I don't know why I bother, but I posted a very, very valid post on another board (real stumper)... However, my post was instantly delted. I actually answered questions that a pregnant girlfriend of a married cheater asked me. But I hit the back button and saved my post.

I am putting this here for all the girls who read here, and POST here who are FREE to correspond with us- unless they are downright NASTY. I really do not mind it- because as with ALL situaions regarding BW/OW-- the BW proves over and over that SHE is the one to be respected. SHE is the one that the H runs back to because most of these STOW are absolutely off the chards ridiculous and rude. They are showing once again to us here, that their antics do include deleting any posts that are even IN FAVOR of the OC if they come from a FBW... its childish at best.

Here was the topic: a former BW who is BEGGING the OW there to help her learn how to further coddle the OW. OW will NOT give any visits w/H unless it is WITH HER.. oh so original. The thread goes on and on about how NOT to upset POOR OW. Yet this BW is already dealing w/the H who works alone w/xow, who has 5 children and who has COMFORTED this xow as well as been OVERLY compensating.. and has allowed HER own 5 children to be in OW's company when H was living with OW!! SHE STILL got blasted out of the water by (many) OW there for PRESSURING the OW... for STICKING her nose into THE H AND OW AND CHILD'S business.... for having the NERVE to beg them for ways to get the child meshed with her kids-- for the ALL THE CHILDRENS' sake! She even offered to LEAVE HER OWN HOME when the OC was there!!!

These OW absolutely are cut from some pattern- out of a bad dollar store fun book????? They dont see WHY they make contact impossible! Why can't these mothers see that if they are acting THIS impossible-- how the HECK would they act if they were in our shoes? WOW !!

They scream AssDad.. they cry H0RRID man when they have NC... and then they BLAST an accepting BW and they BASH an xmm who wants time with his child WITHOUT the OW there! Its like a Ripleys exhibit to me.

They also believe that their childrens' father ONLY deserve rights if they PAY PAY PAY.. how can you put a pricetag on your child's foot like that?? My dad was a rotten, aweful husband and a cheater-- and he paid NOTHING to my mother's household expenses.... but these women cry and gnash their teeth and they are getting HOMES, LARGE SUMS OF MONEY, etc!! WOW.

Okay ... I really try to be fair and diplomatic with everyone regardless of title-- but I am just plain in amazement ... I have to show you what got deleted -- amazing...

Here's the questions I was asked by the nastiest, most green, bitter, hateful ow I've seen:
HER
"Maybe I am wrong, but aren't you the wife of a cheater who has NC with his child?"
ME:
You are partly incorrect. I am not the wife of a cheater, nor a BW. You are right in that my husband has NC w/his OC."
HER:
"Don't you also post on the other site and applaud the others who have no contact?"
ME:
You are right in that I post on another board as Giovanna123. You are wrong in that I absolutely do not "applaud" anyone for NC. I find it to be a very sad situation- I don't applaud any child's misfortune. I *do* applaud and support anyone who finds a way (with or without contact) to get past such a nightmare with any sanity left, and who also manages to find joy again. I do also applaud any former BW who accepts and handles C. Its wonderful.
HER:
"How are you a "former" wife? Are you now divorced?"
ME
I'm a former "BW". My H's betrayal was in the past- we are very much past that part of our lives and the title of BW has no relevance anymore.

My H's past betrayal, my former title, nor the NC situation has anything to do with my view on this thread. I do not agree with keeping a child from a parent. I also do not agree that any BW should be the one to decide NC. I also did not control or decide on NC in my own M, my H and OW made decisions that led to that. As you mentioned yourself in this thread- the OC is H and xow's child and the outcome is solely the burden of OW and H. I had no hand in creating the child, and the child is not mine.

It is my duty to control major life decisions relating to my children and to protect them from harm. It is also my duty to afford my children the right to be loved and cared for by their father no matter how I may feel about him, ever. [/QUOTE]

So there you have it-- pure, sheer confirmation of WHY the BWs here are posting about OW so much-- this is the REALITY of an xow and how they are 99% of the time!! If they WERENT this way-- we'd be talking about OTHER THINGS! But these womna are in our many of our lives-- how can you NOT talk about such CRAP that you have to deal with as an ADULT!! ITS unbelievable!!!

**Saying this in my Jack Nicholson voice**

"They can't handle the truth".... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

LOVE your response-- Angel! LOLOLOLOLOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Of course you KNOW I heard Jack's exact voice because me and H LOVE that movie- I laughed so hard!

A few of the OW were speaking the same theories as me w/much harsher words.... but oh well those particlar fow GET it... so titles mean anything to me, its deny truths to be brought to the light.

LOVE your response-- Angel! LOLOLOLOLOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Of course you KNOW I heard Jack's exact voice because me and H LOVE that movie- I laughed so hard!

A few of the OW were speaking the same theories as me w/much harsher words.... but oh well those particlar fow GET it... so titles dont mean anything to me, never have. Its denying truths to be allowed to be brought to the light - whether you are an ow or bs... that drives me nuts.

<small>[ February 03, 2005, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>

I read that thread and the one about Lynn, both of which put me in a particularly foul mood. I can't stand people being so purposefully obtuse and selfish. If you read both threads together you can see the stupidity so clearly. In the one bashing Lynn, they are all for C and how NC is so terrible that those who are in NC are going to burn in h*ll. Then as soon as someone wants C, then it's poor little ow , she shouldn't be expected to share HER child. Give her time, SHE'S in pain!! Funny thing is it takes them NO time to get c.s. At one point they tried to make that woman feel guilty for being m'd. Then advised her to leave her H! It was all so incredible and ludicrous.

