("And now for something completely different" from my other thread...)

Perhaps the more accurate title would be "I'm proud to be a US citizen." But I like the song by Lee Greenwood, so...

I've got something to say. This is the only site I know where I might air some of my opinions (though I will try to keep the most controversial ones to myself).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
War or no war, I am proud to be a citizen of this great, beautiful and God blessed country. Democrats or no democrats, I am proud of my homeland. (JK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

I am proud of the fact that we have freedom of speech, that many use to disagree with the current administration. I hope they revel in it because Iraqis cannot at this time.

Do I think there were better ways to overthrow Saddam Hussein's regime? There are other ways, but how effective would they be? I don't think they'd be effective at all, because the turnover would be slow and create civil unrest, IMO. Kind of like taking out a drug lord. The underlords scramble and kill each other, vying for power. Uh-huh. I could see that if the US sanctioned snipers to take out individual officials.

Is this a unilateral US maneuver, wanting to establish some sort of American power over the rest of the world? Huh? Let me just say that I don't know but I hope not.

I hope our troops are truly there to take Iraq away from Satan...er Saddam and his cohorts, and give it back to the Iraqi people, who will give out freedom to all, including (and especially) women.

If they are there for other reasons besides undermining those who would come to our country and deface it and destroy so many innocent lives that no war could equal the loss, then I will join those protesting the US government's actions.

Until I hear of this being a case of "blood for oil", I will join my Iraqi-American brothers and sisters who cry "Down with Saddam Hussein!"

Sincerely,

Zuzus_Petals

<small>[ March 21, 2003, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]</small>

I agree with you on being proud to be an american

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is this a unilateral US maneuver, wanting to establish some sort of American power over the rest of the world? Huh? Let me just say that I don't know but I hope not.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My comment on this, is where did they come up with this. I don't know of anytime in U.S. history where we have ever tried to do this. Our country is about freedom, so doing this would contradict our culture.

Is there another way to for Iraq to be free from Saddam, I don't know the answer any more than anyone else does. It would be great if there was. War is ugly.

The protestors here in the US, can protest because they live in the US. I read that after the Gulf War, that some of the Iraqi who celebrated Suddam losing, were killed by Iraqi soldiers. Does the Iraqi citizens want help in being liberated, only they know the answer and I'll bet they are not speaking out of fear. I saw on the news as the troops were going by in one town, the Iraqis were chanting America, smiling and dancing.

The early army that surrendered were expected to fight our tanks with handguns. How sad. War is sad.

Just rambling

<small>[ March 21, 2003, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Sue with hope ]</small>

Hi Everyone,

In some respects I am very lucky and unlucky at this moment to live in England. I am seeing Gulf War Part II from a different perspective than Gulf War Part I when I was living in the States.

As far as Iraqi people everyone who is an Iraqi ex-pat are all for the war. They have said how awful Sadam is and what he has done to his own citizens. Most UK citizens are for the war. IT is about 65% for and 35% against. The people against it here are very vocal and they are not nice about it.

A couple days before the war started George warned me that people were probably going to take out their anger on me because I am a USA citizen. Most USA ex-pats have been warned in the International Times that we were going to recieve some ugly treatment in most European countries. Mainly France, and Germany but not discounting England. And it is true. Most here feel that it is USA and George Bush pushing for this war.

I am not going to say what I believe to be the best option. My guess is that people who have lived through the awful dictatorship of Sadam are happy that someone is helping them get him out than that is good enough for me.

I know that since moving overseas for the second time I have become more of a stanch USA citizen than I have ever been in the past. Everytime someone makes a nasty remark about me being from the US and how I should go home it shows me how lucky I am to come from such a great country. No country is perfection on a cracker but I love the USA for what is is and for what it is not. I think most Americans have no idea how lucky we really are to come from such a diversified place and allowed to have the freedom of our diversification.

Hiya Zuzu~

I appreciate the fact that you feel comfortable enough to air your opinions on the MB forum...however, as a non-American, I just want to remind you that the internet is international, so don't be surprised if your feelings/thoughts are NOT received warmly.

This isn't an invitation for EVERY AMERICAN to rush to support you...I've read the latest polls and 65% of the people in your country support the war---so, it's no secret that your opinion will have definite supporters...

As a Canadian--I'd like you to take my opinion into consideration....

I don't see the US as my home, my protector or as something I should be proud of, because I don't live there. As a result, my opinions aren't clouded by a veil of patriotism. With this in mind, you might want to answer a few questions for me....

1. Iraq is being targetted this time, because of it's supposed involvement with Osama Bin Laden...(by the way, is the US still looking for him?) Where is Osama? Where is he in Iraq and would SOMEONE please tell me HOW he's linked to Saddam Hussein?

2. If Iraq requires a regime change (supposedly because Saddam Hussein is a dictator) then, why isn't the US attacking COMMUNIST China which kills 100,000 of it's own people every year and is known for thousands of crimes against humanity? Not only does the US turn a blind eye to China, but they TRADE with China.....so, this is confusing for me....

Did you know that Iraq is a Democratic country? Also, did you know that of ALL Arabic countries, Iraq has the most freedoms for WOMEN? They have the most female enrollment in University AND the most females in the workplace of almost ALL middle eastern countries. Are you aware that Iraq has far more freedoms for women than countries like Saudi Arabia, which incidently were the US allies against Iraq in the Gulf War 11 years ago? Ever wonder how all these changes came about, considering that Saddam Hussein has been in power for 20 years?

As someone mentioned, "no country is perfection on a cracker"...this includes Iraq...After all, the US media would have you believe that genocide is happening in Iraq with regard to the Kurds...BUT, how qualified is the US in these matters? In 100 years, the government has done nothing to halt a backwoods, redneck organization like the Ku Klux Klan...how will the US halt genocide in a nation where they have almost zero understanding of their relgions and culture???

Be careful of quoting your Iraqi Brothers---as a Canadian, I see many Iraqi people, living and working in MY community. Because Canada does NOT require you to lose your culture at the border, these people are very comfortable in telling me how the general Iraqi population feels. My dry cleaner (who has recently moved here from Iraq) tells me that Saddam Hussein causes a lot less problems for them as citizens than the American government does---bombing their country to death....

Yesterday on a local radio program, the host asked a Canadian peacekeeper, who called into the show from Iraq, who the Iraqi people blame for the war---the answer was simple---she said "They blame the US".

