What do you tell the people who ask why you divorced?

I was at a small social gathering tonight, and in the midst of one conversation someone asked someone howcome a certain couple split up. The answer was, "Oh he had affairs on her."

My H has already taken to telling his parents, his brothers, 1 of his grandparents, his aunt and uncle, not to mention about 5 people he works with that I cheated on him, and we're only separated at this point.

He said he had to tell them the truth b/c they all would otherwise assume he cheated on me.

So what do you tell people about why you divorced? Do you protect your former spouse's reputation, or do you tell the blunt truth? Why do you tell it the way you do?

I feel sick inside imagining my H telling everyone and anyone for the rest of my life that we got a divorce because I cheated on him.

Jen

Well Jen,

that is the one of the downsides of learning the hard way.

Second, there is an easy way out, because you do not have any kids, you simply move away to a place where you and your X's social groups do not ever mix.

Now, granted, that might take a little time, but now you must learn from your mistakes, realize that bad reputations and gossip spread much farther than good news, and everyone wants to feel good about themselves knowing everyone else's misery and faults.

Well, my suggestion is to learn to accept that you have made a mistake that is tops on the gossip list, is one that is grave and serious, and can break trust irrepairably. And now, find a new life farther away from where you currently live, and start all over again, and be sure that you have some counseling to understand how you got yourself into this situation.

wiftty

Hey jen, i tell anyone that asks why i got divorced the first time, my wife found a "better" guy at the bar, of corse he dumped her before we even divorced, and so did the last 4 "great" guys she met, she's still single after 12 years, must be that great personality that keeps guys running the other way... in fact i usually say she did me a favor, because i would have endured her crap forever. If he blames you, why should he keep quiet about it, you messed up and he's hurt, what do you think he's going to say??

Jen

---I was at a small social gathering tonight, and in the midst of one conversation someone asked someone howcome a certain couple split up. The answer was, "Oh he had affairs on her."---

TR- They ask because they are nosey..

--My H has already taken to telling his parents, his brothers, 1 of his grandparents, his aunt and uncle, not to mention about 5 people he works with that I cheated on him, and we're only separated at this point. ---

TR- He told because he felt he needed to be open and honest with them..and so that they could be supportive of him and his hurt..

--So what do you tell people about why you divorced? Do you protect your former spouse's reputation, or do you tell the blunt truth? Why do you tell it the way you do?--

TR- I guess it depends on who is asking..some people it's none of their business so that is what I tell them..

If you feel obligated to protect your spouses or ex-spouses reputation..then do so..if you feel a need to be honest with them..then be honest with them..

--I feel sick inside imagining my H telling everyone and anyone for the rest of my life that we got a divorce because I cheated on him.--

TR- Why do you feel sick inside? You made a huge mistake as many of here have done..can you accept you made this mistake and learn from it, learn why you felt you made that choice for yourself?

And most importantly--have you sought and accepted God's forgiveness? have you also asked your H to forgive you? He may not be able to forgive you at this time..and that is okay, because that is between he and God..but when we seek forgiveness, it's for US..not the other person..as the Bible says that if we remember that our brother has ought against us, or we have ought against our brother, we are the one's who are supposed to go and seek forgiveness--(paraphrased)

BUT, their forgiving us is between them and God..as the Bible also says that if we don't forgive others, God won't forgive us..(Mat 6:14-15)

Now in that...I also see that means we are also supposed to forgive ourselves..in that God says we are supposed to forgive those who have ought against us or hurt us..and when we live in guilt from our actions that is a form of ought against ourselves..

Don't worry to much about what is said to or by others as they are not your judge--just know that if You've truly sought God's forgiveness, He has forgiven you..and that His opinion of you is really all that matters..if others opinions of you are MORE important to you than that of God's then you are placing them above God..and you are in essence making them a god over your life..

That in my humble opinion is what it truly means to be 'free' in Christ..

Perhaps it is all part of the selfishness that led to me being dumb enough to have an affair, but I am not willing to hang my head and move away to some other place away from my family and friends and my job that I've worked so hard to establish myself in.

You see, if my H intends to blab all over town, does that mean perhaps I should be equally as blunt and truthful and tell the world about his inappropriately close relationships with 2 of his female friends/colleagues? Somehow I don't feel like stooping to that level and tarnishing his reputation. I still love the man and don't want to bring him harm....

"TR- He told because he felt he needed to be open and honest with them..and so that they could be supportive of him and his hurt.."

He also told them because several of them were accusing him of having had an affair with one of the two close female friends of his.

"Why do you feel sick inside? You made a huge mistake as many of here have done..can you accept you made this mistake and learn from it, learn why you felt you made that choice for yourself?

And most importantly--have you sought and accepted God's forgiveness? have you also asked your H to forgive you? "

I feel sick inside because I never wanted to be this evil person that I've become, the selfish, cheating adultress. That's not who I am, it's what I regretedly did. I can accept the mistake and learn from it, yes. I've been to counselling, I've learned A LOT about myself and my marriage.

I have asked for God's forgiveness, time and time again. I know I was granted it the very first time I asked, but when I find myself mired deep in guilt over what I have done, it feels like I need to ask for his forgiveness again to forgive myself.

"TR- I guess it depends on who is asking..some people it's none of their business so that is what I tell them.."

I guess that's what I wonder, how many people are viciously agressive about telling any and all people who ask that their spouse cheated on them, and how many of you have chosen to tell most people (who aren't family or close friends) that it's none of their business.

My guess is the non-Christians agressively tell all who ask the brutal truth, and the Christians tactfully say "things didn't work out, and beyond that I don't care to discuss it."

For those of you that think it's time to attack a FWS and try to make her see how much pain she has caused, I have been living and breathing that pain, and am more than well aware of it.

Jen

Jen,
I didn't tell many people, including my family, when I found out about my H's affair. I found out in Aug. and my grandmother had just died. I felt incredibly lonely and even though I had a lot of friends, could not tell anyone. I was ashamed and shocked and felt that I was going through enough pain then to tell other people and have them feel bad for me. So I only told a co-worker and she helped. But then my H told his parents and lived with them and even though they knew what he did, his mom still cooked/cleaned/did laundry/bought things for him, and it devastated me. I don't think his mom did it "against" me, but it still hurt to see someone taking care of my WH when I was alone. So in October I told my best friend and in November when he said it was over I told my dad and my brother (actually WH told my brother because they were close friends- my brother was so upset) and more friends. I told my mom in Dec. My H was not doing anything to help me heal and he kept keeping in contact with her. He started divorce in December and was an absolute monster and I changed papers to say adultery and then he started coming back and acting like he missed me. Come to find out, he told me in Feb. that he had found out she was pregnant 12/15 and that it scared him and woke him up to the terrible things he had done to me. I was devastated again and didn't want to tell anyone about the baby. We were going to work on things, but he told his parents when I asked him not to (he hasn't seemed to get the concept in Gen. 2:24 about leaving mom and dad and cleaving to your wife) and they freaked and want him to be a full time dad and think our marriage is irrepairable. SO this brought guilt/doubt in my WH's mind and then I think he was unsure already, so he left me again a week later and said he had to be a full time dad. I still waited a few weeks to tell anyone about the baby, but my mom started noticing i was being weird so I told her and then told more family. I finally told some friends. It is just SO amazingly hurtful- some days it is hard to breathe. So if your H tells people, don't think it is to spite you necessarily (it might be, I don't know but for me it wasn't) but to try to make sense of it, and to quit hiding things and to accept reality. Sometimes I do now catch myself telling people that don't need to know, and I feel bad about that- I can tell it is because the hurt is still fresh. In that way I do think it is wrong to blab. But overall for me, it is a way of healing, and also because yes, I do want people to know that I did not commit adultery, so that if I were to get married again in the future, other people would know I did what I could to save my first marriage. BUT People's opinions matter much less than God's Word, and God forgives all things. I truly hope that H and OW turn their lives around and I pray for them many many times- I know that they could be great witnesses and examples of Christ's undying love. I hope you use your experience to overcome the guilt and the nastiness, and that you are able to know that God does forgive and that you can change your whole life around and people will see your light.
Take care......
Adgirl 48 (michele)

Oh and one more thing- your H was wrong if he had an EA with "close female friends" and I am sorry if he hurt you in that way too. I know that I was not the best wife I could have been either, and I do try to reflect that I needed to change some of my ways too (patience, less anger, etc)

Here's what I do...I told my friends and family what happened, and a few co-workers who I am close to. I told them we were getting divorced and the reason is because she cheated...usually, I do add that we are both responsible for growing apart, but I think that the marriage was saveable until she had an affair and lied repeatedly to me.

I don't announce it to the world, because frankly, I am ashamed that I have gone through a divorce. It's an embarrassing part of my life and I really don't want to discuss it more than I have to. I'd like to move on.

Most people don't ask me about it. I'd prefer it go through the rumor mill because I don't like having people feel sorry for me (that's the response I get when I tell people).

I protected her reputation for months, and she repaid me by leaving. I have no intentions of smearing her, but when people ask what happened, I tell the truth. I don't get into details because people don't ask for them (unless they've got issues of their own).

I've said it before, that I believe your H most likely did have an affair...he may realize that other people probably feel this way too and is trying to protect his own reputation by throwing all of the mud onto you.

Things are not always as they seem...a pre-emptive smear campaign should not be taken at face value...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jen Brown:

My guess is the non-Christians agressively tell all who ask the brutal truth, and the Christians tactfully say "things didn't work out, and beyond that I don't care to discuss it."

Jen<hr /></blockquote>If it is your reputation you are worried about, I suggest you avoid bigoted generalizations such as this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

adgirl, thanks for sharing your perspective.

hoping4best, indeed I feel like he's slinging mud at me to detract from negative attention coming his way for his behaviour. That's what frustrates me.

"I protected her reputation for months, and she repaid me by leaving."

This is an example of why, against all the recommendations of my friends and family, I feel like just waiting until he files for Dv, even if I have to wait quite a while. I don't want him to be able to tell people that not only did I cheat on him, but I left or I filed for divorce too.

However, I did sort of leave him. I moved out when he suggested the possibility because I was fed up with being treated poorly by him. He wanted nothing to do with me during the day, but would come home at night horny wanting sex, without committment.

superfr3ak, you're right. I let my anger get ahold of me here. Sorry for that remark. I can't stand it when people go off about "the Christian thing to do", so I shouldn't talk like that either.

Jen

My x and I divorced 13 years ago. Anybody who knows me well, knows that my x cheated numerous times. I didn't tell so that he would look bad. I told (and continue to tell) because I have nothing to hide or be ashamed of.

However, I didn't tell a soul while we were still married, nor have I ever told his family. I wanted him to be able to maintain his dignity with his them. That's all the consideration I feel I owe him.

His family, friends, or anyone else who asks... I tell them what he said --- he decided after 13 years of marriage that he didn't want children, didn't want a wife, and didn't want to be here - and he left!

That's what happened. If he wants dignity - he has to earn it!

Jan

Oh yeah --- he tells everyone I ran him off and pitched him out of the house, to which most of his friends reply "What took her so long?"

Needless to say - he's not a favorite person - even in his 'circles'...

[ April 19, 2003, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: sj2 ]

JenBrown,
I am glad Superfr3eak said that about a bigoted generalization, and I know you apologized and that is fine, but since it is out there....
BECAUSE I am a Christian, I tell people the truth when they ask. This is because as a Christian, I am to be committed, responsible, loving and TRUTHFUL. I have spent the last 8 months dealing with a lying WH who wanted me to just tell people he was immature. I am not doing that. God hates divorce, and while lovebusting does not help a marriage (and I did plenty of it) the only reasons He gives for allowing divorce are adultery and an unbeliever leaving a believer. I have admitted and confessed to having too much anger and impatience. Because my relationship with God is so important, I don't want people to think that I just gave up on my marriage, when I did everything possible to reconcile. Much more than a lot of people would have, trust me. And I am still praying for God's will and for my WH to go to God and know that with Him all things are possible. I encourage you too, instead of worrying about what your H says about you, when people ask YOU - then you tell them the truth. It is a step to healing for YOU and confessing your sins and asking forgiveness will help bring you peace I think. And if people judge you- that is their problem. If you are truly repentative, God will help you - He loves you and is ready to lead your paths. It is like AA- "I am Jen, a recovering cheater"- you know- people do change and you don't always have to just be a cheat. Your life can mean a lot more. Just like "I am Michele- a recovering angry person". Everyone has skeletons. It's what you make of them that counts.

My statement of "I protected her reputation for months, and she repaid me by leaving" does not apply in your situation. Your husband hasn't protected your reputation.

