Thinker-One of the messages with talking with the Harleys, is trusting can come back when the WS is totally committed to the marriage. No, holding back, no considering POJA subjects, totally protecting the BS, totally concentrating on the marriage and BS. We don't have this yet, so I do not trust my H. I feel he will wander when the grass shows greener somewhere else. H looks a woman up and down pretty good.<p>TR-This is true, he has to show you by his actions not just his words that he wants to be there 100%
just as you need to show him by your actions and not just your words that you want him there 100%<p>Thinker- If I was the WS I would turn my head the other way, and say God help me.<p>TR- You really can't say what you would do since you have not been the WS, though you can speculate what you hope you would do, and what you would like SNL to do to show you he's 100% there..<p>Thinker-The reason I have OW in my conversations, is she has controlled almost everynight one dream. I am telling her we will tell her H, I usually do something like pull her hair, (H said she was balding), I kick her in the butt, because of the position she is in, or I take both their clothes and run out of the door, or something like that.<p>TR- I think we all think of things we would LOVE to do..because we want to do something..to gain some control back of our lives..and doing these things would give you some control. Or Power if you will..it sounds like you feel powerless, helpless, as if you have no control..well, your right..you have no control over him or her..what they think, feel, do. you only have control over your own actions, thoughts and feelings..and this is very difficult to accept..<p>You can not stop him from thinking, or feeling what he does towards OW..You have no control of those things..only he does..You can't stop him from going to see OW, or talking to OW, You don't control that..he's not a puppet on a string..to do your bidding..just as you are not a puppet on a string to do his..you have thoughts, feelings, and such of your own..and he can't stop you from having them..<p>But, there are things you can do something about..you can work to change your own thoughts
and learn to accept your feelings as just that..YOUR feelings..he doesn't have to feel the same way you do..just as you don't have to feel the same way he does..and accept that it's ok to feel differently about things..<p>There are things he can do to help - acknowledge to you that yes, you feel hurt, angry, betrayed and it's okay that you feel that way..but he is not required to 'feel' those same feelings, because they are yours not his..<p>
Thinker- I feel it is part of the suicide attempt she placed on me in the 3 conversations I had with her. (She called and talked to only me). <p>TR- She threatened to kill herself? How is that YOUR problem? If she kills herself, that is her choice..not yours..again..you have no control over what she does or says..only how you react..<p>Thinker-And when I asked her a question it was 'I don't know', she controlled the conversation totally, and this makes me so mad now. I am the BS and let this awful woman control the conversation. <p>TR- She didn't control the conversation with her 'i don't know' she avoided the questions with that answer- sounds like she didn't want to accept responsibility for her own actions..and you wanted her to..so it's understandable your upset about it..<p>Thinker-I hate the fact that my H is her dirty little secret, but if that is what she wants, she has to live with it. <p>TR- why do you hate that he is "her" dirty little secret?? It's her secret, not yours..you are NOT responsible for her secrets..yes you could contact her husband and tell him everything..but that doesn't mean she will 'admit' to it..but, it's her responsibility to own up to her own sins..not yours to stand there and shout out that she did this or she did that..(look at it in reverse
would want every thing you've done and were ashamed of spread around by others? or would you want to be the one who decides who to tell, and who not to tell? and when to tell?)<p>Thinker-I also, don't know how my H fell for her, and it hurts. She once was 200#, she is patchy bald<p>TR-So what she was once 200# what does that have to do with anything?? So she has many bad hair days..<p>Thinker- she is sexually more alive than me, and she is still overweight. <p>TR- Why do you think you are not as sexually alive as her? I'm not looking for the answer because SNL said she was..I am asking why do 'you'
think your not as sexually alive? What do you think stops you from being that way? and what do you deem as overweight? And what does one's weight have to do with it?<p>Thinker-But he liked her conversation.<p>TR- What types of things did they discuss? Did she challenge him to dig deep within himself? Did she ask questions that made him have to really think?
Did they talk about topics that you would be interested in learning? That would challenge your own knowledge and make you look within yourself or elsewhere to find the answer? Something that required serious thought and contemplation? And not just idle chit chat? From reading SNL's posts
he likes to have very intelectual conversations
that require more than a yes or no answer..and require some deep thought and contemplation before an answer is given..<p>Thinker- But it still hurts. I am trying to get her out, but like you said the hurt will not disappear. Until things are resolved here. And the hurt will be with me for a long time. Maybe just not as severe as now.<p>TR- I'm sure it still hurts very much..she was able to meet these conversational needs your husband has that you have not been able to meet for whatever reasons, be it you don't like conversations that require alot of thought, or you have just been to busy with the day to day things of life that you don't have them anymore- but the truth is that through these conversations, they formed a very strong emotional bond..which is probably what attracted him to her where he could put aside her physical appearance..<p>So, I guess a challenge for you would be to try and meet this need for him..if you aren't knowledgeable on many topics (which I don't believe is the case) then look things up..search out the answers ask him questions and if he gives you an answer your not sure about..research the topic further..and get your own answer..it's not that you don't respect his answer..you just want to find it for yourself..and thats okay..it allows you to work on yourself, and gain knowledge of a topic your interested in..