Another open ended question---why doesn't the American population hear these things? Let's look back at the politics of two previous world wars for the answer----wartime propaganda. Your media tells you what you want to hear. Plain and simple. There SURE isn't 65% support for the war here---but that's because we hear our own newscasts, not just yours...and YES, there iS a difference.

For the life of me, I can't understand why people who generally want fairness and peace within their own country can support their own government slaughtering innocent people. Where are all the Christians? Would Christ have wanted this?

The Ten Commandments say "Thou Shalt Not Kill"...there is no footnote for war....

Are you seriously defending Saddam Hussein?? I could not have possibly read your post right. Hussein is a direct threat not only to the US but also to the rest of the world. He has no dignity or regard for human life- if he would shoot his own advisors in the face, right in front of God and everyone, and allow the slaughter of women and children in his country to prove his power and intimidate his people, God knows what he would do next. He is an evil monster and the sooner he is dead, the better place this world will be. Of course it won't solve all of the problems, but it would shake the structure of the terrorist activities to a significant degree.
And I believe with all my heart that they are not targeting the Iraqi people. Bush has flat out said he will do everything in his power to offer them food, medicine, and help in any way they need. All he is trying to do is liberate them by getting rid of Hussein. And Hussein could have prevented this! We gave him 12 years! How could anyone possibly side with him? Especially when all of this could have been prevented by him! What do you think he is trying to hide??

Having lived in the Middle East, North Africa and Canada, I have mixed feelings about this War and truthfully can argue it either way.

Ironically, H is Canadian and feels similar to Aeri so we've agreed to discuss not what is right or wrong but rather just try and understand what is happening from a historical, cultural and global perspective.

It's difficult though. Patriotism runs deep and I believe it or not, I have family in the Armed Forces, a son preparing for combat training, and dear friends of Middle Eastern descent overseas and in the Middle East. Yet, the feeling of pride and patriotism I feel when I watch the news coverage is difficult if not impossible to explain.

Perhaps, Moi said it best:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My guess is that people who have lived through the awful dictatorship of Sadam are happy that someone is helping them get him out than that is good enough for me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too, Moi.

Thanks!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aeri:
<strong>1. Iraq is being targetted this time, because of it's supposed involvement with Osama Bin Laden...(by the way, is the US still looking for him?) Where is Osama? Where is he in Iraq and would SOMEONE please tell me HOW he's linked to Saddam Hussein?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess this proves the newscasts differ between the two countries. The US Army 82nd Airborne hit Afghanistan simulatneously to the first hit on Baghdad on Wednesday morning (middle east time). Where is Osama? He may be dead, we don't know, but the Al Qaida (sp?) and Taliban are still very real threats to the US and the rest of the world. Intel had word of Afghan leaders being in the Southwest of Afghanistan so they hit. They have a few POWs (well lots), some of whom have talked.

The fact that thousands of Iragi troops are surrendering is enough to tell me that even their military wants out from under Hussein's rule. And pictures show very malnourished soldiers. If he isn't feeding his military, he certainly isn't feeding his people.

I agree with the others: If Iragi's (whether still in Iraq or who have managed to escape/leave Iraq) are supporting Hussein's "dethroning", I do, too.

Amanda

Aeri:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did you know that Iraq is a Democratic country? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In principal, yes. In reality, no. If it was a true democracy, there would have been more than one person on the ballot.

Also, I don't understand this remark:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Because Canada does NOT require you to lose your culture at the border, these people are very comfortable in telling me how the general Iraqi population feels. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The U.S. does not require anyone to lose their culture at the border. In fact, our Constitution guarantees everyone freedom of speech, religion, etc. Dearborn, MI, just across from Windsor, has the largest community of Iraqi ex-Pat's in the U.S. and outside of the middle east. Most are Chaldean, and while most are sad and upset that it had to come to War, they are fully supportive of U.S. intervention in Iraq.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aeri:
<strong>
As a Canadian--I'd like you to take my opinion into consideration....

