Dismal future for us! - Marriage Builders® Forums

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How do you accept the fact that your WS talks about a divorce? He has not actually said that he wants one, but the body language and actions suggest it. We have been counseling with the Harleys for months & months. Jennifer said Monday the future does not look good. H does not want to follow the path they suggest. He has rebuted the path from day one, basically said he would do things and then turn right around and not do it. He states to me and counseling that he will do it his way. I read his posts, not from a few days ago, Jennifer told me to not read them. Too upsetting, H says he never loved me, he never loved me at the alter. The only one he has ever loved is the OW. I read for 23 years he was a dutiful husband, and all. He was miserable for 23 years. I could tear him down, but I won't. I have read enough of tearing me down. And it hurts like h*ll! H will counsel with Steve while Jennifer is gone to the wonderful warm climate!I know of a lawyer, already talked to some people about getting a lawyer, and they suggested a good one. One only knows when action starts. Should I go and talk to him to find out what my rights are of a marriage of 23 years? Sad-N-Lonely says to me if I go to the lawyer, it is negative feedback to our marriage. I've read his posts, he doesn't want to be married to me. He had the highlights of a wayward spouse with a woman who has had more than 1 physical affair. I guess she gave him the love, in-love, one-flesh, soulmate etc. that he is looking for. We don't have a chance, without H being 100% in following the path. I have been doing pretty good at plan A. But after Monday counseling, I am downsizing the plan. It is hard doing all, and getting so little back. Like today, he called me a name. I was very busy with going to my ortho doctor, cause I had knee surgery 2 weeks ago and had stitches taken out and PT to follow today. Took awhile to see the doctor cause they had an emergency at the office with a patient. I went to a parts supplier for H. I went to another hospital for blood work for my other doctor. I stopped at the grocery store to pick up something quick for dinner. Came home, brought groceries in, and put them away. 15 year old son had saxophone lessons, so I took him to the lesson and stayed out in the parking lot at the high school and chilled out while lesson in session. Came home and H stated the checks should of been deposited in bank. (Checks from customers). Yes, they should of, H was home for periods of time, why couldn't he have made the slip out and had oldest daughter take and deposit them or himself? I defended myself, and he called me a name. He apologized, but you do not call someone you love terrible names. So he does not love me at all. I felt he didn't care how busy I was today, just get the work done. Maybe wrong, but it is how I feel today. Also, I am dealing with my dad and his cancer. He has lymphoma cancer on the brain, and right side of his face. This is heartbreaking to see your parent deteriate before your eyes. He is receiving radiation and it is doing good, but the side effects are causing some problems. My mother has her hands full with a husband who is walking with a walker, and eating soft foods. H asks occasionally about my dad, which is good. My H had a childhood that was not what he wanted. He had a alcholic father and a young mother, had him when she was 18. They married and divorced when H was 4. H has a brother 2 years younger.
They don't talk hardly at all. Last time H saw his brother was about 10 years ago. I didn't have the best of childhood either, but I look at my childhood with promises and positive outlooks. My parents tried, with what they knew, they both came from poor polish families, that the father was not there. So the older ones had to help support the farm. Why is it that some people look at their past so negative, and some look at their past with positive attitudes, but realize there could of been changes, But are glad they have two good parents? H and I met at a physical ed class. I admired him for wanting to stay physically fit. H and I have quite a bit in common. We both like to read, we both liked the outdoors when we met. We used to go occassionally to concerts, we both used to like outdoor activities. Families were important to my husband, as well as having children. We used to talk and talk about everything. We would stay on the phone for hours talking and when we went to the park we would talk and talk. He I thought loved me and I loved him. I knew he was special after the 2nd date. First date, I was looking deep into his eyes. He has beautiful brown eyes, with lots of thought.H became a overprotective person. When we married I supported the family. He went to school. He was the one who gave me emotional support to complete nursing school before we married. I became pregnant right away, and about the 5 or 6th month of pregnancy I started to spot bleed, and had to get off my feet. So I stayed home and H had to work. This put a burden on us. We had no insurance for the baby, therefore we had to save to pay the hospital bill. When the baby came, he would not allow me to go anywhere without asking him. This got solved later. I worked most of the time, parttime. I started with the first child, housecleaning. We were in another state and my license was not valid in that state. Then I took in babysitting when the other children started coming in to our life. I also, taught piano lessons. Later when the youngest was 2, I worked the afternoon shift as a nurse. We were starting our own business and I would answer the phone for that and get ready to work the afternoon shift (nursing). I have been running the business for the last 12 years. Injured in nursing and not able to lift beyond 10# now. H worked very hard during all this time too. But we would not go out hardly at all. H didn't want a babysittter watching the kids, he didn't want to go out with me. I felt I didn't have a husband who loved me, wanted to treat me like a princess. It was hard taking care of the kids during the day and then staying home at night. I didn't want to go out every night, but once in a while to have time just for us. I was willing to do for him all these years, and still am willing to do. Family was important to my H. Seems it still is, but then it isn't. He talks about divorce, and he basically says, so if the family gets hurt by divorce. Why shouldn't he be happy with someone else? So what am I to do? H still wants to work on marriage, but I don't feel very good about it. H keeps telling me that I would be happier with someone else. I know for a fact, I will never marry again, put my life in anothers heart and to have it broken later. I would actually rather live with the guy, then when he wants to leave let him leave. But God does not look at living together with positive eyes, as well as divorce. So H is going to impose divorce on me, and all I can do is accept it. Where do you start? H keeps telling me to talk to people on the board, so here I am - - - HELP!!! I know you guys have read his posts, what do you think? You think the Harleys are right? Also, Jennifer and I talked about plan B. Was a suggestion she made to H quite a few months ago, and he said he would never leave the house. So she said I would have to leave. We talked about plan B Monday night. This is so hard to do. I hate life, I hate what my H has done to me, and the kids, and the family. Worst part is he feels no guilt or remorse about having a physical affair with the other woman. Even to this day, the other woman wants to keep this affair a secret from her H, because this is definitely her 2nd physical affair, and my detective said possibly a 3rd. Her and her H have been bankrupt 3 1/2 times, she admitted to that, so it shows that they don't know how to handle their money. And she has not worked one day in her life. So my H paid for her cell phone and her cell phone bills during the whole affair except for the last bill. So now her phone is disconnected for non-payment. This was great amount of $$$$$$. She has something better than I have to offer. I wish I knew what it was, she is not a morally good woman, doesn't believe in working, uses another mans money to get what she wants, then goes back to her husband like nothing happened. This is a christian woman with good morals? I have only had one person in my whole life, and that is my H. I dated others, but he is the only one that I had sex with. She had sex before marriage. I made my vows with a committment and guarantee. I guess there are very few of us left. I wish anyone who had an affair was flown to another planet, and they could deal with each other. Probably they would die of AIDS. That is the other thing that bothers me, AIDS can show up till 10 years later or longer. How does my H know that this woman didnot contact AIDS and pass it along to my H? It is passed with body fluids. They exchanged fluids with each other. H is a smart man, but he sure did a very stupid thing. Thanks for listening and help is needed.[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: thinker ]

Thinker,I am very impressed with the fact that through all your pain you are still able to point out the good quaities that you see in your H.It seems to me that you are working very hard and putting this marriage back together.Continue to Plan A. Do what you can to make yourself the best possible person you can be. You can't change him. You know that. So work on you.Good luck to you-Kat-

I think SNL talking to Steve while Jenn is out may be good...sometimes a different perspective helps. However, I'm not sure anyone can make much of a dent in someone who is as rigid in his thinking as SNL seems to be.As for his shift in values, SNL sounds like classic MLC-type stuff. And, while most people do recover from thinking the earth revolves around their navel some do not. Personally, I think I'd be thinking in terms of how much longer I am willing to wait for him to get onboard without separating. But, I am not you...what are you thinking? I am so sorry for your situation; esp. having to deal with your dad's illness on top of it all. You and your mom & dad remain in my prayers.Kathi

Thanks, my dad is doing pretty good for the problems he has. He gained 1/2 pound this week. He is now 118 1/2#. The radiation makes him so weak, he sleeps most of the day, doctor says is quite normal. Told my dad, if he didn't eat, a stomach tube would be placed in his system. Also, gave him appetite medicine to increase his appetite. Seems to be helping. Yes, H is rigid in his thinking, that is why I feel there is no hope. I am looking at improving myself. Our 19 year old daughter and I went to the indoor pool to do laps. It was great, and then we went out to eat. I told her I need help to improve my appearance. After physical therapy on my knee is over, I am going to join the gym she goes to. I said maybe we could go together sometime. Meet some new people. Also, I am going to start going to church, I just wish my H would go with me. But I guess I will have to go myself. I feel so bad inside that I don't have a group of people that I can consider my extended family. I will not go back to our other church, they know too much about us and the marital affair. It is an embarrassment to attend church knowing what my H did. And to be there for my parents is what I am dealing with the most. Mom needs help and I told her I am there anytime. Just Pray for us. Should I go see the lawyer, this is troubling me?

I really can't tell you what to do. If I were you, yeah, I'd probably go to the lawyer. OTOH, the smarter thing might be to give it a bit longer; let Steve & SNL talk then see what Steve thinks...Big Hugs--Kathi

((((((((((((((thinker))))))))))))))))My H told me he was not happy in our marriage, didn't want to try any more, had 2-5 A's during the marriage, and said he had enough.I got to the point of thinking that if he did not want to be here, why on earth hold on. He was never going to be the man I wanted, or remembered from our past years. He had changed, and unfortunately he didn't want me along for the ride, or the kids. All he wants is his own happiness.So at the time, I loved him enough to let him go and find it...I didn't know he had another bimbo lined up. I guess I should have expected it.For me, though, it has been three and a half months since we separated, and I am still hurting, I guess I still love him, in some way, and I am still angry at him for his selfish attitude. But you know what? I could not stand him around me, putting on his stone face, no affection, moping around, it was far worse than where I am now. Nor could I stand the sound of his dead voice on the phone, so when I found out for sure about OW, I went straight into Plan B. I had Plan A'd for 11 months.I am learning to get along without him, and it will be better than this one day. Nothing can be worse than being in a relationship when you know very well that one of you does not want to be there. It is self torture, in my opinion.I have read his posts, and he has never once waivered on his desire to end the marriage. I think that you should let him....my opinion only. I would hate for you guys to end your marriage on anything I said. Right now he is full of the grass is greener, and resentful of you for holding on. Clearly he has no respect for you, and this must all be so hard for you to live with.As for the lawyer thing? Please make up your own mind on that....I wonder why he thinks it is not a good idea for you to go to a lawyer....takes away some of his control of the situation, maybe?I am sorry my post is so negative, and you can flame me if you like. But I feel that what I went through, and now what you are going through is a kind of self-torture, and it can have an end. not the one we would like, but the pain can end one day, dear thinker.Love and light,Jacky

Since I've posted a few responses to SNL's posts, I'll tread lightly here, if I can..."How do you accept the fact that your WS talks about a divorce?"Don't try to accept it just yet. Losing a marriage is like losing a loved one. You will experience many emotional stages (denial, anger, etc.) before you are able to deal with it. Acceptance only comes at the end."H says he never loved me, he never loved me at the alter. The only one he has ever loved is the OW."They ALL say that. But as the Harleys will tell you, almost all affairs end soon after discovery, and very, very few lead to a happy, lasting relationship. My XW's relationship with her "true love" (the OM) fizzled out only a few months after our divorce."H still wants to work on marriage, but I don't feel very good about it. H keeps telling me that I would be happier with someone else."I heard that, too. Here is one way to approach thte situation: He must agree to "no contact" with the OW. I told my XW "I will not compete with another person for your affection. If our marriage is to work out, then it must be ONLY between you and me." He has to realize that a love triangle will never, ever work. In other words, he has to decide whether he is part of the solution, or part of the problem. There is no "in between.""We talked about plan B Monday night. This is so hard to do. I hate life, I hate what my H has done to me, and the kids, and the family. Worst part is he feels no guilt or remorse about having a physical affair with the other woman."I think he feels guilt, but has a problem expressing it. Like any WS, he is conflicted, and needs to go to great lengths to justify his behavior. Yes, Plan B is hard. I failed at it myself. In fact, my marriage failed entirely. Yet Plan B may be the only option for you at this point. Your H needs to sort things out on his own, and more importantly, you need time for you.And I'm terribly sorry to hear about your father. I lost my father to a heart attack when I was 21. And while it may be tough to see him during these tough times, consider yourself blessed to have him in your life for so long. Please cherish your time together, and say all the things that you want to say to him, as often as you can...some people never have that chance.

Ew said she never loved me even at the altar, said she married me for all the wrong reasons. She said OM was the love of her life. She said I never did anything right in 23yrs, Fooooooooooooog there. You don't marry and stay togheter 23yrs if there is nothing there. I did many good things and she knows it. Having an affair is the modt selfish thing someone can do. From what I hear things aren't going well for her and OM, but I have moved on and don't think I could ever go back, I quess I made a decision awhile back, If she doesn't want me then why would I want to hold one to her and be miserable, I decided to let go and see if she came back wanting me and only me, Well she hasn't yet, and I don't think she will, but that is ok now, I realize I couldn't have lived my life that way and that she wasn't good for me in many ways, I suggest just keep working on yourself and take care of yourself.

Dear Thinker:I am sorry for your situation and my prayers go out for your family. I have no experience with affairs so I cannot help you there. I have had and currently do now own a couple of businesses.I would strongly suggest given the current state of your relationship that you seek the counsel of a good attorney. The ability to skew the value of an in home business and shelter money is too great. This is particularly true where one person is the back office and the other has direct contact with customers.I am NOT saying this is the case in your situation but to be forewarned is to be forearmed. It is important that you understand your rights and set up plan should a divorce go forward to protect yourself. If you feel it would be benefical, I can give you an outline of the steps I would take if I were in your position. You can review and take to the attny for his approval. Let me know.Again, I am not saying anything negative about SNL. I find him intelligent and articulate. I am saying something proactive to you.My best to you and your family. I hope things turn out the best possible way for you.Jack[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: willmakeitwork ][ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: willmakeitwork ]

Nina to - yes, when I have been reading his posts, that is all he keeps saying is he wants the marriage to end. He never wanted to reconcile with me. He said he would try, but when he isn't willing according to counseling and myself, I have a hard time dealing with the situation.I talked to him last night about plan B. He is so adamant about not separating. I don't know if it is power over me, or he wants to work on things in the future. He has me spinning around and around. Willmakeitwork - yes he is articulate, and intelligent in some ways. He manipulates me with words, and actions. I proposed for him to stop disrespectful comments to me. Did one this morning, all computers down and wanted to get on the boards to see responses. Of course he got up, no good morning, no kiss, nothing. I went downstairs, went for my walk, started walking, with OK from Ortho doctor. Came back asked if he wanted breakfast, made breakfast, I ate, left his on counter. Told him breakfast is getting cold, asked how long be on computer. Can't say, have a long post to do, I said I would like to check computer and couldn't give me time. I said I will call your mom to see if she is on computer and then he gave me a sort of 20 min. So here I am on my MIL computer.H doesn't give me a direct answer when I ask him a question. He talks and talks, and I say you haven't given me an answer yet. This morning I asked about the computers, and he said I have told you 50 times etc. I felt it was disrespectful and told him not to talk to me that way. Seems H is just looking at me with devil eyes, he sees hate in me, looks at me with dislike, talks to me in a unrespectful manner, and I am burning out. He states he is not in a midlifecrisis. I feel he is totally wrong, he had this fling with a untrustworthy woman. So I am not like her, I am a strong worker, family is important to me, morals are important to me, our kids are important to me. Why does he see only good in this woman? I went through many old posts and never do I hear how awful the OW is, it is always me (his wife). This woman must be a saint disguised in a devil suit. They fit perfectly, she is his one-flesh, in-love, soulmate. I have repeadedly told him to go to her. She lives 2000 miles away. He says she doesn't want him. She is the one that ended the cellphone conversations. She called me and manipulated me with phone suicide. I guess she had ended her last conversation with my husband, and immediately called me to say she is going to commit suicide if we tell her husband about the affair. This is a respectful woman with a sane mind? Right! Needless to say, she called me 2 more times, to coerce me into not telling her husband, she wants to keep this affair a secret from him, since she has already had another physical affair. So I have told H many times go to her. I will buy you a ticket and call her to pick you up at the airport. I have let him go, he doesn't want to go, and he doesn't want this marriage. So what does he want? He keeps telling me to figure things out. Why can't he figure them out by himself, without any of us around. Maybe that is what he needs, but he won't do plan B. So I guess I will be the one to leave. Just keep praying for us, and I would like to have this marriage work. I know I love this man, and I know he does not love me now.

thinker,WOW, I have to say, I always wondered who SNL's wife was. I haven't read a lot of SNL's post because I just find myself getting mad at a person I don't know so I try to stay away from them. To be honest with you, as I read some of his post and I heard him talk about how you were a munipulator, his posts always told me otherwise, I think if anyone is a munipulator it's probably him. So I wouldn't feel so bad, I think anyone who really reads what he is saying doesn't believe the things about you anyway. I have always just thought, "His poor wife, will this guy ever get it."Is he still in this affair with her? If so, does he think he can have you and her too? What makes him think he can have both? When he writes he doesn't love you and he cuts you down so badly, when he has an affair and cheats on you, I don't understand how he can then say it is negative feedback if you go get a divorce. Who the heck is munipulating whom??? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] I'm sorry but if it were me, I'd go talk to that lawyer, get some good legal advice, tell him to get the heck out and go be with his "soul mate". I tell you what, if he continues looking for his "soul mate" he is going to grow old all by himself and die, indicative of his name, "SAD N LONELY!" I think he should add this to his name, "Sad, Lonely, angry, bitter, and fantasizing".You talk about how you were attracted to his brown eyes and him staying in good physical health. Please tell me some things about him that are good. Is he your partner? Does he give in the marriage or just expect you to always make him happy? Is he a kind, gentle man? Does he help you out with household chores? Is he your best friend? Does he respect you as his wife? What makes him a good husband other than brown eyes and keeping in shape? Please, give me something to make me respect this person, because to be honest, I don't.On the unhappy childhood. My stbx had an unhappy childhood too. The first years, I felt bad for him and supported him, gave him comfort regarding all his pain and sadness he had to deal with. As the years went on, I thought why can't he get on with his life and put the past in the past. Why does he have to wallow in his own misery? Why does he have to dwell over things that couldn't be? It took him beating me up one day for me to open my eyes and see just what kind of person he is and what kind of person I was feeling sorry for and making excuses for all the time. I think he loves to be miserable, I think he loves pity, he loves to blame and he loves to dwell on the past. He loves making excuses for all his bad choices. He blamed his unhappiness on so many people; his mom for abandoning him because she went in a mental institution when he was young, his dad for abandoning him for never being in his life, his Aunt for keeping his mom away from him when she got out of the hospital, his Uncle for keeping his dad away from him, he blames his ex girlfriends parents for killing their baby, because they talked her in to an abortion, and if it weren't for them they'd still be together, happily married and he would have finished college. He kind of forgets all about the fact his girlfriend found another boyfriend and didn't want him, also that she was old enough to make her own decisions. BLAME BLAME BLAME. Now, I get my chance in this picture of blame, he now blames me for making him beat me up, me for ruining his life and me for ruining our children's lives. I told him I can see him 20 years from now when I am out of his life and he has a new wife, telling his new wife it's all my fault he is the way he is to her and it's all my fault he's miserable. I'm sure the first few years he'll get that comfort and pity he craves from her, he'll tell her what a rotton childhood, how he never had a dad, how he had a wife that that ruined him forever by giving up on the marriage for absolutely no reason, his poor wife will see one side for awhile and he'll get the things he needs from her, but eventually she'll get the picture too. Too sad!Ok, sorry to vent so much on your post. Your post really struck a nerve.

