Hi thinker and s_n_l,
I have followed your posts ever since the day that SNL took over your previous screen name! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You both are still sounding the same as when I first came to MB... Thinker is still saying the same things over and over and SNL keeps saying the same things over and over and over and it seems like neither one of you are hearing each other.<p>None of us out here are going to be able to convince you both of anything is the way I see it. Both of you are going to have to look within to find your solutions and answers.<p>No matter how many times people answer your question(s) about why stay married if you don't fit, what is love, why does it have to be work, etc., you refuse to hear the answers, just keep asking the same questions over and over again.<p>I don't get why keep asking the same people the same questions over and again only to get basically the same answers over and again.<p>Is it so you can find one who agrees with you out of 10? (no answer required, just food for thought) And, if 9 out of 10 do not agree with you, do you dismiss their answers rather than let some of the words sink in? Everybody can't be wrong?!? I mean, if your opinion is outnumbered, don't you have to stop at some point and ask yourself if your way of thinking could be misguided?<p>Sure, we are not robots but we can reprogram our ways of thinking. It's never too late.<p>Are you both so set in your ways that you have turned a deaf ear to each other?<p>At what point do you forgive and move on and quit rehashing the past? Okay, so you're angry with the OW, what BS is not? What now? Do you carry the anger and bitterness to your grave or do you find a way to move past it? After all, that is the Christian thing to do, right?<p>I'm not trying to minimalize anyone's problems whatsoever, but it just sort of frustrating to me how neither one of you is backing off of your position. When no one wants to bend, nothing will ever get resolved.<p>Calling your spouse a derrogatory name is verbal abuse. That is what was meant by abusive. It's so funny how nothing is getting through all the strife between you two. This strife is what is killing your marriage, not the infidelity! The strife--the undercurrent of anger--on both your parts is what has poisoned your marriage to the point where it has soured. <p>I hope you guys figure it out before you throw away all the years you have spent together. Considering it has been the major portion of your lives, isn't the investment of time worth something?<p>p.s.While it is not in the bible, I do believe that we have a responsibility and a part to play in order for God to help us. WE have to pray, WE have to believe, WE have to receive the blessings that are already provided, WE have to give thanks, WE have to focus our minds on God's promises, WE have to develop the fruit of the Spirit, WE have to trust, WE have to obey... God's promises are unconditional, but His blessings are conditional.

