Let's see... the last time I attempted to dare share my political opinion on this site, during the 9/11 crisis, I was called a Bin Laden-hugger (absolutely NOT true, by the way!), so I'd best be careful now.

What I don't understand is this: Why can't I, as an American citizen who LOVES her country, think that this war is a horribly violent (duh) mistake without being told I'm Anti-American?

God forbid I say I can't stand George Bush, or his politics. And even when I say that I **do** support the VERY brave men and women who BELIEVE what they're fighting for, it isn't enough for those who support the war. (And bless their souls, each and every one of those who died for a cause they believed in...)

No, I'm not out on the street corners blocking traffic, nor am I screaming how I feel from the housetops, but when I am alone in my home watching TV, it just makes me ill, and sometimes it makes me cry.

Somehow, that is perceived to be against my country (at best) and somehow implies that I am pro-Iraq, or worse yet, Pro-Saddam. Neither is true.

I just happen to abhor war, and I am a someone who would have preferred not to have resorted to it.

Others before me (in this thread and elsewhere) have done a better job at explaining the 'facts' surrounding this situation, and I am no expert. I don't claim to be. What I'm talking about is human emotion, and a desire to believe that there must be *some* way other than war to have handled this mess.

Again, I will thank those who fought for what they believed in, and think they are very brave indeed... there will be no mocking, or spitting, or demeaning - not from me - only respect.

But I still don't like this war.

Sheryl,

Your perspective is fine with me. I hate war too and wish things hadn't come to this. On the same token, I don't view it that the US waged this war, but that terrorists began it, and since the gov't says that SH is tied with supporting terrorism, it seems logical that they would then go after him too.

Thank you for supporting our troops. I think they must view that and be grateful.

I think you voicing your opinion the way you are is perfectly acceptable, because you're not telling someone else what to believe, nor insulting anyone, nor are you breaking the law. I can handle that.

However, I do wonder if they are discouraged when they see others arguing over whether they should be there or not. I think it may be disheartening to them for the authority they have submitted themselves to to be undermined like that. KWIM? (This is not against you or your opinion, just an observation of mine.)

Could war have been avoided? You got me. I read something last night about leaders of nations...Let's see if I can remember it, or find it... Ah yes, here it is: "No earthly leader is incapable of misleading." -Beth Moore

That seems very simplistic, but it is poignant. It sure stops to make you think. GW Bush isn't the only earthly leader in the US. I'm a leader to my kids. We all lead in some fashion, unless we shirk that responsibility.

As for your political views, hey, they're yours. You're entitled to them. Some people very close to me probably share your views, so I will treat you as I treat them, with a (((hug))), and respectful smile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , and silence on the subject if it gets too hot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

I hope this is acceptable to you.

Petals

Oh, and one more thing (to the board members in general),

Regardless of the faults of our American gov't, I am still PROUD to be a US citizen. I get disillusioned with our Pres and Congress and our state leaders, as well. It matters not. I am free and I wish everyone could experience that. That's not to say that there are no other countries that are as privileged as we. What I am saying is that I love my homeland. I am blessed to live here rather than under some oppressive leadership. I thank God that I am free to pursue my dreams and that I don't have to move out of my country to do that.

If you are proud of your country, please feel free to express that. I will be glad for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Petals

Z I must have confused you with someone else regards being employees of the military.

I'll just take one sentence out of your recent post which really made me laugh please offer your foundation to this little fact.

It's the attitude that the left wing and many others countries pushed the the USA to take;"
If I understand your post this was supposed to have happened in the 1980's? This is your opinion not a fact. Or maybe interepretation would be a better word. Everything is open to interpretation. Your posts are full of little tidbits such as these. You take your intepretation and then present it as the facts. If you ask 20 different people about an event they will offer 20 different interpretation of the facts.of that event.

Your posts also have a condescending, self righteous, I am a superior being tone to them but then most public discourse is that way these days. My thought as I read your posts wow it must be so nice to have all answers to have it all figured out.
That's what I find so distasteful about your posts.

