Interesting website. Based on the info there, their role model is Ludwig von Mises, and his writings apparently claim that governments are the cause of war. No government, no war. Sorry, but I don't buy it. The cause of war is evil ambition in the hearts of humankind. If there were no formal government, people would band together and fight anyway, just as they did millenia ago. Those wars didn't spare civilians, either.

and concerning this:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aeri:
<strong>How much money does the United States currently owe in loans from other countries? Didn't it just hit ONE TRILLION dollars?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I assume you're referring to the national debt. It is not owed to other countries. It represents loans made to our government in the form of Treasury bills & bonds, Savings Bonds, etc. Much of it, I believe, is owed to the "Social Security Trust Fund" (Ponzi scheme extraordinaire), and much to banks and/or individuals. Not necessarily ALL within the country, but most of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Slapnuts:
<strong>Well, first of all, I don't disagree with what the States is doing in Iraq. I just disagree with some of the things that they say about it.

They criticize Iraq for ignoring the will of the UN, then they do the same thing. There is also something arrogant about the only country who ever attacked another country with nuclear weapons making themselves the judge of who should have nukes and who shouldn't.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They (well, SH is) are ignoring an agreement they entered into WILLINGLY. An agreement not to make weapons of mass destruction, an agreement to allow UN inspectors privilage to enter for inspections. And yes, the US used a nuke, and quickly realized the mistake and the dangers involved with nukes and THAT is why we don't want them used. A world without ANY nukes would be preferred, but that isn't going to happen. If ALL of our nukes were destroyed we wouldn't have any as a threat of retaliation if another country made one and DID use it. If SH had a nuclear warhead (which I'm sure he does) and he knew NO ONE else did, what would stop him from using it? You didn't bring up the fact that the US still has nukes, only that they try to say who can and can't. SH and his regime can't be trusted with them. Don't you think the US and other countries CAN be trusted with them?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Bush Sr used to say tthat the Gulf War was to restore democracy to Kuwait. Well, Kuwait isn't and never has been democratic.

I just think that they should be honest about their intentions.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could that have been a mistake? Incorrect wording? I was only 16 when CLINTON went into office, so I don't know a WHOLE lot about Bush, Sr's term.

Another point, maybe being COMPLETELY honest about intentions would undermine the attempt? If we had known the US was going to attack Afghanistan again the other night, so would the rest of the world and the raid wouldn't have gone as well, for example.

Amanda

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by smidgen:
<strong>I assume you're referring to the national debt. It is not owed to other countries.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, not ALL of it, but some is, yes. And the funny thing about money owed to other countries, is that often times, they owe US, too! Both countries owe the other, the debts for some reason don't cancel each other out.

A point on inter-country debt. One reason FOR it is it is a peacekeeping method all of it's own. Would you (assuming you are a normal person) go and attack someone who owed you money? (Yes, criminals do, but they aren't "normal" IMO)

I can't remember what class it was that we talked about this, but it was sure an interesting conversation!

Amanda

<small>[ March 22, 2003, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: ace61502 ]</small>

Treading on thin ice here ----

But as I recall from that 'economics' standard that I studied oh so very long ago --- the 'national debt' that the US owes, is within. We lively product gathering overindulging citizens of the US have a tendancy to live on borrowed money - and we borrow it from our children and grandchildren who will be so fortunate as to have income in their youth to pay the taxes we are spending in our old age (or relatively old age - in my case <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

As my daughter remarked just yesterday, I'm borrowing money to put her through college so she can pay off my Sr. care center bills... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Lucky woman am I. Not sure what she plans to do with my IRA that I've been investing in for more than twenty years, but I'm sure she has a use for it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The travesty here is not that we invaded Iraq, or that the US is 'pushing their weight around', or even that we are playing the role of 'earthwide police' that has been stuck on the US for centuries - but rather that, we have the grace to uphold the standards the world desires to live by - often supporting their failures and disadvantages with our own money while turning the other cheek and allowing them to slap us for doing so. Because we believe in the freedom of speech and the right to say and do as we/you believe you want to do - we stick out our necks to support your right to do so.

Often as a nation (in general) we disagree with the diabolic anti-american mumbo that rises up in the media in our own country and others, yet we provide the network of media, the reporters, the newspapers, and other resources for it to be spouted. No other country in the world has the resources that Americans have to HEAR the garbage that is spoken against us. And citizens of other countries are often not allowed to speak against their own governments in the same manner.

I disagree with your Anti-American malarky - but I defend your right to say it... You don't have to believe the same way I do, just don't try to stop me from saying what I want to say either.

