thinker-<p>I've been following your thoughts (and those of s-n-l) for a little while now. It is scary but the thoughts of your H seem to mirror what my W is saying here 7 months after d-day. I can't believe after 18 years that I have finally come to realize that she had given up on improving our marriage (at least how she saw it) years ago. I didn't really suspect the problems were this deep.<p>You mentioned you get angry thinking about OW. For me, the flashbacks that bother me the most are not those of the OM with my W but rather of the time, energy and commitment my W made to OM. Is this maybe a more accurate description of how you are feeling and what you are angry with? I feel that we would be in a much different place if my W had put half the energy into our relationship that she did with OM in trying to meet him on the side, in the way she tried to keep it all secret, in the way that she gave him time with our kids. This makes me more sad and angry than anything else. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Here's hoping we can find the patience to ride this roller coaster a little longer while we work on ourselves and let our spouses figure things out.
SG

Nina too - H and I did have sex after the affair. I found out in Feb. 2001 about the affair, but did not find out until June or July of 2001 that it was physical affair as well. We went to Retrouville weekend (marriage seminar) in April. H did have sex with me, and I thought well he didn't have sex. It would of been nice to know that he did have sex with her to protect myself. H states he did not have intercourse, but they did everything else. He feels he has not been contaminated by her. So yes he was dishonest with me and should of been truthful. I probably would of refused sex, until he had an AIDS test. You never know what is swimming in the OW. With this being her 2nd physical affair while being married to the same H. <p>Thank you for your e-mail. Will respond today, tomorrow will be gone, working on the election, full day. <p>H met me, while I was active with the Navigators. It is a christian based bible study group for women. Yes, H believes in God and Jesus. But what hurts is the belief that what he did was not for sex, but for connection. He says it was biology. I didn't have classes like that in college. Yes, we married in a catholic church, and are practicing Lutheran now. H enjoyed teaching the middle age junior high kids at church. He found these kids to be quite interesting. I don't know exactly what his religious beliefs are for sure. I find it hard to think of himself as a christian, and to commit adultery, and she committed adultery 2 times during her marriage. How can one consider themselves a christian with adultery?<p>SprayerGuy - What hurts is that H sees no guilt or remorse about the affair. It is like it should happen in all marriages and accept it and move on. He does feel bad about the hurt he caused me and the family. As far as OW family knowing anything, we don't know. Cause OW was adamant about not telling anyone about this affair. That is where I am hurt too. She called and threatened me with suicide if we were to tell her Husband. This is a sane person talking, and loving christian values? She didn't care about my feelings or the pressure she was putting on me? Probably cause she will be labeled with a big RED 2 on her forhead for 2 physical affairs for sure and possibly 3. I had an investigator, that said there might be 3, but 2 for sure. So the anger or hurt, is how can one do this and be married? How can people hurt someone else so distastefully? What about Gods point of view, what about christianity, what about seeing the higher ground (heaven), what about vows, what about morals, and what about family? Seems both H and OW were quite selfish and only thought of themselves, and to heck with anything else. Neglect and rejection are so strong here, I have been told it takes time! I would love to have trust, and get rid of the rejection feeling. I have dreams almost every night of doing something awful to the OW. I hate these dreams of doing awful things to her, and sometimes wonder if I am going INSANE!!! Counseling with Jennifer said it is part of things not being resolved, and we are not exactly on the path. So I am trying to solve issues within myself by talking to GOD on my walks, and trying to throw these stupid dreams away in my dreams. <p>Went to physical therapy and found it to be a time for me. Help heal the knee after surgery, and found that the PT technicians were very kind and helpful. Doing PT for 6-8 weeks. My technician (Mike) was very kind and sorry for the pain he caused me. Needed to evaluate today,and take measurements of flexing and etc. Mike said knee will be sore today, take it easy. I am focusing the next 6-8 weeks to get my knee better and hopefully to beable to walk my 3-6 miles a day after PT. Thanks for everyones help.

OK, I will stick my neck out here, seeing as I have alot of experience with manipulators. . . and with self deception and FOO issues, etc. hey, i've done it all, really. . . . [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>thinker,<p>i would go get the sharkiest lawyer I could, and take him for everything he is worth. . . <p>Why? because he is unwilling to make a decision, the decision is to be a husband or not. . . . the only marriages that have a high probability of recovery after an affair is one where the WS takes full responsibility for his/her actions, does not need to justify it, and goes to therapy to understand why it happened, so as to understand the past to prevent a future recurrance.<p>Second, because you love him, and wish to set him free with just the shirt on his back. The favorable financial settlement will constitute restitution for all the emotional abuse he has heaped on you for not liking himself, and not being able to stand up for what he wants, but is trying to get you to do his dirty work.<p>Third, he is not a true religious person, as he does not really follow the ideals with his actions. I personally abstain from religion because of people like that, Osama bin Ladin is a perfect example, who use religion to condone mean actions or to perpetuate the action because of the perceived forgiveness with confession.<p>Fourth, he obviously was not taught correctly by his FOO how to treat family members, and currently, he is too old to learn and improve. His FOO is haunting him, and without a desire to lay these ghosts to rest, there never will be a good person.<p>Fifth, life is OK after divorce, divorce is not your first choice, but a choice, and you may actually regain some happiness, etc. hey, i NEVER thought that the person i married would do a complete 180 after telling me constantly in the beginning that she did not like her FOO values, but she adopted them anyway. I have finally settled on my own personal diagnosis after tremendous amount of research that my X is partly BPD and partly Narcissistic. Now, she will never be good marriage material without lots of therapy, and good luck to her, but i am not worthy of trying to fix someone, nor willing to put up with someone who does not want to fix themselves to be the best they can be.<p>My FOO values are to improve and be the best you can be, and to overcome adversity to be better. My X fears improvement, wants to stay in the status quo, likes excuses and likes to get stuff through woe is me actions. pathetic is my response.<p>sorry, life is too short to stay married to someone who doesn't like life, or himself or his lot in life, when everyone has the power to make their life happy with some internal and external reprogramming.<p>WIFTTy