SNL,<p>Here are my latest comments to your comments in bold.<p>Fair warning, I did not sugar coat my answers. I will not lie to you about how I feel.<p>snl stated...I don't understand what you mean by blame. I have never done anything but take responsibility for my actions. What does taking blame look like? <p>I say...You are suggesting through each of your post your wife was responsible for your affair. You never really come right out and say it but time and time again you say through your words she made me do it.<p>snl stated...It was not lust anna, if lust drove me I would have had an affair long long ago. As for secrecy, that is just the truth, it is the reason affairs (and lots of things people do) are secret, to avoid interference. <p>Anna says...IMO, Yes it was lust. Affairs are secret because there is shame because it is WRONG. <p>snl stated...I suspect you have deliberately kept things from people too, cause you did not want interference, it is a normal human behaviour.<p>I say...Deliberately kept things...ohhhh you mean LIE...FYI the word is LIE...no I haven't, maybe as a child I did but not as an adult, not for the reason you just gave to keep someone from interfering. Although I can't say I've never lied. Everyone has accept of course, Al Gore did say, "I have never told a lie" so maybe he's an exception. However, I ask God for forgiveness if I do mess up. <p>snl stated...It is hard to respond to such rhetoric anna. It is not real, rape is rape, it is a violent personal crime. Part of the difficulty in dealing with marital disharmony is the inflammatory language used. The emotions are real, but the realities are mundane. There is nothing particularly noteworthy about the breakup of a pair relationship. It is an experience most have, often several times (or more. And always involves some amount of "betrayal" (for the simple reason the breakup generally will not occur without some shift of focus away from the partner). Some would say but it is MARRIAGE, that really makes no difference. The reality is people experience grief and a time of dislocation, and they continue on with life, often bonding with someone else, living happily ever after. There is no good outcome from rape. In fact if one removed the security and financial issues from divorce, it would probably be considerably less noteworthy alltogether. <p>I say...It is not rhetoric, rape is rape, but a husband not giving a wife information she needs that could lead to her getting aids or other diseases, this would be the same emotions a person may have who was raped. Again, raped of her choice to assess the situation for herself. You are trying minimize the whole situation and what you did.<p>I previously said in another post...
You took away her right to choose. She did not have a right to choose to kick a husband out who had physical contact with someone else.<p>snl stated...Yes she did. I did not deny (except briefly) I had actually met the ow, I just refused to discuss it, she was free to take whatever action she wanted as a consequence. I also told her I would tell her all the truths in due time. No one owns anyone Anna. I have no obligation to tell anyone anything if I so choose not too. I told my w the truth cause I thought it fair to do so, I did it in my way in my time, and I am willing to experience the consequences of that action, what more can you ask of a human being?<p>I say...I see men almost every day, but if I have sex with them while married it would have not been enough just for me to say I saw this person, I should tell my husband immediately. She is your wife, you had every obligation. Some of these things you type I can see how can you even type that and keep a straight face. <p>snl stated...What more can I ask of a human being? <p>I say...To be faithful, honest and take responsibility for their actions. <p>I previously stated...
Most importantly she did not have the information she need to choose to sleep with you or not afterward. She was raped of the right to insure her safety and make sure you didn't get aids or another disease from Ms. Pure and Innocent. <p>snl stated...I agree with the absolute right of someone to know these things. My w suspected the truth, I did everything but verify her suspicions, and I did not want any physical contact with her, she insisted, and she insisted quite forcefully. But be that as it may, I accept your chastisement that I did not give her all the facts so as to remove any doubt/hope she may have clung to re this matter. In a perfect world none of this would happen. In a perfect world every marriage would be "right" and happy and nurturing too, but the world is not perfect, and stuff is not always handled perfectly. But I am comfortable, my w willingly chose to hope there had been no physical contact, when she knew it was just denial. So yes, I decieved by ommission, but I did nothing to encourage her, or seduce her. I would have preferred she did not want physical contact with me. I told her I did not want it with her, but she would not take no for an answer, so must share at least in part with the outcome.<p>I say...This whole paragraph sums up just how skewed your thinking is right now. It sums up just how you continue to blame her for your actions. You did not do everything you could. You were not honest with her on an important matter. You say she would not take no for answer. So what are you saying. She raped you? hmmmm? There you go again, not taking responsibiliy for your own actions. Unless she had a gun or knife to your head or is so much strong than you and strong armed you, then bull. You had a choice!<p>snl stated....Once again I do not blame my w for anything, anymore than I blame myself, both are useless focus.....instead I seek to understand who I am, who she is, what this marriage is or is not, and whether it should continue....to that end by necessity I must discuss many things of a conflictual nature. This does not mean I think my wife is a witch. But the truth is she has for many years been an angry, critical, emotionally neglectful woman, who regularly attacked my self-worth, and said she wanted to divorce me...good or bad, those are just facts. It is why this happened (and vice versa re me from her viewpoint), that I am not just going to ignore. It needs to be understood.<p> I say...Again, this paragraph says Blame, Blame, Blame! I see blame all through this paragraph.<p>snl stated...Once again anna, I do not seek, nor do I need, validation. I have no intention of doing what anyone or everyone thinks I should in any regard, be it staying or leaveing, or anything in-between. Rationalist simply do not function that way, we literally do not care what anyone thinks, we only care about truth and understanding, and what is the better argument.<p>I say...First yes I see you have no intention of following good advice, so what else is new. I retract my previous statement saying you could careless about how I or anyone else thinks. You care very much about validation and wanting people to see your points of view. IMO, you do not care about what the better argument is but about how to try to make your point so everyone will see your side.<p>snl stated...I am human, and do experience from time to time feelings I would probably label guilt. But they play little role in the conduct of my life. Guilt is a poor reason to make decisions, or choose actions. It's primary use IMO is to get your attention, and encourage review of actions. Guilt may be "justified" but it can also be false. I feel very little guilt re this because I had been a loyal and faithful husband, I know I bear my w no ill-will, and my intentions for the ow were honorable (which is why my w is so distressed, she knows I am not capable of flings or using people, she knows I made committments arising out of legitimate feelings).<p>I say...I beg to differ. You are capable of flings, you had a fling. You were not a loyal, faithful husband and can no longer use this term. However, in the future if you became the husband you need to be, and you are loyal and faithful, then in 5 years, you can say, "I have been a loyal, faithful husband for the past 5 years." <p>snl stated...That is the problem anna, what does one do? If I can just "forget" the ow, and write her off as a no-good person, and my behaviour as lust....what does that say about me? And worse what does it say about any feelings for my w, are they also shallow, and I am just using her? You cannot have it both ways methinks. <p>I say...BINGO!!! This is exactly why you can't face the truth. This is exactly my point. What does it say about you? It says you made a huge mistake. It says you were wrong. It says you need to make some changes in you as a person! It says you do have shallow feelings about your wife right now. It says you did not respect your wife. It says you are not being a good husband. It says you need to change and be a good husband and on and on and on. DANG SNL, you just said everything in this one paragraph, I didn't even have to.