I don't see the US as my home, my protector or as something I should be proud of, because I don't live there. As a result, my opinions aren't clouded by a veil of patriotism.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Neither does it make you objective or unveiled. Just differently veiled.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
1. Iraq is being targetted this time, because of it's supposed involvement with Osama Bin Laden...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. No one, not even government officials has ever alleged direct links.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
2. If Iraq requires a regime change (supposedly because Saddam Hussein is a dictator) then, why isn't the US attacking COMMUNIST China which kills 100,000 of it's own people every year and is known for thousands of crimes against humanity? Not only does the US turn a blind eye to China, but they TRADE with China.....so, this is confusing for me....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see that it is confusing. However, the insertion of this argument into the original argument is a non-sequitor. Neither has bearing on the other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Did you know that Iraq is a Democratic country? Also, did you know that of ALL Arabic countries, Iraq has the most freedoms for WOMEN? They have the most female enrollment in University AND the most females in the workplace of almost ALL middle eastern countries.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand the theory of democracy in Iraq. In practice it is non-existant. No one runs against Saddam for fear of death. Ballot votes are marked with the blood of the voter. Not voting for Saddam results in death.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>BUT, how qualified is the US in these matters? In 100 years, the government has done nothing to halt a backwoods, redneck organization like the Ku Klux Klan...how will the US halt genocide in a nation where they have almost zero understanding of their relgions and culture???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pretty d*mned qualified. The KKK is fairly irrelevant. And, as you noted, a backwoods, redneck organization. Even in the US, we allow dissention and disagreement. We allow people their stupidity and racism. As for having no understanding of other religions and culture. You've got to be kidding. The international media likes to paint the US as wildly, religiously ignorant of others. In reality (without a veil, so to speak), that portrayal is patently untrue. I can speak from direct and personal experience to this. I am from a minority religion. My husband is from an even more minority religion and culture (and a ME country).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Be careful of quoting your Iraqi Brothers---as a Canadian, I see many Iraqi people, living and working in MY community.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And exactly WHY did these people leave their countries of birth? My guess? To have a better and more free life. Interesting that they couldn't have that at home. I see many immigrants from Iraq, as well. Even have them in my home for supper. I have no qualms about quoting them when I say they are glad that the current Iraqi regime is being fought. It's likely I will lose contact them once it's all over, because they WANT to go home, to a safer Iraq. They love their country of birth, but they couldn't live there. Look at that word, live. I don't mean go about their activities of daily living. I mean LIVE...as in have a heartbeat.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Because Canada does NOT require you to lose your culture at the border...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Goodness, what gives you the idea that the US requires an immigrant to loose his culture? Surely, you don't get that information first hand. I can assure you that it isn't true. My husband was not required to lose his; none of our friends were required to do so. The US opened its arms for them. They go to Mosque, shop at grocery stores that have the same foods as "back home," they celebrate their religious holidays without any interference from others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>these people are very comfortable in telling me how the general Iraqi population feels...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, they tell you how they feel. Surely, they don't speak for the general Iraqi population. They left Iraq. Even my friends don't presume to speak for the entire Iraqi population when they say they are grateful for US intervention.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Yesterday on a local radio program, the host asked a Canadian peacekeeper, who called into the show from Iraq, who the Iraqi people blame for the war---the answer was simple---she said "They blame the US".</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please, explain to me what this proves. Other than proving that individual's perception/opinion, the statement's main goal is to instigate, nothing more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Another open ended question---why doesn't the American population hear these things? Let's look back at the politics of two previous world wars for the answer----wartime propaganda. Your media tells you what you want to hear. Plain and simple. There SURE isn't 65% support for the war here---but that's because we hear our own newscasts, not just yours...and YES, there iS a difference.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That wasn't an open-ended question. You have your bias showing. That's ok, we all do. Let's not pretend that we don't, though. You have shown your bias in thinking that US citizens are a bunch of backwoods, illiterate and gullible lemmings. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I'm fairly secure in the knowledge that I'm none of those things. The US media is reporting a specific poll of US citizens. The US media is also reporting demonstrations against the war and broadcasting different opinions. Then again, many US citizens have access to other forms of media than US TV/print journalism. We even get Canadian broadcast journalism!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>For the life of me, I can't understand why people who generally want fairness and peace within their own country can support their own government slaughtering innocent people. Where are all the Christians? Would Christ have wanted this?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You DO realise that not all Americans are Christian, right? We are more diverse than that. You ARE aware that the whole world isn't either, right? Surely, you're also aware that the Christian community is as diverse in its opinions as any other group of peoples; that with over 2000 different denominations of Christianity it's not outside the realm of rational thinking to believe there might be differing beliefs in the justification of a war. Where did you ever get the notion that US citizens support our government in "slaughtering innocent people?" That's just inflammatory rhetoric and biased to the nth degree. As I said, you're just differently veiled.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>The Ten Commandments say "Thou Shalt Not Kill"...there is no footnote for war....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not to be picky (ok, I am being picky), but the actual word in that commandment (mitzvah) is "murder." There are footnotes for war and self-defense.

I realise that a great number of people in other countries don't like the US. Personally, I no longer care. IMO, we're d*mned if we do and d*mned if we don't.

<small>[ March 22, 2003, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Crayongirl ]</small>

1. Iraq is being targetted this time, because of it's supposed involvement with Osama Bin Laden.
What about the UN Resolution agreed to by Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi Parliament back in 1991 that said they would give up X, Y, and Z and that UN inspectors would be allowed UNHINDERED access to all Iraq for inspection? They have been denied access over & over ad nauseum. This resolution gave the right to use military force to guarantee inspection and access to ALL suspect sites without negotiation. There is nothing that was required to be done again to exercise this power. The US was simply trying to get everyone on the bandwagon again & to live up to what they all (including Iraq) previously agreed to.

And if you have paid attention to any of the news, it is not just the US. over there doing the dirty work.

Over 40 nations (which generally speak for the people of that nation) have agreed that this “invasion” is required according to previous UN resolutions.

From Resolution 1441 (2002)
Adopted by the Security Council at its 4644th meeting, on
8 November 2002

The Security Council,
Recalling all its previous relevant resolutions, in particular its resolutions 661
(1990) of 6 August 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990, 686 (1991) of 2 March
1991, 687 (1991) of 3 April 1991, 688 (1991) of 5 April 1991, 707 (1991) of 15
August 1991, 715 (1991) of 11 October 1991, 986 (1995) of 14 April 1995, and
1284 (1999) of 17 December 1999, and all the relevant statements of its President,

“Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August
1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution 660 (1990) and to restore
international peace and security in the area,“

<small>[ March 22, 2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

I appreciate the fact that you feel comfortable enough to air your opinions on the MB forum...however, as a non-American, I just want to remind you that the internet is international, so don't be surprised if your feelings/thoughts are NOT received warmly.

This is fine. You don't have to agree. Please don't be surprised if I disagree with you and voice that.

Also, part of the reason I posted about this is because even though people have freedom of speech, doesn't give them the right to block traffic, impede others from doing their job, or, in essence, break the law.

Also, I was upset to learn that the US hockey players were booed in Canada when the USA National Anthem was played. Why get political over a hockey game? Why not peacefully tolerate the ungodly sound of this nation that is a thorn in your side, respecting the PEOPLE who are there.

This isn't an invitation for EVERY AMERICAN to rush to support you...I've read the latest polls and 65% of the people in your country support the war---so, it's no secret that your opinion will have definite supporters...

Certainly it will. There was not much to refute in my first post. I said "War or no war, I am proud to be an American." You know why? I have freedom. I have internet that is not filtered by the gov't. I can choose to home school my children any way I feel.

I can choose to wear my hair up or down. I can live between Vietnamese (I've been told that Vietnam is ONE WORD now! Don't they know they have to ask my permission to change it? (nevermind that it's probably ALWAYS been that way)) and Dominican Republic and black neighbors, who, trust me, live their lifestyle unbroken. The VN neighbors even grow rice in their back yard...which ain't much. Every Saturday night is a DR block party. I'm looking forward to Cinco de Mayo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I love culture. I dated a Danish exchange student. I took German classes with German exchange students. I live in a very diverse place...Filipino teachers and friends, a Chinese friend taught me Chinese characters, Japanese visitor taught me to count in Japanese, and I could go on. The people who live and work here do so freely...and the KKK doesn't come knocking on MY door trying to sign me up for picking the "strange fruit."

As a Canadian--I'd like you to take my opinion into consideration....

Certainly. I just disagree with it, and I hope you will read my opinion and others as more information, and not a judgment on your person.