snl....Do you mean just "do it", no matter how I feel, just do what others say I should? How does one do that anna, how do you do it? Don't you do what you want? <p>I feel compelled to answer this one. You can't just do it when there is no desire to make it work or when you don't believe in it, at least not for long. I tried that, lived day in day out for over 6 months pretending that things were ok, that we were trying to recover. Everyone here said to keep on doing it, the desire and feeling (to want to be married to W) will return. As uncomfortable as it was, I worked on our ENs, I even tried to convince myself it is not that bad after all, put on the happy face, it seemed like it was the right thing to do at the time but you are right deep down I didn't want to be there. I felt trapped, I was miserable and she was miserable - that's no way to live a life. <p>But I just don't understand SNL, what are you trying to evaluate? If you consider yourself emotionally divorce for sometime already and do not factor kids in this, what is keeping you or will keep you in this marriage? Are you trying to see if you can passionately love your wife again? Or if a sacrificial marriage can be enough for you? Do you think you might be happier not married and being single? Do you look forward for a life other than the one you are living now? <p>Which ever way you decide to go, life will still be a struggle for a while. I am speaking from the other side of the fence. While the issues may be different, it is still just as hard a struggle.<p>Sorry thinker for invading your thread.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cjack:
[QB]Oh, what a host of issues we have here!<p>
Cjack: "In my time and in my way" is just another way of saying "I'll be honest with you when I'm damned good and ready!" Or better yet: "Gosh, I'm taking the bar exam next week, so you should forgive me for lying to you for awhile!"<p>Horse-hockey!<p>Don't even pretend to practice radical honesty if you are not prepared to offer no excuses.<p>TR- cjack, Did you understand "radical honesty"
before you found the MB board? and if So did you
practice it w/ your own spouse? IMHO, He's is being honest with her, and even with himself, probably for the first time in his life..<p>
Cjack: That's like saying "Until I murdered those people, I was an upstanding citizen...give me a break!"<p>TR- Why do you have a problem with the fact he said he was a 'faithful, and loyal' husband up till the affair?? not telling her how he really
felt inside has nothing to do w/ being faithful
and loyal..<p>
cjack-Sorry, but we need to judge you by your actions...ALL your actions! To suggest that we only judge you by your good times is a little odd, don't you think?<p>TR- who are we to 'judge' him anyway?? I don't think that is what this board is about, judging others..it's about trying to understand, and make sense out of everything..and help each other grow
and understand, and hopefully have stronger marriage as the end result..<p>Cjack: Had you ever thought of being honest for honesty's sake? I would also argue that your attitude towards your W totally disregards her feelings. Is this revenge? If so, is revenge rational?<p>TR- Have you always been 'totally honest' with
your spouse? I understand where he is coming from
here, when you are honest with someone about your
feelings only to get told that you don't..and they
ignore those feelings..even though you have been
honest about them..<p>Cjack: I am NOT suggesting that your feelings don't count. What I AM suggesting is that YOUR feelings don't trump THEIR feelings. You ARE putting them through hell, but you justify it by saying that it makes you feel good. What kind of logic is that? Are you blind to what they feel? Is there not some middle ground? You say "damn their feelings, my feelings are more important!"<p>TR- I don't know cjack, it looks to me like he
is taking both of their feelings into account, which is why he hasn't just left the marriage..
had he been really self-serving..he would have
just left with out trying to figure out what was
wrong to begin with..but, he hasn't done that..
he's staying..and being honest with both her and himself, and trying to figure out what's next..
can we make this marriage work based on how we both feel? Or do we say, okay, I can't live in a marriage with the fact that you/I feel this way, and respect the others feelings in the process, no matter how much it hurts..and end the marriage..<p>I am sure they are both hurting right now..and I am sure he knows how much the truth is hurting her, not that he wants to intentially hurt her,
but, he may have (and from what he's said) he has
tried to be honest with her about these things
before, only to have what was being said ignored..
So he quit being honest..and let her believe what
she wanted..<p>but, now, they have come to a cross roads because of his affair..now, as he has said, it's time to pay the piper..not just him..but her too..her for not accepting his feelings as he (says) he tried to explain them..and him for his actions of the affair..and it is very painful for both to face these things..honestly..<p>And SNL, I personally respect you for your doing the soul searching that you are doing..and that
you aren't just running away from your marriage,
and the problems you two have had, and are having,
and how you are trying to figure out if/how you can make things better..<p>I personally think that is something that many of the bs's here are having the biggest trouble with..their spouses ran away..without doing all the soul searching and 'radical' honesty that you are doing..and facing the pain head on that Thinker and you are both feeling..instead of just running from it..and I respect Thinker, for staying and trying to accept/face and deal with those feelings, when it would be so much easier and less painful to just run away..and continue to ignore them..<p>I believe, it's through the process that you are
going through right now..that will either make or break your marriage..what can I live with, what can't I live with, what can you live with, what
can't you live with..okay..are these things we can change within ourselves to make this work?? Is this something I can do, or can't do? <p>Maybe it's because I've been in your shoes, doing the soul searching..and radical honesty..and staying to face it, only to have my stbxh run
away and not even to work through it, that I can respect what you are doing..<p>Okay, I made a mistake, we both have..lets deal/face with the problems honestly that
led to the mistakes..and see what happens..

I hesitate to even post here because ya'll are actually highjacking Thinker's thread and now I am an accomplice to this, but some of this is getting out of hand (IMO).
I have to agree with Thorned Rose. SNL is being villified simply because some of you don't agree with him. I don't think he is a saint either, but who is? He is being more radically honest than most of us care to stomach and that is why you are outraged. <p>Cjack: That's like saying "Until I murdered those people, I was an upstanding citizen...give me a break!"<p>Wiffle: This happens all the time. Not murder, but certainly other transgressions. And yes, up until (whatever event) I was a (whatever kind of person). In my case, I could write the sentence as follows: "Up until my complete breakdown last year that caused me to lose my job and enter therapy and possibly cost me my marriage, I was a highly successful, happy and productive person."
SNL doesn't still claim to be faithful. He simply said he WAS faithful.<p>Cjack: I am NOT suggesting that your feelings don't count. What I AM suggesting is that YOUR feelings don't trump THEIR feelings. You ARE putting them through hell, but you justify it by saying that it makes you feel good. What kind of logic is that? Are you blind to what they feel? Is there not some middle ground? You say "damn their feelings, my feelings are more important!"<p>Wiffle: I don't recall SNL ever saying he felt good. Actually, just the opposite. I think he probably feels like **** most of the time. And if his feelings don't trump Thinkers, why should hers trump his? The problem with this situation is there usually is no middle ground because the abandoned spouse won't allow there to be. That person is so hell bent and determined to hang on that they lose focus of what it is they are trying to hang on to. <p>If Thinker could step back and really look at her relationship I bet she would agree there isn't much there. She may well be happier and healthier without SNL. But, she is clouded by "what could have been" and wishful thinking that isn't real.<p>The other BSs on this forum don't want to see this and that is why it becomes increasingly difficult to have meaningful exchanges.<p>And before you ask, I am not the WS. There are no affairs in my troubled marriage.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> SNL is being villified simply because some of you don't agree with him. <hr></blockquote><p>its not that i don't agree with him, its that he is refusing to make a decision, one way or the other, and has abdicated the responsibility for that decision to his W.<p>He is using differing viewpoints to maintain his current situation, which is in limbo, and his inability is causing other people alot of pain, and frustration.<p>If SNL were to state his goal, have an action plan, and a progress review at different times, i can support him. However, to be unable to decide this basic life plan, he is just wandering through life, and other people HAD some expectations of him not be wandering.<p>So i am challenging him to stop wandering and work towards a plan. There is a saying, "Not to decide is to decide" and that decision describes confusion. OK, i can buy that as long as one is working on a plan to reduce the FOG (confusion) but SNL is playing mental masterbation games by going to counseling, and then not doing the assignments.<p>That wreaks of ODD, oppositional defiant disorder, meaning the inability to cooperate just to get attention. it is a childish behavioral stage or phase, usually an adult grows out of it.<p>Evidently, SNL is regressing to not being able to cooperate with anyone, nor able to make a decision, and therefore, after a certain point, I vote to use the BIG GUN!<p>WIFTTy