I found out about my wife's affair in August. I suspected it from the beginning of 2002. However, even after finding out, I didn't tell anyone but a friend from college, who vowed secrecy, so that if she ever came around, she would not be smeared. Even after she left, I didn't tell anyone for a week and a half until I finally realized that it was over. After that, I didn't care anymore and decided to shine the light on what was going on.

If I were you, I wouldn't care what others think. If you do divorce and someone asks why, tell them your story like this:

"It was a marriage that had problems. Both my husband and I behaved inappropriately at times. I was hurting, and at a time of weakness, I cheated. After a few weeks, I realized the error of my ways, and tried to reconcile. After an extended period of time, my husband could not forgive me and treated me poorly (abusively???). I felt a need to move on with my life, so I left. I am not proud of my actions, and I have learned from my mistakes."

If you say something like this to anybody, they will realize that you messed up, but at least you learned from it. Most people will accept this.

Hope this helps...

my serious answer,

"because one of us had a MLC and refused to accept personal responsibilities."

In your case I would just say that "growing up mistakes were made that would not be forgiven." and leave it at that. leaves them wondering what and whom.

vagueness, and if you don't smear your X, and be private about it, you will retain more friends, and even find a few new ones, i suspect.

wiftty

It depends on their need to know.

"He had a midlife crisis when things weren't going his way at work and decided that he hadn't been happy for a long time." That's the answer sometimes.

"We had a management reorganization and fired each other." That's the answer for people who don't need to know.

"I couldn't keep house to his satisfaction and he couldn't deal with that though I met all his other emotional needs. Things weren't going his way at work with all his peers being promoted but he couldn't move up due to his boss not being easily promotable. And the grapevine had him linked to a woman with whom he was required to work. He said she was divorced, had two small children, no one there to help her and he felt sorry for her. He thought he had a chance at happiness and, though it was only a chance, he was willing to do to his wife and his children the same things he hated seeing in that woman's life." That's the answer I give to people who need to know the truth.

Jen,

My heart goes out to you. I've been following your story for some time. I wish my stbxWW had shown half the effort and remorse and desire to rebuild that you have. Had she, I know I wouldn't be here.

I tell people this: Our marriage had some struggles with her infertility and my epilepsy. Things weren't easy, but we loved each other. However, we had been growing apart for some time. Towards the end some things happened that accelerated the ending and made divorce inevitable.

She tells people and I know this from her having accidentally cc'd me on an email to one of her current cybersex lovers: I was neglectful and abusive to her for years. She was continually reaching out for me and just when she needed me the most I divorced her as payback out of jealousy.

The truth: is somewhere in between those 2 stories, but I think it's closer to mine. I was neglectful in that I was very focused on my work and worked WAY TOO MUCH. I need to change that about me. But, she was never abused. And it's only a matter of time before she either realizes it or gives herself up to a way of life predicated on never-ending lies.

Another truth though is this: in divorce there is a timeless story where the guy says the woman is a slut and the woman says the guy is an abusive lout. EVERYONE expects it. Mentally, I've labeled it Bitter Spouse Syndrome and when I catch myself doing it, I stop. Be different Jen. One of the worst things is a cheating heart. But even worse than that is an unremorseful cheater who blames everyone else and won't take responsibility. And, your spouse has some MAJOR issues too. I guarantee that his failings are VERY OBVIOUS to other people too.

My advice to you is to bring your story up into a greater/higher context of a struggling marriage and admit that you both made mistakes. Don't go into detail. Most people don't want the nitty gritty and ugly details. If they press for details and you feel that it's appropriate to reveal more... ask yourself... "Is my revealing that I had an affair going to help this relationship?"

If you decide to go into detail about what happened with you and that guy, I strongly suggest that you be ready to discuss and show the steps you have taken and the promises you have bound yourself to that will prevent it from happening again.

Only me, her, our counselor, and a couple friends that she told knew about her first 3 affairs. But after she left us and I found out about her fourth affair, I realized that my 'protecting' her was really enabling her. I decided that although I wished that it had never happened, and had almost killed myself trying to come to her side, there was nothing in her that was worth my effort. I decided that although I wouldn't run around preaching it, neither would I hide behind it. I was not ashamed. I hate it. I despise it. I would have done anything to put it down or deal with it had she even remotely tried. However the 4th man was more than I could bear. It was when she showed me that this wasn't about me, it wasn't a vague lapse of judgement... it was just who and what she is. She left, filed, and I thought OK.

I however, have not told any of her friends, co-workers (although her assistant principal was an integral part taking naked pictures of her for her internet lovers) or 'her' family, other than telling her mother about a single affair she had, and I didn't go into details. I just said that I had forgiven her for her affair, but she was leaving anyway. Literally those were the words.

She said that she just wanted to say "We just couldn't get along." Yep, I couldn't be what and who she wanted, many times over. I am proud of that, because she accused me of being a person who "Could never do anything that I knew was wrong." I only pray that is close to true.

I too, however went through the 'slut' phase early on. I figured, that it was the closest descriptor for her given her actions. But now, I am just sorry for her. I wish that our divorce didn't have to happen. But she has never made any attempt what so ever to try. I will not go back to what I now realize I had to deal with. But I would think about a new life.

Basically, your reputation is based upon what you are like and what you have done. I think that if the shoe fits... Then perhaps the reputation is deserved...

Jen,

Just a couple of thoughts...

If I had to guess, I would say that my XW's answer to "why did you get divorced" would be the old "it just didn't work out" line. I DO know that she told her new BF all about her infidelity, so I think it is probably on a "need to know" basis.

For myself, I spent the first year or so bitterly telling anyone and everyone that she cheated on me. After awhile, I actually got TIRED of telling the story! It was bringing me down, so I changed my answer. Now, when someone asks why we got divorced, I just say:

"That's easy...we never should have gotten married."

That seems to satisfy most people. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good Thread. No affairs in my M (that I know).
Lyxa's line <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I was neglectful and abusive to her for years. She was continually reaching out for me and just when she needed me the most <hr /></blockquote>would be what I'd like my H to say, because that's how I view it.
To those who don't need to know "He wasn't the man I thought he was".
To others, he had many problems I didn't realize, and I enabled his bad behavior, his poor parenting, and his inability to grow up.

I too had a problem with the IL's and still do, as they are enabling him even more than i ever did.

I tell people that I am learning every day how to become a better person and to understand why I allowed such a situation to occur when I am an intelligent woman. I am not ashamed to be divorcing, I am more ashamed of my poor judgement in choosing a husband. I saw what I wanted to see, and I see him much more clearly now.

Jen, it matters most how you are dealing with it inside yourself, and between you and God. I know I need to work on forgiveness, but I also know that God brought the right people (friends) into my life which allowed me to realize that D is the best decision for me.

It depends on the day I guess... some days I just say H had a zipper problem... other days, days I'm bitter, I tell all (and I'm a practicing Christian who leads a ministry).

It bothers me that after a year of being separated... I have bitter days... they are fewer and further apart, but I still have them.

I would hate being on the other side... I would hate for my H to say some of the things I say! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I hope you can hold your head high through this and hold onto your self worth!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Cjack,

I like your reply of never should have gotten married...

I tire of having to explain and now I don't say much. Easter was a difficult time today. I told my parents, who did relay the information to the rest of the family. My aunt saw me and felt very empathetic towards me and said she was sorry for my predicament...I stumbled around, said thank you, and basically said I was sorry too. I didn't even say anything more...it's just hard to come up with the words. I don't really want to bash her anymore. I want to just let it go and maybe in a few months or so, I will be able to. I really just want to be treated normally. I know people want to show their concern, but it's hard to relive the situation day after day telling people.

At work, I was sitting around with one of the guys (who didn't know what was going on) that I hang out with occasionally and another coworker who knows the situation. We were doing some trivia test online and I did well. They said, "you're smart." and my joking reply was "Yeah, I know trivia, but common sense is another matter." Just giving me grief, the co-worker who didn't know the situation joked, "Yeah, you got married." Needless to say it was awkward. "I replied, oh, I guess you hadn't heard. You don't know how right you are" and told him the story. He felt bad for saying it, but he didn't know, and he apologized. I told him not to worry about it. I said I didn't really know what to do...it's not something that you announce to the whole world and you just don't say "Guess what, I'm getting divorced" to everybody and their brother.

That's why I want this to go through the rumor mill...

Most people that knew us as a couple knew about my X's affair. It's obvious to everyone but me. So I don't worry about her reputation or what people will think. Add that to the fact that I like to laugh I came up with:

Them: Why did you get divorced?

Me: (In a serious tone w/a serious look) My wife had a sleeping disorder..

Them: (Usually with a concerned look) What was it?

Me: She woke up in other men's beds....

It usually takes a second to sink in and then we laugh and talk about it. It's amazing how they feel so at ease knowing that you can joke about something that serious.

I saw a good answer to this on a similar thread over a year ago, something like,

"we were different, she was into Chinese food and I was into fidelity"

jen,

i find that most of the ppl that offer the most support are the betrayed spouses... they, for the most part, are very kind and non-judgemental, but, also don't understand the heart of a women who cheated, but knew better... the torment we suffer. the guilt. the unforgivenss of self... it's very difficult...

i cheated on my ex while we were seperated... the emotional affair began before the seperation but the physical followed closely behind. it destroyed my marriage. to date my ex has not gotten over it and it has been 3 years now!!!

not to mention that he did some pretty painful things himself. he was not the innocent victim that he continues to portray himself as.

but the main point here is to answer your question... i tell them when they ask... i take full responsibility for the part i played and i don't blame him... that gives me back the integrity and esteem that i felt i gave away when i had my affair... sort of a redemption...

as far as your ex telling ppl... he wants sympathy, his feelings validated. you know all the stuff one would want if their feelings are hurt. but he also wants to defame you and hurt you... don't be ashamed. we all make mistakes. hold your head up and show everyone that you've learned from your mistake... it's called deliverence.

the hardest part is self forgiveness... i know about asking God's forgiveness over and over even though you know you received it upon the first asking... it's everytime you get confronted with your behavior by people who are really judging you, but implying they aren't that you feel like you need to keep having that conversation with God...

God loves you and He forgives you whether or not anybody else does or will... condemnation and being judgemental is not of God... we do have conviction of heart from God, but it doesn't result in negetivity if it's of God...if it's of God it will only promote positive growth...

stay up and have faith...
peace and love...
kim...

Jen, I guarantee that everyone he hangs with knows about his current living situation and whenever he opens their mouth, they find whatever he says incredibly hypocritical. Just protect your own integrity. Even in the midst of everything, there is something honorable, lovable, and courageous about someone able to get up, brush themselves off, and step out of a bad situation.

I promise that the people he's telling... are probably fascinated for about 5 minutes... and then the challenges of their own lives overtake that. I have had people come up and apologize to me for bad feelings based on some of the things my stbxWW was saying - 4 MONTHS after D-Day. Occassionally, things will happen to rekindle morbid curiousity, but you can't be courageous in a puddle of mud when you're flinging mud elsewhere. I hope you'll refrain from attacking him. I guarantee that his friends and family see his GLARING failures.

Thanks to all for your perspectives on this one.

Really, today, when I'm back to feeling like strong Jen (why can't this be me every day??) I know that I will likely just give most people who don't need to know the short answer along the lines of "we stopped treating each other well", and people who matter to me get the whole story. I've already told the full truth to many friends. I've gotten respect for owning up to it too. There's even one acquaintance of ours, that used to work with my H a few years back, that said she's got more respect for me owning up to my very damaging mistake, but that she really can't understand his behaviour now.

I know I can't control what he tells other people. I can only control what I say to people. I am done lying to people, so I'll likely tell them the truth if I feel they deserve to know. Coworkers don't need the whole truth though, that's for sure.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

Jen

Jen, this is hard. You want the truth to be told. But you also, want someone to have compassion for your heart.

I am going through the same stuff. People are asking me, why we are separated. I now can tell them that we are divorced. They say why, I say husband had a terrible MLC. And we are going our separate ways. I do say, this is what he wanted for a long time. And I have had to accept it, and have accepted it. I tell them, he is moving out of state. And that I will stay here, but am looking for a small house. I say, I want to put the house up for sale next spring, to stay while my youngest son is still in high school.

I met a realtor today, to look at a house. I am interested in this house. I am checking on codes, and other things. Told the realtor that I need to get some information about the house. Anyways, he knows my husband, and asked how the business is doing. I said, it is a little slow, but the economy is slow. He accepted it, and then I started talking about the house.

I met someone at the bank today. And they asked if the divorce is over. I said yes, and will be changing my name. They said they were sorry, and I just said, that is what he wanted, so now I have to move on, and am moving on. I said, he will go his way to Arizona. And I will stay here with my kids and youngest son. Said, I have to downsize, and get rid of things, cause I need money.

