Kevan, your W wanting to set up a private e-mail account is NOT a good sign. According to Dr. Harley, your and your W's lives should be an open book and freely accessible to one another. IMO, there can be NO secrets if you want your marriage to recover.<P>During my A I was extremely secretive and, like your W, insisted on my privacy. You can guess why I wanted privacy. I had my cell phone bill sent to my office and concealed a number of other things as well.<P>I hate to say this, but I think there is a possibility that your W is still in contact with OM. She needs to understand that there can be NO CONTACT - as long as any kind of contact exists, she can't put her full effort into working on the marriage.<P>I know how much you're trying to do your part and I really feel for you. I wish there was something I could say to make you feel better. Will you settle for a {{{{Hug}}}}?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susie7753:<BR><B>Kevan, your W wanting to set up a private e-mail account is NOT a good sign. According to Dr. Harley, your and your W's lives should be an open book and freely accessible to one another. IMO, there can be NO secrets if you want your marriage to recover.<P>During my A I was extremely secretive and, like your W, insisted on my privacy. You can guess why I wanted privacy. I had my cell phone bill sent to my office and concealed a number of other things as well.<P>I hate to say this, but I think there is a possibility that your W is still in contact with OM. She needs to understand that there can be NO CONTACT - as long as any kind of contact exists, she can't put her full effort into working on the marriage.<P>I know how much you're trying to do your part and I really feel for you. I wish there was something I could say to make you feel better. Will you settle for a {{{{Hug}}}}?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Suzie,<P>Good to hear from you again.<P>I just do not get that warm fuzzy feeling that all is well and she is trying her best to restore things, know what I mean.<P>Yes, I know I should be concentrating more first on what is wrong with me than what is wrong with our relationship, and I am doing that constantly, doing my best to be a better husband and being more sensitive to my wife's needs IN OUR MARRIAGE, BUT NOT HER PERCEIVED NEED FOR INDEPENDENCE AND FREEDOM AND PRIVACY. AM I BEING SELFISH, CONTROLLING AND POSSESSIVE?<P>This email story may just be innocent, but again under the circumstances it really does make one wonder - independence, privacy, space - in marriage - not according to the marriage principles I have been taught. <BR>Is not one email account at home sufficient for a married couple? I never hide anything we receive on our home email account from anybody, not even our kids. <BR>The kids have their own email accounts and even their own voicemail boxes on our answering machine - but then they are teenagers who by nature want their own bit of life and privacy which is understandable - BUT my wife is not an independent teenager, is she?<P>Yes, as I have said before I know all the principles of Plan A, Plan B, etc. and are doing my best to put all Dr. Harley's principles in effect (even though I do find someof them a bit submissive - but I suppose that's my male ego at play, isnt it), but do also expect this to be a two-way street and cooperation from the W, not just "Get over it, you are dwelling too much on it" and "S**t happens, thats life, grow up and face it"<P>Suzie - yes, I will ALWAYS accept a HUG

As far as this e-mail account goes, I don't think you're being obsessive, selfish or controlling. Under the circumstances, anyone would be suspicious after what's happened. Believe me, your reaction is normal.<P>If nothing is going on, there shouldn't be such a need for secrecy. On the other hand, you have to be careful the way you approach this b/c of the state your W seems to be in.<P>It also seems to me that your W is trying to sweep this whole affair under the rug with her comments that you should "get over it". Maybe she can't deal with what she's done, but her attitude is hurtful to you as you've suffered a devastating blow.<P>Be strong, Kevan!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susie7753:<BR><B>As far as this e-mail account goes, I don't think you're being obsessive, selfish or controlling. Under the circumstances, anyone would be suspicious after what's happened. Believe me, your reaction is normal.<P>If nothing is going on, there shouldn't be such a need for secrecy. On the other hand, you have to be careful the way you approach this b/c of the state your W seems to be in.<P>It also seems to me that your W is trying to sweep this whole affair under the rug with her comments that you should "get over it". Maybe she can't deal with what she's done, but her attitude is hurtful to you as you've suffered a devastating blow.<P>Be strong, Kevan!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are right there on every turn ok.<P>So, how do I approach a person like this without them getting offended?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susie7753:<BR><B><BR>It also seems to me that your W is trying to sweep this whole affair under the rug with her comments that you should "get over it". Maybe she can't deal with what she's done, but her attitude is hurtful to you as you've suffered a devastating blow.<P>Be strong, Kevan!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR>Of course she wants to just sweep it under the rug, she has had the fun, had her fling, doesnt want to see why she should break all contact with him (but of course not - he must have treated her like a queen, wined, dined, kissed and scr......d - trying to tell me he doesnt want more???<P>Trying to tell me he still wouldnt want to get back in her pants?<P>WHat a dilemma she must be in...<P>I know I am really sounding bitter, but I do love her and know that under this facade she is hiding behind is a warm, giving, (gave too much this time though) loving, caring person.<P>Oh, dammit, what a mess...<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevan:<BR><B> <P>Well, another few weeks gone by, a few "discussions" of course initiated from me, not from my wife. Every time she just gets irritable when Itry and talk or ask her where she's been.<P>She is still hiding her cellphone account from me - I wonder if it is just to spite me or if she is still phoning him - How can I be sure she has stopped contacting him?<P>She has not been out at night at all, but still comes home a bit late some nights - been "shopping".<P>She has spent most weekends with me or at home, but still goes out "shopping" every Saturday and Sunday morning for an hour or two.<P>Had a lovely evening at the local pub on Friday.<P>How the hell do I get rid of this suspicion - I do really want to believe her, but get resistance from her - maybe I just dont understand women and the need to have some freedom and independence - but why cant she see how she is hurting me and making it all that more difficult all the time.<P>God help me..<BR>