Thinker,
Before I begin this post, let me first say that I do sympathize greatly with your situation. I have read and followed both yours and SNL's posts and I am sorry you are both so troubled by your circumstances. Your husband has made some bad decisions and is also apparantly in alot of pain over his choices and his future.<p>However, something you said just jumped off the page at me - about how can he be a Christian and be commit adultery? And to say that the OW has had 2 PAs (you mention this in almost every post) so she must not a Christian either. WHOA!<p>What about that old "let he who is without sin cast the first stone..." and "remove the log from your own eye before you attempt to get the speck out of your brothers....." and so on and so on. A sin is a sin and we are all sinners. Everyday. Over and over again. Jesus was the last one to walk this earth who was without sin. <p>I am not justifying what SNL and/or the OW did. You are right to claim that it was immoral, sinful and against God and his laws (not to mention our laws). But, it certainly does not mean he is not a Christian. If our own goodness is what gets us to heaven there aren't going to be very many people up there. <p>God redeems our sin. He takes it and washes us clean. He does it over and over. He will keep doing it. That is what he promises. He loves us that much. We cannot do anything that God cannot redeem. <p>The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith.<p>I think you should go back to church. When people say "where is your H?" Smile and say, I guess he is at home. Or, I am not sure. Or, why don't you call him and ask. Or, we are having some trouble right now, but I needed to be here. Or any one of a dozen truths about where he is.
When the pastor says, "how are you?" Say, not worth a damn, or hanging in there, or day to day, but I need you to pray for me... or whatever you feel like saying. If you aren't at a church that will support you through this **** storm then maybe you do need to look for another. Because that is what the church is for. To hold us and provide strength and love. A church that would shun someone in your situation should be called something other than a church.<p>Again, just my .02
M

Do you have any friends at the church where you formerly attended? If so, go there. You have people there with whom you have a past.<p>I am still attending the church where x and I worshipped. It wasn't always easy to stay. But these people knew me. They cared for me already. I had no emotional energy to use on building new relationships.<p>Will I always stay there? Who knows. But some of those people have stuck with me and prayed for me when the rest of the world marched right on by. They knew what I was like before and they are amazed at the way I've perservered.

thinker,<p>Since your husband reads this thread and has responded to me when I asked you a question, I hope you don't mind me posting to him again.<p>If you mind, let me know and I'll put it on a separate thread.<p>ANNA<p>
sad_n_lonley,<p>I posted to you recently on a separate thread. You didn't respond. I took it as you read it but had no comment. If you don't respond to this one, I'll take it the same way.<p>I am sure you could careless if I or anyone here has respect for you or not but I want you to know the reasons why I have absolutely no respect for you.<p>Incredibly as I write this, I may sound angry but I'm not angry as much as I'm just sickened by your not taking blame for your own actions. My hopes in this post is to knock some sense into you with my words of truth.<p>On another post you said something like this, "My lover and I kept our affair from my wife and her husband because we knew they would control us and ruin it all for us." <p>That is just the sickest way of looking at an affair I can imagine. Your reasons were selfish and were only to try and justify your lust from a woman outside your marriage. Your actions, your reasons, your blame and your post make me want to throw up.<p>You don't even understand how she is feeling about your betrayal. Betrayal like this is almost like raping your wife. You raped her of making decisions to be with a cheater. You weren't just making choices for you but you bullied her into choices with your lies. You took away her right to choose. She did not have a right to choose to kick a husband out who had physical contact with someone else. Most importantly she did not have the information she need to choose to sleep with you or not afterward. She was raped of the right to insure her safety and make sure you didn't get aids or another disease from Ms. Pure and Innocent. You did not give her the choice to say whether she wanted to risk getting sexually transmitted diseases. You weren't just having "physical contact" with this one person, in affect you were being sexually active with everyone she slept with and all their past sexual partners and all the sexual partners past sexual partnes, by the time you add up every person's germs involved you could have had sexual contact with 100's of other people's germs. Then you get even more selfish and greedy by sleeping with your wife without giving her all the information she needs. She deserved and had a right to know what you did. She deserved a say and a choice. This was such a betrayal. You kept this a secret because you didn't want anyone waking you up from your lusty little dream. <p>I am not saying there can not be forgiveness in all this. I just see no remorse at all for your actions. Instead I see you trying so hard to justify your bad choices by rewriting the history of your marriage, by making your wife out to be this munipulative witch that she is by far NOT. You blaming her for so much. <p>I read an article on blame once. It said "People blame others because the load of guilt is too heavy to bear." I think this is you, you come on here searching for validation for the things you did wrong. You try to blame your wife because if you look at the real truth it would be a load of guilt you could not bear. Well, you need to know, you will not be free from the pain and suffering inside you until you face your actions, take blame and confess to everything you did wrong.<p>You may think you are so great for sticking in a marriage when you want out. Sacrificing your happiness. You are putting yourself, your wife and your family through misery because of all this. It's time you be the husband God wants you to be. Sure you are going to counseling but you are not doing anything the counselors says. You are not trying. You are just holding on as long as you can. Before she can forgive you, you need to have full remorse. You need to stop blaming and take responsibility for your actions. You need to see how unfair this was to not give her a choice in whether you wanted a lying, cheating husband. SNL, you need to put your wife first and love her the way a husband is suppose to love his wife.<p>You say you believe in God and Jesus. You say you are responsible for your wife's needs for the rest of your life. Well what she needs is a faithful, loving husband. You think you can support her and give her money, buying yourself a guilt free conscience well you can't.<p>The bible says you are to love your wife as you love your own body. Do you? The bible says you are to love your wife as Christ loves the Church. Do you? The man is suppose to be the spiritual leader in the household. What are you teaching your family as a spiritual leader? <p>Here's a post you did this morning on another MBers thread. It makes you sound like the biggest hypocrite alive. How can you come on MB condemning those who lust and have affairs when you did just that and you aren't taking full responsibility for your own actions. In my opinion you might as well be looking in the mirror and talking to yourself. The reason you have such great insight into this person is because you are so much like the person you are describing.<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=31&t=004937<p>Maybe your wife is right and you used to be a decent person, but you aren't anymore. When I read your posts and you try to figure out who you are by all the psychology bull crap you lay out, I can only think what a waste. Put that time into your marriage. I could careless about the psychology of why you make bad choices. I only know what you are doing is mean, cruel and wrong. You come on here and verbally abuse your wife, the person you are suppose to respect and love as you love your own body. You tell people a skewed view of how she's munipulative and so forth, I see munipulation in almost ever post you present on MB. I can't stand the way you continually treat her. All I want now is for you to wake up and be the husband God wants you to be. <p>Apologize to your wife, SNL, tell her sincerely what you did was wrong and you will not do it again. Be a real man and take responsibility! Get your respect back!<p>ANNA<p>P.S.<p>I have a feeling Ms. Pure and Innocent is on her third or fourth affair right now. I think she also came up with excuses why she didn't want you anymore. I think she tired of you. She wanted something different. You weren't fulfilling her sexually anymore than her husband was. She's now sucking someone else's husband into her poor, misunderstood life. Ruining another marriage as I type. What makes your Ms. Pure and Innocent be any different than the person you described in your post linked above? What makes you any different? That link describes you both.<p>[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by thinker:
<strong>
I find it hard to think of himself as a christian, and to commit adultery, and she committed adultery 2 times during her marriage. How can one consider themselves a christian with adultery?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry, but you just hit a cord with me here...

