Kevan, it's possible that you can obtain copies of your W's cell phone bill. Call the company and see if they can help you.<P>Glad to hear that your W will be the one to go to the school counselor, although I don't know if they will say anything to her about her A (they may feel it's none of their business and may simply mention that they're aware of problems at home).<P>Let us know how it goes. {{{{Hugs}}}}

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susie7753:<BR><B>Kevan, it's possible that you can obtain copies of your W's cell phone bill. Call the company and see if they can help you.<P><BR>Let us know how it goes. {{{{Hugs}}}}</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You dont know how much I would love to get my hands on copies of her cellphone bills but cannot let her know what I am doing.<P>Well, back to work again today, was a good weekend all in all, even though my wife didn’t really enjoy our day out at Harrison. she says sitting around a dusty campsite and around a smoky fire is not really her scene, although we did have a nice walk through the forests around the lake. She says she much prefers the beach with some nice waves and sand to walk on. I guess everyone has their own thing. For me it was nice to get out for the day and relax and chat and have a few beers with our friends (maybe a few too many - but what the heck, we were there for the whole day and evening, so who's counting, don’t do it all the time). It is a lovely little lake we went to, no speedboats allowed so very little noise, even though it was a bit chilly. <P>So of course I know I am again not in the best of books for shirking my responsibilities with Our son and the school and counselor and leaving it all to My wife - as she has told me many times. <BR>I do feel a bit guilty about this type of thing and suppose do in my own way excuse it by saying that I talk to the kids whenever I can and try and discuss things with them. <BR>Again this morning I have these doubts - why still the secrecy with the phone account? <BR>I also wonder if she did really give him back the gold bracelet from Christmas? <BR>Why cant I get rid of these doubts, why are they still there so strong? <BR>Am I dwelling too much on this, am I not giving her a chance, am I making too much of a big thing of it? <BR>Is it because she still has doubts in me? Why the constant resistance to anything about this affair and friendship from her? Why have I had to force everything out of her? <BR>I do still feel like I am forcing everything my way, am I missing something here? <BR>I managed to have a bit of a chat with one of our lady-friends while we were camping - she too is still puzzled by my wife's actions - as she says, my wife will not speak to her about it at all, and has not mentioned it to her at all, but knows she wont, because my wife will not hear anything from them that she wants to hear, only the truth. I really do not want to poison everyone against my wife, even though it may seem to the contrary right now, but I do really want to try and help her get over her problems too. <BR>This lady-friend also spoke to some of her relations while in SA who are into counseling (didn’t mention our names though - just the problems we have been having). They said that until My wife is willing to come out and address her fears and problems she has had since she was young and the effect of her parents divorce on her etc. etc. that she will never deal with this clearly and openly. <BR>I know this is an answer that you do often hear from counselors, maybe sometimes just too often and we tend to brush it off as another cop-out, that everything is due to a bad childhood etc., but maybe there is some truth in it. I know I have often said too that it is a load of hogwash and an easy way of just blaming problems on bad childhood. <BR>I don’t really think that I want my children to end up with these types of hang-ups one day too, they have enough to deal with these days without something like this hanging around their necks too. <BR>I suppose we all have our hang-ups somewhere. <BR>It is just so difficult when someone is so stubborn and will not see some reason and will not accept this type of help - almost like they don’t want to admit to a "weakness" in themselves <BR>It always seems the same, by the end of the weekend I am feeling better about things, but one day into the week and again I have my doubts about what she is doing and if she is still speaking to him from work or after work. Almost as if I feel ok when she is with me but as soon as she isn’t, then everything comes flooding back again. <BR>Somehow I have got to concentrate more on my job too. <BR>Lets see how it goes with the counselor - but like Our daughter said this morning - the big issue the counselors have to deal with, is not with My wife, but rather helping Our son through this rough patch. <BR>I am going to the specialist this week to see if there is anything that can be done about the snoring. <P>Yes my mind is working overtime again. <BR>I went for a walk at lunchtime again and was just thinking... <BR>If anything she has at least proven to herself, if no-one else, that she is still attractive enough to win the heart and soul of someone else by what she has done in the last year. <BR>What made me think of this again was I remembered another close friend, his wife, my wife and myself sitting on the beach early last year summer and we were joking around and I can distinctly remember my friend passing a comment that neither of the two ladies had any chance of picking someone up at their age, they were passed it. <BR>I am sure that my friend meant absolutely no harm by that comment, it was all just jokingly and can remember thinking at the time, you don’t realize how wrong you are. <BR>I don’t think this is what triggered it off as I am sure things were well under way with the affair by this time although these friends knew absolutely nothing about it, but just wonder if this added any fuel to the fire with My wife in being more determined to prove herself capable. <BR>Of course if I had to raise this with my wife I would be told I am off my head and just cant lay things aside or stop laying guilt on her. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susie7753:<BR><B>Kevan, it's possible that you can obtain copies of your W's cell phone bill. Call the company and see if they can help you.Let us know how it goes. {{{{Hugs}}}}</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I havent been around here for a while, anyhow, cant say things ahve improved much except I am just gettin very impatient with her nonsense<P>So, hows this for a classic example of me being insensitive:<P>She went out last night to a "function" with the divorcee buddy that I just love to hate ( at the church she goes to-), she phoned me after work to tell me she was on her way and both kids had gone out too, I said I may go to a club here downtown where one of the ladies we work with was singing in a band and had invited us all, straight away I could hear that she wasnt very happy with this, but I told her I had to come home first with my friend and then take our car as he wasnt going with - I told her just to leave me some money for dinner.<P>Anyhow, by the time I got home I was too tired and didnt feel like driving back downtown, so stayed at home, bought a Kentucky Burger and did some work on the computer at home. She came home just after 10pm, looked tired and irritable and walked in the door with some papers, sweater etc in her hands. I looked up and said hi, how are you and asked her what she had in her hands - she looked at me grumpily and said what does it matter, and walked off. I went on working. She had a chat with my daughter in the livingroom about her evening, but I couldnt hear what they were saying. She came back into the kitchen (I was thinking - it would have been nice is she came and gave me a kiss hello), she asked me if I went out, I said no, I was too tired, then went on working, then I asked her how her "Party" went, she retorted "It wasnt a PARTY, but it was nice" and started fiddling around.<P>I then stood up, went into the kitchen and said to her, well, am I going to get a kiss hello, and asked her what was wrong with her, why was she so peed off, she got so mad then said "Well, you dont even move or pick your head up from the PC when I walk in what do you expect, then you start questioning me..." I said well, I was in the middle of typing something up, just thought it would be nice if for once you came and gave me a kiss hello, and what about all the past months that I have come home and had to stand there like a fool waiting to get a kiss from you when you were busy in the kitchen or sometimes walked past me a few tmes before you were ready to kiss me hello, she just got mad again and said "Oh, please just dont start with me again, I feel sick from the desserts, I just want to go upstairs and get sick" and walked upstairs to the bathroom and closed the door.<P>So should I have been more sensitive there and dropped whatever I was doing and jumped up and kissed her hello and asked her all about her evening immdiately when she walked in?<P>Ten minutes later I went upstairs, asked her if she wanted some ENO's, just got grumble at, which I ignored, then asked her again what her evening was like, she then told me how lovely it was, fashion show, someone gave their testimony, they were all served by the husbands etc. I said it sounded like it was very nice.<P>As it was getting late, I then asked her if it was ok with her if I had a shower, but that she didnt have to leave, she could stay and talk while I was showering, she just said no, and walked out.<P>At around 11:10, I went upstairs to kiss her goodnight and then said to her well, I dont suppose there is much chance of a cuddle and some intimacy before bedtime, then is there, she just glared at me and said, cant you see I am feeling sick and besides I am very tired and need to get to sleep, so I just said goodnight and wlaked out and closed the door and went downstairs. But of course she never put the light out until after 11:30.... too tired to have a bit of a cuddle, but not too tired to sit and do whatever else.......<P>This morning, when I was on my way out to work, she was in the bathroom getting ready to shower, I knocked and walked in to kiss her goodbye, and caught her standing there in the nude, she was quite upset, pushed me away, then gave me a quick kiss and got in the shower. A few minutes later I went back in and asked her if she had a few bucks for me for lunch as I didnt make anything for myself, she was still in the shower and snapped at me "well, I gave you $20 for gas and so on last night, what have you done, have you spent it all?"<P>I said no, buy I did but myself dinner and must still put in gas to get to work as she left the tank empty for me. She then said "Oh, then just take some out my purse, but I dont have much anyhow"<P>This sucks, getting cross-questioned and given the third degree over $20 and a few bucks for lunch - this really pees me off, but yet if I draw some cash myself she insists that I tell her so that she knows where it is all going so that she can manage the budget better...................<P>The sooner she gets the hell back to SA I think will be better for both of us, and at least I see she has made some enquiries on plane tickets ( I asked her last night if the divorcee girlfriend ***** [not using those words] who knows everything and can always get everything cheaper, can still get some discounted tickets for us as she said she could 2 weeks ago, but she said no, they have gone up in price). She has made some enquiries for prices for the middle of this month, but has found out it will cost about $500 more than if she waits until September, I just told her, well, not to worry about that, she has to go and finished with............<P>With her gone at least my frustrations will be quite reduced and not having her there and getting frustrated because I am so attracted to her but not allowed to get close to her....This doesnt sound good does it????<P>I could also go on all day telling you about the grief we have had from the in-laws, but I have already mentioned a fair amount to you before and really wouldnt want to bore you any further. By the way I get on very well with her real dad and the lady he married (not her stepdad, he is a real *******) and we have always been good friends, even now.<P>Hugs<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevan:<BR><B><BR>So, hows this for a classic example of me being insensitive:<BR>Hugs<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey I am also tired now of being the one on anti-deps, ending up at counselors, sleeping on the sofa, when it wasnt me that had the affair...................<P>How much does a person have to take????