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong><p>its not that i don't agree with him, its that he is refusing to make a decision, one way or the other, and has abdicated the responsibility for that decision to his W.<p>He is using differing viewpoints to maintain his current situation, which is in limbo, and his inability is causing other people alot of pain, and frustration.<p>If SNL were to state his goal, have an action plan, and a progress review at different times, i can support him. However, to be unable to decide this basic life plan, he is just wandering through life, and other people HAD some expectations of him not be wandering.<p>So i am challenging him to stop wandering and work towards a plan. There is a saying, "Not to decide is to decide" and that decision describes confusion. OK, i can buy that as long as one is working on a plan to reduce the FOG (confusion) but SNL is playing mental masterbation games by going to counseling, and then not doing the assignments.<p>That wreaks of ODD, oppositional defiant disorder, meaning the inability to cooperate just to get attention. it is a childish behavioral stage or phase, usually an adult grows out of it.<p>Evidently, SNL is regressing to not being able to cooperate with anyone, nor able to make a decision, and therefore, after a certain point, I vote to use the BIG GUN!<p>WIFTTy</strong><hr></blockquote><p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong><p>Evidently, SNL is regressing to not being able to cooperate with anyone, nor able to make a decision, and therefore, after a certain point, I vote to use the BIG GUN!<p>WIFTTy</strong><hr></blockquote><p>LOL!!! OK you got my vote, let's use the the BIG GUN! That is hillarious. <p>Wifty, I agree with you here 100% on everything you said, he needs to either "Crap or get off the pot." <p>I do think he is very sad and frustrated inside. He knows if he leaves her his personality will be that of regret and pain. He for his own views he will be distraught over his decision the rest of his life. I think this is why he is lingering. However, the other side, I think if he admits there was hope all along in his marriage, if his marriage becomes successful, then there are too many things he would have to face up too. As TR says, inside he is having a huge battle. <p>Thinker,<p>We are all worried about kidnapping your post. However, when it comes to direct questions and answers to your husband, I would think you really don't mind, as this still pertains to your marriage. However, if I am wrong, please let us know and we will start our own thread with SNL. I would like to know your thoughts on this. (ok, that is funny! I am saying "I want to know Thinkers thoughts." Ok, so you know my secret now...corny sense of humor.)<p>ANNA

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<p>its not that i don't agree with him, its that he is refusing to make a decision, one way or the other, and has abdicated the responsibility for that decision to his W.<p>He is using differing viewpoints to maintain his current situation, which is in limbo, and his inability is causing other people alot of pain, and frustration.<p>If SNL were to state his goal, have an action plan, and a progress review at different times, i can support him. However, to be unable to decide this basic life plan, he is just wandering through life, and other people HAD some expectations of him not be wandering.<p>So i am challenging him to stop wandering and work towards a plan. There is a saying, "Not to decide is to decide" and that decision describes confusion. OK, i can buy that as long as one is working on a plan to reduce the FOG (confusion) but SNL is playing mental masterbation games by going to counseling, and then not doing the assignments.<p>That wreaks of ODD, oppositional defiant disorder, meaning the inability to cooperate just to get attention. it is a childish behavioral stage or phase, usually an adult grows out of it.<p>Evidently, SNL is regressing to not being able to cooperate with anyone, nor able to make a decision, and therefore, after a certain point, I vote to use the BIG GUN!<p>WIFTTy<p>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<p>Evidently, SNL is regressing to not being able to cooperate with anyone, nor able to make a decision, and therefore, after a certain point, I vote to use the BIG GUN!<p>WIFTTy<p>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>LOL!!! OK you got my vote, let's use the the BIG GUN! That is hillarious. <p>Wifty, I agree with you here 100% on everything you said, he needs to either "Crap or get off the pot." <p>I do think he is very sad and frustrated inside. He knows if he leaves her his personality will be that of regret and pain. He for his own views he will be distraught over his decision the rest of his life. I think this is why he is lingering. However, the other side, I think if he admits there was hope all along in his marriage, if his marriage becomes successful, then there are too many things he would have to face up too. As TR says, inside he is having a huge battle. <p>Thinker,<p>We are all worried about kidnapping your post. However, when it comes to direct questions and answers to your husband, I would think you really don't mind, as this still pertains to your marriage. However, if I am wrong, please let us know and we will start our own thread with SNL. I would like to know your thoughts on this. (ok, that is funny! I am saying "I want to know Thinkers thoughts." Ok, so you know my secret now...corny sense of humor.)<p>ANNA<p>[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