When you look at someone and they ask, that is hard. I have a hard time having eye contact, for fear that I might cry. I feel they sensed this today at the bank. Cause I said, I have to go, got things to get done, and need to go.

The situation that a divorce creates, is hard to deal with. Of course, there are those who don't feel anything about the divorce, and just smile and say oh well. But then there are those of us who are compassionate and have empathy. We take things to heart, and have a hard time dealing with pain and hurt.

You are dealing with the pain, and the hurt. You have been the betrayer, and this seems to have injured your feelings. But you did create the affair. Your husband didn't. Now you are dealing with the circumstances. You seem to feel guilty, and for good reasons. The best I could say right now, is telling those you want to that you both fell out of love. There was pain in the heart in the marriage. And that the divorce was the inevitable part of the pain.

Good luck.

Jen,

I must admit. When I read one of your first posts on this site I thought... "Here is another cheater wanting everyone to say it is OK." Well, I must say that I was wrong. Although I have not been posting for some time, I have read posts off and on and have seen a change in your posts.

I want to tell you personally that although I abhore what you did, I absolutely love the actions that you have been taking to rectify the situation. I hope that your husband is able to look past this issue and decide on your marriage as a whole, not this single incident. It might be that this is merely the proverbial 'straw', however, he would be a fool to think that this cannot be overcome if you both wish it.

Sometimes I am glad that my ex never attempted to reconcile. As I slowly detached, I was able to see the person for who she really was, not the 'wife and mother of my children' that had always meant more to me than her character and behavior. He might not want to continue the marriage, but if not, I hope that it is for other reasons than this. This is a tragic thing, but I believe that it can be overcome and make the marriage stronger. But only if both involved are trying and changing.

I am proud of you Jen. Which is not easy to say as a Betrayed Spouse. But I am. I feel for your husband, because I can relate so much to what he must be feeling. But I can also realize that at this moment and in this situation, I doubt that he is seeing the whole picture fully and clearly.

Cut him some slack for a while... he deserves to rail against the pain that he feels. However, continue to work on yourself, that way, when he realizes that his anger has subsided, he will be looking at a beautiful, loving woman who is still his wife. Then he will be able to make his decisions based upon something other than his remembered pain.

Hang tough and don't get dejected. Your choices have caused him alot of pain, and it is not easially discarded, no matter how much you pray and believe, it is still very hard to understand and therefore let go. But it will happen. The question is will you be there as you promised you would be during your wedding. Give the 'thick and thin' thing some time. It might be hard, but hey, I guarantee it isn't as hard as what he has to deal with. He will come around, and at least you will understand if you have done everything, then you can do nothing more and you will be a better person for yourself because of it.

If you leave the situation... then your chance to grow will be severely diminished I believe. If you have a goal, and are working on yourself in order to be a better person, then having that goal of your renewed marriage will give you direction and application.

Just my thoughts. I am glad to read your posts Jen. You do show me that sometimes lapses in judgement can be just that...

Jen:

Great thread. I told people around me only very long after the fact. My mother I only told that there was “someone else” involved, and my father I told nothing. I really didn’t tell any family anything damaging about her, or bleed on them in any way. I didn’t want in any way to portray her in a bad light, or possibly ruin her “reputation” with my family. A few close friends I told all, which would not get back to her at all in any way (people I trust to be confidential), and even those I told, I would always admit to being responsible for putting her in the position to do what she did, which is half-truth anyway, since it takes 2 to cause a breakdown in marriage, as a rule. I would always add to anything said about her, that I was only telling to convey my feelings of hurt, rather than trying to portray her as evil personified, which she is not.

You would do well not to indulge in any mud-slinging match, or airing of any dirty laundry. We’re all human, we all make mistakes, and in a couple of years all that will be remembered will be HOW you behaved, and with what amount of dignity you carried yourself through all this. Your H will indulge in a bit of “bleeding” on friends and family through all this, it’s natural to want understanding for hurt inflicted. Unfortunately, society at large is a bit judgemental when it comes to adultery, and not many will be sympathetic towards you. Only those closest to you, and the most mature on MB, will understand YOUR pain and hurt, in spite of your chosen way of dealing with your marital problems. Your H, on the other hand, is STILL chosing to deal with this problem in a certain way. He may be doing it also to mask his own EA’s. Point is, if you want to fix a M. problem, you address it with your M partner, not anybody else. Period.

What I WILL concede, in his defense, is that the betrayal involved his best friend. That kind of double-betrayal may be too much for him to handle. I cannot imagine what my reaction would be. My guess would be I would choose my W and reject my friend totally and finally. But I was married 14yrs and have 2 sons. He may be thinking that it’s preferable to “cut his losses” now, (no kids), and move on….on the other hand, he really loves you…major conflict that won’t be resolved overnight. You have to assume the “BS” role now: patience, understanding, Plan A, (has he stopped his EA’s?), YOU need to set boundaries now. Give it some time, and then agree with him on a time-frame for resolution (you cannot spend your life in limbo), by which time you will need to know if he intends to pursue the M or not. MB suggests at least 6 months to a year (for WS’s). This may be a good guideline even in your situation. It’s been 8 since your separation, but it should be OK to give him 6mnths from this point.

Do not let your guilt stop you from following the correct course of action from here on. You cannot keep on paying for this mistake forever.

Balance. It’s all about balance.
muzohead

I told family and good friends for support and cause the pain was too heavy for me to carry alone. When I was around people who I did not know well, I could hardly contain the heaviness. I think I told some people I should not have just for relief or release. Cause I was struggling so, I wanted people to know why I could not smile, or enjoy my life, or eat, or sleep. I do not carry burdens well.

If I did not know someone well, I would say that we separated and it was my H choice. I told my dentist that when he asked how my H was doing and he immediately responded, "Did (H) get involved with someone else?"

I feel as though I want to clarify why I LEFT. My H is a paraplegic and most spouses of paraplegics leave them. I do not want anyone to think I am so frivilous to leave a man cause of a condition he has so I want to justify my leaving to save face for me.

There is so many feelings and reasons for sharing and not sharing. Everyday is different and depends on the feelings I am struggling with. If I am in pain, I do sometimes say more than need be.

TW

My stbxh tells everyone that it is because (and I heard this one from a mutual friend as of two weeks ago) that we "grew apart.".

I say what was important to my husband made us grow apart. I don't usually come right out and say it, but most get it. And those who do know, I don't hold back.

He blamed me for his affairs and his unhappiness when they were his workings all along. He orchestrated it and the lies are still going strong.

I don't sling mud. But I don't enable his charade either. That's the whole thing. They hate to be found out. And I am sorry for that. But I am not going to lie. Iw ill try to be tactful, but not be a liar.

Sometimes you gotta stop running from the truth and just stand up to it head on.

I don't tend to put much faith in those who say their marriage ended because the other one had an affair--unless the person having the affair actually left the marriage to be with another person.

Doing so shows a lack of personal responsibility. I know my ex spread all kinds of stories about me in our "home" town. I have no desire to go back there anyway, regardless of what he said or didn't say. I consider the general attitudes of those in my home town partly responsible for the failure of our marriage in the first place.

I've also learned that people who ask those questions do not have one's best interest in mind. My usual answer is "If I knew the answer to that question, I wouldn't be divorced." Doesn't bash anyone, and the person probing for details doesn't get any dirt.

I'm not a big believer in letting people shame me, nor do I think that endless remorse via misplaced confessions to near strangers will get you anywhere. Most people are happy to nail you to the cross if you let them.

a perfect example:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I encourage you too, instead of worrying about what your H says about you, when people ask YOU - then you tell them the truth. It is a step to healing for YOU and confessing your sins and asking forgiveness will help bring you peace I think. And if people judge you- that is their problem. <hr /></blockquote>It is not a step to healing for you to lay out your problems to anyone who asks. It is an invitation to let other people abuse you at a time when you are most vulnerable. It's none of their business.

Heck, why not just cut straight to the chase and wear a scarlet letter around town? That would spare people the inconvenience of even having to ask. You know, if I had it to do over again, I probably would have painted my car with a big red A around the time I was getting a divorce, maybe even wear T-shirts that read "Adulterers are people too". or sport a big A tattoo in a prominent location. Might as well have fun with it.

Also, I strongly suggest that you limit your time here on MB. You don't need anyone's help here or more reminders about your oh so horrible mistake and your oh so horrible betrayal. You don't need to go over and over adnauseum how bad you feel about it. It's done. Finis. End of story. You'll only continue to feel like a WS as long as you feel the need to grovel--either here or elsewhere. The first step in real recovery for me was one day being able to tell some of the people here to stick it with their guilt trip. I did my time. Alot of people here have a vested interest in making sure you feel like crap as long as possible.

[ April 24, 2003, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: TheStudent ]

thestudent and jen brown:
Ok that was me that said this.
I encourage you too, instead of worrying about what your H says about you, when people ask YOU - then you tell them the truth. It is a step to healing for YOU and confessing your sins and asking forgiveness will help bring you peace I think. And if people judge you- that is their problem.

And I meant that, for your TRUE friends. I guess that sounded vague, but I didn't mean to tell strangers that. It is none of their business. I meant people who mean something to you, who you care about and don't want to have a rift in the relationship because of a half truth or a lie or a secret. So that is what I mean. And it is funny, because today, I found out from a friend that people are asking her all the time what happened with me and WH. I had told this friend everything and asked her to keep it to herself and she has, but she said people come out of the woodwork that have been "distant" friends with me, just dying to know what happened. These people are out for curiosity and nosiness and I do not care for them to know anything. It is amazing how something as sad as divorce gets people snooping?! My friend said that some of these people wondered if I was the one who did something. I said, let them wonder!! It is none of their business. Only people who care about me, who want to help me, who aren't going to totally go bezerk on my WH, do I tell. Yes, sometimes I got really sad and probably told people who had no business knowing but for the most part, no.
And Jen Brown, from what I have read from your posts your H is a WH himself, so it truly does take two to tango there- He needs to get the speck out of his own eye before throwing any stones at you. I try to not throw stones at my WH (It happens when I am really upset about his lies or deceit but it has gotten MUCH better) because I know I did things wrong in the marriage.
I hope you understand what I am trying to say, and that I don't think either of you should wear a scarlet letter or air your dirty laundry to everyone. That wasn't what I meant at all. I find hope here when I see OW or WS who have changed their lives for good.

Well if you commit adultery you should be responsible for your actions. I think most who do are in fact placing their marriages in critical condition.

I just wonder if some here, the WS's are truly sorry for their choices. Yep. Sorry.

Most of it is perspective and tact. I say what I said earlier. That I filed on multiple grounds. Hell, there are only so many grounds one can pick from anyway in GA.

But my stbxh appears to his new friends here who aren't aware of his abusive behavior, adultery and constant lying and gambling, that he has been made out to be a "devil" or something (hasn't paid us in almost five mo. now) and how "dare" me take him to court. Are you going to be a stand up person and stand up to your negative choices or are you going to be a martyr for all of those who just want to try to graze on greener grass for a while?

I took full responsibility for whatever he perceived as my faults in "helping" him have his affairs. He didn't really have valid reasons other than he likes new things. New cars every three years, new houses, new clothes, and yes, he treats people like possessions.

Part of MB program is to work on YOU and your shortcomings to aid in healing of the marriage. But not to ENABLE the WS to continue cheating. That just ain't productive ok? And there are definitely some partners out there who despite wanting to stay and work it out with their WS's that they find out their love bank has totally run dry and they just cannot continue after the affair. Hell it is devastating. It is nothing less than that.

And let's forget that marriage brings together two individuals and a family is created. And if kids are involved, it's even worse. So let's be honest. No more blame games. It's not the fault of the BS. They may have anger and rightly so. Do WS's believe we can stay in plan A forever without any anger? Like when Scott Peterson "lied" on national t.v. last night and said that his wife was doing well after learning of his affair...

My stbxh is always trying to cover up everything he has done. Even wants me to enable him. I don't. I just stay away. I don't bother him, but I ask him to do what is within the legal guidelines of divorce with regards to my son and this family. Sometimes the WS has to properly deal with their own demons and accept blame.

Nobody is perfect. WS or BS. But marriage is a holy union not to be torn asunder by man or woman.

The Student - would be something if a person who has an affair, were to wear a big RED 'A' on their forehead the rest of their life. If they did multiple affairs, maybe it would have to go down their nose, who knows. Just something I talked about early after the affair. And something that is critical thinking of your affair rudden spouse. But we can at least think about it!

Whew, I haven't checked on this thread in a few days, and there are so many posts! I'm not sure where to begin...

Faith4me said, "The best I could say right now, is telling those you want to that you both fell out of love. There was pain in the heart in the marriage. And that the divorce was the inevitable part of the pain." I didn't fall out of love with him. It would be a lie to say that. I still love him.