snl stated...I do not think I am great, I am just a man trying to find his way out of a very confusing forest. I am not putting my w and family through anything, it is just life anna, are you suggesting I just lie? Put on a happy face, pretend I have no issues....to make their lives happier....is that what you would do? Are you emotionally honest anna, do you reveal your deepest feelings, or do you gaurd some?<p>I say...Yes you are putting them through bad times. On your question regarding lying about being happy. HMMMM? You had no problem with lying about the affair for months...but, no, I'm not suggesting that. What I am suggesting is for you to admit what you did, tell your wife it was a bad choice and the wrong choice, say to your wife it will never happen again, take responsibility for the choices you made, then work on loving each other again.<p>snl stated...I don't know what God wants for me, and you can be even less sure...right?<p>I say...Wrong. I know exactly what God wants a husband to be. It says in the bible what he wants you to do. Christ makes it clear what God wants, he says for wants husbands to love their wives as the husband love their own bodies. He says for husbands to love their wives as he loves the church. (keep in my Christ died and shed is blood for the church) He says for husbands to be the spiritual leader of the family. Have you done this your entire marriage? Don't look at what she's done, just look at your responsibility.<p>snl stated....I assume you realize you can't know this, but for the record (once again) I am do appropriate things, I am not doing everything folks would want.....why? Cause I am human, Im have a will, I am not a robot.<p>I say...Does this mean you are not taking the Dr.'s advice totally? If so what parts are you doing? What parts are you ignoring? Be specific please. All that money is going down the drain if you don't follow it.<p>I stated previously...
You are not trying. You are just holding on as long as you can. Before she can forgive you, you need to have full remorse. <p>snl stated...If that is true, then I will never be forgiven. I made choices, they were in some ways the right choices, in other ways not, there is no possible way to paint this black and white.<p>I say...It is black and white.<p>snl stated...Do you mean just "do it", no matter how I feel, just do what others say I should? How does one do that anna, how do you do it? Don't you do what you want?<p>I stated...crap or get off the pot. Pardon my rudeness.<p>Doing what I want...not always. People have boundaries. Don't you have boundaries? Children, adults, Christians, every where you go we have boundaries. I do not do everything I want, especially if it is morally wrong.<p>snl stated...Are you saying I don't have any responsibility to provide for her (implied by your use of word buying in place of my word responsible). As for her need for a faithful loving H, the problem is one cannot provide those things by choice. I can only choose to care for her, one does not need to be married to care. I cannot choose to romantically love her, that is beyond cognitive action, and it is that I seek to understand.<p>I say...I'm saying you have more than just financial responsibility. Also, yes you can choose to love her or not love her. In marriages it's like the saying some people look at the glass half empty and some people look at the glass half full. You are looking at your marriage as the glass being half empty. You are nit picking at her faults and not seeing the beauty she has. <p>snl stated...This is not the place to engage in a religious discussion, I have done so here and there a fair amount allready. <p>I say...Well, I'm surprised you would say this as a Christian. This is the reason I first asked if you were a Christian, if you would have said Athiest I would try to keep religion out. However, I don't understand why a Christian does not factor in religion to healing your marriage. I too do not like debating religion on here, only because some people only debate for personal reasons instead of reasons to help me grow as a Christian, but, I never mind when a person brings up religion in a positive way after all I'm a Christian I want to hear what they have to say. None the less, this post was hard to keep away from religion as some of the questions you asked couldn't be avoided without it, but in the future I will do my best to stay away from the topic with you. Also, please note when you ask me personal about my marriage or me, sometimes I won't be able to answer this without using the bible.<p>snl stated...I agree though if you are bonded in a oneflesh union with a spouse, the issue is is that what we have, or ever had. A marriage license is just a piece of paper, and vows made without understanding and requisite intent also are meaningless. Too many people approach this subject legalistically, and make the secular act of state sanctioned cohabitation (ie marriage) equate spirtitual marriage...it does not. Many people who think they are married, are not, they only have a piece of paper IMO. I realize that is a contentious position to take, but it is the only one I can take that reconcilles the facts I observe all around me, with what the Bible says about marriage, and my understanding of freewill.<p>I say...you are shirking your responsibility by trying to reason illogically.

