at least in her eyes):I am writing a letter of apology.I am apologizing to you for every bad word I have said about my wife. I have now realized that it has been my fault all along - everything that has happened - through my own selfishness and insensitivity.
I have always left all the decisions in our life up to her and have taken a back seat. I thought it was to give everyone what they wanted and I ended up just getting lazy and letting her make all the decisions in our lives. Nearly everything in our lives I have left up to her to make the decisions on - even up to where we go over weekends and holidays etc. and what we have bought and what we havent - so I only have myself to blame for what has happened in our marrigae and no-one else.
I am sorry for giving you the wrong idea all along that it was her that had hurt me - I have been hurting her for the last I dont know how many years without fully realizing it even though she has been trying to tell me so all along.
We made an agreement when we came to the country we are now living in at first to stay a year, if we couldnt settle we would go back to our home country. We then extended it for another year because of finances etc. We then decided to stay until we got our citizenship and then go back after that, as she really wants to look after her mom.
I have been insensitive to this and have put the kids interests before her and our marriage. The result being that the kids have got everything at the sacrifice of our marriage.
I am not saying this sarcrasticly at all but being very open and honest about it and admitting that I have done wrong in all of this. We should never have come to this country as it has just caused more problems than anything else.
It has been through my stubbornness and insensitivity and selfishness that things have ended up the way they are and on-one else's fault.
Yes, it has very stupidly taken me all these years to actually realize this and I have no reason to feel hurt by what she has been feeling as I have gone against her wishes. I have only put my feelings first in all of this the last few years.
My apologies for leading everyone down the wrong path and making out that everyone else was at fault and not me.
I have thus got us in this mess and to take the children out of here would now do a lot more damage than if we had gone back to SA after a year, but I was foolishly thinking only of finances and too scared of losing what we have.
I have depended solely on her to run the home and the finances of which she has done an excellent job and just lived in my own selfish world of my career and as a result ended up a nervous mess.
Even though she has supported me through a lot of our problems here and stood by me while I was in a mess, I have just taken advantage of all of it just for my own good and I thought for the children.
I have just expected too much of her and shirked my responsibilities in our marriage. With the result that there has also been insufficient discipline in our home and the children have done what they please, not what we feel they should be doing. I have been too soft on them.
I cannot stop her from going back home - I have hurt her deeply enough that I must not expect her to want to let me try again and put these wrongs right again.Whether or not she has been resistant to stop seeing OM does not seem to count in her eyes, as she feels that everything has come back to this one fact of my insensitivity in our marriage.I guess putting our children foremost in our marriage was not really the best thing to do? Dont worry though I am now fully prepared to continue life without her. I know in my heart that it has not been all me at fault.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Pantha:
Kevin
Quote: At any moment your life is exactly the way that it is. You are the way you are and the people in your life are exactly the way that they are. This is true whether you like it or not.
<hr></blockquote>Can you believe that my wife actually threw a tantrum when she read the message above, which I copied to her father and my sister?She says I have NO right to "invade her privacy".She locked herself in the bathroom was a bottle of sleeping pills - I forced the door open and had to wrestle these away from her.I told her to NEVER play that trick on me again.So, what does a man do when he finds out that his wife is still seeing OM 14 months after d-day?My daughter's best friend saw the two of them together two weekends ago while I was out of the country.They were at a fishing village close to our home that we frequent, BUT it is far from where he lives.My wife tries to tell me that it was a "chance encounter" ????? Next joke.
She has now not only shamed my son, who was the one to discover them last year, but has now shamed my daughter too, who was very upset that her best friend had to ask her these awkward questions.I think it is definitely now time for her to leave our home.

Kevan- Your story is very similar to mine. My d-day was in January 2001. Your wife has treated you the same way mine has treated me. She continues to have an EA and PA with the OM to this day. Itried everthing to get her to come back to me but she never did. We have been married 23 years. I think what you want is the wife that she used to be. I wanted the same thing for 9 months but now have to realize that she has changed. Her affair has been ongoing for over 2 years. I finally realized that I had to take care of myself first and understand that I cannot control what other people do. Her getting upset about you wanting to know her whereabouts is only because she still is seeing the OM and does not want you to be aware. Kevan, it takes two to have a marriage. you cannot do it all yourself. I realize that now. Most people cannot understand that I stayed with her as long as I did. Sometimes I wonder myself. We all just want things to be "right". We want the good old times back. Well, we have to realize that people change and we cannot control taht this happens.Kevan, from what I read i feel that you are a decent person and deserve much better. If you leave her consider it her loss and not yours because it truly is. You have your own life to live. It is the hardest thing that you have to do but it may be neccesary. You cannot live the way things are now can you ? How long do you have to wait for someone to change. That change would have to be really significant for your relationship to be better. I waited forever for my wife to change back to who she use to be but it never happened.My wife has left me and I have our two children who she rarely sees. My teenage daughter has felt abandoned by her mother for years and won`t even speak to her she is so angry and feels unloved. I feel my wife has totally screwed up my life and this makes me very angry. The most important thing I have to do is release her and get on with my life. I know it will be painful going thru the divorce but I truly believe lif e will get better in the future. Most everyone tells me that and I have to believe it. God has a plan for ALL of us. You need to let Him deal with your wife. Trust me he will. This can take a load off your shoulders.I am sorry to tell you something that you do not want to hear. I was told this for the longest time and would never let go and kept waiting for her to come back to me. I wanted that affection so bad just as you did but it never came. As I said you deserve better and you will have it again sometime in the future. You just need to stand up and look out for yourself.This is for YOU!