FormerlyConfused wrote: "I am glad to read your posts Jen. You do show me that sometimes lapses in judgement can be just that..." Thank-you for your immensely kind and encouraging words. If only my H could actually see me the same way.

"Cut him some slack for a while... he deserves to rail against the pain that he feels." But for how long do I cut him some slack? It's been 10 months. He's even asking for until the end of August "to decide." I will keep working on myself, I just worry that he's never going to work on taking care of himself.

I still really worry that he has ZERO intentions of reconciling with me, and is just using me for sex, while he saves up some more money to pay me the home equity that he'd owe me if we Dv. I mean, in the 10 months of separation, he's rarely wavered from coming to me for sex and leaving, or inviting me over for sex, and putting me out the door. I'm his dirty secret. I am not deserving of being out in public with him, for dinner, for a walk, for any reason. He had some strange woman he met on the side of the road into his house for a drink last weekend, and thinks there's nothing wrong with that. I could go on and on, but right now I am not optimistic about him really wanting to be with me.
(See my current GQ thread for more details if you want: "There's a woman at his house")

muzohead wrote (a few times I might add, lol):
"He may be thinking that it’s preferable to “cut his losses” now, (no kids), and move on….on the other hand, he really loves you…major conflict that won’t be resolved overnight." Actually, I am thinking the exact same thing!!!

"Give it some time, and then agree with him on a time-frame for resolution (you cannot spend your life in limbo), by which time you will need to know if he intends to pursue the M or not. MB suggests at least 6 months to a year (for WS’s). This may be a good guideline even in your situation." I have always thought to myself, I'll give him until the end of the year to decide, and here we are, almost at the end of May (the one year mark) and he's suggesting he wants until the end of summer (end of August, we are teachers) to decide. You are right, I can't live in limbo forever. But I have to say I wonder what his motivations are for asking for those extra 3 months. It could be he really wants more time to think, it could be he wants 3 more months to save $$ to pay me off, it could be he wants 3 more months to compare me to his female friends and choose between us, it could be he wants to wait until after his family has scattered his father's ashes in August, who knows.

Right now I am trapped, he gets to continue to be Mr. Controlling, and I have to live in limbo and wait until the end of summer I guess. I mean I could file for Dv, but the biggest reason why I'm reluctant to do that is the fact that I don't want to be the one to file for Dv. That and if/when I am permitted to join his family for the spreading of his father's ashes, I want to still be his wife, be a part of that family.

"Do not let your guilt stop you from following the correct course of action from here on. You cannot keep on paying for this mistake forever." Indeed, I worry that he'll keep giving me a logical reason to give him just a few more months to decide. I guess if he doesn't decide by Sept., I may just have to suck it up and file for Dv myself, and be "the bad guy" forever.

notpeachingya wrote: "what was important to my husband made us grow apart." Ooh, I like that one. I could even use it perhaps. But, right now, I feel like I would just tell people that "things changed between us, it just wasn't a good marriage anymore." I don't ever want to sling mud either. I don't ever want to say things to hurt my H, I still love him.

TheStudent: I see and appreciate your point about how coming to MB may be perpetuating my sense of guilt even more. I'm like an outlet for some BSs, but most treat me well.

adgirl: Indeed, I am not about to just tell "people" the truth. Very close friends and family, fine. The rest of the world doesn't deserve details, period. I refuse to give them. It's none of their business, no matter how good it may make some of the BS here feel to know a repenting FWS is running around confessing to the world "I cheated on my H and so we divorced." A person should not be defined by one mistake they have made. I understand that you weren't suggesting that I wear a scarlet letter.

However, the more I think about it, how dare people ask (and even expect an answer) why anyone's marriage ended. It's really none of their business, no matter what the reason is. If someone can't accept me telling them that I do not want to talk about it, then I guess I cannot accept their friendship.

Jen

faith4me,

That is the way things used to be. Have you ever read the Scarlet Letter? The woman in the story was condemned to wear the scarlet letter because she had a relationship while still "married" to a man who had been out at sea for several years and his wheareabouts were unknown. Kinda puts things in perspective, doesn't it. Not to mention the selfishness of a man or a society who would expect a woman to be celibate or be without companionship indefinately.

IMO, there are alot worse things someone could do to me that just have sex with someone else. My ex proved that. I respect that you and some others here think it is worse than being raped or abused (Harley's stance), I don't. What is horrible is the lies and deceit that often go along with affairs, especially extended ones. My "affair" was a one-night stand and, all told, lasted all of two weeks. The woman who initiated this thread had an affair that lasted three. There is a huge difference between the basically good person who momentarily fails during a hard time in their life, and one who intentially and with utter disregard to their spouse, continually does things to hurt them. My ex did that every day for the last year we were married, and less frequently in the years prior. He could have screwed 20 different women (like my first H did) and it wouldn't have hurt me as much as his daily name calling and insults. THAT, to me, is much worse than simply having sex outside your marriage.

I find it interesting that the bible offers no provision for a divorce when abuse is involved.

"Not to mention the selfishness of a man or a society who would expect a woman to be celibate or be without companionship indefinately."

Why did you say "a woman" and not say "a person"?

I thought that once "a person" takes vows, they have promised their body to their spouse. And when that spouse is unavailable by distance or by illness or whatever, then yes, one has vowed celibacy.

Isn't that what vows are?

Is it "selfish" to expect adults to honor their vows?

Take the "woman" thing out of it. In the book, the preacher she got pregnant by had a much harder, spiritually broken life, even though he did not wear the *Scarlet A *on his frock.

Pepper

The Student:

Yes I've heard the tale "The Scarlet Letter."

I do not think an A is worse than rape or abuse. I don't recall ever saying that. I recall someone having a thread on that topic, but don't recall agreeing! (Remember, I am the FWS too.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />There is a huge difference between the basically good person who momentarily fails during a hard time in their life, and one who intentially and with utter disregard to their spouse, continually does things to hurt them. <hr /></blockquote>I wholeheartedly agree. My A was, as some BS have even told me here, really two ONS during a three week period. My story isn't all that different from yours.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I find it interesting that the bible offers no provision for a divorce when abuse is involved. <hr /></blockquote>I've wondered about the same thing many times myself.

Pepper, I don't think it's selfish to expect spouses to honour their vows, no matter the circumstance. (I do think it's rediculous to have anyone wear a scarlet letter though if they make a mistake.)

Jen

pepperband,

yes, I think it is selfish to expect another person to honor their vows when they are unrealistic and harmful..which is why I can't take seriously any decree (like the one in the Bible) that only allows for divorce if adultery occurs or if the other person is an "unbeliever".

In the case of the story "The Scarlet Letter", I think what happened to her was wrong and malicious. That is why, if I had it to do over again, I WOULD wear a T-shirt saying "Adulterers are people too". If it is true that 90% of divorces involve infidelity, then there must be a TON of adulterers out there. Maybe some of them expected to feel as if what they did is worse than being a rapist, or whatever. At least, that is what Harley and some other people would have me believe.

Most of these people are probably decent most of the time. To make adultery the friggin' crime of the century just boggles my mind...and this is coming from a woman whose first husband had sex with 20 other women besides me. When people get married, they take other vows besides fidelity too ya know. Why it is ok to be an *sshole spouse as long as you don't have sex with someone else is also a mystery to me.

Actually, I kinda made that bargain with my ex at one time. I told him that I'd promise never to cheat on him ever again, but in return, he'd be f*cking a dead body. A shell. I'd do anything he wanted me to do, but the person who is me...the essence of who I am as a human being...he would never have. In return, he would have a "faithful" obedient spouse. Since fidelity, owning my body, and obedience were the only things that were important to him, he could have it. He would just never get the rest of me.

what I'm going to say next isn't directed at you in particular...just some ramblings about the topic at hand..what to tell other people.

In some ways, I'm not sorry that I cheated on my H when I did. If I had it to do over again, of course, I would have chosen a different way to cope. However, I think consequences go in more than one direction. There are consequences to alienating and degrading your spouse. Should your spouse take responsibility for choosing to have an affair? Sure. We are all responsible for our own actions. From an outsider's point of view, he had it coming. Too bad it had to come from me. I had better things to do with my time (and still do) than trying to pick my self-respect off of the ground because I made a bad choice.

In the final analysis, I'm glad he can blame our divorce on my affair and not on himself. I'm glad he lives in a town where women who pursue PhD's (like me) are freaks. Makes it just that more likely he won't consider his part in things and he will continue to fail in his relationships. In fact, I made it a point to tell him he did absolutely nothing wrong. That everything was my fault. I really, really hope he believes that.

[ April 26, 2003, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: TheStudent ]

jen,

You didn't it was worse than rape. Somewhere in the Harley literature he makes a claim that some BS's say that their spouses affair was worse than being raped or abused. It is a topic I've debated here many times. By making that statement, Harley, IMO, has raised the "crime" of adultery up the level of rape or abuse. While, the actions of some people in affairs do approach that level of harm, there is still a difference. Rape or abuse are actions that are done DIRECTLY to another person. There is absolutely no ambiguity about who the target of the harm is. Adultery harms another person indirectly. Harm is still done, yet I can still honestly say I never set out to hurt my H when I went outside my marriage. The OM was nice to me at a time when I had no other friends or family nearby, and for that I'm supposed to be stigmitized the rest of my life and supposed to take the sole blame for my marriage ending? I think not.

Prior to my one-night stand, I told my H I was afraid of him and he told me he didn't want to be married to me anymore. Besides that, his actions told me over and over again in so many words that he hated my guts. The fact that he didn't technically stick his you-know-what in someone else is irrelevant in my book. He was an *sshole and he had broken HIS vows over and over, many times, in fact.

Somewhere in the Harley literature he makes a claim that some BS's say that their spouses affair was worse than being raped or abused. .... By making that statement, Harley, IMO, has raised the "crime" of adultery up the level of rape or abuse.
Harley is not raising the bar on anything. It is the victims of rape/adultery who are raising it. This is in other books I have read also, not just Harley.

While, the actions of some people in affairs do approach that level of harm, there is still a difference. Rape or abuse are actions that are done DIRECTLY to another person. There is absolutely no ambiguity about who the target of the harm is.
Rape is generally committed to someone with little connection to the rapist. Adultery is done by someone in a position of enormous trust.
Treason is a crime which receives very little leniency and very severe sentences, whereas murderers get out in 10-15 years.

Why? Because of the issue of trust.

chris,

If I handn't been a "victim" of abuse and infidelity myself (my father was a violent alcoholic), I'd take Harley's word for it and call it a day. However, after having experienced some of what he is talking about first hand, I think I have something to say about it.

Also, it is not "generally true" that rape is committed by people someone doesn't know. The majority of rapes are committed by a family member, friend, or a date.

I've said it before and I've said it again... I think Harley and others make that statement in order to gain publicity and recognition for whatever they are marketing. In fact, I think Harley's methods are in part to blame for the pain of the BSs who come here by subjecting them to possible repeated betrayals by a WS. The only time a BS should have any incentive to stay at all is when the WS is remorseful. In that case, it is in their best interest to keep the WS around as long as possible so they can get their pound of flesh out of them. Something else Harley's methods tend to encourage. In any case, a WS has zero incentive to stay in the marriage. I can't imagine living the rest of my life as someone's pet poodle and having to keep up the effort to shower endless gratitude upon a BS for forgiving such a HORRIBLE act (comparable to rape/abuse).

The whole plan A plan B thing keeps people in marriages with a person who has no respect for them...not the BS and not the WS. He's sold lots and lots of books giving people false hope about their marriages after an affair has occurred and, in the process, has probably facilitated deep and persistent emotional damage in one or both people.

IMO, a marriage in which a known infidelity has occurred is not a marriage I'd want to be in. If someone discovers an affair, they are MUCH better off emotionally by immediately seeking a divorce. You wouldn't live with a rapist, would you?

Not only do they spare the WS from whatever abuse they think they are entitled to dish out, they are also not subjected to future infidelity. A win-win on both sides.

Student said: "He would just never get the rest of me."

I don't think you have yet to experience giving all of yourself to anyone. It has never been safe for you to do so. Growing up with an abusive alcoholic parent tends to do this to people.

You must realize how defended you are as a person. I see you as a sharp intellect who has a beautiful fragile heart made of cut glass ... covered by a suit of armor.

My very best wishes to you Student. Your journey will be complicated .... and, I fear, lonely.

Take care.

Pep

To be honest, Student, you sound like a man hater.

Your attitude, frankly, stinks. You talk about how your H was such an a-hole and that he was a jerk, etc. Did you ever consider your saying that you would not give yourself to him as part of the problem? I'm sure that you have used many manipulation techniques like this against people in the past. You probably did many other things like this to him. Now, you'll probably state that he did it first, but that just shows your childish attitude.