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevan:<BR><B>So, hows this for a classic example of me being insensitive...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, actually, kevan, to be perfectly honest...<P>You really <I>have</I> provided a classic example of insensitive behavior, and yes I mean <I>your</I> behavior, not just your wife's.<P>Would you like a blow-by-blow analysis?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B> Well, actually, kevan, to be perfectly honest...<P>You really <I>have</I> provided a classic example of insensitive behavior, and yes I mean <I>your</I> behavior, not just your wife's.<P>Would you like a blow-by-blow analysis?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, please I am not joking, I need every bit of help I can get, if I am doing things wrong all over.<BR>

Don't assume my analysis is 100% valid, but this is what I see...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevan:<BR><B>She came home just after 10pm, looked tired and irritable and walked in the door with some papers, sweater etc in her hands. I looked up and said hi, how are you and asked her what she had in her hands - she looked at me grumpily and said what does it matter, and walked off. I went on working. She had a chat with my daughter in the livingroom about her evening, but I couldnt hear what they were saying. She came back into the kitchen (I was thinking - it would have been nice is she came and gave me a kiss hello), she asked me if I went out, I said no, I was too tired, then went on working, then I asked her how her "Party" went, she retorted "It wasnt a PARTY, but it was nice" and started fiddling around. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So far, so good. You observe her physical and emotional state (tired, irritable, and grumpy), and you politely acknowledge her presence with expressions of interest, but you don't try to push into her space at a time in which such a move appeared likely to be unwelcome.<P>However, your thought that "it would have been nice" for her to have given you a kiss hello is about to get you into trouble. (This is usually the case for "it would have been nice" thoughts. It's better to think in terms of "it would be nice", since this shift in tense removes the implicit disappointment and sense of failure.)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I then stood up, went into the kitchen and said to her, well, am I going to get a kiss hello, and asked her what was wrong with her, why was she so peed off, she got so mad then said "Well, you dont even move or pick your head up from the PC when I walk in what do you expect, then you start questioning me..." I said well, I was in the middle of typing something up, just thought it would be nice if for once you came and gave me a kiss hello, and what about all the past months that I have come home and had to stand there like a fool waiting to get a kiss from you when you were busy in the kitchen or sometimes walked past me a few tmes before you were ready to kiss me hello, she just got mad again and said "Oh, please just dont start with me again, I feel sick from the desserts, I just want to go upstairs and get sick" and walked upstairs to the bathroom and closed the door.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>By saying "Am I going to get a kiss hello" instead of simply asking for a kiss, you are subtly criticizing her. You are implying that she <I>should</I> have given you a kiss but failed to do so. And yet you were in the middle of doing something, which discouraged her from taking such an action, and you did not even get up, apparently expecting her to make the entire effort herself instead of meeting her halfway. Then, instead of expressing concern for her by asking if something is wrong, you <I>assume</I> you know how she is feeling ("peed off") and you not only <I>assert</I> that something is wrong, but you declare that something is wrong <I>with her</I>. Not only are you attempting to define your wife's reality for her, but you are disparaging her in the process.<P>Now, I realize that in all probability this was just a poor choice of language on your part, indicating a lack of skill in communication, but the <I>effect</I> on your wife is not surprising.<P>So now your wife is angry. And sure, her recasting of your expressions of interest as an interrogation was unfair and antagonistic, but instead of making allowances for her mood you take the bait and go defensive. No, actually, you go <I>off</I>ensive and drag past hurts into the discussion with language such as "if for once" and "what about all the past months". And to make matters worse, what you accuse your wife of doing all those past months is exactly what you had just done <I>yourself</I>, and defended yourself for doing!<P>It seems that you have an established ritual in your home (possibly tacit) in which whenever one of you comes home, your arrival is acknowledged with a kiss. However, it is apparent that you are not clear on who is responsible for initiating this action. When your wife came home, you expected <I>her</I> to initiate the kiss, even though you were busy with something. When <I>you</I> came home, though, it seems you <I>still</I> expected <I>your wife</I> to initiate the kiss, and to do so <I>immediately</I>, even though <I>she</I> might be in the middle of something. And instead of being patient or taking the initiative yourself, you chose to stand around feeling aggrieved. If <I>you</I> couldn't be bothered to drop what you were doing and greet your wife with a kiss, why should <I>she</I> be expected to do so?<P>Now, kevan, I'm really not trying to be hard on you here. I'm really not accusing you of anything nasty or petty. This is just an example of what happens when expectations are not examined or clarified. I'm guessing that this problem occurred only because <I>you never thought about this before</I>. We <I>all</I> have unconscious expectations like this, and we all get into trouble because of them. Unfortunately, neither we nor our spouses catch onto what's happening until the trouble has already occurred.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>So should I have been more sensitive there and dropped whatever I was doing and jumped up and kissed her hello and asked her all about her evening immdiately when she walked in?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, you should have been <I>less</I> sensitive there and not let it bother you that <I>she</I> didn't rush to give <I>you</I> a kiss.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Ten minutes later I went upstairs, asked her if she wanted some ENO's, just got grumble at, which I ignored, then asked her again what her evening was like, she then told me how lovely it was, fashion show, someone gave their testimony, they were all served by the husbands etc. I said it sounded like it was very nice. <BR>As it was getting late, I then asked her if it was ok with her if I had a shower, but that she didnt have to leave, she could stay and talk while I was showering, she just said no, and walked out.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK, so tempers have cooled and conversation is polite and respectful. You make a bid to terminate the conversation, leaving an opening for the conversation to continue if your wife so desired. She declined and everything is hunky-dory.<P>I <I>hope</I> you didn't find anything about this to be upsetting.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>At around 11:10, I went upstairs to kiss her goodnight and then said to her well, I dont suppose there is much chance of a cuddle and some intimacy before bedtime, then is there, she just glared at me and said, cant you see I am feeling sick and besides I am very tired and need to get to sleep, so I just said goodnight and wlaked out and closed the door and went downstairs.