I don't see the US as my home, my protector or as something I should be proud of, because I don't live there. As a result, my opinions aren't clouded by a veil of patriotism. With this in mind, you might want to answer a few questions for me....

No, perhaps not patriotism to the US, but certainly you have gotten some lopsided media. BTW, I took journalism in school (was the friend of a gay young man...the best in the class that he had...all the "rednecks" were teasing him and threatening him) and it's virtually impossible to express yourself without bias. Hm-hmm...check it out.

1. Iraq is being targetted this time, because of it's supposed involvement with Osama Bin Laden...(by the way, is the US still looking for him?) Where is Osama? Where is he in Iraq and would SOMEONE please tell me HOW he's linked to Saddam Hussein?

Well, to this I say that we have all probably contributed to terrorism on some level. I do think they have said that OBL is linked somehow to SH. We have people here arrested because they have run legitimate businesses with illegitimate, terrorist-supporting affairs going on behind it. I believe we have one of OBL's brothers who lives here in my town.

SH donates moneys to other countries. It makes sense to me that he MAY be supporting OBL. I'm not the one with the intel though, so I couldn't prove it. I do CHOOSE to believe it, however, for now.

2. If Iraq requires a regime change (supposedly because Saddam Hussein is a dictator) then, why isn't the US attacking COMMUNIST China which kills 100,000 of it's own people every year and is known for thousands of crimes against humanity? Not only does the US turn a blind eye to China, but they TRADE with China.....so, this is confusing for me....

Well, as I answered the first one, I'm not so sure that it's just about the regime change. Although, I do think that a lot of sense was made when our President addressed the nation and said "It is a fight for the security of our nation and the peace of the world, and we will accept no outcome but victory." http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/decade/sect5.html

Whether you believe what is written at this link or not, it doesn't matter. It is what our Pres. believes and it's why he's acting out.

Also, if you are so skeptical of this, why do you believe anyone at all? How can you believe anyone? My gma always said, "Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see." I try to do that, but there are times we just don't know. Am I veiled? Yes, not by patriotism but ignorance and I have no knowledge of how to rectify that.

Did you know that Iraq is a Democratic country? Also, did you know that of ALL Arabic countries, Iraq has the most freedoms for WOMEN?
Yes, the freedom to be raped and starved. Do you know the kinds of things Saddam Hussein's son has done to women? His look alike had to rape his own sister, and said that Hussein's son's hobby was rape (might have been another close to him who said this). The youngest he's raped was 12, and included some French students. Also, in Iraq, they killed their Olympians who did not perform well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

As someone mentioned, "no country is perfection on a cracker"...this includes Iraq...After all, the US media would have you believe that genocide is happening in Iraq with regard to the Kurds...BUT, how qualified is the US in these matters? In 100 years, the government has done nothing to halt a backwoods, redneck organization like the Ku Klux Klan...how will the US halt genocide in a nation where they have almost zero understanding of their relgions and culture???

Nothing to halt a backwoods organization like the KKK?! What newspaper are you reading? Um...KKK has freedom of speech, but I don't recall the last time they hung someone. I do remember that they have burned crosses in some places, including my own town. I believe they have caught and prosecuted those people.

Also, why do you call them a "backwoods" organization? Because they won't come out of the woods!

Be careful of quoting your Iraqi Brothers---as a Canadian, I see many Iraqi people, living and working in MY community.

So do I. You are not alone in this and sadly mistaken if you believe it.

Because Canada does NOT require you to lose your culture at the border, these people are very comfortable in telling me how the general Iraqi population feels.

I had a friend in elementary school who was very comfortable informing me of her conversion to Islam. Her mother was a Southern Baptist and her father a Muslim. She brought "Malcolm X" to school and you know what happened? Nothing! Did you happen to see the Arab woman on the news last night telling what happened to her niece in Iraq? The niece wrote something against the gov't and when the teacher saw and reported it, they put the teenager in jail. They have tortured her since she's been there, putting electrodes on her sensitive body parts and shocking her, torturing her. My dry cleaner (who has recently moved here from Iraq) tells me that Saddam Hussein causes a lot less problems for them as citizens than the American government does---bombing their country to death....

Do you know what the US is bombing? Gov't compounds. Of course, we will lose civilians and soldiers. That part saddens me and I pray that no more are lost. This is the sole reason I cannot support the war 100% But then I think about many more years of infamous rule by the Husseins, and I know that more would die than in this war, from starvation, martial law and atrocities. I also think of why these people are starving. SH has built these enormous palaces with their food money. And there's more to that. Perhaps this woman you spoke to is blinded by her patriotism as well?

Yesterday on a local radio program, the host asked a Canadian peacekeeper, who called into the show from Iraq, who the Iraqi people blame for the war---the answer was simple---she said "They blame the US".

Yes, the US isn't very popular right now. One of our reporters in Iraq conducted an interview with a family there and she said she blames the US AND Iraqi gov't.

I think another thing that angers the Arab peoples is our relationship with Israel. I'm not sure how to rectify this myself because I agree that we should have a tight relationship with Israel, as God's chosen people according to the Bible. I agree that the Arabs are a valuable society, holding on to information during the Dark Ages of Europe and the rest of the world. Amazing, and a blessing.

Another open ended question---why doesn't the American population hear these things? Let's look back at the politics of two previous world wars for the answer----wartime propaganda. Your media tells you what you want to hear. Plain and simple. There SURE isn't 65% support for the war here---but that's because we hear our own newscasts, not just yours...and YES, there iS a difference.

Oh, you be Al-Jezeera is a US broadcast? You mean millions upon millions of Americans don't get sattelite? I'm sure there are limitations to it, but I also have freedom to look at any site on the internet including foreign ones I can't read. Also, our news broadcasted that when Al-Jezeera gets their site up, they will advertise the address.

And BTW, do you think the Iraqi's get any news besides Al-Jezeera?

For the life of me, I can't understand why people who generally want fairness and peace within their own country can support their own government slaughtering innocent people. Where are all the Christians? Would Christ have wanted this?

The Ten Commandments say "Thou Shalt Not Kill"...there is no footnote for war....

I don't support any nation slaughtering anyone, as I included above. Of course, I see SH slaughtering more people and raping and abusing them more than the US troops are.

