hello,
I just wanted to add something to this thread..

I think it is all about guilt. I don't think that I could have an affair because I would just feel so guilty and I don't want to feel that way.

20/20 had a piece on this stating it is good to have some guilt it helps keep us inline.

Take serial kills they say they never felt any guilt for their actions.

And to be honest, I do not think that my OW does not feel guilty for what she has done. And that is what I want her to feel guilty for what she has but us through. I believe my H feels some guilt and hopefully that feeling will make him not have an affair again. I can see how she suffers but she made her choices by keeping the baby. And maybe if she really thought about what it takes to be a single parent and if she can do it on her own, she might have made different choices.

So, maybe if she gets married and is truly committed to a realitionship she might wake up and see all the pain she has caused. This is what I want.

I know there are OW that have waken up and saw the pain caused and this will help stop them from having another affair and ruining someone's else lives.

In general, people need to think about others and the people that they never meant and how their actions will effect them.

I believe a lot things that I don't do is because of the guilt that I will feel. And who wants to feel like that. But takes some thinking on my part to realize that I will feel guilty. And this is where my H went wrong he did not think!

Dawn

Dawn

Hi Everyone
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THe first time I ever even heard of such a thing was here. At first reading I thought "what drama queens." I don't see people who feel that way as drama queens anymore, but I can honestly say that I don't full understand the thinking. It just seems to me that you'd have to be giving away a lot of power to have someone "destroy" your life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
^^^
I hope that doesn't sound judgemental. It's not meant to be.

--------------------------------------------------

Katie I had a friend, your stories are simular she passed on, she veiwed her mother as being weak.
She looked at father as some knight and shining armour.
My friend pattern herself after her father basically she taught herself unconciously, how to run from conflict not deal with a lot of emotions she substituted by using people places and things.

She raised her self esteem by concurring married men that gave her power as she thought. It was a plus if they left home, eventually the men would go back home.

My friend started having a concious she told me she will never see MM again. My friend found herself a guy single, they married and had children two yrs into the marriage, her husband did to her what she had done to a lot of wives.
HE cheated on her, had OC and eventually divorced her.

My friend became so angry and hurt she started her pattern again, causing havoc in people lives.
She hooked up with a guy that was bisexual he passed the virus on to her. She was in her last stages the virus progress rapidly WHEN WE TALKED.

My friend asked for me. I visited her in a hospice unit, she then told me how sorry she was. She told me it was a mistake to be like her father, which had not a moral fiber or integrity in his bone.

She now understands her mother pain only because she had the opportunity to feel it herself.
Everything she thought she knew she question
she understands what goes around comes around she came to this understanding befor she passed.

She understand how dyfunctional her father was and all the women he encountered. Her father now is an acoholic, her mother is begining to heal because a big part of healing is acknowledgement
and apologies a big part of closure her father finally made ammends for the pain he caused.

I would like to ask you did you mom cheat on your father? No one deserves to be treated in such a way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm 32. There is still time for me to decide. To my thinking (and I hope this doesn't offend anybody on here) I figured out at 30, what it took some of you guys 30 years to figure out.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

You know this was one of my friend favorite sayings, she recently came to termes with this saying BEFORE SHE PASSED. She realize what she knew was a lot of misinformation from a dyfunctional upbringing, that brought her down a lonely path of self distruction these are her words.Children live what they learn they take that into adult life

Not trying to flame, when I read your story I just thought of her and how both of you had simular point of views. On her grave she has a lesson earned is a lesson learned.

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

malc,,,, if we use your friends idea about children taking what they learn into adult life then fh was always destined to have an affair. her grandfather had one and her mother had one. changed their lives forever as it will forever change ours.

one of the issues i am dealing with is that fh and i discussed this very fact of not gotng down her mothers path.

i quess her fate was sealed.

MALC,

All I can say is that what happens to be remains to be seen.

pops,
I was told recently that my mom had an affair when I was young and that is why my parents divorce. I was 5 at the time to young understand. I know that my mom would go to one guy to the next when she was single. So, for what you said I hope that is not true. I think that people can learn from peoples mistakes. My brother has had affairs when he was married.

I see all the pain it causes people and what pain it has caused me. So, hopefully, I will not go down that path. I think I would just feel too guilty if I had an affair.

Did fullhouse totally understand all the hurt and pain it causes people before she had the affair?

Dawn

Dawn Said:
So, maybe if she gets married and is truly committed to a realitionship she might wake up and see all the pain she has caused. This is what I want.

First, xMM's wife is named Dawn so it's freaky sometimes to read what you have to post.

That aside, I think this sentiment is quite common among BS's. THis is what I know to be true for me - then what? How does that effect the fact that you've been betrayed.