Me I won't even pretend that I have it all figured out. I have my reasons for not supporting the war; based on my values, worldview, life experience etc. that's my foundation. It's is no more or less valid than yours.

Hey NB

Will you sponsor me so I can move to Canada LOL

I visited Victoria BC a few year ago and decided that;s where I will retire. That's only 20 years away. LOL

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: KalGrl ]</small>

Hi Zuzu, and THANK YOU for your warm and understanding response to my post! ((Zuzu))

Yes, I do worry about being vocal about how I feel, just for the reason that you mention - our military *doesn't* need to hear from those who oppose the war. I try not to argue with my dad, who is veeeery much behind Bush, and when I do I am respectful. My husband, being Canadian and a liberal soul, has his views, and we discuss them, again in a respectful manner (of course we agree on much more than we disagree upon). In short, I have no desire to push my views, no matter how passionate, down anyone's throats, LEAST OF ALL the men and women who are fighting and dying for this cause.

Hey back atya Kalgirl, and listen, if you can figure out a way to be sponsored by someone who can't seem to get through the process herself, I'm here for ya! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> The west is GORGEOUS, but so is Ontario, truly. Really humid though! And, you aren't alone in your quest to retire up North - I've met MANY! Who knows though, in 20 years you may go through a whole metamorphisis and decide you want Bali instead! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

”You may recall that starting in the 1980’s there was a very big push for the USA to just stay out of the politics of other countries. We took a live and let live attitude. It is the attitude that the left wing and many other countries pushed the USA to take.”

I think the quote you are talking about. Of course that is my opinion. It would be more accurate for me to say that I believe the push came from well meaning people who believed that the USA staying out of things worldwide was the right things to do. It is a viewpoint that the left wing tends to agree with. One thing that I believe made many people lean that way is the mess in Viet Nam.

It is also my opinion that there is a fine line that the USA is still looking for as to how much they should/should not be involved in the affairs worldwide. Seems like so many things it’s a pendulum that keeps swinging back and forth, never quite settling down. (Opinion)

You take your interpretation and then present it as the facts. If you ask 20 different people about an event they will offer 20 different interpretations of the facts of that event.

You seem to have a problem with anyone having an opinion you do not agree with. I have never stated that my opinions are facts; it is you who are taking them that way. There are plenty of people here on all sides of the fence who are doing the same thing.. Stating their opinions with conviction.

If you ask 20 different people about an event they will offer 20 different interpretation of the facts of that event.

Yes there are interpretations and then there are facts. Let’s take a look at the facts

Let's see who did the US support in the Iran-Iraq War? Oh my it was Saddam Hussein. Gee isn't it funny now he's this evil tyrant but back then he was well an evil tyrant!

Now I’ll give you a bit of your chiding back. This is not a true statement. It is a very typical misrepresentation of facts and world events.

What the USA supported was the two countries maintaining a balance so that neither would over run the other. Again, most of the weapons used by Iraq in that war were from the Soviet Union. Iraq also had weapons from France, Germany and a whole slew of other countries. The USA provided them with just enough to keep something of a stalemate going. There were many countries playing the same game with Iraq and Iran… Soviet Union, other Arab countries, France, and so forth. The idea was to keep either of them from winning that war and overtaking the other country. It’s not that the USA was Saddam’s good buddy or even Iran’s good buddy, it’s that we as many other countries in the world feared the instability that would come from one of the countries over taking the other. Some Background

Your posts also have a condescending, self-righteous, I am a superior being tone to them but then most public discourse is that way these days.

Hey I have as much right to have an opinion and voice it as you or anyone else does. Sorry it that bothers you. I choose to exercise my right to free speech. The good folks here at MB have been nice enough to allow a forum for this. I’ve been posting here on the subject because in replying it’s getting me thinking and learning. With the world events the way they are, there is much to put into perspective. If you don’t like my posts, just don’t read them.

