I'm PROUD to be an American (OT) - Marriage Builders® Forums

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("And now for something completely different" from my other thread...)

Perhaps the more accurate title would be "I'm proud to be a US citizen." But I like the song by Lee Greenwood, so...

I've got something to say. This is the only site I know where I might air some of my opinions (though I will try to keep the most controversial ones to myself).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
War or no war, I am proud to be a citizen of this great, beautiful and God blessed country. Democrats or no democrats, I am proud of my homeland. (JK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

I am proud of the fact that we have freedom of speech, that many use to disagree with the current administration. I hope they revel in it because Iraqis cannot at this time.

Do I think there were better ways to overthrow Saddam Hussein's regime? There are other ways, but how effective would they be? I don't think they'd be effective at all, because the turnover would be slow and create civil unrest, IMO. Kind of like taking out a drug lord. The underlords scramble and kill each other, vying for power. Uh-huh. I could see that if the US sanctioned snipers to take out individual officials.

Is this a unilateral US maneuver, wanting to establish some sort of American power over the rest of the world? Huh? Let me just say that I don't know but I hope not.

I hope our troops are truly there to take Iraq away from Satan...er Saddam and his cohorts, and give it back to the Iraqi people, who will give out freedom to all, including (and especially) women.

If they are there for other reasons besides undermining those who would come to our country and deface it and destroy so many innocent lives that no war could equal the loss, then I will join those protesting the US government's actions.

Until I hear of this being a case of "blood for oil", I will join my Iraqi-American brothers and sisters who cry "Down with Saddam Hussein!"

Sincerely,

Zuzus_Petals

[ March 21, 2003, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]

I agree with you on being proud to be an american

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Is this a unilateral US maneuver, wanting to establish some sort of American power over the rest of the world? Huh? Let me just say that I don't know but I hope not.
<hr /></blockquote>My comment on this, is where did they come up with this. I don't know of anytime in U.S. history where we have ever tried to do this. Our country is about freedom, so doing this would contradict our culture.

Is there another way to for Iraq to be free from Saddam, I don't know the answer any more than anyone else does. It would be great if there was. War is ugly.

The protestors here in the US, can protest because they live in the US. I read that after the Gulf War, that some of the Iraqi who celebrated Suddam losing, were killed by Iraqi soldiers. Does the Iraqi citizens want help in being liberated, only they know the answer and I'll bet they are not speaking out of fear. I saw on the news as the troops were going by in one town, the Iraqis were chanting America, smiling and dancing.

The early army that surrendered were expected to fight our tanks with handguns. How sad. War is sad.

Just rambling

[ March 21, 2003, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Sue with hope ]

Hi Everyone,

In some respects I am very lucky and unlucky at this moment to live in England. I am seeing Gulf War Part II from a different perspective than Gulf War Part I when I was living in the States.

As far as Iraqi people everyone who is an Iraqi ex-pat are all for the war. They have said how awful Sadam is and what he has done to his own citizens. Most UK citizens are for the war. IT is about 65% for and 35% against. The people against it here are very vocal and they are not nice about it.

A couple days before the war started George warned me that people were probably going to take out their anger on me because I am a USA citizen. Most USA ex-pats have been warned in the International Times that we were going to recieve some ugly treatment in most European countries. Mainly France, and Germany but not discounting England. And it is true. Most here feel that it is USA and George Bush pushing for this war.

I am not going to say what I believe to be the best option. My guess is that people who have lived through the awful dictatorship of Sadam are happy that someone is helping them get him out than that is good enough for me.

I know that since moving overseas for the second time I have become more of a stanch USA citizen than I have ever been in the past. Everytime someone makes a nasty remark about me being from the US and how I should go home it shows me how lucky I am to come from such a great country. No country is perfection on a cracker but I love the USA for what is is and for what it is not. I think most Americans have no idea how lucky we really are to come from such a diversified place and allowed to have the freedom of our diversification.

Hiya Zuzu~

I appreciate the fact that you feel comfortable enough to air your opinions on the MB forum...however, as a non-American, I just want to remind you that the internet is international, so don't be surprised if your feelings/thoughts are NOT received warmly.

This isn't an invitation for EVERY AMERICAN to rush to support you...I've read the latest polls and 65% of the people in your country support the war---so, it's no secret that your opinion will have definite supporters...

As a Canadian--I'd like you to take my opinion into consideration....

I don't see the US as my home, my protector or as something I should be proud of, because I don't live there. As a result, my opinions aren't clouded by a veil of patriotism. With this in mind, you might want to answer a few questions for me....

1. Iraq is being targetted this time, because of it's supposed involvement with Osama Bin Laden...(by the way, is the US still looking for him?) Where is Osama? Where is he in Iraq and would SOMEONE please tell me HOW he's linked to Saddam Hussein?

2. If Iraq requires a regime change (supposedly because Saddam Hussein is a dictator) then, why isn't the US attacking COMMUNIST China which kills 100,000 of it's own people every year and is known for thousands of crimes against humanity? Not only does the US turn a blind eye to China, but they TRADE with China.....so, this is confusing for me....

Did you know that Iraq is a Democratic country? Also, did you know that of ALL Arabic countries, Iraq has the most freedoms for WOMEN? They have the most female enrollment in University AND the most females in the workplace of almost ALL middle eastern countries. Are you aware that Iraq has far more freedoms for women than countries like Saudi Arabia, which incidently were the US allies against Iraq in the Gulf War 11 years ago? Ever wonder how all these changes came about, considering that Saddam Hussein has been in power for 20 years?

As someone mentioned, "no country is perfection on a cracker"...this includes Iraq...After all, the US media would have you believe that genocide is happening in Iraq with regard to the Kurds...BUT, how qualified is the US in these matters? In 100 years, the government has done nothing to halt a backwoods, redneck organization like the Ku Klux Klan...how will the US halt genocide in a nation where they have almost zero understanding of their relgions and culture???

Be careful of quoting your Iraqi Brothers---as a Canadian, I see many Iraqi people, living and working in MY community. Because Canada does NOT require you to lose your culture at the border, these people are very comfortable in telling me how the general Iraqi population feels. My dry cleaner (who has recently moved here from Iraq) tells me that Saddam Hussein causes a lot less problems for them as citizens than the American government does---bombing their country to death....

Yesterday on a local radio program, the host asked a Canadian peacekeeper, who called into the show from Iraq, who the Iraqi people blame for the war---the answer was simple---she said "They blame the US".

Another open ended question---why doesn't the American population hear these things? Let's look back at the politics of two previous world wars for the answer----wartime propaganda. Your media tells you what you want to hear. Plain and simple. There SURE isn't 65% support for the war here---but that's because we hear our own newscasts, not just yours...and YES, there iS a difference.

For the life of me, I can't understand why people who generally want fairness and peace within their own country can support their own government slaughtering innocent people. Where are all the Christians? Would Christ have wanted this?

The Ten Commandments say "Thou Shalt Not Kill"...there is no footnote for war....

Are you seriously defending Saddam Hussein?? I could not have possibly read your post right. Hussein is a direct threat not only to the US but also to the rest of the world. He has no dignity or regard for human life- if he would shoot his own advisors in the face, right in front of God and everyone, and allow the slaughter of women and children in his country to prove his power and intimidate his people, God knows what he would do next. He is an evil monster and the sooner he is dead, the better place this world will be. Of course it won't solve all of the problems, but it would shake the structure of the terrorist activities to a significant degree.
And I believe with all my heart that they are not targeting the Iraqi people. Bush has flat out said he will do everything in his power to offer them food, medicine, and help in any way they need. All he is trying to do is liberate them by getting rid of Hussein. And Hussein could have prevented this! We gave him 12 years! How could anyone possibly side with him? Especially when all of this could have been prevented by him! What do you think he is trying to hide??

Having lived in the Middle East, North Africa and Canada, I have mixed feelings about this War and truthfully can argue it either way.

Ironically, H is Canadian and feels similar to Aeri so we've agreed to discuss not what is right or wrong but rather just try and understand what is happening from a historical, cultural and global perspective.

It's difficult though. Patriotism runs deep and I believe it or not, I have family in the Armed Forces, a son preparing for combat training, and dear friends of Middle Eastern descent overseas and in the Middle East. Yet, the feeling of pride and patriotism I feel when I watch the news coverage is difficult if not impossible to explain.

Perhaps, Moi said it best:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> My guess is that people who have lived through the awful dictatorship of Sadam are happy that someone is helping them get him out than that is good enough for me.
<hr /></blockquote>Me too, Moi.

Thanks!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aeri:
1. Iraq is being targetted this time, because of it's supposed involvement with Osama Bin Laden...(by the way, is the US still looking for him?) Where is Osama? Where is he in Iraq and would SOMEONE please tell me HOW he's linked to Saddam Hussein?<hr /></blockquote>I guess this proves the newscasts differ between the two countries. The US Army 82nd Airborne hit Afghanistan simulatneously to the first hit on Baghdad on Wednesday morning (middle east time). Where is Osama? He may be dead, we don't know, but the Al Qaida (sp?) and Taliban are still very real threats to the US and the rest of the world. Intel had word of Afghan leaders being in the Southwest of Afghanistan so they hit. They have a few POWs (well lots), some of whom have talked.

The fact that thousands of Iragi troops are surrendering is enough to tell me that even their military wants out from under Hussein's rule. And pictures show very malnourished soldiers. If he isn't feeding his military, he certainly isn't feeding his people.

I agree with the others: If Iragi's (whether still in Iraq or who have managed to escape/leave Iraq) are supporting Hussein's "dethroning", I do, too.

Amanda

Aeri:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Did you know that Iraq is a Democratic country? <hr /></blockquote>In principal, yes. In reality, no. If it was a true democracy, there would have been more than one person on the ballot.

Also, I don't understand this remark:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Because Canada does NOT require you to lose your culture at the border, these people are very comfortable in telling me how the general Iraqi population feels. <hr /></blockquote>The U.S. does not require anyone to lose their culture at the border. In fact, our Constitution guarantees everyone freedom of speech, religion, etc. Dearborn, MI, just across from Windsor, has the largest community of Iraqi ex-Pat's in the U.S. and outside of the middle east. Most are Chaldean, and while most are sad and upset that it had to come to War, they are fully supportive of U.S. intervention in Iraq.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aeri:

As a Canadian--I'd like you to take my opinion into consideration....

I don't see the US as my home, my protector or as something I should be proud of, because I don't live there. As a result, my opinions aren't clouded by a veil of patriotism.<hr /></blockquote>Neither does it make you objective or unveiled. Just differently veiled.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
1. Iraq is being targetted this time, because of it's supposed involvement with Osama Bin Laden...<hr /></blockquote>No. No one, not even government officials has ever alleged direct links.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
2. If Iraq requires a regime change (supposedly because Saddam Hussein is a dictator) then, why isn't the US attacking COMMUNIST China which kills 100,000 of it's own people every year and is known for thousands of crimes against humanity? Not only does the US turn a blind eye to China, but they TRADE with China.....so, this is confusing for me....<hr /></blockquote>I can see that it is confusing. However, the insertion of this argument into the original argument is a non-sequitor. Neither has bearing on the other.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Did you know that Iraq is a Democratic country? Also, did you know that of ALL Arabic countries, Iraq has the most freedoms for WOMEN? They have the most female enrollment in University AND the most females in the workplace of almost ALL middle eastern countries.<hr /></blockquote>I understand the theory of democracy in Iraq. In practice it is non-existant. No one runs against Saddam for fear of death. Ballot votes are marked with the blood of the voter. Not voting for Saddam results in death.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />BUT, how qualified is the US in these matters? In 100 years, the government has done nothing to halt a backwoods, redneck organization like the Ku Klux Klan...how will the US halt genocide in a nation where they have almost zero understanding of their relgions and culture???<hr /></blockquote>Pretty d*mned qualified. The KKK is fairly irrelevant. And, as you noted, a backwoods, redneck organization. Even in the US, we allow dissention and disagreement. We allow people their stupidity and racism. As for having no understanding of other religions and culture. You've got to be kidding. The international media likes to paint the US as wildly, religiously ignorant of others. In reality (without a veil, so to speak), that portrayal is patently untrue. I can speak from direct and personal experience to this. I am from a minority religion. My husband is from an even more minority religion and culture (and a ME country).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Be careful of quoting your Iraqi Brothers---as a Canadian, I see many Iraqi people, living and working in MY community.<hr /></blockquote>And exactly WHY did these people leave their countries of birth? My guess? To have a better and more free life. Interesting that they couldn't have that at home. I see many immigrants from Iraq, as well. Even have them in my home for supper. I have no qualms about quoting them when I say they are glad that the current Iraqi regime is being fought. It's likely I will lose contact them once it's all over, because they WANT to go home, to a safer Iraq. They love their country of birth, but they couldn't live there. Look at that word, live. I don't mean go about their activities of daily living. I mean LIVE...as in have a heartbeat.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Because Canada does NOT require you to lose your culture at the border...<hr /></blockquote>Goodness, what gives you the idea that the US requires an immigrant to loose his culture? Surely, you don't get that information first hand. I can assure you that it isn't true. My husband was not required to lose his; none of our friends were required to do so. The US opened its arms for them. They go to Mosque, shop at grocery stores that have the same foods as "back home," they celebrate their religious holidays without any interference from others.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />these people are very comfortable in telling me how the general Iraqi population feels...<hr /></blockquote>No, they tell you how they feel. Surely, they don't speak for the general Iraqi population. They left Iraq. Even my friends don't presume to speak for the entire Iraqi population when they say they are grateful for US intervention.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Yesterday on a local radio program, the host asked a Canadian peacekeeper, who called into the show from Iraq, who the Iraqi people blame for the war---the answer was simple---she said "They blame the US".<hr /></blockquote>Please, explain to me what this proves. Other than proving that individual's perception/opinion, the statement's main goal is to instigate, nothing more.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Another open ended question---why doesn't the American population hear these things? Let's look back at the politics of two previous world wars for the answer----wartime propaganda. Your media tells you what you want to hear. Plain and simple. There SURE isn't 65% support for the war here---but that's because we hear our own newscasts, not just yours...and YES, there iS a difference.<hr /></blockquote>That wasn't an open-ended question. You have your bias showing. That's ok, we all do. Let's not pretend that we don't, though. You have shown your bias in thinking that US citizens are a bunch of backwoods, illiterate and gullible lemmings. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I'm fairly secure in the knowledge that I'm none of those things. The US media is reporting a specific poll of US citizens. The US media is also reporting demonstrations against the war and broadcasting different opinions. Then again, many US citizens have access to other forms of media than US TV/print journalism. We even get Canadian broadcast journalism!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />For the life of me, I can't understand why people who generally want fairness and peace within their own country can support their own government slaughtering innocent people. Where are all the Christians? Would Christ have wanted this?<hr /></blockquote>You DO realise that not all Americans are Christian, right? We are more diverse than that. You ARE aware that the whole world isn't either, right? Surely, you're also aware that the Christian community is as diverse in its opinions as any other group of peoples; that with over 2000 different denominations of Christianity it's not outside the realm of rational thinking to believe there might be differing beliefs in the justification of a war. Where did you ever get the notion that US citizens support our government in "slaughtering innocent people?" That's just inflammatory rhetoric and biased to the nth degree. As I said, you're just differently veiled.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The Ten Commandments say "Thou Shalt Not Kill"...there is no footnote for war....<hr /></blockquote>Not to be picky (ok, I am being picky), but the actual word in that commandment (mitzvah) is "murder." There are footnotes for war and self-defense.

I realise that a great number of people in other countries don't like the US. Personally, I no longer care. IMO, we're d*mned if we do and d*mned if we don't.

[ March 22, 2003, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Crayongirl ]

1. Iraq is being targetted this time, because of it's supposed involvement with Osama Bin Laden.
What about the UN Resolution agreed to by Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi Parliament back in 1991 that said they would give up X, Y, and Z and that UN inspectors would be allowed UNHINDERED access to all Iraq for inspection? They have been denied access over & over ad nauseum. This resolution gave the right to use military force to guarantee inspection and access to ALL suspect sites without negotiation. There is nothing that was required to be done again to exercise this power. The US was simply trying to get everyone on the bandwagon again & to live up to what they all (including Iraq) previously agreed to.

And if you have paid attention to any of the news, it is not just the US. over there doing the dirty work.

Over 40 nations (which generally speak for the people of that nation) have agreed that this “invasion” is required according to previous UN resolutions.

From Resolution 1441 (2002)
Adopted by the Security Council at its 4644th meeting, on
8 November 2002

The Security Council,
Recalling all its previous relevant resolutions, in particular its resolutions 661
(1990) of 6 August 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990, 686 (1991) of 2 March
1991, 687 (1991) of 3 April 1991, 688 (1991) of 5 April 1991, 707 (1991) of 15
August 1991, 715 (1991) of 11 October 1991, 986 (1995) of 14 April 1995, and
1284 (1999) of 17 December 1999, and all the relevant statements of its President,

“Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August
1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution 660 (1990) and to restore
international peace and security in the area,“

[ March 22, 2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]

I appreciate the fact that you feel comfortable enough to air your opinions on the MB forum...however, as a non-American, I just want to remind you that the internet is international, so don't be surprised if your feelings/thoughts are NOT received warmly.

This is fine. You don't have to agree. Please don't be surprised if I disagree with you and voice that.

Also, part of the reason I posted about this is because even though people have freedom of speech, doesn't give them the right to block traffic, impede others from doing their job, or, in essence, break the law.

Also, I was upset to learn that the US hockey players were booed in Canada when the USA National Anthem was played. Why get political over a hockey game? Why not peacefully tolerate the ungodly sound of this nation that is a thorn in your side, respecting the PEOPLE who are there.

This isn't an invitation for EVERY AMERICAN to rush to support you...I've read the latest polls and 65% of the people in your country support the war---so, it's no secret that your opinion will have definite supporters...

Certainly it will. There was not much to refute in my first post. I said "War or no war, I am proud to be an American." You know why? I have freedom. I have internet that is not filtered by the gov't. I can choose to home school my children any way I feel.

I can choose to wear my hair up or down. I can live between Vietnamese (I've been told that Vietnam is ONE WORD now! Don't they know they have to ask my permission to change it? (nevermind that it's probably ALWAYS been that way)) and Dominican Republic and black neighbors, who, trust me, live their lifestyle unbroken. The VN neighbors even grow rice in their back yard...which ain't much. Every Saturday night is a DR block party. I'm looking forward to Cinco de Mayo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I love culture. I dated a Danish exchange student. I took German classes with German exchange students. I live in a very diverse place...Filipino teachers and friends, a Chinese friend taught me Chinese characters, Japanese visitor taught me to count in Japanese, and I could go on. The people who live and work here do so freely...and the KKK doesn't come knocking on MY door trying to sign me up for picking the "strange fruit."

As a Canadian--I'd like you to take my opinion into consideration....

Certainly. I just disagree with it, and I hope you will read my opinion and others as more information, and not a judgment on your person.

I don't see the US as my home, my protector or as something I should be proud of, because I don't live there. As a result, my opinions aren't clouded by a veil of patriotism. With this in mind, you might want to answer a few questions for me....

No, perhaps not patriotism to the US, but certainly you have gotten some lopsided media. BTW, I took journalism in school (was the friend of a gay young man...the best in the class that he had...all the "rednecks" were teasing him and threatening him) and it's virtually impossible to express yourself without bias. Hm-hmm...check it out.

1. Iraq is being targetted this time, because of it's supposed involvement with Osama Bin Laden...(by the way, is the US still looking for him?) Where is Osama? Where is he in Iraq and would SOMEONE please tell me HOW he's linked to Saddam Hussein?

Well, to this I say that we have all probably contributed to terrorism on some level. I do think they have said that OBL is linked somehow to SH. We have people here arrested because they have run legitimate businesses with illegitimate, terrorist-supporting affairs going on behind it. I believe we have one of OBL's brothers who lives here in my town.

SH donates moneys to other countries. It makes sense to me that he MAY be supporting OBL. I'm not the one with the intel though, so I couldn't prove it. I do CHOOSE to believe it, however, for now.

2. If Iraq requires a regime change (supposedly because Saddam Hussein is a dictator) then, why isn't the US attacking COMMUNIST China which kills 100,000 of it's own people every year and is known for thousands of crimes against humanity? Not only does the US turn a blind eye to China, but they TRADE with China.....so, this is confusing for me....

Well, as I answered the first one, I'm not so sure that it's just about the regime change. Although, I do think that a lot of sense was made when our President addressed the nation and said "It is a fight for the security of our nation and the peace of the world, and we will accept no outcome but victory." http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/decade/sect5.html

Whether you believe what is written at this link or not, it doesn't matter. It is what our Pres. believes and it's why he's acting out.

Also, if you are so skeptical of this, why do you believe anyone at all? How can you believe anyone? My gma always said, "Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see." I try to do that, but there are times we just don't know. Am I veiled? Yes, not by patriotism but ignorance and I have no knowledge of how to rectify that.

Did you know that Iraq is a Democratic country? Also, did you know that of ALL Arabic countries, Iraq has the most freedoms for WOMEN?
Yes, the freedom to be raped and starved. Do you know the kinds of things Saddam Hussein's son has done to women? His look alike had to rape his own sister, and said that Hussein's son's hobby was rape (might have been another close to him who said this). The youngest he's raped was 12, and included some French students. Also, in Iraq, they killed their Olympians who did not perform well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

As someone mentioned, "no country is perfection on a cracker"...this includes Iraq...After all, the US media would have you believe that genocide is happening in Iraq with regard to the Kurds...BUT, how qualified is the US in these matters? In 100 years, the government has done nothing to halt a backwoods, redneck organization like the Ku Klux Klan...how will the US halt genocide in a nation where they have almost zero understanding of their relgions and culture???

Nothing to halt a backwoods organization like the KKK?! What newspaper are you reading? Um...KKK has freedom of speech, but I don't recall the last time they hung someone. I do remember that they have burned crosses in some places, including my own town. I believe they have caught and prosecuted those people.

Also, why do you call them a "backwoods" organization? Because they won't come out of the woods!

Be careful of quoting your Iraqi Brothers---as a Canadian, I see many Iraqi people, living and working in MY community.

So do I. You are not alone in this and sadly mistaken if you believe it.

Because Canada does NOT require you to lose your culture at the border, these people are very comfortable in telling me how the general Iraqi population feels.

I had a friend in elementary school who was very comfortable informing me of her conversion to Islam. Her mother was a Southern Baptist and her father a Muslim. She brought "Malcolm X" to school and you know what happened? Nothing! Did you happen to see the Arab woman on the news last night telling what happened to her niece in Iraq? The niece wrote something against the gov't and when the teacher saw and reported it, they put the teenager in jail. They have tortured her since she's been there, putting electrodes on her sensitive body parts and shocking her, torturing her. My dry cleaner (who has recently moved here from Iraq) tells me that Saddam Hussein causes a lot less problems for them as citizens than the American government does---bombing their country to death....

Do you know what the US is bombing? Gov't compounds. Of course, we will lose civilians and soldiers. That part saddens me and I pray that no more are lost. This is the sole reason I cannot support the war 100% But then I think about many more years of infamous rule by the Husseins, and I know that more would die than in this war, from starvation, martial law and atrocities. I also think of why these people are starving. SH has built these enormous palaces with their food money. And there's more to that. Perhaps this woman you spoke to is blinded by her patriotism as well?

Yesterday on a local radio program, the host asked a Canadian peacekeeper, who called into the show from Iraq, who the Iraqi people blame for the war---the answer was simple---she said "They blame the US".

Yes, the US isn't very popular right now. One of our reporters in Iraq conducted an interview with a family there and she said she blames the US AND Iraqi gov't.

I think another thing that angers the Arab peoples is our relationship with Israel. I'm not sure how to rectify this myself because I agree that we should have a tight relationship with Israel, as God's chosen people according to the Bible. I agree that the Arabs are a valuable society, holding on to information during the Dark Ages of Europe and the rest of the world. Amazing, and a blessing.

Another open ended question---why doesn't the American population hear these things? Let's look back at the politics of two previous world wars for the answer----wartime propaganda. Your media tells you what you want to hear. Plain and simple. There SURE isn't 65% support for the war here---but that's because we hear our own newscasts, not just yours...and YES, there iS a difference.

Oh, you be Al-Jezeera is a US broadcast? You mean millions upon millions of Americans don't get sattelite? I'm sure there are limitations to it, but I also have freedom to look at any site on the internet including foreign ones I can't read. Also, our news broadcasted that when Al-Jezeera gets their site up, they will advertise the address.

And BTW, do you think the Iraqi's get any news besides Al-Jezeera?

For the life of me, I can't understand why people who generally want fairness and peace within their own country can support their own government slaughtering innocent people. Where are all the Christians? Would Christ have wanted this?

The Ten Commandments say "Thou Shalt Not Kill"...there is no footnote for war....

I don't support any nation slaughtering anyone, as I included above. Of course, I see SH slaughtering more people and raping and abusing them more than the US troops are.

Christ wants us to stand up for the defenseless, called the "fatherless and the widow" in the Bible. I'm sure that includes the oppressed and starving. King David killed people, justly and unjustly, and he was considered "A man after God's own heart" not because of his murdering, but because of his attitude. The Bible does allow killing is self-defense. I do believe that's what this is, even if I don't like the killing at all.

BTW, we Americans aren't here twiddling our thumbs living life as usual. I don't watch sports, but I do occasionally watch other shows and divert my kids from the t.v. This weighs heavily on many of us, and we have been glued to the t.v. for days watching the coverage of the war.

Please understand that this isn't a judgment on you, but just a disagreement. I have no intention of telling you you are anything, except maybe ignorant. That's only because I am ignorant also, and it's impossible to eradicate it completely.

Petals

[ March 22, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]

By Aeri

There SURE isn't 65% support for the war here---but that's because we hear our own newscasts, not just yours...and YES, there iS a difference.

Exactly, how do you know this? Did you poll the US citizens? I didn't believe them either when they told me that Clinton had such a high rating. They didn't ask me what my thoughts were?

Certainly the ACTUAL number is not accurately represented here. The fact is that we just DON'T KNOW what everyone thinks or believes. We will never know it to a certainty. Even if we were to go out and poll everyone in the US, or the world.

Petals

[ March 22, 2003, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]

MoiNouvelle,

I’m glad to hear that things are ok in the UK. My 14-year-old son in flying there with his father, new stepmother and stepsister today. They will be there for spring break. I’ve lived in Africa and Europe. Have experienced civil wars and civil unrest. I hope they are going to be ok.

Of course I gave him the talk about what to do if he see a riot, protest, etc etc.

(ok the rest of this is long.. but Aeri asked for answers for... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Aeri,

I’ll make an attempt to answer some my your questions. Do keep in mind that I am an American citizen, one how has lived in Central American, Africa and Europe for much of my life. You are right, the Internet is international. It’s great that we can all express our thoughts and feelings here. That people from all sides of an issue can discuss it.

One thing to keep in mind when doing this that people will stop listening as soon as the speaker starts to insult and/or talk down to them. There are many outside of the USA who see our citizens as stupid, unworldly, etc. etc. That is a mistake.

Anyone you takes the word and slanted view of any one news source (USA, Canadian, Arab, etc etc as gospel) is naive. Do you really think that all USA American’s are evil in intent and the entire rest of the world, even the radical elements who want you and me dead, are truthful and right?

There are those worldwide who love to think of the USA population as ignorant who know nothing of the world. A very large percentage of the USA population is well traveled and still has contacts with family and friends worldwide. This image just serves the purpose of those who want to manipulate truths to keep people worldwide from even hearing the USA’s point of view.. “Oh they are just stupid Americans.”

If I thought that there was any other viable path to take in this situation I’d be behind it. I, like 99.9999% of those WORLD WIDE who are behind this war, hate war. It is the action of last resort. After 12 years of attempting to get Saddam’s regime to dispose of it’s weapons of mass destruction, I believe this is the only thing left. Do you really think that the American public takes this move lightly? That we want this? No.