We are all very much in the same spot. I have have let go and truly don't want to reestablish the marriage I had before. It was three years of dealing with multiple affairs and a wife that was only "out for me". A marriage must be so much more then what we are all dealing with on this site.
Kevan. You need to back off a bit and give her distance, you are becoming to compulsive and it is having the wrong effect. What ever you do unless her affair ends you will not be able to reconnect with her.
You need to start working on yourself and your children "Now". You need to protect yourself and be ready for a D. You have children and they need you. Start putting distance between you two.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by adamS:

You need to start working on yourself and your children "Now". You need to protect yourself and be ready for a D. You have children and they need you. Start putting distance between you two.<hr></blockquote>Thank you Adam and thank you Scott.After her last outburst last weekend and her resistance to see the big picture, whether these are just "casual" meetings or not.I have told her as far as I am concerned it is over. It is only now a matter of time until I can find some suitable accommodation for myslef, although I do still feel I shouldnt be the one moving out, as I didnt have the affair, even if I was somehow to blame for some of it.We are now living together simply for financial reasons only.I know what I have to face and I know it is not going to be easy.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by adamS:
 You need to protect yourself and be ready for a D. You have children and they need you. Start putting distance between you two.<hr></blockquote>
I should really start a new thread - NO, I DONT WANT HER ANYMORE - should be the title.Well, can you believe after all this time - still not much progress.I have now been playing hardball - but STILL she has the same attitude?Its all about HER hurt, HER feelings.Some things she has said lately:Well, **** happens for a reason you know.
So whats wrong with talking to him now and then.
You just wont listen to me will you.
Why cant we go out - you go out with the people at work (which I do for business reasons) why cant you now take me out for a pub meal.
It is definitely all centered around HER wants.
Ther has been a lot of "I DONT WANT" and "I WANT" and "I WILL NOT" too.She is still witholding her cellfone accounts and bills from me - after nearly 2 years now - I have tried to reason with her about this in may ways, we have had many fights about it - still she doesnt get the picture. "Why should I let you see them, it is my personal phone and business, you tell me everything you have told your sister, give me all those emails where you have slandered me first"She is in no position to bargain or set up conditions. It is thru her stubbornness and unwilingness that I have gone elsewhere for assistance and guidance.Last weekend she got completely drunk because I would not take her out. Ended up getting sick all over the sitting-room floor. And then, in her drunken stupor - still says to me "This is all your fault, get your filty hands off me"I gave her this letter last week: March 5, 2002.From today onwards, I will be limiting any conversation to:
The general running and upkeep of the home
The wellbeing and upbringing of our children
Financial matters
Social interaction with our common friends and outings with them
Housework
I will tell you when I will not be on time for mealsI am not prepared to:
Discuss our personal relationship
Factors affecting our personal relationshipI will:
Act with courtesy and reasonableness in front of the children and in company ? friends and otherwiseI do not expect:
To be thanked for any housework I do, or chores related to the running of the home.
Any social interaction besides that which I have mentioned aboveIt would be appreciated if you could please provide all your Cell Phone accounts and call listings by the end of this week.You may ask my reasons for this ? I feel I have made myself sufficiently clear already.
CAN YOU BELIEVE ITAfter all this, she still asks me today if we can go out for a pub meal tonight, because I went out for a business dinner on Thursday?
BUT she went out with a girlfriend last night..I said to her well, if you want to go out, find someone to go with us - her answer "Why should we do that?" SHE totally ignores what I say to her SO HOW do I PLan B without leaving home? [LIST]She refuses to move out - says this house is in both our names.
I dont see why I should move out - I am the one who has been trying to put it back together all along - but have now realized it will only be under HER conditions.
We are not in a financial position to be able to run two homes - as I know my son would want to go with me if I moved out.
I have no further interest in working it out with her - we are quite obviously incompatible - yes difficult to face after 23 years of marriage.
I have ALWAYS done my best to give her whatever I could and done my best to be reasonable - she is just unsatisfiable.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by kevan:

I have no further interest in working it out with her - we are quite obviously incompatible - yes difficult to face after 23 years of marriage.
I have ALWAYS done my best to give her whatever I could and done my best to be reasonable - she is just unsatisfiable.<hr></blockquote>So may 2002 already and I still havent left - but not long to go now - things have NOT improved that much - I stay away from home until late every night - of course she is now mad about this as I am not there to "help her" - never mind any thought of helping what I was going thru the last 2 years?
NOW - "Why cant WE just put this all behind us?" "Why cant WE start again?" - Yes, of course now that she has fully realized that I am willing to walk away from all of it she has changed her tune - but still no 100% guarantee that she has broken it off completely?I still get the answer from her "Whats a few phone calls? We Are still friends, he was a verygood friend to me"NOW she is denying half the things she told me in the first place? "Oh, it was just a flirtation, thats all" - Easy to just brush it off after her son caught her kissing in the park (she lied to me on that one too - saying they were holding hands).
Even easier to brush off after her daughters best friend saw her out with OM in November while I was out of the country?
How about just brushing off the fact that despite her telling me "Its all over" that there were still calls on her cell phone On New Years Day to him?Now I am told I must put it all away and look to the future for us? But she still doesnt want to go for counselling or has made any effort on her own to go?She ended up in hospital a few weeks ago from a mysterious pain in the groing that no doctors or no tests could diagnose and find the cause?This last weekend she spent the whole weekend away from home as she "Thought it was better to have a weekends break so that we didnt fight?"
Well, good for her - she can have many more and she is going to have many more when I leave for good.I am now of course being accused of ill-treating and mis-treating her because I am ignoring her, sleeping in separate rooms, and locking my door at night so that I can have some peace?She has physically barred me on many occcasions from leaving the house when I needed to get out and away from her.AND NOW - friends are questioning me and asking me am I really doing the right thing by leaving?

" am I really doing the right thing by leaving? "Anwer: YesYou have a marriage in name only. It is obvious from your wife's actions that she cares very little for your feelings. Her unwillingness to stop her contact with the OM and go for marriage counselling confirms that there is no respect for you or her marriage.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by kevan:
I stay away from home until late every night - of course she is now mad about this as I am not there to "help her" - never mind any thought of helping what I was going thru the last 2 years?
NOW - "Why cant WE just put this all behind us?" "Why cant WE start again?" - Yes, of course now that she has fully realized that I am willing to walk away from all of it she has changed her tune - but still no 100% guarantee that she has broken it off completely?I still get the answer from her "Whats a few phone calls? We Are still friends, he was a verygood friend to me"NOW she is denying half the things she told me in the first place? "Oh, it was just a flirtation, thats all" - Easy to just brush it off after her son caught her kissing in the park (she lied to me on that one too - saying they were holding hands).
Even easier to brush off after her daughters best friend saw her out with OM in November while I was out of the country?
How about just brushing off the fact that despite her telling me "Its all over" that there were still calls on her cell phone On New Years Day to him?Now I am told I must put it all away and look to the future for us? But she still doesnt want to go for counselling or has made any effort on her own to go?She ended up in hospital a few weeks ago from a mysterious pain in the groing that no doctors or no tests could diagnose and find the cause?This last weekend she spent the whole weekend away from home as she "Thought it was better to have a weekends break so that we didnt fight?"
Well, good for her - she can have many more and she is going to have many more when I leave for good.I am now of course being accused of ill-treating and mis-treating her because I am ignoring her, sleeping in separate rooms, and locking my door at night so that I can have some peace?She has physically barred me on many occcasions from leaving the house when I needed to get out and away from her.AND NOW - friends are questioning me and asking me am I really doing the right thing by leaving?<hr></blockquote>Your W is still carrying on with her A but does not want to loose you because OM can not provide her with the other EN's like financial support and family support. She is what we call a cake eater.No S has the right to physically prevent the other S from leaving their house. Don't allow her to do this to you. The next time she tries to physically barr you from leaving the house, call the police and have them arrest her for spousal abuse and use this to get a restraining order so that she won't be allowed back into the house. Do you think she wouldn't do the same to you if your roles were reversed?Since she refuses to stop contacting OM and get into MC, the future for your M looks very dismal indeed. Have you consulted with the Harley's?Joe

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TooMuchCoffeeMan:
Since she refuses to stop contacting OM and get into MC, the future for your M looks very dismal indeed.
Joe[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Dismal? Its over.

She has Borderline Personality Disorder.

Total Self-denial.

I need to make a life for myself too. A SANE one.

I was laid off from work a few weeks ago, still haent found anything. A soon as I get a job I am leaving her.

Kevan:

My wife is a cake-eater too. I told her she can get counseling or leave. She left. I gave her the beater car and cut off her off the joint checking and credit card. She says "What am I going to do?" I tell her she made this bed so now she has to sleep in it. I still love her and if she want to come back (seek couseling, rehab, etc.) I will welcome her back.

In the interim, I am seekind counseling, etc. to get my head on straight.

God has a purpose for marriage. Being a doormat is not one of them.