Christ wants us to stand up for the defenseless, called the "fatherless and the widow" in the Bible. I'm sure that includes the oppressed and starving. King David killed people, justly and unjustly, and he was considered "A man after God's own heart" not because of his murdering, but because of his attitude. The Bible does allow killing is self-defense. I do believe that's what this is, even if I don't like the killing at all.

BTW, we Americans aren't here twiddling our thumbs living life as usual. I don't watch sports, but I do occasionally watch other shows and divert my kids from the t.v. This weighs heavily on many of us, and we have been glued to the t.v. for days watching the coverage of the war.

Please understand that this isn't a judgment on you, but just a disagreement. I have no intention of telling you you are anything, except maybe ignorant. That's only because I am ignorant also, and it's impossible to eradicate it completely.

Petals

<small>[ March 22, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]</small>

By Aeri

There SURE isn't 65% support for the war here---but that's because we hear our own newscasts, not just yours...and YES, there iS a difference.

Exactly, how do you know this? Did you poll the US citizens? I didn't believe them either when they told me that Clinton had such a high rating. They didn't ask me what my thoughts were?

Certainly the ACTUAL number is not accurately represented here. The fact is that we just DON'T KNOW what everyone thinks or believes. We will never know it to a certainty. Even if we were to go out and poll everyone in the US, or the world.

Petals

<small>[ March 22, 2003, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]</small>

MoiNouvelle,

I’m glad to hear that things are ok in the UK. My 14-year-old son in flying there with his father, new stepmother and stepsister today. They will be there for spring break. I’ve lived in Africa and Europe. Have experienced civil wars and civil unrest. I hope they are going to be ok.

Of course I gave him the talk about what to do if he see a riot, protest, etc etc.

(ok the rest of this is long.. but Aeri asked for answers for... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Aeri,

I’ll make an attempt to answer some my your questions. Do keep in mind that I am an American citizen, one how has lived in Central American, Africa and Europe for much of my life. You are right, the Internet is international. It’s great that we can all express our thoughts and feelings here. That people from all sides of an issue can discuss it.

One thing to keep in mind when doing this that people will stop listening as soon as the speaker starts to insult and/or talk down to them. There are many outside of the USA who see our citizens as stupid, unworldly, etc. etc. That is a mistake.

Anyone you takes the word and slanted view of any one news source (USA, Canadian, Arab, etc etc as gospel) is naive. Do you really think that all USA American’s are evil in intent and the entire rest of the world, even the radical elements who want you and me dead, are truthful and right?

There are those worldwide who love to think of the USA population as ignorant who know nothing of the world. A very large percentage of the USA population is well traveled and still has contacts with family and friends worldwide. This image just serves the purpose of those who want to manipulate truths to keep people worldwide from even hearing the USA’s point of view.. “Oh they are just stupid Americans.”

If I thought that there was any other viable path to take in this situation I’d be behind it. I, like 99.9999% of those WORLD WIDE who are behind this war, hate war. It is the action of last resort. After 12 years of attempting to get Saddam’s regime to dispose of it’s weapons of mass destruction, I believe this is the only thing left. Do you really think that the American public takes this move lightly? That we want this? No.

I have seen what terrorists do. I’ll not get into details but I’ve had friends, very close friends, slaughtered by terrorists. I saw an entire congregation of African Catholics shortly after they were slaughtered on a pilgrimage. Have you ever seen people riddled with bullet holes (men, women and children)? I was out with my dad that day when he was called to help clean it up. He took me with him, as there was no time to take me home. Unfortunately by the time we got there all were dead. We were too late to save anyone. There was one time when we were chased through the streets, being shot at. There were many times when I, with my family, had to stand guard at our family compound while they tied to break in. The intent was to do to us what had happened to many of our friends. This is person thing for me.

You ask if Jesus would want this war? Does Jesus want Saddam and his thugs to slaughter their people? If you knew someone in your city was killing people, you try to stop them form doing it only through peaceful ways? Or does there come a time when someone must go in and stop them? Is that not what Jesus would want?

The Ten Commandments say "Thou Shalt Not Kill"...there is no footnote for war....

The correct translation of the Tenth Commandment for the original Aramaic is “Thou Shalt Not Murder”. When defending one’s self or others, it is not murder, it is defense. That is allowable under Christian doctrine.

My question is not why are we trying to get Saddam out of power. My question is why does the world community continue to turn a blind eye to all the tyrants in the world who are doing this? Why do so many nations stand by and turn a blind eye to it? It the world community had really come down hard and Saddam, had really put the pressure on, he may have seen the light. Instead he was emboled by this. North Korea is emboled by this. (Have you read what is going on there? You don’t trust USA sources, and then look up Amnesty International and other sources outside the USA.) One thing every despot on this earth can usually be sure of, a large part of the world community will, and always will, turn their head so as to not see what is going on.

Why are those who protest the violence of this war not openly protesting the carnage that went on in Afghanistan by the Taliban, the slaughter of the Kurds, the slaughter in countries such as North Korea, China and on and on? Where were the protesters for the slaughter that has been going on for years in West Africa? Where were the protestors when the French went in there without even asking UN approval in the last few years?

Why are there no protestors in the streets to protest the part some countries played in breaking UN sanctions to supply Iraq with the materials for mass destruction: France, Germany, China and the Ukraine? (I like what we did to the Ukraine for their sale of highly sensitive radar equipment against the UN charters. The US withdrew 55 Billion in foreign aide to them. Why should we help them.)

Why did the woman’s community not protest by marching in the street a few weeks ago when the Iraqi police dowsed a woman in gasoline and burned her? Why do they not protest when Saddam and his torture brigade raped women in front of their children and their families as torture? Why?

Where are those who protest this war, NOW and other women’s organizations not marching in the street to protest modern day slavery? Why are they not trying to free and bring help to the 100,000’s of thousands and women and children annually who are sold in to slavery for sex and free labor worldwide? I guess they just feel that if the slavery is in Africa and other 3rd world countries it’s ok? Do they think that it’s ok to enslave women and children for the purpose of sex? Where sit the support for these people? Where is the outrage at the many who are trading in human flesh? Or is it just that it’s much more fun to hate the USA and people really do not care about human rights?

Few countries have ever gone before the UN to try to get their involvement … The US did for Korea, Desert Storm. Approval from the UN has never been required internationally for war.