I have seen what terrorists do. I’ll not get into details but I’ve had friends, very close friends, slaughtered by terrorists. I saw an entire congregation of African Catholics shortly after they were slaughtered on a pilgrimage. Have you ever seen people riddled with bullet holes (men, women and children)? I was out with my dad that day when he was called to help clean it up. He took me with him, as there was no time to take me home. Unfortunately by the time we got there all were dead. We were too late to save anyone. There was one time when we were chased through the streets, being shot at. There were many times when I, with my family, had to stand guard at our family compound while they tied to break in. The intent was to do to us what had happened to many of our friends. This is person thing for me.

You ask if Jesus would want this war? Does Jesus want Saddam and his thugs to slaughter their people? If you knew someone in your city was killing people, you try to stop them form doing it only through peaceful ways? Or does there come a time when someone must go in and stop them? Is that not what Jesus would want?

The Ten Commandments say "Thou Shalt Not Kill"...there is no footnote for war....

The correct translation of the Tenth Commandment for the original Aramaic is “Thou Shalt Not Murder”. When defending one’s self or others, it is not murder, it is defense. That is allowable under Christian doctrine.

My question is not why are we trying to get Saddam out of power. My question is why does the world community continue to turn a blind eye to all the tyrants in the world who are doing this? Why do so many nations stand by and turn a blind eye to it? It the world community had really come down hard and Saddam, had really put the pressure on, he may have seen the light. Instead he was emboled by this. North Korea is emboled by this. (Have you read what is going on there? You don’t trust USA sources, and then look up Amnesty International and other sources outside the USA.) One thing every despot on this earth can usually be sure of, a large part of the world community will, and always will, turn their head so as to not see what is going on.

Why are those who protest the violence of this war not openly protesting the carnage that went on in Afghanistan by the Taliban, the slaughter of the Kurds, the slaughter in countries such as North Korea, China and on and on? Where were the protesters for the slaughter that has been going on for years in West Africa? Where were the protestors when the French went in there without even asking UN approval in the last few years?

Why are there no protestors in the streets to protest the part some countries played in breaking UN sanctions to supply Iraq with the materials for mass destruction: France, Germany, China and the Ukraine? (I like what we did to the Ukraine for their sale of highly sensitive radar equipment against the UN charters. The US withdrew 55 Billion in foreign aide to them. Why should we help them.)

Why did the woman’s community not protest by marching in the street a few weeks ago when the Iraqi police dowsed a woman in gasoline and burned her? Why do they not protest when Saddam and his torture brigade raped women in front of their children and their families as torture? Why?

Where are those who protest this war, NOW and other women’s organizations not marching in the street to protest modern day slavery? Why are they not trying to free and bring help to the 100,000’s of thousands and women and children annually who are sold in to slavery for sex and free labor worldwide? I guess they just feel that if the slavery is in Africa and other 3rd world countries it’s ok? Do they think that it’s ok to enslave women and children for the purpose of sex? Where sit the support for these people? Where is the outrage at the many who are trading in human flesh? Or is it just that it’s much more fun to hate the USA and people really do not care about human rights?

Few countries have ever gone before the UN to try to get their involvement … The US did for Korea, Desert Storm. Approval from the UN has never been required internationally for war.

Why do people protest the USA now? Because it’s popular to do so in some circles.

To protest human rights worldwide would take too much personal commitment.

Who is slaughtering innocent people in Iraq except for Saddam and the Ba’ath party? Would Christ really want the world to sit by and let such things go on? Did Christ not take action in the temple and throw out the cheats? He used physical violence in this case.

I am an American citizen. I have also spent a good part of my life in countries in Africa, Central American and Europe. I get my news not only from American sources, but also from many international and other-country newspapers. There is no way on God’s green earth I’d arrive at my opinions based solely on what the American, or any countrie’s, news source is spewing out. Everyone, worldwide, has a way of presenting the news in a way that supports their own interests. I am what one would call a patriotic American, but not at the cost of my humanity. IMHO it is the responsibility of everyone to keep up with national and world events so that they are not easily swayed by lies.

So here is my attempt to answer your questions:

In 1990 Iraq was not targeted by the USA. Kuwait asked the UN for help. The USA offered it’s military and we, the American people, mostly footed the bill for that action. Do recall that Canada participated in that action.

The US is still looking for Osama. He has proven to be a hard person to catch.. a needle in a hay stack. But he has to spend most of his time fleeing those who hunt him. From what I’ve heard, that’s one reason they have not been about to attack as many worldwide targets as they may have. In reality, catching Osama is not as important as disrupting their entire leadership. If he were caught, someone else would only step up to fill his place. If we can break his organization and make them inoperable then we stop many attempts at terror. It seems that many governments have already stopped 100’s of attempts since 9/11.

Captured al Qaida (spelling) terrorists have told of and mentioned camps in Iraq where al Qaida (spelling) operatives are trained. They have given locations and physical descriptions of the camps. They match satellite and intelligence information of existing Iraqi training camps. It is also known that many al Qaida terrorists travel to Iraq frequently.

The Iraqi government openly supports many terrorists groups. Iraq pays the families of suicide bombers something like $10,000 each.

The fact that Saddam is dictator is not the reason some feel he and his regime has to go. He has weapons of mass destruction, as do many countries. However he is the only country that has used these weapons on his own people and neighboring countries. He has shown a willingness to use those weapons with little compunction. He is cash hungry, so the chance of him selling those weapons on terrorists groups is very high.

Some also feel that this regime also must go as they were given ceasefire 12 years ago based on some things required by the world community. He and his regime has refused to cooperate. The war we see today there is really not a new war, it’s end of a 12 year ceasefire.

In 1990 Kuwait asked for help in repelling the Iraqi invaders. That was done and there was a cease-fire. Iraq agreed to conditions of that cease-fire. He has never lived up to those conditions. It is Saddam who exposed his country to the austere measures that have been in place for the last 12 years by the world community. He and his regime made the decisions. And while his countrymen suffered, he built more and more palaces and weapons of all kinds with money from the ‘oil for food’ program.

As for China? Now there’s a topic. We are told that the US trades with China because it leaves a door open to them to a very large segment of the world population. The argument is that we can help them more that way than by isolating them. I’m not sure I agree. I’d like to see the USA take a stronger stance against China.

A democracy is characterized by open elections. It is not a democracy if:
……….Only one candidate and one political party ( Ba’ath party) is allowed.
……….people are imprisoned, or worse, for not registering for the one and only Ba’ath party
………. voters are arrested, or worse, if they do not vote for the one and only candidate

Iraq is not a democracy by any stretch of the definition. Anyone who is telling you it is feeding you disinformation.

It depends on where one draws the lines for Arab/Muslim countries. My nephew-in-law is from Tunisia. He is Muslim and considers himself Arab. Tunisia holds themselves up as having the most freedoms for women. I did some research on this a couple of years ago. I’d say I agree. Perhaps if you’d get in touch with the International Muslim Woman’s Organization and Amnesty international you’d get more detail on these things.

The Iraqi women may enjoy some of these freedoms.. the ones who have allowed to live, have not been tortured and/or are not imprisoned. Of course they also are submitted to rape as a normal form of punishment and intimidation of women by the Saddam regimen. I suppose that is also one of the benefits of being an Iraqi woman.

Yep, no country is a perfect cracker. Ah, do you really think that the US, amnesty international and other organization worldwide have no idea of the tens’ of thousands of Kurds who were killed using chemical weapons? If you do not believe the US claims on this, please look up Amnesty international and the very wide spread organizations (even Arab ones) that track these things. Also note that the Saddam regime does not always deny that they did gas the Kurds.

It is untrue that the US gov has done nothing to alt the KKK. I know for a fact of many things that have been done to at least keep them under control. You obviously do not know much about the FBI’s infiltration of the KKK and their disillusion of them as an affective organization. The truth is that the KKK more hot air now than anything else. The other thing is that the KKK is an outlaw organization. It was the government of Iraq, Saddam and the Ba’ath party who gassed the Kurds. How can one compare the activities of an outlaw organization with those of the government?

It is true that like the Spanish, the French, the English (and every other nation that has ever existed), the USA has gone into countries where it does not understand the religious and cultural backgrounds of the nation. Even the French who settled Canada did that to the American Indians. But there are a few differences. In the past most countries have gone into other nations to conquer them. The USA does not see to do that. The USA has helped other countries get back on their feet, at our own expense over and over again. Yes we have made mistakes. That is normal of humans. But we seek to learn from them and do better. The USA is seeking the help of many Iraqi in this effort. We are seeking to understand their needs.

Have you considered that maybe the Iraqi’s in the USA seem to be more pro-USA for a reason other than that they have to loose “culture at the border”? Maybe they support the USA for another reason. Maybe they moved here for another reason. Did anyone hold a gun to their heads and make them come here? Your assumption that they say what they say because they have to is ridiculous.. who is holding a gun to their head? Who is keeping them here? They are free to leave anytime they wish.

They could have moved to a number of other countries. Maybe they like it here. Maybe the ones who are in Canada, and not in the USA, are there for a reason. Maybe because they do prefer Canada to the USA or other countries? You see, you too will get a one-sided view from the Iraqi in Canada…. Obviously your dry cleaner is anti-USA. That’s ok, that’s their experience. But that does not make his/her opinion any more valid than the other 5 million Iraq expatriates worldwide. I wonder what their numbers are country by country. Most of the Iraqi expatriates here in the USA appreciate their life here (or they would leave the USA) but look forward to the day they can return to their own country and be free. I pray that day is coming soon.

Have you ever considered that perhaps the Iraqi ‘brothers’ who come to the USA do so because they like USA? Well, except for the very few who are here as sleepers and terrorists? Have you ever considered that those who do not come here may do so because they do not like the USA.

I know that my Muslim, Tunisian nephew-in-law loves Tunisia, but he wants to raise his children in the USA. He is from a wealthy family. Tunisia is a ‘free’ country by the standards of that part of the world. But he loves both countries.

So is the view of your drycleaner more ‘real’ than that of the many Iraqi expatiates here in the USA? Or is perhaps the answer somewhere between the two?

If you think that the USA requires that people loose their culture when they cross our boarders I’d like to invite you the attend mass at the Byzantine Catholic Church our family attends. It is the same church that comes with his ex-wife’s village and family from Lebanon when they fled the Christian slaughter not too many years ago. My husband is Byzantine Catholic from the Ukraine. He still practices his grandfather’s form of Catholicism. I am of Irish/Italian decent and therefore Roman Catholic. Or perhaps you’d enjoy attending the Mosque my niece and her husband from Tunisia attend? My family has people in it from all sorts of cultures… Irish, English, Spanish, American Indian, Lebanon, Ukraine, Tunisian, French, German … many of them were born out side of the USA. Would you like to come sample our cuisines from our cultures, speak our languages with us, visit our extended families around the world? This will show you how we had to give up our cultures…. I’m sorry to disappoint you but you will find that we are all very ‘American’ and very much hold on the beauty of our inherited cultures. The USA is a melting pot. Sure there are ignorant Americans (USA) as there are ignorant Canadians, French, Germans, English, and ignorant people in all countries. But as in all countries, there are many who are not ignorant. I have seen far less discrimination and xenophobia in the USA than I have ever seen in any other part of this globe.

Now you cannot have it both ways. Many in the world community will say exactly what you have said out the USA accepting other points of view. And then they turn right around and say that our weakness is that we are so opened minded that we even let terrorist run free in our country least we offend them. You cannot have it both ways.

By Canadian peacekeeper, I presume you mean a Canadian who works for the UN. If one carefully selects whom they ask a question of, they can ensure which response they will get. The thousands of Iraqi expatriates and Iraqis still living in Iraq who have been working with the US and UK governments do not agree with the peacekeeper. So who is right? Perhaps there are many sides to the story. I will take the word of thousands before I take the word of one.

Oh we do hear these things. We get news from all over the world from many sources. Again you are assuming that we are airheads lead easily lead around in the dark. All countries, yours included feed their population propaganda. All newscasters present their stories to support their own views. We know there is a difference. Why do you only listen to the left wing propaganda being fed to the world?

I can hardly believe you are now turning against the USA for our involvement in the two world wars that for the most part we never wanted to be involved in. The two wars in which many, many thousands of American lives were lost to free Europe for being overrun. Now are you going to say that the Europeans wanted to be ruled by Hitler? All I can say is that this proves that no good deed goes unpunished.

Many, many of us in the USA read not only our own newspapers but also many of those published worldwide. Do remember that the Internet is international. We are not the stupid, ignorant, warmongers who you are making us out to be.

Here are some good links to news sources world wide… just a start. Happy reading. Then try looking at Amnisty internations’s site

http://www.world-newspapers.com/
http://www.geocities.com/~oberoi/newspapr.html
http://www.inkpot.com/news/
http://www.ipl.org/div/news/

I am so sad to see that you are buying into blanket anti-USA sentiments. That you have not bothered to do the research necessary to arrive at a balanced look at the issues. There are so many sources of information available.

Your dialogue shows only one thing.. that you have a very low opinion of the USA. I’ve lived with this very outlook from people across the globe since I was a young girl.

Since then I’ve often wished that the USA would just turn it’s back on the world, keep our money to ourselves. (Look it’s not just money.. it’s the sweat off our brow turned into and exchangeable resource.) I wish we would stop buying from the international markets, stop importing our jobs out side the USA, and so forth. But then if we say we want to do that, we are criticized for that too. You see it does not matter what the USA does. We are dammed if we do and dammed if be don’t. So the best we can do is what fits our needs. No other country in this world apologizes for looking out for their own interests. But we do not overrun countries just to be bullies.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Zuzus_Petals:
There SURE isn't 65% support for the war here---but that's because we hear our own newscasts, not just yours...and YES, there iS a difference. <hr /></blockquote>Yep, and there is a difference between NBC and CBS and Fox and UPN and CNN, etc. I flip through and watch lots of different channels and get different (but not conflicting YET) info on each channel. It isn't a border issue, it's a perception issue. Different stations have different perceptions of what is going on and report the facts as they know them differently. I can tell you our newscasts are NOT reporting a lot of things, out of national security interests. Just like when your TV shows Aero Force One taking off live you can rest assured our President isn't in it.

Amanda

[ March 22, 2003, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: ace61502 ]

Zulu said Also, part of the reason I posted about this is because even though people have freedom of speech, doesn't give them the right to block traffic, impede others from doing their job, or, in essence, break the law.

Yep Zulu this is a point with me too. In the USA we have freedom of speech, not freedom of ‘civil disobedience’. It’s been an issue in our home. My nephew (husband’s side) was expelled from school for organizing an anti-war walkout. His mother is so very angry at the school system. She has stated that she is proud of him for doing it and will not require that he return the school. He’s in the 10th grade… but instead is letting him go the GED route. Now there’s a way to teach a child. We are very upset at the way she is handling this. At least our kids are a little smarter. When they heard LittleZ said cool!!! But then she said he was pretty stupid in reality. My son said.. “Well he’s messing up his life.”

My nephew thinks he’s being punished because he voiced his opinion. No he was expelled because he broke a law, disrupted school, etc. I am writing him a dissertation on the topic. If he wants freedom of speech he’s gonna get it. I love freedom of speech, in many countries in this world I’d not have a head anymore. I deplore civil disobedience.

Also, I was upset to learn that the US hockey players were booed in Canada when the USA National Anthem was played. Why get political over a hockey game? Why not peacefully tolerate the ungodly sound of this nation that is a thorn in your side, respecting the PEOPLE who are there.

This antic by the Canadian crowds only served to show that they are small minded. Not impressed with their actions at all. Now what is it someone was saying about Canadian’s being superior????

This isn't an invitation for EVERY AMERICAN to rush to support you...I've read the latest polls and 65% of the people in your country support the war---so, it's no secret that your opinion will have definite supporters...

I can choose to wear my hair up or down. I can live between Vietnamese (I've been told that Vietnam is ONE WORD now! Don't they know they have to ask my permission to change it? (nevermind that it's probably ALWAYS been that way)) and Dominican Republic and black neighbors, who, trust me, live their lifestyle unbroken. The VN neighbors even grow rice in their back yard...which ain't much. Every Saturday night is a DR block party. I'm looking forward to Cinco de Mayo

I’m sorry Zulu, I do not believe you. All those neighbors of yours had to check their cultures at the entry points upon arriving at on USA soil. Haven’ t you heard? And perhaps you should call the anti-ethnic ministry to drain that rice patty.

Did someone change the boarder entry signs to read “Welcome to the People’s Socialist Republic of the United States of America”? Gee see what happens when I’m not looking?

Certainly. I just disagree with it, and I hope you will read my opinion and others as more information, and not a judgment on your person.

That’s right Aeri, I’ve read many of your posts here. You are much more open minded than your post on this thread. We all learn from such debates.

Also, in Iraq, they killed their Olympians who did not perform well.

I think another thing that angers the Arab peoples is our relationship with Israel. I'm not sure how to rectify this myself because I agree that we should have a tight relationship with Israel, as God's chosen people according to the Bible. I agree that the Arabs are a valuable society, holding on to information during the Dark Ages of Europe and the rest of the world. Amazing, and a blessing.

Zulu, you are right that the Arab and Muslim world sites this as their reason for not liking the USA. Well if they care so much about the Palestinians then why will they not help the Palestinians? Why did they turn them out and even slaughter so many of them? Where is this love for their Palestinian brothers? Or is it just a nice excuse for their behavior? Personally I think that what the Zionists did in the middle is his horrible. But no less so than then other peoples in that part of the world have done to each other since the beginning of time. The Palestinian’ reaction to the Zionists have also been less than wonderful. It has been a bloody place, like the rest of the world, since the beginning. And it’s been brother fighting brother. The Jewish and Muslim populations complain about how oppressed they are. Yet both the most discriminated against religion in the Middle East is the Catholic… discriminated against by both the Jewish and Muslim communities. There is no secret as to why the Catholic community there is small most were killed or fled. The Jewish, Catholic (and later ‘Christian’) and Muslim faiths are all for the same source. Yet the people’s of those religions have fought each other like the Hatfield’s and McCoy’s for centuries. The way I see it they are all wrong and it’s time for all of them to come to the bargaining table and show the rest of the world that our religion (again all religions based on THE BOOK) is not a joke.

Hey! Who went and changed that quote by aeri? Darn it, these people just don't want me to use this language correctly! They shift the sand around so that *I* look like an idiot! (And the readers think: Petals, you don't need help to look like an idiot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

Geesh! I didn't read that as "There's not 65% support for USA here" as in, in Canada. Duh.

Anyway, Aeri, how do you know there's not 65% in Canada? Why do we trust these polls anyway? Hasn't anyone ever heard of the mathematical concept called "probability?" Why do we trust the weather man or woman so implicitly? If they predict 40% chance of rain, and it doesn't rain, that means there was 0 chance of rain and the weather predictor was wrong.

Okay, just trying to lighten up some now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Petals

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aeri:
As a Canadian--I'd like you to take my opinion into consideration....Did you know that Iraq is a Democratic country? <hr /></blockquote>

Couldn't you have claimed to be from France or Germany before making such a statement?

They voted for their leaders in the USSR too. It is hardly a democracy when the options on the ballot are "1)Saddam Hussein or 2)Please kill my family"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Also, did you know that of ALL Arabic countries, Iraq has the most freedoms for WOMEN?<hr /></blockquote>

So what? 60% of Iraqis rely on aid for food. That hardly sounds like a benevolent regime.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My dry cleaner (who has recently moved here from Iraq) tells me that Saddam Hussein causes a lot less problems for them as citizens than the American government does---bombing their country to death.<hr /></blockquote>

Well, what's telling to me here is that he chose to immigrate to Canada. If Iraq is an okay place to live, why move here?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Another open ended question---why doesn't the American population hear these things? Let's look back at the politics of two previous world wars for the answer----wartime propaganda. Your media tells you what you want to hear. Plain and simple. <hr /></blockquote>

Actually, if you watch CNN, I think they've had very good coverage. They've covered dissenting opinions.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />There SURE isn't 65% support for the war here<hr /></blockquote>

If I remember correctly, Saddam Hussein was offering money to the families of "martyrs" who suicide attack Americans or Israelis.

If I were the President and this guy was offering bounties for American Blood, I'd kick his [censored] too.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />For the life of me, I can't understand why people who generally want fairness and peace within their own country can support their own government slaughtering innocent people. <hr /></blockquote>

The only innocent people who are going to be killed are going to be people that Saddam deliberately positions around military targets so that bleeding hearts will bleed some more.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The Ten Commandments say "Thou Shalt Not Kill"...there is no footnote for war....<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, and then right after that, God ordered Joshua to go into cities and kill every man woman and child.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zorweb:
...what the Zionists did in the middle is his horrible...<hr /></blockquote>I'm sure I'll kick myself later, but who are the Zionists and how do you distinguish them from the Jews?

I believe they are militants who are seeking a Jewish homeland for the Israelis, free of Arabs...don't know for certain. Maybe this site will help. I found if fast doing a quick search
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15760c.htm

Crayongirl,

I'm sure I'll kick myself later, but who are the Zionists and how do you distinguish them from the Jews?

I cannot believe you read my rant. You deserve a metal. As you can tell by now I love debate and discussion. That is how we all learn. Or at least how I learn. No need to kick yourself.

Here is some info. I love the internet for making so much info available so easily.

Zionism, the national movement for...in its ancient homeland was attained.

Not all Jewish people are Zionists

I have a wonderful book, “Blood Brothers”, written by a Palestinian Catholic priest who was a child when the Zionists moved into Palestine. (Note that I do not call them Jews because there were already Jews living there side by side with the Muslims and Catholics is peace for a long time. I use the terms to distinguish between the groups and their outlooks.) It’s a sad book with a wonder perspective of forgiveness and moving on. Right now I cannot find it so I don’t have his name.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zorweb:

I cannot believe you read my rant. You deserve a metal. As you can tell by now I love debate and discussion. That is how we all learn. Or at least how I learn. No need to kick yourself.

Here is some info. I love the internet for making so much info available so easily.

Zionism, the national movement for...in its ancient homeland was attained.

Not all Jewish people are Zionists

I have a wonderful book, “Blood Brothers”, written by a Palestinian Catholic priest who was a child when the Zionists moved into Palestine. (Note that I do not call them Jews because there were already Jews living there side by side with the Muslims and Catholics is peace for a long time. I use the terms to distinguish between the groups and their outlooks.) It’s a sad book with a wonder perspective of forgiveness and moving on. Right now I cannot find it so I don’t have his name.<hr /></blockquote>I doubt, no, I know we will disagree on both the meaning and intent of the word. I was interested only in your definition of the word, not another a website's. I now have your definition and we'll just have to agree to disagree <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

I know Jews and Muslims can live together in relative peace. I know it intimately. Hubby's one, I'm the other. So, neither of us (you and I) are unbiased in this matter. I enjoy the majority of your posts/opinions/insights much too much to engage in this particular debate.

Crayongirl,

If you mean to say that the terms “Zionist” and “Jew” are the same then we will have to disagree, respectfully.

The reason I gave a link to a web site it is that it gives the definition that I have heard all my life. As definition from Webster that I’ve enclosed below. These are not definitions I made up. They are the recognized definition of Zionist/Zionism.

One entry found for Zionism.

Main Entry: Zi·on·ism
Pronunciation: 'zI-&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1896
: an international movement orig. for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel
- Zi·on·ist /-nist/ adjective or noun
- Zi·on·is·tic /"zI-&-'nis-tik/ adjective

Crayongirl,

Not wanting to start a debate on this either, but I am curious to know what you think a Zionist is. I have read some books that spoke of Jews in a favorable light, but didn't equate them with Zionists.

This is just for information and not for fuel for a debate or an attack on you or other Jews.

Thank you,

Petals

Thanks to all who replied to this thread..it's always nice to get a good old fashioned discussion going...

A few points:

Marriedgirl:

Everything you said sounded like it came from the latest newscast regarding the Iraq war. I realize your husband is a member of the military and I feel for you--but there is another opinion. Some recommended reading materials for YOU and everyone else who spouted propaganda on this thread: The Unseen Hand by A. Ralph Epperson

Ace:
A few POWs have talked?

Those people were taken to Cuba almost 2 years ago. They're away from their families and the US government still isn't sure what to do with them. They'll in cells that some dogs would be unhappy with and some are forced to stand when sleeping. Ever heard of pressure tactics? These are the same tactics that can make innocent people admit to crimes they didn't commit.

Faith:

Most of your argument is well taken, however, I disagree that if Saddam doesn't run his democracy the way the US does, that it's WRONG. Many times in history, the people have overthrown a government that rapes and pillages---this could have easily happened in Iraq as well. I don't think it's the responsibility of the US to fix this problem.

CrayonGirl:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> And exactly WHY did these people leave their countries of birth? My guess? To have a better and more free life. Interesting that they couldn't have that at home. <hr /></blockquote>A better life maybe, not necessarily a more FREE one. That's your interpretation. My father is an immigrant...he's not here because a dictator ruled his homeland.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I realise that a great number of people in other countries don't like the US. Personally, I no longer care. IMO, we're d*mned if we do and d*mned if we don't. <hr /></blockquote>Hey--you said it, not me. In fact, I have nothing against Americans OR the people of any other countries--it's the bloody governments that piss me off.

Chris:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What about the UN Resolution agreed to by Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi Parliament back in 1991 that said they would give up X, Y, and Z and that UN inspectors would be allowed UNHINDERED access to all Iraq for inspection? <hr /></blockquote>Hmm....what about the UN resolution that denounced the US led attacks on IRAQ? OH--doesn't that count? Is it only IRAQ that has to obey the UN? Besides---Iraq had 17 UN infractions, the US had 70....Israel had 90. What's your point?

Zuzu:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I have internet that is not filtered by the gov't. <hr /></blockquote>Internet is filtered by the government in many Arab nations, including those who are direct US allies. The internet is filtered there because of RELIGIOUS reasons...In many Arab nations, religion and government exist together...it has nothing to do with diminished freedoms.

OH...and a quick note--Christianity is tolerated in IRAQ, yet, not tolerated in many other middle eastern countries--pretty darn flexible for a MANIAC like Saddam, huh?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Of course, I see SH slaughtering more people and raping and abusing them more than the US troops are. <hr /></blockquote>Where? I don't see any of that? In fact, the only place I've ever heard stuff like this is in George Bush's dissertations.

Zorweb:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Since then I’ve often wished that the USA would just turn it’s back on the world, keep our money to ourselves. (Look it’s not just money.. it’s the sweat off our brow turned into and exchangeable resource.) I wish we would stop buying from the international markets, stop importing our jobs out side the USA, and so forth. <hr /></blockquote>How much money does the United States currently owe in loans from other countries? Didn't it just hit ONE TRILLION dollars?

You want to stop buying from international markets? LOL..that's a laugh--Luckily for their friendship with CHINA (OH SORRY, that's a non-sequitor)you wouldn't have any affordable goods in your marketplace. The United States doesn't TRADE with other countries to keep THEM afloat, you know!

Slapnuts:

I'm not going to pick apart your quotes because you're the type of person who sticks to their guns, right or wrong. I don't see any need to...but I will say this---I DISAGREE completely with CNN's use of these glitzy names like "shock and awe"....WTF---AWE? What's so awesome about tearing a country apart? This isn't a videogame--it's people's lives, their homeland....

In closing, I'd like to say again, that I am NOT Anti-American, by a long shot...I am not against any of the innocent victims of these TERRIBLE governments.

While I feel for those of you who take the newscasts literally, I choose to read everything I can, not just during times like these, but always.....I don't trust the American government's reasons for going to IRAQ. By saying this, I'm not breaking any laws...I'm not stopping anyone from going about their everyday lives...I'm simply putting into effect one of the great US freedoms---freedom of speech.

Take my rantings for what they're worth--another perspective...and thanks for yours, as well.

Hoping the war ends soon.......