snl stated...I didn't lust anna. You are free to assess I am just denying. <p>I say...Ok I assess you lusted.<p>snl stated...But if you insist on calling attraction to someone lust, then I married my wife simply cause I lusted for her, is that why you married your H.....lust? <p>I say...Ok, yes I insist and yes, one of my many emotions was I did lust after my husband before he was my husband. As the bible says though, but if they do not have self control let them marry, for it is better to marry than burn with passion.

snl stated...As for advice I give, if we all had to be perfect to give advice, guess there would not be much advice given. I speak mostly from a behavioural viewpoint, not a moral/ethical one....I deal in pragmatic actions and consequences. <p> I say...IMO, almost every post I read from you only deals in self gratification and self motivation. Either by trying to get people to see your point of why you should be allowed to cheat and others shouldn't be or by trying to reason with how others who cheat was different than your own cheating.<p>snl stated...Whether I have any good advice people must assess for themselves, however that does not make me a hypocrit.<p>I say...I call a spade a spade.<p>I previously stated...
Maybe your wife is right and you used to be a decent person, but you aren't anymore. When I read your posts and you try to figure out who you are by all the psychology bull crap you lay out, I can only think what a waste. <p>snl stated...You see no value in introspection? No value in unraveling such important issues as the psychology behind human bonding? No value in contemplating the mental health consequences of forcing oneself to behave in opposition to, ones feelings? Even the matrital gurus pretty much advise against sacrificial marriage...do you disagree? If that is true, then I must find out wihether my w and I are enthusiastic about each other, cause if either of us is not, is just "doing it" we only hurt ourselves, why would that be a good thing?<p>I say...I see a man taking a gift God gave him and burying this gift deep, deep into the ground with a bunch of bolony. I see a man searching for answers he will never find. I see someone wasting too much prescious time in life. I see someone who is so unhappy with life and I wonder if this person will ever "get it".<p>I previously stated...
Put that time into your marriage. <p>snl stated....That is what I am doing. I cannot remain married anna unless I feel and believe it is the right choice.<p>I say...No you are not putting that time in your marriage. You are wasting valuable time. You could have been happy ages ago.<p>snl....It is none of those anna. It is hard yes, but it is honest, fair, and I am being as compassionate as I can. But ya know anna, selfish as it may be, life is not just about my w, it is about me too, I do count, I am not just a fixture in anyone elses life.<p>I say...you did, you have and you still are making your own misery. I'd say the way you see it it is all about "you, you, you", also the way I see it, everyone I know who has that "me" attitude are miserable. <p>snl stated....Anna, I am honest, respectful, about very very difficult stuff, why is that abuse? It sounds to me like even having the thoughts and concerns I do you find offensive. How does one ever change anna? How does one ever understand why they are unahppy if they don't face stuff, how does one ever leave a marriage if they are unwilling to question the marriage? And if we will never leave it, then what is it? It is not love, it is not bonding, it is an obseessive focus on a picture, a legalistic ordering of our lives. I can't live that way anna, it is not who I am, it is not the way God crafted this Joseph.<p>Honest??? Respectful???? HMMMMM, sorry don't see it. You may be in other ways but not currently with your marriage. I see a very critical person looking only at his wife's fault instead of his own.<p>Also, all you are facing is the stuff you think your wife is doing. I have never read one post of you facing your faults. Where are those post? Could you put some of these as links on here? I'd sure like to read them. So far in my search, I can't find any.<p>I previously stated...