TR- Have you always been 'totally honest' with
your spouse? I understand where he is coming from
here, when you are honest with someone about your
feelings only to get told that you don't..and they
ignore those feelings..even though you have been
honest about them..<p>Cjack: Actually, I was honest with my XW about my feelings. I think that is why I responded so angrily to SNL's post. His attitude of "I have no obligation to tell anyone anything if I so choose not too..." really rubs me the wrong way. <p>Wiffle: SNL is being villified simply because some of you don't agree with him. I don't think he is a saint either, but who is? He is being more radically honest than most of us care to stomach and that is why you are outraged. <p>I admit to being outraged, but not because of his radical honesty. Yes, I strongly disagree with his continued justification and rationalization of his own actions. In other posts, SNL has repeatedly stated that affairs are normal, healthy behavior. In this thread, he has stated that he feels almost no guilt or remorse over what he has done, and said that he didn't put his wife and children "through" anything at all. I think that's what angered me more than anything. <p>I admit that I was angry last night when I posted, and I apologize to all (SNL included) if I came off as judgemental.

I just don't get it why is it okay for SNL to be judgemental but no one else can? If you read any of his posts he has from day one passed judgement on not only his wife, the institution of marriage, the Harleys, marriagbuilders, others posting here, the spouses of those who post here etc etc. He has stated that affairs are a good thing yet he called the H of one poster here a pimp because he manages a strip club! He denounces immoral those who use porn yet sees nothing wrong with his affair! This is waaay beyond just the normal WS fog. <p>You only need to read one his posts to realize that he is not interested in saving his marriage he is only going thru the motions so he can say he tried. But since he is a good Christian and all around great guy he can't be the one to file for divorce.
So what to do what to do? In typical passive/aggressive style he does nothing therefore forcing his w to file so that she can end this horrific limbo. And so he gets to tell everyone how he tried, how she was the one who filed..blah, blah blah. Poor SNL how he must have suffered at the hands of that she-devil!
It will make a great sob story for the next woman in his life.<p>Frankly I don't how thinker has put up with him for 20+ years. If his posts are how he relates IRL she deserves a nomination for sainthood.

cjack,<p>I think it's cool you apologizde and decided there were better ways you could have presented your view, however, I want you to also consider these thoughts.<p>Here's what I think regarding the word judgemental. <p>First, Here's some definitions of judgement. Judgement: 1. the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing. 2. a proposition stating something believed or asserted 3. b : an opinion so pronounced. <p>Now there are other defintions of judgement which do not apply, such as 1. the final judging of mankind by God 2. judgements past down through court. <p>Ok, looking at those definitions applicable, judgement means opinion as Webster's dictionary states, then here's my question. How in the world are we suppose to help people on MB and give any opinions, if people say don't judge and basically judgement is just that, opinions?<p>MB Forum is just that, every person expressing there opinion/judgement. Sure we have an obligation to try hard to keep out verbal abuse and try very hard to use discretion not to hurt persons with our opinons, but we still have an obligation to also be honest with them. MB is also a great way to learn to communicate better and learn more tact to get our points across. However, to an extent there are cases where persons the indirect approach doesn't work so we need to use more direct approaches. I am not saying direct in a hurtful way, but direct in a "this is how it is, get the picture way" Being tactful just doesn't work sometimes. I also think there are times when people really think they can "pull the wool" over others eyes. I refuse to cater to these people.<p>I wouldn't be a bit surprised if somewhere ages ago some Wayward Spouses while in there fog, got together and decided expressing what is right and wrong, and giving opinions on right and wrong is just unacceptable and in doing so is somehow condemning them. <p>Here's a couple of ways I think judgemental attitudes are not acceptable. 1. If I or someone gave another person unsolicited adviced and told this person how wrong they are living their lives. 2.If I or anyone were to judge someone by saying, you are going to go to hell for your actions. This would be doing God's job as only he can condemn a person to heaven or hell. <p>Now, the difference to telling a neighbor which never solicited an opinion from me and being on MB and expressing an opinion is fairly obvious. This is an open discussion forum. It is governed by the MB concepts and rules. We have a right to express opinions/judgement along these rules and guidelines set.<p>Anyway, just some thoughts I felt you may find interesting.<p>Thanks for listening.<p>ANNA

SNL,<p>I started the post to you on your questions, but didn't finish them. Sorry!<p>I have a couple more questions too.<p>If your wife was the one who had the affair and handled it exactly as you did. How would you feel right now? Would she be justified in her actions? Would her actions just be a fact of how life is?<p>If she had an affair now and didn't tell you. What would you do? How would you react? Would she be justified in having an affair? <p>Thanks for answering all my questions.<p>ANNA

s_n_l, thinker? Are you guys out there? Hmmm... must be taking a break from MB today. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Oh well, it's probably for the best!

