Zorweb:

You've chosen to comment on an article I posted simply for interest's sake. I didn't write the article, nor do I necessarily *buy* what is written in it. Quite frankly, I would have been more interested in reading your response to my question regarding troops invading the United States, but I digress....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you look at every action of every other country in the world and good, and all actions of the USA as evil… then you are very anti-USA. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I objectively examine every side of the story and come to a conclusion that the U.S. government is fighting this war for another reason other than 'freedom', that makes me anti-USA? Very interesting---seeing as you're from a country that extols the virtues of freedom of speech, I would think you'd understand that it is my O P I N I O N and I am entitled to it. I never once mentioned anything about *good* or *evil*--those are YOUR words...

Keep in mind Zorweb, that I am *NOT* an American. I am patriotic to my *OWN* country, NOT YOURS. If an American who has lived, breathed, voted and reaped the benefits of their country was to be unpatriotic, you *MAY* have a point, but that certainly isn't the case here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have yet to hear you say one good thing about the USA.. you only show contempt and dislike for us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've said time and time again that I believe the American people are being shafted by their government...I don't see that as contempt or dislike. Please point out the examples of my "contempt" and "dislike" in my post....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Our soldiers do not need your misguided pity.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How is my pity "misguided"? Do you speak for every soldier fighting in Iraq? Have you considered that perhaps, just as your soldiers have no use for my "pity", that the Iraqi people have no use for American intervention into their culture? Just a thought....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But then again you are the ONLY, the one and only, person in this entire world who reads the news and keeps up with current events.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am?

~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~

TheNoteBookDude:

I truly feel for what you've been through and for your son. I hope you can understand that I bear no ill will toward the American people.

Did you read my lengthy message about 2 posts up? It quoted the original words of US Ambassador April Glaspie prior to the Gulf War in 1991, where she told Iraq that the United States had no interest in Kuwait. Had the United States had no interest, why were you forced to fight that war in the first place? If that war was faught under false pretenses, just what UNFINISHED BUSINESS is the military tending to presently?

I'm curious---not being disrespectful---from your viewpoint--do the actions of the US Ambassador make any sense at all? What was the government of Iraq to think after having heard the answer that April Glaspie gave?

Aeri,

I don&#8217;t have time for a long response right now.. will do that later but I just have to say something&#8230;

&#8221;Quite frankly, I would have been more interested in reading your response to my question regarding troops invading the United States, but I digress....

I did not answer your silly rhetorical question because I thought it was a waste of time. But if you need it spelled out&#8230;. How I would feel about troops invading the USA? If you don&#8217;t see the difference between the coalition going in to rout out an oppressive regime, to get rid of WMD, and to break one more link of worldwide terrorist chain and some country invading the USA then there is not much I can tell you. You support Saddam&#8217;s regime and not the millions of oppressed Iraqi people. The regime is guilty of the most horrible crimes against humanity. I find that to be a morally bankrupt position. But then again that is JMHO.

Did you hear that most who work for Saddam&#8217;s regime, to include 'Baghdad Bob&#8217;, did not show up for work today? If I were an Iraqi and I were not a member of the Saddam&#8217;s sick regime, I&#8217;d be dancing in the streets like very large groups of Iraqi&#8217;s are doing today. Now that Saddam&#8217;s regime is gone this morning, the oppressed in Iraq are cheering and forming spontaneous rallies of some very happy, free people.

Watching the spontaneous relays this morning, all I can say is that it&#8217;s amazing how strong the human spirit is. Even after all of these years of oppression, the Iraqi people still kept their independence privately. They may have mouthed their forced support of Saddam, but in their souls all wanted to be free of a tyrant.

To quote a Shiite Leader in Iraq this morning: The tyrant.. is finished

The notion that free people should sit back and do nothing against oppression has taken a huge blow.

--- added at lunch time

See the post below&#8230;. It brings up a very good point.

The USA, and much of the world has been under attack by terrorist forces since 1979. These attacks amount to acts of war. Several of the attacks were carried out on USA homeland. The 9/11 attack was of course the most devastating. Over 3500 Americans were killed that day, many others were seriously injured. You see the USA has been invaded and attacked. Those who choose to attack us have promised to hit us harder. So far our government has been able to stop several proposed attacks. Other nations have done the same. &#8230; Thank goodness.

Those who are against this was in Iraq are basically saying that the USA has no right to defend itself. In saying this they are on the side of those who are seeking to destroy the USA.