Apologize to your wife, SNL, tell her sincerely what you did was wrong and you will not do it again.<p>snl stated....I have, a number of times, and indeed I am fairly certain I will never choose to pursue love under the conditions we label an A.<p>I say...Your apology as is means absolutely nothing to your wife, you might as well not say it. You always add a but. But I never did anything wrong, but there is no blame in life just life itself, but you ignored me, but I was justified in my actions. What kind of an apology is that?
<p>snl....Does that mean respect can only come if I choose a particular path? Or does it come cause I weigh all the facts, and make a proactive choice regardless of that choice? Is respect the process, or the outcome?<p>I say...So far I haven't seen you choose any particular path or seen you weigh all the facts. From what I've read on your posts I've seen you only blame.<p>snl stated...You don't know her anna, you cannot possible have a useful opinion (good or bad). Maybe she rejected and abandoned me, maybe not, only she knows for sure. But she (and anyone involved in an A) if they have any ethics/morals at all (and yes, most of us do, we are no different than most of the bs, we are all just people), find themselves under enormous emotional/psychological pressure......and doing the "right" thing becomes very confusing. Was she scared, and lonely, and guilt-riden? Sure, does that make her a bad person? Seems more like makes her a good person, a normal person. On the other hand, maybe the conquest was over, the jig up, the w knows, time to move on, I have no reason to believe that.....but regardless of what the truth is about her, or me, neither of us tried in any way to make the other leave their spouse. As for having another affair, she had no need to tell me, I never would have known. Ya know anna, people are people, in all their infinite variety and fittings. It may serve a need for the bs to demonize the op, but that does not make it so. This is not the place to analyze the ow, she is gone now, the A is over, she is no more "guilty" than I, and I perhaps more so. I chose to act on my emotions, but I knew where this was all going to end up, not the details, not the intensity, but I knew the piper would have to be paid. I don't know yet whether the price was too high, but I think not, a lot of "work" needed to be done in a lot of lives. That may drive some of you nuts, but to an analyrtical type it makes perfect sense.<p>I say...First, I don't think of you as analytical. IMO, an analytical type to be is a skilled analyst, one who would look at situation and break down the parts analysing each part with reason and logic. They would mark out all the garbage that doesn't pertain and apply the important information to assess the situation in all truth. Sorry, maybe you do, but I don't see it. <p>Also, you can not justify a persons actions from any of the reasons you gave me. She is married, she had an affair with you. Did she ever own up to her affair to your wife? From what I see no. Has she ever apologized to you wife? From what I see 'no'? Again, I call a spade a spade. I don't know this person but God gave me a brain and from what I do know about her it's enough to tell me everythin. I sure wouldn't want this person as my friend. How could I trust such a person around my husband? NO THANKS!<p>Thank-you for your effort....may I ask you a couple questions, would appreciate an in-depth answer, and one having to do only with you, not me.<p>Of course you may.<p>1. Why stay married?...assuming all the needs of your spouse are met.....financially, security, you remain available as extended family [yes an x is extended family]..... if two people are not passionately in love....why do you need to be married to "caringly" love each other?<p>First, You can not fall out of love. Sure some times the passion is gone but you can choose to get it back. As God says, "Love never dies."<p>Why stay married? Ok, I'll try to answer this without using religion since you don't want religion. <p>If you choose to leave your spouse, unless the problem is dealing with physical abuse and your life is at risk, and you go into another marriage, once the honeymoon is over, you will be faced with problems once again. Some will be the same and then there will also be different. So, why not stay and work on the marriage you now have instead of go from marriage to marriage? You will still have the work to do.<p>Also, you didn't want children factored in but let's face it. If you are going to work on a marriage anyway, why not work on the one with the wife that has your children.