I have read all the info you people have given. Interesting, and I have to agree with some of what all you are saying. Yesterday, I worked all day, election here. Today, trying to get things done, paperwork, nap, calls with H, dinner and talked to my mom. Things not going good with my dad, radiation side effect is short term memory. He fell yesterday, and mom had to show him how to roll over and get on all 4's. He mumbles quite a bit, and doesn't understand some things you are saying. He is also having a hard time having words come out, he gets frustrated trying to talk and mom is trying to complete his statements. This is so hard to take.<p>Yesterday, at the election, I worked with 3 other woman, one talked about a relative having an affair. I couldn't say much, just said it is sad and I feel sorry for the wife. Said It must be hard to be the betrayed spouse. Not a good time talking about something they don't know I am trying to deal with on a daily basis. Then H called me on cellphone to see how I am doing. H talked to Steve yesterday, and more of the same. Started on why just do it. H wants the passionate, in-love thingy. Got depressed, and basically was not in a good mood the rest of the night. Came home, in a bad mood, we were in confrontation about the affair. I LB big time, but you know what, I didn't care at the time. Started physical therapy Monday, and have on Wed. and Fri. Came home today, tried to get things done and called parents around noon. Talked to mom and found about dads episode of falling. She is taking dad to Radiation today, and asking for them to check him out from the fall. This is so hard for her, I need to help her more. <p>Yes, I feel Sad-N-Lonely, is restating the same statements over and over. I don't feel he is looking into regaining this marriage. He basically wants to find out why he had an affair, and why she dumped him. He tells me he was divorced from me emotionally, and I feel he wants to stay that way. He tells me that he wants me to get a job of some sort, what if he were to die. I feel he is getting things ready for divorce, this is my feelings. <p>Yes, I still have questions about God. How many times does one ask for forgiveness on adultery? I stated this to my H and he said for ever. But how does one live with themselves and the adultery? Especially in my case, my H does not feel remorse or guilt for the adultery. So I feel he does not want the marriage, he is doing some of the things here until he finds out why he did what he did. Seems with him being on the boards since February some sort of plan is in place. But to me it seems there is no plan, just doing something day by day with no real direction. That is the problem with the MB counseling. He doesn't want to just do it, he wants the motivation to do it. I feel no hope, just living under the same roof, and that is it. I will have to file when the time comes. He states he will not file. So I guess the end will come, and it will be what he wanted in the first place.<p>H and I talked about his physical affair with the OW. He should of told me about the sex with the OW, so that I could of made my own decision to have sex with H or not. This is hurting in side so much. H was in control of the situation, and lied to me and I feel used (possible rape). <p>Everyone can think whatever they want with each of us. This is a free forum. I am not a controller any more than H, I feel. I am more of a caregiver. Told H if situation was like what my mom is dealing with, I would be there for him 24 hours. Can't say H would be there physically for me, he would provide money to provide care, but I said what about the TLC, support of H, and care of H? Yes, I would be happier with someone who shows TLC and caring more readily. I love to hug, I love to touch, I love to kiss. I need a human body to hold me, to know he will be by my side 24 hours a day if need be. So I don't see any real marriage here. He wants different needs, and I can't give them all to him. I can provide some, but not all. Dealing with a lot of problems here, and not in the best of mood. Life sucks!!!!!!!!!

Thinker,<p>I am so sorry to hear about your dad. I know this is very difficult on your entire family. It was on us when my mom had cancer. It was difficult to see her go from the independant woman to where she couldn't care for herself. <p>I have a question for you concerning this though, have you sat down and talked to your dad, told him it's okay for him to stop fighting and that you will be okay? Has your mom and other family members done the same? Take the time now to tell him everything you've ever wanted to tell him. <p>I know that once me, my brothers, sister and our kids told our mom we would be okay..and we undertood that she didn't want to quit fighting because she wanted to be here to watch her grandkids grow..but,it was okay to let go..
it's like she needed to know we would be okay without her..yes we loved her very much, but we loved her enough to want her to free of the pain she was in.<p>she wanted that we wouldn't hate her or think she just gave up..and resent her for not being here anymore..we all sat down with her and told her we loved her..and that we'd miss her. And that Jesus is waiting on the other side for her to finally come home and rest. She'd done all God wanted her to do in this life..it was time to go home..<p>My mom went home within three days of all of us talking to her..she died a peaceful death..at my sisters home..with my sister and I there with her..It was awesome..I sat there reading the bible to her, my sister said "your wasting your time, she can't hear you" I just looked at her and said
"yes, she can,she hears every word I am saying her soul is more alive than you think." I started reading the Lords Prayer and my sister sat in shock as she heard our mom pray with me..my sister sat up and started praying too, she took her last breath shortly after we finished praying..<p>maybe talk to your family and ask them if they would be willing to do this, and basically give him permission to stop fighting..because you love him enough to let him go home..I know it's hard to let go, but it's better than seeing them suffer-