Here's a quote happy_hus put on a thread, I think this sums up SNL...."Tom Robbins once wrote: The bottom line is that people are never perfect, but love can be. We waste time creating the perfect lover, instead of creating the perfect love. You can substitute the words “pursuing the perfect dream” or “crating the perfect marriage” for the
words “creating the perfect lover” and it is still just as insightful. Don’t let your fears and mistrust get in the way of creating the perfect love in your relationship. Fear is the only waste of time. Also, Jen said you may have to leave the house. Don't leave, if it comes down to one of you leaving, go see a lawyer first. Often you can get a court order to kick his butt out! I think with the affair and everything else, this would be easy for you to do, but if you leave the house before you get the order, it may not happen.Take care. Good luck in your decisions. BTW, If Jennifer would be giving your marriage more hope, I probably would have kept my comments to myself. However, I am kind of with her, it's time for a lawyer and plan B. ANNA[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

Dear Thinker,
I agree with some of the other posters in saying go see the lawyer. Just getting some information about your rights and next steps can be comforting.
I don't understand all the contridictions in your posts:
SNL doesn't want to be married to you.
SNL doesn't want a divorce.SNL won't leave.
SNL doens't want to be there.SNL wants to work on the marriage.
SNL doesn't want to follow Harley's advice or plan.SNL is only in love with OW - the soulmate, the perfect "fit".
SNL doesn't want to go to her.What is the deal with all of that? Perfectly scripted fogeese, if you ask me. You cannot change him, you cannot make him make a decision, you cannot make him want to do the work or want to stay or want to love you the way you need to be loved. You can only control yourself and your future. I think you should stop waiting for him to get his [censored] in gear. He spends way too much time pontificating about relationships instead of living the one he is in. You can't change that. Trying to will only cause you more pain.Go see the lawyer. Make a plan for your future. A business that you both have built over several years will be hard to split up. A 23 year marriage where you have worked to support the household is worth something. These issues may have more to do with his not wanting you to see the lawyer - protect yourself and your children.
You have nothing to lose by making the appointment.Good luck,
M

Wiffle,VERY well said!!!!You said basically a lot of what I said, in very few words. Sheesh! [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] ANNA

Thinker,I really am not going to steal your thread. Just had to make a quick note To ANNA.Anna it is good to see you vent. I believe that you need to do that. Sometimes it frees the soul and helps you to heal.Thinker, I agree, do not leave. Get an attorney, protect the business. and make him go away.He has made it clear he is not going to work on it so let him be San-N-Lonely all by himself. Then he can really sit on the Pitty Pot.My fear is that he chats in the same chat rooms that I do....eeeeeeeekkkkkk.-Kat-

Not to worry kat, I do not do chat. And I agree with all the advice given thinker, I'd proabably give her the same advice myself. Makes no difference (legal advice), I am obligated to take care of her needs rest of her life anyways, nor will I contest anything (if it comes to that), I won't have a lawyer, and I will sign whatever she thinks is fair. I will leave with the clothes on my back if that is what she desires. Of course, I would probably wonder why she did that (not that I think she would). Nor will I refute anything said here, we agreed not to read each others posts (but reading others responses is ok I guess, if not I am sure she will tell me). Maybe she is indeed better off without me.

sorry, used H login, redid below[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]

The census is go see the lawyer. I guess I will after the 3 weeks of counseling with Steve. Yes, I am going in circles. Since most of you have read his posts, I was hoping for some help. This is not going to be easy. Yes, he has called me a manipulator, I am to some extent, but I feel he is quite good at it himself. Being in a relationship, where H didn't want to go out hardly at all without the kids, made me feel unloved and unmarried. I don't want to say he is this or that. It is destroying the other person. Our marriage was not miserable for 23 years, in my opinion. But that is my point of view. We had problems, yes. I had a strong relationship with my father which caused problems. I am very close to him, that is why this cancer is tough to deal with. I will give my dad a kiss goodbye and tell him I love you dad, once in a while he will say it back. This illness is hard on dad, cause he was always independent, he started his own business, building his own building and clients. He ran a front end & alignment shop which is very well known around here. My brother took over the shop. Now he is dependent on others. He is in a deep depression.As far as what H is. He is a hard worker, started his own business. He is not good with paper work, his filing system is piles, mine is file cabinets. He is a good father, has displayed some uncaring attitudes towards the kids during the affair. He used to love families, but I read in one of his posts, why does it matter the family gets hurt during the divorce? Why shouldn't he be happy? He has also discussed it with me. I can only say that family matters a great deal to me. I love his mother, infact I went over to use her computer this morning, and she and I talked for about 45minutes. She is so depressed about various things, and so she talks to me about it.
H gets upset with her depression, and I try to help her. I know H loves his mother, but H can't seem to deal with people who seem to be anti-normal at the moment. I went on a service call with H to a rehab home awhile back, and there were 2 ladies in wheelchairs eating their meal. The one took my hand and held it and talked - couldn't understand very many words, but it was comforting to me to hold her hand and talk about her meal, and the roomate eating lunch with her. These are people too with hearts, minds (maybe a little messed up), tears, feelings. H does not like working on lawns and etc. I have done that until the kids got old enough. H does not do much in cleaning the house, vacuuming, dishes, etc. He says there are others to do that. He will put his dirty clothes in the basket, maybe not the same day, but soon enough. He handles the big financial decisions, I now handle the checkbooks, he did for years, but paperwork is not his positive action. He settles major conflicts. He handles various aspects of life dealing with finances, insurance, etc. I handle the medical stuff, and get things scheduled and organized. He used to be a kind man, a little rough on the edges. He is not so much for sympathy. I feel this OW gave him all this, kindness, sympathy, and love and that is all he sees now. He has changed and some of it is not for the good. He does flare up quite easily. Blames me quite a bit for wrong doings. It seems I will never measure up, and just being me is not good enough. I could be wrong, hope I am wrong. Anna2000 - you have been through some really rough times. I can see you vented, which is quite okay. Venting helps the heart and mind. Vent as much as you need. Don't be angry at SNL, he is who he is. As far as keeping in good shape, that is one thing that attracted me when we were dating. He is not in good shape now, and he will acknowledge that. He does not exercise, is trying to watch his diet, quite overweight. He loved to read still does, we used to talk and talk, we had a lot in common. There were many things that I liked about him and still do. 
He is now on the personality type of people. H and I are not the same. Our whole family did the Kiersey test and he did it on the OW. Him and the OW fit perfectly. So I guess after 23 years of marriage, now that he knows about the personality types of people, I am not like him, so get rid of the oddball and fulfill it with
someone new. Of course they will have to take the test first, before he considers marrying them. 
H and OW are not talking. Basically the OW cut off the conversation on the cellphone in July. I feel that if she didn't do it by threatening me with suicide first, if we tell her husband, that the conversation would of continued on. I could be wrong, but from what I saw after she told me she will not answer anymore of his voicemails, and stuff, that she promised me she would not talk to him anymore and doesn't ever want to see or hear from him again. Cause H left voicemails after that, and checked to see if her phone was still on until one day he announced it was no longer in use because she didn't pay her bill. H paid her phone and bills the rest of the time. So there is no contact, at least H tells me that. H is a good man, would be a good husband, is a good father. But he is messed up, and causing a lot of hurt feelings in this family. I don't know what is happening, I don't know if I am even married to this man. He had a physical affair with the other woman, and considered her his spiritual wife. Now I don't know how he feels abuot the other woman. Except I still know he loves her, and this woman has faults. But I have faults, and he does not love me. The BS gets the short end of the deal. The OW got all, she got my husband, our money, my husband physcially, took time away from my Husband working and family, she says goodbye to H and goes back to her H like nothing happened and lives the rest of her life without her family knowing, anything. Here our kids have been affected, and all of us. The pain is so unreal! Boy does that seem fair, the WS on that end gets it all. Wiffle - try to figure it out yourself. Jennifer is having a hard time with him and so am I. I have been praying so much, but I don't know what to think either. Like I said, I am going in circles. No place to go, or know what is going on. Not once do I see where he has said he loves me, only the OW. I do love this man, but my patience is running short. I see that he has responded, to my post. He doesn't say anything about loving me, only he will take care of me like a piece of luggage. We asked each other to not read each others post. I thought he was to stay totally away, guess I could go to his on GQII to read the responses of everyone and then get the idea of what he wrote. Again, I won't I promised Jennifer and my H. Just want to tell you all, I am not that bad person, H says I am. Our marriage was not miserable for 23 years, and I am in fact a very good person. I care about people, have a lot of empathy, sympathy, and would give the clothes off my back to help anyone. I have had to learn to say no, that is how caring I am. I have been there for my husband through all his surgeries, when he wakes up to see my face, not a stranger. I have been there for all his illnesses, been there for his grandmothers funeral. Been there to be with him when his family came around from other states. I have been a backbone for him for many years. Would be nice to see some love being stated too. Anyways, I am going to take the dogs (4) for a walk, need to cry, and I refuse to cry in front of my kids and family. Need time to vent to God.Sorry, I am using my H computer, and forgot it was addressed Sad-N-Lonely. Don't know how to correct the writer - who is me (Thinker). Guess I will go downstairs to find out - ask H.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by thinker:
.
Also, I am going to start going to church, I just wish my H would go with me. But I guess I will have to go myself. I feel so bad inside that I don't have a group of people that I can consider my extended family. I will not go back to our other church, they know too much about us and the marital affair. It is an embarrassment to attend church knowing what my H did.
<hr></blockquote>I have a question, why are you embarassed about
going to church that knows what happened??
Since they already know, they should be able to
offer you the Christian Family Support in which
you need right now..You shouldn't be embarassed by your husbands actions..they are his to be ashamed of or not, not yours..and he will be the one who has to answer for them before God..not you..And if your church family looks down on YOU for
his actions..then your right you don't need to
be there..but, they shouldn't..and they shouldn't
condemn him either..because God says, we are
all sinners..and no where have I found in the bible that one sin is greater, or lesser than
another..all sin is equal in God's eye's..and all
needs to be taken to Him..for forgiveness..and cleansing..yes, we need to ask others to forgive us if we've hurt them..but, they aren't required
to forgive in order for us to recieve God's forgiveness..were just required to go and ask, if they give it..wonderful, if they don't..well, thats between them and God..And you never know who within your church may
have the same struggles that you do..or who may
have already been through them that can offer you
the support and guidance that you need..as Christians we are to share our burdens with others..thats not saying we give them to let someone else carry for us, but to share them..
to open up and say.."hey, this is going on, and
I need help in dealing with this..has anyone else
been here, who can offer some Godly advice..that
can help???" By doing this it allows God to use
His children's experience to help others..and to help them grow and become more more like Him..and to show us how much He loves us..And if your H is embarassed by His actions about
the entire church congregation knowing..then..
well, thats for him to face..both before the church and God..not you..all you can do at that
point is be there to support him..if/when he comes back..and who knows..there may be one of the men
in the congregation who have been where your H is..and who can maybe talk to him..and help him
through whatever it is he is dealing with..in a loving non-judgemental way..that can help bring
him closer to Christ..And your church family can also be there to offer
support and prayers about your parents..I am sure
there are others who have also been through this
with a loved one..

Thinker,I was just just thinking..you say that your
h hasn't been supporting you right now as
your struggling with your fathers cancer..
and the thought of losing him..You know, this may be just as difficult for
him..he's never had a father figure in his
life..you have both said, his father walked
out when he was 4 yrs old..and he's probably
never grieved that loss in his own life..so
he probably doesn't understand what to do..
because it's something he's never had..he's
never had a father to be there for him, and
to comfort him when he was scared, or lonely
or hurting..or someone to encourage him in activities, things your dad apparently did
for you..So seeing you going through this is something
that is very foreign to him..Did it give him the right to have the affair?
No, it's no excuse..does it make it right that
he's not supporting you emotionally no..but
until he can come to the point of grieving
his own loss he may never be able to give you
the support you need..it may not be that he doesn't want to..but it's something he may
not even understand himself..about himself..I don't know how your husbands and your fathers
relationship has been over the years..if they
were close or not, but, if your father was like
a father figure to him in anyway..he may not even
understand the impact of this loss on himself..

Hi, I just wanted to share with ALL of you that reading the stories in this thread literally brought tears to my eyes. You all might as well have been telling MY story! My husband left me a very short time ago (about one and a half weeks ago) and although it was tough right from the start, I think it has finally started to hit me - I was really, really down today.One thing I noticed is that many of you have been married for years, decades even, and have children. Also, I think all of you have had to deal with affairs. With so much invested in the relationship, it boggles the mind that someone would think the unhappiness was the end of the world and instead of improving their world, they just throw it all away.I want you all to know that my situation is very different. Much to my surprise all this is happening only a few months after our first anniversary, we have no children, and that I know of, there is no OW. So I kind of feel guilty comparing my pain to yours, since you all have invested so much more than me.I feel ashamed because, although I have told very few people about this separation, the general reaction is, "didn't you two just get married?" In fact the wedding isnt even paid off yet. I feel so naive.BUT -- all of you - I know I am only a "kid", but I am a traditional Christian and I had every intention of being married to him forever. I just want you all to know that although our situations are very different, I still empathise with you, and I find it a little shocking that I identify so well with your stories and you identify with mine.I am so glad you all are here (well, not glad, because you went through some awful things and thats why you're here) but what I mean is I am glad we have support in each other.Sorry this is a very incoherent post, like i said I am having a very rotten day. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] luck to all of youA.

tr, I appreciate your efforts, I really do, and I know how hard it is to make such detailed assessments on such little information. Sticking your neck out like that is risky. I don't say too much about my wifes posts (she has now said I can read em again, so I have). But surely most of you must realize the extreme differences between how we portray our lives is significant. There are serious behavioural issues between us, this is not a simply kiss and make-up and all will be well type of marital dysfunction. Maybe I am just a cold-hearted selfish sob, or maybe I am indeed fighting for my emotional survival, there is really no way for any of you to know. The A had nothing to do with her father's illness, nor do I have any relationship with her family (beyond a perfunctory politeness, and a few annual holiday visits. Her mother is a highly critical person, and has been on her H back (and daughters) all their lives (yeah big surprise huh). It was from her mother I "rescued" my wife, and devoted myself to restoring her self-esteem, of telling her someone believed in her. Unfortuneately I didn't realize the emotional toll that would take on me, and I lost myself in the process. The dyanmics of my wife and I are complex TR, we both came from very dysfunctional families, and are temperamentally quite different as well. I have spent many years trying to figure it all out, and mostly have, and the truth is grim. I do not dislike my wife, she is a good woman, but the problems are real, and are not going to just go away by playing nice. I do give her support TR, but it is disrupted by her anger and demands. I could go into a long boring post about how whatever I do is not good enough, and how unfair it is to say I am not there for her...cause I am. But it is true I do not meet her expectations in this regard as she would like, and it causes friction. I feel like I am on trial for how good I "comfort". And it is true she is a much better caregiver in stuff like this than I am, but she judges me by how she would do it. Factor in the regular blowups over A related issues, and you have a disastorous emotional atmosphere for thinker, I feel terrible for her, it is so unfair for her.

Hey SNLIf you really feel this is unfair for your wife THEN GET OUT OF HER LIFE! Simple very simple. Move on down the road to your next unlucky victim. And please stop with the bs about giving a damn about your W and her feelings. No one buys it here ya know and it's really insulting the intelligence of everyone on this site.[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: KalGrl ]

Take what you read and do what you want with it. H has not been there for me as a H all the time. But I am not going to go into what he said or she said. What for?I am sick of the verbal statements H says to me. Criticism is not very admirable. H was not a saint of a H, and I was not a saint of a W. I still love him, and he doesn't love me. Have had a stressful day today, talked with my MIL this morning. She needed someone to talk to. Went to my moms this evening to see how things are going, and she is now stating to me she is stressed out and the effect this is having on her body. Asked me to watch dad for her sometime next week so she can go shopping and chill out and buy new shoes. Said sure anytime, get our schedules together. I hate this affair crap. I hate my H for having an affair and the other thing that bothers me is when I was at the UofM Hospital with mom and dad I asked about AIDS. The new revised info. is that it can take 15 years to show up. In nursing I learned 10 years. My H had sex with this promiscuous woman who had sex in college, sex into her 10th year of marriage and then sex again with my H. Who in the h*ll knows what she has swimming inside of her. This woman suggested to my H to go to a hotel, and of course my H said yes. Now don't tell me this is a honorable woman. No one made her go into a private room while married and have sex with her first lover. No one made her pull her panties down. Same with my H, no one made her take her clothes off, she did it willing. Same with my H, no one made him take his underwear off, he did it willing. This hurts so much that he let a woman touch his private parts while being married. I have had no one but my H. It hurts like H*LL. They met 5 or 6 times during the time H was out in her state. And of course everytime was quite sexual. How can a person say this is a good moral honorable person with the history she has had. When she called me to tell me she was not going to respond to my husbands voicemails anymore, I asked her if she learned from her first affair, she said no. I asked why did you play with my H and she didn't know. Asked her other question and she didn't know. Brilliant person, has all the answers! IQ of maybe 30? Her counselor told her there is something mentally wrong with her, her sister has mental problems, and her father has mental problems. My H still loves this woman, and does not love me. Sure as the mother of his children, but nothing else. Seems to not make sense, when this OW is way out of morality. Sorry to vent tonight, am upset, with all I had to deal with today. H being critical of me today, stress of parents, stress of affair, and didn't get really any paperwork done. That is left up to me to do too, and I just couldn't sit and concentrate. It is piling up and I feel overwhelmed. I feel used, and unloved, and uncared for, and a very ugly person. Told H go to the OW and get on with his life. She is the only one he has ever loved, in boards have read. Go and have your fun H and leave me. Vows mean nothing, marriage means nothing. Well, enough before it gets really ugly.

TR is right definitely cast iron. ANNA[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

Anna, I have cast iron skillets, or stainless steel - which one would be more effective?Yes, he would be a good H, but you know what he did talk about being a alien last night. We saw on TV 'Are aliens in our country?' or something like that. When we were dating he would kidingly say he is a alien. Maybe there is some truth to it. Then he said our kids are 1/2 alien. I just told him I would love them the same H and the kids. ThornedRose - Yes, I am embarrassed to attend the church we have been with for around 10 years. The pastors know that H had an affair, when we were counseling with them I think 2 or 3 times, they asked H if he had sex with the OW. He flat out said no, so he lied. Maybe there would be some help there, but the step to go into those doors is almost unbearable. The other thing, is the church is not that close to home, so it was time consuming to do outside activities with the group of people there. Most of the people live nearer the church than us. So at this time, I think it would be nice to try a church in our area. Yes, this may be a cop out, I know! My H step grandfather died and the pastor of the church, grandfather cleaned as a janitor, did grandpas funeral service. We also maintain the churches boiler. I thought maybe this would be a good place to start. I have become to know Father John, and thought maybe I will give it a try. Would like to get into a womens bible study. Or if H was willing, to do a couples bible study. When H started dating me, I was in a womens bible study called the 'Navigators'. It was fulfilling to read the scripture and learn the passages. Its been a long time since I have actually sat down and read the bible. Especially going through this lousy last year with H affair. What you said about H not having a father to know what it feels like to lose a loving parent is probably true! Don't know why it didn't hit me to think that way. I guess I can be more understanding now, that emotionally he won't be with me cause he doesn't know how it feels. Wish he did have a loving father that he knew would be there for his ballgames, plays, athletic events, school awards and etc. My dad was a hard worker, but he did attent our piano recitals, (I am a twin so we did things together - fraternal boy and girl), my mom got me on a baseball team, dressed me up as a boy and I was able to play a few games, until someone told. In the neighborhood, I was a good ballplayer. Anyways, H may have issues dealing with not having a father. I guess I will be more understanding and try to be patient. You seem to have a great deal of knowledge and comfort in your words. Thanks.

SNL- I responded to your comments in my post
to you--to repsect Thinkers thread..
THinker -Anna, I have cast iron skillets, or stainless steel - which one would be more effective?TR- Cast Iron...LOL..
Thinker- Yes, he would be a good H, but you know what he did talk about being a alien last night. We saw on TV 'Are aliens in our country?' or something like that. When we were dating he would kidingly say he is a alien. Maybe there is some truth to it. Then he said our kids are 1/2 alien. I just told him I would love them the same H and the kids. TR- Good Response [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Thinker - Yes, I am embarrassed to attend the church we have been with for around 10 years. The pastors know that H had an affair, when we were counseling with them I think 2 or 3 times, they asked H if he had sex with the OW. He flat out said no, so he lied. Maybe there would be some help there, but the step to go into those doors is almost unbearable. TR-Understandable, that it would be difficult but still no reason for "you" to be embarassed. (sounds like you might be trying to be responsible
for feelings that are his) Have you by chance read
the boook Boundries??? It explains more in detail
about this..Thinker -The other thing, is the church is not that close to home, so it was time consuming to do outside activities with the group of people there. Most of the people live nearer the church than us. So at this time, I think it would be nice to try a church in our area. Yes, this may be a cop out, I know! TR- No, actually, this isn't a cop out, it is
quite understandable to want to be closer to a
Church to be more active..not just in the classes,
but also to have a support group which is closer..
Call around to some of the local churches and see
what they offer..some have alot of activties not
just for adults, but for youth as well..Thinker- Would like to get into a womens bible study. Or if H was willing, to do a couples bible study. When H started dating me, I was in a womens bible study called the 'Navigators'. It was fulfilling to read the scripture and learn the passages. Its been a long time since I have actually sat down and read the bible. Especially going through this lousy last year with H affair.TR- Find one for yourself, even if H doesn't go..
it will bring you comfort..and maybe he could find
a mens' bible study..that would interest him..and
give you both the support you need..allow God to
grow both of you seperately..and then may be sit
down together and share what you are learning??This is something, I struggled with in my own marriage..I wanted to go to church, and study,
and grow spiritually, H, did not..didn't even
like me going w/out him (out of fear I'd meet someone else,and leave)my understanding of
spirtual matters was that he was supposed to be the leader..and totally responsible for spiritual
growth..and yes, he was responsible to a point,
but, if he fails to lead..then, I become responsible..because it is my personal relationship with Christ.another way to look at it would be like with your children..remember when they were babies, and you
had to do everything for them? as they grew up
you taught them to do things for themselves..to be
responsible for themselves..but, if you never
teach them or they never learn..then stay emotional babies..totally dependant on you..
which isn't healthy..for you or them..and
when they grow up and marry..they will most likely
marry someone who will be a "parent" figure to them..and when one of them either gets tired of
being the parent, or tired of being treated like a child..it causes conflict..because they either
want the other to become responsible "adults"
or they want to start being responsible for themselves as adults, and be treated as such.
(as my stbxh, has said to me..YOU ARE JUST FREE WHITE AND 21 HUH???) Like he is my dad..I guess,
some call this an MLC,(or second childhood) but,
I think in realty..it's more..they are for the
first time, growing up emotionally..and learning
how to be responsible adults..learning something
they didn't when they were children..
(this is how I have come to understand my own growth through all of this..understanding the
dynamics of abuse, and how I was taken from being
a baby, to an adult in a moments time when my father molested me, I didn't get the chance to go
through the emotional growth of childhood..But, I
have started looking to God at being the parent
I never had..and allowed Him to heal me..(which
IMHO, explains the emotions felt during an Affair
going on during this time, it's like you are
experiencing these intense emotions for the very
first time emotionally on an adult level,and trying to make sense of them, as most ppl did
during their teenage years)Thinker-What you said about H not having a father to know what it feels like to lose a loving parent is probably true!TR- looking at what I said above, and knowing that
your husbands, father left when he was so young..he was forced into the adult male role at 4 yrs old..not being given the childhood, and teen
years to learn those things..yes, he lived them..
but he was for all practical purposes emotionally
still 4 years old..in his understanding of adult relationships..trying to function as he felt
adults should function..(just my humble opinion, from what I have learned about myself)Thinker- Don't know why it didn't hit me to think that way. TR- Because, you've never experienced it..not
that there is anything wrong w/ that..Thinker-I guess I can be more understanding now, that emotionally he won't be with me cause he doesn't know how it feels.TR- And this is good, for you too..because it
removes a hurt from you, thinking he is being
cold and callous, for not being there, the way
you need him to be..Thinker- Wish he did have a loving father that he knew would be there for his ballgames, plays, athletic events, school awards and etc. TR- I wish he could have to..as he probably does
as well..Thinker-My dad was a hard worker, but he did attent our piano recitals, (I am a twin so we did things together - fraternal boy and girl), my mom got me on a baseball team, dressed me up as a boy and I was able to play a few games, until someone told. In the neighborhood, I was a good ballplayer. TR- Sounds like they loved you..