Do you put GOD first In all aspects of your life Thinker?? Do You put what HE wants before what you want??? If Not, then that is Idolatry..
Thou shalt not have any other God's before me..<p>Have you ever Stolen anything?? Even a pen from work?? Stealing--Thou shalt not steal<p>Have you ever looked at Playgirl?? Have you ever lusted over an actor about how good looking he is?? Those thoughts are ALSO adultry!!! <p>They are all SINS!!! No Sin is worse than any other in God's eyes..SIN is SIN!!!! They are all
equal, and do not carry any degrees or which is
worse than any other..<p>When we stand before God and say-- it was just a little white lie..so I wouldn't hurt them..it's still a lie is not??? And God says thou shalt not lie..so how is a lie any less than adultry??
They are part of the same commandments are they
not?? So because someone lies, does that make them
Not a Christian?? <p>I understand that you are hurting..very much..
but, for you to say How can one commit adultry and be a Christian..is way outta line..were ALL Sinners..ALL OF US!!! None of us our perfect, and can fall into any type of sin..<p>As born again Christians we have 2 natures..the old and the new..and as we allow the new nature to grow by studying the Bible and asking God to search our hearts..and cleanse us..we become more
Christ Like...but, if all we do is accept Christ
as our Savior, and don't have any growth..then
our old nature still has predominate control..and that will be strongest in us..but, even with that
we still have the old sin nature..and we will continue to sin..as a Christian, you will be convicted of sin, and should go before God and seek His forgiveness..and He forgives..but that doesn't mean we will never sin again...<p>And just because one says they believe in God
doesn't make them a Christian..even satan believes in God..He knows God exists, but He doesn't put his faith in God..many will do things in the name
of God, and go to church but will not go to heaven..because they never put their faith in
God. They don't have a personal relationship with
Him..<p>So maybe your husband doesn't have that relationship..but please do not lump all
"Christians" into that catagory...

TR,
My post got lost on page 3 of this thread - thanks for repeating my sentiments exactly!
M

Dear Thinker and SNL,<p>I am an old timer, in the process of a divorce after a 20 year marriage, so take this as you will...I am not a marriage survior, but a survivor none the less.<p>I read posts here often, I used to write all the time, but since filing divorce, feel like I am not really entitled to give advice. I am in a new relationship though, and part of the reason I come here is to learn how to do this the right way this time.<p>Like most people here I find SNL's posts to be a whole lotta "fogeese" as one poster said. He seems to be aware of this though, something I give credit to him for...most foggy minded folks will deny that they may not be thinking straight...but to his credit and very open mind he does see it....could this be a bit of light getting in?<p>Ok Thinker...you are the one I want to talk to here...I want to ask you a question. What about Thinker has changed since discovery of this affair? How have you changed you? How have you become a woman that this man wants to spend the rest of your life with?<p>We know why people have affairs, not because the OP is so great, so much better than us, not because they lack morals or have lost their faith in God...they love the way they feel when they are with this person. That's all. This other woman made him her world...there were no sick parents, judgemental church friends, businesses to run. It's not about the sex and how she must just be so great in bed because she has had two affairs. She just gave him attention and made him feel good.<p>I hope I'm not being rude. I understand how crappy all of this feels, but I can look back now with a little different perspective. It feels good to vent here and talk about hitting him upside the head...feels good to have found some other people to commiserate with, but folks, SNL is reading all of this, and I'd be willing to bet he's going back into his shell with every word. <p>We all have to change when something this traumatic happens in our marriages...do I see SNL starting to change in subtle ways...putting his arms around you in bed...intimate talks...understanding when you couldn't eat dinner and going to the book store with you? Am I completley off base here or is this man trying in spite of himself to show you something? If so, be very quiet and watch and listen and you might just see the very start of a sort of healing.<p>I hope so.<p>And Thinker, I know it's hard with sick parents and grown kids and all of that, but remember, he is your husband, take care of him first, I had to learn this the hard way...I hope you don't.<p>allison

Wow, az allison, excellent post!<p>snl and thinker,<p>I have tried every which way to get both of your attention... I've asked direct questions (often ignored) I've reached out (sometimes ignored)... and I've let my own hurt feelings get in the way of the truth -- you have your own lives to live right now, to get through the days which must be some kind of painful process if any of what we see here is an indication.<p>So, here's what I'd like to say: You both are Christians. Pray. Just pray. Don't do anything else. Nothing else. Cry out to God to heal your lives -- separately, together, as a family... <p>I know that's what I'll be doing for you two from now on.<p>May God bless your family.