Why do people protest the USA now? Because it’s popular to do so in some circles.

To protest human rights worldwide would take too much personal commitment.

Who is slaughtering innocent people in Iraq except for Saddam and the Ba’ath party? Would Christ really want the world to sit by and let such things go on? Did Christ not take action in the temple and throw out the cheats? He used physical violence in this case.

I am an American citizen. I have also spent a good part of my life in countries in Africa, Central American and Europe. I get my news not only from American sources, but also from many international and other-country newspapers. There is no way on God’s green earth I’d arrive at my opinions based solely on what the American, or any countrie’s, news source is spewing out. Everyone, worldwide, has a way of presenting the news in a way that supports their own interests. I am what one would call a patriotic American, but not at the cost of my humanity. IMHO it is the responsibility of everyone to keep up with national and world events so that they are not easily swayed by lies.

So here is my attempt to answer your questions:

In 1990 Iraq was not targeted by the USA. Kuwait asked the UN for help. The USA offered it’s military and we, the American people, mostly footed the bill for that action. Do recall that Canada participated in that action.

The US is still looking for Osama. He has proven to be a hard person to catch.. a needle in a hay stack. But he has to spend most of his time fleeing those who hunt him. From what I’ve heard, that’s one reason they have not been about to attack as many worldwide targets as they may have. In reality, catching Osama is not as important as disrupting their entire leadership. If he were caught, someone else would only step up to fill his place. If we can break his organization and make them inoperable then we stop many attempts at terror. It seems that many governments have already stopped 100’s of attempts since 9/11.

Captured al Qaida (spelling) terrorists have told of and mentioned camps in Iraq where al Qaida (spelling) operatives are trained. They have given locations and physical descriptions of the camps. They match satellite and intelligence information of existing Iraqi training camps. It is also known that many al Qaida terrorists travel to Iraq frequently.

The Iraqi government openly supports many terrorists groups. Iraq pays the families of suicide bombers something like $10,000 each.

The fact that Saddam is dictator is not the reason some feel he and his regime has to go. He has weapons of mass destruction, as do many countries. However he is the only country that has used these weapons on his own people and neighboring countries. He has shown a willingness to use those weapons with little compunction. He is cash hungry, so the chance of him selling those weapons on terrorists groups is very high.

Some also feel that this regime also must go as they were given ceasefire 12 years ago based on some things required by the world community. He and his regime has refused to cooperate. The war we see today there is really not a new war, it’s end of a 12 year ceasefire.

In 1990 Kuwait asked for help in repelling the Iraqi invaders. That was done and there was a cease-fire. Iraq agreed to conditions of that cease-fire. He has never lived up to those conditions. It is Saddam who exposed his country to the austere measures that have been in place for the last 12 years by the world community. He and his regime made the decisions. And while his countrymen suffered, he built more and more palaces and weapons of all kinds with money from the ‘oil for food’ program.

As for China? Now there’s a topic. We are told that the US trades with China because it leaves a door open to them to a very large segment of the world population. The argument is that we can help them more that way than by isolating them. I’m not sure I agree. I’d like to see the USA take a stronger stance against China.

A democracy is characterized by open elections. It is not a democracy if:
……….Only one candidate and one political party ( Ba’ath party) is allowed.
……….people are imprisoned, or worse, for not registering for the one and only Ba’ath party
………. voters are arrested, or worse, if they do not vote for the one and only candidate

Iraq is not a democracy by any stretch of the definition. Anyone who is telling you it is feeding you disinformation.

It depends on where one draws the lines for Arab/Muslim countries. My nephew-in-law is from Tunisia. He is Muslim and considers himself Arab. Tunisia holds themselves up as having the most freedoms for women. I did some research on this a couple of years ago. I’d say I agree. Perhaps if you’d get in touch with the International Muslim Woman’s Organization and Amnesty international you’d get more detail on these things.

The Iraqi women may enjoy some of these freedoms.. the ones who have allowed to live, have not been tortured and/or are not imprisoned. Of course they also are submitted to rape as a normal form of punishment and intimidation of women by the Saddam regimen. I suppose that is also one of the benefits of being an Iraqi woman.

Yep, no country is a perfect cracker. Ah, do you really think that the US, amnesty international and other organization worldwide have no idea of the tens’ of thousands of Kurds who were killed using chemical weapons? If you do not believe the US claims on this, please look up Amnesty international and the very wide spread organizations (even Arab ones) that track these things. Also note that the Saddam regime does not always deny that they did gas the Kurds.

It is untrue that the US gov has done nothing to alt the KKK. I know for a fact of many things that have been done to at least keep them under control. You obviously do not know much about the FBI’s infiltration of the KKK and their disillusion of them as an affective organization. The truth is that the KKK more hot air now than anything else. The other thing is that the KKK is an outlaw organization. It was the government of Iraq, Saddam and the Ba’ath party who gassed the Kurds. How can one compare the activities of an outlaw organization with those of the government?

It is true that like the Spanish, the French, the English (and every other nation that has ever existed), the USA has gone into countries where it does not understand the religious and cultural backgrounds of the nation. Even the French who settled Canada did that to the American Indians. But there are a few differences. In the past most countries have gone into other nations to conquer them. The USA does not see to do that. The USA has helped other countries get back on their feet, at our own expense over and over again. Yes we have made mistakes. That is normal of humans. But we seek to learn from them and do better. The USA is seeking the help of many Iraqi in this effort. We are seeking to understand their needs.

Have you considered that maybe the Iraqi’s in the USA seem to be more pro-USA for a reason other than that they have to loose “culture at the border”? Maybe they support the USA for another reason. Maybe they moved here for another reason. Did anyone hold a gun to their heads and make them come here? Your assumption that they say what they say because they have to is ridiculous.. who is holding a gun to their head? Who is keeping them here? They are free to leave anytime they wish.

They could have moved to a number of other countries. Maybe they like it here. Maybe the ones who are in Canada, and not in the USA, are there for a reason. Maybe because they do prefer Canada to the USA or other countries? You see, you too will get a one-sided view from the Iraqi in Canada…. Obviously your dry cleaner is anti-USA. That’s ok, that’s their experience. But that does not make his/her opinion any more valid than the other 5 million Iraq expatriates worldwide. I wonder what their numbers are country by country. Most of the Iraqi expatriates here in the USA appreciate their life here (or they would leave the USA) but look forward to the day they can return to their own country and be free. I pray that day is coming soon.