God bless America - land of Free Speech and --- well, just a Blessed Land of Freedom - One Nation UNDER GOD!!!

I'm PROUD to be an AMERICAN!!!

Jan

Very well said Jan!

*standing ovation*

Amanda

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...if Saddam doesn't run his democracy the way the US does, that it's WRONG....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps we need to define democracy because we are obviously not on the same track here. What did you have in mind?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Many times in history, the people have overthrown a government that rapes and pillages---this could have easily happened in Iraq as well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It could have easily happened in the case of Hitler and Milosevic also. But it didn't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I don't think it's the responsibility of the US to fix this problem. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A coalition of 40 nations publicly disagree, while others like Japan and Saudi offer their silent agreement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ace61502:
<strong>And yes, the US used a nuke, and quickly realized the mistake and the dangers involved with nukes and THAT is why we don't want them used.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I don't think that attacking Japan with an atomic bomb was wrong. Japan immediately surrendered upon realizing that they were suddenly vastly overpowered. If only Saddam were as smart as the Japanese.

To quote The Amazing Spider-Man: "With great power comes great responsability". I think that for the most part, America has weilded it's power benevolently. Occasionally it hasn't.

But the world is fortunate that America is the World's sole super power and not, say the USSR.

My last word....

Just as every other great power that has desired to take control of the world, the United States will fall....I don't want to see it happen, but it seems like a whole new Roman empire to me....

I remain hopeful that the war ends soon....

Many times in history, the people have overthrown a government that rapes and pillages---this could have easily happened in Iraq as well.

Don't think it could have easily happened , but it certainly would have had a better chance if the UN sanctions had been lifted a lot earlier as to not decimate the middle and upper classes of Iraq. I honestly believe Hussein could very well have been over-thrown many many moons ago.

But its a bit late for dissecting all that now. I just hope all the servicemen and woman from all four countries now involved return home safely free from harm to their loved ones...and as equally the innocents in Iraq are kept out of harms way.

Peace!

My husband just informed me that a uh...neighbor? has been taking down our children's American flag. The first night it was thrown out in the yard. The second night, it was rolled up and placed under where it stood. Tonight, it was completely taken away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

So, I wrote a sign, to put in the window, that says:

You are a brave one to take a child's flag. God bless America and God protect our troops.

I just hope noone decides to throw a rock through the window, or realize my H is working lates and tries to break in and terrorize us.

How would that help promote peace in the Mid-East?

Petals

<small>[ March 23, 2003, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Zuzus_Petals:
<strong>My husband just informed me that a neighbor has been taking down our children's American flag. The first night it was thrown out in the yard. The second night, it was rolled up and placed under where it stood. Tonight, it was completely taken away.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's disgusting. You do live in the States, right?

Zuzus,

That's terrible and gutless. What that person did is not free speech.. it's theft.

Seems that whoever did it feels that free speech is ok as long as it agrees with their opinion.

Why not add to your sign that you want your flag returned?

Are you actually siding with Saddam Hussein??? It does not Matter WHAT country you are from… he IS a world threat.

We know that China has nuclear weapons and may be producing chemical/biological weapons. However they have not used them on their own population nor are they threatening to use them on the world right now. We are not attacking Iraq because Saddam is a dictator, but because he is producing weapons of mass destruction, he has used them on his own people and neighbors. He is a threat to the world community as he supports terrorists through training, financing and possibly weapons. This is the same as declaring war against the world. Do not forget that the terrorists have made it clear that their goal is to kill all but themselves worldwide.

If you call raping women (and young girls) that he snatches off the street freedom for women, then you are correct by your definition. But note that it is not freedom to be scared to walk down the street for fear of being raped or killed. OR living in fear of wondering when the next time he is going to murder his own people in mass numbers. Have YOU ever wondered how many more Iraqi’s would be alive today if Saddam was overthrown 20 years ago?

I agree with you that no country is perfect (including Canada and the USA), but you can expect to be a little more perfect than to be a rapist, murderer, and a terrorist? Saddam is trying (and has been trying for several years) to wipe out the Kurds completely. And why, because he doesn’t like their way of life and they oppose his governing. What did the Kurds ever do to him or Iraq that justifies them being sprayed like so many insects? Were they allowed to vote in the ‘election’? We understand their religion and culture enough to know that their leader (which wasn’t even elected to be president) is a sick, disgusting man that needs to be removed.