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Uh, oh. You attempt to protect yourself against rejection by presuming it, but in so doing you once again subtly criticize your wife. You let her know that you <I>expect</I> to be rejected, but that you will nevertheless be disappointed if you are. How's that supposed to make her feel, telling her that you expect her to disappoint you? Kind of humiliating, don't you think? Furthermore, you demonstrate that you haven't really taken seriously her previous complaint of feeling tired and sick. You're going to ask for attention anyhow.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>But of course she never put the light out until after 11:30.... too tired to have a bit of a cuddle, but not too tired to sit and do whatever else.......</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Can you not understand this, kevan? Any kind of intimacy, even "a bit of a cuddle" is going to require some investment of emotional energy from your wife, at least when she is not in a receptive frame of mind. Whereas 20 minutes to gear down a busy mind in preparation for sleep is quite normal, even (or especially) when exhausted. I doubt your wife was making excuses.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>This morning, when I was on my way out to work, she was in the bathroom getting ready to shower, I knocked and walked in to kiss her goodbye, and caught her standing there in the nude, she was quite upset, pushed me away, then gave me a quick kiss and got in the shower.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You crossed her boundaries, however inadvertently. Apparently knocking and entering without permission is not an adequate enough ritual to safeguard her sense of privacy. Perhaps in the future you should ask for permission to enter.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>A few minutes later I went back in and asked her if she had a few bucks for me for lunch as I didnt make anything for myself, she was still in the shower and snapped at me "well, I gave you $20 for gas and so on last night, what have you done, have you spent it all?"<BR>I said no, buy I did but myself dinner and must still put in gas to get to work as she left the tank empty for me. She then said "Oh, then just take some out my purse, but I dont have much anyhow" <BR>This sucks, getting cross-questioned and given the third degree over $20 and a few bucks for lunch - this really pees me off, but yet if I draw some cash myself she insists that I tell her so that she knows where it is all going so that she can manage the budget better................... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If your wife is the one managing the budget, then her questions are quite legitimate. And after all she <I>did</I> let you have the money. I see nothing untoward in her pointing out that she was a bit short of money herself.<P>I can see how constantly asking your wife for money would be frustrating, but if you find your current agreement on money management to be overly confining, then I'd suggest you negotiate something different. Perhaps you could agree to withdraw a certain amount of money yourself each week for meals, and take the responsibility yourself for making sure you don't go over-budget.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>With her gone at least my frustrations will be quite reduced and not having her there and getting frustrated because I am so attracted to her but not allowed to get close to her....This doesnt sound good does it????</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your frustrations are reduced when your wife is gone because your expectations are reduced. It sounds like you need to learn to manage your expectations better.<P>I hope this analysis has helped, kevan. The problems I see here are with your approach are all relatively easily corrected (except for the bit about managing expectations - that's a tough one).<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B>Don't assume my analysis is 100% valid, but this is what I see...<P> Your frustrations are reduced when your wife is gone because your expectations are reduced. It sounds like you need to learn to manage your expectations better.<P>I hope this analysis has helped, kevan. The problems I see here are with your approach are all relatively easily corrected (except for the bit about managing expectations - that's a tough one).</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks for the inout, much apprciated - you have helped on many points here - but believe me, I have tried many of these approaches in the last 6 months, but still get stonewalled, ignored, etc.... Yes I have become oversinsitive myself to my wife's reactions too.<P>Believe me after 22 years a person can tell when their partner is tired and when they are peed off... There is a difference, I do know my wife's moods - maybe I am just not that sensitive when responding to them.<P>Yes, as you say in some cases I have been overreacting - thanks for pointing this out.<P>One thing - the bathroom scenario - for 22 years we have always been very open in the bathroom, she has joined me in the shower, walked in and out while I was in the shower, i have been free to enter WITHOUT knocking when she is bathing/preparing to bathe, she has often sat and cahtted while I was in the shower or bath, she used to before even give me a warm hug while we were both naked in the bathroom etc. etc. Yes, believe it or not it was not a "closed off" area most of the time. I am talking about the bathroom, not the toilet.<P>I may have mentioned this in a previous posting, she now keeps her body-hair down to a "bare" minimum in compariosn to the last 22 years, but now it is completely private - me seeing my wife in any stage of undress is just about forbidden - would this not make any loving husband who has been naturally free and been living in a free environment for 22 years with an attractive woman who was exactly the same, now wonder and get frustrated and upset when doors are closed and locked in his face?<BR>It seems like she is no longer part of the marriage we had before - now its closed shop, because another man has seen her naked body - in a better condition than what I was allowed to see it?????<P>I would love some response from the ladies out there on this one too.<P>NOW, since the affair, I am not allowed near, everything is done behind closed doors, I am invading her privacy, even when she is getting dressed/undressed in the bedroom with the bedroom door open...........<P>Yes, for 22 years, we always kissed each other hello, even while she was having the affair, I used to come home in the wintertime, with my big coat on, before I took it off she used to come and snuggle into my coat and give me a hug and a kiss, no matter what she was busy doing......... now....... and you wonder why I am getting upset and defensive about it????<P>Am I wrong or missing something here?<P>Yes, you are right, I must change some of my responses to be less aggressive and more understanding - but after being faced with 9 moths of aggresiveness and irritableness from my wife it gets to the point where I am sure any person will get their back up...<BR>After having 9 months of being told that you are invading her privacy, being too pushy (when all you are looking for is some warmth, intimacy and assuredness of her love for you), being constantly snapped at no matter what you say, being pulled down in front of friends, I could go on all day..... doesnt a person have the right to be upset and defensive?<P>There was absolutely no reason why she couldnt have walked over to me - 5 feet from where she came in the door, and kissed me on the cheek, if I had to walk past her like that I would never hear the end of it.....<P>She has changed and become a very cold person since her affair and all I am seeking is some intimacy, warmth and affection - yes for reassurance that she is still my wife and she loves me like she says she does...<P>