Hi thinker, s_n_l,
I just want you guys to know that I care about you and that's why I am intrigued by your story and keep following up on it. Consider yourselves hugged. If I didn't care, I could just easily skip to another thread. So I hope you don't ever feel attacked by me, okay?<p>I wanted to address your question of how many times do we ask for forgiveness from a Christian point of view, so I'm not trying to start any sort of religious debate. You have stated you have Christian beliefs so this is addressed to you and not as a topic for debate--so my intention is sister to sister, sister to brother in Christ. <p>I think we ask God one time, by faith, and then receive that forgiveness. If we have to keep asking God, then that means that either God is deaf and didn't hear us the first time or else He ignored us and/or God didn't forgive us at all--and those are totally out the window because they contradict the Word. Either that or we don't think God heard us and that would be doubting. Doubt is a major enemy of faith!<p>(Ask and ye shall receive--we do the asking and we do the receiving... God never ignores a prayer of faith, in fact, Jesus made a point of telling people how much their faith had to do with their receiving of their miracles. We call and He hears us each and every time!!! It's a promise!)<p>God hears us with a loving and compassionate ear just as we hear our own children crying out to us for help--only times that by His omniscience. Remember the shed Blood of Jesus bought and paid for our forgiveness, so wouldn't it be up to us to RECEIVE it? It's already paid for, our redemption, that is... Right? I think we have to do more receiving than asking for something that has already been provided for... So I would submit to you to receive His love and forgiveness for yourself, THEN and only then, can you give it to others (and anyone else who has hurt you).<p>By hating, we are just as guilty of sin as the adultery, right? Didn't Jesus equate hatred with the sin of murder? None of us is innocent. We all need God's forgiveness each and every day... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

My H uncle did the same with his dad. Grandpa that died just 5 weeks ago was doing okay. He ended up in the hopital quite suddenly. Prostrate cancer, Grandpa lasted only 7 days in the hospital. Grandpa and his son were religious. Son and sons wife told dad, it is time to go dad, you have a better place to go. We will be there with you in due time. Uncle stayed day and night with his dad, cause Dr.'s kept saying I don't think he will make it through the night. Grandpa had a severe stroke and was only hanging on by a thread. The last night, grandpa called for Ray (Uncle) he wasn't able to talk for 3 days, and Ray went to his bedside and recited a PSALM and told his dad it is okay to go dad, he loved him, and his dad went holding his sons hand.<p>My problem, is my parents are not religious. I feel they know about God, they may have God in their heart. My twin brother has stated that he does not believe in God. I have talked to my parents once in a great while about my beliefs. I don't have the comfort knowing that my dad will go to heaven. That is my biggest concern. I have asked dad once or twice to accept the Lord into his heart, to no avail. To have my brother help, is, I feel not positive. His wife is religious, but then my brothers wife has not seen our parents since x-mas last year. They only live about 4 miles away. There is this wall she has built between her and the family. <p>I have a friend that said she would be willing to talk to my dad, and she even said a older male from her church is willing to talk to dad. I might go that route. My friend and I are going to go to my parents to help clean the house next week. The subject will come up at that time. <p>So for forgiveness from God, you ask and receive, I understand that. Then the OW has had another affair with my H and possibly a 3rd. Does she ask for forgiveness and receive as easily as the first one? Or did she ask and said OK I asked, I'm healed and move along and when the grass turned greener somewhere else, why did she wander? Why didn't God heal her to lead a christian life? Also, does God give forgiveness when the OW is not going to tell her H about the affair with my H? Does God forgive anyway, and help her to tell her H? Or does God forgive and and she just lead a life of a lie? How can one live knowing they committed adultery and keeping it from the person they love? I know when I say I hate the OW (who doesn't hate the OP) it is wrong. This totally confuses me. My H says, what does he know right? That the other woman is a christian. So why is she straying so much? Could the christianity be a show ticket to show others yes I am doing the right thing, but deep down in her heart she doesn't even know about God? To put a good picture on for herself, painting the good picture. I still feel this woman is psychologically unstable. <p>Anyways, as you can see I am troubled still, I want to forgive my H, having a hard time. When the subject of the OW comes up, it hurts big time. Thanks for your help.<p>[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: thinker ]<p>[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