Kevan, as much as what I'm going to suggest may be an LB, I think that you need to verify what's going on with your W.<P>If you remember, I denied it anytime my H mentioned anything about the possibility of my having an A. Finally, he became so disgusted with my lies and denials that he took matters into his own hands and set out to catch me - which he did.<P>First, he called the cell phone company to obtain copies of my bills. They refused to provide them, however. I don't know if the laws are different where you are.<P>Second, he put a hand-held GPS tracking device in my car and was able to see everywhere I'd gone.<P>And third, he put a wiretap on our home phone. This is ultimately how I was caught - while my H was away, the device recorded a week's worth of phone conversations with OM. When my H returned home, he confronted me with the tape.<P>I don't know what you feel comfortable with doing to find out what you need to know. Maybe you should get some professional advice on this one.<P>I know it's tough, but hang in there. {{{{{{Hugs}}}}}}

On a lighter note. There are now a variety of techniques that can prevent snoring. Recommend that you find a ENT practitioner that specializes in correcting this condition. It may even help your marriage.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susie7753:<BR><B><BR>First, he called the cell phone company to obtain copies of my bills. They refused to provide them, however. I don't know if the laws are different where you are.<P>Second, he put a hand-held GPS tracking device in my car and was able to see everywhere I'd gone.<P>And third, he put a wiretap on our home phone. I don't know what you feel comfortable with doing to find out what you need to know. Maybe you should get some professional advice on this one.<P>I know it's tough, but hang in there. {{{{{{Hugs}}}}}}</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Suzie, so good to hear from you again - <P>Telephone records - I am sure it is much the same here and quite possible if I try and get these records they will notify her - then I am in trouble again for snooping.<P>The GPS - now that sounds like a good idea - I will have to get hold of your husband for some more details on that <P>The wiretap - what a pity we cant get one on a cellphone but thats pushing it hey....<P>Wiretap at home - dont think that would help with tracking calls with OM, he/she would never use that phoneline - our kids would find that out very quick.<P>Am I just maybe overreacting after all this doubt and lies? A bit difficult to really figure this one out when she is being so resistant to talking things out.<P>On the other hand - just remember all our accounts (except her clothing accounts and her cellphone account) including bank accounts are joint account - so she can see as soon as I withdraw any money anywhere - give her that she is a good bookkeeper alright.<P>Of course still getting it thrown in my face reguarly that she is going back to South Africa sometime "And then what am I going to do then?" - my response is I am more interested in the present, I will tackle that when the time comes. <P>Suzie, please dont think I am taking a dig at you now, you are a wonderful person to be able to come up honest after what has happened and then still be open enough to come forward and give advice like this - you have won a crown of glory in my eyes definitely, but....<P>Isnt it amazing - you get defied and betrayed and then do not believe anything much that a person tells you, even if you dream it up yourself - I wonder if people really realize what they have actually done to their partners by betraying/lying to them. The suspicion of a lot that you are told, the suspicions of a lot that you have not been told.<P>Hey is everyone like this or am I unique?<P>Hey, yes I am hanging in there and getting more chirpy and cheerful every day, why not!!!<P>Just, you know, get these downers every now and then, but at least only about once a day now, not all day.<P>{{{{{{Hugs}}}}}}<P>Hey we better watch out with these hugs - just now we will be under suspicion for starting an Internet Affair <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by max:<BR><B>On a lighter note. There are now a variety of techniques that can prevent snoring. Recommend that you find a ENT practitioner that specializes in correcting this condition. It may even help your marriage.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Max,<BR>i tried that a few years ago, but will have to have a re-look again.<P>I went to a ENT - he trid to sell me a "corrective operation" at an astronomical price that wasnot covered by Medical Insurance.<BR>This procedure was to remove some of the flesh/skin from the soft palate at the rear of the mouth - BUT - with only about a 50% success rate. This he claimed was my whole problem and the only way to cure my problem. ( I have had a sinus-related operation done quite a few years ago already)<P>I was told subsequently by my wife (believe it or not) that a relative of someone she worked with had this done and ended up with one very sore throat for more than a month, off work for three weeks as he could not talk, and after 6 weeks was snoring just as much. Not really something to feel positive about, is it?<P>I do appreciate your concern and suggestions and am due back at the doctor later this week and will speak to him again regarding to other possibilities.<P>Thanks for the response...........<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevan:<BR><B><P>I do appreciate your concern and suggestions and am due back at the doctor later this week and will speak to him again regarding to other possibilities.<P>Thanks for the response...........<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Suzie and all you good people out there, yes I am back again.....<P>So sorry to disappoint you. Things have been going a little easier the last few weeks.<P>Yes she of course is making me out to be the ultimate liar - especially<BR>when you hear this:<BR> <BR>Before I start, excuse the spelling, I dont have the time or inclination<BR>to check that right now. <P><BR>"If you can keep your head my son, when all about you are loosing<BR>theirs, and blaming it on you, then you're a man my son." Yes I remember<BR>this, my mom had it up in the diningroom for many many years, and I have<BR>always wanted to find a copy of it <P><BR>Well, I have done it again - just cant shut up can I , just lost all my<BR>points last night completely - who knows if we can now recover from this<BR>one. <P>Yes, I have found out for sure that she is still in contact with the<BR>[censored]. <P>Things have been going well for 4 weeks now, but I have always felt<BR>suspicious. <P><BR>Its was a friend of ours that she works with, birthday yesterday so they stayed for drinks after<BR>work (as I mentioned). <P>our daughter was trying to reach her as she needed the car last night.<BR>our daughter phoned me when I was on the way home from work, neither of us<BR>could get hold of her, she wasnt answering - this was at about 6:45. I<BR>didnt feel good.