Having every mean thing in the world happen to the OP will never unbreak your heart. Having her feel anything you want her to feel won't get the job done.

Now that's just my opinion, but here's how I know. I mother and I had a TERRIBLE relationship for a very long time. Finally she was here visiting me (years ago) and she said "I was wrong. I screwed up. I was an emotionally unavailable mother. But you're an adult now, what do you want me to do about it now!?"

I was so hurt by the comment, but the truth is that she had a point. Alll of the hurt that I knew as a child I just kept thinking, "if she'd admit it i'll feel better, I can go on."

So she admitted it. She apologized. And I was still left with my feelings. There was still a lot of stuff for me to work out. I think that's why many of hte more seasoned BS's say "it's not about the OP." I think that's true.

I'm sorry for my part in xMM's W's pain. I have apologized to her and as a living ammends to her (and to myself) have left her (and all MM) alone. I have moved on.

That will NEVER undo the 10 year A I had with her husband. This past 18 months if the first time in their entire marriage that there has not been another person involved (to the best of my knowledge).

I did my part. I have cleaned up my side of the street. My sincerest prayer is that they find ways to live esteemable lives for themselves and for their children.

My hands are clean.

Hi Pops, Scarlet, Dawn

Dawn some of us learn from our parents mistake and try not to relive them. You have others just seem to walk in there parents footsteps.

I find sometimes, some of us become what we dislike the most in our parents. My H came from a family of adultry, all of his 6 aunts are divorce
I found that to be shocking.

Me I came from a family they stayed married till death due you part. I have aunts and uncles that have been married more than 30 yrs.

Adultry is something I never seen in my family
I heard of one uncle who was separated from his wife. I was too young to really remember but I just happened to over hear my mother make a statement.

My Uncle had passed, his wife he was still married to, had insurance so she was in charge the women he lived with, really got nothing he also had children by this women.His wife recieved all benefits because she was wife. Child support didn't exist back then.

I remember hearing my mother saying it doesn't pay to be with a married man. I didn't question what she said Maybe I'll try to get heads on that situation.My Uncle was the sole provider.

I know each and everyone of us has to take responsibilty in rearing our children and teach them what effect Adultry has when it shows it's ugly face.

We just can't have a blind eye to it and act like it doesn't exist when we see this, When someone is out purposely to hurt an individual family members must speak up.

This behavior shouldn't be tolerated these OP shouldn't be allowed to prance around family like it's ok it's exceptable. If more people would take a stand we can make a difference.

Not flaming just my honest opinion.
Katie I pray for you and us all.

To Katie
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That aside, I think this sentiment is quite common among BS's. THis is what I know to be true for me - then what? How does that effect the fact that you've been betrayed.

Having every mean thing in the world happen to the OP will never unbreak your heart. Having her feel anything you want her to feel won't get the job done. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Sometimes Katie it's not about being mean. It's about getting what is just due for you.
Some people need to feel the pain & havoc they help to create in other lives. Maybe just maybe they will begin to understand the pain they created, and to have a better appreciation and respect for all life.

Some can go through life and never getting the lesson or blessing in life. They will continue to walk into a brick wall and being miserable. Misery loves company.

I call these lesson LAW OF RECIPROCITY, What you put out into the universe you get back, good bad or indifferences .

Yes it makes me feel good to know people get back what they put out, if they feel the same exact pain, of the people they harm. Especially if they learn from there lessons and become a better person that makes me feel damm good yes.

No harm done.

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MALC:
[QB]

This behavior shouldn't be tolerated these OP shouldn't be allowed to prance around family like it's ok it's exceptable. If more people would take a stand we can make a difference.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what EXACTLY would you have happen? I'm interested.

KATE GO BACK AND READ I EDITED.

But isn't that the job of God or the universe or whomever, and not our job as humans?

It just seems to me that this is an awfully vengeful crowd for a so-called Christian site.

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</small>

To kate

Communication, have a family meeting we all come to agreement this is not accceptable. Not allowing OP in our enviroment, when WS a family memeber tries to integrate OP with family don't allow it. That's a start don't accept the behavior don't allow the behavior in your present.

Ws could possibly sacrafice losing his or her relationship with family. Don't be a part of the deception that's a start taking a stand.

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

To katie
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But isn't that the job of God or the universe or whomever, and not our job as humans?

It just seems to me that this is an awfully vengeful crowd for a so-called Christian site.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Katie people are entitled to there feelings.This doesn't mean they are vengeful or hateful because we disagree.Yes it would still be the Creators job, what goes aound comes around that's a universal law. The Creator uses people places and things to bring about lesson nothing is hateful about that.

It's all about learning, talking, hurting, growing
there is nothing wrong with people getting whats due That is of the Creator.