Hi thinker,
You know, I think if you stop letting OW take up so much space in your head, she can't continue to hurt you so much. As for her why's and how's of her infidelity, I think you should just leave that between her and her God and quit trying to figure her out. Maybe that would give you more room in your thoughts to reconcile with snl. I hear you about the verbal abuse and all this talk of divorce and everything, so you have some decisions to make for yourself regarding what is acceptable to you and what is no longer acceptable. In any case, my prayers are with you guys. <3<3<3

Originally posted by thinker:<p>Maybe talk to your uncle? Ask him to talk to your parents? As well, as yes, have those from church talk to them also..<p>Thinker -So for forgiveness from God, you ask and receive, I understand that. Then the OW has had another affair with my H and possibly a 3rd. Does she ask for forgiveness and receive as easily as the first one? Or did she ask and said OK I asked, I'm healed and move along and when the grass turned greener somewhere else, why did she wander?<p>TR-She wandered the same reason we all do were sinners..and she may have asked..but, it's also
a matter of searching out and understanding her own needs..and whats missing inside of herself..
figuring out what needs her spouse can meet, what needs she can meet herself, and realizing the needs that ONLY God can meet, and allow God to meet them..she may not have done this..And yes, God forgives as easily the 3rd time as he does the 1st.<p>Thinker-Why didn't God heal her to lead a christian life? <p>TR-This isn't something that is an overnight process, I'm sure God is working on her heart
just as He is working on yours..and SNL's and
my own..<p>
Thinker-Also, does God give forgiveness when the OW is not going to tell her H about the affair with my H? <p>TR-God prompts the heart to confession..if she refuses to confess whats she's done..thats between her and God..<p>Thinker-Does God forgive anyway, and help her to tell her H? <p>TR-As stated above..He will prompt her heart to confess..and He gives strength to confess we just have to draw upon that strength and swollow our own pride to confess..<p>Thinker-Or does God forgive and and she just lead a life of a lie? <p>TR-It's her life..not yours..she will have to live with any internal struggles of guilt if she doesn't follow the prompting of God..Not you..<p>Thinker-How can one live knowing they committed adultery and keeping it from the person they love?<p>TR- The live with guilt, and shame..even if they don't acknowledge those feelings as such..<p>Thinker- I know when I say I hate the OW (who doesn't hate the OP) it is wrong. This totally confuses me. <p>TR- Think about this..is it you hate her or you hate what she's done? there is a big difference here..as you know I was abused..I don't hate my dad..but, I hate what he did to me..just as God
hates the sin..he loves the sinner..<p>Thinker- My H says, what does he know right? That the other woman is a christian. So why is she straying so much?<p>TR-She may have only a child's understanding of God. And as I stated before..she is a sinner, just
as we all are..and we ALL stray from God at some point in our life, thats how we grow..none of us are perfect..<p>Thinker- Could the christianity be a show ticket to show others yes I am doing the right thing, but deep down in her heart she doesn't even know about God? To put a good picture on for herself, painting the good picture. I still feel this woman is psychologically unstable. <p>TR- That is also a possibility, many within the churches have only a 'head' knowledge of God, but not a 'heart' knowledge..and understanding..<p>Thinker-Anyways, as you can see I am troubled still, I want to forgive my H, having a hard time. When the subject of the OW comes up, it hurts big time. Thanks for your help.<p>TR- Then forgive him..just say SNL, I forgive you..but,lets look at what forgiveness doesn't mean: that the pain will go away, that everything is okay..that you must trust him again right away..that you agree what he did was right..it does not mean he has the right to continue to hurt you..does not depend on the the one who committed the offense.<p>Your refusing to forgive does nothing to SNL, or the OW-it only perpetuates the hurt you feel..<p>We forgive because it honors Christ, and because it sets us free from the on going damage bitterness causes to us and those we love..
It means you are no longer in bondage to the person who hurt you, it means you will no longer live "your" life focused on what this person did..<p>God doesn't excuse sin..but, He does forgive it..<p>Forgiveness is for the one who was hurt, so that they can move on..it doesn't mean the other person shouldn't still face the consequences of their actions..<p>exp. I forgive my dad for sexually abusing me,but it doesn't mean that what he did was right..and it doesn't mean I have to go over and spend time w/ him..so the consequences he suffers is..he doesn't get to see me, or his grandchildren as often as he would like.<p>So, you can choose to forgive in your own time..it doesn't have to be right now..but, God does say
in Mark 11:26:<p>But if ye do not forgive, neither will your father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. <p>read through Mark chapter 11, and ask your pastor what he feels it means if you don't fully understand..<p>I also wanted to add here, that this is where understanding what Boundries are, and how to set them comes in..You forgive, but, you also set the boundary that this is unexceptable to me..and as you begin to build the trust again..the boundries can change..<p>Hope this helps answer some of your questions..<p>[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</p>