The way I look at it, the USA has gone to the aid of it&#8217;s allies over and over and over again for years. We have lost close to a million American citizens in the fights to help our allies. Even today, even after all our past allies who refuse to help us, we would be right there with them if they were attacked. Yet these very same allies will not even stand behind us. How sad.

Some people talk about how Pres. Bush and company failed politically. I don&#8217;t see it that way. The way I see it something very interesting has happened. Pres. Bush shook the trees in the orchard and some of the apples fell where we least expected. We have found out that some of those who we thought were our allies are proving to be less that that. But is it always better to know who your friends are and who they are not.

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: zorweb ]</small>

Well,
Just watched Saddam's statue fall. The Iraqi civilian's don't seem too upset <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> and Baghdad Bob is nowhere to be seen.

It's a nice day to be an Iraqi citizen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

U.S. Navy Capt. Ouimette was the Executive Officer of NAS, Pensacola [FL].

Here is a copy of the speech he gave at the Civitan Club in February. A wonderful and accurate account of why we are in trouble today.

America WAKE UP!

That's what we think we heard on the 11th of September 2001 and maybe it was, but I think it should have been "Get Out of Bed!" In fact, I think the alarm clock has been buzzing since 1979 and we have continued to hit the snooze button and roll over for a few more minutes of peaceful sleep since then.

It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students attacked
and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the world's most
powerful country hostage and paralyzed a presidency. The attack on this sovereign US embassy set the stage for the events to follow for the next 23 years.

America was still reeling from the aftermath of the Viet Nam experience and had a serious threat from the Soviet Union when then, President Carter, had to do something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in the desert. The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but stood as a symbol of America's inability to deal with terrorism. America's military had been decimated and
downsized / right sized since the end of the Viet Nam war. A poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly organized military was called on to execute a complex mission that was doomed from the start.

Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her citizens living and working abroad. The attacks against US soil continued.

In April of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was driven into the US Embassy compound in Beirut. When it explodes, it kills 63
people. The alarm went off again and America hit the Snooze Button once more.

Then just six short months later a large truck heavily laden down with over 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of the US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut. 241 US servicemen are killed. America mourns her dead and hit the Snooze Button once more.

Two months later in December 1983, another truck loaded with explosives is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait, and America continues her slumber.

The following year, in September 1984, another van was driven into the gates of the US Embassy in Beirut and America slept.

Soon the terrorism spreads to Europe. In April 1985 a bomb explodes in a restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid.

Then in August a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are killed and the Snooze Alarm is buzzing louder and louder as US soil is continually attacked.

Fifty-nine days later a cruise ship, the Achille Lauro is hijacked and we watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger list and executed. The terrorists then shift their tactics to bombing civilian airliners when they bomb TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986 that killed 4 and the most tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988,
killing 259.

America wants to treat these terrorist acts as crimes; in fact we are still trying to bring these people to trial. These are acts of war..
the Wake Up alarm is louder and louder.

The terrorists decide to bring the fight to America. In January 1993, two CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia. The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are arrested after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured.

Still this is a crime and not an act of war? The Snooze alarm is depressed again.

Then in November 1995 a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women. A few months later
in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only 35 yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over 500.

The terrorists are getting braver and smarter as they see that America does not respond decisively. They move to coordinate their attacks in a simultaneous attack on two US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These attacks were planned with precision, they kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back to sleep.

The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on 12 October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war, but we sent the FBI to investigate the crime and went back to sleep.

And of course you know the events of 11 September 2001. Most Americans think this was the first attack against US soil or in America. How wrong
they are. America has been under a constant attack since 1979 and we chose to hit the snooze alarm and roll over and go back to sleep.

In the news lately we have seen lots of finger pointing from every high official in government over what they knew and what they didn't know.

But if you've read the papers and paid a little attention I think you can see exactly what they knew. You don't have to be in the FBI or CIA or on the National Security Council to see the pattern that has been developing since 1979. The President is right on when he says we are engaged in a war.

I think we have been in a war for the past 23 years and it will continue until we as a people decide enough is enough.

America has to "Get out of Bed" and act decisively now. America has changed forever. We have to be ready to pay the price and make the sacrifice to ensure our way of life continues. We cannot afford to hit the Snooze Button again and roll over and go back to sleep. We have to make the terrorists know that in the words of Admiral Yamamoto after the attack on Pearl Harbor
"that all they have done is to awaken a sleeping giant."