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aeri:
Ace:
A few POWs have talked?

Those people were taken to Cuba almost 2 years ago. They're away from their families and the US government still isn't sure what to do with them. <hr /></blockquote>Here you are taking what you read/hear and distorting it to suit your views. NO, they were NOT taken to Cuba 2 years ago, they surrendered here in the last few days. Sheesh.

Amanda

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aeri:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />What about the UN Resolution agreed to by Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi Parliament back in 1991 that said they would give up X, Y, and Z and that UN inspectors would be allowed UNHINDERED access to all Iraq for inspection? <hr /></blockquote>Hmm....what about the UN resolution that denounced the US led attacks on IRAQ? OH--doesn't that count? Is it only IRAQ that has to obey the UN? Besides---Iraq had 17 UN infractions, the US had 70....Israel had 90. What's your point?<hr /></blockquote>[/qb]

Um, so it is international law that the US can't invade Iraq? It IS international laws that Saddam has been breaking for YEARS. Someone else already stated here that no country has to have UN sanction to start a war. They don't have to ask the UN if they can, either. The US asked for UN support, and thanks to France and Germany stonewalling they didn't get it. MOST other countries supported ENFORCING INTERNATIONAL LAW.

Amanda

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aeri:
Slapnuts:

I'm not going to pick apart your quotes because you're the type of person who sticks to their guns, right or wrong. <hr /></blockquote>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> So am I generally right or generally wrong?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I DISAGREE completely with CNN's use of these glitzy names like "shock and awe"....WTF---AWE? What's so awesome about tearing a country apart? <hr /></blockquote>

They report it that way, because that's how the military characterises it. I think that they call it that because the idea is to shock them with how much more precise their technology has become in 12 years. (Think about that, computers were DOS based back then. Windows ,if it existed, was just in it's infancy. Now we've had versions 1 to 3.1, 95, 98, 2000, NT, XP and others) Iraq's technology has pretty muched stayed put.

Iraq was soundly defeated last time around, byt Saddam remained as ruler. He's been confident that he can draw the US into a costly guerilla war. The idea of the "shock and awe" is to give Saddam a "Holy Sh*t" moment where he hopefully will realize that he's fighting a losing cause and just surrender.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Hoping the war ends soon...... <hr /></blockquote>Ditto.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ace61502:
It IS international laws that Saddam has been breaking for YEARS. <hr /></blockquote>In all fairness, America breaks International law frequently, whenever it suits her purpose.

International law is a pretty loose concept and I don't think that is enforcable enough to be relevant anyway.

The stated reason for this war ought to be that Saddam is supporting terrorism. Nothing more.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aeri:
I don't see any need to...but I will say this---I DISAGREE completely with CNN's use of these glitzy names like "shock and awe"....WTF---AWE? What's so awesome about tearing a country apart? This isn't a videogame--it's people's lives, their homeland....<hr /></blockquote>There is plenty of AWE in plan the US MILITARY calls Shock and Awe (the name didn't come from CNN!). The definition of AWE:

1 : an emotion variously combining dread, veneration, and wonder that is inspired by authority or by the sacred or sublime <stood in awe of the king> <regard nature's wonders with awe>
2 : archaic : a : DREAD, TERROR b : the power to inspire dread

Have you never done a crossword puzzle with the clue "to inspire fear". The answer is always AWE. Just so you know.

Amanda

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Slapnuts:
In all fairness, America breaks International law frequently, whenever it suits her purpose.
<hr /></blockquote>Pray tell.....

Hmm....what about the UN resolution that denounced the US led attacks on IRAQ?
What resolution is that? When was it entered, debated, voted on by the U.N.? Not saying you need to be an expert, but tell me SOMETHING about it.

I don’t believe (I may be wrong) there have been any resolution introduced, let alone passed such as this, either in the Security Council or the General Assembly.

And you could call it the Iraqi forced, US led, visibly supported by at least 40 countries attacks.

Aeri,
Could you please point me to a credible source that says that the USA has “ONE TRILLION dollars” in outstanding debts to other countries?
Now let’s talk about how many billions upon billions of dollars the United States has loaned counties world wide, how many billions upon billions of dollars in debt the USA have forgiven to countries worldwide.

You want to stop buying from international markets? LOL..that's a laugh--Luckily for their friendship with CHINA (OH SORRY, that's a non-sequitor)you wouldn't have any affordable goods in your marketplace. The United States doesn't TRADE with other countries to keep THEM afloat, you know!

For one thing I do not think our trading with China is a non-sequester. Those were not my words.

As for the USA trading with other countries, sure we do it for cheaper goods, as does Canada. But we do not HAVE TO. We could produce most, if not all things internally. I for one think that cheap junk is not a reason to sell our country. We are not better off because we have more junk in our homes. One TV, one stereo, etc etc is fine. I recall years ago when the USA had viable clothing and fabric industry we actually had cloths made of good fabrics. Today most clothing is made cheaply from fabrics that my seamstress would have never even considered using.

So you can hang it up on this one.

Aeri, you seem to have a very great hate and distrust of the USA. Since everyone here is wrong if they are from the USA, there is no reason to even try to talk to you.

Those people were taken to Cuba almost 2 years ago. They're away from their families and the US government still isn't sure what to do with them. They'll in cells that some dogs would be unhappy with and some are forced to stand when sleeping. Ever heard of pressure tactics? These are the same tactics that can make innocent people admit to crimes they didn't commit.

Would you prefer that they be treated as Saddam and the Taliban treats their prisoners of war? Or as the terrorists treat their prisoners? Like chopping off heads. That one works well.

Most of your argument is well taken, however, I disagree that if Saddam doesn't run his democracy the way the US does, that it's WRONG. Many times in history, the people have overthrown a government that rapes and pillages---this could have easily happened in Iraq as well. I don't think it's the responsibility of the US to fix this problem.

Please look up the definition for democracy. There has to be a choice at the ballot box for it to be a democracy.

What you are saying it seems is that it is the responsibility of the people of Iraq to fix their own problems? Am I right? That no one in this entire world is responsible for helping other nations? Do you feel the same way when you see some one in your own city with a problem.. Just close your eyes and walk by? It’s their problem not yours? I’m just curious.

And if people from that country ask for help, what then? Is the world community supposed to shut their eyes? Do not forget, there are 40 some nations that support the British/US actions where.

Hey--you said it, not me. In fact, I have nothing against Americans OR the people of any other countries--it's the bloody governments that piss me off.

Sounds to me like you’ve been calling us a bunch of stupid, ignorants, lead by the nose. Sounds like you do have a problem with us.

Hmm....what about the UN resolution that denounced the US led attacks on IRAQ? OH--doesn't that count? Is it only IRAQ that has to obey the UN? Besides---Iraq had 17 UN infractions, the US had 70....Israel had 90. What's your point?

Again, could you point us to a credible source on this? I’d like to read about these. I am not saying they do not exist. I honestly want to see what they are.

OH...and a quick note--Christianity is tolerated in IRAQ, yet, not tolerated in many other middle eastern countries--pretty darn flexible for a MANIAC like Saddam, huh?

From what I’ve heard Saddam is not religious. He does not care what religion people are, only that he can used it to help control them. And yes I have also heard that he does not use religion as a discriminator in who he murders, tortures and rapes.

Of course, I see SH slaughtering more people and raping and abusing them more than the US troops are.

Where? I don't see any of that? In fact, the only place I've ever heard stuff like this is in George Bush's dissertations.

You are kidding us right? If you have only seen these things mentioned here then you have been hiding from them. Please do some in-depth reading. The atrocities of the Saddam and his men have been reported world wide for years, even before the 1990 war. If you are going to argue a point. Please get your facts straight.

Slapnuts: I'm not going to pick apart your quotes because you're the type of person who sticks to their guns, right or wrong.

Aeri, I am afraid that you are proving to be just as likely to support arguments with nothing to fall back on. From what you have said, you are most likely to believe things said against the USA. I guess we are just an evil empire.

In closing, I'd like to say again, that I am NOT Anti-American, by a long shot...I am not against any of the innocent victims of these TERRIBLE governments.

I am sorry but from what you have said you are very Anti-American. You see you cannot dislike the ‘terrible government’ of a free country and like the people. We are one and the same. Just as you are with your government in Canada.

While I feel for those of you who take the newscasts literally, I choose to read everything I can, not just during times like these, but always.....I don't trust the American government's reasons for going to IRAQ. By saying this, I'm not breaking any laws...I'm not stopping anyone from going about their everyday lives...I'm simply putting into effect one of the great US freedoms---freedom of speech.

Take my rantings for what they're worth--another perspective...and thanks for yours, as well.

There you go again.. you are so much more, well worldly, then the rest of us. YOU choose to read all the time but well we are just poor misguided stupid Americans. Yes you do have the right to your opinions.. even in the evil empire of the USA where we are, according to you only guided by the propaganda of our government. After all we are too stupid to read and think for ourselves. When one expresses their freedom of speech, with it comes the freedom of others to interpret and speak in return.

I am just shaking my head. You will obviously only listen to that which puts down the USA and makes us into something evil. Now who is listening to whose propaganda.

Zorweb, I agree with you! Excellent post.

Aeri, I think you have done just what you said Slappy does: sticking to your guns, whether right or wrong, and not just in this thread. Please take that as a suggestion for introspection and not as a judgment. We are all guilty of that at some point. I just suggest this because you are willing to tell someone else to do so (Slappy). If you still think you're right, that's fine, but if you're going to criticize someone for something, it's obviously a trait you do not find valuable and I would assume you don't what it to be characteristic of yourself.

Petals

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> In closing, I'd like to say again, that I am NOT Anti-American, by a long shot...I am not against any of the innocent victims of these TERRIBLE governments.
<hr /></blockquote>Everything you posted sure sounds Anti-American to me.

I would also like to know the resolution # and verbage on the following referenced UN resolution:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Hmm....what about the UN resolution that denounced the US led attacks on IRAQ? OH--doesn't that count? Is it only IRAQ that has to obey the UN? <hr /></blockquote>

I am a proud American, love my freedoms, including freedom of speech, but have a few questions about what is going on.

Why can't we get this man out of the country without destroying it?

Why wasn't the bidding for the reparation of Iraq put out to the public, but rather a select few companies, which one by the way is closely related to an unnamed cabinet official?

Why is a plan (to go to war with Iraq) that was originally thought up in 1998 by Don Rumsfeld, [censored] Cheney, and about 8 other members of the now current 40 member Cabinet, being executed and approved upon now when in 1998, we could not get it passed?

Why are we getting rid of a man who is clearly a monster; a man who instills fear, destroys his country and forces his beliefs on his people; by instilling fear, destroying the country and forcing our beliefs on the Iraqi people?

Along with our administration's well thought out theory that it is better to act and prevent than to sit back and wait and see, why aren't we more concerned about the long road ahead that the United States will have in rebuilding our severely damaged relations with Spain, France, Germany, Canada, North Korea, Mexico, Russia, China, possibly Turkey at this juncture, let's see, did I leave anybody out? Why is that not a concern?

Are we that "right" that we are going to assume that everything will be "ok" when this is over. Do you think that Russia is going to be our buddy after we hault their oil supplies? Are the Iraqi people going to like us that much after WE decide how we are going to spend the already frozen liquid assets of the Iraqi people currently in our possession which we are going to use for Humanitarian Aide, and who is going to decide how to use THEIR money?

I am truly proud of my president for making these very hard decisions and acting upon them as he has seen fit based on the information provided to him, and will stand proud when the sh*t hits the fan, and believe me it will.

The Iraqi people (from the limited interviews I've seen), are welcoming this invasion to oust a dictator that they have not been able to oust themselves for over 20 years.

We are going to rid a mad man from the helm of a arsenol of weapons (there were reports that the supposed non-existent weapons were being fired at the Americans).

We will hopefully, as a fringe benefit, get rid of Osama Bin Laden.

But again, I think the entire world has the same desires to oust Saddam Hussein but just not this way.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ace61502:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Slapnuts:
In all fairness, America breaks International law frequently, whenever it suits her purpose.
<hr /></blockquote>Pray tell.....<hr /></blockquote>OK. The first example that pops to mind is the US's UN dues. They haven't been paying them for some time. The US is something like a billion dollars in arrears.

Some of the reasons that they have may seem valid. For example, they withheld dues to protest the fact that they were not on the UN human rights commission and countries like Libya are.

Another example. In the 1980's President Reagan used US resources to topple a leftist government led by President Daniel Ortega.

Nicaragua sued the USA at the International Court of Justice. The US refused to appear before the court during the final hearings on the merits and never recognized the ICJ rulings as binding.

The ICJ found in favor of Nicaragua and awarded unspecified damages that was reportedly as much as $17 billion.

President Bush (Sr) pressured Nicaragua into dropping the case under the threat of cancelling any future U.S. aid to that country.

President Bush (Jr) recently withdrew from Ballistic missile treaties to build his missile shield.

The States also refuses to get on board with international treaties that it does not agree with such as the Kyoto accord, the international conventions on land mines and the international criminal court.

The reason that the rest of the world gets upset at America is that it frequently does what is in it's own interests and to hell with whomever disagrees.

The US is not only a military juggernaught, but a political and economic one as well. They frequently impose their will on other countries for their own benefit, but to the detriment of the other countries.

The concept of "international law" does not really work when one nation is far and away more powerful than any other.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Aeri, you seem to have a very great hate and distrust of the USA. Since everyone here is wrong if they are from the USA, there is no reason to even try to talk to you. <hr /></blockquote>Funny, I didn't say anyone was WRONG, I just disagreed. That's anti-American? Well, maybe I AM anti-American--but who said I had to be pro-American?

My information comes from a website run by Americans---if you'd like to take a peek, you can check it out at www.lewrockwell.com

And I'm not saying everyone from the US is wrong---I pretty much told Slappy he was wrong...and he's a Canuck, just like me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ March 26, 2003, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Nokomis ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Slapnuts:
The reason that the rest of the world gets upset at America is that it frequently does what is in it's own interests and to hell with whomever disagrees.<hr /></blockquote>My question is WHO DOESN'T. France and Germany didn't agree with this war, and they didn't jump on board with the rest of the world, so we don't have UN support because of a few countries.

Would YOU sign a contract that you didn't agree to the terms of? It isn't just the US that does this, it is just the US that takes flack for this.

Can you point out an infraction of international law where the US put 1000's of lives at risk? Like NOT going to war this week would have done?

Amanda

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gottobeme0320:
Why can't we get this man out of the country without destroying it?<hr /></blockquote>

Well, he is pretty stubborn. Besides, they're only trying to attack military targets. If anyone is destroying the country, it's the Iraqis that are setting fires to oil wells.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Why is a plan (to go to war with Iraq) that was originally thought up in 1998 by Don Rumsfeld, [censored] Cheney, and about 8 other members of the now current 40 member Cabinet, being executed and approved upon now when in 1998, we could not get it passed?<hr /></blockquote>

I would disagree that the idea of going to war with Iraq was thought up in 1998, when we did it in 1990 and have regretted letting Saddam off the hook ever since.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Why are we getting rid of a man who is clearly a monster; a man who instills fear, destroys his country and forces his beliefs on his people; by instilling fear, destroying the country and forcing our beliefs on the Iraqi people?<hr /></blockquote>

The Americans actually, I believe, are trying to instill hope in the Iraqi people. They're dropping leaflets by the millions over Iraq explaining that they are trying to liberate them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Why aren't we more concerned about rebuilding our severely damaged relations with Spain, France, Germany, Canada, North Korea, Mexico, Russia, China, possibly Turkey at this juncture, let's see, did I leave anybody out? Why is that not a concern?<hr /></blockquote>

Most of those countries are allies. Disagreement over Iraq won't be a make or break type issue.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But again, I think the entire world has the same desires to oust Saddam Hussein but just not this way.<hr /></blockquote>Well, eventually someone has to take some initiative. The previous President, IMHO was too lax when it came to Terrorist attacks on US property and interests.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ace61502:
Can you point out an infraction of international law where the US put 1000's of lives at risk? Like NOT going to war this week would have done?
<hr /></blockquote>Well, first of all, I don't disagree with what the States is doing in Iraq. I just disagree with some of the things that they say about it.

They criticize Iraq for ignoring the will of the UN, then they do the same thing. There is also something arrogant about the only country who ever attacked another country with nuclear weapons making themselves the judge of who should have nukes and who shouldn't.

Bush Sr used to say tthat the Gulf War was to restore democracy to Kuwait. Well, Kuwait isn't and never has been democratic.

I just think that they should be honest about their intentions.

Interesting website. Based on the info there, their role model is Ludwig von Mises, and his writings apparently claim that governments are the cause of war. No government, no war. Sorry, but I don't buy it. The cause of war is evil ambition in the hearts of humankind. If there were no formal government, people would band together and fight anyway, just as they did millenia ago. Those wars didn't spare civilians, either.

and concerning this:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aeri:
How much money does the United States currently owe in loans from other countries? Didn't it just hit ONE TRILLION dollars?
<hr /></blockquote>I assume you're referring to the national debt. It is not owed to other countries. It represents loans made to our government in the form of Treasury bills & bonds, Savings Bonds, etc. Much of it, I believe, is owed to the "Social Security Trust Fund" (Ponzi scheme extraordinaire), and much to banks and/or individuals. Not necessarily ALL within the country, but most of it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Slapnuts:
Well, first of all, I don't disagree with what the States is doing in Iraq. I just disagree with some of the things that they say about it.

They criticize Iraq for ignoring the will of the UN, then they do the same thing. There is also something arrogant about the only country who ever attacked another country with nuclear weapons making themselves the judge of who should have nukes and who shouldn't.<hr /></blockquote>They (well, SH is) are ignoring an agreement they entered into WILLINGLY. An agreement not to make weapons of mass destruction, an agreement to allow UN inspectors privilage to enter for inspections. And yes, the US used a nuke, and quickly realized the mistake and the dangers involved with nukes and THAT is why we don't want them used. A world without ANY nukes would be preferred, but that isn't going to happen. If ALL of our nukes were destroyed we wouldn't have any as a threat of retaliation if another country made one and DID use it. If SH had a nuclear warhead (which I'm sure he does) and he knew NO ONE else did, what would stop him from using it? You didn't bring up the fact that the US still has nukes, only that they try to say who can and can't. SH and his regime can't be trusted with them. Don't you think the US and other countries CAN be trusted with them?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Bush Sr used to say tthat the Gulf War was to restore democracy to Kuwait. Well, Kuwait isn't and never has been democratic.

I just think that they should be honest about their intentions.<hr /></blockquote>Could that have been a mistake? Incorrect wording? I was only 16 when CLINTON went into office, so I don't know a WHOLE lot about Bush, Sr's term.

Another point, maybe being COMPLETELY honest about intentions would undermine the attempt? If we had known the US was going to attack Afghanistan again the other night, so would the rest of the world and the raid wouldn't have gone as well, for example.

Amanda

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by smidgen:
I assume you're referring to the national debt. It is not owed to other countries.<hr /></blockquote>No, not ALL of it, but some is, yes. And the funny thing about money owed to other countries, is that often times, they owe US, too! Both countries owe the other, the debts for some reason don't cancel each other out.

A point on inter-country debt. One reason FOR it is it is a peacekeeping method all of it's own. Would you (assuming you are a normal person) go and attack someone who owed you money? (Yes, criminals do, but they aren't "normal" IMO)

I can't remember what class it was that we talked about this, but it was sure an interesting conversation!

Amanda

[ March 22, 2003, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: ace61502 ]

Treading on thin ice here ----

But as I recall from that 'economics' standard that I studied oh so very long ago --- the 'national debt' that the US owes, is within. We lively product gathering overindulging citizens of the US have a tendancy to live on borrowed money - and we borrow it from our children and grandchildren who will be so fortunate as to have income in their youth to pay the taxes we are spending in our old age (or relatively old age - in my case <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

As my daughter remarked just yesterday, I'm borrowing money to put her through college so she can pay off my Sr. care center bills... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Lucky woman am I. Not sure what she plans to do with my IRA that I've been investing in for more than twenty years, but I'm sure she has a use for it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The travesty here is not that we invaded Iraq, or that the US is 'pushing their weight around', or even that we are playing the role of 'earthwide police' that has been stuck on the US for centuries - but rather that, we have the grace to uphold the standards the world desires to live by - often supporting their failures and disadvantages with our own money while turning the other cheek and allowing them to slap us for doing so. Because we believe in the freedom of speech and the right to say and do as we/you believe you want to do - we stick out our necks to support your right to do so.

Often as a nation (in general) we disagree with the diabolic anti-american mumbo that rises up in the media in our own country and others, yet we provide the network of media, the reporters, the newspapers, and other resources for it to be spouted. No other country in the world has the resources that Americans have to HEAR the garbage that is spoken against us. And citizens of other countries are often not allowed to speak against their own governments in the same manner.

I disagree with your Anti-American malarky - but I defend your right to say it... You don't have to believe the same way I do, just don't try to stop me from saying what I want to say either.

God bless America - land of Free Speech and --- well, just a Blessed Land of Freedom - One Nation UNDER GOD!!!

I'm PROUD to be an AMERICAN!!!

Jan

Very well said Jan!

*standing ovation*

Amanda

<blockquote>quote:<hr />...if Saddam doesn't run his democracy the way the US does, that it's WRONG....
<hr /></blockquote>Perhaps we need to define democracy because we are obviously not on the same track here. What did you have in mind?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Many times in history, the people have overthrown a government that rapes and pillages---this could have easily happened in Iraq as well. <hr /></blockquote>It could have easily happened in the case of Hitler and Milosevic also. But it didn't.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I don't think it's the responsibility of the US to fix this problem. <hr /></blockquote>A coalition of 40 nations publicly disagree, while others like Japan and Saudi offer their silent agreement.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ace61502:
And yes, the US used a nuke, and quickly realized the mistake and the dangers involved with nukes and THAT is why we don't want them used.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, I don't think that attacking Japan with an atomic bomb was wrong. Japan immediately surrendered upon realizing that they were suddenly vastly overpowered. If only Saddam were as smart as the Japanese.

To quote The Amazing Spider-Man: "With great power comes great responsability". I think that for the most part, America has weilded it's power benevolently. Occasionally it hasn't.

But the world is fortunate that America is the World's sole super power and not, say the USSR.

My last word....

Just as every other great power that has desired to take control of the world, the United States will fall....I don't want to see it happen, but it seems like a whole new Roman empire to me....

I remain hopeful that the war ends soon....

Many times in history, the people have overthrown a government that rapes and pillages---this could have easily happened in Iraq as well.

Don't think it could have easily happened , but it certainly would have had a better chance if the UN sanctions had been lifted a lot earlier as to not decimate the middle and upper classes of Iraq. I honestly believe Hussein could very well have been over-thrown many many moons ago.

But its a bit late for dissecting all that now. I just hope all the servicemen and woman from all four countries now involved return home safely free from harm to their loved ones...and as equally the innocents in Iraq are kept out of harms way.

Peace!

My husband just informed me that a uh...neighbor? has been taking down our children's American flag. The first night it was thrown out in the yard. The second night, it was rolled up and placed under where it stood. Tonight, it was completely taken away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

So, I wrote a sign, to put in the window, that says:

You are a brave one to take a child's flag. God bless America and God protect our troops.

I just hope noone decides to throw a rock through the window, or realize my H is working lates and tries to break in and terrorize us.

How would that help promote peace in the Mid-East?

Petals

[ March 23, 2003, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Zuzus_Petals:
My husband just informed me that a neighbor has been taking down our children's American flag. The first night it was thrown out in the yard. The second night, it was rolled up and placed under where it stood. Tonight, it was completely taken away.
<hr /></blockquote>That's disgusting. You do live in the States, right?

Zuzus,

That's terrible and gutless. What that person did is not free speech.. it's theft.

Seems that whoever did it feels that free speech is ok as long as it agrees with their opinion.

Why not add to your sign that you want your flag returned?

Are you actually siding with Saddam Hussein??? It does not Matter WHAT country you are from… he IS a world threat.

We know that China has nuclear weapons and may be producing chemical/biological weapons. However they have not used them on their own population nor are they threatening to use them on the world right now. We are not attacking Iraq because Saddam is a dictator, but because he is producing weapons of mass destruction, he has used them on his own people and neighbors. He is a threat to the world community as he supports terrorists through training, financing and possibly weapons. This is the same as declaring war against the world. Do not forget that the terrorists have made it clear that their goal is to kill all but themselves worldwide.

If you call raping women (and young girls) that he snatches off the street freedom for women, then you are correct by your definition. But note that it is not freedom to be scared to walk down the street for fear of being raped or killed. OR living in fear of wondering when the next time he is going to murder his own people in mass numbers. Have YOU ever wondered how many more Iraqi’s would be alive today if Saddam was overthrown 20 years ago?

I agree with you that no country is perfect (including Canada and the USA), but you can expect to be a little more perfect than to be a rapist, murderer, and a terrorist? Saddam is trying (and has been trying for several years) to wipe out the Kurds completely. And why, because he doesn’t like their way of life and they oppose his governing. What did the Kurds ever do to him or Iraq that justifies them being sprayed like so many insects? Were they allowed to vote in the ‘election’? We understand their religion and culture enough to know that their leader (which wasn’t even elected to be president) is a sick, disgusting man that needs to be removed.

Just for your information, most Iraqi’s still living in Iraq have wanted us to come overthrow Saddam for years. And we ARE NOT bombing their civilian, but rather we are bombing their government. The civilians have been warned to stay away from government buildings. We are being as selective as possible. If we were going to kill all Iraqi’s we would have just bombed the country completely the first day. We are saving the civilians from a madman. And we have also agreed to rebuild their cities at our own expense… something no other countries have ever done.

If we are “slaughtering innocent lives” than tell me, just what is Saddam doing.

Quote ‘the Ten Commandments do say “Thou Shall NOT Kill”.’

But in truth the Ten Commandments say “Thou Shall not Commit Murder”. King James is not an accurate translation for the Aramaic. (I am a Lebanese Catholic.)

So why don’t you tell that to Saddam. Do you realize how many Iraqis fall prey to that man’s sick mind? THOUSANDS! The U.S. Military is protecting those who surrender, and the Iraqi population, to live once again in a free Iraq without the terrors of Saddam. We would also welcome any who want to come to live in (USA) America.

Aeri, before you leave I would really appreciate you giving me the Resolution # and verbage that I requested earlier. I have done a quick search on the internet and cannot find it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Hmm....what about the UN resolution that denounced the US led attacks on IRAQ? OH--doesn't that count? Is it only IRAQ that has to obey the UN? <hr /></blockquote>Thanks

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aeri:
A better life maybe, not necessarily a more FREE one. That's your interpretation. My father is an immigrant...he's not here because a dictator ruled his homeland.<hr /></blockquote>I would bet money that your dry cleaner left Iraq for a better life, including a more free one. As to your father, dunno. My husband left his country for a more free life. He left a Muslim country in order to practice his religion (Islam) freely, without the interference of whatever group happened to be in power that week. As did his brother who moved to Canada, and the other who moved to Scotland. My Iraqi friends left Iraq for freedom. Do you really believe that Iraq offers as much freedom as Canada?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Hey--you said it, not me. In fact, I have nothing against Americans OR the people of any other countries--it's the bloody governments that piss me off...

...In closing, I'd like to say again, that I am NOT Anti-American, by a long shot...I am not against any of the innocent victims of these TERRIBLE governments.

While I feel for those of you who take the newscasts literally, I choose to read everything I can, not just during times like these, but always.....I don't trust the American government's reasons for going to IRAQ. By saying this, I'm not breaking any laws...I'm not stopping anyone from going about their everyday lives...I'm simply putting into effect one of the great US freedoms---freedom of speech.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, we know how you view us. We are woefully ignorant and lead by the nose by the almighty media. We don't read or think for ourselves. We are the brash, unthinking, silly Americans who must be pitied and put in our places. Our government is the evil empire that wants to rule the world and we, the innocent victims of the terrible government, must be saved from ourselves. No, you don't hate Americans...we're just too stupid to see that. I'm amazed I can put my shoes on without assistance.