Have you ever considered that perhaps the Iraqi ‘brothers’ who come to the USA do so because they like USA? Well, except for the very few who are here as sleepers and terrorists? Have you ever considered that those who do not come here may do so because they do not like the USA.

I know that my Muslim, Tunisian nephew-in-law loves Tunisia, but he wants to raise his children in the USA. He is from a wealthy family. Tunisia is a ‘free’ country by the standards of that part of the world. But he loves both countries.

So is the view of your drycleaner more ‘real’ than that of the many Iraqi expatiates here in the USA? Or is perhaps the answer somewhere between the two?

If you think that the USA requires that people loose their culture when they cross our boarders I’d like to invite you the attend mass at the Byzantine Catholic Church our family attends. It is the same church that comes with his ex-wife’s village and family from Lebanon when they fled the Christian slaughter not too many years ago. My husband is Byzantine Catholic from the Ukraine. He still practices his grandfather’s form of Catholicism. I am of Irish/Italian decent and therefore Roman Catholic. Or perhaps you’d enjoy attending the Mosque my niece and her husband from Tunisia attend? My family has people in it from all sorts of cultures… Irish, English, Spanish, American Indian, Lebanon, Ukraine, Tunisian, French, German … many of them were born out side of the USA. Would you like to come sample our cuisines from our cultures, speak our languages with us, visit our extended families around the world? This will show you how we had to give up our cultures…. I’m sorry to disappoint you but you will find that we are all very ‘American’ and very much hold on the beauty of our inherited cultures. The USA is a melting pot. Sure there are ignorant Americans (USA) as there are ignorant Canadians, French, Germans, English, and ignorant people in all countries. But as in all countries, there are many who are not ignorant. I have seen far less discrimination and xenophobia in the USA than I have ever seen in any other part of this globe.

Now you cannot have it both ways. Many in the world community will say exactly what you have said out the USA accepting other points of view. And then they turn right around and say that our weakness is that we are so opened minded that we even let terrorist run free in our country least we offend them. You cannot have it both ways.

By Canadian peacekeeper, I presume you mean a Canadian who works for the UN. If one carefully selects whom they ask a question of, they can ensure which response they will get. The thousands of Iraqi expatriates and Iraqis still living in Iraq who have been working with the US and UK governments do not agree with the peacekeeper. So who is right? Perhaps there are many sides to the story. I will take the word of thousands before I take the word of one.

Oh we do hear these things. We get news from all over the world from many sources. Again you are assuming that we are airheads lead easily lead around in the dark. All countries, yours included feed their population propaganda. All newscasters present their stories to support their own views. We know there is a difference. Why do you only listen to the left wing propaganda being fed to the world?

I can hardly believe you are now turning against the USA for our involvement in the two world wars that for the most part we never wanted to be involved in. The two wars in which many, many thousands of American lives were lost to free Europe for being overrun. Now are you going to say that the Europeans wanted to be ruled by Hitler? All I can say is that this proves that no good deed goes unpunished.

Many, many of us in the USA read not only our own newspapers but also many of those published worldwide. Do remember that the Internet is international. We are not the stupid, ignorant, warmongers who you are making us out to be.

Here are some good links to news sources world wide… just a start. Happy reading. Then try looking at Amnisty internations’s site

http://www.world-newspapers.com/
http://www.geocities.com/~oberoi/newspapr.html
http://www.inkpot.com/news/
http://www.ipl.org/div/news/

I am so sad to see that you are buying into blanket anti-USA sentiments. That you have not bothered to do the research necessary to arrive at a balanced look at the issues. There are so many sources of information available.

Your dialogue shows only one thing.. that you have a very low opinion of the USA. I’ve lived with this very outlook from people across the globe since I was a young girl.

Since then I’ve often wished that the USA would just turn it’s back on the world, keep our money to ourselves. (Look it’s not just money.. it’s the sweat off our brow turned into and exchangeable resource.) I wish we would stop buying from the international markets, stop importing our jobs out side the USA, and so forth. But then if we say we want to do that, we are criticized for that too. You see it does not matter what the USA does. We are dammed if we do and dammed if be don’t. So the best we can do is what fits our needs. No other country in this world apologizes for looking out for their own interests. But we do not overrun countries just to be bullies.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Zuzus_Petals:
<strong>There SURE isn't 65% support for the war here---but that's because we hear our own newscasts, not just yours...and YES, there iS a difference. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, and there is a difference between NBC and CBS and Fox and UPN and CNN, etc. I flip through and watch lots of different channels and get different (but not conflicting YET) info on each channel. It isn't a border issue, it's a perception issue. Different stations have different perceptions of what is going on and report the facts as they know them differently. I can tell you our newscasts are NOT reporting a lot of things, out of national security interests. Just like when your TV shows Aero Force One taking off live you can rest assured our President isn't in it.

Amanda

<small>[ March 22, 2003, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: ace61502 ]</small>

Zulu said Also, part of the reason I posted about this is because even though people have freedom of speech, doesn't give them the right to block traffic, impede others from doing their job, or, in essence, break the law.

Yep Zulu this is a point with me too. In the USA we have freedom of speech, not freedom of ‘civil disobedience’. It’s been an issue in our home. My nephew (husband’s side) was expelled from school for organizing an anti-war walkout. His mother is so very angry at the school system. She has stated that she is proud of him for doing it and will not require that he return the school. He’s in the 10th grade… but instead is letting him go the GED route. Now there’s a way to teach a child. We are very upset at the way she is handling this. At least our kids are a little smarter. When they heard LittleZ said cool!!! But then she said he was pretty stupid in reality. My son said.. “Well he’s messing up his life.”

My nephew thinks he’s being punished because he voiced his opinion. No he was expelled because he broke a law, disrupted school, etc. I am writing him a dissertation on the topic. If he wants freedom of speech he’s gonna get it. I love freedom of speech, in many countries in this world I’d not have a head anymore. I deplore civil disobedience.

Also, I was upset to learn that the US hockey players were booed in Canada when the USA National Anthem was played. Why get political over a hockey game? Why not peacefully tolerate the ungodly sound of this nation that is a thorn in your side, respecting the PEOPLE who are there.