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: zorweb ]</small>

quote:

No, it isn't tongue-in-cheek. Selling arms to a country at war is support in my book, whether it's done publicly or behind closed doors. Just as many countries are supporting the coalition, but do not want to be named.


The Iran-Contra fiasco was not an action of the US government. In order for it to be that it would have to be legally sanctioned by the branches of our government that sanction such things. It was an action by some highly placed renegade members of our government. Why? To buy the release of hostages, fund their pet projects and to perhaps sway the more moderate factions in Iran. (Were there moderate factions in Iran at that time?) The action was illegal. The participants boldfaced lied in court and to the American public about who knew what and what they did. Why the defendants escaped prison terms and why President Reagan and the Pres. Bush were not impeached for it I have no clue. Well except that Pres. Reagan exercised his power to pardon the participants

”Later Reagan wrote in his memoirs that he believed that dealing with the moderates in Iran would open up channels of communication. Critics argued that the action took place simply because it was a pet project of the president's; and when Congress refused to appropriate the money, Reagan looked elsewhere for funds."

"Iran-contra affair , in U.S. history, secret arrangement in the 1980s to provide funds to the Nicaraguan contra rebels from profits gained by selling arms to Iran. The Iran-contra affair was the product of two separate initiatives during the administration of President Ronald Reagan. The first was a commitment to aid the contras who were conducting a guerrilla war against the Sandinista government of Nicaragua. The second was to placate “moderates” within the Iranian government in order to secure the release of American hostages held by pro-Iranian groups in Lebanon and to influence Iranian foreign policy in a pro-Western direction."

The thing about all this stuff is that it’s so involved and entwined with so many world events, so many nations were involved, that it’s hard to tell who was doing what to whom. The danger is in taking one simple facts [ “the USA supported Saddam”, “the USA provided weapons to Iran”] out of historical context. A person can always find a few facts to support whatever their opinion is… kind of like reading the Bible. IMHO the more things are put in perspective the closer we can get to a clear picture.

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: zorweb ]</small>

I take issue with opinion being presented as facts. In my opinion you have done that repeatedly obviously you don't agree. No surprise there.

I was being facetious with my statement about SH
"It is a typical misrepresentation of facts and world events." That about sums up how I feel about your posts.

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: KalGrl ]</small>

KalGrl,
Your voice and message is welcomed here as well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

KalGrl,

I'm sure that Zorweb's POV is inciteful. I'm sure that there are those that disagree with her vehemently.

However, I must say that if you think Zorweb is making a mistake by presenting her opinion as facts, then I think you're making a mistake in not accepting her opinion as her own. Obviously, she is convinced of her POV because she believes it. I think she is "speaking" with authority as someone who has been in places and situations that many of us have never been in and probably never will be.

I think rather than taking issue with her style of presenting her opinion, you might challenge her with facts that you have brought up. I see that you're doing the same thing she is with throwing out tidbits with no documentation. That in itself doesn't disprove an argument, but the lack of documented support leaves the argument vulnerable.

I think if you want to argue with Zorweb, don't criticize her person, but present your own facts that oppose hers, and do so with documentation. That will challenge Zorweb, I think, without disrespecting her and drawing the attention of the mods.

Now, this is a discussion board. You can say what you want, and put into your arguments as much time as you want. This is just a suggestion. You may wonder why I'm defending Zorweb. Well, I don't think I am so much defending her as the Reason behind treating others with respect. But, if I am defending Zorweb it is because of this: This woman has been through so much in her life, is going through enormous trials with her family and her DD Little Z (you might search for her story), and I just see that she deserves great amounts of respect. Not more than anyone else as a person, but just for all that she has witnessed and sustained in her life. Even if I disagreed with her POV, I would want to see her treated fairly.

Because she is older than I, I tend to treat her with the kind of respect that I just let her go and say what she wants, as long as it's not blatantly disrespectful. If she has administered disrespect to others and I have not said anything, then it may be because I figured the other person or mods could handle it or that I just didn't know what to say to her.

I see that you have softened your approach and I appreciate that. I'm just pointing out a tactic you might find useful for argument's sake.