<P>When I got home I was fed up and told our daughter to take our big car, which I<BR>had been using. She had driven me part wayhome the previuos night and<BR>did just fine.<P>Wife wont let her (20 years old - been driving for 2 years) drive it -<BR>thinks she cant handle it (but she has driven bigger cars than she in<BR>the last 2 years).<P>she was mad because I gave her the car, but as I told her, the kid<BR>needed the car, she was late for a meeting (she knows she goes to these<BR>church meeting on a Wed. night). she eventually phoned me at 7pm. <P>She<BR>could hear I was unhappy. I told her why, we were trying to get hold of<BR>her and she just got mad. <P>She got home and was happy and chirpy. <P>I didnt feel good. While she was in the washroom, I checked her<BR>cellphone - lo and behold - SHE HAD CALLED THE [censored] AT 5:30. I lost<BR>it. <P><BR>I took her up into the bedroom and asked her what was going on, why was<BR>she still in contact with him, she denied it at first.<P>I asked her again to be truthful - she then said he called her so she<BR>called him back, and then flew off the handle about me checking up on<BR>her - I said yes, I was checking up on her, what does she expect. <P>She<BR>had promised both me and the kids that she had finished it with HIM, and<BR>now we find this out.<P>She said she just does not see the big issue I am making about her<BR>speaking to him occasionally....<P>So I did the absolutely wrong thing I started lecturing Her about how I<BR>must feel and does she expect me to just ignore eveything that has<BR>happened, when she has resisted me all the way along in every<BR>waypossible. (thus only looking at things from my selfish perspective<BR>and not hers)<BR>and I am getting no positive feedback from her, I have done my best in<BR>every way to improve, be a happier person and do the best for her.<P>Me overreacting again - only looking at my side of the picture again.<P><BR>She was just mad that I dont trust her and am still checking up on her -<BR>I said to her, yes I am - but she just does not see the point. How am I<BR>expected to trust her when things get hidden from me, she will not<BR>disclose her cellphone account (she said again she doesnt see why - this<BR>is her own private matter)<P><BR>She still does not see what the big deal is all about and why she cannot<BR>speak to him now and again and yes he does call her occasionally - she<BR>promised she hadnt seen him - this I find hard to believe, when she<BR>phoned him at 5:30, then didnt answer her phone, then only got home at 7<BR>pm. <P>By the looks of things she may have his number on speed-dial on her<BR>cellphone - I can not be sure, but suspect so , but dont know exactly<BR>how her phone works. I have never been allowed to sit and fiddle with it<BR>and figure it all out.<P>So I tried to get throuh to her that every single person, marriage<BR>counselling source, doctor, friend etc. I have spoken to have said the<BR>same thing - she has to cut him out completely before we can really sort<BR>things out. <P>But I guess I am bieng too hasty in what should be done - 6 months may<BR>just be the starting point of them stopping being in contact<BR>???????????????????????????????/<P>Yes, I blew it completely again - a big lovebuster, all the good of the<BR>last few weeks out the door. So will have to start all over again. <P><BR>Now she s completely mad at me because I am still checking up on her and<BR>dont trust her anymore. She said she is sick and tired of me treating<BR>her like a child and she does not have any free time. <P>I am being selfish<BR>as far as her free time is concerned. I am being domineering and want<BR>everything my way. She doesnt get anyhelp and is just expected to run<BR>around after everyone. She says she never snoops in my belongings<BR>whereas I have my nose in all her things (yeah, I have become the big<BR>snooper alright) including her handbag. <P>(Yes, tis true - I have becoming<BR>a professional snooper) <P><BR>I said what must she expect, when I have had to force the issue all the<BR>time, and it had to end up in our son challenging her before anything<BR>started to get resolved. So she said well, why dont you go and tell the<BR>kids again what has happened, seen that I always drag them into it when<BR>they have got nothing to do with it and I must keeop my voice down <P><BR>I said to her I have been trying my best to get myself right, try tu put<BR>right what I have done wrong, have tried every avenue, but just met with<BR>resistnace from her, the counselling, the medication, the need to talk,<BR>the articles I have wanted her to read etc. <P><BR>I told her again that I do truly love her, that I want to stay with her,<BR>but she must now make up her mind, I cannot sit on the fence forever<BR>wondering whather true feelings are, where I stand and is she only<BR>around for a while or what? Does she feel it is fair on me when she just<BR>tells me all the time that she needs more time, I must just go on like<BR>nothing has happened and expect it to be all ok, when she distances<BR>herself from me and wont talk. <P><BR>I again asked her so what way can I help her out then, she said go make<BR>dinner for yourself and your son, she didnt want any, she was going out<BR>- I then challenegd her and said its the same story again, everytime we<BR>get into conflict she wants to walk away <P><BR>She then said well, how does she know what I am up to at work with the<BR>girls anyhow, how does she know there is nothing going on, I dont tell<BR>her eveything that happens at work, I have bought some of them pizza<BR>sometimes, so why should I complain if the [censored] (not her words of<BR>course) takes her out to lunch or coffee occassionally. <P><BR>She does just not realise how faithful her husband is, I have told her<BR>whenever I have gone out somewhere, who I have been with (except for the<BR>odd occasions when I have been out with Marcel and been a naughty boy -<BR>and I have apologized for it). I do my best to phone her when I am going<BR>to be home lat (I do occasionally forget) - and have even been honest<BR>and open with her when my friend from work has taken me to the Strip-clubs once or<BR>twice. I have even been open and honest about telling which family<BR>members I have told about whats been going on. <P>So straight away she<BR>said, well there is the phone, why dont you just phone them and tell<BR>them all over again what has happened. <P><BR>I asked her if I am being selfish - she said to a degree yes, especially<BR>with her free time. <P><BR>So, what can we learn from this - shut up, take all the crap we have to<BR>for as long as it takes, humble ourselves, and just treat them like<BR>queens for as long as it takes, but do not lose our dignity in the<BR>process. A thin line and sometimes you fall off the edge and have to<BR>suffer the consequences. <P><BR>What have I learnt - do not force youself onto them, try and be patient,<BR>let them do their thing, whatever they want, but hopefully if we can be<BR>strong and hang in there and show them we love them and want