Thinker- Anyways, H may have issues dealing with not having a father. I guess I will be more understanding and try to be patient. TR- and maybe give him time to heal and grow-up
emotionally..even though this will be very painful..as he struggles alone..although you can
be his friend..as you also grow and learn more
about yourself.. Thinker-You seem have a great deal of knowledge and comfort in your words. TR- Hope what I have shared has been helpful..as it's been through my own growth that I have learned these things..and had hoped my own stbhx
could have also learned these things..but, that
is not the case..and in many ways, he is still
emotionally/spiritually a child,who has no desire to learn..or even try to comprehend..

Is the title of the Book 'Boundaries'? Who is the author? Sounds like a book to read. Don't read much on the boards, get too upset. With being molested by your father at a young age has taken its tole on you. Here is the man that you trusted, looked up to and wanted to be there for all your achievements. To be daddy's little girl and to do this. This is tough stuff. My friend was molested by two of her brothers. She is having a hard time with triggers, one was in a sheep barn she was molested. When she sees sheep or looks at wool, she becomes edgey and nervous.
When she used to smell the after shave they wore, that was a trigger. You must have a lot of triggers, but it seems you are under control with God's help. H came and laid next to me on the bed. I am a hard worker and trying to pay bills with what money we have. I am the worry wort of the family. Laid down to relieve brain of stress of bill paying. H put arms around me and we talked a little. I get upset with the conversation when it goes, why couldn't we be friends, good friends. What could be different if we were friends and not married? What if we were brother & sister living in the same house, after a spouse dies, what would be different. I went into the intimate conversations, the intimate feelings, the intimate disclosure, and etc. He doesn't get it. So TR I don't see any future for us. H basically wants out. I told him would be nice to have some positive feedback to say this marriage would be nice. Instead he goes into the negative of this marriage and to be separated. He can do what he does now without being married. Except for the sex and intimate talks. He said he will always be my friend. So there is your answer, a friend and move on.

Thinker-I never got to build that trust with my
father..the SA started when I was 2 or
3...so I've never known what a father's
love is..it was all I knew..and understood
about male/female relationships..and then
verbal abuse as I got older..and then
physical..all causing my own set of dysfunctions
and fears that I have had to grow through..and
learn from..it's only been recently that I have
been able to feel safe enough in my own home
at night to sleep w/ the light out..and I'm almost
38 yrs old.. It hasn't been an easy road, nor a
short one..I was in counseling years ago, but stopped when I really should have continued..I thought at the time, that just admitting that
it happened..and being able to tell someone
was enough..but,about 4 years ago I began to see and understand the triggers between my past and my present..But, even then I didn't know what to
do..so I kinda fumbled around trying to figure
it out..then 3 yrs ago a friend sent me The Wounded Heart..and I was able to truly begin
the healing process..both emotionally and spiritually..and I told my stbxh, I was changing..
and that I didn't think he would like the changes..a lot of anger came out (my rebelling against his control) like a teenager rebelling against their parents (something I never did with
my own parents, out of fear) trying to learn how to be independant, and learn to trust my own gut instincts, and decisions..has been weird..yet empowering--but it caused major conflict in the
marriage..because I no longer wanted or needed
a father figure, I needed to be treated w/ respect, and as an adult..something stbxh wasn't willing or didn't know how to give..and wasn't willing to learn..(imho) sounds kind of like what is happening in your marriage..One book that really helped me..that I
would recommend for your friend is
The Wounded Heart, By Dr. Dan B. Allender
There are also others..but this one helped
get me started..And Boundries is by Dr's Henry Cloud, and
John Townsend

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by ThornedRose:

THinker -Anna, I have cast iron skillets, or stainless steel - which one would be more effective?TR- Cast Iron...LOL..
<hr></blockquote>TR is right definitely cast iron. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ANNA

Thinker,I don't read your or SNL's post very often. SNL is just too long winded for my short attention span. SNL could be my STBX in so many ways, just not by your words but his all so.The one thing you said I wanted to address was going to church. I left the congergation we as a family attended for over 18 yrs. It hurts too much for me to go, no one was unking, but they as a congergation, or the leadership was no there for me but it is a double hurt, it is hard for to go where I was part of a couple of so very long. Our church was very much a part of our life, I din't lose just my marriage, I lost my home. Becasue of my feelings my sons, especailly my OS has suffered greatly. I should had sucked up & kept on going, now well he has problems that might had happened anyway but I took his main support system away from him.Just wanted you to know I know how you feel.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>She has something better than I have to offer. I wish I knew what it was, she is not a morally good woman, doesn't believe in working, uses another mans money to get what she wants, then goes back to her husband like nothing happened.<hr></blockquote>The only thing that she 'has' that you don't - is the ability to help him "feel" again - it is called "hormones". I believe he is questioning everything about his life - because of the "hormonal" feeling he had - he is just a natural thinker and not a natural feeler.I do hope you find a church that will give you some support, and keep you nourished in the word - because this is just a difficult time - and we need all the help we can get! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Also.... I know he has betrayed you terribly, but I just have a feeling that you probably have plenty of time before getting a lawyer. See what happens after he begins working with Steve Harley.Another thing... I know S-N-L has to be truly convinced that the MB principles work before he will do them whole-heartedly. Keep up your plan A, and always be honest with him. Be level-headed, but don't be afraid to share issues that you are dealing with - re: father. I suspect he will have good suggestions as decisions need to be made - he is a very good thinker - just not a great "feeler".Take Care!
TNT

Thinker,My advice to you is this: keep counseling with the Harleys and do what they suggest. They have more experience and are more objective in these matters of what to do next. Also, you should discuss the idea of the attorney with them prior to doing it (I did).Thinker, you are stressed and frustrated to the max. I really do understand how you feel, too. All I can say is this - please try to take the pressure off of yourself. You know, we have all tried all of these things you are doing - to rationalize with the WS, to present information to them about why we as the BS and current marriage partner are the better choice, statistics on affairs and second marriages, etc. The bottom line is that SNL is the only one who will ultimately decide if he is going to come back to the marriage or not. None of the things you are doing, other than changing to become a better marriage partner by implementing MB techniques, are going to help.I loved the book Tough Love, as it describes the WS as feeling "trapped" in the marriage. No doubt, SNL's posts portray his perception of feeling trapped. Turn your focus off of your marriage and onto building the life you want for yourself, and follow the advice of Jenn and Steve - they won't steer you wrong.I ended up divorced, because my exH would not give up the OW and did indeed marry her a couple months after our divorce. I did everything I could to influence those things that I COULD CONTROL. You CAN NOT control what SNL will do or what he thinks. You can control your reaction. Fight for YOURSELF. realize you can only do so much to save the marriage by yourself, and you are doing the right things, Thinker. But, in all of this, do NOT neglect and drain yourself. Let me repeat again: Thinker, you can not control SNL's thoughts or actions. It is time to focus on THINKER - your physical and emotional health. If he won't do the work, then he won't, but you CAN. You can build a better and more emotinally satisfying life for yourself, despite all that has happened.Know that other BS's have been where you are now. No matter how our marriages ended - reconciliation or not - we have survived, endured and eventually thrived, again. YOU can, too!{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Thinker}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Desiree

TrustnTrue - Yes he did have a hormonal high with the other woman. Who wouldn't with what she offered to my H? He lusted for her, and with this being her 2nd physical affair, she has the experience to know what a man wants. As you can tell I hate this woman!Yes, the hurt to go to the church is there. Yes we went as a family, a secular family of husband and wife and 4 kids. Four kids who made their confirmation, and enjoyed sunday school and etc. I can't show my face there again, at least right now. That is why I feel I need to go to another church. My feelings are going to be hard to manage if someone comes up and says, we haven't seen you in awhile. Where is your husband? That is going to hurt big time! Especially to look Pastor Jerry or Pastor Drex in the eyes and they ask how things are going? Knowing my husband was able to lie to them right in the pastors office about not having sex with the other woman. He was able to look at the pastors eyes and say no. What a liar!Roll me Away - Yes I have to work on myself. H is going to do what he wants to do. I am stressed out quite a bit. Hope the next year will prove to be a better year. Life is hard, Life is difficult, Life is not verymuch fun, Life is becoming more miserable everyday. H and I went on service calls, he griped at me while I was driving the van on service call. As it turned out, I missed the exit to take, and there was a massive traffic jam on that exit. So we went around the traffic jam through side roads and ended up where we had to go. We talked a bit about his short temper, and he said he was sorry for getting upset with me. He is short tempered with me quite a lot, a recognizes the issue.We went out to dinner, and then to the movies. At the parking lot at dinner, we started to talk about his dad. His dad is ill, due to drinking excessively, and smoking. Anyways, I talked a bit about his dad and mentioned the affair his father had. That somehow ended up in talking about his affair. I couldn't eat. So we walked out of the restaurant and walked to the bookstore for about an hour. I got 2 books, and calmed down. We went back to eat dinner and then to the movies. Little triggers like that send me feeling low and I tried to not let any tears appear, and they started flowing. This is not easy, and it stinks. We stopped to get gas, and H came in a sat in the drivers seat while tank filling up. He looked at me and my thoughts went to H sitting in the rental car in Arizona (where OW lives) and she in the seat next to him. The way he looked at me made me think of him seeing her. H asked what I was thinking and I had to tell him. He didn't say much. I wonder and wonder and keep saying to myself, this is driving me nuts. Anyways, part of the problem is it took H 5 months later to tell me it was physical, and to know he lied for that amount of time is insane. Thanks for all your help.

thinker,You know, you and your H remind me a lot of me and my H. If you ever want to email me just let me know.Keep your chin up!love and light,Jacky

Nina - if you have the time, maybe e-mail would be good. To have someone else's viewpoint and to maybe learn from you two. Last night was an nice night with H. We went to the movies and we didn't LB, some affection was expressed. But thoughts of her appeared in my mind with the events we did. Feels like at times I am going nuts. Partly too many things to think of, too many things to accomplish, and too many demands on our time. I felt guilty going out, should of tried to get business paper work done, try to get things done at home. But I said, what the heck, lets try to have some fun. Need to go to my mom and dads, to see what is going on there. Try to support mom and go there every 2 days. This is so HARD, seeing ones parent deteriate before your eyes. It is hard for mom and I feel for her. Gave her a big hug last time I was there, told her she is doing a good job, I am there for her. I guess time to go for a walk with the dog. Need to keep in shape (do for myself) and talk to God and think. I find walking a relief of some sort. With the surgery on my L knee, was unable to walk for exercise. Dr. gave me okay to start walking slowly and increase distance. Used to walk 3-6 miles a day. Keep in touch.

thinker,I have a few questions.Did SNL sleep with you after he slept with Ms. [censored], without you knowing about his affair?Is he religious? Does he believe in God and Jesus?Thanks for answering them.Take care,ANNA[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

Hi Thinker,I haven't said anything up to now because I guess I just don't feel comfortable when both the WS and BS are lurking in on eachother's business.I feel for you. I also feel like you guys could be me and my X. It's scary how alike this all gets to be and I know he doesn't think he's justifying his behavior, but I believe he is. My X did the same thing. He talked like a moral boyscout thruout our marriage, then after I found out about all his cheating, there was no such thing as right or wrong anymore, no such thing as black and white, EVERYTHING was gray. Sound familiar (SNL-"an affair is just a thing that happens")?If anything, I believe it would be good for your kids to continue in church just so they learn about right and wrong, good and bad, build their character. All this GRAY crap is what they get taught in the schools now and it needs to be countered. God's influence is strong if you keep it in their lives, and even if they stray - the first time something goes wrong in their lives, they'll come back. And of course there are a million reasons for YOU to be close to God.Keep on. I know it's so hard and it's the worse pain in the world when the person you love keeps tearing your heart out, and I have so much sorrow for you. It won't be like this forever and people (like us) are there for you when you need to cry. Take care.

Hi thinker,My email addy is jackinoz16@hotmail.com.I will be checking my email regularly, and will get back to you as soon as I can (moving house today!!!) But I will make it a priority to check up on you.Love and lots of healing light,Jacky

anna..... have a few questions.Did SNL sleep with you after he slept with Ms. [censored], without you knowing about his affair?snl...That is not a very nice way of characterizing someone, but to answer your question this has been a very hard area. I stopped any physical contact with my w when I realized I was feeeling love for the ow, long before we met. But then you need to understand I had been emotionally withdrawn for years, were physical at most a few times a year, and I had a seperate bedroom last 5 years (an arrangement my wife was content with). After discovery it was up to my wife, the issue being what are my obligations to her as a H vs my feelings for her as a man. I am very conflicted about it. anna....Is he religious? Does he believe in God and Jesus?snl...Yes.[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]

SNL,I am still unclear of something. Here's my question.Did you ever, even one time, after you had sex with Ms. Pure and Innocent, have sex with your wife without her knowledge of you having sex with another person? I would appreciate a yes or no so there won't be any misunderstanding.Thanks.ANNA[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

thinker-I've been following your thoughts (and those of s-n-l) for a little while now. It is scary but the thoughts of your H seem to mirror what my W is saying here 7 months after d-day. I can't believe after 18 years that I have finally come to realize that she had given up on improving our marriage (at least how she saw it) years ago. I didn't really suspect the problems were this deep.You mentioned you get angry thinking about OW. For me, the flashbacks that bother me the most are not those of the OM with my W but rather of the time, energy and commitment my W made to OM. Is this maybe a more accurate description of how you are feeling and what you are angry with? I feel that we would be in a much different place if my W had put half the energy into our relationship that she did with OM in trying to meet him on the side, in the way she tried to keep it all secret, in the way that she gave him time with our kids. This makes me more sad and angry than anything else. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] Here's hoping we can find the patience to ride this roller coaster a little longer while we work on ourselves and let our spouses figure things out.
SG

Nina too - H and I did have sex after the affair. I found out in Feb. 2001 about the affair, but did not find out until June or July of 2001 that it was physical affair as well. We went to Retrouville weekend (marriage seminar) in April. H did have sex with me, and I thought well he didn't have sex. It would of been nice to know that he did have sex with her to protect myself. H states he did not have intercourse, but they did everything else. He feels he has not been contaminated by her. So yes he was dishonest with me and should of been truthful. I probably would of refused sex, until he had an AIDS test. You never know what is swimming in the OW. With this being her 2nd physical affair while being married to the same H. Thank you for your e-mail. Will respond today, tomorrow will be gone, working on the election, full day. H met me, while I was active with the Navigators. It is a christian based bible study group for women. Yes, H believes in God and Jesus. But what hurts is the belief that what he did was not for sex, but for connection. He says it was biology. I didn't have classes like that in college. Yes, we married in a catholic church, and are practicing Lutheran now. H enjoyed teaching the middle age junior high kids at church. He found these kids to be quite interesting. I don't know exactly what his religious beliefs are for sure. I find it hard to think of himself as a christian, and to commit adultery, and she committed adultery 2 times during her marriage. How can one consider themselves a christian with adultery?SprayerGuy - What hurts is that H sees no guilt or remorse about the affair. It is like it should happen in all marriages and accept it and move on. He does feel bad about the hurt he caused me and the family. As far as OW family knowing anything, we don't know. Cause OW was adamant about not telling anyone about this affair. That is where I am hurt too. She called and threatened me with suicide if we were to tell her Husband. This is a sane person talking, and loving christian values? She didn't care about my feelings or the pressure she was putting on me? Probably cause she will be labeled with a big RED 2 on her forhead for 2 physical affairs for sure and possibly 3. I had an investigator, that said there might be 3, but 2 for sure. So the anger or hurt, is how can one do this and be married? How can people hurt someone else so distastefully? What about Gods point of view, what about christianity, what about seeing the higher ground (heaven), what about vows, what about morals, and what about family? Seems both H and OW were quite selfish and only thought of themselves, and to heck with anything else. Neglect and rejection are so strong here, I have been told it takes time! I would love to have trust, and get rid of the rejection feeling. I have dreams almost every night of doing something awful to the OW. I hate these dreams of doing awful things to her, and sometimes wonder if I am going INSANE!!! Counseling with Jennifer said it is part of things not being resolved, and we are not exactly on the path. So I am trying to solve issues within myself by talking to GOD on my walks, and trying to throw these stupid dreams away in my dreams. Went to physical therapy and found it to be a time for me. Help heal the knee after surgery, and found that the PT technicians were very kind and helpful. Doing PT for 6-8 weeks. My technician (Mike) was very kind and sorry for the pain he caused me. Needed to evaluate today,and take measurements of flexing and etc. Mike said knee will be sore today, take it easy. I am focusing the next 6-8 weeks to get my knee better and hopefully to beable to walk my 3-6 miles a day after PT. Thanks for everyones help.

OK, I will stick my neck out here, seeing as I have alot of experience with manipulators. . . and with self deception and FOO issues, etc. hey, i've done it all, really. . . . [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] thinker,i would go get the sharkiest lawyer I could, and take him for everything he is worth. . . Why? because he is unwilling to make a decision, the decision is to be a husband or not. . . . the only marriages that have a high probability of recovery after an affair is one where the WS takes full responsibility for his/her actions, does not need to justify it, and goes to therapy to understand why it happened, so as to understand the past to prevent a future recurrance.Second, because you love him, and wish to set him free with just the shirt on his back. The favorable financial settlement will constitute restitution for all the emotional abuse he has heaped on you for not liking himself, and not being able to stand up for what he wants, but is trying to get you to do his dirty work.Third, he is not a true religious person, as he does not really follow the ideals with his actions. I personally abstain from religion because of people like that, Osama bin Ladin is a perfect example, who use religion to condone mean actions or to perpetuate the action because of the perceived forgiveness with confession.Fourth, he obviously was not taught correctly by his FOO how to treat family members, and currently, he is too old to learn and improve. His FOO is haunting him, and without a desire to lay these ghosts to rest, there never will be a good person.Fifth, life is OK after divorce, divorce is not your first choice, but a choice, and you may actually regain some happiness, etc. hey, i NEVER thought that the person i married would do a complete 180 after telling me constantly in the beginning that she did not like her FOO values, but she adopted them anyway. I have finally settled on my own personal diagnosis after tremendous amount of research that my X is partly BPD and partly Narcissistic. Now, she will never be good marriage material without lots of therapy, and good luck to her, but i am not worthy of trying to fix someone, nor willing to put up with someone who does not want to fix themselves to be the best they can be.My FOO values are to improve and be the best you can be, and to overcome adversity to be better. My X fears improvement, wants to stay in the status quo, likes excuses and likes to get stuff through woe is me actions. pathetic is my response.sorry, life is too short to stay married to someone who doesn't like life, or himself or his lot in life, when everyone has the power to make their life happy with some internal and external reprogramming.WIFTTy

Thinker,
Before I begin this post, let me first say that I do sympathize greatly with your situation. I have read and followed both yours and SNL's posts and I am sorry you are both so troubled by your circumstances. Your husband has made some bad decisions and is also apparantly in alot of pain over his choices and his future.However, something you said just jumped off the page at me - about how can he be a Christian and be commit adultery? And to say that the OW has had 2 PAs (you mention this in almost every post) so she must not a Christian either. WHOA!What about that old "let he who is without sin cast the first stone..." and "remove the log from your own eye before you attempt to get the speck out of your brothers....." and so on and so on. A sin is a sin and we are all sinners. Everyday. Over and over again. Jesus was the last one to walk this earth who was without sin. I am not justifying what SNL and/or the OW did. You are right to claim that it was immoral, sinful and against God and his laws (not to mention our laws). But, it certainly does not mean he is not a Christian. If our own goodness is what gets us to heaven there aren't going to be very many people up there. God redeems our sin. He takes it and washes us clean. He does it over and over. He will keep doing it. That is what he promises. He loves us that much. We cannot do anything that God cannot redeem. The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith.I think you should go back to church. When people say "where is your H?" Smile and say, I guess he is at home. Or, I am not sure. Or, why don't you call him and ask. Or, we are having some trouble right now, but I needed to be here. Or any one of a dozen truths about where he is.
When the pastor says, "how are you?" Say, not worth a damn, or hanging in there, or day to day, but I need you to pray for me... or whatever you feel like saying. If you aren't at a church that will support you through this **** storm then maybe you do need to look for another. Because that is what the church is for. To hold us and provide strength and love. A church that would shun someone in your situation should be called something other than a church.Again, just my .02
M

Do you have any friends at the church where you formerly attended? If so, go there. You have people there with whom you have a past.I am still attending the church where x and I worshipped. It wasn't always easy to stay. But these people knew me. They cared for me already. I had no emotional energy to use on building new relationships.Will I always stay there? Who knows. But some of those people have stuck with me and prayed for me when the rest of the world marched right on by. They knew what I was like before and they are amazed at the way I've perservered.