Gosh, I hope this is clear and taken in the spirit it is meant.

Petals

new_beginning

I’ve been thinking a lot about your post.

What I don't understand is this: Why can't I, as an American citizen who LOVES her country, think that this war is a horribly violent (duh) mistake without being told I'm Anti-American?

I’ve heard people make that statement and I don’t’ get it either. Your being against the war does not make you anti-American, a trader or pro-Saddam. It only means that you think that war is not the answer.

Certainly that is what freedom is, isn’t it? The right to have one’s own opinion be it the same or different than that of the majority. That is what makes this country strong. If everyone thought the same way all the time (or was forced to think the same way) we’d have no moderating and descending voices. They are the anchors that keep a crowd from all jumping off the cliff.

I too hate war. I also hate tyranny and terrorism. The question that we have all had to ask ourselves is which is the worse of the two evils.. which will arrive at a peaceful/safe solution the quickest with the least harm. People arrive at different conclusions.

I wish someone had come up with a better solution than war. The entire world community failed in diplomacy on this one IMHO.

Having seen first hand the tyranny of regimes similar to Saddam’s, the horror of terrorism and war I did not arrive at my conclusion easily. The pictures of war on TV hit me hard because they are making me relive some things I really don’t want to relive.

You have my respect as you voice your opinion with conviction and do not insult anyone or break the law. That is what freedom of speech is about. You are a good, kind soul.

A thought …….. No one hates war more than the soldier.

Petals,

Thanks for the post. Sorry, I don’t mean to be such a pain in the [censored]. It’s like the Briar Rabbit and the Tar Baby… the more Briar Rabbit took jabs at the Tar Baby the more he got caught up in the tar.

KalGrl,

"It is a typical misrepresentation of facts and world events." That about sums up how I feel about your posts.

Since you have yet to bring up any of the ‘facts and world events’ that you feel I have misrepresented, I have no idea of how to respond to you. I’d welcome the opportunity.

Zorweb,

You are not a pain in MY backside. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I have noticed you using strong language, particularly when criticized, but it was no skin off my nose and I figured that I was probably not the one to handle it at the time.

If the language had become offensive, I might have said something, but I don't expect that from you. I don't think you've attacked any person either, just stated your view of their opinions. I may be wrong, but that has been my observation (with not a whole lot of time to devote to this thread).

Petals

PS. Zorweb, you have provided documentation in the form of online articles you have found. Aeri has posted support of her ideas, as well. I just meant in the heat of it all, one might throw in something...perhaps a source they have interpreted to mean X, you know?

<small>[ April 11, 2003, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]</small>

Thank you Zorweb, for a thoughtful reply to my postings.

I understand we all feel passionately about our viewpoints, as well as the facts (as we understand them), and I am no exception! It DOES make it difficult to have an unemotional discussion about this war, doesn't it?

I have enjoyed reading everyones responses (for the most part anyway, some were especially difficult), and I have learned a thing or two.

I appreciate and respect differing opinions.

Take care... and I would agree, without my having ever been in the military, that nobody hates war more than a soldier - and I would add - parents and loved-ones of fallen soldiers must feel it most acutely of all.

<small>[ April 11, 2003, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</small>

More than once, this thread has been called "disrespectful." I think there have been some disrespectful statements in it, but I think for the sheer volume of it and considering the topic, it has stayed very respectful. However, here are some statements I've found, some 1320 words applied to being disrespectful. Next thing, I am going to find all the encouraging statements made.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hope our troops are truly there to take Iraq away from Satan...er Saddam (This is definitely disrespectful...to SH.)

Because Canada does NOT require you to lose your culture at the border, these people are very comfortable in telling me how the general Iraqi population feels. (I’m not sure this is disrespectful. But it did feel like it. I think mostly, it’s a misunderstanding of the US.)

Are you seriously defending Saddam Hussein?? I could not have possibly read your post right.