Thank you very much.
Dan Ouimette - Pensacola Civitan
19 Feb 2003

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

Z

Let's see who did the US support in the Iran-Iraq War? Oh my it was Saddam Hussein. Gee isn't it funny now he's this evil tyrant but back then he was well an evil tyrant! LOL You are so good at spewing the party line and presenting it as facts but everything you have posted is your opinion. And hardly an unbiased one at that. If I remember correctly both you and your H are civilan employees of the US military? So you have let's call it a vested interest in continuance of military actions. Maybe a little financial interest stock in Haliburton perhaps?

The sad thing you really think that you know what you are talking about but sadly you are just as delusional as those you support. Adn that's my opinion and as far as I know I am still entitled to one.

"I understand small business growth. I was one. - George Bush 2.19.00

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: KalGrl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's see who did the US support in the Iran-Iraq War? Oh my it was Saddam Hussein. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not entirely accurate. The US supported Iraq AND Iran. It was known as the Iran-Contras scandal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KalGrl:
<strong>The sad thing you really think that you know what you are talking about but sadly you are just as delusional as those you support. Adn that's my opinion and as far as I know I am still entitled to one.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KalGrl,

You are entitled to an opinion, but on this board you are expected to express it respectfully. Please remember that.

Everyone,

This conversation should go on. Different opinions should be expressed. Let us all remember to do so in a respectful way so that discussion doesn't degenerate into fighting.

Thanks,
Nokomis

LOL this entire thread is direspectful! I could point out to you several disrespectful threads. I guess the difference who is doing the disrespecting. For the holier than thou crowd it's called expressing an opinion but for those who don't agree with them it's called being disrespectful LOL. Differences of opinion should be expressed as long as they aren't that different. Make sense to me.

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: KalGrl ]</small>

Your message is the only one I have seen so far calling another member delusional. Other posters on this thread have been commented to in the past. Your post also drew a complaint, and it wasn't from Zorweb.

Hey Takola....

I hope that was tongue-in-cheek---since during the entire Iran/Iraq war the US publically supported IRAQ and SECRETLY sold ammunitions to Iran. That's why we had the Iran Contra HEARINGS....Oliver North wasn't exactly SUPPOSED to have done what he did....

This is precisely why I don't support ANY western intervention in the middle east....too many ulterior motives.

...and for the record....war can only be waged against NATIONS, not individuals or groups--this is why the United States should tread softly when invading largely Muslim, middle eastern countries.....Declaring war will INCREASE acts of terrorism on American soil--not prevent it.

Forgive me for sounding like an alarmist, but did you notice that when everyone was declaring that Iraq was "FREE" from their tyrant today, Saddam was rumoured to have been holed up in the Russian Embassy? Does anyone get CHILLS when hearing this? HELLO? Russia and China are on the same side---and the Chinese have an enormous army compared to the US....Have we all just slipped into a false sense of security, thinking that if Hussein was defeated, the threat of a global nuclear war would disappear?

This "war" has just begun....YES, there were happy Iraqis dancing in the streets today--I was certainly happy for them...BUT, for every Iraqi dancing, there were hundreds of distrusting people, still willing to give up their own lives to protect their country.

The problems in Iraq have only JUST begun.

Did the US not liberate Afganistan recently? How far has that democratic government progressed? Do we even HEAR about it? I'm afraid that the Iraqis will become the "new" forgotten people, just as they were 'forgotten' in 1991. Why wasn't 'freedom' an issue in 1991?

For those of you who are interested, I recently read a book that changed my views COMPLETELY on world politics. Prepare to be enlightened:

The Unseen Hand by A. Ralph Epperson

A. Ralph Epperson is an American (a historian, no doubt) who chronicles WORLD history and how it relates to the current (well, 1984) political conditions in the U.S. Those of you who find my views Anti-American, may want to question HIM, since most of views were shaped by the books he's written.

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: aeri ]</small>

To whoever lodged the complaint come out come out! It's pretty sad that you had to run to the moderator instead of just posting directly to me.

Hmm...wasn't me.

You're the only one who's remotely agreeing with me .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does anyone get CHILLS when hearing this? HELLO? Russia and China are on the same side </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this does concern me. I asked my dad, "Do you think this war could escalate beyond Iraq?" And he said, "Well, yeah." Kind of like "Duh." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Thanks, Dad.

Anyway, yeah, it could happen. I think it's only a matter of time. If China and Russia are together, then it means they might be gearing up for something in the future, just waiting for the right time.

But, despite the dangers, I think we ought to do what we think is right. I'm not saying that everyone is doing what they think is right here, but from a US citizens POV, we are if we are going there to let the world know that we are not going to sit back and take their attacks, and to free a nation of people.