Just for your information, most Iraqi’s still living in Iraq have wanted us to come overthrow Saddam for years. And we ARE NOT bombing their civilian, but rather we are bombing their government. The civilians have been warned to stay away from government buildings. We are being as selective as possible. If we were going to kill all Iraqi’s we would have just bombed the country completely the first day. We are saving the civilians from a madman. And we have also agreed to rebuild their cities at our own expense… something no other countries have ever done.

If we are “slaughtering innocent lives” than tell me, just what is Saddam doing.

Quote ‘the Ten Commandments do say “Thou Shall NOT Kill”.’

But in truth the Ten Commandments say “Thou Shall not Commit Murder”. King James is not an accurate translation for the Aramaic. (I am a Lebanese Catholic.)

So why don’t you tell that to Saddam. Do you realize how many Iraqis fall prey to that man’s sick mind? THOUSANDS! The U.S. Military is protecting those who surrender, and the Iraqi population, to live once again in a free Iraq without the terrors of Saddam. We would also welcome any who want to come to live in (USA) America.

Aeri, before you leave I would really appreciate you giving me the Resolution # and verbage that I requested earlier. I have done a quick search on the internet and cannot find it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmm....what about the UN resolution that denounced the US led attacks on IRAQ? OH--doesn't that count? Is it only IRAQ that has to obey the UN? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aeri:
<strong>A better life maybe, not necessarily a more FREE one. That's your interpretation. My father is an immigrant...he's not here because a dictator ruled his homeland.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would bet money that your dry cleaner left Iraq for a better life, including a more free one. As to your father, dunno. My husband left his country for a more free life. He left a Muslim country in order to practice his religion (Islam) freely, without the interference of whatever group happened to be in power that week. As did his brother who moved to Canada, and the other who moved to Scotland. My Iraqi friends left Iraq for freedom. Do you really believe that Iraq offers as much freedom as Canada?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Hey--you said it, not me. In fact, I have nothing against Americans OR the people of any other countries--it's the bloody governments that piss me off...

...In closing, I'd like to say again, that I am NOT Anti-American, by a long shot...I am not against any of the innocent victims of these TERRIBLE governments.


While I feel for those of you who take the newscasts literally, I choose to read everything I can, not just during times like these, but always.....I don't trust the American government's reasons for going to IRAQ. By saying this, I'm not breaking any laws...I'm not stopping anyone from going about their everyday lives...I'm simply putting into effect one of the great US freedoms---freedom of speech.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, we know how you view us. We are woefully ignorant and lead by the nose by the almighty media. We don't read or think for ourselves. We are the brash, unthinking, silly Americans who must be pitied and put in our places. Our government is the evil empire that wants to rule the world and we, the innocent victims of the terrible government, must be saved from ourselves. No, you don't hate Americans...we're just too stupid to see that. I'm amazed I can put my shoes on without assistance.

An aside to the two Z's: Really, respectully, I decline. I don't want to sidetrack this thread (and am engaging in a mental tuchus kicking of myself for asking...SEE! I knew I would). If you'd like, you could email me and I'll give my perspective on the use of the word...just remember, my perspective is biased and I don't wish to change your minds.

<small>[ March 23, 2003, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Crayongirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The travesty here is not that we invaded Iraq, or that the US is 'pushing their weight around', or even that we are playing the role of 'earthwide police' that has been stuck on the US for centuries - but rather that, we have the grace to uphold the standards the world desires to live by - often supporting their failures and disadvantages with our own money while turning the other cheek and allowing them to slap us for doing so. Because we believe in the freedom of speech and the right to say and do as we/you believe you want to do - we stick out our necks to support your right to do so.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SJ2

I agree with you that we are the earthwide police, and that we are "often supporting their failures and disadvantages with our own money while turning the other cheek and allowing them to slap us for doing so". I think you're absolutely right about that. Our hearts have always been in the right place in assisting countries in need, but the honesty of those other countries receiving our help has always been questionable in my mind.

Slapnuts, thank you for your insightful and intelligent alternate viewpoints. I needed that.

And I agree with the previous post who prays for our soldiers, and corresponders for their safe return. I also keep in my prayers our administration in the heavy burden that they bear in protecting our country. GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Who knows, maybe the good in this will be the humbling of our nation. Maybe we need to get back to basics, continue to thank God for what we have and understand that the rest is just gravy. We have it so good because we make decisions that allow it, but sometimes we lose sight of the basics. We are a strong nation and thank God would never put ourselves in the position that the poor Iraqi people were forced to by placing a dictator like Saddam Hussein at the helm. Thank God for democracy and the American way.