One of the messages with talking with the Harleys, is trusting can come back when the WS is totally committed to the marriage. No, holding back, no considering POJA subjects, totally protecting the BS, totally concentrating on the marriage and BS. We don't have this yet, so I do not trust my H. I feel he will wander when the grass shows greener somewhere else. H looks a woman up and down pretty good. If I was the WS I would turn my head the other way, and say God help me.<p>The reason I have OW in my conversations, is she has controlled almost everynight one dream. I am telling her we will tell her H, I usually do something like pull her hair, (H said she was balding), I kick her in the butt, because of the position she is in, or I take both their clothes and run out of the door, or something like that. I feel it is part of the suicide attempt she placed on me in the 3 conversations I had with her. (She called and talked to only me). And when I asked her a question it was 'I don't know', she controlled the conversation totally, and this makes me so mad now. I am the BS and let this awful woman control the conversation. I hate the fact that my H is her dirty little secret, but if that is what she wants, she has to live with it. <p>I also, don't know how my H fell for her, and it hurts. She once was 200#, she is patchy bald, she is sexually more alive than me, and she is still overweight. But he liked her conversation. But it still hurts. I am trying to get her out, but like you said the hurt will not disappear. Until things are resolved here. And the hurt will be with me for a long time. Maybe just not as severe as now.

Thinker,<p>First, I want to say I'm sorry you are going through so much. <p>On your question regarding forgiveness. The reason I feel SNL continues to need forgiveness for the rest of his life is because he hasn't accepted responsibility yet. It only takes one time to say "Lord forgive me I have sinned, I will try hard to never let this sin into my life again." Then God will forgive him. He needs to ask you for forgiveness too, but as long as he thinks he did nothing wrong or sinful then he needs to ask himself this question, "Why do I need to ask for forgiveness from anyone, if nothing really was wrong?" The answer is obvious of course, it was wrong, he does need forgiveness. However, when a person ask God or anyone else to forgive them but then say I really didn't do anything wrong though, then how does a person get forgiveness? Also, how are you, thinker, going to move on with your marriage and put 100% effort into your marriage when you have in the back of your mind thoughts of your husband may and probably will justify another affair sometime again in his lifetime? The answer again is obvious. You can't. <p>Until he admits his mistake, until he says it was wrong, I do have to answer to you as my wife when I cheat on you, then your marriage can not get the foundation it needs to build on. <p>I think you are right, if after Steve counsels him in two more sessions, I would go to an attorney and start divorce proceedings.<p>Do this for you. You deserve a person who will not have this attitude and who will treat you with respect and love you so deserve. <p>Thinker, I went to a psychologist who asked me once what I respected about my mother. This is what I told her. I said my mother put up with everything my dad did. She put up with cheating, drinking, and selfishness. She just stayed through it all." The psychologist then said to me, "So what you are basically saying, is your mother taught you to stay no matter how bad the situation got." Ok, light went off in my head when she said this. <p>Do you want your children to grow up thinking you stayed through it all and took whatever abuse your husband put up with, so they should too? Do you think it is healthy for your children to see day in and day out the way your husband is treating you and think this is how women should be treated?<p>Well, just some things for you to think about.<p>Also, another thing, I hope you are sharing all this with a couple of close friends of yours. You have a right to talk about your feelings to these persons. You also have a right to tell your family members about this.<p>Again, I'm sorry it has to be such a rough time for you. My grandmother died of Altzheimer's and it was so sad to see a person losing so much of who they were day in and day out. There were times even through the altzheimers my grandmother still made us laugh. <p>Ok, I have to tell you this story of my grandmother, even though it has nothing to do with anything on here. My grandmother loved tomatoes. She would call them "maters". She grew them for several years and then she used to buy them fresh all the times. This was her favorite thing to eat. I think she used to negotiate the price of these "maters" with the vendors who sold them to her. Anyway, during the final stages of the Altzheimer's disease, my cousin brought her this perfect, red large tomato. One of my relatives said, "Oh, she won't know what that is any more." But, he gave it to her anyway. He said "Grandma what do you think about this?" My grandmother looked at it and you could tell she liked it, but she said in this little weak voice, "Tiny, tiny, tiny." I am sure she had in her mind to bargain a price on this tomato. Well, just one of many favorite memories of my grandmother as she was in her final stages. I think there are memories we can have and cherish throughout a loved ones life, even the hardest of times. <p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>P.S.<p>Well, I never got your thoughts on me or others posting to SNL on this thread. Is it ok? I am going to answer SNL's questions on here so if it is not please let me know.<p>Double P.S.<p>Thinker, I just read your last post above mine. We must of been posting around the same time. Weird you said somethings I addressed.<p>[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>