them, but<BR>are prepared to wait for them - we just have a slight chance that we may<BR>win - its a tough road - tougher than I ever imagined. <P><BR>I know I am now back to square one, and maybe, just maybe, I may still<BR>have a chance of restoring our marriage this time, who knows. It feels<BR>now like we have stepped back 6 months. <P><BR>Again she said to me that she does love me but cannot take this anymore,<BR>and she is just going to have to leave. She is just totally mad that I<BR>am checking up on her. <P><BR>I also said that I am trying in my own way to stabilize myself, Iknow I<BR>have depression and the anti-deps and counselling have helped me to try<BR>and get in the right direction, I have been trying my best to right<BR>myself, but would appreciate some feedback too. She said yes, she has<BR>seen some improvement in my attitude so I asked her what is so difficult<BR>in her at least mentioning it to me. <P>She retorted that cant I see it<BR>that she is also suffering from depression, I sad yes I know she is and<BR>why wont she go to the doctor too, the anti-deps do not fix everything,<BR>but they do help you cope better <P><BR>She cannot take being treated like a child. I said fine if thats the way<BR>she feels but I dont feel it is right - I want to try every way possible<BR>to sort things out. why cant we talk to each other properly. <P><BR>I said to her all I want is to sit down and talk rationally about her<BR>feelings, our feelings, our future, find a way of sorting this out<BR>properly, not just ignoring what has happened. <P>She says it doesnt help<BR>becasue everytime I just get mad and shout and it just ends up like<BR>this. <P><BR>So I am missing the big picture not letting her spaek rationally and not<BR>listening to her - she says she is **** scared to try and talk to me<BR>about it because I just go off the deep end. <P><BR>So you see you have been getting the wrong picture from me all along. <P><BR>I also acted very irrationally by giving our daughter the big white car last<BR>night, instead of giving her a lift where she wanted to go. <P><BR>she was really ticked off about this. <P><BR>By 10pm she was really mad, she opened the washing machine. The previous<BR>night she ad loaded up a load of whites to wash, asked our daughter to put<BR>the rest of her things in in the morning. our daughter added all her<BR>colorstuf and a red sweater and let the machine run. she of<BR>course opened the machine and blew her lid. The water level had not been<BR>adjusted either so everything was tangled up. Of course I got it in the<BR>neck "If she cant even load the washing machine at the age of 20 and not<BR>bugger the clothes up, how do you think she is going to treat the big<BR>new car?....... <P>You better get hold of her right now, I am sick of her<BR>attitude, I get no help from her, but when I do she is just careless and<BR>screws up. Why the hell didnt you give her a lift instead of letting her<BR>take the car, shes gonna smash it up." <P><BR>So we tried to get hold of our daughter, but she wasnt answering her<BR>cellphone and she went off the handle again, so I got fed up and shouted<BR>at her that I am sorry that I gave her the car. our son at this point<BR>disappeared upstairs. If she had at least answreed her phone when we<BR>were ttrying to get hold of her it all could have been avoided - so then<BR>I got crapped out for trying to push the blame onto her. <P><BR>She was then upset and when I tried to apo0logise to her but said I am<BR>also getting tired of being screamed at so she started throwing things<BR>around and banging cupboard doors. <P><BR>I got dressed again and told her I was going looking for our daughter<BR>(11pm), she said thats a bit late to do that now. I slammed the door and<BR>pushed off. <P><BR>I found our daughter at a restaurant where she was having dinner with her<BR>friends, called her out, told her hat she was totally pissed off because<BR>I gave her the car and that we had been trying to phone her because it<BR>was so late, told our daughter she better get her butt home quickly, took<BR>the white car and went home. <P><BR>I then told her that I had been to the doctor that day, he had given me<BR>more anti-deps and was happy with my progress on them. He has also<BR>arranged for an appointmant with a specialist to see what can be done<BR>about my snoring. she got upset again and wanted to know why I hadnt<BR>told her beforehand that I was going - this is a good example of how I<BR>dont tell her things that I am doing (I ommitted to tell her becuase I<BR>know she is not really in favour of me taking the anti-deps anyhow). <P><BR>I took my pillows and sleeping bag and went downstairs. she washed up<BR>and then our daughter came home. I then asked our daughter why she messed up the<BR>washing - she said she thought she was doing a good thing by doing the<BR>washing - she then blasted her about mixing the colors up etc. our daughter<BR>then asked her if she could show her how to do it properly - she said<BR>not now, some other time. <P><BR>our daughter closed her door, she slammed the bedroom door, I put the lights<BR>out, got myself a beer and a smoke to try and calm down <P><BR>our daughter was crying her eyes out in her bedroom - I wanted to go talk to<BR>her but knew I better not - I would be seen as siding with our daughter. <P><BR>she came out her room, went and spoke gently with our daughter. <P><BR>Then I did a nother very stupid thing, took Ave's cellphone and went<BR>into the toilet to try and figure out how she had set up his number, but<BR>she had erased it. Next minute she knocked on the door and wanted me out<BR>of there. I came out and she asked "so, where is it?". I gave it to her<BR>and said take it, she said "Oh, this is just great, you cant keep your<BR>hands off anything" <P><BR>She then said, well if you are quite finished can I now lock the front<BR>door. I said I was quite capable myself (believe it or not) <P>She pushed<BR>off upstarirs and again agve me hell for slamming the front door and<BR>what would the neighbours think - this late at night... I then got mad<BR>and told her not to talk to me about slamming doors after the way she<BR>had been slamming things around tonight. <P><BR>She went upstairs and I said to her that we have got to have a serious<BR>talk - she replied what for - she cant see anything to talk about. <P><BR>end of that <P><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>Yes, will firstly I wonder how she really feels - is she just mixed up and confused because life has not turned out like she expected it to, is she disappointed in me and what she has been dealt up with, does she really want ONLY me in her life now, or does she still feel she needs someone to supplement her life right now. <BR>I am so confused right now I dont know if I am coming or going. <BR>How she really feels about the kids is difficult to say, she does love them, but gets very fed up with them, feels they are walking all over them that they should be acting more grownup but at te same time feels that they are still her