I'm not stating that all WS's are bad people here, but quite a few WS's are those who are selfish and walk all over people. Why should the truth not be known about what happened in the marriage. When I tell people what happened, I say that we both let conditions deteriorate, but she ended up having an affair. Ultimately that is her responsibility.

Have you ever considered that many BS's have been manipulated, lied to, and fed cup after cup of BS (the other kind) by their WS's. Maybe that is why they stayed, hoping that the WS would finally turn around their life. Is that the fault of the BS for believing that someone would do the right thing.

The methods proposed by the Harley's don't work for everyone. I'm sure that you could state that the methods proposed by any counselor or doctor don't work for everyone. That does not mean they are wrong.

You sound very bitter and angry, and I don't know your own situation. However, for someone pursuing a PhD, you don't act like someone deserving of high esteem.

My 2 cents...

Rape and Abuse are definitely bad. But abuse happened AS A RESULT OF MY STBXH'S D DAYS. He was very abusive to me when accidentally there would come a d day and I would express any resentment or displeasure (not a wild ourburst mind you.)

Adultery sometimes LEADS TO ABUSE. When my stbxh couldn't control the OW who was leaving "hints" here and there of her presence (of course she was always never to blame for leaving them), I would get the heat for it. For unpacking a bag and getting ready to just do a load of laundry and accidentally finding her harley davidson baseball hat (white and pink) in his bag...I got hit so hard in my forearm that I had a knot the size of a golfball and it turned black and was there for a few weeks. And only then did I realize that this had turned into an abusive relationship.

I did call the police to him after the next incident.

But saying that WS don't make us go through sometimes AS MUCH HELL as someone raped or abused is not a valid comparison because SOME OF US HAVE INDEED ENDURED VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU DID.

And it is funny. But it didn't start until his affiar and lies were in full swing.

And those members of the supposed 90% of divorces involving adultery probably feel just fine about themselves. After all, this society just (usually when no abuse is disclosed) will chalk it up to "they grew apart". Yea right. Our society has gotten so new age feely good that we can make anybody feel good about themselves when a decent ounce of repentance and conviction is really what's needed.

But those adulterers who go on and don't stop at least long enough to ask for forgiveness or try to right a wrong will keep on making the mistakes.

I have one last question: Chris are you STARPONY'S X HUSBAND?

And Student, I think you're rationalizing your past, siderailing what you did to justify your guilt, and think you have something unique to say that no one has ever considered before. You toss a bunch of tangential topics (of Help I've been victimized by INSERT FAVORITE TANGENT OF THE MOMENT) at the fundamental fact that you had an affair... heal yourself and keep your justifications to yourself. Your fog talk might seem intellectual to some people here... but it's still just a bunch of alien moon speak.

I'll take Jen's remorse over your intellectual self-conceit any day "student". There is a huge difference between people who have affairs... some say sorry and mean it... and some say sorry as a token nod and don't mean it. You remind me of my stbxWW. It wasn't her fault for anything... it was religion's, society's, everyone else's, and it just kept going so long as she didn't have to change anything about herself. No one was spared because it's easier to place blame than to take it. Maybe if you stood up and took the blame, people would stop dragging you through the mud... if they even are.

At least you can console yourself that what you did isn't nearly as bad as rape and abuse. Heck, if it's all comparative why not dig back into history and compare your affair to those things too? If you find something nasty enough, you'll look like a pure and spotless angel!

pepperband,

nope. I did twice, that's why I won't do it again. My ex was unwilling to make any changes in the relationship and in fact, insisted that the man should call the shots, be in charge, blah blah. so I said fine, if that is what you want, then that is what you will have. But in return, he gets a dead body. That was the tradeoff.

hoping4best,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Did you ever consider your saying that you would not give yourself to him as part
of the problem? " <hr /></blockquote>oh, I dunno. I look at it another way. Using the language of Harley, my ex had a "need" for a faithful, obedient wife. Mindless obedience is not what I bargained for when I agreed to marry him. In fact, I made it clear I was not and never would be a "traditional" woman in that respect. He seemed to appreciate my self-sufficiency and independence--that is, until the time came when HE was expected to make compromises for a change. Now, for people who appreciate honesty, well, I was honest when I told him that what he wanted came with a price. He could choose to respect me as a human being OR he could have my obedience (which my body would of course come with).

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You probably did many other things like this to him. <hr /></blockquote>Did WHAT other things like this? What manipulation techniques are you talking about? Everyone negotiates in a relationship. He wanted obedience, ok, then [censored] a "dead" body pal. I hope you know that I mean "dead" in the figurative sense, not literal. As far as I'm concerned, any man who expects a woman to be submissive and obedient might as well be screwing a dead body, or a blow up doll--for all she's worth. Unfortunately for alot of men, their wives have already made that trade-off. Their wives either don't want to have sex with them anymore or they just go along with it. Well, I figured, if I was going to go to the effort of being the obedient wife he wanted, the least I could do is deprive him of the satisfaction of believing I was into it or into him. That's how it goes.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> When I tell people what happened, I say that we both let conditions deteriorate, but she ended up having an affair. Ultimately that is her responsibility. <hr /></blockquote>You know, after reading some of these posts, I think it's time I changed my strategy. All this time I've just let people make up their own minds when they ask me that question. From now on, I think I'll just tell people my ex had an affair. If people believe you when you say that, then they should believe me when I say it too. Damn. Wish I would have thought of it sooner!!

lyxa,

blah, blah, blah, rationalizing blah, blah, blah fogblah, blah, blah justifications

spare me the sanctimonious lecture. I've heard it a zillion time before. Time for a new word book folks. My ex bled nearly every ounce of remorse out of me in the year following my confession, and MB people like you got the last few drops out of me. The only thing that keeps people like you happy is a never ending stream of groveling self-hatred. The way you people latch onto a remorseful WS is well, like maggots on a rotting corpse. Their pain feeds your need for revenge, especially if that pound of flesh wasn't something you got from YOUR WS. Looks like Jen is the catch-of-the day now. Which is why I advised her not to spend alot of time here.

...and I know something you don't. Nothing I do will force another person to do a damn thing. I will accept my share of the blame--which is exactly half and no more.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />At least you can console yourself that what you did isn't nearly as bad as rape and abuse. Heck, if it's all comparative why not dig back into history and compare your affair to those things too? If you find something nasty enough, you'll look like a pure and spotless angel! <hr /></blockquote>Nope. Not trying to console myself at all. Just putting things into perspective...and having been there myself--not just getting second hand information from people wanting sympathy--I feel qualified to have an opinion about it.

I suppose if you find enough WS's around to blame everything on, then you can convince yourself you were a good wife/husband, whatever. If you read my prior post, I did tell my H that everything was my fault and, in fact, I did take all the blame for our marriage ending. Of course, he accepted that explanation. Like you, he thought he was the perfect spouse and wouldn't have changed anything he ever said or did, in spite of how much it hurt me. I told him many times how everything was my fault, just to make sure it sunk in. You know, it was kinda like faking an orgasm. Made him feel good, and he didn't have to change a thing. That's what he wanted to hear, and besides, anything I can do to (after the fact) to make sure he doesn't change and keeps screwing himself, well that was a gift worth giving.

Besides, what do you care if they say sorry and it is a token nod? As long as they stop cheating, right? The reason why I wouldn't cheat again has nothing to do with my ex. Nope. I won't cheat again because a) it made my situation alot more complicated and difficult than it was before and b) I would prefer to deprive people like him and you the satisfaction and/or excuse to divorce someone and blame it all on them. I learned that it is alot more socially acceptable to remain "faithful", but otherwise treat your spouse like cr*p until they either divorce you or they cheat on you. Either way, you get the sympathy card, doncha? Even better...don't get married in the first place. Then your failures aren't public record.

Besides, my ex is some other woman's problem now. Maybe some woman who feels sorry for him that he was cheated on, no doubt. That sympathy card goes a long way, but it will only get him so far and it will only get you so far too. But hey, work it while it lasts. Make hay while the sun shines, and all that.

[ April 26, 2003, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: TheStudent ]

Wow, what's with all the defensive anger? I have to say that I personally latched onto the MB philosophy because when I read that many BS's feel as bad as if they'd been raped or abused, or however they phrased it, I knew I wasn't alone. That's how I felt! MB didn't put that idea into my head. Not saying it's wrong or right, just that it's true. That doesn't mean that I think my H should be treated the same for having an A as if he'd raped someone, of course not! MB has been a Godsend to me through all this because here I find other people who share similar feelings to those I'm going through. The support has been invaluable.

I counselled with Steve H. early on, and he told me after three weeks to go from plan A to plan B and only a few weeks later, to divorce my H (something he admitted he rarely advises) because of my H's abusiveness under the influence of drugs and alcohol. I followed his advice, briefly, but it was my decision, not on the advice of Steve H., that led me to believe my H's lies about wanting to reconcile and to drag the relationship out for another year. So, it's not my experience that the H's blindly mislead people with one generic response to infidelity.

I've learned here (and in Al-Anon) that the only person I can change is myself and that it was my own issues (low self-esteem, etc.) that put me in a relationship where I was subjected to both repeated infidelity and verbal abuse. I take complete responsible for my participation in the relationship, including the ways I took my H for granted and looked harder at his weaknesses than at his strengths prior to the time he lost his sobriety. But, while I take complete responsibility for my own choices, I don't take any responsibility for his, including the choice of the A, the repeated lies, manipulation, and verbal abuse. These were and are his choices. Taking half the blame for the demise of the relationship doesn't mean taking any of the blame for him choosing to have an affair.

I don't believe from what I hear on MB that most of us BS's are interested in extracting our pound of flesh. The presence of remorse would just indicate to us a willingness to work on the marriage, though even the Harley's state that remorse is not a requirement for reconciliation. And no one should be expected to grovel, ever, and not for as long as Jen has. Both parties need to take responsibility for the state of the relationship and work hard to save it, if that's what they want. It's not solely the responsibility of the WS, but I don't think any of the BS's here are under that illusion. In fact, in most cases, though Jen is an exception, it's the BS's who do more than their share of the changing, at least at first, in order to show their willingness to save the relationship - that's plan A.

As for the original question... the decision of what to say was mostly out of my hands because my H left very publicly with one of our employees, so all 25-30 people at work, and many others in our small town, knew what happenned, so people didn't have to ask. The public humiliation I felt just added to the pain while I was suddenly faced with running the business alone. Because I thought everyone already knew, I tended to say way to much to try to justify my own position and save face by playing the brave, innocent victim. I don't do this too much any more, but sometimes she still slips out...

letstry,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Taking half the blame for the demise of the relationship doesn't mean taking any of the blame for him choosing to have an affair.
<hr /></blockquote>My point exactly. And taking responsibility for an affair doesn't mean taking all the responsibility for the conditions that lead to our marriage becoming vulnerable to one either. That is the other point I was trying to make. Sure, there are cases where one of the spouses is a sex addict or something. My first H cheated on me the day after we were married, and had sex with 19 more women within the year and a half we were married. Hardly time for a marriage to develop problems. In that case, I tried to seek counseling with him after he told me about this problem of his, but he refused.

The reason why I object so strongly to what I consider an inflammatory statement made by Harley is because he had never been raped or abused as far as I know, nor has he been cheated on. I'm sure there are people who can imagine what it must be like to be raped or abused and put their pain at being cheated on in that category. Unless one has experienced those things first hand, and I have, I tend to take it with a grain of salt. Also, I have no idea what situations Harley is talking about when he makes those statements. I could imagine an extended affair being as painful as the years of abuse I suffered as a child, and got a taste of as an adult. I could imagine how horrible it would be to live with someone who constantly lies and sneaks around behind your back and repeatedly disregard your pains. Yep, been there, done that. But to make blanket statements about infidelity = rape is just irresponsible....again, coming from someone who knows, not just someone passing on anecdotes.

Translation:

"spare me the sanctimonious lecture....."

means.....

"Your moral standards present a threat to me. I much prefer a world view replete with moral relativism, and cynicism. I am not willing to apply a value or make a judgment based on moral standards."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Having a damaged world view does not make one an intellectual superior. Get over it.

Pep

Jen, with time, you're going to find something that works for you. As hard as it might seem right now, it's going to be much more difficult someday when you find someone who loves you... and you will wonder if you should tell them. Even Harley's questionairre probes into past issues like this. When you get to that point Jen... the other person will feel the sincerity of whatever it is you share with them.

Actually, this applies to all of us... right now, my sincere emotion about my 1st marriage, is not a sincerely good feeling. I hope that is, when I get to that point, one full of love, renewed hope, and that any baggage is considered worth the possible future dreams. If your message is one of love, I think you'll be just fine. If your message is one of anything else... then who knows?