An aside to the two Z's: Really, respectully, I decline. I don't want to sidetrack this thread (and am engaging in a mental tuchus kicking of myself for asking...SEE! I knew I would). If you'd like, you could email me and I'll give my perspective on the use of the word...just remember, my perspective is biased and I don't wish to change your minds.

[ March 23, 2003, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Crayongirl ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The travesty here is not that we invaded Iraq, or that the US is 'pushing their weight around', or even that we are playing the role of 'earthwide police' that has been stuck on the US for centuries - but rather that, we have the grace to uphold the standards the world desires to live by - often supporting their failures and disadvantages with our own money while turning the other cheek and allowing them to slap us for doing so. Because we believe in the freedom of speech and the right to say and do as we/you believe you want to do - we stick out our necks to support your right to do so.
<hr /></blockquote>SJ2

I agree with you that we are the earthwide police, and that we are "often supporting their failures and disadvantages with our own money while turning the other cheek and allowing them to slap us for doing so". I think you're absolutely right about that. Our hearts have always been in the right place in assisting countries in need, but the honesty of those other countries receiving our help has always been questionable in my mind.

Slapnuts, thank you for your insightful and intelligent alternate viewpoints. I needed that.

And I agree with the previous post who prays for our soldiers, and corresponders for their safe return. I also keep in my prayers our administration in the heavy burden that they bear in protecting our country. GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Who knows, maybe the good in this will be the humbling of our nation. Maybe we need to get back to basics, continue to thank God for what we have and understand that the rest is just gravy. We have it so good because we make decisions that allow it, but sometimes we lose sight of the basics. We are a strong nation and thank God would never put ourselves in the position that the poor Iraqi people were forced to by placing a dictator like Saddam Hussein at the helm. Thank God for democracy and the American way.

Seems that whoever did it feels that free speech is ok as long as it agrees with their opinion.
So how come you are bashing Aeri for having a different opinion? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I find interesting the turns this discussion takes on the MB forum. We are here because we want to improve our relationships. We do this (or try to) by applying the principles of self-improvement and respect towards the other. We learn to contain our anger, to give up being controling and to discuss our problems. Can we think larger scale and apply that to a friendship, to an attitude as a citizen and that of a country?

Do you feel the same way when you see some one in your own city with a problem.. Just close your eyes and walk by?
Zorweb, you are a responsible citizen. So what would you do, if you heard strangers fighthing next door? Most likely you’d call the police. The big scale equivalent of that is the UN/Security Council. Not ONE country (or two).

This is the same as declaring war against the world.
Two people walk on a street. One makes a move, the other one THINKS he is being attacked, so he takes out the gun and shoots. Who is the murderer?

war on terrorism
Terrorism is an act of an independent organization. This war is a state attacking another state. Has nothing to do with terrorism, except for the AWE which the war inspires, and for which ace showed us the definition : a : DREAD, TERROR b : the power to inspire dread. You're absolutely right, ace, There is plenty of AWE in plan the US MILITARY calls Shock and Awe.

Back to MB, if you want to build a healthy marriage relationship you NEVER attack your spouse. If you want to build a healthy international relationship you NEVER attack another country. It’s as simple as sticking to a principle, no matter how justified you’d be to do otherwise.

Thank you Aeri, remember you promised that it was your last word... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

God Bless America!

[ March 23, 2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Little_Z ]

Wthaidhy,

So how come you are bashing Aeri for having a different opinion?

I am not bashing Aeri for having a different opinion. She’s entitled to it, just as all the rest of use here are entitled to ours. What I have done is to present and argue my point. I also answered her questions from my perspective. That is discussion, debate, etc. That is how we all learn. When a person, myself included, puts forth their opinion they can usually expect that others will give their point of view. That is the American way.

Zorweb, you are a responsible citizen. So what would you do, if you heard strangers fighthing next door? Most likely you’d call the police. The big scale equivalent of that is the UN/Security Council. Not ONE country (or two).

There are 40 some countries behind this action. We are not acting unilaterally. The message I hear is that the 40 countries are not as important part of the world community. If the US is remiss by not getting UN approval, than so are the other countries that have entered into wars since WWII and not gotten UN approval.

The UN Security counsel in akin to calling 911. The USA, Britain and the 40 other countries backing the intervention are equivalent to the police. All that is happening is that the USA is acting on resolutions and a situation that is already in progress.. for the last 12 years.

No other country has ever asked the UN permission to have a war. All other countries have simply gone ahead and done it. Why is a different standard being applied to the USA? We have UN approval from previous resolutions, yet we are being grilled and accused of something no other country has ever been expected to do.

I do not recall the US ever giving up its sovereignty. I certainly never voted on it.

Terrorism is an act of an independent organization. This war is a state attacking another state. Has nothing to do with terrorism

In the proclamation of war the USA made after 9/11, we declared war against terrorists and all nations that harbor them. Iraq at least harbors them. And from all we can tell it probably supported, supplied and trained them.

Back to MB, if you want to build a healthy marriage relationship you NEVER attack your spouse. If you want to build a healthy international relationship you NEVER attack another country. It’s as simple as sticking to a principle; no matter how justified you’d be to do otherwise.

Even the Harleys say that MB principles only apply to a married couple. To use MB concepts with the world at large leaves one vulnerable to all sorts of manipulation and abuse.

What is going on with this war is that if a person attacks a member of my family, or damages my property I will take all means I have at my disposal to put them away for a very long time.

In WWII some 35% of the USA population was opposed to the USA entering the war.

There are several things that I see important in this thread.

1. People can express their points of view. We have freedom of speech. One of the hardest things to do when people are exercising that freedom is to accept another’s right to that opinion with respect. It does not mean that we must accept their opinion. To say, or imply, that someone holds an opinion because they are stupid is not respectful by any stretch of the imagination.

2. When people put forth their opinion it is more credible when they present facts and some real meat to back it up. To support a point of view by saying that any one who disagrees is ignorant tells me that there is little substance behind their point of view.

3. The truth of the situation is somewhere in between all that we have said here. None of us is 100% right, nor 100% wrong. That is why I asked for some credible sources. Though I do a lot of reading on current events, like every one else, I’ve not read everything available. I want to read/find other sources of information. I know that ALL countries and news organizations twist the truth to fit their perceived needs.

[ March 23, 2003, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: zorweb ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />That's disgusting. You do live in the States, right?
<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, I live in the US. That flag has been out there for over a year. It was a little one we got for the kids, not a certified Am flag.

This really saddens me because I have been thinking for a long time of flying a certified flag (or whatever it's called...one that has to be burned if it should ever touch the ground), but not in this neighborhood. I'm proud that my father is a veteran, and my H's grandfather who just died was a veteran, as is my grandfather.

If H's grandmother displays her US gov't issue flag she received upon Gpa's death, would someone steal it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I hope not.

Wthaidhy you said:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Seems that whoever did it feels that free speech is ok as long as it agrees with their opinion.
So how come you are bashing Aeri for having a different opinion? <hr /></blockquote>Well, funny thing I found on another site:

By Susan Wise Bauer
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Everyone has a right to their private opinion.

Those who publish their opinions had better be able to back up their assertions with logic and authoritative citations.

Those who publish uninformed opinions SHOULD be criticized--although with an eye to improving the opinion and reaching greater understanding, NOT with an eye to ripping the argument to shreds for the fun of it.

<hr /></blockquote>I think Aeri is entitled to her opinion, and as I said, I just disagree with it. I have offered my opinion, as she has hers, hoping that we can make heads or tails of this situation, trying help each other see more clearly.

However, when one chooses not to see, they face criticism (not saying this of Aeri, just pointing out a fact, as I have no knowledge what Aeri is thinking, other than what she posts). So do spouses. In fact, the damage done by spouses who refuse to see is greater than this discussion has done. I agree with you though that we should practice here the efforts we are making at home.

Included in the efforts at home are boundaries; in MB language, that is Plan B. But we need boundaries besides.

Zorweb said that we are one with our gov'ts. I say, "Yes and no." Yes, because we are parts of a whole, which can be likened to Christ and the Church, for those who are Christians, or the human body. However, I do think differently from my government because it is also influenced by people who think differently from me...much like marriage. It's a checks and balances sort of thing, and helps us balance things out.

Aeri's POV is important because it does cause us to look a little closer. But that's also what makes our POV's important because it causes those outside of this country to look at the issues a bit more closely.

However, if we are considered to be a bunch of numbskulls with drool constantly dangling from our mouths, then we will not be considered a knowledgeable source. That's a crying shame.

We are intelligent people. We are logical people. And when we argue with our intellect and logic, we are considered "bashing" other people.

About freedom of speech...there are limits that will be enforced if the wrong thing is said. Someone calls me a sl*t or b*tch, there will be a consequence. Words are powerful things. Lies, spoken with the mouth or written on paper, have gotten innocent people killed.

I'm just saying, speak truth. If it's what you believe, fine, but don't break the law or disrespect other people, and be considerate enough to actually *hear* the other POV.

Yeah, today is a sad day in the world. A lot of people on both sides of this war have died. I am concerned for the troops who have been taken prisoner and their families, and for the families of Iraqis who've died.

Do I think Am military lives are more valuable than Iraqi lives? Absolutely not, and I am PROUD of the marines who have given their own lives to help bring peace...true peace...to Iraq. Even if the gov't has deceived the people and the troops, the troops are giving their lives for an honorable, noble, and life-affirming cause--to give Iraq back to the Iraqi people, so they no longer have to live in fear of starvation, of being raped or murdered, or turned into science projects of the gov't as the Jews of the Holocaust were.

Petals

Zuzus

Zorweb said that we are one with our gov'ts. I say, "Yes and no."

You are right in your comment on this. My point is that in the end we all have responsibility for our government. I did not mean to imply by any means that we all agree or stand by everything our government does. Not by a long shot. But when on throw broad sweeps of accusations and at an entire country in the manner that has been done, it cannot be said that they are only bashing a governmental entity and not the people. IMHO anyway. This is the problem with words and why they can cause problems so often. It’s hard to say things in a way that everyone will take them the way we mean them. Each of us has a different filter through which we sift words.

wthaidhy

Back to MB, if you want to build a healthy marriage relationship you NEVER attack your spouse.

If you want to build a healthy international relationship you NEVER attack another country. It’s as simple as sticking to a principle; no matter how justified you’d be to do otherwise.

If a country wants to build healthy international relationships than they should have never sold items of war to Iraq after the 1990 war. Do recall that France, Germany, Canada and many other countries were part of that coalition. There was a ceasefire and Iraq agreed to disarm. Instead they continued to build their military abilities in some areas with the help of France, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, and I think China and North Korea too.

So tell me, how concerned were those countries in maintaining good relationships with other countries, especially the USA? Their actions of providing these things to Iraq is a very clear statement of “money is more important that our international relationships”.

Those who are giving the USA a hard time over not wooing and kowtowing to these countries, why are you not also giving these countries a serious lashing for what they have done?

Or is it that the USA needs to be very careful not to get anyone angry with us, while the rest of the world can do as they please?

I’ve already asked several times why is the USA the only country expect to seek UN approval to start a war?

I am having a problem with the duplicity in all of this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aeri:
Just as every other great power that has desired to take control of the world, the United States will fall....I don't want to see it happen, but it seems like a whole new Roman empire to me....<hr /></blockquote>The US isn't trying to take over the world! We don't need any more states (there are small countries who WANT to be but we aren't accepting applications, so to say). The US is trying to make life better IN other countries, not make life better and EXPAND ours. There is a HUGE difference between the US's motives and the Roman Empire's. Besides, when the US WAS expanding their borders, didn't we BUY it from France? We didn't go to war and win it, we paid for it.

Amanda

I have been thinking for a long time of flying a certified flag (or whatever it's called...one that has to be burned if it should ever touch the ground)
Can’t say I’ve ever heard of anything like this (Certified flag or only “certain” flags can be burned]. Any American flag that has touched the ground or is no longer in good shape should be destroyed in a proper manner.

Check out Flag Etiquette

[ March 23, 2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]

Just as every other great power that has desired to take control of the world, the United States will fall....I
Quiz of the day...

Name one country the U.S. has taken control of and now runs?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris (CA123):
Name one country the U.S. has taken control of and now runs?<hr /></blockquote>Well, I could open a can of worms and say that early America annexed much of what is now the USA from Native-Americans. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I have been doing battle within myself on how to respond. I think in a time like this one has to be cautious about the words they use.

I fully support our military, and I fully support my president, I always will, no matter who that president is. Once the election has taken place, then the respect due the president is fully given by me. I do not have all of the intel info that our government and military have, they have the training to handle situations such as this and to make decisions such as this, I have none. I trust that they have good intentions and fully believe in what they are doing, right or wrong, that is their job not mine. They will answer to a higherpower if wrong, not me. The will also answer to a war crimes council if they are thought to be wrong, again that is not my job.

My big question though is this...

When do we as a nation say no to another n ation in need of our help and support?

Mexico has stock market and money problems, we GIVE them money to pull them out of it, not once, but I believe it was TWICE in recent years.

Bosnia, they ask for help, we give it.

Saudi Arabia, they need help, ask, we give it.

Kosovo, need help, we give.

the list goes on.

Yes we have played a part in all the big wars, and many of the small ones. Did we go into Germany or France when helping them and try to make their lives different or make them become a part of our country? hmmmm, doesn't look like it. We LIBERATED them for dictators and their countries are better for it.

I trust that our leaders have the knowledge needed to make the best decisions, not just for us, but for those who need our help.

If Canada were in toruble and needed our help we would be there. Same with France, Germany, etc.

Of course, helping ANY country always gets us blamed for something.

I often wonder what the rest of the world would do if we started saying NO to EVERY request for aide or assistance.

It would definately save us a bunch of money, and many lives over the years if we did say no.

Who will be paying for the rebuilding of Iraq when this is over? It won't be Iraq alone, we will be doing much to support and aide them in the rebuilding and help in making them a better nation.

We are a strong nation, and while I think our military could be treated better, at least our troops are FED and have CLOTHING and SHOES. Many of the Iraqis that surrendered were malnourished and without shoes and were not fully clothed. We, the big bad meanies we are will give them clothing and shoes and food. We will not treat them in a poor way. We do try to abide by the Geneva convention on the treatment of POW's. We would never go against the rules of war engagement and send people in to surrender then have them turn around and ambush them.

As much as it does and always has hit me as kind of funny that there are RULES for war, there really are. We abide them, our leaders have studied them, and we are up against a mad mans army that disregrads it all.

We are doing our best to only hit military targets, and now this madman is dragging women and children of his country into the military sites to use them as human shields. IS that really something that a reasonable leader would do??? Would you want this man leading YOUR country? For that matter, had he gone into exile would you have been comfortable with your country allowing him to live in YOUR country? Wiffty posted this on another thread...
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/World/saddam_profiler_030225.html

There are many anti-war and anti-american protests going on world wide, many here in our own country. I would be interested in hearing where the money has come from for these demonstrations. There are many costs involved in staging a demonstration. Any idea where we can find out who is paying for it all? I have to wonder if the money trail were followed how much is being provided by groups that have ties to terrorists. That is just my odd wonderings though. Have not heard anything to suggest it. I firmly believe that demonstrators should be peaceful in their gatherings, it just seems stupid for people to stand out there and holler about no war, etc and yet they get all riled up and end up arrested for breaking laws, harming others etc.

Aeri, can you please tell me how you came to the conclusion that when someone immagrates to the US that they have to leave their culture at the border? I would be really interested in whatever information you have that backs that up.

Oh, and the latest tally on nations in the coalition is 52.

Ok..so I lied about the last word...... It's been a boring weekend for ol'Aeri. That's probably why I decided to venture into this territory in the first place.....

FIRST of all, for all of you who are second guessing me---I didn't for one second judge the American people. Not once did I imply that they're stupid or 'drooling'. I think I mentioned that more than once. I simply brought forth my own opinion.

For those of you who say that I should be criticized because I refuse to 'see'. Well, from my perspective, YOU refuse to 'see'.

I'm sorry, I was mistaken--the US didn't break any UN resolutions when invading IRAQ, they just plainly defied the UN. If we REQUIRE the UN, and it is considered relevant, then there should be a punishment for going against them, don't you agree? Wouldn't the United States have expected the UN to punish China had they decided to invade the US? Don't think it can't happen--they've been building their army for years.

As far as the 40 nations which support the US are concerned---where were they when the UN voted on the invasion? Are they even UN nations? WHO ARE THEY? Could one of these nations be Pakistan? The newest US ally? The same country that REPEATEDLY tests it's nuclear weapons?

I'm sorry that people are stealing flags---that's terrible. I'm not against Patriotism--I believe you should have the freedom to fly your flag. By posting a sign in the window though, you're inviting strife with your neighbour. Perhaps a better idea would be to make it inaccessible.

Countries that lack freedom are a sad fact----BUT THERE ARE MANY OF THEM.....Why is the US picking on Iraq? There are DIMINISHED freedoms in Qatar as well--why is it a US ally and NOT being bombed? There are terrible inequalities and lack of freedoms in Pakistan, yet the US was quick to befriend them during the attack on Afganistan. Seems like the US government picks and chooses it's battles with no rhyme or reason. Last I heard, Osama may have been in Pakistan--so are there plans to bomb them soon?

As far as the US not WANTING to expand it's borders. Are you suggesting that the US wouldn't want full control of middle eastern oil? Surely, there are little countries wanting to be part of the US, but I'm guessing that they have absolutely NOTHING to offer the US in exchange for their inclusion...

I want to make it very clear...I feel very badly for anyone with family members in Iraq. When I hear about downed planes and dead soldiers, I feel absolutely horrible about the senseless loss of life....but Iraq is patriotic just as the US is. Their military are simply defending their nation under attack. Would you expect any less from the US?

Two wrongs don't make a right--bombing Iraq will NOT halt terrorism. Iraq is one muslim nation---and by bombing them, you're guaranteeing that other muslim nations will grow to HATE the US. THIS is not the way to calm international relations.

...and I write this as I watch the photos of POWs in Iraq. It's amazing how people are so SHOCKED and AWED at this.. POWs are a fact of war--get used to it.

Hi Everyone,

Today has been a bad day for the world. People have killed one another.

In the most terrible of ways.

I know this war is a bad deal but it beats being fed into a wood chipper feet first or raped multiple times only to have your throat slowly slit once they're done with you.

Saddam MUST GO!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aeri:
If we REQUIRE the UN, and it is considered relevant, then there should be a punishment for going against them, don't you agree? Wouldn't the United States have expected the UN to punish China had they decided to invade the US? Don't think it can't happen--they've been building their army for years.<hr /></blockquote>

The UN does a lot of good with it's humanitarian programs. But it can't really impose it's will on the States or any other country because each soverign country basically should be able to make their own decisions

<blockquote>quote:<hr />As far as the 40 nations which support the US are concerned---where were they when the UN voted on the invasion? <hr /></blockquote>

It never was taken to a vote because a couple of security council countries with veto votes threatened to veto the resolution.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Countries that lack freedom are a sad fact----BUT THERE ARE MANY OF THEM.....Why is the US picking on Iraq? <hr /></blockquote>

When President Bush spoke before the special joint session of Congress shortly after Sept 11, he said that he intended to go after terrorists and any nation that offers them safe haven.

There is little doubt that Saddam is a terrorist and that he harbours terrorists. He was offering financial rewards to the families of suicide bombers.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Two wrongs don't make a right--bombing Iraq will NOT halt terrorism. <hr /></blockquote>

Libya used to use terrorism against the US until President Reagan beat the crap out of them. Now you almost never hear about Quaddafi anymore.

Jen,
Don't know where you're from , I'm American.
I am not superior to ANYONE!

GEEZ!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm sorry, I was mistaken--the US didn't break any UN resolutions when invading IRAQ, they just plainly defied the UN. <hr /></blockquote>No they did not defy the UN. In my opinion they are merely keeping their word. The US is carrying out the provisions of UN resolution "Adopted as Resolution 1441 at Security Council meeting 4644, 8 November 2002. Surely you cannot deny that it has been a game of "you'll come in -- No, you'll get out" for twelve years.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Recognizing the threat Iraq’s non-compliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,
<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Recognizing the threat Iraq’s non-compliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,
<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations; <hr /></blockquote>

Jen,

Now there is a discussion packed with relevance and insight. I’m sure that you have convinced many by all you brought to the table.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Jen,

I'm sorry that you feel we think we're superior. We have superior defenses and such, and many of us feel we have a wonderful system of gov't under which to live.

This has absolutely nothing to do with being "superior." I can see how brandishing our might, might lead you think that, but the fact is that it's just not that way in many of our minds.

We are a benevolent society. If that makes us "goody-goodies," I'm sorry. That just makes us feel that we are sharing our blessings with others.

If someone gives food to the poor, and protects them from harm, are they acting out of superiority, or love?

Whether I'm deceived or not, I do feel that's what this country is about and support any of it's actions to fulfill that commission.

Petals

I'm thinking it may be time to have a moderator close this thread.

I didn't intend that anyone get hurt feelings from this. I just wanted to express my anger at some who were abusing their freedom of speech, and support for our troops, and sorry for the loss of life.

I have learned a lot from this thread.

Anyone think it's time to close it? If someone has something peaceable to say, I want to offer that opportunity. If there are more stabs at ANYone, American or otherwise, it's definitely time to close it.

Petals

Let's see if I have this correct. 2 posts (won't call names you can figure it out.

One endorsing porn and one Anti-American, anti-your own country. Is there anything you do like other than porn?

Jen ---

O subtle child of few words, how sad you are.

I'm an American - one of those 'breeds' of many nations who resound the demands of freedoms. My heritage here runs deep! I'm Cherokee Indian on my father's side, as well as English, Dutch, Irish, and Swede. On my mother's side, I'm English, Dutch, Irish, Scotch, Welsh, French, and way back about ten generations I have a Russian grandfather. I have friends of many nationalities, and many of them are still in their homeland countries. I don't consider myself BETTER than any other person - decended of Adam who walks the Earth. I, as do others who live all over the earth, have a heritage. Mine happens to be filled with a variety of national backgrounds and history that reads like a good novel (I know, I've researched and written much of that history). I have relatives who've fought for the freedom we Americans' now have - not single handedly, but as part of the many armies that have protected our lands from those who would take it from us. They have fought for freedom for people in other nations. They fought in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, and many other wars and police actions around the world.

Are we better than others, no. We happen to have had a taste of freedom and we WANT IT BACK. We know the luxury of having freedom of choice. We've known the luxury of walking our family and friends out to the plane door and watching them wave to us from the window of the plane. We've known the joy of taking midnight strolls along our neighborhood streets and feeling free and safe to do so. We've felt the wonder of watching our children play - safely in our yards, parks, and playgrounds.

On 911 we knew the terror of having someone outside our nation take control of an airplane and fly it into a tower that for the US was an icon of opportunity. WE lost freedoms that day that we are determined to regain!

AS stated before, if you are not for freedom, you are against it. Step out of the way. Because we are taking back what was taken from us.

At this point you are dealing with the organized reasonable power of a NATIONAL LEADER who understands that we as a NATION expect regain those freedoms... Woe is the man who comes against the people of this nation who are not part of that organized power.

Thanks for the soap box.

Jan

Slappy,
Well, I could open a can of worms and say that early America annexed much of what is now the USA from Native-Americans.
Then I could rebut with, “that wasn’t Americans. It was the English, who later became Americans!” <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris (CA123):
Then I could rebut with, “that wasn’t Americans. It was the English, who later became Americans!” <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>In New England, yes, but not in the rest of the country. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In New England, yes, but not in the rest of the country <hr /></blockquote>Well, then:
The US purchases the Louisiana Territory from France-- the territory clear through the Midwest & plains states--the Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas.

Spain had Texas, California, parts of New Mexico, Arizona.

Russia had Alaska.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm sorry, I was mistaken--the US didn't break any UN resolutions when invading IRAQ, they just plainly defied the UN.
How did they defy the U.N.? What did the U.N. as an assembly say that the U.S. went against?

As far as the 40 nations which support the US are concerned---where were they when the UN voted on the invasion?
The U.N. never voted on the invasion. But they did agree (even Iraq agreed to it) previously to this;
“Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area,“
Sorry if you don’t like it or agree with it. Iraq did.

Are they even UN nations? WHO ARE THEY?
Afghanistan*, Albania*, Australia*, Azerbaijan*, Bulgaria*, Colombia*, Czech Republic*, Denmark*, El Salvador*, Eritrea*, Estonia*, Ethiopia*, Georgia*, Hungary*, Italy*, Japan* (post conflict), South Korea, Latvia*, Lithuania*, Macedonia, Netherlands*, Nicaragua*, Philippines*, Poland*, Romania*, Slovakia*, Spain*, Turkey*, Britain*, Uzbekistan*.
*= Member state of U.N.

These are the countries that PUBLICLY support the U.S. Other countries including Germany, Spain, USSR, Netherlands, Norway are sending non-combatants (hospital ships, mine-sweepers, chemical specialists, etc.)

These are the one PUBLICLY supporting the invasion. There are others that are not public about support. Notice there are no Arab/Muslim countries in immediate area supporting it, including Kuwait & Saudi Arabia. Probably because they want to be sure that Saddam will NOT remain in power before they jump on the bandwagon. Can’t blame them at all for feeling this way.

Could one of these nations be Pakistan? The newest US ally?
Not on the list that the U.S. Sate Dept released on 18 March. I wouldn’t call them the “newest” ally. We have been friendly with Pakistan for many, many years.

The same country that REPEATEDLY tests it's nuclear weapons?
But you make it sound like the 5 times they have tested nuclear weapons is something they do constantly. Again, only 5 tests have been done by Pakistan.

By posting a sign in the window though, you're inviting strife with your neighbour.
After all this is America we are talking about. Strife, perhaps, but she is NOT inviting criminal actions.

Perhaps a better idea would be to make it inaccessible.
It’s her property and something her kids (and her) are proud to display. Why should they NOT be allowed to do it as they see fit, if it is legal and acceptable to the general public?

Countries that lack freedom are a sad fact----BUT THERE ARE MANY OF THEM
And you’ll notice quite a few that previously were ruled by dictators/iron fist govts. on the list above.

Why is the US picking on Iraq? There are DIMINISHED freedoms in Qatar as well--why is it a US ally and NOT being bombed? There are terrible inequalities and lack of freedoms in Pakistan, yet the US was quick to befriend them during the attack on Afganistan.
The U.S. is not attacking Iraq because of “terrible inequalities and lack of freedoms.” The government of Iraq is a threat to the peace and freedom of the world, not only of their of their own nation.
The government of Qatar does not support terrorism nor do they murder their own citizens by the thousands simply to test chemical weapons.

Surely, there are little countries wanting to be part of the US, but I'm guessing that they have absolutely NOTHING to offer the US in exchange for their inclusion...
Are you suggesting the U.S. would sell a statehood to a country that had something to offer?

but Iraq is patriotic just as the US is. Their military are simply defending their nation under attack.
But the U.S. is not attacking the nation. They are driving by all the Iraqi troops. If there is resistance they will fight back. Why isn’t there much resistance? Because they don’t want to fight but Hussein will shoot them if they don’t at least stand there and look military. If Iran was to attack, I believe you would see every single Iraqi stand up and fight to the death.

Two wrongs don't make a right--bombing Iraq will NOT halt terrorism.
Why do you think this is solely about terrorism. It is perhaps a bonus, but it is about disarming a nation that agreed ANYTHING could be done to assure disarmament.

Iraq is one muslim nation---and by bombing them, you're guaranteeing that other muslim nations will grow to HATE the US.
How? It doesn’t matter to the U.S. if they are muslim.