This antic by the Canadian crowds only served to show that they are small minded. Not impressed with their actions at all. Now what is it someone was saying about Canadian’s being superior????

This isn't an invitation for EVERY AMERICAN to rush to support you...I've read the latest polls and 65% of the people in your country support the war---so, it's no secret that your opinion will have definite supporters...

I can choose to wear my hair up or down. I can live between Vietnamese (I've been told that Vietnam is ONE WORD now! Don't they know they have to ask my permission to change it? (nevermind that it's probably ALWAYS been that way)) and Dominican Republic and black neighbors, who, trust me, live their lifestyle unbroken. The VN neighbors even grow rice in their back yard...which ain't much. Every Saturday night is a DR block party. I'm looking forward to Cinco de Mayo

I’m sorry Zulu, I do not believe you. All those neighbors of yours had to check their cultures at the entry points upon arriving at on USA soil. Haven’ t you heard? And perhaps you should call the anti-ethnic ministry to drain that rice patty.

Did someone change the boarder entry signs to read “Welcome to the People’s Socialist Republic of the United States of America”? Gee see what happens when I’m not looking?

Certainly. I just disagree with it, and I hope you will read my opinion and others as more information, and not a judgment on your person.

That’s right Aeri, I’ve read many of your posts here. You are much more open minded than your post on this thread. We all learn from such debates.

Also, in Iraq, they killed their Olympians who did not perform well.

I think another thing that angers the Arab peoples is our relationship with Israel. I'm not sure how to rectify this myself because I agree that we should have a tight relationship with Israel, as God's chosen people according to the Bible. I agree that the Arabs are a valuable society, holding on to information during the Dark Ages of Europe and the rest of the world. Amazing, and a blessing.

Zulu, you are right that the Arab and Muslim world sites this as their reason for not liking the USA. Well if they care so much about the Palestinians then why will they not help the Palestinians? Why did they turn them out and even slaughter so many of them? Where is this love for their Palestinian brothers? Or is it just a nice excuse for their behavior? Personally I think that what the Zionists did in the middle is his horrible. But no less so than then other peoples in that part of the world have done to each other since the beginning of time. The Palestinian’ reaction to the Zionists have also been less than wonderful. It has been a bloody place, like the rest of the world, since the beginning. And it’s been brother fighting brother. The Jewish and Muslim populations complain about how oppressed they are. Yet both the most discriminated against religion in the Middle East is the Catholic… discriminated against by both the Jewish and Muslim communities. There is no secret as to why the Catholic community there is small most were killed or fled. The Jewish, Catholic (and later ‘Christian’) and Muslim faiths are all for the same source. Yet the people’s of those religions have fought each other like the Hatfield’s and McCoy’s for centuries. The way I see it they are all wrong and it’s time for all of them to come to the bargaining table and show the rest of the world that our religion (again all religions based on THE BOOK) is not a joke.

Hey! Who went and changed that quote by aeri? Darn it, these people just don't want me to use this language correctly! They shift the sand around so that *I* look like an idiot! (And the readers think: Petals, you don't need help to look like an idiot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

Geesh! I didn't read that as "There's not 65% support for USA here" as in, in Canada. Duh.

Anyway, Aeri, how do you know there's not 65% in Canada? Why do we trust these polls anyway? Hasn't anyone ever heard of the mathematical concept called "probability?" Why do we trust the weather man or woman so implicitly? If they predict 40% chance of rain, and it doesn't rain, that means there was 0 chance of rain and the weather predictor was wrong.

Okay, just trying to lighten up some now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Petals

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aeri:
<strong>As a Canadian--I'd like you to take my opinion into consideration....Did you know that Iraq is a Democratic country? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Couldn't you have claimed to be from France or Germany before making such a statement?

They voted for their leaders in the USSR too. It is hardly a democracy when the options on the ballot are "1)Saddam Hussein or 2)Please kill my family"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Also, did you know that of ALL Arabic countries, Iraq has the most freedoms for WOMEN?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

So what? 60% of Iraqis rely on aid for food. That hardly sounds like a benevolent regime.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>My dry cleaner (who has recently moved here from Iraq) tells me that Saddam Hussein causes a lot less problems for them as citizens than the American government does---bombing their country to death.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Well, what's telling to me here is that he chose to immigrate to Canada. If Iraq is an okay place to live, why move here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Another open ended question---why doesn't the American population hear these things? Let's look back at the politics of two previous world wars for the answer----wartime propaganda. Your media tells you what you want to hear. Plain and simple. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Actually, if you watch CNN, I think they've had very good coverage. They've covered dissenting opinions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>There SURE isn't 65% support for the war here</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

If I remember correctly, Saddam Hussein was offering money to the families of "martyrs" who suicide attack Americans or Israelis.

If I were the President and this guy was offering bounties for American Blood, I'd kick his [censored] too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>For the life of me, I can't understand why people who generally want fairness and peace within their own country can support their own government slaughtering innocent people. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

The only innocent people who are going to be killed are going to be people that Saddam deliberately positions around military targets so that bleeding hearts will bleed some more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>The Ten Commandments say "Thou Shalt Not Kill"...there is no footnote for war....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, and then right after that, God ordered Joshua to go into cities and kill every man woman and child.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zorweb:
<strong>...what the Zionists did in the middle is his horrible...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure I'll kick myself later, but who are the Zionists and how do you distinguish them from the Jews?

I believe they are militants who are seeking a Jewish homeland for the Israelis, free of Arabs...don't know for certain. Maybe this site will help. I found if fast doing a quick search
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15760c.htm

Crayongirl,

I'm sure I'll kick myself later, but who are the Zionists and how do you distinguish them from the Jews?

I cannot believe you read my rant. You deserve a metal. As you can tell by now I love debate and discussion. That is how we all learn. Or at least how I learn. No need to kick yourself.

Here is some info. I love the internet for making so much info available so easily.

Zionism, the national movement for...in its ancient homeland was attained.

Not all Jewish people are Zionists

I have a wonderful book, “Blood Brothers”, written by a Palestinian Catholic priest who was a child when the Zionists moved into Palestine. (Note that I do not call them Jews because there were already Jews living there side by side with the Muslims and Catholics is peace for a long time. I use the terms to distinguish between the groups and their outlooks.) It’s a sad book with a wonder perspective of forgiveness and moving on. Right now I cannot find it so I don’t have his name.