When that time comes, I want you to know that we'll all be pulling for you. I am. I think that you're kind of in a holding pattern... holding out hope... and setting contingencies for otherwise. Once your course is set, you'll go and while maybe looking back, you'll never turn back.

pepperband,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "Your moral standards present a threat to me. I much prefer a world view replete with moral relativism, and cynicism. I am not willing to apply a value or make a judgment based on moral standards."
<hr /></blockquote>Actually, I did apply a value or make a judgment based on moral standards, just not one you happen to agree with. One of the perks of being a BS is feeling morally superior to a WS. oooh wheee, and don't you get all bothered by a WS or FWS who won't kiss your self-righteous beeehind. Just a hint here..it's called redemption sweetie. I did my time. I gave at the office, honey. That means I don't have to grovel for you or anyone else who thinks I'm supposed to suffer for the rest of my life or throw myself on the ground everytime a BS comes walking by. Nor will I allow myself or others like me to be compared to a rapist or an abuser so that you or others can feel justified doing whatever it is you need to do to have your revenge. Sucks doesn't it? A lowly, horrible, cheating, two-timer who has forgiven herself. Get over it.

jen,

lynx wrote:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> When you get to that point Jen... the other person will feel the sincerity of whatever it is you share with them.
<hr /></blockquote>Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I waited for about three years before I started dating again, because I didn't want to take the chance of ending up with yet another person who was going to hang this over my head. I wanted to make sure I was strong enough not to care if they couldn't accept what I told them, and that I was strong enough to walk away if they decided to use this information against me. That was a mistake I made in my second marriage. I let him talk down to me and degrade me. I've learned since then to stand up to people who think they are better than me.

When I decided to tell my current boyfriend about circumstances in my marriage, I made the distinct decision that I was NOT going to approach this with the attitude of "I hope he accepts me". IMO, that is a position of weakness. Do not accept what some here would have you believe. You are inferior to noone. You can state the facts without making a hobby out of self-flaggellation. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just on a power trip.

Student:

The way you people latch onto a remorseful WS is well, like maggots on a rotting corpse. Their pain feeds your need for revenge, especially if that pound of flesh wasn't something you got from YOUR WS."

First of all ....the "you people" comment gives you away Student. You are scared. Your bravado is phoney. You are (at least for the moment) an angry, frightened little girl stomping her feet and screaming about "you people". The big, bad "you people". Who exactly is "you people" anyway? Are you having an adult conversation? Or, are you ranting / venting frustration.

"like maggots on a rotting corpse" ..... This is a unique way to describe your fellow human beings here on MB. Do you see yourself in either the corpse or the maggot category?

"their pain feeds your need for revenge" .... Does calling other human beings "maggots" or "corpses" feed YOUR need for revenge? This larva / rotting flesh reference must represent some deep personal meaning to you. I wonder what it might be?

"need for revenge" .... Yes, I see some of that going on. I am sorry you feel that need.

"that pound of flesh" .... Yet another interesting remark. I think this is how YOU feel about yourself. I certainly do not see you that way. It must hurt like hell being inside your skin. Your pound of flesh.

Your Victimhood must be heavy. Why don't you put it down and relax for once?

Pep

Pleeeeze, Student, I beg you .... do NOT kiss my "self-righteous beehind" .... it will get Susan all jealous. Suz has my beautiful butt all kissed up, and I couldn't stand any more.

And, Student, pleeeze do NOT grovel. It is too hard to see your beautiful face with your nose in the dirt.

My revenge? LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> What the F are you talkin' 'bout girl? Revenge for what? I really am having a good laugh over this. My desire is to inflict love upon your soul. If you see revenge in my intent .... point it out. I am NOT hurting or in pain. I am in love, I am happy, I am joyful. Aren't you? My revenge ..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"A lowly, horrible, cheating two timer who has forgiven herself." ..... Wonderful! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> This is the best outcome after soul searching. This is a good thing. I am over "it" .... whatever "it" you choose.

If you have forgiven yourself, and found peace, then why are you still so pissed off so much of the time? Where is your thorn? Do you borrow anger off of the less fortunate here on MB? Those who still struggle to find peace and resolution after their 15 rounds in the ring with Adultery?
Pep

[ April 26, 2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> it will get Susan all jealous. Suz has my beautiful butt all kissed up, and I couldn't stand any more.
<hr /></blockquote>ummmmm...Pep???...this doesn't make me sound too good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Suz

Suz ..... my butt doesn't need kissing .... cuz YOU and I are THE queens who love each other ..... doublewide (you) and triplewide (me).

Student thinks I want her to kiss my butt cuz she's a FWS. I deciline the offer. Student was not here for our April Fools Lesbian thread .... and she may get confused by my reference. (Sorry Student .... that "beehind kissing" remark of yours got me off on a tangent. Susan and I played a trick on MB .... and we got the moderator to wag a parental finger at us .... "No-no ...Bad girls")

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[ April 26, 2003, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

In that case Pep...kiss my butt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm turning the other cheek. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

goodnight...Suz <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Student,

I don't believe that you have forgiven yourself. I believe that you look upon yourself with anger, but will not allow yourself to see it. You lash out at very simple thoughts as if they were biting you. You jump at the 'others' as if they were beating you.

You seem to have a "Do unto others, before they have a chance to do it to you." attitude.

Had you truly forgiven yourself, none of these words by the other posters would have bothered you. You would realize that they are angry, and you might even feel empathy if not sympathy for them. But a reaction such as yours smacks of deciet. Not to anyone other than you however. And how could someone so wise and who has been on 'both sides of the fence' ever mislead yourself?

The simple fact that you didn't learn that the pain, when you were betrayed, could be infliceted on another means nothing, until you are the one inflicting the pain. Just because you can say, "It happened to me" doesn't mean that you have a clue what actually happened to you.

And most on this board do not care enough about a WS who attempts to justify. Which by repeatedly saying that you know MORE or BETTER because you have been there... I would say you must know less by having been there. Because you didn't learn from the mistake that your first husband made in your marriage. Or perhaps you did... He got away with infidelity so you thought you should as well.

Just realize that whatever you say here really doesn't mean anything. But the anger in your heart when you post burns you. I don't care if I am the WS or the BS... What I care about is that your anger in your responses only hurts you and your case.

I feel for you... whether you care or not. Someday you might just realize that others can care about you, in spite of your history. And it DOES matter what others think about you when you live in this world.

pepperband,

this is fun, isn't it?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Student:

The way you people latch onto a remorseful WS is well, like maggots on a rotting corpse. Their pain feeds your need for revenge, especially if that pound of flesh wasn't something you got from YOUR WS."

First of all ....the "you people" comment gives you away Student. You are scared. Your bravado is phoney. You are (at least for the moment) an angry, frightened little girl stomping her feet and screaming about "you people". The big, bad "you people". Who exactly is "you people" anyway? Are you having an adult conversation? Or, are you ranting / venting frustration. <hr /></blockquote>If I were scared, I wouldn't keep posting. Just because you have a hard time hearing what I have to say doesn't mean I'm angry. Who are "you people"? well, I suppose I didn't have the inclination to go back through every post and name each person who couldn't help getting their digs in at Jen's expense. There are quite a few here on this thread.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "like maggots on a rotting corpse" ..... This is a unique way to describe your fellow human beings here on MB. Do you see yourself in either the corpse or the maggot category? <hr /></blockquote>No. I see myself as the bird picking the maggots off, thank you very much.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"their pain feeds your need for revenge" .... Does calling other human beings "maggots" or "corpses" feed YOUR need for revenge? This larva / rotting flesh reference must represent some deep personal meaning to you. I wonder what it might be? <hr /></blockquote>Actually, you're right about one thing. The reference does have a deep personal meaning to me. When my cat was near death, her backside erupted in maggots one day--an area about an inch in diameter. I had been giving her daily sponge baths. That is how I found them. I picked each and every one out with tweezers. It seems her skin had started become necrotic, poor thing.

I think about how only BS's here are allowed to have any complaints about their marriage or to have any pain. The WS's only exist here to provide the BS's with a target....a carcass to feed on. Sorry you find the analogy distasteful. I only come to the rescue of remorseful WS's, in case you failed to notice.

"need for revenge" .... Yes, I see some of that going on. I am sorry you feel that need.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"that pound of flesh" .... Yet another interesting remark. I think this is how YOU feel about yourself. I certainly do not see you that way. It must hurt like hell being inside your skin. Your pound of flesh. <hr /></blockquote>"pound of flesh"--it is just a phrase to describe what BS's are often given license to carve off after an affair is confessed/discovered and what WS's are expected to offer in return for "forgiveness". If a BS becomes angry/abusive, then it is considered "consequences" and they are not expected to be held responsible for their behavior. Nope. They are hurting and in pain and just about anything they do short of killing their WS is A-OK and overlooked. Only WS's are expected to take responsibility for their behavior. Even after a divorce, a BS can say "our marriage ended because they had an affair", further relinquishing any responsibility whatsoever in the failure of the marriage. It is hypocritical.

My "victimhood" is not any heavier than the pedestal you carry around to place on top of any FWS's who cross your path.

formerly confused,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Just because you can say, "It happened to me" doesn't mean that you have a clue what actually happened to you.
<hr /></blockquote>oh great. now people are telling me what I'm supposed to think/feel about what happened to me. It just never ends. What, if I don't consider infidelity to be worse than being raped or being abused then I'm not in touch with my feelings? sorry to disappoint you. Just because some people may not have any similar life changing events to compare with infidelity, doesn't make mine any less relevant. In fact, I consider the comparison to be insulting to anyone who ever has been raped or seriously abused. Maybe that is what bothers me about it so much. People who have no friggin' clue about rape or abuse telling me how infidelity is soooo awful. Even worse when it is done for dramatic effect.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He got away with infidelity so you thought you should as well.
<hr /></blockquote>If I believed that, I wouldn't have confessed.
That said, if I had it to do over again, I would not have confessed and do not recommend confession to anyone who wants to remain married, especially a woman who has no kids. In my case, I should have just gotten a divorce instead of confessing and trying to salvage my marriage. At the time, I didn't have the courage to get a divorce. I didn't want to live with the stigma of being divorced a second time and so I coped in a bad way.

My second H told me before my affair that he didn't want to be married to me anymore. That is after I told him I was afraid of him. The last thing on my mind was whether he'd be hurt. His words and actions showed he didn't give a sh*t about me. He was just pissed that some other dog cr*pped on his lawn, that's all.

This is why I will never remarry. If I were faced with the same sort of situation that I faced with my second H, I know I would have an affair rather than seek a divorce. I would not confess, and if I were confronted, I would lie. Yep, I'd rather do all those things than be divorced again..so I'm better off just not going there. So, as you can see, I'm not misleading myself in the slightest.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I feel for you... whether you care or not. Someday you might just realize that others can care about you, in spite of your history. <hr /></blockquote>I don't really need your pity. I do have a boyfriend who cares about me in spite of my history....man, you say that like I'm supposed to be surprised or something.

What I would like to see is for people to stop kicking FWS's when they are down. I'd like to see FWS's be able to get recognition for the pain they are suffering as a result of their marriage falling apart without someone calling it justification or telling them they have it coming (I'm not holding my breath). It is very, very likely those problems were there before the affair happened and they have just as much right to their FEELINGS about their marriage as anyone else does.

By focusing solely on the pain of the BS--going on and on and on and on and on and on about what a horrible thing they did, blah, blah, the message you send is that a FWS is not worth a sh*t...which is often how they felt before their affair in the first place...like you care <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> By doing so, some of you folks make it alot more likely that a FWS will be abused, perhaps severely, by a BS. After having come here off and on for quite awhile, I can only assume that is what some people here want, gauging by some of the responses to Jen's thread here.

[ April 27, 2003, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: TheStudent ]

Wow, you folks sure have had some interesting "banter" today, haven't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TheStudent: I am going to try to limit my remarks to you. For one, if you disagree with MB principles, then why do you come here? Two, I think Formerlyconfused has hit the nail on the head: "I don't believe that you have forgiven yourself...You lash out at very simple thoughts as if they were biting you. You jump at the 'others' as if they were beating you."

You seem to have built up walls around yourself, walls of pride, intellectualism, a refusal to get married again, all of the words you throw out here to seemingly defend and protect yourself....I am sad to see someone who seems to be hurting so much but who staunchly refuses to acknowledge it so she can heal and move on. Have you been for IC?

I genuinely appreciate your concern that I may be the flavour of the month or scapegoat of the month, or whatever for some BS to potentially exact a pound of flesh from. But you know what? Rarely does that happen.