TR,<p>I understand what you are saying. I can see your point. However, here's another side too. When we are Christians we search our souls and our actions every day. We ask God to forgive us for our sins. He and she may be a Christian but instead of him searching his own soul, I only see him searching for blame on her part. Instead of him "confessing his sins before men" as God ask us to do, I see him continuing in his lies and not taking blame and asking for forgiveness. He comes on here trying to convince the world this is his wife's fault. He may be a Christian but I can see how she finds it hard when he isn't acting much like a Christian. Christians make mistakes but try hard to be Christ like. How is he seeing the things he has done and making amends for these mistakes. <p>I can understand why she is questioning his faith. I don't see him trying to live a Christian life, I only see him defying God's commandments.<p>God does forgive sins but only when we pray, ask for forgiveness, try hard to live as Christ want us to live, and try not live day by day in the same sin.<p>I don't know what's in his heart, but I can see why she struggles with this every day. He needs to get his heart and soul right with God if he is a Christian.<p>Take care Thorned Rose,<p>ANNA

I am an aetheist, so I don't have anyone to forgive me if i screw up, so I try not to hurt others because I have only myself to be responsible to, and the only statement that ever made an impact on me was:<p> The lord helps those who help themselves. <p>So how have each of you helped yourself towards a more fulfilling marriage? If not why not?<p>If you don't want to, then fine, state the goal and move on with your lives. otherwise, you are just scared of facing yourself and your own responsibilities.<p>WIFTTy

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>I am an aetheist, so I don't have anyone to forgive me if i screw up, so I try not to hurt others because I have only myself to be responsible to, and the only statement that ever made an impact on me was:<p> The lord helps those who help themselves. <p>So how have each of you helped yourself towards a more fulfilling marriage? If not why not?<p>If you don't want to, then fine, state the goal and move on with your lives. otherwise, you are just scared of facing yourself and your own responsibilities.<p>WIFTTy</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Wifty,<p>I'm sure you already know this, but alot of people don't know. The statement you just quoted isn't in the bible, nor is it biblical.<p>Anyway, I have to say, I mean this so very sincerely, a deep sadness came over me as I read your post. I don't know why, I've heard others say they were athiest and didn't get as sad as when I read you say it. <p>Do you ever feel something is missing in your life? Like there's more to life than you know. I think you may. I think I'm sad because I think you are missing the thing that could make you happy. I think some day you will be a Christian. I hope I'm right. Maybe it's because I am so sad by your statement, but someday I hope I come on MB and read an updated post that says you are now a Christian.<p>Well, I am hoping you don't think I am pushing Christianity on you. I don't usually talk to people about the bible or Christ unless they want me to.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>P.S.<p>One more thing regarding your question. As a Christian, since that isn't biblical, I don't see how it applies...<p>[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

Wifty,<p>One more thing, (AGAIN!) in case you or others wonder where the term, "God helps those who help themselves came from." Here's the true verse where it derived from, and one person took the verse and twisted it. As many people believe what they hear a lot of folks, even Christians, forget to research their bibles to see if this is God's actual word. Here's what the bible really said.<p>"God helps those who trust in the Lord with all their heart, and lean not on their own understanding"! Proverbs 3:5-6<p>This one statement when read as written says an aweful lot. It is basically saying, When we leave God out of the picture in solving problems, God leaves us to deal with those
problems on our own, and without His help. Also it is saying, we need to lean not on our own feelings inside us, but in the Lord and his teachings.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

Anna<p>Thank you for your kind thoughts, however, lets look at your dilemma this way:<p>How many religions are there currently?
How many have there been since civilization began?<p>When you picked your religion, did you do adequate research to make sure you picked the best one for your needs? Why did you pick yours or say, muslim or buddism?<p>Or did you just blindly go along with the one introduced to you first from your family of origin?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Do you ever feel something is missing in your life? Like there's more to life than you know. <hr></blockquote><p>Nope. . . i have travelled many parts of the world, some very poor, other very religious. I have been very successful in my two careers, my sports, my exploration of the world, me extracurricular activities, (stuff I can control) I have been to jerusalem, toured the holy lands, etc. I was schooled at a very christian church school. I do believe there was a great philosopher named Jesus, and he had lots of followers. But that does not mean i need an external source for hope or guidance. One can adopt similar basic principles and survive quite nicely.<p>Since people over time through history have used religion as an excuse to promote their interests on others, to "civilize" the non believers, and to kill or fight the different peoples, I do not want to be associated with the political organizations of religion that can be abused for self serving people, and cannot tolerate differences and coexist with different philosophies.<p>This statement is not to say all people are or that there are not good religious people, it is just my position that I don't want that association.<p>lets just leave my view point of religion as it serves its purpose for people who need guidance and explanations for what they need guidance for what they can't control, or can't explain and can't do it themselves, or for some reason require an explanation that they feel comfortable with.<p>The woman i am dating is a very religious person, and I would not do anything to change that, as long as she can accomodate me within her life and respect my viewpoint without having to insist that her viewpoint is correct or the only viewpoint. . .
tom