thinker,Since your husband reads this thread and has responded to me when I asked you a question, I hope you don't mind me posting to him again.If you mind, let me know and I'll put it on a separate thread.ANNA
sad_n_lonley,I posted to you recently on a separate thread. You didn't respond. I took it as you read it but had no comment. If you don't respond to this one, I'll take it the same way.I am sure you could careless if I or anyone here has respect for you or not but I want you to know the reasons why I have absolutely no respect for you.Incredibly as I write this, I may sound angry but I'm not angry as much as I'm just sickened by your not taking blame for your own actions. My hopes in this post is to knock some sense into you with my words of truth.On another post you said something like this, "My lover and I kept our affair from my wife and her husband because we knew they would control us and ruin it all for us." That is just the sickest way of looking at an affair I can imagine. Your reasons were selfish and were only to try and justify your lust from a woman outside your marriage. Your actions, your reasons, your blame and your post make me want to throw up.You don't even understand how she is feeling about your betrayal. Betrayal like this is almost like raping your wife. You raped her of making decisions to be with a cheater. You weren't just making choices for you but you bullied her into choices with your lies. You took away her right to choose. She did not have a right to choose to kick a husband out who had physical contact with someone else. Most importantly she did not have the information she need to choose to sleep with you or not afterward. She was raped of the right to insure her safety and make sure you didn't get aids or another disease from Ms. Pure and Innocent. You did not give her the choice to say whether she wanted to risk getting sexually transmitted diseases. You weren't just having "physical contact" with this one person, in affect you were being sexually active with everyone she slept with and all their past sexual partners and all the sexual partners past sexual partnes, by the time you add up every person's germs involved you could have had sexual contact with 100's of other people's germs. Then you get even more selfish and greedy by sleeping with your wife without giving her all the information she needs. She deserved and had a right to know what you did. She deserved a say and a choice. This was such a betrayal. You kept this a secret because you didn't want anyone waking you up from your lusty little dream. I am not saying there can not be forgiveness in all this. I just see no remorse at all for your actions. Instead I see you trying so hard to justify your bad choices by rewriting the history of your marriage, by making your wife out to be this munipulative witch that she is by far NOT. You blaming her for so much. I read an article on blame once. It said "People blame others because the load of guilt is too heavy to bear." I think this is you, you come on here searching for validation for the things you did wrong. You try to blame your wife because if you look at the real truth it would be a load of guilt you could not bear. Well, you need to know, you will not be free from the pain and suffering inside you until you face your actions, take blame and confess to everything you did wrong.You may think you are so great for sticking in a marriage when you want out. Sacrificing your happiness. You are putting yourself, your wife and your family through misery because of all this. It's time you be the husband God wants you to be. Sure you are going to counseling but you are not doing anything the counselors says. You are not trying. You are just holding on as long as you can. Before she can forgive you, you need to have full remorse. You need to stop blaming and take responsibility for your actions. You need to see how unfair this was to not give her a choice in whether you wanted a lying, cheating husband. SNL, you need to put your wife first and love her the way a husband is suppose to love his wife.You say you believe in God and Jesus. You say you are responsible for your wife's needs for the rest of your life. Well what she needs is a faithful, loving husband. You think you can support her and give her money, buying yourself a guilt free conscience well you can't.The bible says you are to love your wife as you love your own body. Do you? The bible says you are to love your wife as Christ loves the Church. Do you? The man is suppose to be the spiritual leader in the household. What are you teaching your family as a spiritual leader? Here's a post you did this morning on another MBers thread. It makes you sound like the biggest hypocrite alive. How can you come on MB condemning those who lust and have affairs when you did just that and you aren't taking full responsibility for your own actions. In my opinion you might as well be looking in the mirror and talking to yourself. The reason you have such great insight into this person is because you are so much like the person you are describing.http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=31&t=004937Maybe your wife is right and you used to be a decent person, but you aren't anymore. When I read your posts and you try to figure out who you are by all the psychology bull crap you lay out, I can only think what a waste. Put that time into your marriage. I could careless about the psychology of why you make bad choices. I only know what you are doing is mean, cruel and wrong. You come on here and verbally abuse your wife, the person you are suppose to respect and love as you love your own body. You tell people a skewed view of how she's munipulative and so forth, I see munipulation in almost ever post you present on MB. I can't stand the way you continually treat her. All I want now is for you to wake up and be the husband God wants you to be. Apologize to your wife, SNL, tell her sincerely what you did was wrong and you will not do it again. Be a real man and take responsibility! Get your respect back!ANNAP.S.I have a feeling Ms. Pure and Innocent is on her third or fourth affair right now. I think she also came up with excuses why she didn't want you anymore. I think she tired of you. She wanted something different. You weren't fulfilling her sexually anymore than her husband was. She's now sucking someone else's husband into her poor, misunderstood life. Ruining another marriage as I type. What makes your Ms. Pure and Innocent be any different than the person you described in your post linked above? What makes you any different? That link describes you both.[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by thinker:

I find it hard to think of himself as a christian, and to commit adultery, and she committed adultery 2 times during her marriage. How can one consider themselves a christian with adultery?
<hr></blockquote>

Sorry, but you just hit a cord with me here...

Do you put GOD first In all aspects of your life Thinker?? Do You put what HE wants before what you want??? If Not, then that is Idolatry..
Thou shalt not have any other God's before me..Have you ever Stolen anything?? Even a pen from work?? Stealing--Thou shalt not stealHave you ever looked at Playgirl?? Have you ever lusted over an actor about how good looking he is?? Those thoughts are ALSO adultry!!! They are all SINS!!! No Sin is worse than any other in God's eyes..SIN is SIN!!!! They are all
equal, and do not carry any degrees or which is
worse than any other..When we stand before God and say-- it was just a little white lie..so I wouldn't hurt them..it's still a lie is not??? And God says thou shalt not lie..so how is a lie any less than adultry??
They are part of the same commandments are they
not?? So because someone lies, does that make them
Not a Christian?? I understand that you are hurting..very much..
but, for you to say How can one commit adultry and be a Christian..is way outta line..were ALL Sinners..ALL OF US!!! None of us our perfect, and can fall into any type of sin..As born again Christians we have 2 natures..the old and the new..and as we allow the new nature to grow by studying the Bible and asking God to search our hearts..and cleanse us..we become more
Christ Like...but, if all we do is accept Christ
as our Savior, and don't have any growth..then
our old nature still has predominate control..and that will be strongest in us..but, even with that
we still have the old sin nature..and we will continue to sin..as a Christian, you will be convicted of sin, and should go before God and seek His forgiveness..and He forgives..but that doesn't mean we will never sin again...And just because one says they believe in God
doesn't make them a Christian..even satan believes in God..He knows God exists, but He doesn't put his faith in God..many will do things in the name
of God, and go to church but will not go to heaven..because they never put their faith in
God. They don't have a personal relationship with
Him..So maybe your husband doesn't have that relationship..but please do not lump all
"Christians" into that catagory...

TR,
My post got lost on page 3 of this thread - thanks for repeating my sentiments exactly!
M

Dear Thinker and SNL,I am an old timer, in the process of a divorce after a 20 year marriage, so take this as you will...I am not a marriage survior, but a survivor none the less.I read posts here often, I used to write all the time, but since filing divorce, feel like I am not really entitled to give advice. I am in a new relationship though, and part of the reason I come here is to learn how to do this the right way this time.Like most people here I find SNL's posts to be a whole lotta "fogeese" as one poster said. He seems to be aware of this though, something I give credit to him for...most foggy minded folks will deny that they may not be thinking straight...but to his credit and very open mind he does see it....could this be a bit of light getting in?Ok Thinker...you are the one I want to talk to here...I want to ask you a question. What about Thinker has changed since discovery of this affair? How have you changed you? How have you become a woman that this man wants to spend the rest of your life with?We know why people have affairs, not because the OP is so great, so much better than us, not because they lack morals or have lost their faith in God...they love the way they feel when they are with this person. That's all. This other woman made him her world...there were no sick parents, judgemental church friends, businesses to run. It's not about the sex and how she must just be so great in bed because she has had two affairs. She just gave him attention and made him feel good.I hope I'm not being rude. I understand how crappy all of this feels, but I can look back now with a little different perspective. It feels good to vent here and talk about hitting him upside the head...feels good to have found some other people to commiserate with, but folks, SNL is reading all of this, and I'd be willing to bet he's going back into his shell with every word. We all have to change when something this traumatic happens in our marriages...do I see SNL starting to change in subtle ways...putting his arms around you in bed...intimate talks...understanding when you couldn't eat dinner and going to the book store with you? Am I completley off base here or is this man trying in spite of himself to show you something? If so, be very quiet and watch and listen and you might just see the very start of a sort of healing.I hope so.And Thinker, I know it's hard with sick parents and grown kids and all of that, but remember, he is your husband, take care of him first, I had to learn this the hard way...I hope you don't.allison

Wow, az allison, excellent post!snl and thinker,I have tried every which way to get both of your attention... I've asked direct questions (often ignored) I've reached out (sometimes ignored)... and I've let my own hurt feelings get in the way of the truth -- you have your own lives to live right now, to get through the days which must be some kind of painful process if any of what we see here is an indication.So, here's what I'd like to say: You both are Christians. Pray. Just pray. Don't do anything else. Nothing else. Cry out to God to heal your lives -- separately, together, as a family... I know that's what I'll be doing for you two from now on.May God bless your family.

TR,I understand what you are saying. I can see your point. However, here's another side too. When we are Christians we search our souls and our actions every day. We ask God to forgive us for our sins. He and she may be a Christian but instead of him searching his own soul, I only see him searching for blame on her part. Instead of him "confessing his sins before men" as God ask us to do, I see him continuing in his lies and not taking blame and asking for forgiveness. He comes on here trying to convince the world this is his wife's fault. He may be a Christian but I can see how she finds it hard when he isn't acting much like a Christian. Christians make mistakes but try hard to be Christ like. How is he seeing the things he has done and making amends for these mistakes. I can understand why she is questioning his faith. I don't see him trying to live a Christian life, I only see him defying God's commandments.God does forgive sins but only when we pray, ask for forgiveness, try hard to live as Christ want us to live, and try not live day by day in the same sin.I don't know what's in his heart, but I can see why she struggles with this every day. He needs to get his heart and soul right with God if he is a Christian.Take care Thorned Rose,ANNA

I am an aetheist, so I don't have anyone to forgive me if i screw up, so I try not to hurt others because I have only myself to be responsible to, and the only statement that ever made an impact on me was: The lord helps those who help themselves. So how have each of you helped yourself towards a more fulfilling marriage? If not why not?If you don't want to, then fine, state the goal and move on with your lives. otherwise, you are just scared of facing yourself and your own responsibilities.WIFTTy

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
I am an aetheist, so I don't have anyone to forgive me if i screw up, so I try not to hurt others because I have only myself to be responsible to, and the only statement that ever made an impact on me was: The lord helps those who help themselves. So how have each of you helped yourself towards a more fulfilling marriage? If not why not?If you don't want to, then fine, state the goal and move on with your lives. otherwise, you are just scared of facing yourself and your own responsibilities.WIFTTy<hr></blockquote>Wifty,I'm sure you already know this, but alot of people don't know. The statement you just quoted isn't in the bible, nor is it biblical.Anyway, I have to say, I mean this so very sincerely, a deep sadness came over me as I read your post. I don't know why, I've heard others say they were athiest and didn't get as sad as when I read you say it. Do you ever feel something is missing in your life? Like there's more to life than you know. I think you may. I think I'm sad because I think you are missing the thing that could make you happy. I think some day you will be a Christian. I hope I'm right. Maybe it's because I am so sad by your statement, but someday I hope I come on MB and read an updated post that says you are now a Christian.Well, I am hoping you don't think I am pushing Christianity on you. I don't usually talk to people about the bible or Christ unless they want me to.Take care,ANNAP.S.One more thing regarding your question. As a Christian, since that isn't biblical, I don't see how it applies...[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

Wifty,One more thing, (AGAIN!) in case you or others wonder where the term, "God helps those who help themselves came from." Here's the true verse where it derived from, and one person took the verse and twisted it. As many people believe what they hear a lot of folks, even Christians, forget to research their bibles to see if this is God's actual word. Here's what the bible really said."God helps those who trust in the Lord with all their heart, and lean not on their own understanding"! Proverbs 3:5-6This one statement when read as written says an aweful lot. It is basically saying, When we leave God out of the picture in solving problems, God leaves us to deal with those
problems on our own, and without His help. Also it is saying, we need to lean not on our own feelings inside us, but in the Lord and his teachings.Take care,ANNA[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

AnnaThank you for your kind thoughts, however, lets look at your dilemma this way:How many religions are there currently?
How many have there been since civilization began?When you picked your religion, did you do adequate research to make sure you picked the best one for your needs? Why did you pick yours or say, muslim or buddism?Or did you just blindly go along with the one introduced to you first from your family of origin? <blockquote>quote:<hr> Do you ever feel something is missing in your life? Like there's more to life than you know. <hr></blockquote>Nope. . . i have travelled many parts of the world, some very poor, other very religious. I have been very successful in my two careers, my sports, my exploration of the world, me extracurricular activities, (stuff I can control) I have been to jerusalem, toured the holy lands, etc. I was schooled at a very christian church school. I do believe there was a great philosopher named Jesus, and he had lots of followers. But that does not mean i need an external source for hope or guidance. One can adopt similar basic principles and survive quite nicely.Since people over time through history have used religion as an excuse to promote their interests on others, to "civilize" the non believers, and to kill or fight the different peoples, I do not want to be associated with the political organizations of religion that can be abused for self serving people, and cannot tolerate differences and coexist with different philosophies.This statement is not to say all people are or that there are not good religious people, it is just my position that I don't want that association.lets just leave my view point of religion as it serves its purpose for people who need guidance and explanations for what they need guidance for what they can't control, or can't explain and can't do it themselves, or for some reason require an explanation that they feel comfortable with.The woman i am dating is a very religious person, and I would not do anything to change that, as long as she can accomodate me within her life and respect my viewpoint without having to insist that her viewpoint is correct or the only viewpoint. . .
tom

Wifty,In response to your post.http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=34&t=004906ANNA

anna...I posted to you recently on a separate thread. You didn't respond. I took it as you read it but had no comment. If you don't respond to this one, I'll take it the same way.Snl...I read all the threads addressed to or responding to me, and I think about them all, even kalgrl's (who I am begining to think would happily string me from the nearest tree), I am not always able to respond (only so much time, and occassionally I lose one, I lost a big one to you a couple days ago [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] , I walked away from comp for a minute, my son set down and accidently erased 1 1/2 hr of work grrrrrrrrr). Sometimes I wish we could all go to some kind of MB forum convention for a week, and just talk it all out.anna...I am sure you could careless if I or anyone here has respect for you or not but I want you to know the reasons why I have absolutely no respect for you.snl.... It is true my self-worth is mostly internalized, knowing what I do about the vagaries of human respect.....however, I do care what people think about me, if I assess they are being fair and not just dumping on me. You are a tough critic, and overly judgemental on occassion (IMO), but I sense you are not meanspirited, and are being constuctively critical in your own mind, and that is ok, and I value it.anna...Incredibly as I write this, I may sound angry but I'm not angry as much as I'm just sickened by your not taking blame for your own actions. My hopes in this post is to knock some sense into you with my words of truth.snl...I don't understand what you mean by blame. I have never done anything but take responsibility for my actions. What does taking blame look like? anna...On another post you said something like this, "My lover and I kept our affair from my wife and her husband because we knew they would control us and ruin it all for us." That is just the sickest way of looking at an affair I can imagine. Your reasons were selfish and were only to try and justify your lust from a woman outside your marriage. Your actions, your reasons, your blame and your post make me want to throw up.snl...It was not lust anna, if lust drove me I would have had an affair long long ago. As for secrecy, that is just the truth, it is the reason affairs (and lots of things people do) are secret, to avoid interference. I suspect you have deliberately kept things from people too, cause you did not want interference, it is a normal human behaviour.anna...You don't even understand how she is feeling about your betrayal. Betrayal like this is almost like raping your wife. You raped her of making decisions to be with a cheater. You weren't just making choices for you but you bullied her into choices with your lies. snl....It is hard to respond to such rhetoric anna. It is not real, rape is rape, it is a violent personal crime. Part of the difficulty in dealing with marital disharmony is the inflammatory language used. The emotions are real, but the realities are mundane. There is nothing particularly noteworthy about the breakup of a pair relationship. It is an experience most have, often several times (or more. And always involves some amount of "betrayal" (for the simple reason the breakup generally will not occur without some shift of focus away from the partner). Some would say but it is MARRIAGE, that really makes no difference. The reality is people experience grief and a time of dislocation, and they continue on with life, often bonding with someone else, living happily ever after. There is no good outcome from rape. In fact if one removed the security and financial issues from divorce, it would probably be considerably less noteworthy alltogether. anna...You took away her right to choose. She did not have a right to choose to kick a husband out who had physical contact with someone else.snl...Yes she did. I did not deny (except briefly) I had actually met the ow, I just refused to discuss it, she was free to take whatever action she wanted as a consequence. I also told her I would tell her all the truths in due time. No one owns anyone Anna. I have no obligation to tell anyone anything if I so choose not too. I told my w the truth cause I thought it fair to do so, I did it in my way in my time, and I am willing to experience the consequences of that action, what more can you ask of a human being?anna...Most importantly she did not have the information she need to choose to sleep with you or not afterward. She was raped of the right to insure her safety and make sure you didn't get aids or another disease from Ms. Pure and Innocent. snl.....I agree with the absolute right of someone to know these things. My w suspected the truth, I did everything but verify her suspicions, and I did not want any physical contact with her, she insisted, and she insisted quite forcefully. But be that as it may, I accept your chastisement that I did not give her all the facts so as to remove any doubt/hope she may have clung to re this matter. In a perfect world none of this would happen. In a perfect world every marriage would be "right" and happy and nurturing too, but the world is not perfect, and stuff is not always handled perfectly. But I am comfortable, my w willingly chose to hope there had been no physical contact, when she knew it was just denial. So yes, I decieved by ommission, but I did nothing to encourage her, or seduce her. I would have preferred she did not want physical contact with me. I told her I did not want it with her, but she would not take no for an answer, so must share at least in part with the outcome.anna...I am not saying there can not be forgiveness in all this. I just see no remorse at all for your actions. Instead I see you trying so hard to justify your bad choices by rewriting the history of your marriage, by making your wife out to be this munipulative witch that she is by far NOT. You blaming her for so much.snl....Once again I do not blame my w for anything, anymore than I blame myself, both are useless focus.....instead I seek to understand who I am, who she is, what this marriage is or is not, and whether it should continue....to that end by necessity I must discuss many things of a conflictual nature. This does not mean I think my wife is a witch. But the truth is she has for many years been an angry, critical, emotionally neglectful woman, who regularly attacked my self-worth, and said she wanted to divorce me...good or bad, those are just facts. It is why this happened (and vice versa re me from her viewpoint), that I am not just going to ignore. It needs to be understood.anna...I read an article on blame once. It said "People blame others because the load of guilt is too heavy to bear." I think this is you, you come on here searching for validation for the things you did wrong. snl...Once again anna, I do not seek, nor do I need, validation. I have no intention of doing what anyone or everyone thinks I should in any regard, be it staying or leaveing, or anything in-between. Rationalist simply do not function that way, we literally do not care what anyone thinks, we only care about truth and understanding, and what is the better argument.anna...You try to blame your wife because if you look at the real truth it would be a load of guilt you could not bear. Well, you need to know, you will not be free from the pain and suffering inside you until you face your actions, take blame and confess to everything you did wrong.snl....I am human, and do experience from time to time feelings I would probably label guilt. But they play little role in the conduct of my life. Guilt is a poor reason to make decisions, or choose actions. It's primary use IMO is to get your attention, and encourage review of actions. Guilt may be "justified" but it can also be false. I feel very little guilt re this because I had been a loyal and faithful husband, I know I bear my w no ill-will, and my intentions for the ow were honorable (which is why my w is so distressed, she knows I am not capable of flings or using people, she knows I made committments arising out of legitimate feelings). That is the problem anna, what does one do? If I can just "forget" the ow, and write her off as a no-good person, and my behaviour as lust....what does that say about me? And worse what does it say about any feelings for my w, are they also shallow, and I am just using her? You cannot have it both ways methinks. anna...You may think you are so great for sticking in a marriage when you want out. Sacrificing your happiness. You are putting yourself, your wife and your family through misery because of all this. snl....I do not think I am great, I am just a man trying to find his way out of a very confusing forest. I am not putting my w and family through anything, it is just life anna, are you suggesting I just lie? Put on a happy face, pretend I have no issues....to make their lives happier....is that what you would do? Are you emotionally honest anna, do you reveal your deepest feelings, or do you gaurd some?anna...It's time you be the husband God wants you to be. snl...I don't know what God wants for me, and you can be even less sure...right?anna....Sure you are going to counseling but you are not doing anything the counselors says. snl....I assume you realize you can't know this, but for the record (once again) I am do appropriate things, I am not doing everything folks would want.....why? Cause I am human, Im have a will, I am not a robot.anna....You are not trying. You are just holding on as long as you can. Before she can forgive you, you need to have full remorse. snl...If that is true, then I will never be forgiven. I made choices, they were in some ways the right choices, in other ways not, there is no possible way to paint this black and white.anna...You need to stop blaming and take responsibility for your actions. You need to see how unfair this was to not give her a choice in whether you wanted a lying, cheating husband. SNL, you need to put your wife first and love her the way a husband is suppose to love his wife.snl....Do you mean just "do it", no matter how I feel, just do what others say I should? How does one do that anna, how do you do it? Don't you do what you want?anna...You say you believe in God and Jesus. You say you are responsible for your wife's needs for the rest of your life. Well what she needs is a faithful, loving husband. You think you can support her and give her money, buying yourself a guilt free conscience well you can't.snl.....Are you saying I don't have any responsibility to provide for her (implied by your use of word buying in place of my word responsible). As for her need for a faithful loving H, the problem is one cannot provide those things by choice. I can only choose to care for her, one does not need to be married to care. I cannot choose to romantically love her, that is beyond cognitive action, and it is that I seek to understand.anna....The bible says you are to love your wife as you love your own body. Do you? The bible says you are to love your wife as Christ loves the Church. Do you? The man is suppose to be the spiritual leader in the household. What are you teaching your family as a spiritual leader? snl...This is not the place to engage in a religious discussion, I have done so here and there a fair amount allready. I agree though if you are bonded in a oneflesh union with a spouse, the issue is is that what we have, or ever had. A marriage license is just a piece of paper, and vows made without understanding and requisite intent also are meaningless. Too many people approach this subject legalistically, and make the secular act of state sanctioned cohabitation (ie marriage) equate spirtitual marriage...it does not. Many people who think they are married, are not, they only have a piece of paper IMO. I realize that is a contentious position to take, but it is the only one I can take that reconcilles the facts I observe all around me, with what the Bible says about marriage, and my understanding of freewill.anna...Here's a post you did this morning on another MBers thread. It makes you sound like the biggest hypocrite alive. How can you come on MB condemning those who lust and have affairs when you did just that and you aren't taking full responsibility for your own actions. snl...I didn't lust anna. You are free to assess I am just denying. But if you insist on calling attraction to someone lust, then I married my wife simply cause I lusted for her, is that why you married your H.....lust? As for advice I give, if we all had to be perfect to give advice, guess there would not be much advice given. I speak mostly from a behavioural viewpoint, not a moral/ethical one....I deal in pragmatic actions and consequences. Whether I have any good advice people must assess for themselves, however that does not make me a hypocrit.anna...Maybe your wife is right and you used to be a decent person, but you aren't anymore. When I read your posts and you try to figure out who you are by all the psychology bull crap you lay out, I can only think what a waste. snl.....You see no value in introspection? No value in unraveling such important issues as the psychology behind human bonding? No value in contemplating the mental health consequences of forcing oneself to behave in opposition to, ones feelings? Even the matrital gurus pretty much advise against sacrificial marriage...do you disagree? If that is true, then I must find out wihether my w and I are enthusiastic about each other, cause if either of us is not, is just "doing it" we only hurt ourselves, why would that be a good thing?anna...Put that time into your marriage. snl....That is what I am doing. I cannot remain married anna unless I feel and believe it is the right choice.anna....I could careless about the psychology of why you make bad choices. I only know what you are doing is mean, cruel and wrong. snl....It is none of those anna. It is hard yes, but it is honest, fair, and I am being as compassionate as I can. But ya know anna, selfish as it may be, life is not just about my w, it is about me too, I do count, I am not just a fixture in anyone elses life.anna.....You come on here and verbally abuse your wife, the person you are suppose to respect and love as you love your own body. You tell people a skewed view of how she's munipulative and so forth, I see munipulation in almost ever post you present on MB. I can't stand the way you continually treat her. All I want now is for you to wake up and be the husband God wants you to be. snl....Anna, I am honest, respectful, about very very difficult stuff, why is that abuse? It sounds to me like even having the thoughts and concerns I do you find offensive. How does one ever change anna? How does one ever understand why they are unahppy if they don't face stuff, how does one ever leave a marriage if they are unwilling to question the marriage? And if we will never leave it, then what is it? It is not love, it is not bonding, it is an obseessive focus on a picture, a legalistic ordering of our lives. I can't live that way anna, it is not who I am, it is not the way God crafted this Joseph.anna...Apologize to your wife, SNL, tell her sincerely what you did was wrong and you will not do it again.snl....I have, a number of times, and indeed I am fairly certain I will never choose to pursue love under the conditions we label an A.anna....Be a real man and take responsibility! Get your respect back!snl....Does that mean respect can only come if I choose a particular path? Or does it come cause I weigh all the facts, and make a proactive choice regardless of that choice? Is respect the process, or the outcome?anna....I have a feeling Ms. Pure and Innocent is on her third or fourth affair right now. I think she also came up with excuses why she didn't want you anymore. snl....You don't know her anna, you cannot possible have a useful opinion (good or bad). Maybe she rejected and abandoned me, maybe not, only she knows for sure. But she (and anyone involved in an A) if they have any ethics/morals at all (and yes, most of us do, we are no different than most of the bs, we are all just people), find themselves under enormous emotional/psychological pressure......and doing the "right" thing becomes very confusing. Was she scared, and lonely, and guilt-riden? Sure, does that make her a bad person? Seems more like makes her a good person, a normal person. On the other hand, maybe the conquest was over, the jig up, the w knows, time to move on, I have no reason to believe that.....but regardless of what the truth is about her, or me, neither of us tried in any way to make the other leave their spouse. As for having another affair, she had no need to tell me, I never would have known. Ya know anna, people are people, in all their infinite variety and fittings. It may serve a need for the bs to demonize the op, but that does not make it so. This is not the place to analyze the ow, she is gone now, the A is over, she is no more "guilty" than I, and I perhaps more so. I chose to act on my emotions, but I knew where this was all going to end up, not the details, not the intensity, but I knew the piper would have to be paid. I don't know yet whether the price was too high, but I think not, a lot of "work" needed to be done in a lot of lives. That may drive some of you nuts, but to an analyrtical type it makes perfect sense.anna....I think she tired of you. She wanted something different. You weren't fulfilling her sexually anymore than her husband was. She's now sucking someone else's husband into her poor, misunderstood life. Ruining another marriage as I type. What makes your Ms. Pure and Innocent be any different than the person you described in your post linked above? What makes you any different? That link describes you both.snl...Maybe nothing makes us any different anna. Maybe you are absolutely right. It is one of the possibilities I keep in mind.Thank-you for your effort....may I ask you a couple questions, would appreciate an in-depth answer, and one having to do only with you, not me.1. Why stay married?...assuming all the needs of your spouse are met.....financially, security, you remain available as extended family [yes an x is extended family]..... if two people are not passionately in love....why do you need to be married to "caringly" love each other?2. Do you think feelings are important? Or do we just stay married to whoever we happened to marry in the ignorance of our youth, because of legalism (vows and committment etc.).3. If feelings are important, how do you (and why should you) act in opposition to your feelings?Do not factor in children. There is a higher degree of sacrifice involved with young children, but the days of staying married for the psychological benefit of the kids are long past. The difficulty I have with many of the bs arguments is that the ws should just "do it"....ok, I disagree, but I can understand all the reasons.....what makes me a little crazy is not only do they want them to just "do it" but they have to like it to...no not just like, "love" it......since we cannot manufacture feelings we kinda expect the ws to violate radical honesty and just not let the bs know they really don't want to do it, but are doing so for various reasons..... the bs is a better deal, the ws figures they must for religious reasons, the op dumped em, a whole bunch of stuff, everything but feeling passionate for them. So the ws says I love you too, and works on their list of meeting your needs, but you know, deep down, they really don't want to be there, they are just making do, putting in their time, what does that do to people? And why would anyone want it? Yet that is what many marriages are, more than a few on the recovery board, celebrating the "struggle" of working on marriage, but never admitting the truth to each other, they really don't want this, they are just doing it cause they don't know anything else to do, and call it love. 4. If that is all marriage is...a struggle...why do it at all anna, why not just be single? What point is there to being married?