Again, I will be furious, and you may even see me on t.v., if we're there for anything more.

BTW, I thought we were in Kuwait last time to keep Kuwait out of Iraq's hands. IOW, Saddam went in to take it over and we went there to preserve Kuwait's sovereignty. So, is it okay for Saddam to invade and take over a country for its oil, but the US can't (even though I don't believe that's why we're there).

Aeri, out of curiosity (not as in a side show, but as in real interest), what other political authors have you read? I'm curious if you read the article by Bill O'Reilly discussing Walter Cronkite's political world view. The reason I ask is because it may be interesting to see what he says is the difference there. That may explain our differences of opinion. I'll look it up.

BTW, I haven't read all of your latest response. My interest is waning some, in all the ins and outs of this war, but I WILL get to it.

Petals

Okay - I ducked when I came in the room and still got hit by the soup!!!

Actually, I think the origination of this war probably existed long before the Iran Contra situation or even before Iran and Iraq were playing footsie in the middle east. *Those* nationalities have been blasting each other since Bible times and still haven't decided who gets the oreos!

Placating the warmongers is easy - we bomb the guts out of Iraq, leave them standing in the streets wounded, and take plenty of pictures. Blood and guts gives them great pleasure!

Coincidentally, satisfying the protestors takes much less, we just have to provide food and build up the country so they can live comfortably on rainbow stew and free bubble up in their newly renovated AMERICAN built homes.

The reality of the situation hits somewhere in between --- it's kind of like punishing vs. disciplining children.

I woke up on September 11, 2001 to the sounds of the twin towers crashing to the ground on my radio, a radio announcer saying something about a commercial airliner crashing into them - and three days later, I had to drive 1200 miles instead of flying there. My life changed - and I don't believe the loss of FREEDOM to fly casually across country in my home land was a price I am willing to pay - for terrorist Muslim's to run-a-muck in my society.

Americans have stepped back and allowed others to come into our country and CHANGE the way we WANT to live for FAR TOO LONG. It's time to stand up for the freedom and speak out against those who want to make us a military state --- I'm not willing to accept TERRORISM as status quo any more than I was willing to accept neighborhood gangs as a part of my personal reality a few years back. There is such a thing as standing your ground and making it known that you will not tolerate nor condone behaviors that destroy your rights as a person, as a neighborhood, or as a nation.

I'm completely behind our soldiers and what they are doing in IRAQ!!! They deserve our support - and prayers, as does our president.

I'm all for Freedom of SPEECH, Freedom OF Religion, and all those other wonders of American LIFE...

I just wonder what it is that makes people so willing to accept the loss of freedom that they will speak out against the fight to maintain it?

Just my thoughts...

Jan

PS... have at it -- ELVIS has now left the room... AGAIN! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As long as the United States government can convince you that somehow blowing up an entire country to "free" them is just, you'll continue to vote and support George W. Bush and he'll just become more powerful. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, he's only got two tries for office (that's 8 years), otherwise I fear we'd be under Clinton administration forever <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .

BTW, I would have voted for John McCain, and he was a POW, and he support Bush. I also couldn't decide between Bush and Gore, but on 9-11, I was glad we had Bush in office. I just don't see Gore having any back bone. I could be wrong, but that's just the feeling I got. And he is the son of a vet, but he wasn't one, either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wake up everyone--that was your government talking--what caused the U.S. to not take diplomatic action to end the standoff between Kuwait and Iraq when they were made aware? Why did they not voice their intention to protect Kuwait? I think the quote speaks for itself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, actually, that was just one person of our gov't. And I'm sorry to say that stake burning is unacceptable now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> And actually, since that's all I'm aware of in that quote (I wasn't able to vote legally at the time) that the US had knowledge of Iraq's intentions, it doesn't make Saddam's invasion right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps someone would like to enlighten me as to why back only 13 years ago, your Ambassador was diplomatically discussing plans to improve relations with Iraq...Hussein was President then, as he is now ----were the people *MORE* free then?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't know. But think about this: There was a partisan turnover in the next election. Democracy at work. But, from what I understand, Congress said that we could only go as far as defending Kuwait, but could not storm Baghdad. Don't know. All this knowledge is still new to me, and we're studying ancient history in school right now. I'm sure I will be very interested in the Gulf War I, and II, when we get to modern times, and more info will be out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you should ask yourselves---if your government had an ulterior motive for attacking Iraq in 1991, how can you be sure that they don't have one now? How can you justify THIS war, knowing that it's based on what wasn't *resolved* in the previous war? Does the average American feel that questioning this is unpatriotic? Has the government brainwashed you to that point?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What was the ulterior motive then? That article doesn't PROVE there was an ulterior motive. As far as I can tell, we had an incompetent ambassador there. Maybe not, but that alone doesn't prove anything. Do you have another source for that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I await my flamings.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope I haven't flamed you. I do respect your opinion. And I meant to write this to you before (if I haven't already) that my statement that if someone should put out an uninformed opinion, it should be criticized was not against you. It's stating the fact that anyone who publicly announces his opinion has just opened himself to criticism, and so he needs to back up his facts.