That was a great analysis, Gnome De Plume....<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevan:<BR><B> Thanks for the inout, much apprciated - you have helped on many points here - but believe me, I have tried many of these approaches in the last 6 months, but still get stonewalled, ignored, etc.... Yes I have become oversinsitive myself to my wife's reactions too.<P>Believe me after 22 years a person can tell when their partner is tired and when they are peed off... There is a difference, I do know my wife's moods - maybe I am just not that sensitive when responding to them.<P>Yes, as you say in some cases I have been overreacting - thanks for pointing this out. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Kevan,<P>Maybe it's not so much WHAT you're doing/saying....it seems to me to be the WAY you are doing/saying it. Like GDP said....you are inherently assuming things about your wife and including them in your language to her....that would pi$$ me off too.....it would always put me on the defensive....having to defend your "assumptions" that I was pissed off, tired, etc.<P>Yes, you might KNOW what mood I was in. But including that information in your language to me is what I'm talking about. The thing is, it's hard to tell when to include and when NOT to include. Example:<P>A) Your wife walks in with stuff in her hands. You don't assume you know what it is and ask her. It pi$$es her off.<P>B) It appears to you that your wife is upset, so you ask "why are you so upset?" (assuming she's upset) It pi$$es her off.<P>In example A....you are irritating her by asking an unimportant question....what DOES it matter what's in her hands?<P>In example B....you are assuming that she's upset, instead of asking her is something is bothering her, does she want to talk. <P>I don't know if you see the difference, because it's very subtle. But it's there.<P>I know, because my H did the same thing to me. I always felt like I was defending myself (even during the good times)....it got sooooo irritating. I always felt like he thought he knew me BETTER than I knew myself! And maybe he did....in some areas. But I still wanted him to give me the benefit of the doubt that I knew myself and my thoughts, feelings, etc. I wanted him to respect that fact that I felt I knew best for me.<P>I know it's hard to fight right now...but it appears from me that you still have some sort of chance to keep this marriage going. I didn't have a chance to read all the details of this conversation, but you guys gotta get into counseling....individually and as a couple. You're at a stalemate and somethings gotta break it.<P>Hang in there....It's pretty crappy when the BS has to do so much of the work. But whether she had an affair or not, it sounds like BOTH of you need to work at the marriage. Don't minimize your work by focusing on her work. <P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited June 07, 2001).]

Hello Kevan, how are you doing? You might have read my thread, i think it was you who posted that you feel like my W at the moment. I don't know why I'm posting this, being in a mess myself I am probably not the best person you'd like to hear from. <P>Although the situation is different, I am on ur W's side of the fence. Unlike you my W hardly ever brings up the subject of A or OW. If she did insists I would share with her some information, just enough to give her an idea of how I am feeling. The thing is the truth will hurt her and its true what someone said in here - they will tell you what they want you to know either to protect you or themselves.<P>I know you can't just forget and erase everything that has happened. I honestly can't but my W seems to think it's possible, I am not sure if she is in denial. She doesn't suffocate me too much hence I don't get irratated much or go into arguments with her. Instead I am always on auto pilot I try to just let it pass me. Sometimes I am angry at her, I don't show it though, I try to limit my sarcasm. I am resentful of the fact that I am not with OW. Of course once again our circumstances are different so she may not feel the same way. <P>Anyway as for any psychical contact, it's been very hard on me. I can't even hold my W's hand when we are walking. She would grab my hand and I would just slowly slide it away and put it my pocket. When I cry and she wants to hold me to comfort me I feel very uncomfortable. She asked me to give her a hug, and I had to practically force myself. Don't even mention sexual contact, she has indicated to me a few times how much she wanted me, but I can't. That's the last thing I want to do. And I am a MAN and my sexual & intimacy needs was one of the things that wasn't met for years which became one of the reasons for the demise of my M.<P>I am not to clear here - does she ever talk of the affair? Is she still seeing the OM? How does she feel about you? <P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mrs.O:<BR><B>That was a great analysis, Gnome De Plume....<P> Kevan,<P>Hang in there....It's pretty crappy when the BS has to do so much of the work. But whether she had an affair or not, it sounds like BOTH of you need to work at the marriage. Don't minimize your work by focusing on her work. <P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited June 07, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you too Mrs. O - often people like me need to be told things more than once before it sinks in - and very specifically too.<P>Just a few pointers"<P>The p**d off story - I know this may sound defensive anf two wrongs dont make a right - but after living for overa year with my wife who has become incredibly moody, gets mad for nothing at all ( I am then not even allowed to ask her whats troubling her), but if I for some reason show my hurt, get upset over something - she attacks me straight away with "What are you p**ed off about now" or "So now you are p**d off with me again?", believe me it is not something that I have started, this is something that she has given me a hard time about for many many years, if she is uoset or mad - I have to just tread carefully and step around her, If I am upset or get mad, she immediately takes offense, gets her back up, just assumes its her, and gets mad with me...<BR>Sorry this has actually got to the point where I also need to stand upand say, hey, I got feelings too, I also get hurt, I also get upset, and not always necessarily with you - but give me a break too, I am not the perfect person...<P>The counselling issue - read this whole posting, maybe it will give you more insight - yes I have approached many things from the wrong angle - <P>It took me 7 months after the affair was brought out into the open by my son discovering them kissing in the park after work, before I started looking for help, because I was respecting my wife's "privacy" concerning the affair, but in the meantime I was losing my mind and not knowing what was going thru her mind.