kids and wants to treat then like kids. <BR>I can see all that is left now is to just try and be as close to the perfect husband as what she wants me to be - (still trying to figure that out right now - what exactly does she want - but suppose again I have missed it - just be supportive, unselfish, undemanding, non-domineering, trusting, loving but not suffocating, let go of the reins, more helpful, less dependant, less touchy, ignore some things, be a man not a snivelling nervous wreck, unwanting, more accommodating, fitter and stronger, less controlling, less suspicious, less miserable, stop being so very cynical, less possessive, respect her "private life" , etc) and forget about my feelings and needs and HOPEFULLY it will eventually be sufficient for her, if she hasnt found something better in the meantime. <BR>I should really stop this - all you are getting is one side of the picture and story all the time, it is not good. Even my own children seem to have better sense about it all. <BR>Just feel exhausted and at a loss of exactly what to do. <BR>I have now spent half a day here at work with very little done, so better get myself jacked up. <BR>I just wish someone would get through to her that it is just not on that she can still have contact with this [censored]. Yes, I call him a [censored] because he sucked her into this (fair enough she went willingly after a while), made her feel sorry for him, then took advantage of her - hey I do know a bit how a mans mind works - all along he was just after getting her in bed, I know his type. he saw this lovely attractive lady who was all upset and he pulled her in rescued her from her problems and succeeded in getting her into his pants. Believe it or not from a mans point of view it is a lot more sex-related than a womans point of view. She is attractive, sexy and a damn good lay. <BR>As I have said before - you can see it by his actions - passing crude pornographic jokes onto her, his mind is more on sex than anything else. <BR>How do I get through to her that she is possibly on the brink of losing her whole family if she doesnt stop this nonsense? I love her very much but how much am I supposed to swallow, how much more must I just let go by, or is it me that is too apprehensive and expect too much at once. That I am not seeing her feelings and problems clear enough? <BR>Maybe she has only been in contact with him once or twice in the last few weeks, but I am not so sure, I cant say her track record is particularly good, is it, or maybe I am oversuspicious and expect too much at once , but then again I feel this has gone on long enough now, its not just a matter of weeks, hey, this all started over a year ago. <BR>She has even got me thinking now that I really am the miserable [censored] and blowing this out of proportion, but how can I be expected to not be suspicious or concerned, but I do honestly think that she has a problem. <BR>Again last night she wasnt feeling good and was a bit tearful, I said to her she should really get to the doctor and go and talk to him, and not to be afraid to openly talk if she is depressed - She just said, dont worry I am ok - the same attitude all the time. She also said she has put on quite a bit of weight over the last few months and has no enthusiasm or inclination to lose it. None of the enthusiasm that she had before summer last year - but now I see why - both her and the [censored] were both on a weight loss thing as I can remember her saying that he had also lost about 20 pounds early last year and was trying hard to lose some more weight. So, now it is not such a high-priority item on her agenda anymore as she doesnt have to do it for and with him - not that it really matters that much to me, but just another stab-woud that she found it so important to lose weight for him and their relationship last year but it is not so important now that she is not jumping into bed with him, its just me that she has to put up with and satisfy now. She lost an incredible amount of weight before last summer and was at her slimmest since we got married. <BR>You know, just maybe, there could be something about this menopause business, as she revealed it last night that the guys at work were kidding her last week because on Wednesday she was feeling very flushed and hot at work, while everyone else was feeling quite cool, she had to take off her jersey and go outside a few times because she was burning up she was so hot. I just cackled and said well maybe it is early menopause and that she should then really go to the doctor and get it checked out - she got quite indignant and said no ways does she have menopause. <BR>I am sorry but still do not accept that this menopause, if she really is suffering from it, is the root cause of her actions and behaviour at all. Again I said to her she really needs to go get checked out because she is really ruining her health. <BR>Also I stressed again last night to her to go and get her sinus problem sorted out - it was quite obvious that she was suffering from very bad sinus passage inflmation as a result of the sawdust in the air from me cuting up all the wood - even though she didnt help me sweep up, she was still in and out while I was busy on Saturday and Sunday and woke up on Sunday with a very puffy face and very sore sinus passages, there was still a lot of fine sawdst in the air. Again I told her that she should really get to the Workers Compensation Board and see if it is as a result of the chemical fumes that have damaged her (I am absolutely sure of this being a lot of her sinus problems, not just a matter of growing older - I am not exaggerating when I say how much pain she has gone through in the last 3 years since startin to work for that bloody Vision Printing Company - yes, she has always been very sensitive to chemicals and perfumes etc, but absolutely nothing like now) and again stressed to her that I think that the last thing she should be worrying about is the feelings or effect this may have on the bosses and people she worked with at Vision - her health is much much more important than anyone that she worked with there. (I Know the relationship with this [censored] is possibly holding her back on doing something about it.) She said last night that she will maybe call WCB this week. Here's hoping that she does something about it and just doesnt forget about it again when the pain subsides. <BR>I am getting to the point of not knowing which way to turn anymore. I just dont know why also that she feels she can still mess the kids around like this after promising our son that she was going to end it all, and now is still in contact with the [censored]. She still wants me to keep the kids out of it, but how can I cover up and just lie to the kids that everything is well, in the meantime she is not being truthful with our son too - this is hurting me too. Maybe I am overreacting again, but I can see that the kids have lost some respect for her, but have been gaining more and more confidence with her so am sitting betwixt and between on whether to mention it