It was therapeutic though. I'm now POSITIVE that NC was the best choice. My ow would definitely fit in with the crowd who doesn't get it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> I read that thread and the one about Lynn, both of which put me in a particularly foul mood. I can't stand people being so purposefully obtuse and selfish. If you read both threads together you can see the stupidity so clearly. In the one bashing Lynn, they are all for C and how NC is so terrible that those who are in NC are going to burn in h*ll. Then as soon as someone wants C, then it's poor little ow , she shouldn't be expected to share HER child. Give her time, SHE'S in pain!! Funny thing is it takes them NO time to get c.s. At one point they tried to make that woman feel guilty for being m'd. Then advised her to leave her H! It was all so incredible and ludicrous.

It was therapeutic though. I'm now POSITIVE that NC was the best choice. My ow would definitely fit in with the crowd who doesn't get it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I posted on both those threads....and I'm for nc. I have my personal feelings about it, and have voiced WHY I feel that way with also adding it is my own selfish feelings. One thing we need to look at here though is that just as your board is for your purpose and you ladies do allow me to post (and tolarate me) you also vent and have that right. It's your board to do so. Just as the ow over there are in there own stages as well and have that right to vent over there. You know Gio you did exactly what someone else did over there....brought it over here as she did over there but both of you did it in a way that was respectful to the other board. Gio your asking to be zapped everytime you go over there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . I don't think it's fair, but it's not my place to stop it. We need to understand that we have both these boards and they both serve a purpose. We are all in different stages of the healing game sometimes it is hard to accept what the other is saying and it could be that because we are on different sides of the fence and have been betryed in different ways is why we are so passionate and emotional over what we feel KWIM? I will say this........the post that Happy is talking about 6 months ago I would have blew a gasket over here on that but I was able to just bypass the whole thread. Not to say I'll always do that but I've come along way in my healing over all this and it just takes time.

Don't act stupid and post over there, and then whine about it here. You really should know better than that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't act stupid and post over there, and then whine about it here. You really should know better than that </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">K- I dont appreciate you saying I'm stupid. I'll refrain from any further words for you.

NTMO- when Stormy, yourself, JM, even CLO when she behaves, posts--- I post back in a way that is PURELY about the MEAT of the thread. I am objective and fair with everyone regardless of title. I replied because I felt, just as those free to do here, that I was able to have a "conversation" with adults.

But again, as Happy said-- I am always reminded and have reaffirmation of the type of people we, here, would be opening our lives to if we had contact. That is useful to a degree, beleive me.

I dont care how much pain I EVER was in- or whos place it is here or there.. I NEVER as an adult and a human being have felt it was my rigtht to P*SS on people because I was angry- to be a "RACIST" of sorts towards people who did nothing to me or who are memerly a different "race" (bw/ow)... but thats me- and I'm glad I have the tollerence and kind nature that I do to be able to accept people not just for where they come from,etc.

Gio I agree! What a way to put it racist. Never thought of it like that. Really. But yeah, you have a point. As I said, I don't agree that you are zapped as soon as your seen. I don't have any choice in the matter over there though. I still post over there as I feel I have something to offer to people there, but to be honest, because I post here some take what I say with a grain of salt. Some listen to me. I think some has to do with where they are at in the healing. Yes even us ow have to heal from this. Plus also I think because of who I am I can see the other side (even if I agree or don't)more. I think it because I'm a libra <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And yes Gio, I've seen you be nice to us....and even join in a joke and reciepes with us.

Gio, what post are you referring too? I saw your post although I did not read the whole thing and it looks like you were kept in tact except for what you edited? Was it on another thread?

Gio:

I didn't say that you were stupid. I said you were acting stupid(ly).

If I were to stick my head into a beehive full of angry bees and then complain about getting stung---what would you think?

What gets me more concerned is that when we have posters from over here post on the OW board, and then complain about it here---well, the bees follow you home. I don't like bees. I'd prefer to leave them alone in their hive.

OK?

Mary- you didnt see it because it was completely removed in its entirety.

It was in response to the EvilOne's post over there (as I call her in my mind).. but oh well... I wont be back anytime soon, and have posted about 3 times there in 6 months.

In fact I need to stay off the boards completely-- I get more work done lately that I don't post much! LOL... I get distracted at work so easily, limited my time around the boards is best.

<small>[ February 04, 2005, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>

AMEN.......K!!!!

What a great analogy!

ent

Oh gee what a nice suprise.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Hello Ent.

Lol....Here they come out of the woodwork <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Hi Gio <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I posted on both those threads....and I'm for nc. I have my personal feelings about it, and have voiced WHY I feel that way with also adding it is my own selfish feelings.

ok mary, sure, so WHY is it OK for an OW to choose NC for her 'own selfish reasons' but a man who chooses that is an ***dad?

See the hypocrisy?

WIll ANY OW ever admit OUT LOUD that there are VALID reasons to choose NC or as many ow call it; 'abandon your baby' whawhawahwah!

NC, abandon baby, whatever, you can twist it however you want but it's still straight out NC.

WHy isn't an OW who makes C difficult to the point of NC being the ONLY viable alternative considered a HORRIBLE mother?

