I need some advice.....

H and I are separated, since 6/02 and are in counseling. Don't know how this is going to work out.

I am still stuck at admitting that my marriage was abusive....and figuring out what to do from here on. I know I am still bothered about incidents from the past. (mostly-the incidents where my children were who the "abuse" was directed at) I guess I am looking for validation of my feelings, as silly as that sounds. My H has had over the years rage problems. I feel like each and every one chipped away at me until I no longer cared about him. Ended up in withdrawl (along with isolation and depression, etc) At the time we separated, I felt relief and was sure it was over. Something made me want to give it one last shot. MC seems to be focusing on the present. I am still very disturbed by the past and until I know that he acknowledges that his behavior was wrong, I can't seem to move on.

Here are some examples of "incidents" we have had:
BTW-we have 2 children together, D15 and S11 and I have a daughter from a previous marriage who is 21.
*When oldest D was 15, he got upset about her being out too late, and tried to kick her out of our house. (this was her 1st major offense)H called her dad to come and get her, without my knowledge.
*After not getting his way on the above, he would have nothing to do with my daughter throughout her HS years.
*When son was 5, he spilled pop in H's truck. H did not speak to him for 3 days.
*When son was 2, H got angry and destroyed the kitchen (overturned tables and chairs, broke things, threw things, punched the microwave cracking it) Son was in the next room.
*When girls were 8 and 3, he got angry and kicked over all my plants sending dirt everywhere.
*When his daughter was about 11, the 3 of us were in the vehicle. He got angry with me, was yelling, calling me stupid, etc. D was crying and begging him to stop. He yelled at her saying he hates us all. She said "Me, too?" He said "yes" (after all, we were "teaming up against him")
*When his daughter had sex for the 1st time earlier this year (which was actually a bad experience for her) he stopped speaking to her. And continued the silent treatment for 5 months.
*Daughter becomes depressed and suicidal. When I try to talk to him about it, he talks about how it makes HIM feel.
*H and I and 2 kids were in the vehicle going to church when he got angry and slammed on the brakes at 60 mph. Turned around to go home. Kids were scared and crying in the back. Then, he did it again saying we WERE "effin" going to church.
*Has demonstrated INSANE jealousy over the years which led to many LOUD, ridulous fights, within the kids hearing.
*Always uses cursing when "disciplining" the kids. along with sarcasm. hurts their self esteem.
*H has always shared his "side of the story" with the children, ever since they were very young. Trying, evidently, to get them against me. Even in spite of me begging him to not involve them in details of our problems.
*H still (since separated) talks to the kids about "his side" Places all the blame on me for "destroying the family"

I have more examples, but you probably get the point. Anyway, I think this is emotional/mental abuse of the kids. Do you agree? He has at times been very cruel and hateful to me. Every attempt I made to discuss this with him resulted in him saying "eff it" get a divorce if you hate me so much. He was abused as a child and compared to that, this is mild. But to me, even mild is too much. He thinks all dads are like this. Silent treatment is a good punishment. He is just being "honest" with the kids when he tell them all about his problems with me. He doesn't acknowledge that he has done anything wrong.

Currently, in counseling, he has calmed down a lot. He is a lot more patient and loving with the kids. (to the extreme that he lets our youngest, our son, do whatever he wants. buys him anything he wants. allows him to use cursing. skip school, etc.) He and our daughter don't have much of a relationship. He and I haven't had a "fight" for quite a while. But then again, I do not confront him, if we are disagreeing, I back off. Habit.

How could I learn to trust him again? Or can I at all? These things with the kids seem very serious to me. I am not overreacting, am I? Sometimes I feel like I cannot forgive and forget these things with the kids. This isn't a normal, healthy way for a dad to act, is it? I feel the need to protect them. I am not against discipline, but his methods are cruel, IMO. This is not about control, either. I feel he is mean. My biggest reason for going to counseling is that he will see things differently. I know I cannot make him, but I can hope. If we can both change, we might be able to be a family again. I am willing to change myself and my patterns.