Wifty,<p>In response to your post.<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=34&t=004906<p>ANNA

anna...I posted to you recently on a separate thread. You didn't respond. I took it as you read it but had no comment. If you don't respond to this one, I'll take it the same way.<p>Snl...I read all the threads addressed to or responding to me, and I think about them all, even kalgrl's (who I am begining to think would happily string me from the nearest tree), I am not always able to respond (only so much time, and occassionally I lose one, I lost a big one to you a couple days ago [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] , I walked away from comp for a minute, my son set down and accidently erased 1 1/2 hr of work grrrrrrrrr). Sometimes I wish we could all go to some kind of MB forum convention for a week, and just talk it all out.<p>anna...I am sure you could careless if I or anyone here has respect for you or not but I want you to know the reasons why I have absolutely no respect for you.<p>snl.... It is true my self-worth is mostly internalized, knowing what I do about the vagaries of human respect.....however, I do care what people think about me, if I assess they are being fair and not just dumping on me. You are a tough critic, and overly judgemental on occassion (IMO), but I sense you are not meanspirited, and are being constuctively critical in your own mind, and that is ok, and I value it.<p>anna...Incredibly as I write this, I may sound angry but I'm not angry as much as I'm just sickened by your not taking blame for your own actions. My hopes in this post is to knock some sense into you with my words of truth.<p>snl...I don't understand what you mean by blame. I have never done anything but take responsibility for my actions. What does taking blame look like? <p>anna...On another post you said something like this, "My lover and I kept our affair from my wife and her husband because we knew they would control us and ruin it all for us." That is just the sickest way of looking at an affair I can imagine. Your reasons were selfish and were only to try and justify your lust from a woman outside your marriage. Your actions, your reasons, your blame and your post make me want to throw up.<p>snl...It was not lust anna, if lust drove me I would have had an affair long long ago. As for secrecy, that is just the truth, it is the reason affairs (and lots of things people do) are secret, to avoid interference. I suspect you have deliberately kept things from people too, cause you did not want interference, it is a normal human behaviour.<p>anna...You don't even understand how she is feeling about your betrayal. Betrayal like this is almost like raping your wife. You raped her of making decisions to be with a cheater. You weren't just making choices for you but you bullied her into choices with your lies. <p>snl....It is hard to respond to such rhetoric anna. It is not real, rape is rape, it is a violent personal crime. Part of the difficulty in dealing with marital disharmony is the inflammatory language used. The emotions are real, but the realities are mundane. There is nothing particularly noteworthy about the breakup of a pair relationship. It is an experience most have, often several times (or more. And always involves some amount of "betrayal" (for the simple reason the breakup generally will not occur without some shift of focus away from the partner). Some would say but it is MARRIAGE, that really makes no difference. The reality is people experience grief and a time of dislocation, and they continue on with life, often bonding with someone else, living happily ever after. There is no good outcome from rape. In fact if one removed the security and financial issues from divorce, it would probably be considerably less noteworthy alltogether. <p>anna...You took away her right to choose. She did not have a right to choose to kick a husband out who had physical contact with someone else.<p>snl...Yes she did. I did not deny (except briefly) I had actually met the ow, I just refused to discuss it, she was free to take whatever action she wanted as a consequence. I also told her I would tell her all the truths in due time. No one owns anyone Anna. I have no obligation to tell anyone anything if I so choose not too. I told my w the truth cause I thought it fair to do so, I did it in my way in my time, and I am willing to experience the consequences of that action, what more can you ask of a human being?<p>anna...Most importantly she did not have the information she need to choose to sleep with you or not afterward. She was raped of the right to insure her safety and make sure you didn't get aids or another disease from Ms. Pure and Innocent. <p>snl.....I agree with the absolute right of someone to know these things. My w suspected the truth, I did everything but verify her suspicions, and I did not want any physical contact with her, she insisted, and she insisted quite forcefully. But be that as it may, I accept your chastisement that I did not give her all the facts so as to remove any doubt/hope she may have clung to re this matter. In a perfect world none of this would happen. In a perfect world every marriage would be "right" and happy and nurturing too, but the world is not perfect, and stuff is not always handled perfectly. But I am comfortable, my w willingly chose to hope there had been no physical contact, when she knew it was just denial. So yes, I decieved by ommission, but I did nothing to encourage her, or seduce her. I would have preferred she did not want physical contact with me. I told her I did not want it with her, but she would not take no for an answer, so must share at least in part with the outcome.<p>anna...I am not saying there can not be forgiveness in all this. I just see no remorse at all for your actions. Instead I see you trying so hard to justify your bad choices by rewriting the history of your marriage, by making your wife out to be this munipulative witch that she is by far NOT. You blaming her for so much.<p>snl....Once again I do not blame my w for anything, anymore than I blame myself, both are useless focus.....instead I seek to understand who I am, who she is, what this marriage is or is not, and whether it should continue....to that end by necessity I must discuss many things of a conflictual nature. This does not mean I think my wife is a witch. But the truth is she has for many years been an angry, critical, emotionally neglectful woman, who regularly attacked my self-worth, and said she wanted to divorce me...good or bad, those are just facts. It is why this happened (and vice versa re me from her viewpoint), that I am not just going to ignore. It needs to be understood.<p>anna...I read an article on blame once. It said "People blame others because the load of guilt is too heavy to bear." I think this is you, you come on here searching for validation for the things you did wrong. <p>snl...Once again anna, I do not seek, nor do I need, validation. I have no intention of doing what anyone or everyone thinks I should in any regard, be it staying or leaveing, or anything in-between. Rationalist simply do not function that way, we literally do not care what anyone thinks, we only care about truth and understanding, and what is the better argument.<p>anna...You try to blame your wife because if you look at the real truth it would be a load of guilt you could not bear. Well, you need to know, you will not be free from the pain and suffering inside you until you face your actions, take blame and confess to everything you did wrong.<p>snl....I am human, and do experience from time to time feelings I would probably label guilt. But they play little role in the conduct of my life. Guilt is a poor reason to make decisions, or choose actions. It's primary use IMO is to get your attention, and encourage review of actions. Guilt may be "justified" but it can also be false. I feel very little guilt re this because I had been a loyal and faithful husband, I know I bear my w no ill-will, and my intentions for the ow were honorable (which is why my w is so distressed, she knows I am not capable of flings or using people, she knows I made committments arising out of legitimate feelings). That is the problem anna, what does one do? If I can just "forget" the ow, and write her off as a no-good person, and my behaviour as lust....what does that say about me? And worse what does it say about any feelings for my w, are they also shallow, and I am just using her? You cannot have it both ways methinks. <p>anna...You may think you are so great for sticking in a marriage when you want out. Sacrificing your happiness. You are putting yourself, your wife and your family through misery because of all this. <p>snl....I do not think I am great, I am just a man trying to find his way out of a very confusing forest. I am not putting my w and family through anything, it is just life anna, are you suggesting I just lie? Put on a happy face, pretend I have no issues....to make their lives happier....is that what you would do? Are you emotionally honest anna, do you reveal your deepest feelings, or do you gaurd some?<p>anna...It's time you be the husband God wants you to be. <p>snl...I don't know what God wants for me, and you can be even less sure...right?<p>anna....Sure you are going to counseling but you are not doing anything the counselors says. <p>snl....I assume you realize you can't know this, but for the record (once again) I am do appropriate things, I am not doing everything folks would want.....why? Cause I am human, Im have a will, I am not a robot.<p>anna....You are not trying. You are just holding on as long as you can. Before she can forgive you, you need to have full remorse. <p>snl...If that is true, then I will never be forgiven. I made choices, they were in some ways the right choices, in other ways not, there is no possible way to paint this black and white.<p>anna...You need to stop blaming and take responsibility for your actions. You need to see how unfair this was to not give her a choice in whether you wanted a lying, cheating husband. SNL, you need to put your wife first and love her the way a husband is suppose to love his wife.