to them or just let it go, but then run the risk of them finding out and then disrespecting not only her but also me again. <BR>Anyhow let me try and get some work done, I nearly ended up in big trouble at work this morning as some work that my guys had to do this weekend was delayed by a few hours because they couldnt get into the building where they had to do the work after hours, something that I should have made sure was organized Thursday last week, but with this upset with her again last week, I was not thinking very clearly. This was a close call and fortunately, just before the guy was going to give up and go home, someone came out the building and he was able to get in. The work was done a few hours later than scheduled, but so far we have had no complaints from the Customers that were affected by this outage. So here's hoping that this one will go unnoticed. It does sound very mean that I am putting the blame on my home problems for my slipping up at work - but some of it is very true, I do feel very mixed up with everything that is going on. <BR>I know I am again feeling very suspicious - yea I need to know for sure how much she has been in contact with him the last few weeks, and for sure I most probably would end up approaching her with her cellphone phonebills if I can get my hands on them and no additional evidence of whether she is actually seeing him or not, but I feel the phone story is sufficient - maybe the monitoring her timing every day will help, but I know she will still challenge this as me treating her like a child and not giving her her space that she needs. So, short of hiring a private detective, which is basically out of the question because of the expense, and she will definitely find out about it when the bills are paid, I am stuffed. <BR>Also I know that my cynicism every now and then, like on Saturday most probably does not help matters at all either, so basically I am most probably more at fault than anyone right now for the way things are going. <BR>Actually I have got to the point where I am exhausted and half of me is just saying, forget it all, admit defeat, let her do her own thing, whatever she wants - whether it means she wants both of us or whatever and just go on living a lie or whatever else t takes just to stay sane and bugger what the kids think about me for not being able to convince her that she is doing wrong - yes, just let her have her fun and games and I will just go on and try more successfully earn a living to support the family's needs. My feelings and needs for love and intimacy just dont really matter anymore (this sounds pathetic, doesnt it). <BR>I just feel I dont have the energy to fight anymore - I have tried to show her it is not right but, like so many other things that have happened in the past, my advice or suggestions just do not mean anything to her. <BR>Who am I to complain, we have had 22 pretty good years and must just be fortunate that we have had this in comparison to so many others. So, let her just get on with what she wants in life and take what I can get from her along the way - Yes, I sound very selfish, when she is working so hard and trying to fit everything in at work and at home and cope with her own emotions. I just find it so very very difficult to cope with being there every night and not truly knowing what is going on, even though she says that she does love me but tha I do not believe her. <BR>I am sorry but this last discovery has just taken the last strength out of me, so lets see how the next few weeks will pan out , maybe I am blowing it out of proportion, but am getting tired now of trying to hold up my side and just getting kicked in the pants everytime. I am just tired of living with continuous doubt, and fear, and the feeling that whatever I do is not going to make any difference anyhow, she will still do what she wants to, I just feel I cant fight it anymore. <BR>I just feel like disappearing away from it all for however long it takes, but know I cannot let the kids down. <BR>Sorry, just not feeling all that good today. <BR>Anyhow, you say I should be just more or less ignoring her and work on myself, was it not me ignoring her in the first place where all this started - by me concentrating all my efforts to stay employed so as to bring home enough to cover our expenses? <BR>I fully understand what you are sayinghere and I am getting closer to telling her to get out if she cannot see reason and the need to break off from him completely. Hopefully our blowup last week will wake her up to the fact again that I am not just going to let her do as she pleases. <BR>One of her complaints against me was that I was not understanding and sympathetic to her needs, so have to tread carefully here with her, she will very easily throw it in my face that I am ignoring her and not listening to her and not romancing her etc. <BR>I am now tired and going home, had enough for one day. <BR>Again last night, after she had her afternoon sleep, as she was so sore wth sinus pain, she couldnt sleep last night and my snoring was disturbing her, so I ended up get up at midnight and sleeping downstairs on the sofa. <P><BR>I am just so curious about everything.<P>I noticed when I checked her cellphone last week and found she had phoned the [censored] (she slipped up this once, usually she clears off the log of outgoing calls she make) - I saw that she had entered *83 before she dialed the number - *836035808. I am wondering why she did this?<P>I said to her last night, tell me, I am curious, why did you dial *83 before you dialed his number, she said I dont know, he told me to do that quite a while ago when I phone him, I said to her, oh, I get the picture, then it most probably doesnt show up on your call listing. She got so upset and gave me hell "Are'nt you ever gonna let this go, you just cant give up and forget about it, you are never going to let me live it down, you are never going to let us get on with our lives" So, I said to her "Well, angel, what do you expect, all I am trying to get is some truth and honesty" She got so mad and said "Dont you call me ANGEL, I am not your angel" and slammed the iron down (she was doing some ironing). Just then our daughter walked in, so I changed the subject and started talking about something else.<P>I bet you the [censored] knows I have been checking her phone, and has told her to do this so that it doesnt show on her call listing, or it doesnt show on his call listing so that his wife finds out they are still in contact.<P>Thanks I get your point as you have written below. I know now that this last time I should have told her straight to leave our home, but again I was too soft because I love her so much, all I want to do is restore our marriage to a position of trust.