2. Do you think feelings are important? Or do we just stay married to whoever we happened to marry in the ignorance of our youth, because of legalism (vows and committment etc.).<p> I think if your reason is only because you are not happy. This is not a good enough reason. The only reason I would have ever considered getting out of my marriage is due to adultery or due to physical abuse. <p>We make our own happiness. You can be happy, you choose not to.

3. If feelings are important, how do you (and why should you) act in opposition to your feelings?

Life is what you make it. You choose to be miserable. You can have both. Keeping your commitment and happiness.

4. If that is all marriage is...a struggle...why do it at all anna, why not just be single? What point is there to being married?

To me the point is obvious. It has to do with being a Christian first. Like I said before God says if you lust then marry, for this is best. Even if I weren't a Christian, I know what single life is. I know people who are single, they are usually lonely. Also, I want a partner for a lifetime. <p>Having a partner is the greatest gift in life. I look at my neighbor who loved his wife until the day she died and he loved her. They didn't have a perfect marriage as he would say, but he said worth the joy of what they found together through the years. I Look at my grandfather and grandmother's relationship in awe. They had their problems but they knew their commitment and they survived to find a love that could not be described by any person. <p>It's funny how the grass is always greener. When we were single wanting to be married and so many people when they are married seeing the single life to be best. Being single is so lonely. Why would anyone want to live their lives without a special person to live it with them forever. A person they would know if they ever got sick or was disabled that person would be there for them through it all.<p>I think if some day your eyes are opened to what you did, and you told your wife this and promised you would never cheat on her again. If you then met her en's, she would automatically start meeting yours, then you would fall back in love with each other. You are just too pigheaded and stubborn to do this.<p>Well, I want to write to you and tell you why I think I'm so passionate about your situation but will do this later as my fingers are now exhausted. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Take care,<p>ANNA<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

SNL,<p>Ok, couldn't leave with an unfinished job. So here it is, the reason why I am so passionate when it comes to post to you.<p>Although my situation is different, there are many paralells.<p>I was betrayed by physical abuse, your wife was betrayed by an affair. <p>My husband gave a million reasons why he felt he should hit me over and over, didn't apologize for months and then only with "but's" in the apology. You did basically the same thing. <p>My husband never took responsibility for his actions, you never took responsibility for your actions.<p>I never trusted my husband to not do it again, your wife can not trust you to ever not do it again.<p>Your wife never wanted a divorce due to religious reasons, (I'm assuming here) I never wanted a divorce due to religious reasons.<p>Your marriage stands a chance of making it if you own up to what you do, my marriage could have some change too of making it if my husband would have owned up to what he did.<p>My husband is now wallowing in self-pity and misery by himself, wishing he wouldn't have lost me, knowing there is nothing he can do now, but still can't face the facts because it's too much of a burden for him to bear. I can see some day you doing the same. <p>I see you following the same course. I want you to "get it" before it's too late. I see a chance for you to open your eyes before she breaks and has absolutely no more feelings for you. Some day when you open your eyes, I see you being miserable for not getting it before it was too late.<p>My husband never wanted a divorce, I know there's one difference here. He never thought he fell out of love with me, but there are an awful lot of similarities. Three years ago, I wanted a chance to try to forgive him for beating me up. I could never trust him, I could never commit to being his wife again, I knew if I gave my heart as I did in the past and he beat me up again, if he didn't kill me, psychologically I couldn't come back again. I think your wife feels the same way, she can't trust until you see what you did was wrong and confess. Here's what I needed from my husband to at least try to again.<p>I needed these things.<p>To unconditionally tell me he's sorry with no 'buts'. No more but you made me do it. But it was self defense (boloney! I wouldn't or couldn't hurt a flea) <p>To say there was absolutely no excuses for what he did.<p>To say he would never do this again. Under any circumstances and give me reasons why he would never.<p>To say if I ever felt a threat he would leave immediately.<p>To say he would get anger management and actually follow through.<p>To then romance me and show me how much I actually meant to him. Instead he still wanted me to kiss his butt and be the wife I was before the abuse.<p>Not everything I said, but alot of these are what your wife needs too in order for her to try to make the marriage work and give you 100%. Without these you might as well hit the road.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