I can see that it is confusing. However, the insertion of this argument into the original argument is a non-sequitor. Neither has bearing on the other. (Hmm...I took this as a discussion of logic, not as an insult, but I think Aeri may have been insulted, so I’m including it.)

As for having no understanding of other religions and culture. You've got to be kidding.

No, they tell you how they feel. Surely, they don't speak for the general Iraqi population.

You have your bias showing. That's ok, we all do. Let's not pretend that we don't, though.

certainly you have gotten some lopsided media.

What newspaper are you reading?

Be careful of quoting your Iraqi Brothers

You are not alone in this and sadly mistaken if you believe it.

Oh, you mean Al-Jezeera is a US broadcast?

I have no intention of telling you you are anything, except maybe ignorant. That's only because I am ignorant also, and it's impossible to eradicate it completely.

Anyone who is telling you it is feeding you disinformation.

Of course they also are submitted to rape as a normal form of punishment and intimidation of women by the Saddam regimen. I suppose that is also one of the benefits of being an Iraqi woman.

do you really think that the US, amnesty international and other organization worldwide have no idea of the tens’ of thousands of Kurds who were killed using chemical weapons?

You obviously do not know much about the FBI’s infiltration of the KKK and their disillusion of them as an affective organization.

Your assumption that they say what they say because they have to is ridiculous.. who is holding a gun to their head? Who is keeping them here?

Have you ever considered that perhaps the Iraqi ‘brothers’ who come to the USA do so because they like USA?

This will show you how we had to give up our cultures….

If one carefully selects whom they ask a question of, they can ensure which response they will get.
Again you are assuming that we are airheads lead easily lead around in the dark. Why do you only listen to the left wing propaganda being fed to the world?

I can hardly believe you are now turning against the USA for our involvement in the two world wars that for the most part we never wanted to be involved in. All I can say is that this proves that no good deed goes unpunished.

We are not the stupid, ignorant, warmongers who you are making us out to be.

That you have not bothered to do the research necessary to arrive at a balanced look at the issues.

Couldn't you have claimed to be from France or Germany before making such a statement?

So what? 60% of Iraqis rely on aid for food. That hardly sounds like a benevolent regime.

Some recommended reading materials for YOU and everyone else who spouted propaganda on this thread

Ever heard of pressure tactics?

pretty darn flexible for a MANIAC like Saddam, huh?

You want to stop buying from international markets? LOL..that's a laugh--Luckily for their friendship with CHINA (OH SORRY, that's a non-sequitor)you wouldn't have any affordable goods in your marketplace.

I'm not going to pick apart your quotes because you're the type of person who sticks to their guns, right or wrong.

Here you are taking what you read/hear and distorting it to suit your views.

So you can hang it up on this one.

you seem to have a very great hate and distrust of the USA. Since everyone here is wrong if they are from the USA, there is no reason to even try to talk to you.

Sounds to me like you’ve been calling us a bunch of stupid, ignorants, lead by the nose. Sounds like you do have a problem with us.

You are kidding us right? If you have only seen these things mentioned here then you have been hiding from them. Please get your facts straight.

From what you have said, you are most likely to believe things said against the USA. I guess we are just an evil empire.

There you go again.. you are so much more, well worldly, then the rest of us. YOU choose to read all the time but well we are just poor misguided stupid Americans. Now who is listening to whose propaganda.

I disagree with your Anti-American malarky

Yes, we know how you view us. We are woefully ignorant and lead by the nose by the almighty media. We don't read or think for ourselves. We are the brash, unthinking, silly Americans who must be pitied and put in our places. Our government is the evil empire that wants to rule the world and we, the innocent victims of the terrible government, must be saved from ourselves. No, you don't hate Americans...we're just too stupid to see that. I'm amazed I can put my shoes on without assistance.

not a certified Am flag. (This was obviously disrespectful to the flag)

However, if we are considered to be a bunch of numbskulls with drool constantly dangling from our mouths, then we will not be considered a knowledgeable source. That's a crying shame. (Even though I didn’t intend it, I think this was insulting to Aeri)

I am having a problem with the duplicity in all of this.