Sure, jump all over lynn for a position her family took & stood firm on & she's considered evil. get real!

Why can't a self-absorbed, selfish beyond comprehension, OW, be ok to be considered evil?

I mean keeping a child AWAY from it's father? Isn't that evil? Is that ANYthing but SELFISH?

No mary, I am NOT saying that YOU kept your child away from thier dad BUT you are admitting, on some level, how it is BETTER for YOU. And Lynn stands up for how it was better for THEM & I'm saying how it is better for US.

And gio, I'm w/ K, quit playing on the wrong side of the tracks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> & bringing 'home' that nonsense. Haven't you learned yoru lesson yet?

xoxoxo
kt

<small>[ February 04, 2005, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong>
ok mary, sure, so WHY is it OK for an OW to choose NC for her 'own selfish reasons' but a man who chooses that is an ***dad?

See the hypocrisy?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll step in and answer that one KT.

NC is BEST for OW and for xMM & his W.

NC is NOT in the best interest of the OC.

There is a "Child's Bill of Rights" which includes that a child has the right to KNOW BOTH parents.

NC takes that right away from OC.


We LOVE NC because the child is ALL OURS. We don't have to share them, we don't have to bicker about discipline, schools, doctors, medications, diet, sports, etc. WE MAKE ALL DECISIONS. We love that! It's so much EASIER for us, as single mothers, to have 100% say in how we are raising our children.
I can image that xMM and W LOVE NC because they don't have to deal with xOW, they don't have to deal with an adjustment in their home and with their children, they don't have to "parent" a child that is not "wanted" or "welcomed" in their home. It IS best for the M if there are no outside interferences of xOW/OC and the drama that tags along with ANY co-parenting situation where the parties are no longer a "family unit".

NC is GREAT for the adults.


We call them ***dads because they are not being fathers in the physical sense and this is not fair for OC. Once again, all children have the right to know their parents.


It's a Catch-22.

There are days where I say to myself "He's such an *-ing *** for not being a father." and there are days when I say "Thank GOODNESS he's not around!".

It's a very mixed emotion that accompanies NC. We adults (xOW & xMM) are taking the "easy" path of NC, but it's not the "right" path for OC.

So, yes, they are ***dads for not being around and we are HAPPY they're not around.

I think our gender reputation is enough to defend that hipocritical statement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ February 04, 2005, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

I don't think that really answered the question.....

Why is a man who chooses NC a JERK but not an OW who chooses NC for the father?

And CLO you are forgetting that getting pg by MM predestine that choices would FOREVER be made that were NOT in the best interest of OC.

As well as MM getting his OW pg, predestined that choices would be made that would NOT be in the best interest of OC.

JUST AS having A in the first place was a choice that was NOT in the best interest of the children already @ home.

I am not here FOR the 'best interest' of OC, C may not be in the best interest of MY children, who already suffer & have suffered by their dad having A.

I consider it a no-win situation but we adults can accept it & HELP our children accept it as well, whatever choice we make.

Not ALL the children of the world, that don't know their bio-dads, grow up to be poor, hurt, resentful & angry adults. I know I didn't. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

xoxo
kt

KT,
I know you're not here for the best interest of OC, but we xOW's ARE looking out for the best interest of our child and THAT is why we feel the way we do. I'm just trying to help you understand where we're coming from when we call them ***dads. I'm not saying our children are more important than your children, I'm just saying EVERY child has the right to know their parents.

IF an xMM wanted C and xOW did not allow C, THAT would be unacceptable.

It is NOT acceptable for ANY parent to withold C with the other parent, whether it be Mother keeping child from Father, or Father keeping child from Mother. Whether it be xH, xW, xBF, xGF, xOW, xMM etc. - children have the right to know their parents.

xMM usually chooses NC and we as xOW's usually like it better this way because it's easier for everyone. We only frown on absenteism where our child's right to know their father is concerned.

We call them ***dads because they had the ***** to make the child but not the ***** to raise them.

An xOW who keeps OC from xMM on purpose would be an ***mom unless that man was a danger to her child. Once again, it's a child's right to know their parents and to have that taken away from the child is wrong in my opinion.

<small>[ February 04, 2005, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

For the umpteenth time.

If a woman wants a father for her child, she shouldn't sleep with a married man. Find one who is completely 100% available.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

If I wanted a hamburger, and walked into a vegetarian restaurant, and then complained that I couldn't get a hamburger...well, that would make me...pretty dumb!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

If a woman wants to be a single parent, and take on all the responsibilities, I guess that is her choice.
But if a woman requires a father but thinks so little of her future offspring that she can't find a father who is available to parent...I guess that makes her an ***mom.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

well well cheerfullittleone,
i believe you or OW don't understand is that it wasn't only the responsibility of the WH not to have an affair but you have to take responsibility for this too. there is no reason why the OW shouldn't pay the price as well. You laid with this man knowing he was M and that didn't stop you. U are the woman and you control your body but you didn't. And you got pregnant and knowing the WH had a family of his own choose to have this baby anyway. So at some point you had to have told yourself i am probably going to raise this child on my own. And you went through with it anyway. I believe that u took your childs future in your own hands and now you'll have to deal with the fact that one day your child will ask why his/her father wants nothing to do with him or her. u have to answer that question and say he/she was conceived out of an affair. u have no one to blame but yourself

KT....WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Are saying that the ow are mad at me!!!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Oh my god, how will I ever sleep at night? I feel so bad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

CLO...so you, as an ow think that the oc needs should supercede those of the children at home? Sorry. Don't buy it. This is MY home too. MY children have feelings too. And guess what? THEY do NOT have to pay for the sins of their father. Had their dad wanted to see oc, he was free to go. HE chose no contact as what was best for this family.