Okay now everyone, take a deep breath, and go back and focus on yourselves, your marriages, and your own lives, and let the wild tensions of this thread go for now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen

Jen,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But you know what? Rarely does that happen. <hr /></blockquote>I'm sorry for hijacking your thread. I'm glad my "services" aren't needed. Maybe some things have changed around here. I kinda doubt it though. You did say:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />For those of you that think it's time to attack a FWS and try to make her see how much pain she has caused, I have been living and breathing that pain, and am more than well aware of it. <hr /></blockquote>Obviously, it still happens enough for you to say this though. I rest my case. I read through a few more posts after this comment, and people still didn't let up. A few examples...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Well, my suggestion is to learn to accept that you have made a mistake that is tops on the gossip list, is one that is grave and serious, and can break trust irrepairably. <hr /></blockquote>Well duh. And the sky is blue, and the sun is yellow. Any other brilliant observations?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If he blames you, why should he keep quiet about it, you messed up and he's hurt, what do you think he's going to say?? <hr /></blockquote>More of the "whatever a BS does is ok" stuff.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"I am Jen, a recovering cheater" <hr /></blockquote>sorry. I don't think a three week affair qualifies as an addiction.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Basically, your reputation is based upon what you are like and what you have done. I think that if the shoe fits... Then perhaps the reputation is deserved...
<hr /></blockquote>Isn't this encouraging? I think this came from the same guy who told me people care (?) and someone will love me in spite of my "history". Another one of those backhanded compliments.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I would hate being on the other side... I would hate for my H to say some of the things I say! <hr /></blockquote>Thanks for sharing!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I want to tell you personally that although I abhore what you did... <hr /></blockquote>I loved this one. This happens all the time. Every real compliment is usually prefaced by a comment like this one. It is the same thing as saying "even though you are butt ugly, I'm sure you have some nice qualities somewhere". Sheesh.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Cut him some slack for a while... he deserves to rail against the pain that he feels. <hr /></blockquote>BS takes a holiday from responsibility: Take 2.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It might be hard, but hey, I guarantee it isn't as hard as what he has to deal with. <hr /></blockquote>Like he would know.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You do show me that sometimes lapses in judgement can be just that...
<hr /></blockquote>I think this one was actually supposed to be a compliment. Same guy who had to remind you how abhorent your behavior was.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What I WILL concede, in his defense, is that the betrayal involved his best friend. <hr /></blockquote>In case you forgot it was his best friend, as if you could forget. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am sad to see someone who seems to be hurting so much but who staunchly refuses to acknowledge it so she can heal and move on. Have you been for IC? <hr /></blockquote>It's you who is going to be needing more IC if you stay here and be subjected to this stuff. I've got a thick skin, mostly from hearing the same old record played over and over again. That's why I feel the need to jump in sometimes.

There were a handful of people though, who were genuinely kind and refrained from throwing in any digs. Sometimes it is worthwhile to dig through the cr*p to find the pearls.

and to answer the question...why do I come here? It is more interesting than watching the SEM index Kikuchi patterns at 4:00 in the morning. That's what I'm doing right now. What are Kikuchi patterns? It is the pattern given off by electrons that diffract off of a crystal lattice, in this case, they are bouncing off of Ti-6Al-4V crystal lattices. A computer program captures the image, which then gives you a map of the material's grain orientation. How's that for hiding behind my intellectualism? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ April 27, 2003, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: TheStudent ]

"I'm sorry you find the analogy distasteful."

..... NOT distasteful ..... I find the analogy UNTRUE. It's a phoney.

"the pedestal you carry around to place on top of any FWS's who cross your path."

Please, point out to me ANY SINGLE post I have ever made (since 2000) where I have placed a pedestal that I carry on any FWS's who have crossed my path.

..... This is also UNTRUE. It's a phoney.

"Only WS's are expected to take responsibility for their behavior."

This is UNTRUE. It's a phoney.

I am responsible for some pretty disgusting behavior. Read my responses to Queen of a Broken Heart on GQII. "URGENT. help! H told OW it was over with her, Any traps I need to look out for?"

You can see my self-righteous beehind and my shiney moral pedestal on that thread.... NOT.

Do you think you are the only woman on MB who has been faced with her former reprehensible choices? I am concerned for people who are about to step into the snake pit. People can recover from these moral quagmires, and those of us who are lucky enough to have survived should not be labled self-righteous if we try to warn others about the great harm they are about to inflict on themselves and others.

You, as a woman are angry for a different reason. I think it has something to do with the fact that screaming out at MB "YOU PEOPLE" gives you the phoney sense of intellectual superiority.

Pep

pepperband,

I really have no idea where you get this intellectual superiority thing.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Please, point out to me ANY SINGLE post I have ever made (since 2000) where I have placed a pedestal that I carry on any FWS's who have crossed my path.
<hr /></blockquote>ok, here ya go...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "Your moral standards present a threat to me. I much prefer a world view replete with moral relativism, and cynicism. I am not willing to apply a value or make a judgment based on moral standards."

Having a damaged world view does not make one an intellectual superior. Get over it.
<hr /></blockquote>You've implied that your moral standards are superior to mine. In the context of our discussion, I believe it had something to do with the fact that I don't consider infidelity to be as bad or worse than rape or abuse. My damaged world view? Oh, you mean the one that comes from personal, first hand experience? Sorry if reality intrudes on ya'lls little pity party here. Maybe you all need to take a deep breath and count your blessings, folks, that infidelity is the worst thing YOU have ever been through and your life has been so "blessed" that you have nothing else to compare it with. That is a whole lot different than actually believing it is the worst thing that could ever happen to someone, sweetie.

oh, and see the list of "you people" up above? All "you people" who can't miss an opportunity to kick a FWS when they are down? You've met your match with me folks. I won't be shamed into submission like you prefer your WS's here.

Jen,
I really hope you are paying attention. I got here late in the game to know all that is going on with your marriage right now. However, I have to believe that some of the same people who posted what I quoted above are the same ones who think you should "cut your H some slack" when he uses you for sex and says and does whatever else he wants to do. I hope you know that you don't deserve to be disrespected.

Only you can decide what to do with your life--in the meantime, I'll be the one putting your H's butt in the same fire BS's put unremorseful WS's in here. Responsibility cuts both ways folks. Just because someone is a BS doesn't give them a free JERK card.

Student .... I have been through worse. What makes you think I haven't?

Pep

"Yes I think it is selfish to expect another person to honor their vows when they are unrealistic and harmful."

Yes, Student, you are correct. The "harmful" honoring of one's vows is a terrible blight to society! If you are talking about a woman honoring her vows while her H is raining fists upon her face, say so. And, we will agree and try to get battered women out of harm's way in unison. But, harmful means dangerous (to me, anyway). I also believe it is HARMFUL to break one's vows in absence of a real and present danger. Not just marriage vows. I've taken many vows. As a juror. As a medical professional. As an adoptive mother. Last week I took a vow (along with H and out teenage daughter) as we swore we had completed her passport forms without fraud.

When we break our vows, we harm ourselves. We subtract from our integrity. We commit fraud against our honor.

Rape and abuse ..... are terrible. My son and daughter were abused by their birth mother in utero. They were abused in the worst way by the very person who was supposed to love and protect them.This does not give them license to violate any vows they take in their life!!!

"Intellectual superiority thing"

Well ..... forgive me if I have misread your meaning when you said: ".... chucked that talent to be an elementary school teacher. Noble, I guess, but it seemed like a waste."

A waste? Why is teaching children a waste of talent? I may be wrong (it won't be the first time) but this looks as if you distain women taking on traditional roles when they have a choice. She made a choice, while she had other options .... isn't that what REAL feminism is all about?

Pep

TheStudent:

You found the thread I had jumped in on with JordanP. Yes, that one did get ugly and I found myself defending myself again. She didn't have the whole story and indeed started pointing out the obvious to me, as did some on this thread.

Don't worry, I don't think that I should cut my H "some more slack" and give him heaps more of time to decide. I have more self-respect than that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Just because someone is a BS doesn't give them a free JERK card. <hr /></blockquote>INDEED INDEED INDEED. Sounds a lot like the last thing I said to him, something similar to: "Just because you've been hurt and you've lost someone you love doesn't give you a license to treat people however you want."

Maybe you are right, maybe my addiction to posting at MB may be part of what keeps my guilt alive and at times unbearable.

I do have one question for you and Pepper though. What is this remark all about? <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Well ..... forgive me if I have misread your meaning when you said: ".... chucked that talent to be an elementary school teacher. Noble, I guess, but it seemed like a waste." <hr /></blockquote>Being a teacher is not a noble waste of intelligence. It is a worthwhile and much-needed role in society. If there were no teachers, no one could go on to post-secondary studies, and avail themselves to "watching the SEM index Kikuchi patterns" and understanding them. But let's not get off on an anti-teacher thread. The point of this site is to build marriages, and I think this thread either needs to refocus itself or die.

Jen

This thread caught my eye as I have similar issues (what to tell people about my divorce... a messy and needlessly hurtful experience, aside from the actual irreconcileable issues). But I registered to comment on the argument between student and a few other posters. When I read the the comment about the woman who choose to be a schoolteacher instead of pursuing some other intellectual goals I didn't hear student being dismissive of teaching. It also seemed that those who chastised her were self-serving....sort of an I gotcha now thing, and weren't really defending teaching. The sense I got from reading the thread in toto, was student was suggesting the woman sold herself out, abandoned a socially less acceptable route (the independent intellectually successful woman) for a more traditional female role, teaching.

If this woman freely chose from all options, and had found a passion for teaching, and chose to follow that dream, that is great and I do not think student would object at all. This seems to be almost a bash session against this poster for having ideas unpopular to a segment of the people who post here. Perhaps they feel threatened, and see a need to demean her thereby refuting her message by killing the messenger..... a fairly common occurence when passionate topics are debated on-line I have noticed (or in real life, although people there are more motivated to be less confrontational in making their points).

Student-((interesting name for one who knows all...??))you seem to have all the answers? heres a new question- if you were so abused and smart....why didn't you leave your H instead of inflicting an A on a union that offered so little hope? doesn't seem that you gained anything.....am I missing something??

PEACE OUT

I also think the response about vows (by pepperband) was too narrow (perhaps to make her argument prevail). Arbitrarily defining "harmful" as only immediate physical danger implies all other vows must be followed mindlessly without recourse. Student also said unrealistic. Vows, are like any other rule, made to be broken. Otherwise one womans vows becomes another womans chains. We all need to live healthy lives, and if that includes leaveing a marriage that is not a healthy place, then one (obviously) needs to feel empowered to decide the vow is unrealistic.

The comments about terrible blight on society were entertaining, but the hyperbole did not make any points. Clearly vows (and all committments and promises) are important elements of a successful society, I didn't see student saying otherwise. But to make all promises, vows, committments inviolate would create a despotic world as well (defined by those who make the rules, and have the power to enforce them...not what democracy is all about), unclear where that is preferable to a world where no one can count on promises.

The answere lies somewhere in the middle, right where student implied...the vow must be realistic, must make sense....and saying one can only leave a marriage when there is a clear and present danger to ones physical safety is nonsense. The fact is, anyone will break a vow if sufficient reason exists to do so. Vows are sort of like locks on doors, they keep the honest people honest....but if your neighbor percieves a need to do so, they will break your door down in a heartbeat. I am certain all those other vows mentioned would be violated if pepperband saw sufficient reason to do so. But I agree it is desireable to have vows/promises/committments as a framework for society, and interpersonal interactions, as long as everyones well-being is important, and understood the vows can and will be released/violated if needed. The argument would be over what circumstances justify such, and no doubt there will never be 100% consensus on any defined set of cirumstances....nor should there be, we are all unique individuals, empowered to make our life be what we want it to be, one size does not fit all. Unfortuneately this pretty much gaurantees marital discord, and divorce, as people have different expectations, and usually do not get all of this out in the open and resolved before marrying (not to mention the multitude of people with various personal issues/shortcomings that can make marriage more of an ordeal, than a joy.....the suggested definition of vows means those in such marriages are doomed to a lifetime of trying to cope for their bad marital choice, that makes no sense at all).

This seemed to be tied into some issues student had with how unfaithful spouses are treated on this site. I have read here for awhile, and find the concepts very interesting, and useful in relationships, have learned a lot. But I do see a strong bias toward moral righteousness simply because one was betrayed. That doesn't make any real sense to me, since obviously many betrayed spouses are pretty screwed up people too. I go along with those who suggest infidelity is simply a learning experience for all parties, and it is what you learn (and do about it) that is important. Those who choose to feel superior because they were betrayed obviously havn't learned very much. And those who wallow in self-pity show they are not very desireable partners as well. As for those who roam about like some sort of moral police pointing out (often in a deceptively caring/concerned way) the moral shortcomings of an unfaithful individual, while guiding them back to the route they have ordained is needed for their salvation....well who appointed them...nuff said.