A Few Things:Snl: I have no obligation to tell anyone anything if I so choose not too. I told my w the truth cause I thought it fair to do so, I did it in my way in my time, and I am willing to experience the consequences of that action, what more can you ask of a human being?Cjack: That isn't really "radical honesty," is it? It is Conditional Honesty. You are honest when and where you decide to be honest.Snl: I had been a loyal and faithful husband, I know I bear my w no ill-will, and my intentions for the ow were honorable (which is why my w is so distressed, she knows I am not capable of flings or using people, she knows I made committments arising out of legitimate feelings). That is the problem anna, what does one do? Cjack: I have to strongly disagree. You have NOT been a loyal and faithful husband. Your intentions with the OW were NOT honorable. How could you argue otherwise? Your feelings regarding the OW do not legitimize your actions, regardless of your "will" toward your W. What does one "do?" One does not act on impulse, passion, or any other temporary emotion. You are once again trying to rationalize your actions.Snl: As for secrecy, that is just the truth, it is the reason affairs (and lots of things people do) are secret, to avoid interference.So lying is a part of radical honesty? Secrecy is part of the truth? I'm sorry, but keeping something secret to "avoid interference" hardly seems like radical honesty to me.Does "avoiding interference" justify lying? Snl: I am not putting my w and family through anything, it is just life...I've read Thinker's posts. You are putting her (and your children) through hell. I wish I had a solution for you, and I don't. But to deny that you are causing them pain is the deepest denial. You are being dishonest with yourself, SNL.

cjack...Snl: I have no obligation to tell anyone anything if I so choose not too. I told my w the truth cause I thought it fair to do so, I did it in my way in my time, and I am willing to experience the consequences of that action, what more can you ask of a human being?Cjack: That isn't really "radical honesty," is it? It is Conditional Honesty. You are honest when and where you decide to be honest.snl....Jeez cjack, you are driving me nuts sometimes. So your version of radical honesty is to immediately blurt out everyting in your life the instant you think it, or it happens....come on, you know that isn't how life works, nor is it how harley explains radical honesty. But if you insist, then ok it is conditional honesty, cause radical honesty does not exist, delay even a microsecond and you have violated the standard YOU just set for radical honesty!!!!!! Ok, can we agree there is some sort of standard here, and that when one says in my time and my way they have that in mind? In other words waiting 10 years to reveal an affair could be considered a tad self-serving, but immediately tieing em to the chair and spilling your guts entirely without taking a breath is probably not the best method either, especially if they are taking um...... the bar exam next week....ya get my drift guy? I was balancing a lot of conflicting issues, her needs, my needs, family needs, and I did what I thought best.....isn't that what YOU do...ya know, what you think best?Snl: I had been a loyal and faithful husband, I know I bear my w no ill-will, and my intentions for the ow were honorable (which is why my w is so distressed, she knows I am not capable of flings or using people, she knows I made committments arising out of legitimate feelings). That is the problem anna, what does one do? Cjack: I have to strongly disagree. You have NOT been a loyal and faithful husband. Your intentions with the OW were NOT honorable. How could you argue otherwise? snl...Up till the affair I was a loyal faithful husband, why is this a problem for you?cjack....Your feelings regarding the OW do not legitimize your actions, regardless of your "will" toward your W. What does one "do?" One does not act on impulse, passion, or any other temporary emotion. You are once again trying to rationalize your actions.snl...Rationalize? Hardly, I was done, my wife had on the table a standing offer for divorce, I accepted it..... Yes, I had already acted on my feelings for ow......but ya know, right or wrong, I felt my wife left me long ago, long before I met the ow....so what does that mean? It certainly was not the affair. I was not sharing or doing much of anything with my w (nor whe I), I was contemplating a future without her (either seperated or divorced)...the only thing missing was the divorce decree, something pretty much irrelevant anyways, divorce begins in the heart, and someone always goes first. Ya know I think life would be a lot more simple if we just eliminated the piece of paper, and went back to the olden days where divorce simply meant one spouse told another I am done, and left..... that would eliminate all this phoney rationalization crap, and people continually saying but we are "married" (cause of the legal circumstances) when in their hearts they are not married.Snl: As for secrecy, that is just the truth, it is the reason affairs (and lots of things people do) are secret, to avoid interference.So lying is a part of radical honesty? Secrecy is part of the truth? I'm sorry, but keeping something secret to "avoid interference" hardly seems like radical honesty to me.snl...You are right it is not radical honesty. I had no interest or intention of being honest with my wife, it never got me anything more than a kick in the teeth. My w never had the slightest interest in my feelings or thoughts, only in so much as how it affected her. I learned early on in my marriage to keep my mouth shut, and my thoughts well hidden. I don't do that anymore, and she is not doing well with the honesty, heck even you guys have trouble with it, and commiserate with her how awful I am.....maybe I should just start clamming up again.....what do you think?Does "avoiding interference" justify lying? snl...Absolutely.Snl: I am not putting my w and family through anything, it is just life...I've read Thinker's posts. You are putting her (and your children) through hell. I wish I had a solution for you, and I don't. But to deny that you are causing them pain is the deepest denial. You are being dishonest with yourself, SNL. snl...I am not putting them through anything. Unless you are suggesting my feelings don't count, and I should just hide them to avoid distressing anyone....is that what you think? I don't count? Now if I was being deliberately hurtful, rude, unnecessarily insensitive...fine, chastise me.....but where is the line cjack, where is the line that says my feelings count too and must be dealt with no matter how hurtful others might find that......? Or

Oh, what a host of issues we have here!Snl: But if you insist, then ok it is conditional honesty, cause radical honesty does not exist, delay even a microsecond and you have violated the standard YOU just set for radical honesty!!!!!! Ok, can we agree there is some sort of standard here, and that when one says in my time and my way they have that in mind? In other words waiting 10 years to reveal an affair could be considered a tad self-serving, but immediately tieing em to the chair and spilling your guts entirely without taking a breath is probably not the best method either, especially if they are taking um...... the bar exam next week....ya get my drift guy? ICjack: "In my time and in my way" is just another way of saying "I'll be honest with you when I'm damned good and ready!" Or better yet: "Gosh, I'm taking the bar exam next week, so you should forgive me for lying to you for awhile!"Horse-hockey!Don't even pretend to practice radical honesty if you are not prepared to offer no excuses.
snl...Up till the affair I was a loyal faithful husband, why is this a problem for you?Cjack: That's like saying "Until I murdered those people, I was an upstanding citizen...give me a break!"Sorry, but we need to judge you by your actions...ALL your actions! To suggest that we only judge you by your good times is a little odd, don't you think?Snl: I had no interest or intention of being honest with my wife, it never got me anything more than a kick in the teeth. My w never had the slightest interest in my feelings or thoughts, only in so much as how it affected her. Cjack: Had you ever thought of being honest for honesty's sake? I would also argue that your attitude towards your W totally disregards her feelings. Is this revenge? If so, is revenge rational?Snl: snl...I am not putting them through anything. Unless you are suggesting my feelings don't count, and I should just hide them to avoid distressing anyone....is that what you think? I don't count? Cjack: I am NOT suggesting that your feelings don't count. What I AM suggesting is that YOUR feelings don't trump THEIR feelings. You ARE putting them through hell, but you justify it by saying that it makes you feel good. What kind of logic is that? Are you blind to what they feel? Is there not some middle ground? You say "damn their feelings, my feelings are more important!"Have you no compassion? How can you ask for sympathy when you yourself are so unsympathetic?

Hi thinker and s_n_l,
I have followed your posts ever since the day that SNL took over your previous screen name! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You both are still sounding the same as when I first came to MB... Thinker is still saying the same things over and over and SNL keeps saying the same things over and over and over and it seems like neither one of you are hearing each other.None of us out here are going to be able to convince you both of anything is the way I see it. Both of you are going to have to look within to find your solutions and answers.No matter how many times people answer your question(s) about why stay married if you don't fit, what is love, why does it have to be work, etc., you refuse to hear the answers, just keep asking the same questions over and over again.I don't get why keep asking the same people the same questions over and again only to get basically the same answers over and again.Is it so you can find one who agrees with you out of 10? (no answer required, just food for thought) And, if 9 out of 10 do not agree with you, do you dismiss their answers rather than let some of the words sink in? Everybody can't be wrong?!? I mean, if your opinion is outnumbered, don't you have to stop at some point and ask yourself if your way of thinking could be misguided?Sure, we are not robots but we can reprogram our ways of thinking. It's never too late.Are you both so set in your ways that you have turned a deaf ear to each other?At what point do you forgive and move on and quit rehashing the past? Okay, so you're angry with the OW, what BS is not? What now? Do you carry the anger and bitterness to your grave or do you find a way to move past it? After all, that is the Christian thing to do, right?I'm not trying to minimalize anyone's problems whatsoever, but it just sort of frustrating to me how neither one of you is backing off of your position. When no one wants to bend, nothing will ever get resolved.Calling your spouse a derrogatory name is verbal abuse. That is what was meant by abusive. It's so funny how nothing is getting through all the strife between you two. This strife is what is killing your marriage, not the infidelity! The strife--the undercurrent of anger--on both your parts is what has poisoned your marriage to the point where it has soured. I hope you guys figure it out before you throw away all the years you have spent together. Considering it has been the major portion of your lives, isn't the investment of time worth something?p.s.While it is not in the bible, I do believe that we have a responsibility and a part to play in order for God to help us. WE have to pray, WE have to believe, WE have to receive the blessings that are already provided, WE have to give thanks, WE have to focus our minds on God's promises, WE have to develop the fruit of the Spirit, WE have to trust, WE have to obey... God's promises are unconditional, but His blessings are conditional.

snl....Do you mean just "do it", no matter how I feel, just do what others say I should? How does one do that anna, how do you do it? Don't you do what you want? I feel compelled to answer this one. You can't just do it when there is no desire to make it work or when you don't believe in it, at least not for long. I tried that, lived day in day out for over 6 months pretending that things were ok, that we were trying to recover. Everyone here said to keep on doing it, the desire and feeling (to want to be married to W) will return. As uncomfortable as it was, I worked on our ENs, I even tried to convince myself it is not that bad after all, put on the happy face, it seemed like it was the right thing to do at the time but you are right deep down I didn't want to be there. I felt trapped, I was miserable and she was miserable - that's no way to live a life. But I just don't understand SNL, what are you trying to evaluate? If you consider yourself emotionally divorce for sometime already and do not factor kids in this, what is keeping you or will keep you in this marriage? Are you trying to see if you can passionately love your wife again? Or if a sacrificial marriage can be enough for you? Do you think you might be happier not married and being single? Do you look forward for a life other than the one you are living now? Which ever way you decide to go, life will still be a struggle for a while. I am speaking from the other side of the fence. While the issues may be different, it is still just as hard a struggle.Sorry thinker for invading your thread.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cjack:
[QB]Oh, what a host of issues we have here!
Cjack: "In my time and in my way" is just another way of saying "I'll be honest with you when I'm damned good and ready!" Or better yet: "Gosh, I'm taking the bar exam next week, so you should forgive me for lying to you for awhile!"Horse-hockey!Don't even pretend to practice radical honesty if you are not prepared to offer no excuses.TR- cjack, Did you understand "radical honesty"
before you found the MB board? and if So did you
practice it w/ your own spouse? IMHO, He's is being honest with her, and even with himself, probably for the first time in his life..
Cjack: That's like saying "Until I murdered those people, I was an upstanding citizen...give me a break!"TR- Why do you have a problem with the fact he said he was a 'faithful, and loyal' husband up till the affair?? not telling her how he really
felt inside has nothing to do w/ being faithful
and loyal..
cjack-Sorry, but we need to judge you by your actions...ALL your actions! To suggest that we only judge you by your good times is a little odd, don't you think?TR- who are we to 'judge' him anyway?? I don't think that is what this board is about, judging others..it's about trying to understand, and make sense out of everything..and help each other grow
and understand, and hopefully have stronger marriage as the end result..Cjack: Had you ever thought of being honest for honesty's sake? I would also argue that your attitude towards your W totally disregards her feelings. Is this revenge? If so, is revenge rational?TR- Have you always been 'totally honest' with
your spouse? I understand where he is coming from
here, when you are honest with someone about your
feelings only to get told that you don't..and they
ignore those feelings..even though you have been
honest about them..Cjack: I am NOT suggesting that your feelings don't count. What I AM suggesting is that YOUR feelings don't trump THEIR feelings. You ARE putting them through hell, but you justify it by saying that it makes you feel good. What kind of logic is that? Are you blind to what they feel? Is there not some middle ground? You say "damn their feelings, my feelings are more important!"TR- I don't know cjack, it looks to me like he
is taking both of their feelings into account, which is why he hasn't just left the marriage..
had he been really self-serving..he would have
just left with out trying to figure out what was
wrong to begin with..but, he hasn't done that..
he's staying..and being honest with both her and himself, and trying to figure out what's next..
can we make this marriage work based on how we both feel? Or do we say, okay, I can't live in a marriage with the fact that you/I feel this way, and respect the others feelings in the process, no matter how much it hurts..and end the marriage..I am sure they are both hurting right now..and I am sure he knows how much the truth is hurting her, not that he wants to intentially hurt her,
but, he may have (and from what he's said) he has
tried to be honest with her about these things
before, only to have what was being said ignored..
So he quit being honest..and let her believe what
she wanted..but, now, they have come to a cross roads because of his affair..now, as he has said, it's time to pay the piper..not just him..but her too..her for not accepting his feelings as he (says) he tried to explain them..and him for his actions of the affair..and it is very painful for both to face these things..honestly..And SNL, I personally respect you for your doing the soul searching that you are doing..and that
you aren't just running away from your marriage,
and the problems you two have had, and are having,
and how you are trying to figure out if/how you can make things better..I personally think that is something that many of the bs's here are having the biggest trouble with..their spouses ran away..without doing all the soul searching and 'radical' honesty that you are doing..and facing the pain head on that Thinker and you are both feeling..instead of just running from it..and I respect Thinker, for staying and trying to accept/face and deal with those feelings, when it would be so much easier and less painful to just run away..and continue to ignore them..I believe, it's through the process that you are
going through right now..that will either make or break your marriage..what can I live with, what can't I live with, what can you live with, what
can't you live with..okay..are these things we can change within ourselves to make this work?? Is this something I can do, or can't do? Maybe it's because I've been in your shoes, doing the soul searching..and radical honesty..and staying to face it, only to have my stbxh run
away and not even to work through it, that I can respect what you are doing..Okay, I made a mistake, we both have..lets deal/face with the problems honestly that
led to the mistakes..and see what happens..