[ March 23, 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lor (Lor):
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />In New England, yes, but not in the rest of the country <hr /></blockquote>Well, then:
The US purchases the Louisiana Territory from France-- the territory clear through the Midwest & plains states--the Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas.

Spain had Texas, California, parts of New Mexico, Arizona.

Russia had Alaska.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>And they all got the land from?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

In New England, yes, but not in the rest of the country.

Slappy is right, the USA had the policy of “Manifest Destiny”. It was the belief that it was destiny that the USA would stretch from the Atlantic to the Pacific. This was accomplished by many means. Some land was purchased:

--- The Louisiana Land Purchase from France as Napoleon needed the money to fight his war with the English.

-- Alaska, a then ‘worthless’ frozen land, was sold the USA by Russia.

--- Mexican American War won Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and California.

--- In addition the USA has four territories: Marshall Islands and Samoa from WWII, US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico from Spanish American War – 1890 something.

Of course there was the pesky problem of the American Indians who still lived in these lands claimed by France, Spain and Russia. So there was there was a lot of fighting that went on with the Indians.

Let’s remember that until very recently territorial issues in this world were usually settled by war. The USA did not invent it, nor it’s use as a tool.

There were the great wars spoken of in the Bible and the Koran.

There was the Mongolian horde lead by Genghis Khan, the Vikings and on and on. They swept over large territories fighting, raping, pillaging. But they never really tried to rule the people.
Every great nation/empire/whatever has used it to conquer large territories: China, Greece, Rome, Spain, France, England and so forth.

I’m sure that there are many that we no longer have any records of.

These conquering empires tried to rule all lands that they conquered. My bet is that in the end that was a large part of their down fall. They spread themselves too thin and the peoples they conquered did not love them (for the most part).
Let’s not forget that Viet Nam was started by the Vietnamese fighting against their colonial rulers.. France. (The USA entered the war only after the French left, at the hest of the South Vietnamese.)

Except for the lands that are now the United States and its territories, the USA has chosen not to keep and govern the many countries it has liberated. Instead the USA has always sought to get the countries back on a peaceful footing with a good economy and let the locals govern themselves. No the picture of a evil empire attempting to control the world… hardly.

I just checked this out, and this thread has precisely (well, I'm not sure just how precise it is) 28,463 words and 65 pages in Word.

[ March 23, 2003, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]

Hey Chris,
I was supporting you...that it wasn't the Americans, but English, plus other European conquering nations that first encroached against the tribal nations that inhabited the US.

Nevermind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I found some interesting testimonies from former human shields and Iraqi citizens:

Telegraph

UPI

Guardian

[ March 23, 2003, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Crayongirl ]

Some of the words here explain very clearly why so many are having problems in their relationships at home.

Rude comments, name calling, attitudes... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

How is this helping us? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I know Lor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Just having a bit o’ fun!

Chris,

About Old Glory, I thought that the flag had to be sewn and embroidered in order to be a "true" flag. I don't consider those plastic things we got as kids that would never stay on the stick as a "true" flag. I mean, you'd have 'em five minutes and they'd fall on the ground...would you have to burn them 5 min after you got it?

I am wearing one of those Old Navy $5 tees right now that has a flag on it, but gov't regulation says that the flag shall not be used in any advertisement in any form.

Anyway, I meant one that I would treat as a "true" flag. But I suppose I should've treated the one that was taken as one. Perhaps the person who took it was angry that we weren't obeying the regulations. I know where H works, they have gotten plenty of flack, and they way they were flying the flag was correct. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Anyway, I checked out that site and others. Thanks for posting it. But, if you could answer my question about the plastic ones, that might save me grief in the future should I come to a time of having to decide whether or not to get one, worrying about it hitting the ground. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Petals

Hi Zuzu's Petals! Thank you for posting this. I am a Disabled Veteran of the first Gulf War - so I'm calling this conflict "Operation Desert Storm II" - it is a 'finishing up' of what they would NOT let us do the first time. However, let me tell you, I did him worse damage than he did to me. We trashed over 200 of his fine armored vehicles, took over 300 EPWs (Enemy Prisoners Of War) and totally obliterated a Brigade of Tanks. I personally blew up one of his Water Supply Tanks as well as a Field Mess Kitchen.
Saddam - you are finished.
So, OK, I have the Persian Gulf Illness. I look at this War as unfinished business and we have the finest military in the world to do the job. The Brits are a fine ally - one I'm proud to have served with also, in Operation Joint Endeavour in '95 to '96. The Australians are good too - and I think all the 'coalition of the willing' are a bunch of gutless nations who are jumping on the wagon because they have nothing to lose now... As usual, it's the US & England to take the lead...
One of these days, perhaps our Elected Leaders will wake up and tell the rest of the folks (like Germany, Russia, France, Iran, Turkey, Canada, Mexico, etc. etc. etc) to go take a long walk off a short pier!
I remain, SGT Harold Thornburg, US Army (Retired)
Thank you!
God Bless America - and every single military person in the Gulf right now while He's at it.

McDonalds got nailed a few years ago in some muslim country because they put verses of the Koran/Qur'an on the hamburger wrappers and the wrappers eventually get tossed into the trash. So it is like throwing the word of god in the trash.

In my humble opinion, the U.S. public treats the flag the same way way in the U.S. The T-shirts, the towels you sit on and wipe your a$$ after a shower, the hats, the advertisements, etc. People want to show their patriotism (great) but they end up disrespecting the flag.

The little plastic flags? A flag is a flag. Send ‘em to the American Legion, I guess?

What is 'The Kingdom of Caerlon' ?????

It's back... Kool

A few weeks after 9/11, there was some big company (don’t remember which) that told all the employees to take down the flags on their desks which had sprung up because the company was afraid they would make some people feel that their own countries/religions were less than American.

This was widely publicized and a really big stink. It was withdrawn soon after because it was a really stupid rule & the company was getting a LOT of flack in the national press.

Okay, Chris,

From now on, I will refuse the little plastic flags, so I don't have to burn them, or give them to the Am Legion, 2 min after I get them.

I will buy only the finely sewn ones because then I will know how to treat it. I won't buy anymore flag t-shirts. I will be kind to the flag to which I make my children, who are proud to do so, pledge their allegiagce.

Now, to the rest of you still with us...who's here btw?

Do you think the same will happen to the Oscars thread? What has that to do with EN's?

Petals

Okay, that last comment was nothing against Murphy and the other mods. I was just asking.

I think Murphy handled this well and s/he sent me an email telling exactly what his/her plans were...because I asked him/her to let me know.

NoteBookDude,

Excellent stuff. Thank you for sharing. (That is this thread right? I'm feeling kinda loopy right now.)

Petals

[ March 24, 2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]

I posted, on the Oscars thread, something that I found interesting. Received it in an email.

You know, some thing hit me today. Thinking of the POW's and the guy's whose bodies were shown on Arab TV. Those soldiers are over there because they are willing to take the bullets and God only knows what so that we don't have to do it.

I’ve been around the military much of my life.

My father fought in WWII and was on the Batan Death March in the Philippines. He was a POW for 3.5 years. He stayed in the service 25 years, and then went to work for an agency I won’t name. He was murdered (assassinated is really a better word) while on duty.

My husband served in Viet Nam. Then stayed in afterwards. He served much of his time on the boarder between East and West Germany. (Today one of his very special possession is a piece of the Berlin wall. I put it in a shadow box with a photo people taking down the wall handful of crumbly plaster by handful. But really the dismantling of that wall started years before anyone started to chip away at the physical wall.

I served in the Army for 4 years. Right after Viet Nam… So I never fought a battle with weapons. I was in G2 (Intelligence) in Europe. I saw a lot of what we now call terrorism. One thing I notices about every single terrorist we had a rap sheet on, every last one of them was a criminal before they ever had a political opinion. Then some political group would recruit them to a life of crime with a cause… to disrupt life, to hate the system (no matter what the system was).

I’ve mentioned a few times here what my childhood was like because it seems that my dad was very often stationed in a country about to explode in a revolution. So I’ve seen the thing terrorists do first hand. I’ve felt the very real terror of it as a child, taking my turn to guard our family compound. I was pretty good with a rifle and a 30.6 as a child. One of the reasons I have such strong feelings about our men and women fighting this war is that sometimes war is the only way to arrive at peace.

The treat of terrorism is real. The treat of Saddam’s regime supporting terrorists is real. But even if Saddam was not supporting terrorists and not making weapons of mass destruction I’d support going in after him. Why? Because he, his sons and his regime are some of the most despicable humans who have ever walked this earth. I hate to even call them humans.

Sometimes I think that the reason we have never been sure that Hitler died is because he did not. He was the devil incarnate. He just faded away to come back as the next despicable leader. A leader that leads other humans down the road of tyranny.. Actually just plain murderer, rapist, torturer, etc. The hells must be very busy this century, as we certainly have seen our share of such.

Sure there are many other countries that are as bad or worse than Iraq… China and North Korea come to mind. I know that some say it’s just not our job. (He only kills and tortures his own people, it’s no our business.). They say that we cannot be the policemen of the world. Well we are not in this alone there are 40 other countries that vocally give their support and many others who do quietly as to not upset their population. Why cannot the world police itself?

Would you allow someone like Saddam to live in your neighborhood? This earth is our neighborhood. I do not wonder why a coalition of nations is going in to finally get rid of him. What I wonder is why did it take so long? Why was he allowed to torture and murder his people for so long by the world community? Why was he allowed for this last 12 years to build a bigger arsenal of WMD?

I am not angry that we are in Iraq. I am angry that the world community lets these disgusting regimes go unchecked. Even gives them legitimacy by recognizing them as a government, by appointing them to things like the UN Committee on human rights? (What a$$ thought it was even acceptable to have Iraq on a committee of human rights? That’s like making a known child molester in charge of a children’s nursery. The UN has made itself irrelevant. It’s more of a social club than viable world organization.) What I’d love to see is for the world community to for a coalition to get ride of all such leaders. One that put nations states on notice that such things will not be tolerated.

What I think is that we should be protesting is ambivalence and lack of moral fiber in our world leaders and many of the people in this world. How could France, Germany and Russia supply that madman with more weaponry and then oppose ousting him? You know how? Because they could care less if he is a despot, they are making money off his regime. Because they do not want the world to know what they have been doing while touting themselves as superior to the USA. That is all that matters to them.

The collision forces and we have some very brave and sacrificing young men and women over there. I’m not sure that as volunteers they were totally aware that they put their young lives on the line as they have. I know that I was not when I joined. It hit me my first night in basic training… trying to sleep on the top bunk with diagrams of M16’s, M60’s and other weapons that I’d soon be learning to breakdown, clean reassemble and fire. But I have no doubt our soldiers that they will meet the challenge they have with honor now. I’ve never before been struck by the magnitude of the sacrifice, even when it was around me for so much of my life. Maybe it’s because I now have teenagers and I see them in the young faces on TV.

Glad this thread is back as I was enjoying the back and forth.

I had a thought last night after reading that there's a distinct possibility that Russia had sold some interesting items to Iraq.

Is it possible that the UN members so adamant about vetoing any action against Iraq's regime might have been a little scared because they knew of arms sales to Iraq and how embarrassing it might be if that were discovered?

Crayongirl,

Uh, in short…. YES!!! I think you figured it out.

The US gov and the press has had info for quite some time that France, Germany, Russia and the Ukraine have been supplying Iraq. In some cases it was sent through China and North Korea.

The first day we went into Iraq, the French came out and said some thing like “Uh, gee don’t be too surprised if you find some illegal things we’ve supplied to Iraq.” It was odd because that report seems to have disappeared.. do not recall which services I saw it on.

Do note that those are amongst the loudest protestors to a coalition going into Iraq.

I have a hunch about why the USA has finally has come out so definitely about this. If you will recall we are now mostly in control of the Iraqi ports. We also captured the Ba’ath party headquarters. I recall that US forces flew at least one helicopter full of Iraqi paperwork out of there. Now what sort of papers do you suppose were maintained at a port? Shipping documents? Contract? Proof of financial exchanges?

My bet is that was a major haul of intelligence.

I think we are about to find out exactly what type of friends those countries really are.

Zorweb,

Good, then it isn't just my imagination! LOL! Odd, I'm sitting watching the news and reading my beloved blogs and gee...didn't Saddam say he had no chemical weapons? But, by some miracle, his troops are planning to use the non-existant chemical weapons once we are in B'dad!

I read an article earlier today (from a French newspaper) that the ricin (sp?) found on Le Metro (I think) has been traced to possible Al Quaeda members who may have trained in Iraq. Go figure.

I know you were so shocked to find all this out.

Here's an article you might find intersting about the French.

Just want everyone to know I'm still reading, but I've just added a major project to my To Do list so that I have less time to discuss this in depth.

I hope that everyone who was part of the original discussion will come back to this thread, and we can express our feelings as we watch the war unfold.

I think it will be interesting to see reaction as we make new discoveries or as things happen.

Particularly, Aeri's POV, and those who agree with her, interests me and there is a reason why. First, what if what I believe is wrong? (I will be furious, but...). Second, my Dad who is a Rush Limbaugh listener always tells me this lopsided stuff, and I've heard differing reports on the news, only to hear that my Daddy was right...and I doubted him, thinking that if Satan were to run for Pres as a republican, my Dad would vote for him. Now I'm not so sure. I think my Dad is well-informed (did I fall into that adult child trap of believing I'm smarter than my parents? Ugh. I hope not).

Do I think that Aeri will be convinced as the war goes on? Don't know. Do I want Aeri to be convinced? Only if it turns out to be true what the US citizens are saying. I don't want anyone, including myself, to believe lies.

"...the truth shall set you free."

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Good, then it isn't just my imagination! LOL! Odd, I'm sitting watching the news and reading my beloved blogs and gee...didn't Saddam say he had no chemical weapons? But, by some miracle, his troops are planning to use the non-existant chemical weapons once we are in B'dad! <hr /></blockquote>You mean these old things, he just happended to find them tucked away in the closet collecting dust (insert sarcasm).

[ March 25, 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Sue with hope ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zorweb:
I know you were so shocked to find all this out.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks for the link! I've been watching/reading French views on all of this and...well, sometimes what they are saying and what their media is reporting leaves me speechless. Bias in the media in the US? We certainly don't have the corner in that market!

Need to clarify one of my previous posts. The ricin was found in a locker in a Paris railway station, not Le Metro.

For another intersting site - try muslimpundit.com

As well, I found this from Blix's report that wasn't widely (ever?) pulicized:

UPI

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"UNMOVIC has credible information that the total quantity of BW (biological
weapons) agent in bombs, warheads and in bulk at the time of the Gulf War was
7,000 liters more than declared by Iraq. This additional agent was most likely
all anthrax. ... Iraq's claim that anthrax production ceased at the end of
1990 does not seem plausible. ... seems highly probable that the destruction
of bulk agent, including anthrax (at the Al Hakam site) did not occur. Based
on all the available evidence, the strong presumption is that about 10,000
liters of anthrax was not destroyed and may still exist."
<hr /></blockquote>Things that make you go hmmmm...

Wanted to passs on this letter in case you haven't seen it yet.
But first, another comment though.

I don't watch much tv, but early on in the war when the first casualties were announced, there was a black man who lost his son. He was screaming at President Bush and said he hoped he was satisfied, as this was his only son. The reporters were just eating it up.

First, thus far, All of our troops have been VOLUNTARY. They signed up, nobody dragged them. This is what they VOLUNTEERED to do. They are totally AWARE of the risks. Second, although it is a tragedy for that particular family to lose their son, that father DISHONORED his son on public tv. I was so ashamed of his behavior, for both him and the son, who died for this country, offering up the maximum that he had.

anyway, here is the letter from one of our soldiers.

**************************
Hi All,
> This is an e-mail from Heidi Stephens, she's my friend Spencer's
>little Sister. Mom, Tara, and Aaron, you know her from the wedding in
>Spain. She is in the Army and has been in Turkey for some time now. She
>got married at the end of December and was married for all of 2 weeks
>before getting re-activated in the army (she had server her 4 years and was
>going on inactive duty) and deployed to Turkey. Her new Husband Gary was
>sent to Iraq. Gary is in camp Pennsylvania, you may have heard of that
>lately, it's the one that the idiot grenaded his CO's in. He and Heidi
>were on the phone to each other when that happened. Anyway, here is an
>e-mail that she wrote to some family and friends and asked to forward on.
> It's a window into the life of one of the hundreds of thousands of our
>troops over there. I can't help but to watch CNN all of the time now, I
>have 5 friends in this and I hope that I never see one of them on CNN
>unless it's on a flight home.
>
>Fly your flags proud!
**********
GOD BLESS THE USA
>
> Family and Friends here are some of my thoughts...
> I, being a soldier and "serving" in this war with my husband ever more
>serving in this war, I ask that you do pass this along. Please pray for
>the soldiers, the POWs, and their friends and families.
> Being over here and so close to what is really happening has put things
>into perspective for me. I am living in substandard living conditions. I
>have taken a shower 6 times in the last month. As I spend the 3rd month of
>my marriage to my wonderful husband one country separating us I ask of you
>to keep praying. If you know a soldier pray for him or her by name asking
>that God bless them with peace and that they are doing well. Everyone here
>is on edge and all our nerves are exposed. So please pray that we can be
>so blessed and we just drive on and share God's love and peace.
> I sit here and watch TV and see all these protests and Hollywood
>Producers and movie stars and teens and many others fighting against us. I
>know that they believe what they are doing is in favor of us soldiers but
>as we sit here in harms way FARTHER away from our lives and families than
>any of the could ever imagine we are growing more and more angry with these
>protesters.
> The right that they have to protest is defended by servicemembers giving
>up their rights, freedom, and unfortunately their lives. However they are
>"giving up" their lives. Nobody I know likes war. Not one of us over
>here. However, we choose by raising our right hand to defend our country.
>Right now we are defending the world and for some reason nobody knows this.
> I heard on CNN that the guy who one the award the other night said (I
>paraphrase) That president Bush is sending "us" to fight this war.
>However, this guy who is sitting on his academy award and millions of
>dollars has NOTHING to do with this war. He has no idea what it is like to
>get married and then within weeks be ripped apart from his spouse who is
>closer to battle than you wnat to think about and you are closer to battle
>than he wants to imagine. He has no idea what it is like to not have a hot
>meal in over 30 days. He has no idea what it is like to live in a
>warehouse with no heat, lights amongst th
> e rats, birds and fungus growing on the walls. No he goes home to the
>comfort of his home every night. Us soldiers we knew what we were getting
>into. We don't need some millionaires or teenagers to try to get us out of
>this. WE decided to defend our country. We didn't ask for your help to
>get us out of this. WE don't need your help. WE are fully ready for
>anything that comes our way. We can carry more weight on our backs,
>freezing (or sweating) in the rain or sand. WE can move out and drive on
>working 7 days a week getting 4-5 hours of sleep and we can do this for the
>very rights all the protesters take for granted. I sit here in the combat
>zone, i sit here ready to defend and take offensive stance. To defend all
>the world from Terror. Remember September 11th. That is what we are
>fighting against. The ones who don't know better claim we are here for
>OIL. Get smart. Think about us, who are ready and willing to give up our
>lives. Service members don't lose their
> lives, we give them up for the rest of you americans who aren't
>supporting us but are protesting against us. We see you! WE see you all
>the way over here on CNN, just like you see us on CNN. I ask that you stop
>protesting and start supporting us. Don't protest this war. Support the
>troops. WE are not in here to kill innocent people, we are here to fight
>for what is right. If we can remember back to Sept 10th. There was no
>conflict, that is our goal. WE dont want our countrymen running out and
>getting tarps and bottled water so that they can survive if America is
>attacked, we need to eliminate the terrorists! WE are doing this for you!
>Our President knows what he is doing. He also is a Christian and seeks the
>Lord for advice. Millions of people pray for him daily. I suggest instead
>of protesting, lets pray for our leaders, our troops and their family
>members.
> One more point. Peace doesn't mean that there is no war. Peace is when
>we are not afraid to go to the shopping center. Peace is when there is no
>terror. For us to have Peace we MUST ELIMINATE the terrorists! So keep
>raising your fingers in peace, because that is what we are going to
>accomplish. People will die in this fight for peace, that is the way it
>works. However, we are defending the peace you long for! So Please allow
>us to work for peace and stop protesting. It really is a hard pill to
>swallow to see so many of you against this war.
> In Gods Love I write this from one Combat Zone thousands of miles away
>from my husband in another combat zone. TAke the time to pray. Pray for
>us, our leaders, our country, our world, and for peace!
> God Bless all of you. Please pass this on so others know how a soldier
>feels.
>
> Heidi Stephens
> Captain, US ARMY

Wow adrift,

That was terrific. Thank you for posting that.

Here is another one:
*************************
Subject: Letter from a soldier in Kuwait

VERY TOUCHING LETTER....
I am personally so touched by this article; as a mother, and as an American citizen. Be it as it may, just as this young soldier is entitled to express his strong patriotism and conviction, for me, those who protest the war have the same freedom to express their sentiments as so long as the exchange of opinions is conducted in a civil way.

====================================================================

Subject: Letter from soldier in Kuwait

A California mother whose son is right now in Kuwait poised to knock Saddam's block off, wrote her son asking how he would feel if she joined
other relatives of service members in an anti-war demonstration in Hollywood last month.

After reading her son's response, she elected not to participate.
*************************************************************************

Dear Mom:

It's really your decision to march if you want to or not. You are the one who has to decide if what we are doing out here is right or not. My opinion is not yours. I do, however, have things I would like for you and Grandma and everyone else at home to know.

I am a United States soldier. I was sworn to defend my country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. People may not agree with the things we are ordered to do. I would like to address those people by telling them that
terrorism is not only a threat to us as Americans, but to many other innocent people in the world.

What type of country would we be if we didn't defend the rights and freedoms of others, not because they're Americans, but how about just
because they're human? We live in a country where people feel secure with their daily lives. They do business like usual and don't worry about the
thought of terrorism actually happening to them. The people of 9-11 thought the same thing. We now know that it can happen to anyone at any
time. Yet as Americans we're afraid of losing our soldiers to defend our security.

I can only speak for myself when I say that my life is an easy expense to ensure that my family and friends can live in peace. I strongly believe
in what we are doing and wish you were here to see for yourselves the honor and privilege that American soldiers aboard this ship are feeling,
knowing that we are going to be a part of something so strong and so meaningful to the safety of our loved ones. Then you would know what
this potential war is about.

We will stand tall in front of terrorism and defeat it. We as soldiers are not afraid of what may happen. We are only afraid of Americans not
being able to understand why we are here. I ask for your courage as Americans to be strong for us; I ask for your understanding in what
we believe is right. I ask for your support in what we are sworn to do: defend our country and the life of all.

We will succeed in our task and will end the threat of terrorism in our back yard. We will also end the threat of terrorism in our neighbors'. We have to remind ourselves of what this country stands for: life, liberty
and justice for all. In order to maintain those rights we have to stop the threat of terrorism.

I am proud to be here. I will be coming home, but not until I know that it's going to be safe for all Americans and for everyone I love. My
family is first. My country is where they live. I will defend it.

Lonnie J. Lewis
Navy corpsman
C Co. 1/4 WPN PLT
UIC 39726
FPO AP 966139726

P.S. Mom, please send this to everyone who has a hard time understanding why we are here. Ask the paper to put what I've said in a column so that
others will know why we are here and what we are here for.

I love you all and will be home soon. I left my address so that if anyone feels like writing to let me know how they feel, they can.

Powell Quote

When in England at a fairly large conference,

Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury

if our plans for Iraq were just an example of

empire building by George Bush.

He answered by saying that, "Over the years, the

United States has sent many of its fine young men

and women into great peril to fight for freedom

beyond our borders. The only amount of land we

have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those

that did not return."

It became very quiet in the room.

Adrift,

I thought about that letter all night. Wow!

I think I'll send it to my dad.

Thank you for keeping this thread alive.

Others,

I wanted to share this site.

http://www.billoreilly.com/index.jsp

and this one

http://aolsvc.intellivu.aol.com/mainb.asp?fnum=298

Interesting POV.

Petals

I went to the site and read it. Good article.

I found it interesting as in yesterday’s Pentagon briefing Tori Clark showed a few clips of Iraqi citizens either tortured or killed (gassed) by Saddam. Apparently much of the worldwide press cut away from the clips. Their reasoning? It was irrelevant and they felt used by the Pentagon in an attempt to spread anti-Saddam propaganda. Yet how many of these very same news agencies are showing daily the propaganda from Saddam’s regime of civilians supposedly killed by the US bombardments? In two markets where it is more likely that the ordinance that hit those markets for from Iraqi anit-gun aircraft missiles then from anything the coalition is dropping… the damage is too small to have been caused by what the USA is dropping. They are also not showing the many, many civilians (read human shields) being killed by the pro-Saddam fighters.

So who is using the media? Let’s see, it’s ok for Saddam to do so. But oh so terrible when the USA tries to remind the world of Saddam’s atrocities.

Opposing viewpoints:

One of my family members, a democrat, thinks that we should make Iraq one of our states. Ha! Is that not funny?

Another family member, a republican, thinks US military should drop leaflets on Baghdad saying that the city will be levelled and the citizens should leave. Hmm...I don't think so. First, the Iraqi military has been snatching up the leaflets we have dropped. Second, even if the civilians were to read the leaflets, what's to say the military would let them leave the city?

Just thought I'd pass along some more thoughts.

Petals

I had a few moments to read through this thread today and I decided to add a few more viewpoints of mine...in no particular order:

I feel intense pity for the members of the U.S. Military--they have been bamboozelled by media, government and their own families into believing that what they are doing is just.

Contrary to popular notion on this thread--I am NOT anti-American. American people are the most patriotic in the world and that, coupled with a honest government is a great thing. I do disagree with *blind* patriotism, however. I believe that nothing should be trusted or believed in "just because". This is what is so frustrating about most of the Western world---we're a media driven society--we depend on news agencies whose purposes are to make headlines, to tell us what we should believe in. We forget that most media outlets have about as much interest in the *truth* of these matters than the National Enquirer. Just as the 'rags', CNN must sell airtime as well and ratings are made with sensational stories...

How many Americans and Canadians are actively researching this war over and above the newspaper and CNN accounts of what is happening? I've been called paranoid in my views---if paranoia means that I read *everything* on the subject and compare viewpoints, then call me paranoid. I seek the truth.

We've been hearing a lot about embedded reporters. Has anyone actually considered *why* the military would allow reporters among them? It seems absolutely frivolous to me---if not stupid, to have untrained civilians among the soldiers, getting underfoot, leaking important information and generally being a security risk, so why does the U.S. government allow this? To me, the answer is simple---How would YOU control the media if you were launching a war that most of the world objected to? My first idea would be to convince media outlets to have journalists "embedded" into the military---WHY? Because media outlets will jump on the opportunity to be on the front lines. The moment the prospect of higher ratings enters the picture, those media outlets will be more than happy to sign any contracts that *LIMITS* their ability to broadcast potentially damning footage which may change the popular opinion of the war back home in the US.

I chuckled recently while watching CNN--a school was raided and inside it was reported that the US soldiers had found grenades and weapons. Interestingly enough, it was reported that most were made in ....accck.....*FRANCE*.....imagine that! Too bad they did find a stockpile of the weapons that the United STates supplied to them in 1979 at the head of the Iran/Iraq war...