<p>snl....Do you mean just "do it", no matter how I feel, just do what others say I should? How does one do that anna, how do you do it? Don't you do what you want?<p>anna...You say you believe in God and Jesus. You say you are responsible for your wife's needs for the rest of your life. Well what she needs is a faithful, loving husband. You think you can support her and give her money, buying yourself a guilt free conscience well you can't.<p>snl.....Are you saying I don't have any responsibility to provide for her (implied by your use of word buying in place of my word responsible). As for her need for a faithful loving H, the problem is one cannot provide those things by choice. I can only choose to care for her, one does not need to be married to care. I cannot choose to romantically love her, that is beyond cognitive action, and it is that I seek to understand.<p>anna....The bible says you are to love your wife as you love your own body. Do you? The bible says you are to love your wife as Christ loves the Church. Do you? The man is suppose to be the spiritual leader in the household. What are you teaching your family as a spiritual leader? <p>snl...This is not the place to engage in a religious discussion, I have done so here and there a fair amount allready. I agree though if you are bonded in a oneflesh union with a spouse, the issue is is that what we have, or ever had. A marriage license is just a piece of paper, and vows made without understanding and requisite intent also are meaningless. Too many people approach this subject legalistically, and make the secular act of state sanctioned cohabitation (ie marriage) equate spirtitual marriage...it does not. Many people who think they are married, are not, they only have a piece of paper IMO. I realize that is a contentious position to take, but it is the only one I can take that reconcilles the facts I observe all around me, with what the Bible says about marriage, and my understanding of freewill.<p>anna...Here's a post you did this morning on another MBers thread. It makes you sound like the biggest hypocrite alive. How can you come on MB condemning those who lust and have affairs when you did just that and you aren't taking full responsibility for your own actions. <p>snl...I didn't lust anna. You are free to assess I am just denying. But if you insist on calling attraction to someone lust, then I married my wife simply cause I lusted for her, is that why you married your H.....lust? As for advice I give, if we all had to be perfect to give advice, guess there would not be much advice given. I speak mostly from a behavioural viewpoint, not a moral/ethical one....I deal in pragmatic actions and consequences. Whether I have any good advice people must assess for themselves, however that does not make me a hypocrit.<p>anna...Maybe your wife is right and you used to be a decent person, but you aren't anymore. When I read your posts and you try to figure out who you are by all the psychology bull crap you lay out, I can only think what a waste. <p>snl.....You see no value in introspection? No value in unraveling such important issues as the psychology behind human bonding? No value in contemplating the mental health consequences of forcing oneself to behave in opposition to, ones feelings? Even the matrital gurus pretty much advise against sacrificial marriage...do you disagree? If that is true, then I must find out wihether my w and I are enthusiastic about each other, cause if either of us is not, is just "doing it" we only hurt ourselves, why would that be a good thing?<p>anna...Put that time into your marriage. <p>snl....That is what I am doing. I cannot remain married anna unless I feel and believe it is the right choice.<p>anna....I could careless about the psychology of why you make bad choices. I only know what you are doing is mean, cruel and wrong. <p>snl....It is none of those anna. It is hard yes, but it is honest, fair, and I am being as compassionate as I can. But ya know anna, selfish as it may be, life is not just about my w, it is about me too, I do count, I am not just a fixture in anyone elses life.<p>anna.....You come on here and verbally abuse your wife, the person you are suppose to respect and love as you love your own body. You tell people a skewed view of how she's munipulative and so forth, I see munipulation in almost ever post you present on MB. I can't stand the way you continually treat her. All I want now is for you to wake up and be the husband God wants you to be. <p>snl....Anna, I am honest, respectful, about very very difficult stuff, why is that abuse? It sounds to me like even having the thoughts and concerns I do you find offensive. How does one ever change anna? How does one ever understand why they are unahppy if they don't face stuff, how does one ever leave a marriage if they are unwilling to question the marriage? And if we will never leave it, then what is it? It is not love, it is not bonding, it is an obseessive focus on a picture, a legalistic ordering of our lives. I can't live that way anna, it is not who I am, it is not the way God crafted this Joseph.<p>anna...Apologize to your wife, SNL, tell her sincerely what you did was wrong and you will not do it again.<p>snl....I have, a number of times, and indeed I am fairly certain I will never choose to pursue love under the conditions we label an A.<p>anna....Be a real man and take responsibility! Get your respect back!<p>snl....Does that mean respect can only come if I choose a particular path? Or does it come cause I weigh all the facts, and make a proactive choice regardless of that choice? Is respect the process, or the outcome?<p>anna....I have a feeling Ms. Pure and Innocent is on her third or fourth affair right now. I think she also came up with excuses why she didn't want you anymore. <p>snl....You don't know her anna, you cannot possible have a useful opinion (good or bad). Maybe she rejected and abandoned me, maybe not, only she knows for sure. But she (and anyone involved in an A) if they have any ethics/morals at all (and yes, most of us do, we are no different than most of the bs, we are all just people), find themselves under enormous emotional/psychological pressure......and doing the "right" thing becomes very confusing. Was she scared, and lonely, and guilt-riden? Sure, does that make her a bad person? Seems more like makes her a good person, a normal person. On the other hand, maybe the conquest was over, the jig up, the w knows, time to move on, I have no reason to believe that.....but regardless of what the truth is about her, or me, neither of us tried in any way to make the other leave their spouse. As for having another affair, she had no need to tell me, I never would have known. Ya know anna, people are people, in all their infinite variety and fittings. It may serve a need for the bs to demonize the op, but that does not make it so. This is not the place to analyze the ow, she is gone now, the A is over, she is no more "guilty" than I, and I perhaps more so. I chose to act on my emotions, but I knew where this was all going to end up, not the details, not the intensity, but I knew the piper would have to be paid. I don't know yet whether the price was too high, but I think not, a lot of "work" needed to be done in a lot of lives. That may drive some of you nuts, but to an analyrtical type it makes perfect sense.<p>anna....I think she tired of you. She wanted something different. You weren't fulfilling her sexually anymore than her husband was. She's now sucking someone else's husband into her poor, misunderstood life. Ruining another marriage as I type. What makes your Ms. Pure and Innocent be any different than the person you described in your post linked above? What makes you any different? That link describes you both.<p>snl...Maybe nothing makes us any different anna. <p>Maybe you are absolutely right. It is one of the possibilities I keep in mind.<p>Thank-you for your effort....may I ask you a couple questions, would appreciate an in-depth answer, and one having to do only with you, not me.<p>1. Why stay married?...assuming all the needs of your spouse are met.....financially, security, you remain available as extended family [yes an x is extended family]..... if two people are not passionately in love....why do you need to be married to "caringly" love each other?<p>2. Do you think feelings are important? Or do we just stay married to whoever we happened to marry in the ignorance of our youth, because of legalism (vows and committment etc.).<p>3. If feelings are important, how do you (and why should you) act in opposition to your feelings?<p>Do not factor in children. There is a higher degree of sacrifice involved with young children, but the days of staying married for the psychological benefit of the kids are long past. The difficulty I have with many of the bs arguments is that the ws should just "do it"....ok, I disagree, but I can understand all the reasons.....what makes me a little crazy is not only do they want them to just "do it" but they have to like it to...no not just like, "love" it......since we cannot manufacture feelings we kinda expect the ws to violate radical honesty and just not let the bs know they really don't want to do it, but are doing so for various reasons..... the bs is a better deal, the ws figures they must for religious reasons, the op dumped em, a whole bunch of stuff, everything but feeling passionate for them. So the ws says I love you too, and works on their list of meeting your needs, but you know, deep down, they really don't want to be there, they are just making do, putting in their time, what does that do to people? And why would anyone want it? Yet that is what many marriages are, more than a few on the recovery board, celebrating the "struggle" of working on marriage, but never admitting the truth to each other, they really don't want this, they are just doing it cause they don't know anything else to do, and call it love. <p>4. If that is all marriage is...a struggle...why do it at all anna, why not just be single? What point is there to being married?