Petals

Just found this...

Wanted to share it... And I believe it warrants listening to it...

Soldier Song

Turn up the volume!!! It's awesome!!!

Blessings,

Jan

getting better,

I hear that the reason that Baghdad Bob did not show up at work today is because he’s opening with the comedy act in Las Vegas next week.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

KalGirl,

Let's see who did the US support in the Iran-Iraq War? Oh my it was Saddam Hussein. Gee isn't it funny now he's this evil tyrant but back then he was well an evil tyrant!

The Iran-Iraq War was from 1980 – 1988. Though Saddam started earlier, his tyranny ‘matured’ during the Iran-Iraq war. As I said earlier here, yes the USA did give Saddam military support during those years. So did the Soviet Union. As a matter of fact, if you look at the Iraqi tanks (though there are only 18 or so of the 800 left) they are all Soviet tanks… the T55, T72 and perhaps a few T80. (The number indicates the first year the tank was produced.) One of the reasons the Iraqi Army has been so easy to defeat in both wars with Iraq is that much of their military training and equipment comes from the Soviet Union. It is greatly inferior to the equipment and tactics used by the USA. Also recall that Saddam looked to the Soviet Union and Hitler to model his regime.

Yes there was a time when the USA supported Saddam but as the years went on the US/Iraqi relationship broke down because of Saddam regime. My bet is that no one, not in their wildest nightmares, knew what his regime would ‘mature’ into.

I have had a very big issue with the USA and other world governments dealing with and sometimes backing up tyrannical regimes… with them just turning looking the other way.

You may recall that starting in the 1980’s there was a very big push for the USA to just stay out of the politics of other countries. We took a live and let live attitude. It is the attitude that the left wing and many other countries pushed the USA to take.

It’s a dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t situation.

LOL You are so good at spewing the party line and presenting it as facts but everything you have posted is your opinion.

Really? Everything I have posted is my opinion? I have backed up what I said with as many facts as I could, researched them to make sure I was not misrepresenting the facts. So if I’ve misrepresented facts it’s not my intent. I’d love to know which ones I got wrong. That way I can study further. If you would please tell me what I got wrong I’d be glad to know. (I’m not being sarcastic. The point of free speech and open discussion is to learn.)

As for things being my opinion… some of what I’ve said are indeed facts. And some of it is my opinion. Are you suggesting that you and anyone who disagrees with me is entitled to their opinion and I am not?

What I’ve said here is not ‘party line’. You see I’ve arrived at my opinions after reading and witnessing things in my life. From your comments you may be surprised to find out that I’ve been a registered Democrat for most of my life. After the Pres. Clinton years it appeared to me that both parties differed only by who was leading them. I did not like the way either one of them way going. It seems that there was no clear choice. I absolutely did not like Presidents Reagan or the first President Bush. There were also things about Clinton I did not like… for one thing he’s a sleaze bag. There is much that the USA has done that I do not agree with. When I do not agree I am out spoke about it. It’s called exercising my right to freedom of speech.

I could argue both sides of these issues we are discussing. I understand the points of view of those who take either side. But here I’ve been speaking my independent opinion. I have also been bringing up facts about events, facts that have been misrepresented by some. My words are hardly a party line.. it’s just that this time I agree with Operation Iraqi Freedom. I do not agree with everything my government does. I certainly have never agreed with everything that the right or the left in the USA does. The USA has not always been right; our government has at time done some things that would have been better not done. So has every country in this world, every one of them. My hope is that we are learning from our mistakes and those of other countries.

What I have been trying to do here is more to bring out the facts. Yes, I’ve also stated my opinions but have tried very hard to stick to the facts. It’s one thing to give one’s opinions, but to misrepresent the facts is well, not helping anyone. I guess some people just would rather forget the facts.. such as dates, who was involved in things, etc. They would rather concentrate on guessing the motives and on conspiracy theories. It’s a very dangerous game to play. As long as some one throws out half backed truths and trite slogans (like the USA make Saddam and ignores the place other countries took in the situation), there is no way I can give their argument credence. I’m not saying that anyone here is right or wrong on their conclusions or opinions. But let’s at least start with a foundation of what actually happened.