Sad thing is that EVERYONE gets hurt when two people do this. My husband has had to soothe his childrens fears and wipe their tears as they learned to understand what an oc means. THEY were hurt by his actions. Your child gets a piece too. And guess what, if you are calling him an *** dad, then that makes you an *** mom, cause it was YOUR CHOICE to get pregnant without a commitment. It was YOUR CHOICE to keep a child KNOWING there would be no daddy tucking him in at night.

I think it is wrong to deliberatly hurt children too. However, I have a responsibility to protect MY children. So, two people created this...if he is an *** dad, then you are an *** mom cause you were there creating the oc. And you had no care or concern for what your actions were going to cause his children at home. And, before you jump on the "his wife and kids were his problem" banter, let me say that your child is YOUR problem. His wife and kids don't have to accept that child into their lives. They can show as much care and concern and you two showed them. Isn't that ow rationale? It is no responsibility of the ow for the effects of the affair on his family? Well then, how can you not grasp the fact that the responsibility of the oc is no concern for his family. This brings us back to *** dad. This *** has to jump through tons of hoops and do one hell of alot to try and make this up to his family. He may be an *** in your eyes, but you are an *** in his and his family's eyes. When he faces what he has done to his family, and he loves them, he will do anything to keep them and spend his life with them. He is holding his precious daughter in his arms at night, tears running down his cheek at the thought of losing her. He is holding his wife at night, kissing her hair as she sleeps, thanking god for her giving him a 2nd chance. Does he think of oc? I would have to say yes. But in the overall scheme of things, what you two have done to others is horrible. He is assuming that you are going to take care of the child that you had to have, no matter what it did to his wife and kids. Since you obviously loved that child so much, he will move on, knowing that you will take care of him. HE, on the otherhand is going to do everything in his power to never hurt his family again. He is never going to miss a soccer game or a school event, or an anniversary, whatever. He is thankfull that his family survived this hurricane intact. Just as you need to survive your storm. You wanted that child, despite the hurt it inflicted on others.

And before you get on the "it took two.." argument, well duh. We all know it took two. But how many men wanted abortions? The minute any ow keeps a child, knowing the man does not want to be a father to her child, then the responsibility to raise that child alone lies on your shoulders. It took two to make, but only one gets to force the child on the other.

So, I guess a new word for any ow with an oc should be *** mom. Since they didn't give a shred of care if their child had a father, and since they didn't give a shred of care what their decision to have this child did to his children at home....how much more of an ******* can one be? Or is it ALL on the man? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ February 04, 2005, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gardenbunny:
<strong> For the umpteenth time.

If a woman wants a father for her child, she shouldn't sleep with a married man. Find one who is completely 100% available.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For the umpteenth time, xMM was not living at home, was in the process of D, lied to me about his vasectomy and told me he wanted to be a father to our child.

"In the process of a divorce" is not 100% available.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong>

CLO...so you, as an ow think that the oc needs should supercede those of the children at home? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lynn,
If you REREAD my post directly above, I CLEARLY STATE and I QUOTE "I'm not saying our children are more important than your children, I'm just saying EVERY child has the right to know their parents."

I have NEVER said the BC are more important than OC.

I can't even finish reading your post if this first sentence of yours is any indicator of your comprehension of my entire post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gardenbunny:
<strong> "In the process of a divorce" is not 100% available.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's not what he told me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong> I posted on both those threads....and I'm for nc. I have my personal feelings about it, and have voiced WHY I feel that way with also adding it is my own selfish feelings.

ok mary, sure, so WHY is it OK for an OW to choose NC for her 'own selfish reasons' but a man who chooses that is an ***dad?

See the hypocrisy?

~~~~First of all KT I never said it was OK for either one. It's about what's right for the child....and there rights. And for the record, when I call a man an A**dad it is for more reasons than nc versus c.

WIll ANY OW ever admit OUT LOUD that there are VALID reasons to choose NC or as many ow call it; 'abandon your baby' whawhawahwah!

~~~~~I think the abodonment issue is old and not really apart of what I said.....I have my feelings on it, and you have yours.....let's just keep it at that. Why go over it again with the whawhawahwah!? You look out for your kids, why is it so bad for me to look out for mine?

NC, abandon baby, whatever, you can twist it however you want but it's still straight out NC.
~~~~twist?????????

WHy isn't an OW who makes C difficult to the point of NC being the ONLY viable alternative considered a HORRIBLE mother?

~~~~I think you will see that I speak volumns for myself when a bw is talking about a diffulcult ow just as I do when an ow is talking about a diffucult mm and bw.

Sure, jump all over lynn for a position her family took & stood firm on & she's considered evil. get real!

~~~~~I don't jump on Lynn for a position she took, but what and how she did it. She is out spoken on how she feels, and in my OPINION I feel she is wrong. I don't have to live with her and her family though, but if she is allowed to speak her OPINION, why am I not allowed?

Why can't a self-absorbed, selfish beyond comprehension, OW, be ok to be considered evil?