I hesitate to even post here because ya'll are actually highjacking Thinker's thread and now I am an accomplice to this, but some of this is getting out of hand (IMO).
I have to agree with Thorned Rose. SNL is being villified simply because some of you don't agree with him. I don't think he is a saint either, but who is? He is being more radically honest than most of us care to stomach and that is why you are outraged. Cjack: That's like saying "Until I murdered those people, I was an upstanding citizen...give me a break!"Wiffle: This happens all the time. Not murder, but certainly other transgressions. And yes, up until (whatever event) I was a (whatever kind of person). In my case, I could write the sentence as follows: "Up until my complete breakdown last year that caused me to lose my job and enter therapy and possibly cost me my marriage, I was a highly successful, happy and productive person."
SNL doesn't still claim to be faithful. He simply said he WAS faithful.Cjack: I am NOT suggesting that your feelings don't count. What I AM suggesting is that YOUR feelings don't trump THEIR feelings. You ARE putting them through hell, but you justify it by saying that it makes you feel good. What kind of logic is that? Are you blind to what they feel? Is there not some middle ground? You say "damn their feelings, my feelings are more important!"Wiffle: I don't recall SNL ever saying he felt good. Actually, just the opposite. I think he probably feels like **** most of the time. And if his feelings don't trump Thinkers, why should hers trump his? The problem with this situation is there usually is no middle ground because the abandoned spouse won't allow there to be. That person is so hell bent and determined to hang on that they lose focus of what it is they are trying to hang on to. If Thinker could step back and really look at her relationship I bet she would agree there isn't much there. She may well be happier and healthier without SNL. But, she is clouded by "what could have been" and wishful thinking that isn't real.The other BSs on this forum don't want to see this and that is why it becomes increasingly difficult to have meaningful exchanges.And before you ask, I am not the WS. There are no affairs in my troubled marriage.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> SNL is being villified simply because some of you don't agree with him. <hr></blockquote>its not that i don't agree with him, its that he is refusing to make a decision, one way or the other, and has abdicated the responsibility for that decision to his W.He is using differing viewpoints to maintain his current situation, which is in limbo, and his inability is causing other people alot of pain, and frustration.If SNL were to state his goal, have an action plan, and a progress review at different times, i can support him. However, to be unable to decide this basic life plan, he is just wandering through life, and other people HAD some expectations of him not be wandering.So i am challenging him to stop wandering and work towards a plan. There is a saying, "Not to decide is to decide" and that decision describes confusion. OK, i can buy that as long as one is working on a plan to reduce the FOG (confusion) but SNL is playing mental masterbation games by going to counseling, and then not doing the assignments.That wreaks of ODD, oppositional defiant disorder, meaning the inability to cooperate just to get attention. it is a childish behavioral stage or phase, usually an adult grows out of it.Evidently, SNL is regressing to not being able to cooperate with anyone, nor able to make a decision, and therefore, after a certain point, I vote to use the BIG GUN!WIFTTy

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
its not that i don't agree with him, its that he is refusing to make a decision, one way or the other, and has abdicated the responsibility for that decision to his W.He is using differing viewpoints to maintain his current situation, which is in limbo, and his inability is causing other people alot of pain, and frustration.If SNL were to state his goal, have an action plan, and a progress review at different times, i can support him. However, to be unable to decide this basic life plan, he is just wandering through life, and other people HAD some expectations of him not be wandering.So i am challenging him to stop wandering and work towards a plan. There is a saying, "Not to decide is to decide" and that decision describes confusion. OK, i can buy that as long as one is working on a plan to reduce the FOG (confusion) but SNL is playing mental masterbation games by going to counseling, and then not doing the assignments.That wreaks of ODD, oppositional defiant disorder, meaning the inability to cooperate just to get attention. it is a childish behavioral stage or phase, usually an adult grows out of it.Evidently, SNL is regressing to not being able to cooperate with anyone, nor able to make a decision, and therefore, after a certain point, I vote to use the BIG GUN!WIFTTy<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
Evidently, SNL is regressing to not being able to cooperate with anyone, nor able to make a decision, and therefore, after a certain point, I vote to use the BIG GUN!WIFTTy<hr></blockquote>LOL!!! OK you got my vote, let's use the the BIG GUN! That is hillarious. Wifty, I agree with you here 100% on everything you said, he needs to either "Crap or get off the pot." I do think he is very sad and frustrated inside. He knows if he leaves her his personality will be that of regret and pain. He for his own views he will be distraught over his decision the rest of his life. I think this is why he is lingering. However, the other side, I think if he admits there was hope all along in his marriage, if his marriage becomes successful, then there are too many things he would have to face up too. As TR says, inside he is having a huge battle. Thinker,We are all worried about kidnapping your post. However, when it comes to direct questions and answers to your husband, I would think you really don't mind, as this still pertains to your marriage. However, if I am wrong, please let us know and we will start our own thread with SNL. I would like to know your thoughts on this. (ok, that is funny! I am saying "I want to know Thinkers thoughts." Ok, so you know my secret now...corny sense of humor.)ANNA

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:its not that i don't agree with him, its that he is refusing to make a decision, one way or the other, and has abdicated the responsibility for that decision to his W.He is using differing viewpoints to maintain his current situation, which is in limbo, and his inability is causing other people alot of pain, and frustration.If SNL were to state his goal, have an action plan, and a progress review at different times, i can support him. However, to be unable to decide this basic life plan, he is just wandering through life, and other people HAD some expectations of him not be wandering.So i am challenging him to stop wandering and work towards a plan. There is a saying, "Not to decide is to decide" and that decision describes confusion. OK, i can buy that as long as one is working on a plan to reduce the FOG (confusion) but SNL is playing mental masterbation games by going to counseling, and then not doing the assignments.That wreaks of ODD, oppositional defiant disorder, meaning the inability to cooperate just to get attention. it is a childish behavioral stage or phase, usually an adult grows out of it.Evidently, SNL is regressing to not being able to cooperate with anyone, nor able to make a decision, and therefore, after a certain point, I vote to use the BIG GUN!WIFTTy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:Evidently, SNL is regressing to not being able to cooperate with anyone, nor able to make a decision, and therefore, after a certain point, I vote to use the BIG GUN!WIFTTy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------LOL!!! OK you got my vote, let's use the the BIG GUN! That is hillarious. Wifty, I agree with you here 100% on everything you said, he needs to either "Crap or get off the pot." I do think he is very sad and frustrated inside. He knows if he leaves her his personality will be that of regret and pain. He for his own views he will be distraught over his decision the rest of his life. I think this is why he is lingering. However, the other side, I think if he admits there was hope all along in his marriage, if his marriage becomes successful, then there are too many things he would have to face up too. As TR says, inside he is having a huge battle. Thinker,We are all worried about kidnapping your post. However, when it comes to direct questions and answers to your husband, I would think you really don't mind, as this still pertains to your marriage. However, if I am wrong, please let us know and we will start our own thread with SNL. I would like to know your thoughts on this. (ok, that is funny! I am saying "I want to know Thinkers thoughts." Ok, so you know my secret now...corny sense of humor.)ANNA[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

TR- Have you always been 'totally honest' with
your spouse? I understand where he is coming from
here, when you are honest with someone about your
feelings only to get told that you don't..and they
ignore those feelings..even though you have been
honest about them..Cjack: Actually, I was honest with my XW about my feelings. I think that is why I responded so angrily to SNL's post. His attitude of "I have no obligation to tell anyone anything if I so choose not too..." really rubs me the wrong way. Wiffle: SNL is being villified simply because some of you don't agree with him. I don't think he is a saint either, but who is? He is being more radically honest than most of us care to stomach and that is why you are outraged. I admit to being outraged, but not because of his radical honesty. Yes, I strongly disagree with his continued justification and rationalization of his own actions. In other posts, SNL has repeatedly stated that affairs are normal, healthy behavior. In this thread, he has stated that he feels almost no guilt or remorse over what he has done, and said that he didn't put his wife and children "through" anything at all. I think that's what angered me more than anything. I admit that I was angry last night when I posted, and I apologize to all (SNL included) if I came off as judgemental.

I just don't get it why is it okay for SNL to be judgemental but no one else can? If you read any of his posts he has from day one passed judgement on not only his wife, the institution of marriage, the Harleys, marriagbuilders, others posting here, the spouses of those who post here etc etc. He has stated that affairs are a good thing yet he called the H of one poster here a pimp because he manages a strip club! He denounces immoral those who use porn yet sees nothing wrong with his affair! This is waaay beyond just the normal WS fog. You only need to read one his posts to realize that he is not interested in saving his marriage he is only going thru the motions so he can say he tried. But since he is a good Christian and all around great guy he can't be the one to file for divorce.
So what to do what to do? In typical passive/aggressive style he does nothing therefore forcing his w to file so that she can end this horrific limbo. And so he gets to tell everyone how he tried, how she was the one who filed..blah, blah blah. Poor SNL how he must have suffered at the hands of that she-devil!
It will make a great sob story for the next woman in his life.Frankly I don't how thinker has put up with him for 20+ years. If his posts are how he relates IRL she deserves a nomination for sainthood.

cjack,I think it's cool you apologizde and decided there were better ways you could have presented your view, however, I want you to also consider these thoughts.Here's what I think regarding the word judgemental. First, Here's some definitions of judgement. Judgement: 1. the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing. 2. a proposition stating something believed or asserted 3. b : an opinion so pronounced. Now there are other defintions of judgement which do not apply, such as 1. the final judging of mankind by God 2. judgements past down through court. Ok, looking at those definitions applicable, judgement means opinion as Webster's dictionary states, then here's my question. How in the world are we suppose to help people on MB and give any opinions, if people say don't judge and basically judgement is just that, opinions?MB Forum is just that, every person expressing there opinion/judgement. Sure we have an obligation to try hard to keep out verbal abuse and try very hard to use discretion not to hurt persons with our opinons, but we still have an obligation to also be honest with them. MB is also a great way to learn to communicate better and learn more tact to get our points across. However, to an extent there are cases where persons the indirect approach doesn't work so we need to use more direct approaches. I am not saying direct in a hurtful way, but direct in a "this is how it is, get the picture way" Being tactful just doesn't work sometimes. I also think there are times when people really think they can "pull the wool" over others eyes. I refuse to cater to these people.I wouldn't be a bit surprised if somewhere ages ago some Wayward Spouses while in there fog, got together and decided expressing what is right and wrong, and giving opinions on right and wrong is just unacceptable and in doing so is somehow condemning them. Here's a couple of ways I think judgemental attitudes are not acceptable. 1. If I or someone gave another person unsolicited adviced and told this person how wrong they are living their lives. 2.If I or anyone were to judge someone by saying, you are going to go to hell for your actions. This would be doing God's job as only he can condemn a person to heaven or hell. Now, the difference to telling a neighbor which never solicited an opinion from me and being on MB and expressing an opinion is fairly obvious. This is an open discussion forum. It is governed by the MB concepts and rules. We have a right to express opinions/judgement along these rules and guidelines set.Anyway, just some thoughts I felt you may find interesting.Thanks for listening.ANNA

SNL,I started the post to you on your questions, but didn't finish them. Sorry!I have a couple more questions too.If your wife was the one who had the affair and handled it exactly as you did. How would you feel right now? Would she be justified in her actions? Would her actions just be a fact of how life is?If she had an affair now and didn't tell you. What would you do? How would you react? Would she be justified in having an affair? Thanks for answering all my questions.ANNA

s_n_l, thinker? Are you guys out there? Hmmm... must be taking a break from MB today. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Oh well, it's probably for the best!

I have read all the info you people have given. Interesting, and I have to agree with some of what all you are saying. Yesterday, I worked all day, election here. Today, trying to get things done, paperwork, nap, calls with H, dinner and talked to my mom. Things not going good with my dad, radiation side effect is short term memory. He fell yesterday, and mom had to show him how to roll over and get on all 4's. He mumbles quite a bit, and doesn't understand some things you are saying. He is also having a hard time having words come out, he gets frustrated trying to talk and mom is trying to complete his statements. This is so hard to take.Yesterday, at the election, I worked with 3 other woman, one talked about a relative having an affair. I couldn't say much, just said it is sad and I feel sorry for the wife. Said It must be hard to be the betrayed spouse. Not a good time talking about something they don't know I am trying to deal with on a daily basis. Then H called me on cellphone to see how I am doing. H talked to Steve yesterday, and more of the same. Started on why just do it. H wants the passionate, in-love thingy. Got depressed, and basically was not in a good mood the rest of the night. Came home, in a bad mood, we were in confrontation about the affair. I LB big time, but you know what, I didn't care at the time. Started physical therapy Monday, and have on Wed. and Fri. Came home today, tried to get things done and called parents around noon. Talked to mom and found about dads episode of falling. She is taking dad to Radiation today, and asking for them to check him out from the fall. This is so hard for her, I need to help her more. Yes, I feel Sad-N-Lonely, is restating the same statements over and over. I don't feel he is looking into regaining this marriage. He basically wants to find out why he had an affair, and why she dumped him. He tells me he was divorced from me emotionally, and I feel he wants to stay that way. He tells me that he wants me to get a job of some sort, what if he were to die. I feel he is getting things ready for divorce, this is my feelings. Yes, I still have questions about God. How many times does one ask for forgiveness on adultery? I stated this to my H and he said for ever. But how does one live with themselves and the adultery? Especially in my case, my H does not feel remorse or guilt for the adultery. So I feel he does not want the marriage, he is doing some of the things here until he finds out why he did what he did. Seems with him being on the boards since February some sort of plan is in place. But to me it seems there is no plan, just doing something day by day with no real direction. That is the problem with the MB counseling. He doesn't want to just do it, he wants the motivation to do it. I feel no hope, just living under the same roof, and that is it. I will have to file when the time comes. He states he will not file. So I guess the end will come, and it will be what he wanted in the first place.H and I talked about his physical affair with the OW. He should of told me about the sex with the OW, so that I could of made my own decision to have sex with H or not. This is hurting in side so much. H was in control of the situation, and lied to me and I feel used (possible rape). Everyone can think whatever they want with each of us. This is a free forum. I am not a controller any more than H, I feel. I am more of a caregiver. Told H if situation was like what my mom is dealing with, I would be there for him 24 hours. Can't say H would be there physically for me, he would provide money to provide care, but I said what about the TLC, support of H, and care of H? Yes, I would be happier with someone who shows TLC and caring more readily. I love to hug, I love to touch, I love to kiss. I need a human body to hold me, to know he will be by my side 24 hours a day if need be. So I don't see any real marriage here. He wants different needs, and I can't give them all to him. I can provide some, but not all. Dealing with a lot of problems here, and not in the best of mood. Life sucks!!!!!!!!!

Thinker,I am so sorry to hear about your dad. I know this is very difficult on your entire family. It was on us when my mom had cancer. It was difficult to see her go from the independant woman to where she couldn't care for herself. I have a question for you concerning this though, have you sat down and talked to your dad, told him it's okay for him to stop fighting and that you will be okay? Has your mom and other family members done the same? Take the time now to tell him everything you've ever wanted to tell him. I know that once me, my brothers, sister and our kids told our mom we would be okay..and we undertood that she didn't want to quit fighting because she wanted to be here to watch her grandkids grow..but,it was okay to let go..
it's like she needed to know we would be okay without her..yes we loved her very much, but we loved her enough to want her to free of the pain she was in.she wanted that we wouldn't hate her or think she just gave up..and resent her for not being here anymore..we all sat down with her and told her we loved her..and that we'd miss her. And that Jesus is waiting on the other side for her to finally come home and rest. She'd done all God wanted her to do in this life..it was time to go home..My mom went home within three days of all of us talking to her..she died a peaceful death..at my sisters home..with my sister and I there with her..It was awesome..I sat there reading the bible to her, my sister said "your wasting your time, she can't hear you" I just looked at her and said
"yes, she can,she hears every word I am saying her soul is more alive than you think." I started reading the Lords Prayer and my sister sat in shock as she heard our mom pray with me..my sister sat up and started praying too, she took her last breath shortly after we finished praying..maybe talk to your family and ask them if they would be willing to do this, and basically give him permission to stop fighting..because you love him enough to let him go home..I know it's hard to let go, but it's better than seeing them suffer-

Hi thinker, s_n_l,
I just want you guys to know that I care about you and that's why I am intrigued by your story and keep following up on it. Consider yourselves hugged. If I didn't care, I could just easily skip to another thread. So I hope you don't ever feel attacked by me, okay?I wanted to address your question of how many times do we ask for forgiveness from a Christian point of view, so I'm not trying to start any sort of religious debate. You have stated you have Christian beliefs so this is addressed to you and not as a topic for debate--so my intention is sister to sister, sister to brother in Christ. I think we ask God one time, by faith, and then receive that forgiveness. If we have to keep asking God, then that means that either God is deaf and didn't hear us the first time or else He ignored us and/or God didn't forgive us at all--and those are totally out the window because they contradict the Word. Either that or we don't think God heard us and that would be doubting. Doubt is a major enemy of faith!(Ask and ye shall receive--we do the asking and we do the receiving... God never ignores a prayer of faith, in fact, Jesus made a point of telling people how much their faith had to do with their receiving of their miracles. We call and He hears us each and every time!!! It's a promise!)God hears us with a loving and compassionate ear just as we hear our own children crying out to us for help--only times that by His omniscience. Remember the shed Blood of Jesus bought and paid for our forgiveness, so wouldn't it be up to us to RECEIVE it? It's already paid for, our redemption, that is... Right? I think we have to do more receiving than asking for something that has already been provided for... So I would submit to you to receive His love and forgiveness for yourself, THEN and only then, can you give it to others (and anyone else who has hurt you).By hating, we are just as guilty of sin as the adultery, right? Didn't Jesus equate hatred with the sin of murder? None of us is innocent. We all need God's forgiveness each and every day... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

My H uncle did the same with his dad. Grandpa that died just 5 weeks ago was doing okay. He ended up in the hopital quite suddenly. Prostrate cancer, Grandpa lasted only 7 days in the hospital. Grandpa and his son were religious. Son and sons wife told dad, it is time to go dad, you have a better place to go. We will be there with you in due time. Uncle stayed day and night with his dad, cause Dr.'s kept saying I don't think he will make it through the night. Grandpa had a severe stroke and was only hanging on by a thread. The last night, grandpa called for Ray (Uncle) he wasn't able to talk for 3 days, and Ray went to his bedside and recited a PSALM and told his dad it is okay to go dad, he loved him, and his dad went holding his sons hand.My problem, is my parents are not religious. I feel they know about God, they may have God in their heart. My twin brother has stated that he does not believe in God. I have talked to my parents once in a great while about my beliefs. I don't have the comfort knowing that my dad will go to heaven. That is my biggest concern. I have asked dad once or twice to accept the Lord into his heart, to no avail. To have my brother help, is, I feel not positive. His wife is religious, but then my brothers wife has not seen our parents since x-mas last year. They only live about 4 miles away. There is this wall she has built between her and the family. I have a friend that said she would be willing to talk to my dad, and she even said a older male from her church is willing to talk to dad. I might go that route. My friend and I are going to go to my parents to help clean the house next week. The subject will come up at that time. So for forgiveness from God, you ask and receive, I understand that. Then the OW has had another affair with my H and possibly a 3rd. Does she ask for forgiveness and receive as easily as the first one? Or did she ask and said OK I asked, I'm healed and move along and when the grass turned greener somewhere else, why did she wander? Why didn't God heal her to lead a christian life? Also, does God give forgiveness when the OW is not going to tell her H about the affair with my H? Does God forgive anyway, and help her to tell her H? Or does God forgive and and she just lead a life of a lie? How can one live knowing they committed adultery and keeping it from the person they love? I know when I say I hate the OW (who doesn't hate the OP) it is wrong. This totally confuses me. My H says, what does he know right? That the other woman is a christian. So why is she straying so much? Could the christianity be a show ticket to show others yes I am doing the right thing, but deep down in her heart she doesn't even know about God? To put a good picture on for herself, painting the good picture. I still feel this woman is psychologically unstable. Anyways, as you can see I am troubled still, I want to forgive my H, having a hard time. When the subject of the OW comes up, it hurts big time. Thanks for your help.[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: thinker ][ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: thinker ]

Hi thinker,
You know, I think if you stop letting OW take up so much space in your head, she can't continue to hurt you so much. As for her why's and how's of her infidelity, I think you should just leave that between her and her God and quit trying to figure her out. Maybe that would give you more room in your thoughts to reconcile with snl. I hear you about the verbal abuse and all this talk of divorce and everything, so you have some decisions to make for yourself regarding what is acceptable to you and what is no longer acceptable. In any case, my prayers are with you guys. <3<3<3