And hardly an unbiased one at that. If I remember correctly both you and your H are civilian employees of the US military? So you have let's call it a vested interest in continuance of military actions. Maybe a little financial interest stock in Haliburton perhaps?

LMAO, this is really funny. You are really digging deep now in an attempt to hit below the belt. The problem is that you sort of missed your target. (My h says for me to tell you that no we are military advisors to Saddam and hence now out of work, but that’s not true either.)

Neither of us is a civilian employee of the US military. Neither of us has ever been. He served several years in the US Military, a career path that started when he was drafted to go to Viet Nam.. an unfortunate military action for both the USA and for my H. He retired from the military years ago. After that he was the managing editor for a magazine. The later landed a position working for the US government office that does things like the congressional record. A few years ago he left that position for one in private industry. Though he is out of work right now he is interviewing for jobs in private industry.

I served 4 years in the US Army, joining a few months after the end of the Viet Nam war… that was over 28 years ago. As there was no money in my family after my father’s murder for me to get my degree, I entered the Army to get the GI bill. I did my time and got my degrees. Since then I have been working for companies that do work for both the military complex and for private industry. As a matter of fact one of the companies I worked for had a contract with China and other 3rd world countries build the satellites for their cell telephone network. Right now I’m working on the flight software for all sorts of aircraft… military as well as civilian. Our customers are worldwide. No I do not have a vested interest in continuance of military actions. In reality my company, like the rest of the USA, does better when there are no military conflicts.

Another point about our lives - My husband and I both have spent many years of our lives living in Europe, Africa, Asia and South/Central America. Our views are hardly party line, small town, uneducated ‘American’.

And no I do not have financial interests and/or stock in Haliburton.

The sad thing you really think that you know what you are talking about but sadly you are just as delusional as those you support.

You have yet to show me anything to make me reconsider my stance or for me to question what I believe to be the facts. You have certainly not introduced any information or facts. Instead you called me names and thrown accusations at me. It has been my experience that is a tactic used by those who have foundation to their viewpoint.

And that's my opinion and as far as I know I am still entitled to one.

Yes you are entitled to your opinion and your freedom of speech. Unless you are from countries such as China, North Korea, Iran, Somalia and Rwanda. Afghanistan up until a few months ago and Iraq until today. You may want to search the web.. Maybe start with Amnesty International.. They have kept tack of human rights violations around the world for years. I have a soft spot for that organization because I’ve worked with them before to help refugees from Poland, African Countries, etc.

From your comments it appears that you think someone here is trying to withhold your entitlement to an opinion and your freedom of speech. That is hardly the case. Just realize that if you exercise your freedom of speech, you have to be ready for people’s reactions to it. Everyone has an opinion you know. Just because your opinion differs from mine, it does not mean that I am delusional or have some ulterior motive to profit from it. As you challenged me, I challenge you go show me where my facts are wrong. Then we can have a discussion that might benefit both of us instead of a mud slinging fest.

We are both right in some instances and both wrong in other instances. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. I’m trying to find that place in the middle where truth lies. Calling me delusional and making accusations does nothing to bring anyone nearer to the truth.

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: zorweb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope that was tongue-in-cheek---since during the entire Iran/Iraq war the US publically supported IRAQ and SECRETLY sold ammunitions to Iran. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it isn't tongue-in-cheek. Selling arms to a country at war is support in my book, whether it's done publicly or behind closed doors. Just as many countries are supporting the coalition, but do not want to be named.

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Takola:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, it isn't tongue-in-cheek. Selling arms to a country at war is support in my book, whether it's done publicly or behind closed doors. Just as many countries are supporting the coalition, but do not want to be named. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Help me to understand you--your country PUBLICALLY supported Iraq, yet SECRETLY sold arms to Iran...YES...they were SUPPORTING both sides....So, does this mean because there were secretly supporting Iran as well, that they were somehow against Hussein then? Hmm...kind of makes me wonder about that whole April Glaspie incident...Sounds as if US policy in the Middle East during the 1980's was rather skewed..

I agree that there are many countries supporting the coalition---would you be so blase if US allies were selling arms to Iraq? The United States were KNOWN allies to Iraq during that time---so what Kalgrl said was *correct*....