<P>Yes, my son is still a bit young, but the poor guy has been involved in it right fom the word go so i do feel I have to let him know what is going on, more than once he has asked me if we are going to get divorced, but I have told him I have no intention and I just want her to stop her nonsense, we are a family and have gone through a lot in the last few years and I am not just going to give it all up because of this stupid affair. He has already told my wife that he still has nightmares of seeing the two of them kissing in the park last summer. No wonder he has been experimenting with pot/marijuana - of corse my wife thinks this is just because of the friends he is keeping.<P>One part of me says get rid of her, the other part of me says get this sorted out and get on with life, she has a problem, I have helped her before with problems and I can help her with this.<P>Yes, I know she did it, but I still blame this senseless immoral, big-penised ******* for drawing her in so that he could get into her panties. I am sure he has done this before.<P>How I would love to be able to get hold of his wife and have a good talk with her, but he doesnt have a listed telephone number (only his cellphone), and I only have his P.O. Box mailing address and dont know where they stay. He looks like a real slimy [censored] to me.<P>Would you have felt the same if your boyfriend/husband had found out and kept on checking up on you and got mad when he found out you were still incontact with OM, would you also have tried to push the blame onto your husband for his actions?<P>I will get to the bottom of all this.<P>

Kevan, during my A I did exactly what your W is doing now - especially the business with the cell phone. I told my H that he was treating me like a child, that I had no privacy, etc. My H took my cell phone MANY times in an attempt to discover what was going on. In retrospect, how can I possibly blame him? I denied over and over that there was something going on - even in the face of some pretty damning evidence.<P>I hate to say this, but it's very possible that your W is still seeing the OM. And if she's not and is just in contact with him by phone, it's still a dangerous situation because the A could start up again.<P>As you know, there can be NO CONTACT. Having contact with OM just keeps the door open. It will be almost impossible for your W to recommit to your marriage if OM is waiting in the wings.<P>IMHO, you're not doing anything wrong by questioning your W. You have a right to know what is happening and if she has nothing to hide she shouldn't mind you asking. My H asks me questions on occasion and I answer every one of them. It's a trust-building measure that I'm very happy to do.<P>I'll keep you in my prayers, Kevan. {{{{{BIG HUG}}}}}

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susie7753:<BR><B><BR>IMHO, you're not doing anything wrong by questioning your W. You have a right to know what is happening and if she has nothing to hide she shouldn't mind you asking. My H asks me questions on occasion and I answer every one of them. It's a trust-building measure that I'm very happy to do.<P>I'll keep you in my prayers, Kevan. {{{{{BIG HUG}}}}}</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks SUzie, I have had enough, I am tired of fighting, she can do what she wants. I know I am too soft to tell her to go.<BR>Weakling #1<BR>Sounds pathetic doesnt it

Kevan, you are NOT a weakling! I know all of this is tiring, but you have to work at it if you want to save your marriage. What I'd suggest is that you return to the counselor - you can't do this alone. Without counseling, I don't think my H and I would be married anymore.<P>BTW, I think your W is VERY foolish to let this go on and possibly lose a special man who loves her very much. I'll keep up the prayers and {{{{Hugs}}}}.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susie7753:<BR><B>Kevan, you are NOT a weakling! I know all of this is tiring, but you have to work at it if you want to save your marriage. What I'd suggest is that you return to the counselor - you can't do this alone. Without counseling, I don't think my H and I would be married anymore.<P>BTW, I think your W is VERY foolish to let this go on and possibly lose a special man who loves her very much. I'll keep up the prayers and {{{{Hugs}}}}.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Thanks for the encouragement. You are a wonderful person and your husband is a very very fortunate man to have someone like you.<P>I will just count my blessings and stop moaning.<P>Someday it will come right.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susie7753:<BR><B>Kevan, you are NOT a weakling! I know all of this is tiring, but you have to work at it if you want to save your marriage. ........<BR>I'll keep up the prayers and {{{{Hugs}}}}.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How do I get thru to this woman of mine?<P>When I am happy then she seems ok. As soon as I want to talk to her about us, she gets mad.<P>The school phoned my wife yesterday, my 16 year-old son is failing grade 11 English. She asked him what is wrong and he broke down in tears. Says he cant match up to his sister and is battling. The school wants to arrange a session with the school counsellor and have warned my wife if there are any outbursts at the meeting, Kevin will be taken out of the room and it will be over. I havent had the chance to ask my son what he told the teacher of what is wrong and if he mentioned any of the problems we are having at home.<P>I know I cannot blame it all on my wife but I know that the affair and especially with him discovering them kissing in the park has had a drastic effect on him. <BR>Then my wife slapping him up when he challenged her to give up her lover and give the OM the gold bracelet back.<BR>My wife will not accept this and just says he is just lazy, prefers to be out with his friends and he needs to be better disciplined by me, I am too soft on him. She says he has just got to get his backside into gear and do some work. There is nothing further to discuss. His excuses are just a cop-out. He is never home when she gets home. I told her maybe its because she gets home so late every night - she just got mad with me.<P>I am still waiting for the right opportunity to approach her again about her cellphone account and why she has again changed the mailing address to her work address, but will have to wait for the right opportunity.<P>I am just completely tired out from this continuous battle.<P>I told my wife on Sunday night that I love her more than she realises, but cannot take it anymore, she is just breaking my heart and that I am breaking up inside. She seemed a bit taken aback by this. She did actually look like she was feeling sorry.<BR>By bedtime I was really feeling like one big knot inside, but still kept a happy face. <P>But there is still no forthcoming comment or commitment from her that she has ended it or is going to end it completely with the OM.<P>I have laso found out why she dials *82# in front of his number when she calls him on her cellphone. It activates his caller ID so that he can see that she is calling him - the [censored] - just so that he can see its her and answer accordingly depending on whose company he is in at the time.<P>I will catch the swine out yet one of these days and make a real fool out of him.