~~~~~OH Please.....they can be!!!! As I've stated more than once on this and other boards and I still stand by what I say....I really don't think the title of who we are has ANYTHING to do with our actions. It has everything to do with our personailties. Of course situations can bring out the worst in us, but 9 times out 10 our real personalities come back to light with time. I've seen some real dusies ow too. I've never said what you just said. In fact I don't recall calling anyone (almost)evil, refresh my memory please.

I mean keeping a child AWAY from it's father? Isn't that evil? Is that ANYthing but SELFISH?

~~~~~~KT , where is this coming from? I think all the adults are selfish......ow/bw/mm.

No mary, I am NOT saying that YOU kept your child away from thier dad BUT you are admitting, on some level, how it is BETTER for YOU. And Lynn stands up for how it was better for THEM & I'm saying how it is better for US.

~~~~The difference between Lynn and myself is that if I had to I'd do it. I have other kids as well and I would inforce ajustment with them in a tender way. I've never bad mouthed xmm to my older kids at all, and I never will not even to his daughter. It's not my style. You never ever know what tommorow brings, and I have to be prepared for anything for my kids sake. As I have said before.........it's better for all the adults.....at least I'm including myself in that selfishness KT. I've got the nerve to include myself and not use excuses. But again, if I had to share, then it will be and it will be healthy and good for ALL kids involved. Not just mine. Where the heck did this come from?

And gio, I'm w/ K, quit playing on the wrong side of the tracks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> & bringing 'home' that nonsense. Haven't you learned yoru lesson yet?

xoxoxo
kt </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gardenbunny:
<strong> "In the process of a divorce" is not 100% available.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's not what he told me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not a debatable issue. "In the process of a divorce" means not 100% available. He's not available until he is divorced.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gardenbunny:
<strong> For the umpteenth time.

If a woman wants a father for her child, she shouldn't sleep with a married man. Find one who is completely 100% available.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

If I wanted a hamburger, and walked into a vegetarian restaurant, and then complained that I couldn't get a hamburger...well, that would make me...pretty dumb!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

If a woman wants to be a single parent, and take on all the responsibilities, I guess that is her choice.
But if a woman requires a father but thinks so little of her future offspring that she can't find a father who is available to parent...I guess that makes her an ***mom.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Garden, did you forget that mm helped bring that child into this world? It's not like going into a vegatrain resturant looking for a burger....why different. Sorry. Require a father? Uhmmmmmmm Even the most perfect situation can turn sour....we as woman and mother's need to be prepared for that. If a mother can't find a father for her child makes her a ***mom? Okay that is taking it a bit far Garden.

<small>[ February 04, 2005, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by downandout34:
<strong> well well cheerfullittleone,
i believe you or OW don't understand is that it wasn't only the responsibility of the WH not to have an affair but you have to take responsibility for this too. there is no reason why the OW shouldn't pay the price as well. You laid with this man knowing he was M and that didn't stop you. U are the woman and you control your body but you didn't. And you got pregnant and knowing the WH had a family of his own choose to have this baby anyway. So at some point you had to have told yourself i am probably going to raise this child on my own. And you went through with it anyway. I believe that u took your childs future in your own hands and now you'll have to deal with the fact that one day your child will ask why his/her father wants nothing to do with him or her. u have to answer that question and say he/she was conceived out of an affair. u have no one to blame but yourself </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">downandout..........I knew I'd be raising my child alone and so there was no question there. The fact of the matter is the mm still was involved. I will be 100% honest with my child. I pray daily that when the time comes that she will learn from my example NOW and learn from my mistakes. She maynot have her father but she has a whole bunch of people who love her with all there heart. As far as blame.........it's a 50 50 street there.......xmm does not get off that easy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> As far as ME taking responsiblity for my actions/child.......I've taken it sweetie. I've paid my dues.......And as much as I regret my actions in the affair, my child is so precious and special to me, I don't REGRET her at all. She is 10 months and my older kids nor myself can't imagine our lives without her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And gio, I'm w/ K, quit playing on the wrong side of the tracks! & bringing 'home' that nonsense. Haven't you learned yoru lesson yet </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes mommy dearest.. "OOPS I did it again.... " (to the tune of Brittney) "OOOPS I did it again.." I've been a bad girl! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Love you, ya spicey mamma....LOL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gardenbunny:
<strong> He's not available until he is divorced.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe not by your standards, but he was available by his standards and his W's standards.

Maybe you should give his W's xOM this lecture too.

How can I emphasize- at THAT POINT in life, they were DONE with the M. It was simply a matter of time for the D to get finalized. The process took over a year.

They had both moved on. Done. Finished.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong> KT....WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Are saying that the ow are mad at me!!!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Oh my god, how will I ever sleep at night? I feel so bad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

CLO...so you, as an ow think that the oc needs should supercede those of the children at home? Sorry. Don't buy it. This is MY home too. MY children have feelings too. And guess what? THEY do NOT have to pay for the sins of their father. Had their dad wanted to see oc, he was free to go. HE chose no contact as what was best for this family.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So LynnG are you saying you would have had no problem with your husband going and having a relationship with his son? He could have gone and visited him and had a realtionship with him and still not have lost his home and family?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
<strong> Garden, did you forget that mm helped bring that child into this world? It's not like going into a vegatrain resturant looking for a burger....why different. Sorry. Require a father? Uhmmmmmmm Even the most perfect situation can turn sour....we as woman and mother's need to be prepared for that. If a mother can't find a father for her child makes her a A**mom? Okay that is taking it a bit far Garden. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's a weird analogy, but it works. You want a burger, go to McDonald's. You want a father for your child, go to a single guy. (I know that doesn't always work, but much better chances than going after a man who is otherwise obligated!)