I think it might be interesting for all those Americans who believe that this war is about the freedom of the Iraqi people to comment on the following:

Supposing you were living happily, with your family and friends in a country that was your home for centuries, muddling through your daily life, putting up with crappy government and elections. Elections where you said to yourself "I'll just vote republican, I don't like anyone else on the ballot"...feeling as if you really *didn't* have a choice....and all of a sudden, some nation decides to invade the United States in order to "free" you....would you *NOT* try to protect what you own, your family and your neighbours? Would it matter that your government stinks? Would you not seek to protect yourself and all that you've worked for? How important would the future be to you? How many of you can honestly say, you'd submit to the invading forces and just say "OH, we're so glad you're here to save us with your guns, bunker busters and cruise missles---I was really getting sick of voting Rebuplican". My guess is that not many people will see it that way---when it comes to life---no one is patriotic enough to say---kill my children, my neighbours and bomb my home, if it means you're ousting the government..... This, I believe, is the primary reason why the Iraqi people continue to fight for their nation---it's not about government---people are people the world over and it's all about surviving. As long as the United States government can convince you that somehow blowing up an entire country to "free" them is just, you'll continue to vote and support George W. Bush and he'll just become more powerful. Remember everyone, that 'good old boy' from the south that you elected isn't a 'good old boy' anyways---he's the rich, pampered son of a former President...someone who hasn't truly faught for anything in his life...What the hell does he know about the suffering of the Iraqi people?

Last, but not least---in my travels on the web this morning, I found an interesting article about the Gulf War in 1991.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> July 25, 1990 - Presidential Palace - Baghdad

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - I have direct instructions from President Bush to improve our relations with Iraq. We have considerable sympathy for your quest for higher oil prices, the immediate cause of your confrontation with Kuwait. (pause) As you know, I lived here for years and admire your extraordinary efforts to rebuild your country. We know you need funds. We understand that, and our opinion is that you should have the opportunity to rebuild your country. (pause) We can see that you have deployed massive numbers of troops in the south. Normally that would be none of our business, but when this happens in the context of your threat s against Kuwait, then it would be reasonable for us to be concerned. For this reason, I have received an instruction to ask you, in the spirit of friendship - not confrontation - regarding your intentions: Why are your troops massed so very close to Kuwait's borders?

Saddam Hussein - As you know, for years now I have made every effort to reach a settlement on our dispute with Kuwait. There is to be a meeting in two days; I am prepared to give negotiations only this one more brief chance. (pause) When we (the Iraqis) meet (with the Kuwaitis) and we see there is hope, then nothing will happen. But if we are unable to find a solution, then it will be natural that Iraq will not accept death.

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - What solutions would be acceptab le?

Saddam Hussein - If we could keep the whole of the Shatt al Arab - our strategic goal in our war with Iran - we will make concessions (to the Kuwaitis). But, if we are forced to choose between keeping half of the Shatt and the whole of Iraq (i.e., in Saddam s view, including Kuwait ) then we will give up all of the Shatt to defend our claims on Kuwait to keep the whole of Iraq in the shape we wish it to be. (pause) What is the United States' opinion on this?

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America. (Saddam smiles)

On August 2, 1990 four days later, Saddam's massed troops invade and occupy Kuwait. _____

Baghdad, September 2, 1990, U.S. Embassy

One month later, British journalists obtain the the above tape and transcript of the Saddam - Glaspie meeting of July 29, 1990. Astoun ded, they confront Ms. Glaspie as she leaves the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad.

Journalist 1 - Are the transcripts (holding them up) correct, Madam Ambassador?(Ambassador Glaspie does not respond)

Journalist 2 - You knew Saddam was going to invade (Kuwait ) but you didn't warn him not to. You didn't tell him America would defend Kuwait. You told him the opposite - that America was not associated with Kuwait.

Journalist 1 - You encouraged this aggression - his invasi on. What were you thinking?

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - Obviously, I didn't think, and nobody else did, that the Iraqis were going to take all of Kuwait.

Journalist 1 - You thought he was just going to take some of it? But, how could you? Saddam told you that, if negotiations failed , he would give up his Iran (Shatt al Arab waterway) goal for the Whole of Iraq, in the shape we wish it to be. You know that includes Kuwait, which the Iraqis have always viewed as an historic part of their country!

Journalist 1 - America green-lighted the invasion. At a minimum, you admit signaling Saddam that some aggression was okay - that the U.S. would not oppose a grab of the al-Rumeilah oil field, the disputed border strip and the Gulf Islands (including Bubiyan) - the territories claimed by Iraq?

(Ambassador Glaspie says nothing as a limousine door closed behind her and the car drives off.)
<hr /></blockquote>Wake up everyone--that was your government talking--what caused the U.S. to not take diplomatic action to end the standoff between Kuwait and Iraq when they were made aware? Why did they not voice their intention to protect Kuwait? I think the quote speaks for itself.

Perhaps someone would like to enlighten me as to why back only 13 years ago, your Ambassador was diplomatically discussing plans to improve relations with Iraq...Hussein was President then, as he is now ----were the people *MORE* free then?

I think you should ask yourselves---if your government had an ulterior motive for attacking Iraq in 1991, how can you be sure that they don't have one now? How can you justify THIS war, knowing that it's based on what wasn't *resolved* in the previous war? Does the average American feel that questioning this is unpatriotic? Has the government brainwashed you to that point?

I await my flamings.

[ April 07, 2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: aeri ]

An interesting article from Great Britain:

http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,882517,00.html

Interesting article Aeri.

From what it says, it seems that the countries who oppose going into Iraq do so to protect their own oil interests. Some of them want to protect their cheap, preferred contracts with Iraq for oil. Others, like Russia, want to prevent Iraq from producing more oil and therefore bringing down oil prices.

Perhaps when pointing fingers at countries for protecting their own interests, its’ wise to look at how each country is doing thins. The USA is NOT the only country needing to look out for itself.

As for the USA fighting this war to grab Iraqi oil, this last week the USA went to the UN to request that they restart the oil-for-food program. It’s a good thing that the Coalition preserved the oil wells. It will lessen the suffering of the Iraqi people. And hopefully soon they will finally be getting the benefit of their great wealth.

Too back some countries want to keep Iraq in it’s current state, with sections that keep their oil prices and production down for their own purposes. Too bad these countries feel it’s ok to let the Iraqi people suffer as they have so that they can benefit.

As for the weapons found in Iraq this last week, do recall that the weapons from the USA predate the sanctions. The French weapons were sold AFTER the sanctions and therefore violate UN sections. But I am sure you do not want to pay any heed to that, as it does not support your view of the USA and the greatest evil.

If you look at every action of every other country in the world and good, and all actions of the USA as evil… then you are very anti-USA. I have yet to hear you say one good thing about the USA.. you only show contempt and dislike for us.

Our soldiers do not need your misguided pity.

But then again you are the ONLY, the one and only, person in this entire world who reads the news and keeps up with current events.

[ April 08, 2003, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: zorweb ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Zuzus_Petals:
("And now for something completely different" from my other thread...)

Perhaps the more accurate title would be "I'm proud to be a US citizen." But I like the song by Lee Greenwood, so...

I've got something to say. This is the only site I know where I might air some of my opinions (though I will try to keep the most controversial ones to myself).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
War or no war, I am proud to be a citizen of this great, beautiful and God blessed country. Democrats or no democrats, I am proud of my homeland. (JK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

I am proud of the fact that we have freedom of speech, that many use to disagree with the current administration. I hope they revel in it because Iraqis cannot at this time.

Do I think there were better ways to overthrow Saddam Hussein's regime? There are other ways, but how effective would they be? I don't think they'd be effective at all, because the turnover would be slow and create civil unrest, IMO. Kind of like taking out a drug lord. The underlords scramble and kill each other, vying for power. Uh-huh. I could see that if the US sanctioned snipers to take out individual officials.

Is this a unilateral US maneuver, wanting to establish some sort of American power over the rest of the world? Huh? Let me just say that I don't know but I hope not.

I hope our troops are truly there to take Iraq away from Satan...er Saddam and his cohorts, and give it back to the Iraqi people, who will give out freedom to all, including (and especially) women.

If they are there for other reasons besides undermining those who would come to our country and deface it and destroy so many innocent lives that no war could equal the loss, then I will join those protesting the US government's actions.

Until I hear of this being a case of "blood for oil", I will join my Iraqi-American brothers and sisters who cry "Down with Saddam Hussein!"

Sincerely,

Zuzus_Petals<hr /></blockquote>

Here's my $.02 worth here.
I was there in Operation Desert Shield and Operation Desert Storm I. I was with the Infantry and Artillery in a Command Vehicle - I was the driver. I'll never forget the first night we hit the Republican Guard - took over 300 EPWs (Enemy Prisoner of War) and destroyed 128 of their famed Russian Tanks.
99 hours it was all over - we were ready to roll into Baghdad on Day 3 of the War - and they told us, "No, you go into Kuwait." So we did.
To me, this war - Operation Desert Storm II is UNFINISHED BUSINESS. I do not like war. I think it hurts so many people, but it's sometimes a necessary evil when there are those (like Saddam, Hitler, etc.) who will NOT listen to the Voice of Reason.
I am not bragging or asking any sympathy here - just wanted to add a few comments to this.
RIGHT NOW - my son is in Iraq - near Al Nasaryah with the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Unit. I pray for him and every soldier in the Coalition forces over there.
I hope they don't get gassed like my unit did. Every single one of us came back sick - real sick. I was thrown out of the Army on Medical Disability. Can't get a job anywhere, so I live on Gov't Pension.
I am not bitter, but I say this: if I had to do it all over again I would. I am proud of my Military Service in the US Army and very proud to be an American.
God bless America and every single person in the Coalition Forces over there. May a speedy victory be ours, to end this suffering and misery and to help the Iraqi people rebuild their lives and nation.
Harold T - (SGT, US Army, Retired)

Zorweb:

You've chosen to comment on an article I posted simply for interest's sake. I didn't write the article, nor do I necessarily *buy* what is written in it. Quite frankly, I would have been more interested in reading your response to my question regarding troops invading the United States, but I digress....

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If you look at every action of every other country in the world and good, and all actions of the USA as evil… then you are very anti-USA. <hr /></blockquote>If I objectively examine every side of the story and come to a conclusion that the U.S. government is fighting this war for another reason other than 'freedom', that makes me anti-USA? Very interesting---seeing as you're from a country that extols the virtues of freedom of speech, I would think you'd understand that it is my O P I N I O N and I am entitled to it. I never once mentioned anything about *good* or *evil*--those are YOUR words...

Keep in mind Zorweb, that I am *NOT* an American. I am patriotic to my *OWN* country, NOT YOURS. If an American who has lived, breathed, voted and reaped the benefits of their country was to be unpatriotic, you *MAY* have a point, but that certainly isn't the case here.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I have yet to hear you say one good thing about the USA.. you only show contempt and dislike for us.<hr /></blockquote>I've said time and time again that I believe the American people are being shafted by their government...I don't see that as contempt or dislike. Please point out the examples of my "contempt" and "dislike" in my post....

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Our soldiers do not need your misguided pity.<hr /></blockquote>How is my pity "misguided"? Do you speak for every soldier fighting in Iraq? Have you considered that perhaps, just as your soldiers have no use for my "pity", that the Iraqi people have no use for American intervention into their culture? Just a thought....

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But then again you are the ONLY, the one and only, person in this entire world who reads the news and keeps up with current events.<hr /></blockquote>I am?

~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~

TheNoteBookDude:

I truly feel for what you've been through and for your son. I hope you can understand that I bear no ill will toward the American people.

Did you read my lengthy message about 2 posts up? It quoted the original words of US Ambassador April Glaspie prior to the Gulf War in 1991, where she told Iraq that the United States had no interest in Kuwait. Had the United States had no interest, why were you forced to fight that war in the first place? If that war was faught under false pretenses, just what UNFINISHED BUSINESS is the military tending to presently?

I'm curious---not being disrespectful---from your viewpoint--do the actions of the US Ambassador make any sense at all? What was the government of Iraq to think after having heard the answer that April Glaspie gave?

Aeri,

I don’t have time for a long response right now.. will do that later but I just have to say something…

”Quite frankly, I would have been more interested in reading your response to my question regarding troops invading the United States, but I digress....

I did not answer your silly rhetorical question because I thought it was a waste of time. But if you need it spelled out…. How I would feel about troops invading the USA? If you don’t see the difference between the coalition going in to rout out an oppressive regime, to get rid of WMD, and to break one more link of worldwide terrorist chain and some country invading the USA then there is not much I can tell you. You support Saddam’s regime and not the millions of oppressed Iraqi people. The regime is guilty of the most horrible crimes against humanity. I find that to be a morally bankrupt position. But then again that is JMHO.

Did you hear that most who work for Saddam’s regime, to include 'Baghdad Bob’, did not show up for work today? If I were an Iraqi and I were not a member of the Saddam’s sick regime, I’d be dancing in the streets like very large groups of Iraqi’s are doing today. Now that Saddam’s regime is gone this morning, the oppressed in Iraq are cheering and forming spontaneous rallies of some very happy, free people.

Watching the spontaneous relays this morning, all I can say is that it’s amazing how strong the human spirit is. Even after all of these years of oppression, the Iraqi people still kept their independence privately. They may have mouthed their forced support of Saddam, but in their souls all wanted to be free of a tyrant.

To quote a Shiite Leader in Iraq this morning: The tyrant.. is finished

The notion that free people should sit back and do nothing against oppression has taken a huge blow.

--- added at lunch time

See the post below…. It brings up a very good point.

The USA, and much of the world has been under attack by terrorist forces since 1979. These attacks amount to acts of war. Several of the attacks were carried out on USA homeland. The 9/11 attack was of course the most devastating. Over 3500 Americans were killed that day, many others were seriously injured. You see the USA has been invaded and attacked. Those who choose to attack us have promised to hit us harder. So far our government has been able to stop several proposed attacks. Other nations have done the same. … Thank goodness.

Those who are against this was in Iraq are basically saying that the USA has no right to defend itself. In saying this they are on the side of those who are seeking to destroy the USA.

The way I look at it, the USA has gone to the aid of it’s allies over and over and over again for years. We have lost close to a million American citizens in the fights to help our allies. Even today, even after all our past allies who refuse to help us, we would be right there with them if they were attacked. Yet these very same allies will not even stand behind us. How sad.

Some people talk about how Pres. Bush and company failed politically. I don’t see it that way. The way I see it something very interesting has happened. Pres. Bush shook the trees in the orchard and some of the apples fell where we least expected. We have found out that some of those who we thought were our allies are proving to be less that that. But is it always better to know who your friends are and who they are not.

[ April 09, 2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: zorweb ]

Well,
Just watched Saddam's statue fall. The Iraqi civilian's don't seem too upset <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> and Baghdad Bob is nowhere to be seen.

It's a nice day to be an Iraqi citizen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

U.S. Navy Capt. Ouimette was the Executive Officer of NAS, Pensacola [FL].

Here is a copy of the speech he gave at the Civitan Club in February. A wonderful and accurate account of why we are in trouble today.

America WAKE UP!

That's what we think we heard on the 11th of September 2001 and maybe it was, but I think it should have been "Get Out of Bed!" In fact, I think the alarm clock has been buzzing since 1979 and we have continued to hit the snooze button and roll over for a few more minutes of peaceful sleep since then.

It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students attacked
and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the world's most
powerful country hostage and paralyzed a presidency. The attack on this sovereign US embassy set the stage for the events to follow for the next 23 years.

America was still reeling from the aftermath of the Viet Nam experience and had a serious threat from the Soviet Union when then, President Carter, had to do something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in the desert. The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but stood as a symbol of America's inability to deal with terrorism. America's military had been decimated and
downsized / right sized since the end of the Viet Nam war. A poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly organized military was called on to execute a complex mission that was doomed from the start.

Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her citizens living and working abroad. The attacks against US soil continued.

In April of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was driven into the US Embassy compound in Beirut. When it explodes, it kills 63
people. The alarm went off again and America hit the Snooze Button once more.

Then just six short months later a large truck heavily laden down with over 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of the US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut. 241 US servicemen are killed. America mourns her dead and hit the Snooze Button once more.

Two months later in December 1983, another truck loaded with explosives is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait, and America continues her slumber.

The following year, in September 1984, another van was driven into the gates of the US Embassy in Beirut and America slept.

Soon the terrorism spreads to Europe. In April 1985 a bomb explodes in a restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid.

Then in August a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are killed and the Snooze Alarm is buzzing louder and louder as US soil is continually attacked.

Fifty-nine days later a cruise ship, the Achille Lauro is hijacked and we watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger list and executed. The terrorists then shift their tactics to bombing civilian airliners when they bomb TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986 that killed 4 and the most tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988,
killing 259.

America wants to treat these terrorist acts as crimes; in fact we are still trying to bring these people to trial. These are acts of war..
the Wake Up alarm is louder and louder.

The terrorists decide to bring the fight to America. In January 1993, two CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia. The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are arrested after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured.

Still this is a crime and not an act of war? The Snooze alarm is depressed again.

Then in November 1995 a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women. A few months later
in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only 35 yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over 500.

The terrorists are getting braver and smarter as they see that America does not respond decisively. They move to coordinate their attacks in a simultaneous attack on two US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These attacks were planned with precision, they kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back to sleep.

The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on 12 October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war, but we sent the FBI to investigate the crime and went back to sleep.

And of course you know the events of 11 September 2001. Most Americans think this was the first attack against US soil or in America. How wrong
they are. America has been under a constant attack since 1979 and we chose to hit the snooze alarm and roll over and go back to sleep.

In the news lately we have seen lots of finger pointing from every high official in government over what they knew and what they didn't know.

But if you've read the papers and paid a little attention I think you can see exactly what they knew. You don't have to be in the FBI or CIA or on the National Security Council to see the pattern that has been developing since 1979. The President is right on when he says we are engaged in a war.

I think we have been in a war for the past 23 years and it will continue until we as a people decide enough is enough.

America has to "Get out of Bed" and act decisively now. America has changed forever. We have to be ready to pay the price and make the sacrifice to ensure our way of life continues. We cannot afford to hit the Snooze Button again and roll over and go back to sleep. We have to make the terrorists know that in the words of Admiral Yamamoto after the attack on Pearl Harbor
"that all they have done is to awaken a sleeping giant."

Thank you very much.
Dan Ouimette - Pensacola Civitan
19 Feb 2003

[ April 09, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]

Z

Let's see who did the US support in the Iran-Iraq War? Oh my it was Saddam Hussein. Gee isn't it funny now he's this evil tyrant but back then he was well an evil tyrant! LOL You are so good at spewing the party line and presenting it as facts but everything you have posted is your opinion. And hardly an unbiased one at that. If I remember correctly both you and your H are civilan employees of the US military? So you have let's call it a vested interest in continuance of military actions. Maybe a little financial interest stock in Haliburton perhaps?

The sad thing you really think that you know what you are talking about but sadly you are just as delusional as those you support. Adn that's my opinion and as far as I know I am still entitled to one.

"I understand small business growth. I was one. - George Bush 2.19.00

[ April 09, 2003, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: KalGrl ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Let's see who did the US support in the Iran-Iraq War? Oh my it was Saddam Hussein. <hr /></blockquote>This is not entirely accurate. The US supported Iraq AND Iran. It was known as the Iran-Contras scandal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KalGrl:
The sad thing you really think that you know what you are talking about but sadly you are just as delusional as those you support. Adn that's my opinion and as far as I know I am still entitled to one.<hr /></blockquote>KalGrl,

You are entitled to an opinion, but on this board you are expected to express it respectfully. Please remember that.

Everyone,

This conversation should go on. Different opinions should be expressed. Let us all remember to do so in a respectful way so that discussion doesn't degenerate into fighting.

Thanks,
Nokomis

LOL this entire thread is direspectful! I could point out to you several disrespectful threads. I guess the difference who is doing the disrespecting. For the holier than thou crowd it's called expressing an opinion but for those who don't agree with them it's called being disrespectful LOL. Differences of opinion should be expressed as long as they aren't that different. Make sense to me.

[ April 09, 2003, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: KalGrl ]

Your message is the only one I have seen so far calling another member delusional. Other posters on this thread have been commented to in the past. Your post also drew a complaint, and it wasn't from Zorweb.

Hey Takola....

I hope that was tongue-in-cheek---since during the entire Iran/Iraq war the US publically supported IRAQ and SECRETLY sold ammunitions to Iran. That's why we had the Iran Contra HEARINGS....Oliver North wasn't exactly SUPPOSED to have done what he did....

This is precisely why I don't support ANY western intervention in the middle east....too many ulterior motives.

...and for the record....war can only be waged against NATIONS, not individuals or groups--this is why the United States should tread softly when invading largely Muslim, middle eastern countries.....Declaring war will INCREASE acts of terrorism on American soil--not prevent it.

Forgive me for sounding like an alarmist, but did you notice that when everyone was declaring that Iraq was "FREE" from their tyrant today, Saddam was rumoured to have been holed up in the Russian Embassy? Does anyone get CHILLS when hearing this? HELLO? Russia and China are on the same side---and the Chinese have an enormous army compared to the US....Have we all just slipped into a false sense of security, thinking that if Hussein was defeated, the threat of a global nuclear war would disappear?

This "war" has just begun....YES, there were happy Iraqis dancing in the streets today--I was certainly happy for them...BUT, for every Iraqi dancing, there were hundreds of distrusting people, still willing to give up their own lives to protect their country.

The problems in Iraq have only JUST begun.

Did the US not liberate Afganistan recently? How far has that democratic government progressed? Do we even HEAR about it? I'm afraid that the Iraqis will become the "new" forgotten people, just as they were 'forgotten' in 1991. Why wasn't 'freedom' an issue in 1991?

For those of you who are interested, I recently read a book that changed my views COMPLETELY on world politics. Prepare to be enlightened:

The Unseen Hand by A. Ralph Epperson

A. Ralph Epperson is an American (a historian, no doubt) who chronicles WORLD history and how it relates to the current (well, 1984) political conditions in the U.S. Those of you who find my views Anti-American, may want to question HIM, since most of views were shaped by the books he's written.

[ April 09, 2003, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: aeri ]

To whoever lodged the complaint come out come out! It's pretty sad that you had to run to the moderator instead of just posting directly to me.

Hmm...wasn't me.

You're the only one who's remotely agreeing with me .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Does anyone get CHILLS when hearing this? HELLO? Russia and China are on the same side <hr /></blockquote>Yes, this does concern me. I asked my dad, "Do you think this war could escalate beyond Iraq?" And he said, "Well, yeah." Kind of like "Duh." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Thanks, Dad.

Anyway, yeah, it could happen. I think it's only a matter of time. If China and Russia are together, then it means they might be gearing up for something in the future, just waiting for the right time.

But, despite the dangers, I think we ought to do what we think is right. I'm not saying that everyone is doing what they think is right here, but from a US citizens POV, we are if we are going there to let the world know that we are not going to sit back and take their attacks, and to free a nation of people.

Again, I will be furious, and you may even see me on t.v., if we're there for anything more.

BTW, I thought we were in Kuwait last time to keep Kuwait out of Iraq's hands. IOW, Saddam went in to take it over and we went there to preserve Kuwait's sovereignty. So, is it okay for Saddam to invade and take over a country for its oil, but the US can't (even though I don't believe that's why we're there).

Aeri, out of curiosity (not as in a side show, but as in real interest), what other political authors have you read? I'm curious if you read the article by Bill O'Reilly discussing Walter Cronkite's political world view. The reason I ask is because it may be interesting to see what he says is the difference there. That may explain our differences of opinion. I'll look it up.

BTW, I haven't read all of your latest response. My interest is waning some, in all the ins and outs of this war, but I WILL get to it.

Petals

Okay - I ducked when I came in the room and still got hit by the soup!!!

Actually, I think the origination of this war probably existed long before the Iran Contra situation or even before Iran and Iraq were playing footsie in the middle east. *Those* nationalities have been blasting each other since Bible times and still haven't decided who gets the oreos!

Placating the warmongers is easy - we bomb the guts out of Iraq, leave them standing in the streets wounded, and take plenty of pictures. Blood and guts gives them great pleasure!

Coincidentally, satisfying the protestors takes much less, we just have to provide food and build up the country so they can live comfortably on rainbow stew and free bubble up in their newly renovated AMERICAN built homes.

The reality of the situation hits somewhere in between --- it's kind of like punishing vs. disciplining children.

I woke up on September 11, 2001 to the sounds of the twin towers crashing to the ground on my radio, a radio announcer saying something about a commercial airliner crashing into them - and three days later, I had to drive 1200 miles instead of flying there. My life changed - and I don't believe the loss of FREEDOM to fly casually across country in my home land was a price I am willing to pay - for terrorist Muslim's to run-a-muck in my society.

Americans have stepped back and allowed others to come into our country and CHANGE the way we WANT to live for FAR TOO LONG. It's time to stand up for the freedom and speak out against those who want to make us a military state --- I'm not willing to accept TERRORISM as status quo any more than I was willing to accept neighborhood gangs as a part of my personal reality a few years back. There is such a thing as standing your ground and making it known that you will not tolerate nor condone behaviors that destroy your rights as a person, as a neighborhood, or as a nation.

I'm completely behind our soldiers and what they are doing in IRAQ!!! They deserve our support - and prayers, as does our president.

I'm all for Freedom of SPEECH, Freedom OF Religion, and all those other wonders of American LIFE...

I just wonder what it is that makes people so willing to accept the loss of freedom that they will speak out against the fight to maintain it?

Just my thoughts...

Jan

PS... have at it -- ELVIS has now left the room... AGAIN! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> As long as the United States government can convince you that somehow blowing up an entire country to "free" them is just, you'll continue to vote and support George W. Bush and he'll just become more powerful. <hr /></blockquote>Actually, he's only got two tries for office (that's 8 years), otherwise I fear we'd be under Clinton administration forever <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .

BTW, I would have voted for John McCain, and he was a POW, and he support Bush. I also couldn't decide between Bush and Gore, but on 9-11, I was glad we had Bush in office. I just don't see Gore having any back bone. I could be wrong, but that's just the feeling I got. And he is the son of a vet, but he wasn't one, either.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Wake up everyone--that was your government talking--what caused the U.S. to not take diplomatic action to end the standoff between Kuwait and Iraq when they were made aware? Why did they not voice their intention to protect Kuwait? I think the quote speaks for itself.<hr /></blockquote>Well, actually, that was just one person of our gov't. And I'm sorry to say that stake burning is unacceptable now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> And actually, since that's all I'm aware of in that quote (I wasn't able to vote legally at the time) that the US had knowledge of Iraq's intentions, it doesn't make Saddam's invasion right.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Perhaps someone would like to enlighten me as to why back only 13 years ago, your Ambassador was diplomatically discussing plans to improve relations with Iraq...Hussein was President then, as he is now ----were the people *MORE* free then?<hr /></blockquote>Don't know. But think about this: There was a partisan turnover in the next election. Democracy at work. But, from what I understand, Congress said that we could only go as far as defending Kuwait, but could not storm Baghdad. Don't know. All this knowledge is still new to me, and we're studying ancient history in school right now. I'm sure I will be very interested in the Gulf War I, and II, when we get to modern times, and more info will be out.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think you should ask yourselves---if your government had an ulterior motive for attacking Iraq in 1991, how can you be sure that they don't have one now? How can you justify THIS war, knowing that it's based on what wasn't *resolved* in the previous war? Does the average American feel that questioning this is unpatriotic? Has the government brainwashed you to that point?<hr /></blockquote>What was the ulterior motive then? That article doesn't PROVE there was an ulterior motive. As far as I can tell, we had an incompetent ambassador there. Maybe not, but that alone doesn't prove anything. Do you have another source for that?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I await my flamings.
<hr /></blockquote>I hope I haven't flamed you. I do respect your opinion. And I meant to write this to you before (if I haven't already) that my statement that if someone should put out an uninformed opinion, it should be criticized was not against you. It's stating the fact that anyone who publicly announces his opinion has just opened himself to criticism, and so he needs to back up his facts.

Petals

Just found this...

Wanted to share it... And I believe it warrants listening to it...

Soldier Song

Turn up the volume!!! It's awesome!!!

Blessings,

Jan

getting better,

I hear that the reason that Baghdad Bob did not show up at work today is because he’s opening with the comedy act in Las Vegas next week.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

KalGirl,

Let's see who did the US support in the Iran-Iraq War? Oh my it was Saddam Hussein. Gee isn't it funny now he's this evil tyrant but back then he was well an evil tyrant!