<BR>I had pains in my chest, went to the doctor, they checked me out thoroughly, found nothing wrong physically and asked me what was troubling me - I told them - the first thing they said was that she was being very unfair to me and had to give it up with OM immediately - I went home and told her this - she lost it, said I was being "Possessive" and "Controlling" and that he was still just a friend.<P>Only then did I find Marriagebuilders, found a counsellor, started on anti-deps - she s not interested at all in MB, refuses to even look at the notes I have printed off MB, is very upset because I went to a counsellor (doesnt see how a outsider can fix anything) and just wants me to get over it and forget it all...<BR>I want to fix what I have done wrong, I buyher flowers regularly, send her love-cards often, take her out over the weekends to the pub, restaurants etc. Stay at home and do the ironing and washing over weekends while she spends most of the day at the shops and malls. I wake her up with a cup of coffee every day. I tell her more than once every day that I love and appreciate her, I compliment her regularly on how lovely and attractive she looks, I do not complain when she buys herself new clothes (she averages about 2 clothing articles per week) I turn the bedclothes down for her every night before bedtime and make sure she has something light to drink at bedtime, so she can take her birth-control pills (I have had a vasectomy by the way, but she is on the pill for menstrual regulation problems - guess it makes it handy too when you have had or are having sex with another person). I sleep downstairs on the sofa as my snoring keeps her awake and she is a very light sleeper (doing this for 9 months now).<P>She goes and visits her friends during the week or over weekends, but tehn gets upset if I am a bit upset when she comes home late, or if I phone her while she is out, or after work while she is out and about between 4:30 pm and 6:00 pm.<P>I have been out with my friedns occasionally on a Friday night, and when I come home after 10:00 pm she is mad and fed-up because I dont tell her where I am, where I have been and when I am getting home.........<P>Dont I just sound like the perfect husband - next joke....<P>My son is failing at school - has lost interest, has experimented with MArijuana - I have been basically told it is my fault because I dont discipline him enough.<BR>My son threatened to move out (in Grade 11, 16 years old) if we dont stop fighting - says he cannot concentrate on his schoolwork, told her if she cannot give it up completely with OM he is going to leave - she got so mad she ended up slapping him through the face and around the head.<BR>But she has still not come back and told him that she has given it up with OM, he is still too scared to ask her again as he doesnt want another fight and get beaten up again (not that he cannot defend himself - he is a toughie). I have had to ask her if she has definitely told OM its completely over - at first she said she will just try and avoid him and his phonecalls, then says she has sorted it out, but then 3 weeks ago I find she had been talking to him....<BR>She says she wants out cannot take this anymore - needs a break from all of us - but never gets to the point where she goes, just stays at home and is frustrated and tired and grumpy (not all the time though) and gets upset at the smallest thing.<BR>She wants to go back to South Africa and see her sick mother, but keeps on putting it off, has threatened that she will go and not come back........<P>Its all there read my whole posting....<P>She WILL NOT discuss the affair, refuses completely to go for counselling, says she is also depressed, but refuses to go to the doctor about it, says no-one can help her with the way she feels......<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by painforever:<BR><B>Hello Kevan, how are you doing? You might have read my thread, i think it was you who posted that you feel like my W at the moment. I don't know why I'm posting this, being in a mess myself I am probably not the best person you'd like to hear from. <P>....<P>I am not to clear here - does she ever talk of the affair? Is she still seeing the OM? How does she feel about you? <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Hey, I am open to any views as longas they are open and honest - it does help me too to try and understand from the other persons' perspective, no matter how puzzling it may be at times:<P>As I have said above, she NEVER mentions the affair, I do not know if she is still in contact with OM, if I mention it she goes off the handle, but will not tell me the real truth, has NEVER openly come to me and said, ok thats it, I have told him it is all over, I have ALWAYS had to appraoch her about it - then have to expect resistance and anger from her - she just wants me to forget about it totally, put it out of my mind, ignore that she may still be talking to him, ignore the fact that her cellphone billl goes to her work address, not to home (she re-directed it to OM address September last year [yes, after the affair was discovered], I found out about it the day before we were going on holiday to Mexico in October last year, and forced her to change it back to our address, now 4 months ago, she changed it to her work address, and is mad because I found out about it and still insist that it is only fair that she be open and honest about it and let me see her bill and call details.... and is totally indignant and does not understand why I got mad and upset when OM gave her a 18karat gold bracelet for Christmas - which she was wearing on Christmas day and I discovered while she was opening the Christmas present from me... even though EVERYONE, counsellors, friends, family, that I have told have said that she shouldnt have even accepted it.....<P>Thats enough about my hurt - you are all at least making me more and more aware of accepting that she is hurting too and needs to be left alone..<P>Just find it so very very difficult to stay away from someone I love so dearly want to hold and love and protect and be with for the rest of my life.....<P>Keep posting "painforever" we can all learn something from each other - your life and marriage is not over either, if you really want to love your wife again with all your heart you can do it, many people have overcome larger obstacles than we have, you have found the right place for advice and assistance...<P>Believe it or not, my heart goes out to you too, very much....<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevan:<BR><B>I do know my wife's moods - maybe I am just not that sensitive when responding to them.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm not convinced that you lack sensitivity as much as you lack skills. As Mrs.O said, it's the <I>way</I> you say things.<P>Unfortunately, it sounds as though you may be hampered in the development of your communication skills by your wife's tendency to take affront at <I>anything</I>. Without accurate feedback, the skills are much more difficult to develop. Nevertheless, it's worth working on.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>One thing - the bathroom scenario - for 22 years we have always been very open in the bathroom, she has joined me in the shower, walked in and out while I was in the shower, i have been free to enter WITHOUT knocking when she is bathing/preparing to bathe, she has often sat and cahtted while I was in the shower or bath, she used to before even give me a warm hug while we were both naked in the bathroom etc. etc. Yes, believe it or not it was not a "closed off" area most of the time...<P>NOW, since the affair, I am not allowed near, everything is done behind closed doors, I am invading her privacy, even when she is getting dressed/undressed in the bedroom with the bedroom door open...........