Has anyone had a spouse who acts like this? How can I love someone who is so mean to someone I love?

I think there are situations where divorce must be considered.

When the safety and emotional stability of children is at stake, this is one of them.

It is incredible what some men think is 'normal male behavior' but in their defense, that's all they know. My ex's father was physically abused, and my ex and his mother make excuses for him every time he's verbally abusive.

Personally I think people can change if they want to, independent of how they were raised. You can blame your 'environment' for how you are now, but not for how you will be for the rest of your life.

janemh -

Listen to your instincts. This is not normal - or at least not the normal that you want to be your reality.

You should probably have the kids in counseling with H so that they can work out some of these issues and possibly H needs individual counseling with a child counselor - he can talk to the kid's counselor, to learn about how his past behavior has affected the children and how to change his future behavior.

Perhaps you can find some parenting books or classes that you both can read or attend together and then talk about how you want your parenting style to be.

Emotional abuse is just as harmful as physical abuse. Make sure that the lines of communication are open with you and your children at least - let them know that they can talk to you about their feelings. Validate their emotions, let them know that those behaviors are not right, and help them find a way to cope.

Sounds like H needs individual counseling to resolve his own issues of his past before he can really move on.

You need to let H know that those types of bahaviors are disrespectful and childish and that you will not respond when he acts that way. Of course you need to find a nice way to do this and that is why a counselor can help.

Sounds like H also may need some anger management classes or maybe you can find a book on the subject and give him some tips - or maybe you can find some tips to help you in those books.

There is help out there. You just need to seek it out. K

XPButtercup-thanks for your response. I appreciate it.

"Personally I think people can change if they want to, independent of how they were raised."

I agree. Problem is, I don't know if H really wants to. He doesn't "acknowledge" Compared to how "loud" it was when he grew up, this is nothing, according to him. I can only hope and pray.

Godisincontrol-I love your handle. This is one thing I am striving for...to let God have the control. To give it back to him. To not try to "fix" my H. Either he gets it or he doesn't. I pray the God will help him see.

The kids in counseling with him...this is something MC is suggesting for the near future. Problem is, the kids will not "confront" him, at this point. They need help to learn to be able to defend themselves. We all have a fear of "confronting" To suggest to H that he is hurtful brings out huge defensiveness in him. H has convinced son that he has done no wrong. That I single-handedly destroyed our family. What a mess! I welcome any suggested reading. Someday, hopefully, we will get to the point that H will be open to change. I know I can't wait forever.

Ok-I'm not gettin a lot of response on this one. I am feeling like maybe I'm an idiot. On another board that I have posted on, the people generally tell me that he's abusive, he'll never change (permanently), and that I should go through with the divorce to protect my children and teach them that this treatment is not acceptable. Do y'all agree with that?

My biggest "problem" lately is that H is still encouraging our son to believe that I alone caused this break up. We just went through this again 2 nights ago. I, again, tried to tell my son that WE had problems. WE needed to learn to treat each other better and be better parents. Son told H what I said. H gets upset and tells son that H did nothing wrong. Even when H seems to be working with me, behind my back he is playing the alienation game.

Does this seem like a hopeless situation?

I can't tell whether your M will work out or not, but I know what you mean about wanting him to acknowledge these events. My IC said to forget it. He couldn't admit these to himself, and he probably would never admit them to me. Esp. those in which he was a bad father. Noone wants to admit that they were a bad parent.

I would suggest that you work on your own recovery and realize that you can change your actions and reactions, but can't control anyone or any situation. It's a freeing feeling.
God Bless you and your family.

janemh -

It seems to me that you have two problems right now.

One is your marriage and one is the relationship that your H has with the kids.

After being in counseling and having my kids in counseling, I have learned that your H's behavior is not normal, and if he continues to act this way to the kids without any intervention from you, then the chidren will be messed up.

