No worries Pepper! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> The "show" was somewhat entertaining to read to be sure. It just got a little heated as it went on, and so I made the remarks about getting back "on topic".

You're a smart gal and it's always informative to read what you post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I have a lot of respect for you.

Jen

sufdb,

While I agree with much of what you said, and yes, I agree wholeheartedly that many of those that are betrayed are not nice people either, and the fact that they were betrayed does not all at once make them holy, righteous, or otherwise. I disagree with several points which you have raised.

I think it ludicrous to try to equate rape and betrayal. These are two completely separate instances with different background, reasons, and thoughts. They are truly apples and oranges.

However, I take point with you about your thought that vows, promises, etc. should not be inviolate. They are the framework by which we live our lives. Saying that only those that can enforce the rules would rule is ridiculous. It is not by those that rule, but by the nature of those en mass that set the standard. We have become a nation of people so preoccupied with ourselves and NEVER judging the behaviors of our neighbors that we have lost site of what we are all about. In the world as you seem to perceive it, there would ONLY be rule by force, because no one would be required to uphold that which they stated. NOT vice versa. For the masses to merely disregard an action that is detrimental to the whole will be that which will cause the mass to crumble.

We see that every day in that we look at a person who has commited a 'grievance' and say tsk tsk. Then we go to our afternoon soccer games or walk into our backyards and start the barbeque. WE allow these sorts of behaviors to be acceptable. There are no ramifications for their occurance. Vows, words, promises... We have allowed them to become meaningless.

If a person works for a company and signs a document that says that he will not divulge secrets to another company or use the company's knowledge to further another's project. That person is obligated BY LAW. If he then goes to work for another company or divulges that information, there are laws that will punish that person. This is thought by our society to be improper, hence we have decided that we as a mass, as a community will not tolerate the bahavior.

However, when a man and a woman vow to each other, their families, their friends, and perhaps their God... that trust is so much more binding than a simple document signed at an employer's desk. It has meaning far beyond that which it superficially represents. However, we as a culture have chosen to disregard a person who steps out of this contract, because we are not willing to clean up the mess. It is easier to tacitly approve of the action by disregarding it rather than to hold the person responsible for their actions. There is no punishment for breaking this contract. It has so little meaning that in many states, it is not even a factor in splitting up the marriage assets. It is meaningless, this thing that has shattered so many lives carries only what little shame the commiting person deems he or she will bear then nothing else matters.

I know that many BS have been active participants in the destruction of their families. I know that in my own case, I assumed too much... I thought that we were on the same wavelength without taking the effort to ensure that I understood. I did not do everything that I could in order to make our relationship grow. I accept that. I know that others have harangued, turned frigid, abused, become addicted, etc. their spouses. They are guilty of those actions within the marriage contract as well and should be fully held accountable.

I do not take this lightly, because even after the failure of my own marriage, I believe that most can be saved given time and attention. While I absolutely believe that it is what you do after the betrayal that makes or breaks a marriage, it is not simply enough to say that we can chalk it up to a learning experience. This break of trust is not just buying a new shirt and saying you have had it for a while. It is not disagreeing about rearing the children. It is a true SEPARATION of the marriage. The other things that occur are learning experiences. But they are for the greater good of the family.

Betrayal in any form is not about the marriage. It is about the person. I am not at all saying that alcoholism, abuse, etc is for the family. Please don't go there. What I am saying is that in any other form, a disagreement is usually about what is thought to be best for the family. Betrayal is never about what is best for the family. It is all about the person engaged in the betrayal, and the complete and utter disregard for the other spouse. It is doing something that is so detrimental to a marriage, and not just doing it, but doing it KNOWING just how detrimental it is, and doing it anyway...

It has nothing to do with being righteous... it has nothing to do with being right... it has EVERYTHING to do with being hurt, but not just hurt, you are purposely hurt by a person whom you trusted, usually beyond all others. This is not simple experience. This is not just something that you can say, "OH WELL, I will do better next time." This is life... This is family...

My children will never again have both their parents tuck them in at night... is that experience to them? They will never again wake up and be able to have breakfast with mom and dad... is that just experience? These may sound trivial, but my boys are the biggest reason why this divorce and the betrayal hurt so much. Because I had essentially vowed to them by being their father that I would give them the best life that was possible. There is a better option available to my children than what they are to lead, but it will be forever out of my reach to provide this for them because of repeated betrayal by my ex. Is this simple experience? They will grow, obviously... they will be loved, I will be sure of that... they will never want for anything, but why not have it all?... Is this something that my boys should experience? Are the nights of passion or the afternoons of sex for my wife's pleasure worth more than the solidity of our boys' lives?

The truth about infidelity is that it goes directly to the heart of trust and family. It is something so very distinctly incongruous with the preservation and growth of family and marriage as to be antithema. That is why it hurts so much. It hurts not for me... but for my inability to shield my boys. It hurts similarly for most I believe, however I could be wrong.

So where does this leave us? With a 50% divorce rate with a high percentage of infidelity. With the NORM becoming abnormal. With the thought that what is best for me is what counts. With the thought that vows, promises, and a person's word is only as good as it fits then it is no longer valid, and without warning can be changed with no recourse by the person to whom it was made.