Originally posted by thinker:Maybe talk to your uncle? Ask him to talk to your parents? As well, as yes, have those from church talk to them also..Thinker -So for forgiveness from God, you ask and receive, I understand that. Then the OW has had another affair with my H and possibly a 3rd. Does she ask for forgiveness and receive as easily as the first one? Or did she ask and said OK I asked, I'm healed and move along and when the grass turned greener somewhere else, why did she wander?TR-She wandered the same reason we all do were sinners..and she may have asked..but, it's also
a matter of searching out and understanding her own needs..and whats missing inside of herself..
figuring out what needs her spouse can meet, what needs she can meet herself, and realizing the needs that ONLY God can meet, and allow God to meet them..she may not have done this..And yes, God forgives as easily the 3rd time as he does the 1st.Thinker-Why didn't God heal her to lead a christian life? TR-This isn't something that is an overnight process, I'm sure God is working on her heart
just as He is working on yours..and SNL's and
my own..
Thinker-Also, does God give forgiveness when the OW is not going to tell her H about the affair with my H? TR-God prompts the heart to confession..if she refuses to confess whats she's done..thats between her and God..Thinker-Does God forgive anyway, and help her to tell her H? TR-As stated above..He will prompt her heart to confess..and He gives strength to confess we just have to draw upon that strength and swollow our own pride to confess..Thinker-Or does God forgive and and she just lead a life of a lie? TR-It's her life..not yours..she will have to live with any internal struggles of guilt if she doesn't follow the prompting of God..Not you..Thinker-How can one live knowing they committed adultery and keeping it from the person they love?TR- The live with guilt, and shame..even if they don't acknowledge those feelings as such..Thinker- I know when I say I hate the OW (who doesn't hate the OP) it is wrong. This totally confuses me. TR- Think about this..is it you hate her or you hate what she's done? there is a big difference here..as you know I was abused..I don't hate my dad..but, I hate what he did to me..just as God
hates the sin..he loves the sinner..Thinker- My H says, what does he know right? That the other woman is a christian. So why is she straying so much?TR-She may have only a child's understanding of God. And as I stated before..she is a sinner, just
as we all are..and we ALL stray from God at some point in our life, thats how we grow..none of us are perfect..Thinker- Could the christianity be a show ticket to show others yes I am doing the right thing, but deep down in her heart she doesn't even know about God? To put a good picture on for herself, painting the good picture. I still feel this woman is psychologically unstable. TR- That is also a possibility, many within the churches have only a 'head' knowledge of God, but not a 'heart' knowledge..and understanding..Thinker-Anyways, as you can see I am troubled still, I want to forgive my H, having a hard time. When the subject of the OW comes up, it hurts big time. Thanks for your help.TR- Then forgive him..just say SNL, I forgive you..but,lets look at what forgiveness doesn't mean: that the pain will go away, that everything is okay..that you must trust him again right away..that you agree what he did was right..it does not mean he has the right to continue to hurt you..does not depend on the the one who committed the offense.Your refusing to forgive does nothing to SNL, or the OW-it only perpetuates the hurt you feel..We forgive because it honors Christ, and because it sets us free from the on going damage bitterness causes to us and those we love..
It means you are no longer in bondage to the person who hurt you, it means you will no longer live "your" life focused on what this person did..God doesn't excuse sin..but, He does forgive it..Forgiveness is for the one who was hurt, so that they can move on..it doesn't mean the other person shouldn't still face the consequences of their actions..exp. I forgive my dad for sexually abusing me,but it doesn't mean that what he did was right..and it doesn't mean I have to go over and spend time w/ him..so the consequences he suffers is..he doesn't get to see me, or his grandchildren as often as he would like.So, you can choose to forgive in your own time..it doesn't have to be right now..but, God does say
in Mark 11:26:But if ye do not forgive, neither will your father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. read through Mark chapter 11, and ask your pastor what he feels it means if you don't fully understand..I also wanted to add here, that this is where understanding what Boundries are, and how to set them comes in..You forgive, but, you also set the boundary that this is unexceptable to me..and as you begin to build the trust again..the boundries can change..Hope this helps answer some of your questions..[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]

One of the messages with talking with the Harleys, is trusting can come back when the WS is totally committed to the marriage. No, holding back, no considering POJA subjects, totally protecting the BS, totally concentrating on the marriage and BS. We don't have this yet, so I do not trust my H. I feel he will wander when the grass shows greener somewhere else. H looks a woman up and down pretty good. If I was the WS I would turn my head the other way, and say God help me.The reason I have OW in my conversations, is she has controlled almost everynight one dream. I am telling her we will tell her H, I usually do something like pull her hair, (H said she was balding), I kick her in the butt, because of the position she is in, or I take both their clothes and run out of the door, or something like that. I feel it is part of the suicide attempt she placed on me in the 3 conversations I had with her. (She called and talked to only me). And when I asked her a question it was 'I don't know', she controlled the conversation totally, and this makes me so mad now. I am the BS and let this awful woman control the conversation. I hate the fact that my H is her dirty little secret, but if that is what she wants, she has to live with it. I also, don't know how my H fell for her, and it hurts. She once was 200#, she is patchy bald, she is sexually more alive than me, and she is still overweight. But he liked her conversation. But it still hurts. I am trying to get her out, but like you said the hurt will not disappear. Until things are resolved here. And the hurt will be with me for a long time. Maybe just not as severe as now.

Thinker,First, I want to say I'm sorry you are going through so much. On your question regarding forgiveness. The reason I feel SNL continues to need forgiveness for the rest of his life is because he hasn't accepted responsibility yet. It only takes one time to say "Lord forgive me I have sinned, I will try hard to never let this sin into my life again." Then God will forgive him. He needs to ask you for forgiveness too, but as long as he thinks he did nothing wrong or sinful then he needs to ask himself this question, "Why do I need to ask for forgiveness from anyone, if nothing really was wrong?" The answer is obvious of course, it was wrong, he does need forgiveness. However, when a person ask God or anyone else to forgive them but then say I really didn't do anything wrong though, then how does a person get forgiveness? Also, how are you, thinker, going to move on with your marriage and put 100% effort into your marriage when you have in the back of your mind thoughts of your husband may and probably will justify another affair sometime again in his lifetime? The answer again is obvious. You can't. Until he admits his mistake, until he says it was wrong, I do have to answer to you as my wife when I cheat on you, then your marriage can not get the foundation it needs to build on. I think you are right, if after Steve counsels him in two more sessions, I would go to an attorney and start divorce proceedings.Do this for you. You deserve a person who will not have this attitude and who will treat you with respect and love you so deserve. Thinker, I went to a psychologist who asked me once what I respected about my mother. This is what I told her. I said my mother put up with everything my dad did. She put up with cheating, drinking, and selfishness. She just stayed through it all." The psychologist then said to me, "So what you are basically saying, is your mother taught you to stay no matter how bad the situation got." Ok, light went off in my head when she said this. Do you want your children to grow up thinking you stayed through it all and took whatever abuse your husband put up with, so they should too? Do you think it is healthy for your children to see day in and day out the way your husband is treating you and think this is how women should be treated?Well, just some things for you to think about.Also, another thing, I hope you are sharing all this with a couple of close friends of yours. You have a right to talk about your feelings to these persons. You also have a right to tell your family members about this.Again, I'm sorry it has to be such a rough time for you. My grandmother died of Altzheimer's and it was so sad to see a person losing so much of who they were day in and day out. There were times even through the altzheimers my grandmother still made us laugh. Ok, I have to tell you this story of my grandmother, even though it has nothing to do with anything on here. My grandmother loved tomatoes. She would call them "maters". She grew them for several years and then she used to buy them fresh all the times. This was her favorite thing to eat. I think she used to negotiate the price of these "maters" with the vendors who sold them to her. Anyway, during the final stages of the Altzheimer's disease, my cousin brought her this perfect, red large tomato. One of my relatives said, "Oh, she won't know what that is any more." But, he gave it to her anyway. He said "Grandma what do you think about this?" My grandmother looked at it and you could tell she liked it, but she said in this little weak voice, "Tiny, tiny, tiny." I am sure she had in her mind to bargain a price on this tomato. Well, just one of many favorite memories of my grandmother as she was in her final stages. I think there are memories we can have and cherish throughout a loved ones life, even the hardest of times. Take care,ANNAP.S.Well, I never got your thoughts on me or others posting to SNL on this thread. Is it ok? I am going to answer SNL's questions on here so if it is not please let me know.Double P.S.Thinker, I just read your last post above mine. We must of been posting around the same time. Weird you said somethings I addressed.[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

Thinker-One of the messages with talking with the Harleys, is trusting can come back when the WS is totally committed to the marriage. No, holding back, no considering POJA subjects, totally protecting the BS, totally concentrating on the marriage and BS. We don't have this yet, so I do not trust my H. I feel he will wander when the grass shows greener somewhere else. H looks a woman up and down pretty good.TR-This is true, he has to show you by his actions not just his words that he wants to be there 100%
just as you need to show him by your actions and not just your words that you want him there 100%Thinker- If I was the WS I would turn my head the other way, and say God help me.TR- You really can't say what you would do since you have not been the WS, though you can speculate what you hope you would do, and what you would like SNL to do to show you he's 100% there..Thinker-The reason I have OW in my conversations, is she has controlled almost everynight one dream. I am telling her we will tell her H, I usually do something like pull her hair, (H said she was balding), I kick her in the butt, because of the position she is in, or I take both their clothes and run out of the door, or something like that.TR- I think we all think of things we would LOVE to do..because we want to do something..to gain some control back of our lives..and doing these things would give you some control. Or Power if you will..it sounds like you feel powerless, helpless, as if you have no control..well, your right..you have no control over him or her..what they think, feel, do. you only have control over your own actions, thoughts and feelings..and this is very difficult to accept..You can not stop him from thinking, or feeling what he does towards OW..You have no control of those things..only he does..You can't stop him from going to see OW, or talking to OW, You don't control that..he's not a puppet on a string..to do your bidding..just as you are not a puppet on a string to do his..you have thoughts, feelings, and such of your own..and he can't stop you from having them..But, there are things you can do something about..you can work to change your own thoughts
and learn to accept your feelings as just that..YOUR feelings..he doesn't have to feel the same way you do..just as you don't have to feel the same way he does..and accept that it's ok to feel differently about things..There are things he can do to help - acknowledge to you that yes, you feel hurt, angry, betrayed and it's okay that you feel that way..but he is not required to 'feel' those same feelings, because they are yours not his..
Thinker- I feel it is part of the suicide attempt she placed on me in the 3 conversations I had with her. (She called and talked to only me). TR- She threatened to kill herself? How is that YOUR problem? If she kills herself, that is her choice..not yours..again..you have no control over what she does or says..only how you react..Thinker-And when I asked her a question it was 'I don't know', she controlled the conversation totally, and this makes me so mad now. I am the BS and let this awful woman control the conversation. TR- She didn't control the conversation with her 'i don't know' she avoided the questions with that answer- sounds like she didn't want to accept responsibility for her own actions..and you wanted her to..so it's understandable your upset about it..Thinker-I hate the fact that my H is her dirty little secret, but if that is what she wants, she has to live with it. TR- why do you hate that he is "her" dirty little secret?? It's her secret, not yours..you are NOT responsible for her secrets..yes you could contact her husband and tell him everything..but that doesn't mean she will 'admit' to it..but, it's her responsibility to own up to her own sins..not yours to stand there and shout out that she did this or she did that..(look at it in reverse
would want every thing you've done and were ashamed of spread around by others? or would you want to be the one who decides who to tell, and who not to tell? and when to tell?)Thinker-I also, don't know how my H fell for her, and it hurts. She once was 200#, she is patchy baldTR-So what she was once 200# what does that have to do with anything?? So she has many bad hair days..Thinker- she is sexually more alive than me, and she is still overweight. TR- Why do you think you are not as sexually alive as her? I'm not looking for the answer because SNL said she was..I am asking why do 'you'
think your not as sexually alive? What do you think stops you from being that way? and what do you deem as overweight? And what does one's weight have to do with it?Thinker-But he liked her conversation.TR- What types of things did they discuss? Did she challenge him to dig deep within himself? Did she ask questions that made him have to really think?
Did they talk about topics that you would be interested in learning? That would challenge your own knowledge and make you look within yourself or elsewhere to find the answer? Something that required serious thought and contemplation? And not just idle chit chat? From reading SNL's posts
he likes to have very intelectual conversations
that require more than a yes or no answer..and require some deep thought and contemplation before an answer is given..Thinker- But it still hurts. I am trying to get her out, but like you said the hurt will not disappear. Until things are resolved here. And the hurt will be with me for a long time. Maybe just not as severe as now.TR- I'm sure it still hurts very much..she was able to meet these conversational needs your husband has that you have not been able to meet for whatever reasons, be it you don't like conversations that require alot of thought, or you have just been to busy with the day to day things of life that you don't have them anymore- but the truth is that through these conversations, they formed a very strong emotional bond..which is probably what attracted him to her where he could put aside her physical appearance..So, I guess a challenge for you would be to try and meet this need for him..if you aren't knowledgeable on many topics (which I don't believe is the case) then look things up..search out the answers ask him questions and if he gives you an answer your not sure about..research the topic further..and get your own answer..it's not that you don't respect his answer..you just want to find it for yourself..and thats okay..it allows you to work on yourself, and gain knowledge of a topic your interested in..

SNL,Here are my latest comments to your comments in bold.Fair warning, I did not sugar coat my answers. I will not lie to you about how I feel.snl stated...I don't understand what you mean by blame. I have never done anything but take responsibility for my actions. What does taking blame look like? I say...You are suggesting through each of your post your wife was responsible for your affair. You never really come right out and say it but time and time again you say through your words she made me do it.snl stated...It was not lust anna, if lust drove me I would have had an affair long long ago. As for secrecy, that is just the truth, it is the reason affairs (and lots of things people do) are secret, to avoid interference. Anna says...IMO, Yes it was lust. Affairs are secret because there is shame because it is WRONG. snl stated...I suspect you have deliberately kept things from people too, cause you did not want interference, it is a normal human behaviour.I say...Deliberately kept things...ohhhh you mean LIE...FYI the word is LIE...no I haven't, maybe as a child I did but not as an adult, not for the reason you just gave to keep someone from interfering. Although I can't say I've never lied. Everyone has accept of course, Al Gore did say, "I have never told a lie" so maybe he's an exception. However, I ask God for forgiveness if I do mess up. snl stated...It is hard to respond to such rhetoric anna. It is not real, rape is rape, it is a violent personal crime. Part of the difficulty in dealing with marital disharmony is the inflammatory language used. The emotions are real, but the realities are mundane. There is nothing particularly noteworthy about the breakup of a pair relationship. It is an experience most have, often several times (or more. And always involves some amount of "betrayal" (for the simple reason the breakup generally will not occur without some shift of focus away from the partner). Some would say but it is MARRIAGE, that really makes no difference. The reality is people experience grief and a time of dislocation, and they continue on with life, often bonding with someone else, living happily ever after. There is no good outcome from rape. In fact if one removed the security and financial issues from divorce, it would probably be considerably less noteworthy alltogether. I say...It is not rhetoric, rape is rape, but a husband not giving a wife information she needs that could lead to her getting aids or other diseases, this would be the same emotions a person may have who was raped. Again, raped of her choice to assess the situation for herself. You are trying minimize the whole situation and what you did.I previously said in another post...
You took away her right to choose. She did not have a right to choose to kick a husband out who had physical contact with someone else.snl stated...Yes she did. I did not deny (except briefly) I had actually met the ow, I just refused to discuss it, she was free to take whatever action she wanted as a consequence. I also told her I would tell her all the truths in due time. No one owns anyone Anna. I have no obligation to tell anyone anything if I so choose not too. I told my w the truth cause I thought it fair to do so, I did it in my way in my time, and I am willing to experience the consequences of that action, what more can you ask of a human being?I say...I see men almost every day, but if I have sex with them while married it would have not been enough just for me to say I saw this person, I should tell my husband immediately. She is your wife, you had every obligation. Some of these things you type I can see how can you even type that and keep a straight face. snl stated...What more can I ask of a human being? I say...To be faithful, honest and take responsibility for their actions. I previously stated...
Most importantly she did not have the information she need to choose to sleep with you or not afterward. She was raped of the right to insure her safety and make sure you didn't get aids or another disease from Ms. Pure and Innocent. snl stated...I agree with the absolute right of someone to know these things. My w suspected the truth, I did everything but verify her suspicions, and I did not want any physical contact with her, she insisted, and she insisted quite forcefully. But be that as it may, I accept your chastisement that I did not give her all the facts so as to remove any doubt/hope she may have clung to re this matter. In a perfect world none of this would happen. In a perfect world every marriage would be "right" and happy and nurturing too, but the world is not perfect, and stuff is not always handled perfectly. But I am comfortable, my w willingly chose to hope there had been no physical contact, when she knew it was just denial. So yes, I decieved by ommission, but I did nothing to encourage her, or seduce her. I would have preferred she did not want physical contact with me. I told her I did not want it with her, but she would not take no for an answer, so must share at least in part with the outcome.I say...This whole paragraph sums up just how skewed your thinking is right now. It sums up just how you continue to blame her for your actions. You did not do everything you could. You were not honest with her on an important matter. You say she would not take no for answer. So what are you saying. She raped you? hmmmm? There you go again, not taking responsibiliy for your own actions. Unless she had a gun or knife to your head or is so much strong than you and strong armed you, then bull. You had a choice!snl stated....Once again I do not blame my w for anything, anymore than I blame myself, both are useless focus.....instead I seek to understand who I am, who she is, what this marriage is or is not, and whether it should continue....to that end by necessity I must discuss many things of a conflictual nature. This does not mean I think my wife is a witch. But the truth is she has for many years been an angry, critical, emotionally neglectful woman, who regularly attacked my self-worth, and said she wanted to divorce me...good or bad, those are just facts. It is why this happened (and vice versa re me from her viewpoint), that I am not just going to ignore. It needs to be understood. I say...Again, this paragraph says Blame, Blame, Blame! I see blame all through this paragraph.snl stated...Once again anna, I do not seek, nor do I need, validation. I have no intention of doing what anyone or everyone thinks I should in any regard, be it staying or leaveing, or anything in-between. Rationalist simply do not function that way, we literally do not care what anyone thinks, we only care about truth and understanding, and what is the better argument.I say...First yes I see you have no intention of following good advice, so what else is new. I retract my previous statement saying you could careless about how I or anyone else thinks. You care very much about validation and wanting people to see your points of view. IMO, you do not care about what the better argument is but about how to try to make your point so everyone will see your side.snl stated...I am human, and do experience from time to time feelings I would probably label guilt. But they play little role in the conduct of my life. Guilt is a poor reason to make decisions, or choose actions. It's primary use IMO is to get your attention, and encourage review of actions. Guilt may be "justified" but it can also be false. I feel very little guilt re this because I had been a loyal and faithful husband, I know I bear my w no ill-will, and my intentions for the ow were honorable (which is why my w is so distressed, she knows I am not capable of flings or using people, she knows I made committments arising out of legitimate feelings).I say...I beg to differ. You are capable of flings, you had a fling. You were not a loyal, faithful husband and can no longer use this term. However, in the future if you became the husband you need to be, and you are loyal and faithful, then in 5 years, you can say, "I have been a loyal, faithful husband for the past 5 years." snl stated...That is the problem anna, what does one do? If I can just "forget" the ow, and write her off as a no-good person, and my behaviour as lust....what does that say about me? And worse what does it say about any feelings for my w, are they also shallow, and I am just using her? You cannot have it both ways methinks. I say...BINGO!!! This is exactly why you can't face the truth. This is exactly my point. What does it say about you? It says you made a huge mistake. It says you were wrong. It says you need to make some changes in you as a person! It says you do have shallow feelings about your wife right now. It says you did not respect your wife. It says you are not being a good husband. It says you need to change and be a good husband and on and on and on. DANG SNL, you just said everything in this one paragraph, I didn't even have to.

snl stated...I do not think I am great, I am just a man trying to find his way out of a very confusing forest. I am not putting my w and family through anything, it is just life anna, are you suggesting I just lie? Put on a happy face, pretend I have no issues....to make their lives happier....is that what you would do? Are you emotionally honest anna, do you reveal your deepest feelings, or do you gaurd some?I say...Yes you are putting them through bad times. On your question regarding lying about being happy. HMMMM? You had no problem with lying about the affair for months...but, no, I'm not suggesting that. What I am suggesting is for you to admit what you did, tell your wife it was a bad choice and the wrong choice, say to your wife it will never happen again, take responsibility for the choices you made, then work on loving each other again.snl stated...I don't know what God wants for me, and you can be even less sure...right?I say...Wrong. I know exactly what God wants a husband to be. It says in the bible what he wants you to do. Christ makes it clear what God wants, he says for wants husbands to love their wives as the husband love their own bodies. He says for husbands to love their wives as he loves the church. (keep in my Christ died and shed is blood for the church) He says for husbands to be the spiritual leader of the family. Have you done this your entire marriage? Don't look at what she's done, just look at your responsibility.snl stated....I assume you realize you can't know this, but for the record (once again) I am do appropriate things, I am not doing everything folks would want.....why? Cause I am human, Im have a will, I am not a robot.I say...Does this mean you are not taking the Dr.'s advice totally? If so what parts are you doing? What parts are you ignoring? Be specific please. All that money is going down the drain if you don't follow it.I stated previously...
You are not trying. You are just holding on as long as you can. Before she can forgive you, you need to have full remorse. snl stated...If that is true, then I will never be forgiven. I made choices, they were in some ways the right choices, in other ways not, there is no possible way to paint this black and white.I say...It is black and white.snl stated...Do you mean just "do it", no matter how I feel, just do what others say I should? How does one do that anna, how do you do it? Don't you do what you want?I stated...crap or get off the pot. Pardon my rudeness.Doing what I want...not always. People have boundaries. Don't you have boundaries? Children, adults, Christians, every where you go we have boundaries. I do not do everything I want, especially if it is morally wrong.snl stated...Are you saying I don't have any responsibility to provide for her (implied by your use of word buying in place of my word responsible). As for her need for a faithful loving H, the problem is one cannot provide those things by choice. I can only choose to care for her, one does not need to be married to care. I cannot choose to romantically love her, that is beyond cognitive action, and it is that I seek to understand.I say...I'm saying you have more than just financial responsibility. Also, yes you can choose to love her or not love her. In marriages it's like the saying some people look at the glass half empty and some people look at the glass half full. You are looking at your marriage as the glass being half empty. You are nit picking at her faults and not seeing the beauty she has. snl stated...This is not the place to engage in a religious discussion, I have done so here and there a fair amount allready. I say...Well, I'm surprised you would say this as a Christian. This is the reason I first asked if you were a Christian, if you would have said Athiest I would try to keep religion out. However, I don't understand why a Christian does not factor in religion to healing your marriage. I too do not like debating religion on here, only because some people only debate for personal reasons instead of reasons to help me grow as a Christian, but, I never mind when a person brings up religion in a positive way after all I'm a Christian I want to hear what they have to say. None the less, this post was hard to keep away from religion as some of the questions you asked couldn't be avoided without it, but in the future I will do my best to stay away from the topic with you. Also, please note when you ask me personal about my marriage or me, sometimes I won't be able to answer this without using the bible.snl stated...I agree though if you are bonded in a oneflesh union with a spouse, the issue is is that what we have, or ever had. A marriage license is just a piece of paper, and vows made without understanding and requisite intent also are meaningless. Too many people approach this subject legalistically, and make the secular act of state sanctioned cohabitation (ie marriage) equate spirtitual marriage...it does not. Many people who think they are married, are not, they only have a piece of paper IMO. I realize that is a contentious position to take, but it is the only one I can take that reconcilles the facts I observe all around me, with what the Bible says about marriage, and my understanding of freewill.I say...you are shirking your responsibility by trying to reason illogically.