Yes, the married man helped create the child...but as many have said here, nobody asks him whether or not he wants it aborted, or given up for adoption. It's mama's choice.

If a woman insists on having a daddy, and then gets pregnant by a married man, yes she is an ***mom. If a woman's requirement for motherhood is to have an active father, then for God's sake find a single man! (I'm not referring to women who choose to be single parents, without making parenting demands on the father.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gardenbunny:
<strong> It's mama's choice.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I brought up abortion to xMM because I knew he had a vasectomy (or at least that's what he told me) and I didn't think he wanted children. We talked about the baby for nearly a week and STILL he had not brought up abortion. I am the one who offered it as an option and I swear on my grandmothers grave that I gave xMM that option.

HE DID NOT WANT ME TO ABORT.

HIS wishes. HE HAD A CHOICE. I gave him a choice because I was undecided myself. He told me he would be a father, that he wanted this child.

WE made the decision TOGETHER to keep OC.

HE decided to change his mind later.

CLO--I stand corrected...you did not say oc supercede bc.

That said, I ask, why on earth do you not recognize that a man has responsibilities to his family? He cheated. He makes amends to them. They move on. I KNOW you love your child, but (and this is for NTMO too) HE and HIS FAMILY are not all agoo about the child. They DO NOT have those same feelings for that child. Harsh? You bet it is. But it is also reality. You look at the face of your precious child and can't understand why he wants nothing to do with him/her. But they do not see your child as you do. They see THEIR children and the harm this whole situation has caused them. It is THEIR childrens faces that they love and that they cherish. He holds his children and loves them and swears that he will never ever do anything that will harm them again. He never wanted anyone to find out about you. You were supposed to be a secret. Then the oc comes. All hell explodes in his life. Who do you think he is worried about? It is his wife and children. Their love and respect truly matter to him. He is scared to death....as well he should be for what he has done. You and your willingness to participate in the near destruction of his family are not a concern. He views you a bit differently now. As for the oc? Well sad to say, but everyone is hurt right? So while you are all worried about your childs wellbeing (as you should be) realize that they (XMM/BW) are only worried about the ramifications this is having on thier family.

Oh, and the OW and the XMM were the only ones responsible here.....they can only blame themseles for the destruction to the children. That lies equally on both shoulders. His childrens pain is your fault too. You can't blame only him for everything. You helped created all this for everyone. You can't expect the BW and her children to clean up your mess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gardenbunny:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
<strong> Garden, did you forget that mm helped bring that child into this world? It's not like going into a vegatrain resturant looking for a burger....why different. Sorry. Require a father? Uhmmmmmmm Even the most perfect situation can turn sour....we as woman and mother's need to be prepared for that. If a mother can't find a father for her child makes her a A**mom? Okay that is taking it a bit far Garden. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's a weird analogy, but it works. You want a burger, go to McDonald's. You want a father for your child, go to a single guy. (I know that doesn't always work, but much better chances than going after a man who is otherwise obligated!)

Yes, the married man helped create the child...but as many have said here, nobody asks him whether or not he wants it aborted, or given up for adoption. It's mama's choice.

If a woman insists on having a daddy, and then gets pregnant by a married man, yes she is an ***mom. If a woman's requirement for motherhood is to have an active father, then for God's sake find a single man! (I'm not referring to women who choose to be single parents, without making parenting demands on the father.) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never insisted on having a daddy for my child. But I won't allow him or anyone else (thank God we live in the USA) tell me to abort or give up for adoption. Yes I forced Cs on xmm......he helped create the situation. He was not going to get off the hook, but I can assure you Garden..........I pay far more than he does for OUR child, and I took my responsiblity on seriously and DID not take his easy way out.

Lynn,

I do recognize that xMM has responsiblities to his family and I completely understand NC for the family's sake.

He's doing what's best for him, his W, and his chidren of the marriage, I do understand that but unfortunately it's not in the best interest of the child he created outside of the marriage.

That's my point.

I have never said "Poor me, I'm raising this fatherless child and how could he do this to me".
I feel bad for my child because he had a father who chose to be a father and then changed his mind toward the end of my pregnancy. My child would probably not be here today if he told me he didn't want the child.

I had even gone as far as to set up an appointment for RU480. I was torn, but I'll be damned if I was going to bring a child into this world without a father.


Fast forward to today, I am VERY thankful that he told me he loved this baby and wanted to be a father otherwise I would be missing out on this wonderful part of my life.

It makes me sick when I think about how close I came to abortion.

Okay, I'm getting off topic. I DO understand he's taking care of his family, and I am taking care of mine.

We are NC, everyone is happy, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing for my child.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong> CLO--I stand corrected...you did not say oc supercede bc.