The affair awakened my eyes. H was honorable at one time but not now. The trust issue is not there. Yes, I feel I was used by H at the Retrouvaille weekend for couples. This was in April and H physical affair was in Feb. of 200l. I should of been told by H before we had sex during the Retrouvaille that he had sex with the other woman. I feel betrayed that I was not able to make my own decision with the affair of sex. H said he had sex with me, which on Friday night I went unwilling, cause caught H talking to OW on cellphone a couple of minutes before we were to leave, with IloveYou, 5 times, Hugs and Kisses on the phone. And don't try to call him cause he will call when he gets back. Anyways, he had sex that weekend to bond some, but as soon as we were back, no touching or nothing. <p>I feel H lusted for the OW, with what he tells me. I feel he is justifying his affair. Why did she dump him, why is she back in her marriage? Why did she use my H? I feel betrayed and lost.<p>The reason I put the weight issue in this thread, is she was 200# at one time, and he said she was a little chunky. H said, that I was getting a little chunky and it would of been an issue. He doesn't want me being heavy. But there was no issue with her fat, but with my fat it was an issue. I guess because she provided him with other things too. One being that heavy and losing 50# has a lot of lose skin, wrinkles and
flabbiness. I can't help but do the comparisons H has mentioned. This is a womans thing I think. At least I have more hair than her. <p>Asked H to have tests done before to see if he has any communicable disease. Guess he will now. Cause of the issues I learned from the University of Michigan Hospital about AIDS. Would of been thoughtful on his part to have done this himself. But see, he sees the OW has a saint. He feels she has no disease. This woman slept with another man, who had many affairs. My detective said that there is a possibility of 3 of the OW having 3 affairs. H will only see her as a sensual, witty, loving woman. H does not see the bad in her. He can clearly state what he sees bad in me without any problem. Go through his threads, very little does he praise me. But he can over and over say the OW is an honorable woman. She is so honorable that she wants to keep this affair with my H a secret. <p>If this OW is so honorable, and everything nice. What am I? I have had no sex beyond my H. I have had no affair at all. I live a christian life. I am a good mother to our kids. I am a caregiver. I find good in people. I love family. I love to be around people. I cater to H EN as well as other things. I look out for H, with appts. and etc. I don't keep secrets from my H. But I am just a woman he loves for being the mother of his children. Boy, that is the PITS! I wonder if I have an affair, well he think I am honorable, witty, smart, and trustworthy? She did and he feels so much for her, and not that much for me. These are my feelings, and so I am stating them. H will read them, and probably not like what I am saying. <p>I do love this guy. I bought lemons to make him his special lemon meringue pie this weekend. It was promised for him on his birthday in Sept. But this is the first opportunity to make it. Anyways, thanks for listening to me.

Thinker,
Why do you love this guy?<p>It is a very simple question. Can you answer it?

OK, thinker, this is your H's evil twin speaking, i say that as WE, my X and I, went through nearly the exact same situation both of you are facing, some differences, and after my analysis, i can clearly say, you two are following a similar path as we did, but not exactly, there will always be differences.<p>I can see you two very clearly, from both points of view. However, this will be a long post, and i need to formulate it correctly, but I suspect that you have the most power to resolve your marriage, and you have the most to gain from the relationship.<p>Will probably be later this weekend.<p>in the meantime, everyone be prepared, it won't be pretty, and contrary to what has been posted on this thread, the key to a longer lasting solution to this dilemma lies with the ESFJ.<p>WIFTTy

WIFT:<p>Why the emphasis on personality types? Isn't a bit simplistic to think that somehow understanding another's personality type can resolve very complex situations such as thinkers?

Kat,<p>not really because they come from two opposite poles of the spectrum in terms of thinking..
and reacting to things..and from reading both of SNL's and Wiffty's posts you will notice they come from the same side of that pole..and their wives from the opposite side..<p>If you read Anna's post about what have they learned you will see what I am refering too