A Few Things:<p>Snl: I have no obligation to tell anyone anything if I so choose not too. I told my w the truth cause I thought it fair to do so, I did it in my way in my time, and I am willing to experience the consequences of that action, what more can you ask of a human being?<p>Cjack: That isn't really "radical honesty," is it? It is Conditional Honesty. You are honest when and where you decide to be honest.<p>Snl: I had been a loyal and faithful husband, I know I bear my w no ill-will, and my intentions for the ow were honorable (which is why my w is so distressed, she knows I am not capable of flings or using people, she knows I made committments arising out of legitimate feelings). That is the problem anna, what does one do? <p>Cjack: I have to strongly disagree. You have NOT been a loyal and faithful husband. Your intentions with the OW were NOT honorable. How could you argue otherwise? Your feelings regarding the OW do not legitimize your actions, regardless of your "will" toward your W. What does one "do?" One does not act on impulse, passion, or any other temporary emotion. You are once again trying to rationalize your actions.<p>Snl: As for secrecy, that is just the truth, it is the reason affairs (and lots of things people do) are secret, to avoid interference.<p>So lying is a part of radical honesty? Secrecy is part of the truth? I'm sorry, but keeping something secret to "avoid interference" hardly seems like radical honesty to me.<p>Does "avoiding interference" justify lying? <p>Snl: I am not putting my w and family through anything, it is just life...<p>I've read Thinker's posts. You are putting her (and your children) through hell. I wish I had a solution for you, and I don't. But to deny that you are causing them pain is the deepest denial. You are being dishonest with yourself, SNL.