That said, I ask, why on earth do you not recognize that a man has responsibilities to his family? He cheated. He makes amends to them. They move on. I KNOW you love your child, but (and this is for NTMO too) HE and HIS FAMILY are not all agoo about the child. They DO NOT have those same feelings for that child. Harsh? You bet it is. But it is also reality. You look at the face of your precious child and can't understand why he wants nothing to do with him/her.
~~~~~Honesetly Lynn, it really is his loss, and yes I do as any mother does look in the face of my child but I'd think that of anyone who did not want to love my child or any child. You and I differ on my opinions and that is just the way it is Lynn. I feel your reaons were for the wrong reasons and that is my opinion and it's not ground in stone either. KWIM? Honestly my problem with you is not that you choose nc, but the way you boast about it and the way you boasted about what you did when this first happen and you know what I talking about without starting a whole new board war.........that is where my problem is with you....and only that.

But they do not see your child as you do. They see THEIR children and the harm this whole situation has caused them. It is THEIR childrens faces that they love and that they cherish. He holds his children and loves them and swears that he will never ever do anything that will harm them again. He never wanted anyone to find out about you. You were supposed to be a secret. Then the oc comes. All hell explodes in his life. Who do you think he is worried about?
~~~~~~~~~His own A**!!!!!
It is his wife and children. Their love and respect truly matter to him. He is scared to death....as well he should be for what he has done. You and your willingness to participate in the near destruction of his family are not a concern. He views you a bit differently now.
~~~~Yeap your right.......he lost some control over his fun and games.
As for the oc? Well sad to say, but everyone is hurt right? So while you are all worried about your childs wellbeing (as you should be) realize that they (XMM/BW) are only worried about the ramifications this is having on thier family.

~~~~~I think it goes further than that. But that is okay.
Oh, and the OW and the XMM were the only ones responsible here.....they can only blame themseles for the destruction to the children. That lies equally on both shoulders. His childrens pain is your fault too. You can't blame only him for everything. You helped created all this for everyone. You can't expect the BW and her children to clean up your mess. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Geez I can remember ever saying that xmm was the only one to blame. As far as your children, where did you see that the bc should clean up the xmm and ow's mess? That was off the wall don't you think? I'll stop there as this really is not going anywhere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:
I'm just saying EVERY child has the right to know their parents.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd say EVERY child has the right NOT to be born of adultery .... Adultery is such an ugly behavior. And both adulterors robbed their child of the right not to be born into a very screwed up situation.

Let's point the finger where it belongs ---> AT ADULTERY.

No good comes from it. The guilty ones screwed the pooch ... and after that BIG MISTAKE ---> everyone tries to "make do" with the consequences. But the bell cannot be unrung.

You cannot plant pumpkin seeds and then complain that you did not grow watermelons.

Want a child to have 2 parents... GET married and STAY married. Not perfect, not fool-proof but ahellofa better beginning than choosing adultery to introduce a baby to the world. WHAT a cruel thing to do to a child! Don't want the mixed mutt puppies? Then don't screw the pooch!

Adultery is ugly. And there lies the problem. Can't say things "should be" be all nice and perfect for any child born from adultery ... too late ... you already screwed the pooch! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Everyone ... enjoy SuperBowl Sunday

Pep

So TWO wrongs make a RIGHT Pepperband???

Wow Pep that was a short one. I was wondering when we would see you....you have not been around much hope all is well with you.....
I agree adultry is ugly but the fact of the matter is when it happens you have to go on and do the best you can do with what you got. It's just the same ole fight and even saying ow don't put bc equal and vise a versa and really I've never said that..........I know I've done what I have to do with what I had and my child will be just fine. I hope that xmm's kids will be just fine. And hopefully if they do right by them they will....(not lbing in front of them, and re-building etc)

Threadjack-
I just wanted to say that it's nice to have a healthy debate/discussion about this here.

Thanks to the moderators and everyone who is willing to be open minded and participate in a diplomatic discussion which includes both sides of the situation.

Sorry, I don't buy the "He told me he was in the process of a divorce..." excuse. A divorce is not final until papers are in hand. When I met my husband, he was "in the process of divorce," but when it came time to sleep together, I told him once you show me your final divorce decree, we'll discuss taking our relationship to the next level.

The very next day he was on the phone to his attorney and within the next two months his divorce was final. After all was said and done, he showed up at my house with a beautiful bouquet of flowers in one hand and his divorce decree in the other. My words to him "Finally! You're single!"

Peace,
99

99,
Yeah, I learned my lesson on that one.

My bad for trusting the guy.

It's sad that people lie, but you hear about this kind of thing happening all the time.

I'll never forget the day I was at his house baking Christmas cookies. We had been engaged about six months by that time and I hear a knock on the door, open it and this woman introduces herself as my husband's wife. I just started laughing! I thought "Wow, what a slick operator having faked the decree..." So I invited her in and we chatted...

Turns out she was just trying to intimidate me and they were divorced when he had said so.

Point being, you just never know--it just pays to be as cautious as possible.

Peace,
99

That's weird!

Women are so crazy sometimes (myself included). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

All this reminds me of my aunt, C, who, after her exh was killed in a car crash 2 years ago, discovered that her ex had never divorced his first wife. So the large amount of money she spent to get a divorce years before could have been used for other things had she known. And at the time of his death, was planning on getting married yet again. (Sad to say, but even his parents knew he was still married and never told my aunt who called them every month to keep in touch since her ex never seemed to do it.)

Its actually a long drawn out story but she and the first wife were enemies for a year or two after the story broke. Now they have gotten to the point where they meet each other for vacations so that all the children can spend time with one another.

Part of what made me want contact is the fact that my H is adopted;he knew his birth mom but never who is birth dad was, and he told me,and I saw, how much that hurt him, and knew in my heart I could never do that to another child, the other was knowing this child is innocent and a gift from God!
We all have to decide what to do in our own individual situations.
H's parents <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> , never considerd him their child <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> , they to this day call him thier adopted son, NOT SON,and they call them selves his adopted parents <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> , not his parents, and they treat him completely differnet than thier natural children. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: angels1966 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
you have not been around much hope all is well with you.....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FANtastic really!