Fact is their are lots of pretty lousy marital partners who are betrayed, just like their are lots of unfaithful spouses who are lousy marital partners...has nothing to do with who is in what role. As to the for the original author of this thread (Jen). I would say you just tell people the truth, the unvarnished facts, if you want them to know....if your personal life is of no business to them...then tell them you prefer not to discuss the reasons. If you fear gossip etc. I do think taking action is indicated, and would tell people, you don't wish to discuss it, but they can expect to hear various lies.

[ April 27, 2003, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> This seems to be almost a bash session against this poster for having ideas unpopular to a segment of the people who post here. <hr /></blockquote>I agree subdb. I think the productiveness of this thread may have been lost a couple pages ago.

Perhaps we should get this thread back on topic (What do you tell people who ask why you divorced?) or leave, and start your own thread, please.

JB

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But I do see a strong bias toward moral righteousness simply because one was betrayed. That doesn't make any real sense to me, since obviously many betrayed spouses are pretty screwed up people too. I go along with those who suggest infidelity is simply a learning experience for all parties, and it is what you learn (and do about it) that is important. Those who choose to feel superior because they were betrayed obviously havn't learned very much. And those who wallow in self-pity show they are not very desireable partners as well. As for those who roam about like some sort of moral police pointing out (often in a deceptively caring/concerned way) the moral shortcomings of an unfaithful individual, while guiding them back to the route they have ordained is needed for their salvation....well who appointed them...nuff said. <hr /></blockquote>Very well put. I suppose those of us FWS (and WS) who post here are like outlets for some BS.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> As to the for the original author of this thread (Jen). I would say you just tell people the truth, the unvarnished facts, if you want them to know....if your personal life is of no business to them...then tell them you prefer not to discuss the reasons. If you fear gossip etc. I do think taking action is indicated, and would tell people, you don't wish to discuss it, but they can expect to hear various lies. <hr /></blockquote>Thank-you for a simple, clear-cut, non-biased answer. The last part about mentioning that they may hear various lies may in fact become something I need to say.

Thanks for chiming in on this thread sufdb.

Jen

Dear Jen Brown,

I sincerely apologize to you for my idiotic participation in hi-jacking your thread. It was wrong of me to help drag the subject so far off topic. I have no excuse, because I know better.

In no way do I want to imply that your dilemma is trivial or unimportant. This is, in fact, a very interesting, and important subject.

Please accept my apologies for my rude mis-behavior.

Sincerely,

Pep

No worries Pepper! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> The "show" was somewhat entertaining to read to be sure. It just got a little heated as it went on, and so I made the remarks about getting back "on topic".

You're a smart gal and it's always informative to read what you post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I have a lot of respect for you.

Jen

sufdb,

While I agree with much of what you said, and yes, I agree wholeheartedly that many of those that are betrayed are not nice people either, and the fact that they were betrayed does not all at once make them holy, righteous, or otherwise. I disagree with several points which you have raised.

I think it ludicrous to try to equate rape and betrayal. These are two completely separate instances with different background, reasons, and thoughts. They are truly apples and oranges.

However, I take point with you about your thought that vows, promises, etc. should not be inviolate. They are the framework by which we live our lives. Saying that only those that can enforce the rules would rule is ridiculous. It is not by those that rule, but by the nature of those en mass that set the standard. We have become a nation of people so preoccupied with ourselves and NEVER judging the behaviors of our neighbors that we have lost site of what we are all about. In the world as you seem to perceive it, there would ONLY be rule by force, because no one would be required to uphold that which they stated. NOT vice versa. For the masses to merely disregard an action that is detrimental to the whole will be that which will cause the mass to crumble.

We see that every day in that we look at a person who has commited a 'grievance' and say tsk tsk. Then we go to our afternoon soccer games or walk into our backyards and start the barbeque. WE allow these sorts of behaviors to be acceptable. There are no ramifications for their occurance. Vows, words, promises... We have allowed them to become meaningless.

If a person works for a company and signs a document that says that he will not divulge secrets to another company or use the company's knowledge to further another's project. That person is obligated BY LAW. If he then goes to work for another company or divulges that information, there are laws that will punish that person. This is thought by our society to be improper, hence we have decided that we as a mass, as a community will not tolerate the bahavior.

However, when a man and a woman vow to each other, their families, their friends, and perhaps their God... that trust is so much more binding than a simple document signed at an employer's desk. It has meaning far beyond that which it superficially represents. However, we as a culture have chosen to disregard a person who steps out of this contract, because we are not willing to clean up the mess. It is easier to tacitly approve of the action by disregarding it rather than to hold the person responsible for their actions. There is no punishment for breaking this contract. It has so little meaning that in many states, it is not even a factor in splitting up the marriage assets. It is meaningless, this thing that has shattered so many lives carries only what little shame the commiting person deems he or she will bear then nothing else matters.

I know that many BS have been active participants in the destruction of their families. I know that in my own case, I assumed too much... I thought that we were on the same wavelength without taking the effort to ensure that I understood. I did not do everything that I could in order to make our relationship grow. I accept that. I know that others have harangued, turned frigid, abused, become addicted, etc. their spouses. They are guilty of those actions within the marriage contract as well and should be fully held accountable.

I do not take this lightly, because even after the failure of my own marriage, I believe that most can be saved given time and attention. While I absolutely believe that it is what you do after the betrayal that makes or breaks a marriage, it is not simply enough to say that we can chalk it up to a learning experience. This break of trust is not just buying a new shirt and saying you have had it for a while. It is not disagreeing about rearing the children. It is a true SEPARATION of the marriage. The other things that occur are learning experiences. But they are for the greater good of the family.

Betrayal in any form is not about the marriage. It is about the person. I am not at all saying that alcoholism, abuse, etc is for the family. Please don't go there. What I am saying is that in any other form, a disagreement is usually about what is thought to be best for the family. Betrayal is never about what is best for the family. It is all about the person engaged in the betrayal, and the complete and utter disregard for the other spouse. It is doing something that is so detrimental to a marriage, and not just doing it, but doing it KNOWING just how detrimental it is, and doing it anyway...

It has nothing to do with being righteous... it has nothing to do with being right... it has EVERYTHING to do with being hurt, but not just hurt, you are purposely hurt by a person whom you trusted, usually beyond all others. This is not simple experience. This is not just something that you can say, "OH WELL, I will do better next time." This is life... This is family...

My children will never again have both their parents tuck them in at night... is that experience to them? They will never again wake up and be able to have breakfast with mom and dad... is that just experience? These may sound trivial, but my boys are the biggest reason why this divorce and the betrayal hurt so much. Because I had essentially vowed to them by being their father that I would give them the best life that was possible. There is a better option available to my children than what they are to lead, but it will be forever out of my reach to provide this for them because of repeated betrayal by my ex. Is this simple experience? They will grow, obviously... they will be loved, I will be sure of that... they will never want for anything, but why not have it all?... Is this something that my boys should experience? Are the nights of passion or the afternoons of sex for my wife's pleasure worth more than the solidity of our boys' lives?

The truth about infidelity is that it goes directly to the heart of trust and family. It is something so very distinctly incongruous with the preservation and growth of family and marriage as to be antithema. That is why it hurts so much. It hurts not for me... but for my inability to shield my boys. It hurts similarly for most I believe, however I could be wrong.

So where does this leave us? With a 50% divorce rate with a high percentage of infidelity. With the NORM becoming abnormal. With the thought that what is best for me is what counts. With the thought that vows, promises, and a person's word is only as good as it fits then it is no longer valid, and without warning can be changed with no recourse by the person to whom it was made.

It leads us to the United States 2003. Where no one is responsible for themselves, but everyone else is responsible to me. Where freedom of speech is felt to mean that I can say whatever I want without consequences, and if anyone presses consequences, then they are not following the freedom of speech edict.

This does in no way mean that we browbeat the betrayer... We do not abhore the person, but the action... the behavior. Yes, it is what occured, but is there redemption in the person? Is that person trustworthy in other aspects of life? How can we bring our wayward spouses back to our family while we in turn learn ourselves and how we can make our family a place where he/she wants to be?

That is the trick that we often forget. We rely on the vow and forget that if the place is rewarding, then a wayward person will be more likely to desire to rejoin. Unfortunatley, some spouses have already found a 'joy' in someone else, and refuse to see the rewards of their changing family.

It all comes down to the fact, I believe, that a vow is only for the person who makes it. For that person only will hold the vow as active and something worthwhile. Should that person's character be such that the vow means nothing to him/her, then the vow was meaningless the moment it left their lips. It would be better to have said nothing than to help another believe that you were sincere.

Hi Jen - hopefully this is still the best place to answer your question. If people ask why, I say that my wife was seeing other guys, but I don't go into gory details or insult her personally. Usually I follow up by saying that I contributed to problems in our marriage, but people will assume that anyway. I can say that our custody arrangements have been smooth, but the financials are contentious.

Most people don't ask wny, especially as time passes. Maybe they have heard my wife's version, but they assume that another side exists. Some of her girlfriends told me as much. I think that I'm judged mainly on how I handle the kids, and I have over a year's track record on that since our separation. Especially with kids involved, nobody wants to take sides.

Some people, family and close friends, deserve an explanation. It's not enough, and it's not honest, to say we just couldn't work things out because that trivializes the commitment of marriage. But there is no need to rub it in.

This thread mentions another idea, of maintaining one's self-respect. I think that both parties must discard (temporarily) their self-respect in order to begin a recovery. My wife finally agreed to counseling at the end of January, but we only went one time. She held out no hope of reconciling, wanted me to apologize for causing all the problems, only wanted to go every 2 weeks, and was still having an overnight guest. I thought it was just a stalling tactic. The counselor thought she wanted some resolution to help her move on. When I offered to split the cost of subsequent sessions, she refused.

After three-to-six months of plan A, I would have pressed on with a joint counseling opportunity regardless. But after a year of plan B, her state of mind just didn't cut it. Neither one of us would yield our self-respect. I needed to hear something from her without all the "yes, buts".

Now I am okay with the divorce, don't need to demonize her, and have recovered most of my self-esteem. I still have resentments that she is dragging out the process for financial advantage, because of our state laws; some of what she does is deception, but otherwise it has nothing to do with infidelity.

Anyway, to conclude. Whatever reasons are given for the divorce - affairs, emotional distance, money problems, alcohol, etc., most people don't want to hear too much of the details, and they will know they only have half of the story. To be overly fixated on the reasons, makes the teller look bad.

- Tom

Jen - OK I have read none of this thread - though when I have the time I will go back and read - because it sounds from the last few that it took quite a twist - but in answer to your question ??

What do you tell people why you divorced???

I usually tell them that well my husband wanted to date while I was married and I had a huge problem with that.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

jen,

I'd posted something unrelated to the topic, but came back and edited to get things back on track.

You know, I struggled for SOOOOO long trying to handle the logistics of what happens afterwards...what to tell people, should I tell people, how to share this information with those I care about, etc.

After much thrashing about, I really had no way to discuss my situation without sounding like I was blaming my ex or alternatively descending into endless self-flagellation. Neither situation could describe the whole truth. So, that is exactly what I tell people. I don't tell people I cheated on him and I don't tell people he abused me. Both of us hurt each other immensely. What point does it serve to say who hurt whom more? Our marriage is over, and that's all.

[ April 28, 2003, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: TheStudent ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />....why didn't you leave your H instead of inflicting an A on a union that offered so little hope? doesn't seem that you gained anything.....am I missing something??
<hr /></blockquote>...and, here ya go... the number one, most frequently asked BS question of all time.

You know, stating the obvious does not require a whole hell of alot of skill. Falls under the "sky is blue, sun is yellow" category.

[ June 22, 2003, 03:46 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]

There is dignity in silence.

[ June 22, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]

???Orchid, why did you bump this one back up???

Jen

Since this was bumped back up i thought I would add my 2 cents...My H had an affair and to MOST people, all they know is we have had some problems etc....But my close friends and co-workers know...I have always been an open talker and it my defenses come down very easily, unfortunately this has caused me to occasionally say "damn, why did I say that??", but for the most part I have opened up to close people, and they have been supportive and incredibly supportive of my need to continue trying...My H only knows of 1 or 2 people knowing and I don't want him to know that a few more know as we have the same work place (not the same co-workers though), and I don;t want him to feel weird or ashamed around them...The fact that he doesn't know a few know and they met up over the past 9months shows they show no judgement to him. I do wish I had the gift of secrecy but like I said I open up easily to people and I feel more peace when I open up...Never would I use it as a way to shame him...

JMO--D