</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It doesn't really matter what the rules were for the last 22 years, though, does it? Whether you like it or not, it seems that your wife has changed the rules. You can continue to behave as though the old rules still apply, but if you do you will only cause problems.<P>No, it's not fair, but that's the way it is.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>...now it is completely private - me seeing my wife in any stage of undress is just about forbidden - would this not make any loving husband who has been naturally free and been living in a free environment for 22 years with an attractive woman who was exactly the same, now wonder and get frustrated and upset when doors are closed and locked in his face?<BR>It seems like she is no longer part of the marriage we had before - now its closed shop, because another man has seen her naked body - in a better condition than what I was allowed to see it?????</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The frustration is natural, of course. But I doubt very much that your wife's attitudes and behaviors have much to do with what "another man" has seen or done, or with any particular "attributes" he might have. This is your own sense of inadequacy coming out again.<P>I really don't think jealousy is helpful. Your wife's continued involvement with him is interfering with your relationship and her own happiness, but comparing yourself with him in any way is pointless. This is not about you and him. At least in my opinion.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Yes, for 22 years, we always kissed each other hello, even while she was having the affair, I used to come home in the wintertime, with my big coat on, before I took it off she used to come and snuggle into my coat and give me a hug and a kiss, no matter what she was busy doing......... now....... and you wonder why I am getting upset and defensive about it????<P>Am I wrong or missing something here?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So your wife used to be affectionate and extraordinarily attentive. That doesn't give you a <I>right</I> to such attention.<P>It's not that I wonder <I>why</I> you are upset or defensive about this. I just think it is <I>inappropriate</I> for you to be offended by it. A sense of <I>loss</I> is appropriate, but a sense that you have been denied a prerogative is not.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>After having 9 months of being told that you are invading her privacy, being too pushy (when all you are looking for is some warmth, intimacy and assuredness of her love for you), being constantly snapped at no matter what you say, being pulled down in front of friends, I could go on all day..... doesnt a person have the right to be upset and defensive?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You have the <I>right</I> to be angry about how you have been treated. You have every <I>reason</I> to be angry. I'm not going to criticize you for being angry.<P>But I <I>will</I> point out that anger isn't going to make you feel any better about yourself, and unless it's very carefully expressed, it's not going to do anything good for your relationship.<P>Anger is a response to hurt and fear. Find what inside you is being threatened. Face it. I'll bet you'll find that your survival is not at stake. And if you can find your validation within yourself, rather than what someone else (e.g. your wife) thinks of you, you won't even find that your self-respect is at stake. You won't have a <I>need</I> for anger.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>There was absolutely no reason why she couldnt have walked over to me - 5 feet from where she came in the door, and kissed me on the cheek, if I had to walk past her like that I would never hear the end of it.....</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK, there was no reason why she <I>couldn't</I> walk over to you. But what reason did she have to <I>do</I> it? And what reason did you have to <I>expect</I> it?<P>The fact that your wife may have had unreasonable expectations if your roles were reversed doesn't constitute a valid reason for <I>you</I> to maintain unreasonable expectations.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>She has changed and become a very cold person since her affair and all I am seeking is some intimacy, warmth and affection - yes for reassurance that she is still my wife and she loves me like she says she does...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think I have a pretty good idea how you feel, kevan. I've been there (well, except for the affair part). But you can't force it. Your wife is suffering a great deal of internal conflict, and this makes it very difficult for her to reach out or open up.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited June 08, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B> I think I have a pretty good idea how you feel, kevan. I've been there (well, except for the affair part). But you can't force it. Your wife is suffering a great deal of internal conflict, and this makes it very difficult for her to reach out or open up.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited June 08, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks, yes I need lots of specifics, like you have given me, it takes a lot before it sinks in sometimes, it is not easy to hide one's hurt and feelings, it is not easy to just stand by and be snapped at and not react....i know it is wrong, but believe me I have tried the subtle approach, the submissive approach, the diplomatic approach, but..... same response......<P>But I do understand and will put into practice what you have said....<P><BR>Anyhow, besides this, last night I asked her again, why is everything now shut away from me, we were so open before, now everything is behind closed doors, why is she unapproachable - she got mad as usual, says I start this at bedtime every time, I just dont see her point that she says she just needs some space and time on her own, even if its in the bathroom without me barging in - I said I am at my wits end - I am trying everything to get back together and be close again and am getting confused - she said she has had enough, she stormed downstairs and grabbed a handful of sleeping pills, then marched into the bathroom and said "Lovely, now I have to go to work again in the morning with a puffy face from crying, thank you very much"<BR>She came out, I said I am sorry but what else must I do to try and get some love from her, thats all I am looking for, she got mad again and said do you want me to take all these sleeping pills, maybe then you will be happy - I have just had enough - I just want a break, from all of you, everyone, everything. I said I was sorry for getting her upset, I took the sleeping pills, left her a half-one and kissed her goodnight.<P><BR>I will have to start all over again, but letshope there is still a chance after WHAT I DID LAST NIGHT:<P>I was checking her cellphone account balance on the Internet and they have just changed it all, you have to set up an account, within username and password etc.<P>So I set one up, and of course it refuses unless you give the current mailing address, which it checks against their records.<P>I set it up, it then supplied a "temporary" password.<P>When I logged in it will not give any details except that which I know already, AND they will now send out a NEW password within 10 days to the postal address on her account - which is her work account.<P>YOU KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS WHEN SHE FINDS OUT.....