The Iran-Iraq War was from 1980 – 1988. Though Saddam started earlier, his tyranny ‘matured’ during the Iran-Iraq war. As I said earlier here, yes the USA did give Saddam military support during those years. So did the Soviet Union. As a matter of fact, if you look at the Iraqi tanks (though there are only 18 or so of the 800 left) they are all Soviet tanks… the T55, T72 and perhaps a few T80. (The number indicates the first year the tank was produced.) One of the reasons the Iraqi Army has been so easy to defeat in both wars with Iraq is that much of their military training and equipment comes from the Soviet Union. It is greatly inferior to the equipment and tactics used by the USA. Also recall that Saddam looked to the Soviet Union and Hitler to model his regime.

Yes there was a time when the USA supported Saddam but as the years went on the US/Iraqi relationship broke down because of Saddam regime. My bet is that no one, not in their wildest nightmares, knew what his regime would ‘mature’ into.

I have had a very big issue with the USA and other world governments dealing with and sometimes backing up tyrannical regimes… with them just turning looking the other way.

You may recall that starting in the 1980’s there was a very big push for the USA to just stay out of the politics of other countries. We took a live and let live attitude. It is the attitude that the left wing and many other countries pushed the USA to take.

It’s a dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t situation.

LOL You are so good at spewing the party line and presenting it as facts but everything you have posted is your opinion.

Really? Everything I have posted is my opinion? I have backed up what I said with as many facts as I could, researched them to make sure I was not misrepresenting the facts. So if I’ve misrepresented facts it’s not my intent. I’d love to know which ones I got wrong. That way I can study further. If you would please tell me what I got wrong I’d be glad to know. (I’m not being sarcastic. The point of free speech and open discussion is to learn.)

As for things being my opinion… some of what I’ve said are indeed facts. And some of it is my opinion. Are you suggesting that you and anyone who disagrees with me is entitled to their opinion and I am not?

What I’ve said here is not ‘party line’. You see I’ve arrived at my opinions after reading and witnessing things in my life. From your comments you may be surprised to find out that I’ve been a registered Democrat for most of my life. After the Pres. Clinton years it appeared to me that both parties differed only by who was leading them. I did not like the way either one of them way going. It seems that there was no clear choice. I absolutely did not like Presidents Reagan or the first President Bush. There were also things about Clinton I did not like… for one thing he’s a sleaze bag. There is much that the USA has done that I do not agree with. When I do not agree I am out spoke about it. It’s called exercising my right to freedom of speech.

I could argue both sides of these issues we are discussing. I understand the points of view of those who take either side. But here I’ve been speaking my independent opinion. I have also been bringing up facts about events, facts that have been misrepresented by some. My words are hardly a party line.. it’s just that this time I agree with Operation Iraqi Freedom. I do not agree with everything my government does. I certainly have never agreed with everything that the right or the left in the USA does. The USA has not always been right; our government has at time done some things that would have been better not done. So has every country in this world, every one of them. My hope is that we are learning from our mistakes and those of other countries.

What I have been trying to do here is more to bring out the facts. Yes, I’ve also stated my opinions but have tried very hard to stick to the facts. It’s one thing to give one’s opinions, but to misrepresent the facts is well, not helping anyone. I guess some people just would rather forget the facts.. such as dates, who was involved in things, etc. They would rather concentrate on guessing the motives and on conspiracy theories. It’s a very dangerous game to play. As long as some one throws out half backed truths and trite slogans (like the USA make Saddam and ignores the place other countries took in the situation), there is no way I can give their argument credence. I’m not saying that anyone here is right or wrong on their conclusions or opinions. But let’s at least start with a foundation of what actually happened.

And hardly an unbiased one at that. If I remember correctly both you and your H are civilian employees of the US military? So you have let's call it a vested interest in continuance of military actions. Maybe a little financial interest stock in Haliburton perhaps?

LMAO, this is really funny. You are really digging deep now in an attempt to hit below the belt. The problem is that you sort of missed your target. (My h says for me to tell you that no we are military advisors to Saddam and hence now out of work, but that’s not true either.)

Neither of us is a civilian employee of the US military. Neither of us has ever been. He served several years in the US Military, a career path that started when he was drafted to go to Viet Nam.. an unfortunate military action for both the USA and for my H. He retired from the military years ago. After that he was the managing editor for a magazine. The later landed a position working for the US government office that does things like the congressional record. A few years ago he left that position for one in private industry. Though he is out of work right now he is interviewing for jobs in private industry.

I served 4 years in the US Army, joining a few months after the end of the Viet Nam war… that was over 28 years ago. As there was no money in my family after my father’s murder for me to get my degree, I entered the Army to get the GI bill. I did my time and got my degrees. Since then I have been working for companies that do work for both the military complex and for private industry. As a matter of fact one of the companies I worked for had a contract with China and other 3rd world countries build the satellites for their cell telephone network. Right now I’m working on the flight software for all sorts of aircraft… military as well as civilian. Our customers are worldwide. No I do not have a vested interest in continuance of military actions. In reality my company, like the rest of the USA, does better when there are no military conflicts.

Another point about our lives - My husband and I both have spent many years of our lives living in Europe, Africa, Asia and South/Central America. Our views are hardly party line, small town, uneducated ‘American’.

And no I do not have financial interests and/or stock in Haliburton.

The sad thing you really think that you know what you are talking about but sadly you are just as delusional as those you support.

You have yet to show me anything to make me reconsider my stance or for me to question what I believe to be the facts. You have certainly not introduced any information or facts. Instead you called me names and thrown accusations at me. It has been my experience that is a tactic used by those who have foundation to their viewpoint.

And that's my opinion and as far as I know I am still entitled to one.

Yes you are entitled to your opinion and your freedom of speech. Unless you are from countries such as China, North Korea, Iran, Somalia and Rwanda. Afghanistan up until a few months ago and Iraq until today. You may want to search the web.. Maybe start with Amnesty International.. They have kept tack of human rights violations around the world for years. I have a soft spot for that organization because I’ve worked with them before to help refugees from Poland, African Countries, etc.

From your comments it appears that you think someone here is trying to withhold your entitlement to an opinion and your freedom of speech. That is hardly the case. Just realize that if you exercise your freedom of speech, you have to be ready for people’s reactions to it. Everyone has an opinion you know. Just because your opinion differs from mine, it does not mean that I am delusional or have some ulterior motive to profit from it. As you challenged me, I challenge you go show me where my facts are wrong. Then we can have a discussion that might benefit both of us instead of a mud slinging fest.

We are both right in some instances and both wrong in other instances. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. I’m trying to find that place in the middle where truth lies. Calling me delusional and making accusations does nothing to bring anyone nearer to the truth.

[ April 10, 2003, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: zorweb ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I hope that was tongue-in-cheek---since during the entire Iran/Iraq war the US publically supported IRAQ and SECRETLY sold ammunitions to Iran. <hr /></blockquote>No, it isn't tongue-in-cheek. Selling arms to a country at war is support in my book, whether it's done publicly or behind closed doors. Just as many countries are supporting the coalition, but do not want to be named.

[ April 10, 2003, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]

Takola:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> No, it isn't tongue-in-cheek. Selling arms to a country at war is support in my book, whether it's done publicly or behind closed doors. Just as many countries are supporting the coalition, but do not want to be named. <hr /></blockquote>Help me to understand you--your country PUBLICALLY supported Iraq, yet SECRETLY sold arms to Iran...YES...they were SUPPORTING both sides....So, does this mean because there were secretly supporting Iran as well, that they were somehow against Hussein then? Hmm...kind of makes me wonder about that whole April Glaspie incident...Sounds as if US policy in the Middle East during the 1980's was rather skewed..

I agree that there are many countries supporting the coalition---would you be so blase if US allies were selling arms to Iraq? The United States were KNOWN allies to Iraq during that time---so what Kalgrl said was *correct*....

Let's see... the last time I attempted to dare share my political opinion on this site, during the 9/11 crisis, I was called a Bin Laden-hugger (absolutely NOT true, by the way!), so I'd best be careful now.

What I don't understand is this: Why can't I, as an American citizen who LOVES her country, think that this war is a horribly violent (duh) mistake without being told I'm Anti-American?

God forbid I say I can't stand George Bush, or his politics. And even when I say that I **do** support the VERY brave men and women who BELIEVE what they're fighting for, it isn't enough for those who support the war. (And bless their souls, each and every one of those who died for a cause they believed in...)

No, I'm not out on the street corners blocking traffic, nor am I screaming how I feel from the housetops, but when I am alone in my home watching TV, it just makes me ill, and sometimes it makes me cry.

Somehow, that is perceived to be against my country (at best) and somehow implies that I am pro-Iraq, or worse yet, Pro-Saddam. Neither is true.

I just happen to abhor war, and I am a someone who would have preferred not to have resorted to it.

Others before me (in this thread and elsewhere) have done a better job at explaining the 'facts' surrounding this situation, and I am no expert. I don't claim to be. What I'm talking about is human emotion, and a desire to believe that there must be *some* way other than war to have handled this mess.

Again, I will thank those who fought for what they believed in, and think they are very brave indeed... there will be no mocking, or spitting, or demeaning - not from me - only respect.

But I still don't like this war.

Sheryl,

Your perspective is fine with me. I hate war too and wish things hadn't come to this. On the same token, I don't view it that the US waged this war, but that terrorists began it, and since the gov't says that SH is tied with supporting terrorism, it seems logical that they would then go after him too.

Thank you for supporting our troops. I think they must view that and be grateful.

I think you voicing your opinion the way you are is perfectly acceptable, because you're not telling someone else what to believe, nor insulting anyone, nor are you breaking the law. I can handle that.

However, I do wonder if they are discouraged when they see others arguing over whether they should be there or not. I think it may be disheartening to them for the authority they have submitted themselves to to be undermined like that. KWIM? (This is not against you or your opinion, just an observation of mine.)

Could war have been avoided? You got me. I read something last night about leaders of nations...Let's see if I can remember it, or find it... Ah yes, here it is: "No earthly leader is incapable of misleading." -Beth Moore

That seems very simplistic, but it is poignant. It sure stops to make you think. GW Bush isn't the only earthly leader in the US. I'm a leader to my kids. We all lead in some fashion, unless we shirk that responsibility.

As for your political views, hey, they're yours. You're entitled to them. Some people very close to me probably share your views, so I will treat you as I treat them, with a (((hug))), and respectful smile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , and silence on the subject if it gets too hot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

I hope this is acceptable to you.

Petals

Oh, and one more thing (to the board members in general),

Regardless of the faults of our American gov't, I am still PROUD to be a US citizen. I get disillusioned with our Pres and Congress and our state leaders, as well. It matters not. I am free and I wish everyone could experience that. That's not to say that there are no other countries that are as privileged as we. What I am saying is that I love my homeland. I am blessed to live here rather than under some oppressive leadership. I thank God that I am free to pursue my dreams and that I don't have to move out of my country to do that.

If you are proud of your country, please feel free to express that. I will be glad for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Petals

Z I must have confused you with someone else regards being employees of the military.

I'll just take one sentence out of your recent post which really made me laugh please offer your foundation to this little fact.

It's the attitude that the left wing and many others countries pushed the the USA to take;"
If I understand your post this was supposed to have happened in the 1980's? This is your opinion not a fact. Or maybe interepretation would be a better word. Everything is open to interpretation. Your posts are full of little tidbits such as these. You take your intepretation and then present it as the facts. If you ask 20 different people about an event they will offer 20 different interpretation of the facts.of that event.

Your posts also have a condescending, self righteous, I am a superior being tone to them but then most public discourse is that way these days. My thought as I read your posts wow it must be so nice to have all answers to have it all figured out.
That's what I find so distasteful about your posts.

Me I won't even pretend that I have it all figured out. I have my reasons for not supporting the war; based on my values, worldview, life experience etc. that's my foundation. It's is no more or less valid than yours.

Hey NB

Will you sponsor me so I can move to Canada LOL

I visited Victoria BC a few year ago and decided that;s where I will retire. That's only 20 years away. LOL

[ April 10, 2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: KalGrl ]

Hi Zuzu, and THANK YOU for your warm and understanding response to my post! ((Zuzu))

Yes, I do worry about being vocal about how I feel, just for the reason that you mention - our military *doesn't* need to hear from those who oppose the war. I try not to argue with my dad, who is veeeery much behind Bush, and when I do I am respectful. My husband, being Canadian and a liberal soul, has his views, and we discuss them, again in a respectful manner (of course we agree on much more than we disagree upon). In short, I have no desire to push my views, no matter how passionate, down anyone's throats, LEAST OF ALL the men and women who are fighting and dying for this cause.

Hey back atya Kalgirl, and listen, if you can figure out a way to be sponsored by someone who can't seem to get through the process herself, I'm here for ya! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> The west is GORGEOUS, but so is Ontario, truly. Really humid though! And, you aren't alone in your quest to retire up North - I've met MANY! Who knows though, in 20 years you may go through a whole metamorphisis and decide you want Bali instead! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

”You may recall that starting in the 1980’s there was a very big push for the USA to just stay out of the politics of other countries. We took a live and let live attitude. It is the attitude that the left wing and many other countries pushed the USA to take.”

I think the quote you are talking about. Of course that is my opinion. It would be more accurate for me to say that I believe the push came from well meaning people who believed that the USA staying out of things worldwide was the right things to do. It is a viewpoint that the left wing tends to agree with. One thing that I believe made many people lean that way is the mess in Viet Nam.

It is also my opinion that there is a fine line that the USA is still looking for as to how much they should/should not be involved in the affairs worldwide. Seems like so many things it’s a pendulum that keeps swinging back and forth, never quite settling down. (Opinion)

You take your interpretation and then present it as the facts. If you ask 20 different people about an event they will offer 20 different interpretations of the facts of that event.

You seem to have a problem with anyone having an opinion you do not agree with. I have never stated that my opinions are facts; it is you who are taking them that way. There are plenty of people here on all sides of the fence who are doing the same thing.. Stating their opinions with conviction.

If you ask 20 different people about an event they will offer 20 different interpretation of the facts of that event.

Yes there are interpretations and then there are facts. Let’s take a look at the facts

Let's see who did the US support in the Iran-Iraq War? Oh my it was Saddam Hussein. Gee isn't it funny now he's this evil tyrant but back then he was well an evil tyrant!

Now I’ll give you a bit of your chiding back. This is not a true statement. It is a very typical misrepresentation of facts and world events.

What the USA supported was the two countries maintaining a balance so that neither would over run the other. Again, most of the weapons used by Iraq in that war were from the Soviet Union. Iraq also had weapons from France, Germany and a whole slew of other countries. The USA provided them with just enough to keep something of a stalemate going. There were many countries playing the same game with Iraq and Iran… Soviet Union, other Arab countries, France, and so forth. The idea was to keep either of them from winning that war and overtaking the other country. It’s not that the USA was Saddam’s good buddy or even Iran’s good buddy, it’s that we as many other countries in the world feared the instability that would come from one of the countries over taking the other. Some Background

Your posts also have a condescending, self-righteous, I am a superior being tone to them but then most public discourse is that way these days.

Hey I have as much right to have an opinion and voice it as you or anyone else does. Sorry it that bothers you. I choose to exercise my right to free speech. The good folks here at MB have been nice enough to allow a forum for this. I’ve been posting here on the subject because in replying it’s getting me thinking and learning. With the world events the way they are, there is much to put into perspective. If you don’t like my posts, just don’t read them.

[ April 10, 2003, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: zorweb ]

quote:

No, it isn't tongue-in-cheek. Selling arms to a country at war is support in my book, whether it's done publicly or behind closed doors. Just as many countries are supporting the coalition, but do not want to be named.

The Iran-Contra fiasco was not an action of the US government. In order for it to be that it would have to be legally sanctioned by the branches of our government that sanction such things. It was an action by some highly placed renegade members of our government. Why? To buy the release of hostages, fund their pet projects and to perhaps sway the more moderate factions in Iran. (Were there moderate factions in Iran at that time?) The action was illegal. The participants boldfaced lied in court and to the American public about who knew what and what they did. Why the defendants escaped prison terms and why President Reagan and the Pres. Bush were not impeached for it I have no clue. Well except that Pres. Reagan exercised his power to pardon the participants

”Later Reagan wrote in his memoirs that he believed that dealing with the moderates in Iran would open up channels of communication. Critics argued that the action took place simply because it was a pet project of the president's; and when Congress refused to appropriate the money, Reagan looked elsewhere for funds."

"Iran-contra affair , in U.S. history, secret arrangement in the 1980s to provide funds to the Nicaraguan contra rebels from profits gained by selling arms to Iran. The Iran-contra affair was the product of two separate initiatives during the administration of President Ronald Reagan. The first was a commitment to aid the contras who were conducting a guerrilla war against the Sandinista government of Nicaragua. The second was to placate “moderates” within the Iranian government in order to secure the release of American hostages held by pro-Iranian groups in Lebanon and to influence Iranian foreign policy in a pro-Western direction."

The thing about all this stuff is that it’s so involved and entwined with so many world events, so many nations were involved, that it’s hard to tell who was doing what to whom. The danger is in taking one simple facts [ “the USA supported Saddam”, “the USA provided weapons to Iran”] out of historical context. A person can always find a few facts to support whatever their opinion is… kind of like reading the Bible. IMHO the more things are put in perspective the closer we can get to a clear picture.

[ April 10, 2003, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: zorweb ]

I take issue with opinion being presented as facts. In my opinion you have done that repeatedly obviously you don't agree. No surprise there.

I was being facetious with my statement about SH
"It is a typical misrepresentation of facts and world events." That about sums up how I feel about your posts.

[ April 10, 2003, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: KalGrl ]

KalGrl,
Your voice and message is welcomed here as well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

KalGrl,

I'm sure that Zorweb's POV is inciteful. I'm sure that there are those that disagree with her vehemently.

However, I must say that if you think Zorweb is making a mistake by presenting her opinion as facts, then I think you're making a mistake in not accepting her opinion as her own. Obviously, she is convinced of her POV because she believes it. I think she is "speaking" with authority as someone who has been in places and situations that many of us have never been in and probably never will be.

I think rather than taking issue with her style of presenting her opinion, you might challenge her with facts that you have brought up. I see that you're doing the same thing she is with throwing out tidbits with no documentation. That in itself doesn't disprove an argument, but the lack of documented support leaves the argument vulnerable.

I think if you want to argue with Zorweb, don't criticize her person, but present your own facts that oppose hers, and do so with documentation. That will challenge Zorweb, I think, without disrespecting her and drawing the attention of the mods.

Now, this is a discussion board. You can say what you want, and put into your arguments as much time as you want. This is just a suggestion. You may wonder why I'm defending Zorweb. Well, I don't think I am so much defending her as the Reason behind treating others with respect. But, if I am defending Zorweb it is because of this: This woman has been through so much in her life, is going through enormous trials with her family and her DD Little Z (you might search for her story), and I just see that she deserves great amounts of respect. Not more than anyone else as a person, but just for all that she has witnessed and sustained in her life. Even if I disagreed with her POV, I would want to see her treated fairly.

Because she is older than I, I tend to treat her with the kind of respect that I just let her go and say what she wants, as long as it's not blatantly disrespectful. If she has administered disrespect to others and I have not said anything, then it may be because I figured the other person or mods could handle it or that I just didn't know what to say to her.

I see that you have softened your approach and I appreciate that. I'm just pointing out a tactic you might find useful for argument's sake.

Gosh, I hope this is clear and taken in the spirit it is meant.

Petals

new_beginning

I’ve been thinking a lot about your post.

What I don't understand is this: Why can't I, as an American citizen who LOVES her country, think that this war is a horribly violent (duh) mistake without being told I'm Anti-American?

I’ve heard people make that statement and I don’t’ get it either. Your being against the war does not make you anti-American, a trader or pro-Saddam. It only means that you think that war is not the answer.

Certainly that is what freedom is, isn’t it? The right to have one’s own opinion be it the same or different than that of the majority. That is what makes this country strong. If everyone thought the same way all the time (or was forced to think the same way) we’d have no moderating and descending voices. They are the anchors that keep a crowd from all jumping off the cliff.

I too hate war. I also hate tyranny and terrorism. The question that we have all had to ask ourselves is which is the worse of the two evils.. which will arrive at a peaceful/safe solution the quickest with the least harm. People arrive at different conclusions.

I wish someone had come up with a better solution than war. The entire world community failed in diplomacy on this one IMHO.

Having seen first hand the tyranny of regimes similar to Saddam’s, the horror of terrorism and war I did not arrive at my conclusion easily. The pictures of war on TV hit me hard because they are making me relive some things I really don’t want to relive.

You have my respect as you voice your opinion with conviction and do not insult anyone or break the law. That is what freedom of speech is about. You are a good, kind soul.

A thought …….. No one hates war more than the soldier.

Petals,

Thanks for the post. Sorry, I don’t mean to be such a pain in the [censored]. It’s like the Briar Rabbit and the Tar Baby… the more Briar Rabbit took jabs at the Tar Baby the more he got caught up in the tar.

KalGrl,

"It is a typical misrepresentation of facts and world events." That about sums up how I feel about your posts.

Since you have yet to bring up any of the ‘facts and world events’ that you feel I have misrepresented, I have no idea of how to respond to you. I’d welcome the opportunity.

Zorweb,

You are not a pain in MY backside. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I have noticed you using strong language, particularly when criticized, but it was no skin off my nose and I figured that I was probably not the one to handle it at the time.

If the language had become offensive, I might have said something, but I don't expect that from you. I don't think you've attacked any person either, just stated your view of their opinions. I may be wrong, but that has been my observation (with not a whole lot of time to devote to this thread).

Petals

PS. Zorweb, you have provided documentation in the form of online articles you have found. Aeri has posted support of her ideas, as well. I just meant in the heat of it all, one might throw in something...perhaps a source they have interpreted to mean X, you know?

[ April 11, 2003, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]

Thank you Zorweb, for a thoughtful reply to my postings.

I understand we all feel passionately about our viewpoints, as well as the facts (as we understand them), and I am no exception! It DOES make it difficult to have an unemotional discussion about this war, doesn't it?

I have enjoyed reading everyones responses (for the most part anyway, some were especially difficult), and I have learned a thing or two.

I appreciate and respect differing opinions.

Take care... and I would agree, without my having ever been in the military, that nobody hates war more than a soldier - and I would add - parents and loved-ones of fallen soldiers must feel it most acutely of all.

[ April 11, 2003, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]

More than once, this thread has been called "disrespectful." I think there have been some disrespectful statements in it, but I think for the sheer volume of it and considering the topic, it has stayed very respectful. However, here are some statements I've found, some 1320 words applied to being disrespectful. Next thing, I am going to find all the encouraging statements made.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I hope our troops are truly there to take Iraq away from Satan...er Saddam (This is definitely disrespectful...to SH.)

Because Canada does NOT require you to lose your culture at the border, these people are very comfortable in telling me how the general Iraqi population feels. (I’m not sure this is disrespectful. But it did feel like it. I think mostly, it’s a misunderstanding of the US.)

Are you seriously defending Saddam Hussein?? I could not have possibly read your post right.

I can see that it is confusing. However, the insertion of this argument into the original argument is a non-sequitor. Neither has bearing on the other. (Hmm...I took this as a discussion of logic, not as an insult, but I think Aeri may have been insulted, so I’m including it.)

As for having no understanding of other religions and culture. You've got to be kidding.

No, they tell you how they feel. Surely, they don't speak for the general Iraqi population.

You have your bias showing. That's ok, we all do. Let's not pretend that we don't, though.

certainly you have gotten some lopsided media.

What newspaper are you reading?

Be careful of quoting your Iraqi Brothers

You are not alone in this and sadly mistaken if you believe it.

Oh, you mean Al-Jezeera is a US broadcast?

I have no intention of telling you you are anything, except maybe ignorant. That's only because I am ignorant also, and it's impossible to eradicate it completely.

Anyone who is telling you it is feeding you disinformation.

Of course they also are submitted to rape as a normal form of punishment and intimidation of women by the Saddam regimen. I suppose that is also one of the benefits of being an Iraqi woman.

do you really think that the US, amnesty international and other organization worldwide have no idea of the tens’ of thousands of Kurds who were killed using chemical weapons?

You obviously do not know much about the FBI’s infiltration of the KKK and their disillusion of them as an affective organization.

Your assumption that they say what they say because they have to is ridiculous.. who is holding a gun to their head? Who is keeping them here?

Have you ever considered that perhaps the Iraqi ‘brothers’ who come to the USA do so because they like USA?

This will show you how we had to give up our cultures….

If one carefully selects whom they ask a question of, they can ensure which response they will get.
Again you are assuming that we are airheads lead easily lead around in the dark. Why do you only listen to the left wing propaganda being fed to the world?

I can hardly believe you are now turning against the USA for our involvement in the two world wars that for the most part we never wanted to be involved in. All I can say is that this proves that no good deed goes unpunished.

We are not the stupid, ignorant, warmongers who you are making us out to be.

That you have not bothered to do the research necessary to arrive at a balanced look at the issues.

Couldn't you have claimed to be from France or Germany before making such a statement?

So what? 60% of Iraqis rely on aid for food. That hardly sounds like a benevolent regime.

Some recommended reading materials for YOU and everyone else who spouted propaganda on this thread

Ever heard of pressure tactics?

pretty darn flexible for a MANIAC like Saddam, huh?

You want to stop buying from international markets? LOL..that's a laugh--Luckily for their friendship with CHINA (OH SORRY, that's a non-sequitor)you wouldn't have any affordable goods in your marketplace.

I'm not going to pick apart your quotes because you're the type of person who sticks to their guns, right or wrong.

Here you are taking what you read/hear and distorting it to suit your views.

So you can hang it up on this one.

you seem to have a very great hate and distrust of the USA. Since everyone here is wrong if they are from the USA, there is no reason to even try to talk to you.

Sounds to me like you’ve been calling us a bunch of stupid, ignorants, lead by the nose. Sounds like you do have a problem with us.

You are kidding us right? If you have only seen these things mentioned here then you have been hiding from them. Please get your facts straight.

From what you have said, you are most likely to believe things said against the USA. I guess we are just an evil empire.

There you go again.. you are so much more, well worldly, then the rest of us. YOU choose to read all the time but well we are just poor misguided stupid Americans. Now who is listening to whose propaganda.

I disagree with your Anti-American malarky

Yes, we know how you view us. We are woefully ignorant and lead by the nose by the almighty media. We don't read or think for ourselves. We are the brash, unthinking, silly Americans who must be pitied and put in our places. Our government is the evil empire that wants to rule the world and we, the innocent victims of the terrible government, must be saved from ourselves. No, you don't hate Americans...we're just too stupid to see that. I'm amazed I can put my shoes on without assistance.

not a certified Am flag. (This was obviously disrespectful to the flag)

However, if we are considered to be a bunch of numbskulls with drool constantly dangling from our mouths, then we will not be considered a knowledgeable source. That's a crying shame. (Even though I didn’t intend it, I think this was insulting to Aeri)

I am having a problem with the duplicity in all of this.

POWs are a fact of war--get used to it.

GEEZ!

Now there is a discussion packed with relevance and insight. I’m sure that you have convinced many by all you brought to the table.

Let's see if I have this correct. 2 posts (won't call names you can figure it out.

One endorsing porn and one Anti-American, anti-your own country. Is there anything you do like other than porn?

O subtle child of few words, how sad you are.

Some of the words here explain very clearly why so many are having problems in their relationships at home.

Our soldiers do not need your misguided pity.

But then again you are the ONLY, the one and only, person in this entire world who reads the news and keeps up with current events.

I did not answer your silly rhetorical question because I thought it was a waste of time. But if you need it spelled out…. You support Saddam’s regime and not the millions of oppressed Iraqi people.

So you have let's call it a vested interest in continuance of military actions. Maybe a little financial interest stock in Haliburton perhaps?

you are just as delusional as those you support.