POWs are a fact of war--get used to it.

GEEZ!

Now there is a discussion packed with relevance and insight. I’m sure that you have convinced many by all you brought to the table.

Let's see if I have this correct. 2 posts (won't call names you can figure it out.

One endorsing porn and one Anti-American, anti-your own country. Is there anything you do like other than porn?

O subtle child of few words, how sad you are.

Some of the words here explain very clearly why so many are having problems in their relationships at home.

Our soldiers do not need your misguided pity.

But then again you are the ONLY, the one and only, person in this entire world who reads the news and keeps up with current events.

I did not answer your silly rhetorical question because I thought it was a waste of time. But if you need it spelled out…. You support Saddam’s regime and not the millions of oppressed Iraqi people.

So you have let's call it a vested interest in continuance of military actions. Maybe a little financial interest stock in Haliburton perhaps?

you are just as delusional as those you support.

LOL this entire thread is direspectful! I guess the difference who is doing the disrespecting. For the holier than thou crowd it's called expressing an opinion but for those who don't agree with them it's called being disrespectful LOL.

It's pretty sad that you had to run to the moderator instead of just posting directly to me.

You are really digging deep now in an attempt to hit below the belt.

Your posts also have a condescending, self righteous, I am a superior being tone to them

You seem to have a problem with anyone having an opinion you do not agree with.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ April 11, 2003, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]</small>

Zorweb,

I keep thinking about it. I can't shake it off and think, "Oh, it hasn't bothered her." I just don't know and I would never want to say anything leaving you scratching your head thinking, "What did she mean by that?" ARRGH!!!

So, the line above to KalGrl, something like: I'm sure Zorweb's posts are inciteful, should have read, "I'm sure Zorweb's posts are inciteful to some." They were not inciteful to me. Rather, they were insightful and encouraging to me. I have learned so much from them and I thank you so much for sharing them. So, I ask your forgiveness if my words have hurt you, or discouraged you in any way.

Also, as I stated above, you have supported many of your ideas with online posts and have shown yourself to be an avid reader of current events. If I were you, I'd be proud of that dedication. Thank you for challenging us here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I'm glad to know you.

Petals

<small>[ April 12, 2003, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]</small>

Petals,

Thanks for the clarification.. Your post and the rest of this thread have been playing on my mind.

It does seem that for some inciteful is the more fitting word. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But hey, many of the posts here are both no matter which side of the argument they are on. The entire discourse has me really thinking about things. Despite my apparent style of writing (and speaking) in a strong voice, I certainly don’t have the answers to anything. That is exactly why I was enjoying this thread. Sometimes I find it very good to think about things outside of the turmoil in my life. Not that I’ll ever solve anything by it.

A saying I really like is that we must pray that we are on God’s side, not that God is on our side. It’s usually not easy to know which of the many possible sides is God’s side.

Unfortunately this weekend I’m buried in the real world - taxes. I hate doing taxes.

You’re a rather cool lady yourself Petals. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ April 13, 2003, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: zorweb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But hey, many of the posts here are both no matter which side of the argument they are on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't that the truth? I don't know why this is such a hot-button topic. I know that some issues are hot-buttons, but the whole that is politics doesn't get me up-in-arms.

I think some people explode at the meer mention of politics and are convinced they are going to change minds. When they don't change minds, things begin to boil. I've been guilty of this, myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

But, I hope you gained some peace last night. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Petals

This discussion is over for me, but I do want to say a few things before I quit the thread completely...

I think in general, Americans can't understand why others so against the war in Iraq..this is what causes the argument to become so inflamed..

If we were to take the "freedom" perspective, it seems so logical that one country should come into another and "free" them from the shackles of their government. From the opposite perspective, it becomes a bit more complicated. No one wants to know that "big brother" can walk in at any time and decide how their lives should change ...