Seems that whoever did it feels that free speech is ok as long as it agrees with their opinion.
So how come you are bashing Aeri for having a different opinion? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I find interesting the turns this discussion takes on the MB forum. We are here because we want to improve our relationships. We do this (or try to) by applying the principles of self-improvement and respect towards the other. We learn to contain our anger, to give up being controling and to discuss our problems. Can we think larger scale and apply that to a friendship, to an attitude as a citizen and that of a country?

Do you feel the same way when you see some one in your own city with a problem.. Just close your eyes and walk by?
Zorweb, you are a responsible citizen. So what would you do, if you heard strangers fighthing next door? Most likely you’d call the police. The big scale equivalent of that is the UN/Security Council. Not ONE country (or two).

This is the same as declaring war against the world.
Two people walk on a street. One makes a move, the other one THINKS he is being attacked, so he takes out the gun and shoots. Who is the murderer?

war on terrorism
Terrorism is an act of an independent organization. This war is a state attacking another state. Has nothing to do with terrorism, except for the AWE which the war inspires, and for which ace showed us the definition : a : DREAD, TERROR b : the power to inspire dread. You're absolutely right, ace, There is plenty of AWE in plan the US MILITARY calls Shock and Awe.

Back to MB, if you want to build a healthy marriage relationship you NEVER attack your spouse. If you want to build a healthy international relationship you NEVER attack another country. It’s as simple as sticking to a principle, no matter how justified you’d be to do otherwise.

Thank you Aeri, remember you promised that it was your last word... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

God Bless America!

<small>[ March 23, 2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Little_Z ]</small>

Wthaidhy,

So how come you are bashing Aeri for having a different opinion?

I am not bashing Aeri for having a different opinion. She’s entitled to it, just as all the rest of use here are entitled to ours. What I have done is to present and argue my point. I also answered her questions from my perspective. That is discussion, debate, etc. That is how we all learn. When a person, myself included, puts forth their opinion they can usually expect that others will give their point of view. That is the American way.

Zorweb, you are a responsible citizen. So what would you do, if you heard strangers fighthing next door? Most likely you’d call the police. The big scale equivalent of that is the UN/Security Council. Not ONE country (or two).

There are 40 some countries behind this action. We are not acting unilaterally. The message I hear is that the 40 countries are not as important part of the world community. If the US is remiss by not getting UN approval, than so are the other countries that have entered into wars since WWII and not gotten UN approval.

The UN Security counsel in akin to calling 911. The USA, Britain and the 40 other countries backing the intervention are equivalent to the police. All that is happening is that the USA is acting on resolutions and a situation that is already in progress.. for the last 12 years.

No other country has ever asked the UN permission to have a war. All other countries have simply gone ahead and done it. Why is a different standard being applied to the USA? We have UN approval from previous resolutions, yet we are being grilled and accused of something no other country has ever been expected to do.

I do not recall the US ever giving up its sovereignty. I certainly never voted on it.

Terrorism is an act of an independent organization. This war is a state attacking another state. Has nothing to do with terrorism

In the proclamation of war the USA made after 9/11, we declared war against terrorists and all nations that harbor them. Iraq at least harbors them. And from all we can tell it probably supported, supplied and trained them.

Back to MB, if you want to build a healthy marriage relationship you NEVER attack your spouse. If you want to build a healthy international relationship you NEVER attack another country. It’s as simple as sticking to a principle; no matter how justified you’d be to do otherwise.

Even the Harleys say that MB principles only apply to a married couple. To use MB concepts with the world at large leaves one vulnerable to all sorts of manipulation and abuse.

What is going on with this war is that if a person attacks a member of my family, or damages my property I will take all means I have at my disposal to put them away for a very long time.

In WWII some 35% of the USA population was opposed to the USA entering the war.

There are several things that I see important in this thread.

1. People can express their points of view. We have freedom of speech. One of the hardest things to do when people are exercising that freedom is to accept another’s right to that opinion with respect. It does not mean that we must accept their opinion. To say, or imply, that someone holds an opinion because they are stupid is not respectful by any stretch of the imagination.

2. When people put forth their opinion it is more credible when they present facts and some real meat to back it up. To support a point of view by saying that any one who disagrees is ignorant tells me that there is little substance behind their point of view.

3. The truth of the situation is somewhere in between all that we have said here. None of us is 100% right, nor 100% wrong. That is why I asked for some credible sources. Though I do a lot of reading on current events, like every one else, I’ve not read everything available. I want to read/find other sources of information. I know that ALL countries and news organizations twist the truth to fit their perceived needs.

<small>[ March 23, 2003, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: zorweb ]</small>