Katie some people don't understand the devastation they cause and especially to children unless they experience the pain for themselves.

Sometimes Katie pain is a great motivator maybe these people will learn through there own pain and possible stop this behavior.

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

I don't really know your story, but it seems like you're in a lot of pain.

What was most striking to me is that from your signature it seems that the OW has moved on with her life. Maybe she's learned.

I just think it's sad that you're still hurting this much.

With regard to learning from pain, my spiritual teacher says all of the time that Buddah came and taught us of karma. What you put out, you get back. Christ came and taught us of grace. In a moment of grace karma is burned.

To Katie

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't really know your story, but it seems like you're in a lot of pain.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I've calmed down a lot. I still have my kodak moments, (smile) believe me it's not like it use to be, it does get better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What was most striking to me is that from your signature it seems that the OW has moved on with her life. Maybe she's learned </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

No OW hasn't really moved on she married out of spite her attempt was to get H to divorce me this didn't work so she married to get a reaction this didn't work so now she stuck with a decision she made.

OW has a H but she tries to use my H at every attemp still being maniplative not allowing or giving her H the opportunity to be a real H because of her playing games.I feel sorry for her and her children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just think it's sad that you're still hurting this much.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Everything is a process, but you know there are people hurting, walking around aimlessly not realizing they are hurting. They display there pain in other ways by hurting other. Hurt people hurt people.

I'm not as pained as you describe it really is a whole lot better.

You seem to be in some pain your self not knowing your whole story but from what I've read you have every right to feel what you feel.

Lot's of OP & H. hurt also, they act out on there pain by allowing themselves to get caught in situation that are not conducive to neither.

We are are suffering in one form or another either from our own doing or someone else. It depends whether you are in denial or acknowledge whatever it may be.

Katie,

The reason I want them to feel guilty is because so they don't do it again! I believe that the reason why people don't cheat is because of guilt.

Dawn

Actually for the first time in a long time I would describe myself as totally at peace. Believe me, it's been a journey.

I have worked through my issues with both of my parents. I have a working relationship with both of them. I have ended things with MM and have zero desire to return to that life. He calls or shows up every now and then, but i'm happy to cut him off at the knees. I just have no desire for that level of drama.

I have a loving relationship with a wonderful single man and we are planning a family together.

I will be honest and say that I don't fully understand the path that most marriages take. Of the people that I know who are married I can only think of one happy couple. Our relationship works for us, but the idea of marriage scares me to death. I've seen/lived too much to have some pie in the sky, fanciful view of the whole thing.

If nothing else, reading here has helped me understand what I DONT want. I guess we'll just have to see how it all shakes out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Dawn71:
<strong>Katie,

The reason I want them to feel guilty is because so they don't do it again! I believe that the reason why people don't cheat is because of guilt.

Dawn</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt guilty about MM's w (in the beginning) and I kept doing it for a loooooong time. We even did it in their bed. The guilt passed. (or was masked as righteous indignation)

Self love lead me out of my EMA FAR sooner than guilt ever did.

Katie I respect your honesty you have every right to be afraid so am I.

I don't ever want to relive this nightmare again I was reading a post on this forum I believe It was explaining the excitement of an affair because of the newness of having someoneelse when that's gone they explore other option.

This is scary within itself, I choose to be just as I am.

MALC,

Can I ask you a personal question, and please feel free to not answer if you think it's too personal.

This is a total thread jack, but I often wonder about stuff like this.

Here's your signature
Married 5yrs 8/25/97
separated 3/98 so he moved out?
H & I continued seeing
each other during separation
Dday 5/13/00 were you living together at this time?
OC BORN 1/01
Separated from OW 7/02
OW married another guy 8/9/02
H contacted me 7/16/02
we've been communicating since.

You've gone through soooo very much in 5 short years of marriage. Why do you stay? It seems that you and H were seperated when you were married less than 1 year. Do you think that there is real hope for a meaningful drama free relationship considering that this one began sooo dramatically?

I just wonder because often on this board I read about wifes who put up with FAR more degrating situations than I EVER did as an OW.

I hope this is not an offensive question. It's not meant to be.

Easy, KatieScarlett...
MALC is in so much turmoil and pain now....I e-mail her sometimes.

Her holidays were filled with sadness.

Maybe she still sees you as OW in her situation?

OR perhaps she's trying to figure out YOUR life....to help you? Or ...well.... Ummm......

I'm not sure KatieScarlett, what her intentions are.(MALC)

Can we give her a pass? You and I?

Thankyou Katie. I've learned a lot from you. You will be fine.

MALC still needs time. Let her have it.

BTW I told my Mom about her A with Lou Gehrig...she said she wished it was only that....lol....not his friggin disease!!!!!

love ya Katie,
Debi