<P><BR>I am just going to have to tell her straight out what I have done when I get home tonight and be honest with her and face the consequences fo being such a stupid fool.....<P><BR>I guess if she really wants to walk out, then she better go.....<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevan:<BR><B>believe me I have tried the subtle approach, the submissive approach, the diplomatic approach, but..... same response......</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, I've been <I>there</I> too. I tried everything, absolutely <I>everything</I> I could think of (and I've got a pretty good imagination). Nothing got through.<P>I finally realized that this was out of my control. My wife's distress wasn't <I>about</I> me, and if she was determined to block me out, nothing I did was going to "fix" things.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Anyhow, besides this, last night I asked her again, why is everything now shut away from me, we were so open before, now everything is behind closed doors, why is she unapproachable - she got mad as usual, says I start this at bedtime every time</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your question was legitimate, although if your wife is not exaggerating about the frequency of your relationship talks, perhaps you should space them out a bit more.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I just dont see her point that she says she just needs some space and time on her own, even if its in the bathroom without me barging in</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>First, you don't <I>need</I> to see her point. You only need to accept that that's how she <I>feels</I>, whether you understand it or not. If your wife was more secure in herself, perhaps she wouldn't "need" to have you validate her feelings, but that's not where she's at right now.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I said I am at my wits end - I am trying everything to get back together and be close again and am getting confused</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Most likely, she's taking this as another criticism. If <I>you've</I> tried everything, then logically <I>she</I> must be at fault.<P>That said, however, over-analysis of her reactions may not really be all that helpful. As I said before, she may be determined to take offence at <I>anything</I> you say.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>she said she has had enough, she stormed downstairs and grabbed a handful of sleeping pills, then marched into the bathroom and said "Lovely, now I have to go to work again in the morning with a puffy face from crying, thank you very much"</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now <I>there's</I> a familiar story. While my wife was working on her master's degree, I knew exactly how any argument would play out. I tried desperately to avoid getting her upset, but every once in a while I inadvertently triggered something, and despite my best efforts to pacify her, she inevitably concluded the "argument" by accusing me of deliberately trying to sabotage her master's program.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>She came out, I said I am sorry but what else must I do to try and get some love from her, thats all I am looking for...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're still claiming control here, kevan. You're telling your wife that to get love from her <I>you</I> are the one who must do something.<P>Also, you're being needy, and your wife is likely to see that as somewhat pathetic. That's not the way to regain her respect.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>When I logged in it will not give any details except that which I know already, AND they will now send out a NEW password within 10 days to the postal address on her account - which is her work account.<P>YOU KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS WHEN SHE FINDS OUT.....<P>I am just going to have to tell her straight out what I have done when I get home tonight and be honest with her and face the consequences fo being such a stupid fool.....</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Telling her what you did is the right approach, I think. But <I>this</I> is something for which I think you should offer no apology. I don't know if others will agree with me on this, but in my opinion you're not a "stupid fool" unless you allow your wife to <I>play</I> you like a fool, and in my opinion that's what your wife is doing by being secretive about her cell phone usage. You're <I>enabling</I> her behavior if you turn a blind eye to her betrayal of you.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B> I think I have a pretty good idea how you feel, kevan. I've been there (well, except for the affair part). But you can't force it. Your wife is suffering a great deal of internal conflict, and this makes it very difficult for her to reach out or open up.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited June 08, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yep, thanks again - you will get thru to me eventually.<P>Wish me luck this weekend......<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevan:<BR><B> Yep, thanks again - you will get thru to me eventually.<P>Wish me luck this weekend......<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, thats it, she got so mad when I told her about the fone account, she says I am just possesive - I am her possession thats all - she says I have finally made up her mind for her, she has packed a bag and gone...........<P>What do I do now??

My suggestion?<P>1. Pray.<P>2. Wait.<P>Contrary to your wife's assertion, <I>you</I> didn't make up her mind for her. She will do what she chooses to do, and there's not a whole hell of a lot you can do about it (notably because you are already <I>in</I> hell and thus lack leverage).<P>Anybody who ever said life was fair, or easy, didn't know what he was talking about. Sometimes it <I>hurts</I>.<P>I wish I could tell you that it <I>stops</I> hurting. But that's a lesson I haven't learned myself. Frankly, I'm doubtful.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B>My suggestion?<P>1. Pray.<P>2. Wait.<P>Contrary to your wife's assertion, <I>you</I> didn't make up her mind for her. She will do what she chooses to do, and there's not a whole hell of a lot you can do about it (notably because you are already <I>in</I> hell and thus lack leverage).<P>Anybody who ever said life was fair, or easy, didn't know what he was talking about. Sometimes it <I>hurts</I>.<P>I wish I could tell you that it <I>stops</I> hurting. But that's a lesson I haven't learned myself. Frankly, I'm doubtful.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks, not much consolation, but thanks anyhow - I guess I did drive her over the edge - <P>Shows what honesty and the want for honesty does - all you get is a kick in the face...<BR>

I have been reading your info for awhile...don't know why you did not do this before....She is playing you like a fiddle...you seem to be the one appologizing for her affair. she does not seem sorry at all...of coarse you want to know who she is calling....her life should be an open book....make damn sure she dumps this jerk or tell her to get the the hell out...Take charge don't be a [censored]...I don't care what the hell she looks like be a man damnit don't let her bang some guy then tell you how to deal with it....she screwed up she should bend over backward for your forgiveness not act like a royal b.i.t.c.h because she got caught.I would get a pi on the OM and sue the hell out of him for alienation of affection...I hate guys like that.