snl stated...I didn't lust anna. You are free to assess I am just denying. I say...Ok I assess you lusted.snl stated...But if you insist on calling attraction to someone lust, then I married my wife simply cause I lusted for her, is that why you married your H.....lust? I say...Ok, yes I insist and yes, one of my many emotions was I did lust after my husband before he was my husband. As the bible says though, but if they do not have self control let them marry, for it is better to marry than burn with passion.

snl stated...As for advice I give, if we all had to be perfect to give advice, guess there would not be much advice given. I speak mostly from a behavioural viewpoint, not a moral/ethical one....I deal in pragmatic actions and consequences. I say...IMO, almost every post I read from you only deals in self gratification and self motivation. Either by trying to get people to see your point of why you should be allowed to cheat and others shouldn't be or by trying to reason with how others who cheat was different than your own cheating.snl stated...Whether I have any good advice people must assess for themselves, however that does not make me a hypocrit.I say...I call a spade a spade.I previously stated...
Maybe your wife is right and you used to be a decent person, but you aren't anymore. When I read your posts and you try to figure out who you are by all the psychology bull crap you lay out, I can only think what a waste. snl stated...You see no value in introspection? No value in unraveling such important issues as the psychology behind human bonding? No value in contemplating the mental health consequences of forcing oneself to behave in opposition to, ones feelings? Even the matrital gurus pretty much advise against sacrificial marriage...do you disagree? If that is true, then I must find out wihether my w and I are enthusiastic about each other, cause if either of us is not, is just "doing it" we only hurt ourselves, why would that be a good thing?I say...I see a man taking a gift God gave him and burying this gift deep, deep into the ground with a bunch of bolony. I see a man searching for answers he will never find. I see someone wasting too much prescious time in life. I see someone who is so unhappy with life and I wonder if this person will ever "get it".I previously stated...
Put that time into your marriage. snl stated....That is what I am doing. I cannot remain married anna unless I feel and believe it is the right choice.I say...No you are not putting that time in your marriage. You are wasting valuable time. You could have been happy ages ago.snl....It is none of those anna. It is hard yes, but it is honest, fair, and I am being as compassionate as I can. But ya know anna, selfish as it may be, life is not just about my w, it is about me too, I do count, I am not just a fixture in anyone elses life.I say...you did, you have and you still are making your own misery. I'd say the way you see it it is all about "you, you, you", also the way I see it, everyone I know who has that "me" attitude are miserable. snl stated....Anna, I am honest, respectful, about very very difficult stuff, why is that abuse? It sounds to me like even having the thoughts and concerns I do you find offensive. How does one ever change anna? How does one ever understand why they are unahppy if they don't face stuff, how does one ever leave a marriage if they are unwilling to question the marriage? And if we will never leave it, then what is it? It is not love, it is not bonding, it is an obseessive focus on a picture, a legalistic ordering of our lives. I can't live that way anna, it is not who I am, it is not the way God crafted this Joseph.Honest??? Respectful???? HMMMMM, sorry don't see it. You may be in other ways but not currently with your marriage. I see a very critical person looking only at his wife's fault instead of his own.Also, all you are facing is the stuff you think your wife is doing. I have never read one post of you facing your faults. Where are those post? Could you put some of these as links on here? I'd sure like to read them. So far in my search, I can't find any.I previously stated...
Apologize to your wife, SNL, tell her sincerely what you did was wrong and you will not do it again.snl stated....I have, a number of times, and indeed I am fairly certain I will never choose to pursue love under the conditions we label an A.I say...Your apology as is means absolutely nothing to your wife, you might as well not say it. You always add a but. But I never did anything wrong, but there is no blame in life just life itself, but you ignored me, but I was justified in my actions. What kind of an apology is that?
snl....Does that mean respect can only come if I choose a particular path? Or does it come cause I weigh all the facts, and make a proactive choice regardless of that choice? Is respect the process, or the outcome?I say...So far I haven't seen you choose any particular path or seen you weigh all the facts. From what I've read on your posts I've seen you only blame.snl stated...You don't know her anna, you cannot possible have a useful opinion (good or bad). Maybe she rejected and abandoned me, maybe not, only she knows for sure. But she (and anyone involved in an A) if they have any ethics/morals at all (and yes, most of us do, we are no different than most of the bs, we are all just people), find themselves under enormous emotional/psychological pressure......and doing the "right" thing becomes very confusing. Was she scared, and lonely, and guilt-riden? Sure, does that make her a bad person? Seems more like makes her a good person, a normal person. On the other hand, maybe the conquest was over, the jig up, the w knows, time to move on, I have no reason to believe that.....but regardless of what the truth is about her, or me, neither of us tried in any way to make the other leave their spouse. As for having another affair, she had no need to tell me, I never would have known. Ya know anna, people are people, in all their infinite variety and fittings. It may serve a need for the bs to demonize the op, but that does not make it so. This is not the place to analyze the ow, she is gone now, the A is over, she is no more "guilty" than I, and I perhaps more so. I chose to act on my emotions, but I knew where this was all going to end up, not the details, not the intensity, but I knew the piper would have to be paid. I don't know yet whether the price was too high, but I think not, a lot of "work" needed to be done in a lot of lives. That may drive some of you nuts, but to an analyrtical type it makes perfect sense.I say...First, I don't think of you as analytical. IMO, an analytical type to be is a skilled analyst, one who would look at situation and break down the parts analysing each part with reason and logic. They would mark out all the garbage that doesn't pertain and apply the important information to assess the situation in all truth. Sorry, maybe you do, but I don't see it. Also, you can not justify a persons actions from any of the reasons you gave me. She is married, she had an affair with you. Did she ever own up to her affair to your wife? From what I see no. Has she ever apologized to you wife? From what I see 'no'? Again, I call a spade a spade. I don't know this person but God gave me a brain and from what I do know about her it's enough to tell me everythin. I sure wouldn't want this person as my friend. How could I trust such a person around my husband? NO THANKS!Thank-you for your effort....may I ask you a couple questions, would appreciate an in-depth answer, and one having to do only with you, not me.Of course you may.1. Why stay married?...assuming all the needs of your spouse are met.....financially, security, you remain available as extended family [yes an x is extended family]..... if two people are not passionately in love....why do you need to be married to "caringly" love each other?First, You can not fall out of love. Sure some times the passion is gone but you can choose to get it back. As God says, "Love never dies."Why stay married? Ok, I'll try to answer this without using religion since you don't want religion. If you choose to leave your spouse, unless the problem is dealing with physical abuse and your life is at risk, and you go into another marriage, once the honeymoon is over, you will be faced with problems once again. Some will be the same and then there will also be different. So, why not stay and work on the marriage you now have instead of go from marriage to marriage? You will still have the work to do.Also, you didn't want children factored in but let's face it. If you are going to work on a marriage anyway, why not work on the one with the wife that has your children.

2. Do you think feelings are important? Or do we just stay married to whoever we happened to marry in the ignorance of our youth, because of legalism (vows and committment etc.). I think if your reason is only because you are not happy. This is not a good enough reason. The only reason I would have ever considered getting out of my marriage is due to adultery or due to physical abuse. We make our own happiness. You can be happy, you choose not to.

3. If feelings are important, how do you (and why should you) act in opposition to your feelings?

Life is what you make it. You choose to be miserable. You can have both. Keeping your commitment and happiness.

4. If that is all marriage is...a struggle...why do it at all anna, why not just be single? What point is there to being married?

To me the point is obvious. It has to do with being a Christian first. Like I said before God says if you lust then marry, for this is best. Even if I weren't a Christian, I know what single life is. I know people who are single, they are usually lonely. Also, I want a partner for a lifetime. Having a partner is the greatest gift in life. I look at my neighbor who loved his wife until the day she died and he loved her. They didn't have a perfect marriage as he would say, but he said worth the joy of what they found together through the years. I Look at my grandfather and grandmother's relationship in awe. They had their problems but they knew their commitment and they survived to find a love that could not be described by any person. It's funny how the grass is always greener. When we were single wanting to be married and so many people when they are married seeing the single life to be best. Being single is so lonely. Why would anyone want to live their lives without a special person to live it with them forever. A person they would know if they ever got sick or was disabled that person would be there for them through it all.I think if some day your eyes are opened to what you did, and you told your wife this and promised you would never cheat on her again. If you then met her en's, she would automatically start meeting yours, then you would fall back in love with each other. You are just too pigheaded and stubborn to do this.Well, I want to write to you and tell you why I think I'm so passionate about your situation but will do this later as my fingers are now exhausted. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Take care,ANNA[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

SNL,Ok, couldn't leave with an unfinished job. So here it is, the reason why I am so passionate when it comes to post to you.Although my situation is different, there are many paralells.I was betrayed by physical abuse, your wife was betrayed by an affair. My husband gave a million reasons why he felt he should hit me over and over, didn't apologize for months and then only with "but's" in the apology. You did basically the same thing. My husband never took responsibility for his actions, you never took responsibility for your actions.I never trusted my husband to not do it again, your wife can not trust you to ever not do it again.Your wife never wanted a divorce due to religious reasons, (I'm assuming here) I never wanted a divorce due to religious reasons.Your marriage stands a chance of making it if you own up to what you do, my marriage could have some change too of making it if my husband would have owned up to what he did.My husband is now wallowing in self-pity and misery by himself, wishing he wouldn't have lost me, knowing there is nothing he can do now, but still can't face the facts because it's too much of a burden for him to bear. I can see some day you doing the same. I see you following the same course. I want you to "get it" before it's too late. I see a chance for you to open your eyes before she breaks and has absolutely no more feelings for you. Some day when you open your eyes, I see you being miserable for not getting it before it was too late.My husband never wanted a divorce, I know there's one difference here. He never thought he fell out of love with me, but there are an awful lot of similarities. Three years ago, I wanted a chance to try to forgive him for beating me up. I could never trust him, I could never commit to being his wife again, I knew if I gave my heart as I did in the past and he beat me up again, if he didn't kill me, psychologically I couldn't come back again. I think your wife feels the same way, she can't trust until you see what you did was wrong and confess. Here's what I needed from my husband to at least try to again.I needed these things.To unconditionally tell me he's sorry with no 'buts'. No more but you made me do it. But it was self defense (boloney! I wouldn't or couldn't hurt a flea) To say there was absolutely no excuses for what he did.To say he would never do this again. Under any circumstances and give me reasons why he would never.To say if I ever felt a threat he would leave immediately.To say he would get anger management and actually follow through.To then romance me and show me how much I actually meant to him. Instead he still wanted me to kiss his butt and be the wife I was before the abuse.Not everything I said, but alot of these are what your wife needs too in order for her to try to make the marriage work and give you 100%. Without these you might as well hit the road.Take care,ANNA[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

The affair awakened my eyes. H was honorable at one time but not now. The trust issue is not there. Yes, I feel I was used by H at the Retrouvaille weekend for couples. This was in April and H physical affair was in Feb. of 200l. I should of been told by H before we had sex during the Retrouvaille that he had sex with the other woman. I feel betrayed that I was not able to make my own decision with the affair of sex. H said he had sex with me, which on Friday night I went unwilling, cause caught H talking to OW on cellphone a couple of minutes before we were to leave, with IloveYou, 5 times, Hugs and Kisses on the phone. And don't try to call him cause he will call when he gets back. Anyways, he had sex that weekend to bond some, but as soon as we were back, no touching or nothing. I feel H lusted for the OW, with what he tells me. I feel he is justifying his affair. Why did she dump him, why is she back in her marriage? Why did she use my H? I feel betrayed and lost.The reason I put the weight issue in this thread, is she was 200# at one time, and he said she was a little chunky. H said, that I was getting a little chunky and it would of been an issue. He doesn't want me being heavy. But there was no issue with her fat, but with my fat it was an issue. I guess because she provided him with other things too. One being that heavy and losing 50# has a lot of lose skin, wrinkles and
flabbiness. I can't help but do the comparisons H has mentioned. This is a womans thing I think. At least I have more hair than her. Asked H to have tests done before to see if he has any communicable disease. Guess he will now. Cause of the issues I learned from the University of Michigan Hospital about AIDS. Would of been thoughtful on his part to have done this himself. But see, he sees the OW has a saint. He feels she has no disease. This woman slept with another man, who had many affairs. My detective said that there is a possibility of 3 of the OW having 3 affairs. H will only see her as a sensual, witty, loving woman. H does not see the bad in her. He can clearly state what he sees bad in me without any problem. Go through his threads, very little does he praise me. But he can over and over say the OW is an honorable woman. She is so honorable that she wants to keep this affair with my H a secret. If this OW is so honorable, and everything nice. What am I? I have had no sex beyond my H. I have had no affair at all. I live a christian life. I am a good mother to our kids. I am a caregiver. I find good in people. I love family. I love to be around people. I cater to H EN as well as other things. I look out for H, with appts. and etc. I don't keep secrets from my H. But I am just a woman he loves for being the mother of his children. Boy, that is the PITS! I wonder if I have an affair, well he think I am honorable, witty, smart, and trustworthy? She did and he feels so much for her, and not that much for me. These are my feelings, and so I am stating them. H will read them, and probably not like what I am saying. I do love this guy. I bought lemons to make him his special lemon meringue pie this weekend. It was promised for him on his birthday in Sept. But this is the first opportunity to make it. Anyways, thanks for listening to me.

Thinker,
Why do you love this guy?It is a very simple question. Can you answer it?

OK, thinker, this is your H's evil twin speaking, i say that as WE, my X and I, went through nearly the exact same situation both of you are facing, some differences, and after my analysis, i can clearly say, you two are following a similar path as we did, but not exactly, there will always be differences.I can see you two very clearly, from both points of view. However, this will be a long post, and i need to formulate it correctly, but I suspect that you have the most power to resolve your marriage, and you have the most to gain from the relationship.Will probably be later this weekend.in the meantime, everyone be prepared, it won't be pretty, and contrary to what has been posted on this thread, the key to a longer lasting solution to this dilemma lies with the ESFJ.WIFTTy

WIFT:Why the emphasis on personality types? Isn't a bit simplistic to think that somehow understanding another's personality type can resolve very complex situations such as thinkers?

Kat,not really because they come from two opposite poles of the spectrum in terms of thinking..
and reacting to things..and from reading both of SNL's and Wiffty's posts you will notice they come from the same side of that pole..and their wives from the opposite side..If you read Anna's post about what have they learned you will see what I am refering too

Why do I love this guy? We saw each other at a physical ed class that played volleyball after all the hard work was done. I had been going for quite a few months, and then he showed up. He was interesting to look at, and I ran with the men, woman were too slow for me. I am short, 5' 1 1/2" and I was a strong volleyball player. He wanted to keep himself physically in shape and that appealed to me. (as for now, he needs lots of work). He loved outdoors, exercise, outdoors activities, swimming, biking, outdoor games.We had a lot of interests, we would talk on the phone for hours, talk in the car, talk going on walks in the park. He loved to listen to certain music with me. He loved being around my family and doing family things. I enjoyed meeting his family as well. His grandmother lived in town, and I personally took to her. I didn't have a grandmother that spoke english. I loved her, she was a christian and she told me a lot of PSALMS. I loved his step-grandfather. H was interesting. He liked adventure, surprises, loved little kids, liked challenges, liked to go out to eat, went to a few concerts, went to movies. He liked animals. My love is still there for my H. He is the father of our children. He is the one I looked up to for help. He helped me get through nursing school emotionally. I think he liked that I was frugal with money. We came into this marriage with my banking account. My H has the most beautiful deep brown eyes. He has this big bear body, smirkey smile that is mischevious yet soothing. He knows how to meet my EN's, I want to meet his. I think I can except for intellectual conversation. I don't mind some debate, but I can't defend myself with H. We fit in many ways, I see where he is lacking, and I fulfill that position. H sees where I am lacking and fills that position. I ask him for directions if needed. I ask him financial advice. I ask him to fix something if I can't fix it myself. We both love to read, I am beginning to use the computer more, and am thinking of taking computer classes at a local community college. Found out about the classes last week. I like to learn new things. H and I talked today about finding happy fun things to do. I am a doer, and finding it hard to find something fun to do when all this work is laying around. My paperwork is so behind, since my surgery 3 weeks ago. Got severely behind and can't seem to get motivated to plunge into the pile. Part of the problem is paying bills. Hate to send this money out in envelopes. Money issues are hard to deal with. So when it comes to big money issues, he has to take over. We bought stocks, it drives me crazy to hear H sigh, when we lost. I personally couldn't be a stock broker. I love his person, he makes me smile, he makes me sad. He has actually become better at showing concern for my father. H loves the kids even if he gets downright mad at them sometimes. We used to play games with the kids when they were little a lot at night. I love to see and hear his vehicle drive in the driveway. I love to hear his voice on the phone. It makes me feel warm. Would love H to write me a poem. I would love to be in a christian study group together. When we met, I was in the Navigators group. He admired me for that, my H admired me for my artistic value. My medical background. H made me feel important. Seems when the kids came, I was not that important. That is what I feel. Since we have been doing the 15 hour a week thing, I am starting to feel a little important to him. I still feel H gets angry inside, (holds it) when I want to go to my parents to see how my dad is doing. But he is showing more concern. Today I talked to a customer that his father-in-law had cancer of the jaw. They replaced the jaw with hip bone, and had radiation and chemotherap. He is recovered and well so far. So I was interested in his conversation, and the customer was sorry to hear about my dad, and when we left he said he will keep him in his prayers. I am interesting to talk to, and H is interesting to talk to. I feel I am rattling on. I feel the in-love with my H some, I feel the fitting, and I feel we still do fit to some degree. The personality point, we are not identical, but he knew we were different when we met. I feel he sees me as not good enough and throw me out and go for the new. As far as vows, I married for love, committment, life till death does us apart. I can honestly say, that is not a positive thing I see in H. He as you can read, does not believe in vows, marriage, committment, or till death does us apart. I wonder if the OW feels the same way my H does. When you tire of the present spouse, go look for greener grass. After all she has done it twice.What is ESF? Am learning the abbreviations, but don't know this one. Been a long day, going to take a hot shower and chill out for the night.

Thinker, I would like to apologize if I offended you in anyway about the conversational needs--it wasn't meant to offend..And I do understand the frustrations of someone arguing a topic when there is nothing to argue..when you can just agree to disagree.Your blest that you had help w/ emotional support during nursing school..I know I couldn't pronounce most of those medical terms..LOL...I know this as fact..I used to help my sister study and I couldn't pronounce them, she used to laugh at me..but, it wasn't a topic that interested me so I didn't put much thought into it..but she actually did better on the tests- because she would associate the words on the test to how I pronounced them..

Thorned Rose - I know I am not stupid, but when one puts words in the wrong way when one feels crappy, things don't come out right. I value your statements, and feel H is only here for a little while. He is trying to work on the marriage in his own way, but it is not the way of MB. Therefore I see only divorce or separation ahead. That is why Jennifer is having H talk with Steve. She doesn't know what else to do. Things are pretty dismal here.

Thinker, I do understand when someone tries to put words in your mouth and make it sound like your saying something your not..and trying to make you think you are doing something wrong when your not..
making you think that your motives for doing something are wrong..getting you to second guess yourself..when you shouldn't..My dad was a master manipulater this way..as is stbx..But, I am learning..yes, some of these were my own insecurities..from childhood..that stbxh played on..and my dad used to get his way..and they are also their own insecurities they are projecting on to you..ie..You said in one of your posts that SNL doesn't like talking to the customers..he prefers you to do this..why do you think he doesn't like to do it?? It may be because he is insecure with how to carry on a basic conversation..I notice he loves to debate issues, and discuss things on a
certain level..and in a business setting..such as dealing with a customer..it's not the same type of conversational skills required..there is no debate required to explain what is wrong w/ an electric heater,an a/c or heatpump..this is what we found, this is what needs to be done to fix it..no debate..most customers don't understand the in's and out's of a heatpump and don't care..they want to know..is it working?? and if not..what needs to be done to get it working again..if it needs to be replaced..okay..what brand and size would you recommend?? Trane, Carrier, or something else..I'm sure you use some type of work order..maybe he can write out on the work order what he wants said to the customer..so that when you make your calls you can tell them..(they will probably be like huh?) then you can explain it in simplier terms what it means..

Oh well, thinker,
Personally, I believe your marriage is far from over... Just my humble opinion from the outside looking in. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]