Kevan, I read the paragraph about your son with great concern. Regardless of what your W thinks, her actions have had a serious effect on him. I can tell you first hand about the effect a mother's actions have on a child because my H and I went thru that with his exW. Kevan, your son needs counseling and he needs it NOW. You've said that your W thinks it's too expensive, but there can be no better investment than in your and your son's mental health.<P>Your W is still deep in the fog, and unfortunately it is hurting everyone in the family. Her continued contact with OM makes it impossible for her to see the situation clearly.<P>If she continues with OM, you may have to resort to Plan B. I'd keep up Plan A for a while longer, but somewhere along the line you'll need to assert yourself. Just know that you have lots of support here. Feel free to e-mail me if you need to vent (susie7753@yahoo.com).<P>The fact that your W seemed sad when you said that she's breaking your heart could be a positive sign. Just keep showing her that you love her. I know it's difficult when you're hurting so badly, but you can do it - I get the impression that you don't give up easily!

Kevan, Suzie is SOOOO right about the fog. You're right to not believe your W right now. I suspect there's more going on also. <P>Are you in an actice Plan A? My opinion -- as hard, hard, hard as it is, put the pain and anger aside and take care of 1) yourself and 2) those kids. Mine are much younger but suffered so much after dday, and they didn't have the bonus trauma of actually WITNESSING a parents infidelity like your son did. <P>I would detatch emotionally, physically, until she decided to be truthful and civil. Maybe Plan B time? I don't know. She sounds like she's so wrapped up in her own little world that she can't even see how she's affecting her children, let alone you. <P>And some good advice that I got today which you might consider also. I cannot control the choice my H makes, but I have complete control over my choices. I have in the past chosen to act and react to my emotions, as have you. We need to change that for our own good!<P>Hope you get through today okay. You're in my thoughts.<P>Snow<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowwhite:<BR><B>Kevan, Suzie is SOOOO right about the fog. You're right to not believe your W right now. I suspect there's more going on also. <P>...<P>Hope you get through today okay. You're in my thoughts.<P>Snow</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks again all you good guys out there.<P>I phoned the teacher today and filled her in with what has happened in the last year - not to shed a bad light on my wife, but at least to support and protect my son. My daughter is right behind me with this too.<P>If this is going to cause another blow-up with my wife, then so be it. It is enough nonsense now and the kid is still hurting badly.<P>She hasnt even sat down and told him whether she has given it up eith the pig or not. My son is too afraid to ask in case it causes another scene. I talk with him whenever I get the chance, but he doesnt even want to talk much to me about it. He is going away on a rock-climbing and hiking weekend this coming weekend.<P>Thanks again for the support.<P>One day up one day down, but there is light, and yes, I do not give up easily, especially when I know I am right.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevan:<BR><B> Thanks again all you good guys out there.<P>She hasnt even sat down and told him whether she has given it up with the pig or not. My son is too afraid to ask in case it causes another scene. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well another weekend gone, quite good too.<P>My son went on his rock-climbing trip down to Washington state and thoroughly enjoyed it - just what he needed - to get away.<P>Our weekend wasnt bad. Despite her regular Saturday "shopping" trip, she was with me most of the weekend.<BR>We went away for the day on Sunday and stayed over in a hotel - even managed to make love the next morning, although I could feel her heart wasnt in it and she put up some resistance - almost like she was just doing it for my sake. She is still not intimate with me at all. It is always me looking for a hug and a kiss. She did have a good orgasm though, although I didnt, My penis just isnt so sensitive at the moment and I battle to have an orgasm sometimes, maybe it is the anti-deps I am on - Celexa. <BR>Also she does still feel quite soft and stretched inside. I always used to have an orgasm very quickly, almost premature ejaculation most of the time. She was always very tight before. Maybe it is just my imagination.<P>So, tomorrow my wife is going to a meeting with my son and the school counsellor. She has been doing her best to get me to go instead of her, but I have made sure I cannot go. I know she is not happy about this again, because she feels that the responsibility of the children falls on her everytime and I am just side-stepping and dont want to take the responsibility. But this time I know that she must go and sort it out with the counsellors. Lets see if they have the guts to stand up to her and tell her that my son needs help and is still distraught over her affair. I wonder if they have the backbone to do it.<BR>Yes, she still feels that it is just a load of nonsense and that my son is just looking for excuses to cover his laziness.<P>Maybe these teachers will just say something that wiill wkae her up into realising that she must now come right and stop her nonsense.<P>She also still does not realise the friction she is causing by keeping her cellphone bill "private". This is something that I must still straighten out with her. If she thinks I must trust her under these circumstances she has got another thought coming.<P>So, how else do I get through to her, when she refuses to talk to anyone about the affair (except OM of course).<P><BR>?????????????????????????????????????