Why do I love this guy? We saw each other at a physical ed class that played volleyball after all the hard work was done. I had been going for quite a few months, and then he showed up. He was interesting to look at, and I ran with the men, woman were too slow for me. I am short, 5' 1 1/2" and I was a strong volleyball player. He wanted to keep himself physically in shape and that appealed to me. (as for now, he needs lots of work). He loved outdoors, exercise, outdoors activities, swimming, biking, outdoor games.<p>We had a lot of interests, we would talk on the phone for hours, talk in the car, talk going on walks in the park. He loved to listen to certain music with me. He loved being around my family and doing family things. I enjoyed meeting his family as well. <p>His grandmother lived in town, and I personally took to her. I didn't have a grandmother that spoke english. I loved her, she was a christian and she told me a lot of PSALMS. I loved his step-grandfather. <p>H was interesting. He liked adventure, surprises, loved little kids, liked challenges, liked to go out to eat, went to a few concerts, went to movies. He liked animals. <p>My love is still there for my H. He is the father of our children. He is the one I looked up to for help. He helped me get through nursing school emotionally. I think he liked that I was frugal with money. We came into this marriage with my banking account. My H has the most beautiful deep brown eyes. He has this big bear body, smirkey smile that is mischevious yet soothing. He knows how to meet my EN's, I want to meet his. I think I can except for intellectual conversation. I don't mind some debate, but I can't defend myself with H. We fit in many ways, I see where he is lacking, and I fulfill that position. H sees where I am lacking and fills that position. I ask him for directions if needed. I ask him financial advice. I ask him to fix something if I can't fix it myself. We both love to read, I am beginning to use the computer more, and am thinking of taking computer classes at a local community college. Found out about the classes last week. I like to learn new things. H and I talked today about finding happy fun things to do. I am a doer, and finding it hard to find something fun to do when all this work is laying around. My paperwork is so behind, since my surgery 3 weeks ago. Got severely behind and can't seem to get motivated to plunge into the pile. Part of the problem is paying bills. Hate to send this money out in envelopes. Money issues are hard to deal with. So when it comes to big money issues, he has to take over. We bought stocks, it drives me crazy to hear H sigh, when we lost. I personally couldn't be a stock broker. I love his person, he makes me smile, he makes me sad. He has actually become better at showing concern for my father. H loves the kids even if he gets downright mad at them sometimes. We used to play games with the kids when they were little a lot at night. <p>I love to see and hear his vehicle drive in the driveway. I love to hear his voice on the phone. It makes me feel warm. Would love H to write me a poem. I would love to be in a christian study group together. When we met, I was in the Navigators group. He admired me for that, my H admired me for my artistic value. My medical background. H made me feel important. Seems when the kids came, I was not that important. That is what I feel. Since we have been doing the 15 hour a week thing, I am starting to feel a little important to him. I still feel H gets angry inside, (holds it) when I want to go to my parents to see how my dad is doing. But he is showing more concern. Today I talked to a customer that his father-in-law had cancer of the jaw. They replaced the jaw with hip bone, and had radiation and chemotherap. He is recovered and well so far. So I was interested in his conversation, and the customer was sorry to hear about my dad, and when we left he said he will keep him in his prayers. I am interesting to talk to, and H is interesting to talk to. <p>I feel I am rattling on. I feel the in-love with my H some, I feel the fitting, and I feel we still do fit to some degree. The personality point, we are not identical, but he knew we were different when we met. I feel he sees me as not good enough and throw me out and go for the new. <p>As far as vows, I married for love, committment, life till death does us apart. I can honestly say, that is not a positive thing I see in H. He as you can read, does not believe in vows, marriage, committment, or till death does us apart. I wonder if the OW feels the same way my H does. When you tire of the present spouse, go look for greener grass. After all she has done it twice.<p>What is ESF? Am learning the abbreviations, but don't know this one. <p>Been a long day, going to take a hot shower and chill out for the night.

Thinker, <p>I would like to apologize if I offended you in anyway about the conversational needs--it wasn't meant to offend..<p>And I do understand the frustrations of someone arguing a topic when there is nothing to argue..when you can just agree to disagree.<p>Your blest that you had help w/ emotional support during nursing school..I know I couldn't pronounce most of those medical terms..LOL...I know this as fact..I used to help my sister study and I couldn't pronounce them, she used to laugh at me..but, it wasn't a topic that interested me so I didn't put much thought into it..but she actually did better on the tests- because she would associate the words on the test to how I pronounced them..

Thorned Rose - I know I am not stupid, but when one puts words in the wrong way when one feels crappy, things don't come out right. <p>I value your statements, and feel H is only here for a little while. He is trying to work on the marriage in his own way, but it is not the way of MB. Therefore I see only divorce or separation ahead. That is why Jennifer is having H talk with Steve. She doesn't know what else to do. Things are pretty dismal here.

Thinker, <p>I do understand when someone tries to put words in your mouth and make it sound like your saying something your not..and trying to make you think you are doing something wrong when your not..
making you think that your motives for doing something are wrong..getting you to second guess yourself..when you shouldn't..<p>My dad was a master manipulater this way..as is stbx..<p>But, I am learning..yes, some of these were my own insecurities..from childhood..that stbxh played on..and my dad used to get his way..and they are also their own insecurities they are projecting on to you..<p>ie..You said in one of your posts that SNL doesn't like talking to the customers..he prefers you to do this..why do you think he doesn't like to do it?? It may be because he is insecure with how to carry on a basic conversation..I notice he loves to debate issues, and discuss things on a
certain level..and in a business setting..such as dealing with a customer..it's not the same type of conversational skills required..there is no debate required to explain what is wrong w/ an electric heater,an a/c or heatpump..this is what we found, this is what needs to be done to fix it..no debate..most customers don't understand the in's and out's of a heatpump and don't care..they want to know..is it working?? and if not..what needs to be done to get it working again..if it needs to be replaced..okay..what brand and size would you recommend?? Trane, Carrier, or something else..<p>I'm sure you use some type of work order..maybe he can write out on the work order what he wants said to the customer..so that when you make your calls you can tell them..(they will probably be like huh?) then you can explain it in simplier terms what it means..

Oh well, thinker,
Personally, I believe your marriage is far from over... Just my humble opinion from the outside looking in. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]