cjack...Snl: I have no obligation to tell anyone anything if I so choose not too. I told my w the truth cause I thought it fair to do so, I did it in my way in my time, and I am willing to experience the consequences of that action, what more can you ask of a human being?<p>Cjack: That isn't really "radical honesty," is it? It is Conditional Honesty. You are honest when and where you decide to be honest.<p>snl....Jeez cjack, you are driving me nuts sometimes. So your version of radical honesty is to immediately blurt out everyting in your life the instant you think it, or it happens....come on, you know that isn't how life works, nor is it how harley explains radical honesty. But if you insist, then ok it is conditional honesty, cause radical honesty does not exist, delay even a microsecond and you have violated the standard YOU just set for radical honesty!!!!!! Ok, can we agree there is some sort of standard here, and that when one says in my time and my way they have that in mind? In other words waiting 10 years to reveal an affair could be considered a tad self-serving, but immediately tieing em to the chair and spilling your guts entirely without taking a breath is probably not the best method either, especially if they are taking um...... the bar exam next week....ya get my drift guy? I was balancing a lot of conflicting issues, her needs, my needs, family needs, and I did what I thought best.....isn't that what YOU do...ya know, what you think best?<p>Snl: I had been a loyal and faithful husband, I know I bear my w no ill-will, and my intentions for the ow were honorable (which is why my w is so distressed, she knows I am not capable of flings or using people, she knows I made committments arising out of legitimate feelings). That is the problem anna, what does one do? <p>Cjack: I have to strongly disagree. You have NOT been a loyal and faithful husband. Your intentions with the OW were NOT honorable. How could you argue otherwise? <p>snl...Up till the affair I was a loyal faithful husband, why is this a problem for you?<p>cjack....Your feelings regarding the OW do not legitimize your actions, regardless of your "will" toward your W. What does one "do?" One does not act on impulse, passion, or any other temporary emotion. You are once again trying to rationalize your actions.<p>snl...Rationalize? Hardly, I was done, my wife had on the table a standing offer for divorce, I accepted it..... Yes, I had already acted on my feelings for ow......but ya know, right or wrong, I felt my wife left me long ago, long before I met the ow....so what does that mean? It certainly was not the affair. I was not sharing or doing much of anything with my w (nor whe I), I was contemplating a future without her (either seperated or divorced)...the only thing missing was the divorce decree, something pretty much irrelevant anyways, divorce begins in the heart, and someone always goes first. Ya know I think life would be a lot more simple if we just eliminated the piece of paper, and went back to the olden days where divorce simply meant one spouse told another I am done, and left..... that would eliminate all this phoney rationalization crap, and people continually saying but we are "married" (cause of the legal circumstances) when in their hearts they are not married.<p>Snl: As for secrecy, that is just the truth, it is the reason affairs (and lots of things people do) are secret, to avoid interference.<p>So lying is a part of radical honesty? Secrecy is part of the truth? I'm sorry, but keeping something secret to "avoid interference" hardly seems like radical honesty to me.<p>snl...You are right it is not radical honesty. I had no interest or intention of being honest with my wife, it never got me anything more than a kick in the teeth. My w never had the slightest interest in my feelings or thoughts, only in so much as how it affected her. I learned early on in my marriage to keep my mouth shut, and my thoughts well hidden. I don't do that anymore, and she is not doing well with the honesty, heck even you guys have trouble with it, and commiserate with her how awful I am.....maybe I should just start clamming up again.....what do you think?<p>Does "avoiding interference" justify lying? <p>snl...Absolutely.<p>Snl: I am not putting my w and family through anything, it is just life...<p>I've read Thinker's posts. You are putting her (and your children) through hell. I wish I had a solution for you, and I don't. But to deny that you are causing them pain is the deepest denial. You are being dishonest with yourself, SNL. <p>snl...I am not putting them through anything. Unless you are suggesting my feelings don't count, and I should just hide them to avoid distressing anyone....is that what you think? I don't count? Now if I was being deliberately hurtful, rude, unnecessarily insensitive...fine, chastise me.....but where is the line cjack, where is the line that says my feelings count too and must be dealt with no matter how hurtful others might find that......? Or

Oh, what a host of issues we have here!<p>Snl: But if you insist, then ok it is conditional honesty, cause radical honesty does not exist, delay even a microsecond and you have violated the standard YOU just set for radical honesty!!!!!! Ok, can we agree there is some sort of standard here, and that when one says in my time and my way they have that in mind? In other words waiting 10 years to reveal an affair could be considered a tad self-serving, but immediately tieing em to the chair and spilling your guts entirely without taking a breath is probably not the best method either, especially if they are taking um...... the bar exam next week....ya get my drift guy? I<p>Cjack: "In my time and in my way" is just another way of saying "I'll be honest with you when I'm damned good and ready!" Or better yet: "Gosh, I'm taking the bar exam next week, so you should forgive me for lying to you for awhile!"<p>Horse-hockey!<p>Don't even pretend to practice radical honesty if you are not prepared to offer no excuses.<p>
snl...Up till the affair I was a loyal faithful husband, why is this a problem for you?<p>Cjack: That's like saying "Until I murdered those people, I was an upstanding citizen...give me a break!"<p>Sorry, but we need to judge you by your actions...ALL your actions! To suggest that we only judge you by your good times is a little odd, don't you think?<p>Snl: I had no interest or intention of being honest with my wife, it never got me anything more than a kick in the teeth. My w never had the slightest interest in my feelings or thoughts, only in so much as how it affected her. <p>Cjack: Had you ever thought of being honest for honesty's sake? I would also argue that your attitude towards your W totally disregards her feelings. Is this revenge? If so, is revenge rational?<p>Snl: snl...I am not putting them through anything. Unless you are suggesting my feelings don't count, and I should just hide them to avoid distressing anyone....is that what you think? I don't count? <p>Cjack: I am NOT suggesting that your feelings don't count. What I AM suggesting is that YOUR feelings don't trump THEIR feelings. You ARE putting them through hell, but you justify it by saying that it makes you feel good. What kind of logic is that? Are you blind to what they feel? Is there not some middle ground? You say "damn their feelings, my feelings are more important!"<p>Have you no compassion? How can you ask for sympathy when you yourself are so unsympathetic?