This is my two cents.

I was married to someone like your H although I didn't know it at the time, and my kids were still little. However, I have since learned that his leaving, although due to an affair, was the best thing for our family. And this is why.

The children need to learn about normal Christian relationships. And in my marriage, they would have never gotten to see this.

With that said. Divorce is the most horrible thing on the planet. The children HATE going from house to house, and I hate not being able to see them 100% of the time, and now courts are giving children to the fathers 50% of the time. So I am not advocating divorce.

So, what do you do.

First, I would buy the book, The Power of a Praying Wife and The Power of A Praying Parent by Stormie Omartian and start praying the prayers for your H and kids asap.

Then I would really look at your marriage. You say you are separated. Look at the finances - is your H providing what he should? Are there any assets that you have that are in danger of being sold or spent by H? Make sure that your financial house is in order - FOR THE KID'S SAKE. And know too that divorce costs money - and money up front, so I'd start saving for a rainy day.

Now look at his relationship with the kids. Does he see the children? And on a regular basis?

You may want to do some individual counseling too, so that you can get a clear picture of your marriage.

If you are separated, how long will it be before H finds someone else and decides to have an affair and move on? If you read His Needs Her Needs, if you are not meeting his needs, he is vunerable and will find someone - even if it is not purposely to fill them, and then you are in trouble and may not have any choice in the matter.

Perhaps you should start doing a Plan A. Print out the Emotional Needs and Love Busters questionaires off of this site and fill them out as if you were your H. And start fulfilling his needs and stop love busting. You will need to do this for at least 6 months to see any results, especially if you are separated. The theory is that once his love bank is full he will WANT to change, and fulfill your needs. Then he will want to work on marriage and kids.

Now, in the meantime, besides praying for H, you need to either get the kids in counseling or talk to a child counselor yourself because the kids are feeling the effects of the separation, believe me and they need a neutral party to talk to about it. And they ABSOLUTELY do not need to be privy to who did what to whom, tell them that it is between their father and you and that it is an adult issue, which they do not need to think about.

The kids need to be able to express their feelings and a way to handle them needs to be taught to them. A counselor may give the kids the strength they need to confront their dad.

Now, know this. The reality of the situation may be this. Your H may not be capable of being the loving and understanding father right now that you want him to be and even the kids confronting him may not work. He may just be someone whom they cannot depend upon to talk to and get results. This may not happen until your H matures. If that is the case then the children will learn that dad is not someone who they can talk to, in which case, you need to be available to talk to and provide other male role models for them so that they can learn that all men are not like your H.

Ok, so you need to work on your marriage but also work to help your kids. This will not be easy. And eventually you will have to make a decision about what to do unless you plan on being separated for your entire life and that is not a good Christian example for the kids either and your H or you would probably end up having an affair.

In a marriage, the people need to be together. There are some books about controlled separations which may also help you. But if you are not working toward repairing your marriage then what is happening is that the marriage will slowly be torn apart.

Read the info on this board, you can have a wonderful marriage if both parties needs are being met. So if this is the riad that you want to try, then try it. Give yourself a deadline - say 6 months and then give it all you got. While doing so, keep in emotional touch with your kids, and do what it takes to help them.

In that time, either your H will will come around, or he won't. But then at the end of the 6 months you can make a decision about whether to continue another 6 months or not.

And if you don't have a supportive marriage counselor then you need another one.

But the key is to get your H to a place where he feels comfortable addressing his past or at least to a place where he will learn to parent his children in a healthy way. And if you have a strong marriage those two things should follow.

I hope some of this makes sense. I do not advocate divorce, but I also know that you can't live in separate houses forever because an affair will ensue, and for the kid's sake a valiant effort should be made because the rewards are tremendous, however, there are some people who do not want to change and who will never change.

So your job is to do all you can to save the marriage and then reevaluate and go from there. K