LOL this entire thread is direspectful! I guess the difference who is doing the disrespecting. For the holier than thou crowd it's called expressing an opinion but for those who don't agree with them it's called being disrespectful LOL.

It's pretty sad that you had to run to the moderator instead of just posting directly to me.

You are really digging deep now in an attempt to hit below the belt.

Your posts also have a condescending, self righteous, I am a superior being tone to them

You seem to have a problem with anyone having an opinion you do not agree with.
<hr /></blockquote>

[ April 11, 2003, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]

Zorweb,

I keep thinking about it. I can't shake it off and think, "Oh, it hasn't bothered her." I just don't know and I would never want to say anything leaving you scratching your head thinking, "What did she mean by that?" ARRGH!!!

So, the line above to KalGrl, something like: I'm sure Zorweb's posts are inciteful, should have read, "I'm sure Zorweb's posts are inciteful to some." They were not inciteful to me. Rather, they were insightful and encouraging to me. I have learned so much from them and I thank you so much for sharing them. So, I ask your forgiveness if my words have hurt you, or discouraged you in any way.

Also, as I stated above, you have supported many of your ideas with online posts and have shown yourself to be an avid reader of current events. If I were you, I'd be proud of that dedication. Thank you for challenging us here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I'm glad to know you.

Petals

[ April 12, 2003, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]

Petals,

Thanks for the clarification.. Your post and the rest of this thread have been playing on my mind.

It does seem that for some inciteful is the more fitting word. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But hey, many of the posts here are both no matter which side of the argument they are on. The entire discourse has me really thinking about things. Despite my apparent style of writing (and speaking) in a strong voice, I certainly don’t have the answers to anything. That is exactly why I was enjoying this thread. Sometimes I find it very good to think about things outside of the turmoil in my life. Not that I’ll ever solve anything by it.

A saying I really like is that we must pray that we are on God’s side, not that God is on our side. It’s usually not easy to know which of the many possible sides is God’s side.

Unfortunately this weekend I’m buried in the real world - taxes. I hate doing taxes.

You’re a rather cool lady yourself Petals. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ April 13, 2003, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: zorweb ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But hey, many of the posts here are both no matter which side of the argument they are on. <hr /></blockquote>Isn't that the truth? I don't know why this is such a hot-button topic. I know that some issues are hot-buttons, but the whole that is politics doesn't get me up-in-arms.

I think some people explode at the meer mention of politics and are convinced they are going to change minds. When they don't change minds, things begin to boil. I've been guilty of this, myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

But, I hope you gained some peace last night. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Petals

This discussion is over for me, but I do want to say a few things before I quit the thread completely...

I think in general, Americans can't understand why others so against the war in Iraq..this is what causes the argument to become so inflamed..

If we were to take the "freedom" perspective, it seems so logical that one country should come into another and "free" them from the shackles of their government. From the opposite perspective, it becomes a bit more complicated. No one wants to know that "big brother" can walk in at any time and decide how their lives should change ...

As a Canadian, I wouldn't be too happy if the US just decided to liberate me from my government---sometimes my government SUCKS, but that doesn't mean I need help in dealing with it....I'm used to what freedom (less or more) that I have. I'm sure according to *OUR* standards, the Iraqis were suffering under Saddam Hussein, but I'm not entirely convinced that it justifies the action that the United States took against it.

Any country who ignores the UN to pursue what they believe is *right* strikes me as an aggressor who cannot be stopped ......this is scary. How would we have all felt if China had decided to go against the UN and invaded some smaller country? Probably not incredibly secure...

It doesn't matter who "wins" here. This argument ended for me when I saw a picture of an 11 year old Iraqi boy with both arms blown off in Saturday's newspaper. This boy, whose mother and father were killed, really doesn't care whether there is more freedom in his country---HIS freedom is lost forever--that is, if he survives.

As I said before...you can't wage war against terrorist groups or individuals...The US should know that--they've been attempting to stop the underground drug culture and organized crime in their own country for years!

The war against the United States has only just begun--not only are many industrialized nations against the US for their involvement in Iraq, but the Muslim nations are fuming as well!

Every American should realize--your President is putting YOU at risk. HE will NOT be bombed or sabotaged by terrorists...it will be the population who suffers...just like the little boy who lost his arms...he sacrificed his freedom, limbs and possibly his life for the sake of his leader.

Peace to all

~*~ Aeri ~*~

The war against the United States has only just begun--not only are many industrialized nations against the US for their involvement in Iraq, but the Muslim nations are fuming as well!

Pres. Bush declared war against terrorists and the nations who support/harbor them. The terrorists are one ‘a person’ they are organized groups with strong backing of countries. They hide behind the illusion that they are ‘a person’. Actually.. When I think of it, they have the look of mercenaries with strong ideological beliefs. Any nation who helps terrorists whose goal is to attack American citizens and destroy the USA is aligned to that same goal. Therefore they are enemies of the USA. The terrorist organizations that are being targeted are not independent.. they are state sanctioned and funded.

The war against the USA started in 1979…. See the list below of only some of the attacks against the USA over the last 23 years. Just in the listed attacks below 4363 Americans have been killed and well over 1500 have been injured . And these are not all of the attacks. They are certainly not all the attacks that have been planned over the years… many have been thwarted worldwide. To say that the USA cannot go after the terrorists and those who support them is to say that the USA has no right to protect itself. Every nation has the right and the obligation to protect itself.

Doing little about these attacks has certainly not stopped them.. it has only led to emboldened terrorists organizations and the nations that support them. Turning a cheek and appeasement has not worked.

I too am saddened by the images of the young boy. I am also saddened by the injuries and deaths of the thousands, well actually millions who has been killed, tortured, etc. by Saddam’s regime. That young boy and his story is heart wrenching. But is his story more heart wrenching than the pain and loss of 100’s of thousands of others over the years? Is it more heart wrenching than those that will surely follow if this mad man (Saddam) and the terrorists he helped are not stopped?

The answer is not an easy one… turning a blind eye and appeasement is not the answer… that’s been proven.

Reiterated List

November 1979 – Tehran, Iranian students attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil.

1979 - Americans began to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle East.

April 1983 - Bombing of the US Embassy compound in Beirut, killing 63.

Oct 1983 - US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut bombed with over 2500 lbs of TNT, kills 241 US Servicemen

December 1983 - US Embassy in Kuwait truck bombed

September 1984 - US Embassy in Beirut was van bombed

April 1985 - a restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid was bombed

August 1985 - a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are killed

November 1985 - Achille Lauro cruise ship was hijacked and we watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger list and executed.

April 1986 - TWA Flight 840 was bombed in April of 1986, killing 4

1988 - Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in was bombed killing 259.

January 1993 - two CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.

February 1993 - a group of terrorists are arrested after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured.

November 1995 a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women.

June of 1996 - truck bomb explodes only 35 yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over 500.

US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These attacks were planned with precision, they kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back to sleep.

12 October 2000 - The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war

11 September 2001 – New York and Washington DC about 3500 killed, number of injuries?????

Aeri,

If you happen to make it back here, I would like to ask you a couple of questions:

One thing I'm trying to understand (and this is sincere) is...if I'm not mistaken, you think that a person noticing a child being abused in any way should intervene. Is this correct?

Then, if that's correct, why shouldn't the US intervene when it sees that 1. Her people are in jeopardy, 2. The world may be in jeopardy (still waiting on the final word of that, of course) and 3. the people of that nation are being sorely abused, subject to torture of every kind...rape, beatings, mutilation USA Today

Also, you mentioned a book you read. Have you read others along this line, and books that oppose that view? I would like to know, because I would like to understand your view better. I would like to read these, and even more, because this has become a subject of extreme interest to me. I would like for Zorweb and Slappy, and others still to share what books they have read as well.

Aeri, I've got to be honest with you. I don't know how you have drawn your conclusions. I do see some of the issues you talk about. I feel so bad for that boy who lost his arms, and many other people who have died in this war...and for those who died on 9-11, and those who died under Saddam's rule. Any way you look at it, this is a bad situation.

I took American Gov't in middle school, high school, and college. But, I still feel like there is a hole in my understanding of our gov't...particularly as it pertains to current events. That is why I'm asking what you read, and not for any ulterior motives you might think. I do not wish to defame you here.

Thanks,

Petals

[ April 18, 2003, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]

Petals, your link to USA today goes to an advertisement, not a the article.

Thanks, Zorweb. Does it work for you now? I think I fixed it.

Zuzu:

First of all, I'm looking at this situation in the same light as you are, I think. The only difference between us is that you support one side and I support the other. I don't blame you for that, it's just your opinion.

In terms of the books I've read, the most INSIGHTFUL one I've read, that's worth mentioning is one I've mentioned before: The Unseen Hand by A. Ralph Epperson I know I talk about this book A LOT, but it is WORTH reading. It's a book about HISTORY, that explains how the government works. Of course you see holes in your government--we all do! That's why I read this book--it opened my eyes on the other perspective. THings aren't always what they seem. Over the years, I've read tons of articles and books on U.S. policies and government, but it always seemed like bunk to me. I read lots of books on libertarianism and free market societies, which aren't exactly political books, but do figure into my opinions on the current world affairs.

For a better understanding of my views, please visit:

http://www.lewrockwell.com

I'm disgusted by my own government's actions---we have troops in Iraq, yet out government supposedly doesn't "support" the war--try to figure *that* out!!! This is why I'm more against government than I am against *people*. I'm not Anti-Canadian for going against MY government just as I'm not Anti-American for going against yours.

I have difficulty supporting any one government---I've said time and again--I no more support Iraq's government than I do the US. IF you read the book, you'll understand. You seem pretty open minded----please read it and let me know what you think. It's available at Amazon.com.

Another great book by A. Ralph Epperson is The New World Order. This is a commonly heard phrase in governments .....at the very least, it's an interesting read.

As for my position on Iraq, I just don't want to argue it anymore--my views are pretty clear and I don't like having enemies. I will leave you with this article that appears on my CANADIAN MSN page, but not the AMerican one.

http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/2003/04/18/iraq_bgddprtst030418

I started checking these links (I did the Lew Rockwell one already) and will, when I get to it, read more. Politics has never really interested me, but I can't stand going to the voting booth in a cloud of ignorance.

One thing I do think has been a supreme tragedy of this war, short of the loss of life, is the loss of artifacts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . Boy, does that chap my hide!!! How could any Iraqis steal and destroy them, and how could our military overlook protecting it?!

Whether I choose to believe the best about our gov't right now, or whatever, I still believe this isn't about US getting Iraqi oil. I think the reason we chose the oil fields as a priority for protection is because that will be the lifeblood of the Iraqi economy.

I hate to think that my gov't played any part in the loss of these great artifacts though. I feel like Napoleon's soldiers shooting the nose off the Sphinx. I hate that feeling. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Aeri, if you're saying that all gov't is bad, and that we'd be better off without it, I would have to disagree with you. Even though people do bad things, gov't does help keep us in line.

It's like creating a margine of error. Well, for me, it would be shooting for an appointment time at say, 10:30. I might write it down in my book as 10:00 so that I would be there on time. The higher the standard, the less likelihood of utter chaos, and vice versa. That's just my opinion, as you said.

I guess I'm saying that that is fundamental for me. If we disagree on that, then we'll probably never agree. But that doesn't mean we have to be enemies. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Like I said, I have family members with whom I disagree...a lot. One, in particular, is my Gma. She was influential in my Christian beliefs. My father was too (and she taught my father, of course). We agree on how life should be lived...mostly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...but politically, its mish-mash. Part of that is that I'm still finding my "political self" *giggle*. The other part of it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I have no idea. It's just the way it is. But I still love her very much. I admire her in many ways.

So, even though we disagree on many points, Aeri, I'm sure that we can find common ground <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

BTW, I like your spunk. You seem to have a fire about you, and a unique knowledge of things. By this, I mean you have brought up things I'd not been exposed to before. Anyway, I appreciate that.

Petals

Petals,

I too am angered by the looting of the Iraqi museums. It appears that the ‘looters’ had keys to the safes and rooms. My take on it is that it looks like an inside job either by crooks that know what they got or it was the exiting regime taking as much as they could get with them. Seems that someone should have thought about securing the museums in all that chaos… be it American, English or Iraqi.

I really do not believe that the USA went into Iraq for the oil. Our government as already asked the UN, on more than one occasion to please do what is necessary to enable Iraqi oil to restart the oil for food program. The Iraqi people need the income survive. It is their lifeblood.
If this was only about oil, seems it would have been a whole lot cheaper to just buy the oil on the black market at 50% off as the French, Germans, Syrians and Russians were doing. If we wanted to take over a country for their oil, it would have been a lot cheaper and easier to take over an oil producing country in the western hemisphere. JMHO

There are two different perspectives from which I always look at anything I read about politics and world events. The first are the ‘facts’, what I’d call time, place, participants, and happenings. The second is interpretation and/or analysis. The problem with any written material that moves beyond ‘facts’ is that the author puts his/her spin on their written word. It’s almost impossible for any human to avoid this when writing.

For me, one of the most important measures of a book (or any writing) being little more than a ‘spin’ job is when the author distorts the facts to fit their argument. For example: I was reading something this week about how the USA, using the CIA, is an evil empire hell bent on taking the world over. The writing said that the USA put the Shah of Iran, Mohammad Raza Shah , in power in a 1953 coup c'etat(Background on the coup and historical dates). This spin on the story ignores that he ascended the throne on September 16, 1941 not 1953. At the time Iran was the oldest monarchy in the world having been one from 1501 – 1979. In bringing this up I’m not ignoring the part that Britain, the Soviet Union and the United States played in supporting him against communist, nationalist and fundamental Islamic factions. Almost every ‘fact’ in the article was so twisted to support the author’s argument that he lost all credibility with me.

An aside: (By the way, the web sites I linked here are the sites for the Palavi family and their supporters who have been in exile since 1979 just so you know the site’s point of view.) Before 1979 Iran was the most modern and progressive country in the Middle East… starting with the father ‘Reza Shah the Great”. It of course does not mention the more repressive side of the monarchy in dealing with many nationalist, communinist and fundamental Islamic factions of the time.

Here is some info about Ralph Epperson and his books. They are interesting reading.

Ralph Epperson, a member of the John Birch Society, is an historian, author, and lecturer who has been researching the CONSPIRATORIAL VIEW OF HISTORY for some 30 years. CONSPIRATORIAL VIEW OF HISTORY is the view that the major events of the past, the revolutions, the wars, the depressions and the revolutions, have been planned years in advance by a central conspiracy. He has written or produced two "best selling" books entitled THE UNSEEN HAND and THE NEW WORLD ORDER, six booklets, and eleven videos. He is a graduate of the University of Arizona but freely admits that what he has learned since graduation has taught him that most of what he learned in college in History and Political Science simply is not true. He proudly states that his research has proven to him that there has been an active conspiracy in the world planning major wars, depressions, and inflations years in advance.
Many of those who have read his material and viewed his videos state that they are the best in the market on this subject. If you want to know how this conspiracy has operated in the world from one of the theory's best teachers and writers, you will want to obtain some or all of his materials.

The book “The New World Order” - Ralph Epperson has spent years researching the history of the two sides of the Great Seal , and has discovered that those who designed them committed America to what has been called "A Secret Destiny". This future destiny is so unpleasant that those who wanted the change it entails had to conceal that truth in symbols.

Basically this is a rather old and overworked theory that says that the founding fathers of the United States started it all in a plan to prepare the world for the coming of the anti-Christ, that they were basically devil worshipers ready to deliver the world to the demonic. There are tons of books, articles and web sites that explain how we are all being used and blindly being led to accept the anti-Christ.

My take on the CONSPIRATORIAL VIEW OF HISTORY is that it’s not very likely to be true. Sure there are big money and influential people who seem to be above the law and above the government. But who they are changes constantly over time. In this world there are so many factions in every country that it’s impossible for any one person or group to control all things. People just don’t get along that well… there is always infighting and back stabbing with each person having their own agenda.

[ April 19, 2003, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: zorweb ]

Petals.. will get back with you on book titles.

Wow Zorweb--I'm curious---have you read either book?

Aeri,

I am currently reading both books, the first at your suggestion. Though I’ve not finished them … I’m stuck doing a huge ‘homework’ assignment this Easter weekend for a class we have to take at work. Basically my family will have Easter without me. I’m more than a little ticked off. So further reading will have to wait a few days.

The stuff I included about the books in my previous post was the result of the searching on Epperson and his books. It’s not meant to pass any judgment, but just to post what I found.

Wow---excellent!

Since some of you are actually *interested* I got all excited and decided to post another book which is more along the lines of politics:

Democracy: The God that Failed: The Economics and Politics of Monarchy, Democracy, and Natural Order by Hans-Hermann Hoppe

This gives another insight as to why I'm particularly against government....

Let me know what you think : )

Another rather interesting viewpoint:

Liberate America First

by James Ostrowski

Aeri,

In his article, Mr. Ostrowski defines freedom as:

” Freedom is a very simple concept. It means doing what you wish with what is yours. It takes years of post-graduate study under PhD’s to unlearn what freedom means. Freedom means that when you wake up in the morning, your life, liberty and property are yours to do with them what you will. Of course, that means that no one else’s life, liberty, or property is yours. That’s freedom. It’s real simple. It’s also a state of being I have never experienced. And I have no reason to believe that any Iraqi under American rule will ever experience it either.”

Apparently he does not seem to know it, but if he wishes he does not have to pay taxes in the USA. There now he has the freedom he wants. The trick is that if a person does not want to pay income tax, they can sign a contract with the government saying that they will not pay taxes and therefore will not attempt to benefit from any services or benefits paid for by federal taxes. Hence the signer of such a contract will not get social security for retirement for disability. They cannot get Medicaid or Medicare. The list of services they cannot use goes on and on. In reality they should not have access to public roads, parks, etc. If they do not pay for such things, they should then not have access to the things paid for by the property of others. By his definition of freedom, this will set him free.

” I am not free and none of my fellow-citizens is free either. For one thing, we are compelled to pay for America’s global and growing military empire even though it makes us sick.”

The idea that the USA is a growing military empire is an entire other argument… one that is just not supportable when the facts are brought forth. Though the facts are easily twisted to support such an argument.

On the other hand, if we did not have a strong military we would probably not be a democratic country today as there have been and still are many who would like to removed our current form of government to one closer to that ‘enjoyed’ by the Soviet Union, China or North Korea. I share the desire to fight that off with most of my fellow citizens.

” That most Americans think they are free is the result of the revolution of 1861–1865, which changed our fundamental law from individual rights to the will of the majority. The vast majority of Americans, utterly ignorant of their founding history, believe that whatever the government does is right because it is the "will of the majority." I pity their unwitting nihilism.”

This statement astounds me, the only laws that changed as a result of the revolutionary war is that citizens of the USA could no longer own slaves. So it seems that Mr. Ostrowiski is a little irked that he cannot own slaves. If you read our constitution and our bill of rights, the USA has always been ruled by the will of the majority with individuals having in deniable individual rights. I suppose he is also referring to the idea that a state cannot succeed from the union.. That was not addressed in our constitution. In a large part the war was fought to settle that argument.

” Sorry, Abe, but freedom has nothing to do with elections and voting and majority rule; rather, these charades have become an all-purpose excuse to deprive us of our freedom. Freedom is personal immunity from election results. I exercised more control over my life when I ordered off the menu at the local diner last week than I had with all the votes I ever cast in an election since 1976. If you give an inmate in a maximum security prison the right to vote, have you liberated him?”

This fellow really has a problem with President Abe Lincoln. He talks a lot about what he does not like. It’s easy to take pot shots at a government. He does not offer a solution, well except for perhaps anarchy. I wonder what system he’d would allow him his freedoms while protecting him and his positions from mob rule?

That inmate in a maximum-security prison is very liberated. He had a choice of what to do with his life, he choose to commit a crime which he darn well knew would get him locked up if caught. So he obviously wanted to be locked up. Would a vote help him? Well it will not get him out today, but perhaps he could start a grass roots movement of maximum security inmates and get released…. To get rid of all laws against taking away the person liberties of life, property and the pursuit of happiness of others. But then we’d all have to hire personal guards to protect us from these predators.

He is right that a vote in and of itself does not give a person freedom and liberty. It does however go a long way to letting a person have a voice in their own government. Add to is a constitution that protects basics rights and liberties and we are a long way ahead of many countries. There are many countries in this world who share the same level of liberties and freedom. And there are many who have none what so ever. The USA government is far from perfect. There are no, and have never been, a perfect government on the face of this earth. But we can strive to improve as time goes on. We also have to fight to keep our government from slipping into anarchy, mob rule, totalitarianism, monarchy, or any other form of government that will give us even less than we have today.

Aeri, all of the material you have suggested as reading material is very negative towards the USA and democracy. In “ Democracy: The God that Failed: The Economics and Politics of Monarchy, Democracy, and Natural Order”, by Hans-Hermann Hopp, he seems to suggest that monarchy is the best form of government. From what I have read he thinks that monarchy is the best form of government as someone who is wonderfully altruistic and benevolent will rule kindly over all their people. How does he balance this against the abysmal record monarchies and dictatorships have had through out the history of mankind? I’ve not read the entire book… is this what he is suggesting?

It seems that since anarchy is not a viable solution for government, what form of government and what form of economic system do you think is the best?

[ April 22, 2003, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: zorweb ]

Zorweb:

It's unwise to post critiques of books you haven't read.

You admitted that you weren't finished the first two that you critiqued and now you're commenting on Democracy: The God That Failed without having read it at all?????

I gave you the benefit of a doubt the first time, but this is incredible! How can you comment and say that a book is ANTI-AMERICAN if you haven't read it? Could it be that you commented based on the title and the name of the author?

Please tell me that you're *NOT* that closed-minded.

Your review of James Ostrowski's article only proved to me that you don't know anything about any other political system EXCEPT democracy--so how can you possibly comment? Have you read anything on Libertarianism?

Before you scream that it's Anti-American, please check out the last stats on your Presidental election---the Libertarian party was represented.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I respect those who actually wish to understand another point of view---but I sense that you're just attempting to be the "contrarian"...so be it.

I'll respond to those who are genuninely interested in furthering their knowlege. I have no interest in arguing on a personal level with ANYONE.

Aeri,

It's unwise to post critiques of books you haven't read.

I was not critiquing his book, I was asking you a legitimate question I have based on several things written my Hans-Hermann Hopp and articles written about him and his works (all praising his support or monarchies and his distain for American democracy.) Apparently you are offended by being asked a legitimate question.

While I have not read the entire book by Hans-Hermann Hopp I did read some of the book, several of his other writings and articles others wrote about him and his ideas. I did not critique the book I was asking you a question about things he said. This and other material I have read... that he is not overly found of the USA. Indeed in the article I linked to above he basically says that the entire sorry state of the world since WWI is the doing of the USA. The USA has its faults, it has not always done the right things but it is not responsible for all ills in this world.

"As an increasingly ideologically motivated conflict, the war quickly degenerated into a total war." Hans-Hermann Hopp This quote, in which he is saying that an “old-fashioned territorial dispute” turned into total war once the USA showed up in April 1917 is an example of distortions of history. Yet it was the Europeans who were in ‘total war’, total bloody war long before the USA ever joined the conflict. Let me throw in some more of those pesky facts. The USA did not enter WWI until the Spring of 1917. Yet WWI was already a ‘total war’… as an example the Battle of the Somme, July 1st – Nov 13th 1916 was fought by the British, French, Germans over a million soldiers were last on all sides. Perhaps those millions of soldiers who lost their lives in the long battle would have been interested to know that they were not fighting a ‘total war’. After all the USA would not arrive for several months. The great numbers of people, soldiers and civilians who lost their lives in WWI are not the fault of the USA as he says. The war was well underway and millions upon millions had already been killed before the USA landed. WWI

The great number of deaths in WWI and WWII were not due the rise of democratic-republican but to the great strife that had built up over many years prior to the wars and due to the technological advances in war fare such as the machine gun being used against troops who still fought in the old formations.. Making them all easy targets.

As for his claim that these were the first wars in which great numbers of civilians died from starvation, desease, etc The 1870 Franco-Prussian war trigg...ghout Europe that claimed 500,000 lives. During the Spanish invasion an occupation of the Aztec’s lands… 1518-1610, The New World, 28.4 Million Aztecs die of Small Pox brought in by the Spaniards. And these are just two examples I found in a quick search.

Secondary Wars and Atrocities of the Twentieth Century

Governments Kill More People Than Wars

Since he blames every world problem to include much of the world suffering under communism to be the fault of the USA, it sounds to me like he does not really like the USA very much.. by saying that his writing is anti-USA I don’t mean anything like he is trying to overthrow the government, only that he has little respect for it or for it’s people. That is how I interpret his writing. I am entitled to my opinion. It is, I am sure, the way his writing comes off to many. Again, when a person can only find bad things to say about a subject, they are very biased against it.

You admitted that you weren't finished the first two that you critiqued and now you're commenting on Democracy: The God That Failed without having read it at all?????

Again I did not critique the first two books. I did some research on the author and his books.. what I posted here was directly from his own books and web sites of those who sell his books. I found the material interesting.

Now I did include some comments on my basic thoughts about conspiratorial history and the evils of the Great Seal of the USA, but that was not based on the book. Just something that came to mind.

I gave you the benefit of a doubt the first time, but this is incredible! How can you comment and say that a book is ANTI-AMERICAN if you haven't read it? Could it be that you commented based on the title and the name of the author?

Again, I made the anti-American comment based on many things I have read by the author and about the author. The title of the book and the name of the author have nothing to do with my opinions.

Please tell me that you're *NOT* that closed-minded.

Of course I’m not that closed-minded. And don’t tell me that you are so closed-minded that you are offended because I asked you a real question.

Your review of James Ostrowski's article only proved to me that you don't know anything about any other political system EXCEPT democracy--so how can you possibly comment? Have you read anything on Libertarianism?

“…about any other political system EXCEPT democracy ... Have you read anything on Libertarianism?” Are you saying that the American Libertarian party does not support democracy? Does that mean that they are running for office only to dismantle our system? I think not. That might be news to them.

Because I do not agree with Mr. Ostrowski and I find his article to be more than nieve, it does not mean that I know only about democracy. Don’t forget I’ve lived under other political systems in my life… I’ve lived in several types of democracies and monarchy and in the oldest empire on earth. At the time, the empire was being overrun by a communist government. I’ve a clue. I also understand the the Libertarian Party and like many of their ideas.

By your way of thinking, that fact that you have not lived under the USA form of Democracy, under communism, under a monarchy, etc means that you have no right to comment on any of them. Does, then the fact that you have never lived under the US form of democracy mean that you have not the knowledge to comment?

What you are saying is that since I do not agree with you and those you quote, I have no right to comment. Not very egalitarian, Rather elitist actually.

I am taking time to understand other points of view as I always do. I even took the time to read and discuss the material you suggested. That I do not agree to every word does not amount to a personal attack. On the other hand you are not returning the respect… I ask a valid question and you attack me personally.

I'll respond to those who are genuninely interested in furthering their knowlege. I have no interest in arguing on a personal level with ANYONE.

What you are expounding here is not knowledge but points of view. As are mine. Neither is more right or wrong than the other, except to the holder. Have you ever considered that perhaps you too could further your knowledge as well?

And with this I am done talking to you as every time a person does not agree with you totally you attack them personally. “

One thing about the current world events that has really caught me off guard is how polarized people all over the world are on these topics. So I am interested in information on all sides. I certainly do not want to be misled into any one opinion. But when anyone, one any side, starts spouting views that distort the facts I cannot give their points of view much credence.

I have never attacked you personally. I have stood up to some of your totally disrespectful putdowns of the other American members of this board and me. I don’t know so how could I attack you personally?

I am done talking to you as you will not accept any point of view or discuss anything that is not in line with your way of thinking. Don’t bother answering.

[ June 05, 2003, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: Eleonora ]