It leads us to the United States 2003. Where no one is responsible for themselves, but everyone else is responsible to me. Where freedom of speech is felt to mean that I can say whatever I want without consequences, and if anyone presses consequences, then they are not following the freedom of speech edict.

This does in no way mean that we browbeat the betrayer... We do not abhore the person, but the action... the behavior. Yes, it is what occured, but is there redemption in the person? Is that person trustworthy in other aspects of life? How can we bring our wayward spouses back to our family while we in turn learn ourselves and how we can make our family a place where he/she wants to be?

That is the trick that we often forget. We rely on the vow and forget that if the place is rewarding, then a wayward person will be more likely to desire to rejoin. Unfortunatley, some spouses have already found a 'joy' in someone else, and refuse to see the rewards of their changing family.

It all comes down to the fact, I believe, that a vow is only for the person who makes it. For that person only will hold the vow as active and something worthwhile. Should that person's character be such that the vow means nothing to him/her, then the vow was meaningless the moment it left their lips. It would be better to have said nothing than to help another believe that you were sincere.

Hi Jen - hopefully this is still the best place to answer your question. If people ask why, I say that my wife was seeing other guys, but I don't go into gory details or insult her personally. Usually I follow up by saying that I contributed to problems in our marriage, but people will assume that anyway. I can say that our custody arrangements have been smooth, but the financials are contentious.

Most people don't ask wny, especially as time passes. Maybe they have heard my wife's version, but they assume that another side exists. Some of her girlfriends told me as much. I think that I'm judged mainly on how I handle the kids, and I have over a year's track record on that since our separation. Especially with kids involved, nobody wants to take sides.

Some people, family and close friends, deserve an explanation. It's not enough, and it's not honest, to say we just couldn't work things out because that trivializes the commitment of marriage. But there is no need to rub it in.

This thread mentions another idea, of maintaining one's self-respect. I think that both parties must discard (temporarily) their self-respect in order to begin a recovery. My wife finally agreed to counseling at the end of January, but we only went one time. She held out no hope of reconciling, wanted me to apologize for causing all the problems, only wanted to go every 2 weeks, and was still having an overnight guest. I thought it was just a stalling tactic. The counselor thought she wanted some resolution to help her move on. When I offered to split the cost of subsequent sessions, she refused.

After three-to-six months of plan A, I would have pressed on with a joint counseling opportunity regardless. But after a year of plan B, her state of mind just didn't cut it. Neither one of us would yield our self-respect. I needed to hear something from her without all the "yes, buts".

Now I am okay with the divorce, don't need to demonize her, and have recovered most of my self-esteem. I still have resentments that she is dragging out the process for financial advantage, because of our state laws; some of what she does is deception, but otherwise it has nothing to do with infidelity.

Anyway, to conclude. Whatever reasons are given for the divorce - affairs, emotional distance, money problems, alcohol, etc., most people don't want to hear too much of the details, and they will know they only have half of the story. To be overly fixated on the reasons, makes the teller look bad.

- Tom

Jen - OK I have read none of this thread - though when I have the time I will go back and read - because it sounds from the last few that it took quite a twist - but in answer to your question ??

What do you tell people why you divorced???

I usually tell them that well my husband wanted to date while I was married and I had a huge problem with that.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

jen,

I'd posted something unrelated to the topic, but came back and edited to get things back on track.

You know, I struggled for SOOOOO long trying to handle the logistics of what happens afterwards...what to tell people, should I tell people, how to share this information with those I care about, etc.

After much thrashing about, I really had no way to discuss my situation without sounding like I was blaming my ex or alternatively descending into endless self-flagellation. Neither situation could describe the whole truth. So, that is exactly what I tell people. I don't tell people I cheated on him and I don't tell people he abused me. Both of us hurt each other immensely. What point does it serve to say who hurt whom more? Our marriage is over, and that's all.

<small>[ April 28, 2003, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">....why didn't you leave your H instead of inflicting an A on a union that offered so little hope? doesn't seem that you gained anything.....am I missing something??
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and, here ya go... the number one, most frequently asked BS question of all time.

You know, stating the obvious does not require a whole hell of alot of skill. Falls under the "sky is blue, sun is yellow" category.

<small>[ June 22, 2003, 03:46 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

There is dignity in silence.

<small>[ June 22, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

???Orchid, why did you bump this one back up???

Jen

Since this was bumped back up i thought I would add my 2 cents...My H had an affair and to MOST people, all they know is we have had some problems etc....But my close friends and co-workers know...I have always been an open talker and it my defenses come down very easily, unfortunately this has caused me to occasionally say "damn, why did I say that??", but for the most part I have opened up to close people, and they have been supportive and incredibly supportive of my need to continue trying...My H only knows of 1 or 2 people knowing and I don't want him to know that a few more know as we have the same work place (not the same co-workers though), and I don;t want him to feel weird or ashamed around them...The fact that he doesn't know a few know and they met up over the past 9months shows they show no judgement to him. I do wish I had the gift of secrecy but like I said I open up easily to people and I feel more peace when I open up...Never would I use it as a way to shame him...

JMO--D