As a Canadian, I wouldn't be too happy if the US just decided to liberate me from my government---sometimes my government SUCKS, but that doesn't mean I need help in dealing with it....I'm used to what freedom (less or more) that I have. I'm sure according to *OUR* standards, the Iraqis were suffering under Saddam Hussein, but I'm not entirely convinced that it justifies the action that the United States took against it.

Any country who ignores the UN to pursue what they believe is *right* strikes me as an aggressor who cannot be stopped ......this is scary. How would we have all felt if China had decided to go against the UN and invaded some smaller country? Probably not incredibly secure...

It doesn't matter who "wins" here. This argument ended for me when I saw a picture of an 11 year old Iraqi boy with both arms blown off in Saturday's newspaper. This boy, whose mother and father were killed, really doesn't care whether there is more freedom in his country---HIS freedom is lost forever--that is, if he survives.

As I said before...you can't wage war against terrorist groups or individuals...The US should know that--they've been attempting to stop the underground drug culture and organized crime in their own country for years!

The war against the United States has only just begun--not only are many industrialized nations against the US for their involvement in Iraq, but the Muslim nations are fuming as well!

Every American should realize--your President is putting YOU at risk. HE will NOT be bombed or sabotaged by terrorists...it will be the population who suffers...just like the little boy who lost his arms...he sacrificed his freedom, limbs and possibly his life for the sake of his leader.

Peace to all

~*~ Aeri ~*~

The war against the United States has only just begun--not only are many industrialized nations against the US for their involvement in Iraq, but the Muslim nations are fuming as well!

Pres. Bush declared war against terrorists and the nations who support/harbor them. The terrorists are one ‘a person’ they are organized groups with strong backing of countries. They hide behind the illusion that they are ‘a person’. Actually.. When I think of it, they have the look of mercenaries with strong ideological beliefs. Any nation who helps terrorists whose goal is to attack American citizens and destroy the USA is aligned to that same goal. Therefore they are enemies of the USA. The terrorist organizations that are being targeted are not independent.. they are state sanctioned and funded.

The war against the USA started in 1979…. See the list below of only some of the attacks against the USA over the last 23 years. Just in the listed attacks below 4363 Americans have been killed and well over 1500 have been injured . And these are not all of the attacks. They are certainly not all the attacks that have been planned over the years… many have been thwarted worldwide. To say that the USA cannot go after the terrorists and those who support them is to say that the USA has no right to protect itself. Every nation has the right and the obligation to protect itself.

Doing little about these attacks has certainly not stopped them.. it has only led to emboldened terrorists organizations and the nations that support them. Turning a cheek and appeasement has not worked.

I too am saddened by the images of the young boy. I am also saddened by the injuries and deaths of the thousands, well actually millions who has been killed, tortured, etc. by Saddam’s regime. That young boy and his story is heart wrenching. But is his story more heart wrenching than the pain and loss of 100’s of thousands of others over the years? Is it more heart wrenching than those that will surely follow if this mad man (Saddam) and the terrorists he helped are not stopped?

The answer is not an easy one… turning a blind eye and appeasement is not the answer… that’s been proven.

Reiterated List

November 1979 – Tehran, Iranian students attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil.

1979 - Americans began to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle East.

April 1983 - Bombing of the US Embassy compound in Beirut, killing 63.

Oct 1983 - US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut bombed with over 2500 lbs of TNT, kills 241 US Servicemen

December 1983 - US Embassy in Kuwait truck bombed

September 1984 - US Embassy in Beirut was van bombed

April 1985 - a restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid was bombed

August 1985 - a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are killed

November 1985 - Achille Lauro cruise ship was hijacked and we watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger list and executed.

April 1986 - TWA Flight 840 was bombed in April of 1986, killing 4

1988 - Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in was bombed killing 259.

January 1993 - two CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.

February 1993 - a group of terrorists are arrested after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured.

November 1995 a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women.

June of 1996 - truck bomb explodes only 35 yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over 500.

US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These attacks were planned with precision, they kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back to sleep.

12 October 2000 - The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war

11 September 2001 – New York and Washington DC about 3500 killed, number of injuries?????