My little boy (18 ~LOL~) is starting to behave like a human being .... and I am on my knees every day THANKING GOD for the progress <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I hope you are FANtastic as well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree adultry is ugly but the fact of the matter is when it happens you have to go on and do the best you can do with what you got.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You and I see eye to eye many times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That's my point ... do the best with what ya got.... like my 18 year old.... he entered the world a receipient of his parent's screwed up choices .... and then when we finally got him (age 3 ) we did the best we could with this little kid.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Can you tell how utterly HAPPY I feel ??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:
So TWO wrongs make a RIGHT Pepperband??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honestly, I don't know whatthehell you're talking about
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by angels1966:
<strong> Part of what made me want contact is the fact that my H is adopted;he knew his birth mom but never who is birth dad was, and he told me,and I saw, how much that hurt him, and knew in my heart I could never do that to another child, the other was knowing this child is innocent and a gift from God!
We all have to decide what to do in our own individual situations.
H's parents <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> , never considerd him their child <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> , they to this day call him thier adopted son, NOT SON,and they call them selves his adopted parents <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> , not his parents, and they treat him completely differnet than thier natural children. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Angels that is so sad. When you adopt a child, that is just that there child. I have a lot of friends who have adopted children and not one of them have said that about there children. They are there children! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Pep:
I'm glad to hear your doing so well......and best of all your 18 year old. I will tell you that pre teens to where you are at scares me to death. Most of my friends have kids at that age (as I started late) and boy do they go through some stuff......and I've got two the same age <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . Shows that you've done a great job with your little boy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and he has seen the light. I hope it continues to go forward....and I'm doing great too!!!! Still working on my nerve in the neck problem, but it's getting better <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:
So TWO wrongs make a RIGHT Pepperband??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honestly, I don't know whatthehell you're talking about
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1 Child born from adultery
+ 1 One of those parents refusing to parent
______
Right? We've corrected the situation now?


Just because the adults who created this child created a difficult situation for others makes it right to then deprive this child of their right to know their parent? It gives one of these parents the right to walk away from a responsibility to a child they created?

I don't want to hear that xMM had no choice, that the xOW thrusts this upon the man. Read my posts. I gave him the choice and he chose to have this child with me and then he LATER walked away from this child.

He created this child WITH me, he CHOSE to bring this child into the world with me and then he bailed out on his parental obligations to the child he helped bring into the world. Money is no substitute for a father.


OBVIOUSLY having a child in an adulterous situation is wrong. But the child is here.

Does walking away from that child as a parent make it right???


xMM wouldn't have to walk away from his W or his children to be a parent to the child he created.
It CAN work, and SunnyD, Entwife, Angels1966, Wife30 and Tylorsstepmom are just a few examples of this.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: CheerfulLittleOne ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1 Child born from adultery
+ 1 One of those parents refusing to parent
______
Right? We've corrected the situation now?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see what you are saying ....
No, the situation which adultery created cannot BE corrected ....
There is NO correction.
Only decisions after the fact are how to deal with what has been damaged.

THERE IS NO CORRECTION! Choosing adultery is choosing the consequences of living with a screwed up situation.

After the fact ... when the adultery has been stopped .... the choices remaining to all involed are:

1. Make the best of the circumstances.

2. Make the worst of the circumstances.

3. A little of both <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Adultery is a non-correctable life-altering decision. (as are many other things in life <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Even if the absent parent chooses to become involved with their child born of adultery .... it is still a sub-optimal situation for the child. UNcorrectable by any standards. No amount of "white out" fluid can change the facts or the truth that adultery is an evil brought to the table and served to the child by two adults who only thought of themselves.

The "best of" anyone's post-adultery meal choices ... are different ... according to where everyone sits at their own table.

There is no "right" after screwing the pooch. There is only damage control according to everyone's individual needs, desires, and abilities.

Adultery guarantees limited choices after the fact.

There is no correcting ... only opportunities to live the best you can with what you have as a result of your own choices.

Pep

Ahhhh Pepperband, we see eye to eye here.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:
<strong> Ahhhh Pepperband, we see eye to eye here.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps there is still room for us to disagree <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You said 2 wrongs don't make a right. And by the 2nd wrong, you mean the father deciding he does not choose to parent his OC is a "wrong".

I say that is not necessarily true. It might be the right decision, and it might be the wrong decision .... according to his needs, desires, and abilities.

In any case, it is none of your business to judge his post-adultery choice as right or wrong.

Your business is yourself and your post-affair choices.

There is no "fair" there is no "right" there is only "make the best of" available after choosing adultery and making a child.

Pep

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

It's right for all of the adults in most cases, but in my opinion, the child is wronged by NC because they have the right to know both individuals who created them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1 Child born from adultery
+ 1 One of those parents refusing to parent
______
Right? We've corrected the situation now? QUOTE]

There is a huge hole it this theme, though.

NC or otherwise-- THE SITUATION IS NEVER, EVER "CORRECTED". The xMM (and BW from OW P.O.V) may be seen as dumping all behind and simply "WALKING".. "ESCAPING RESPONSIBILITY/REPROCUSSOINS"... However, the pain goes on for the bw/xmm and family for a very, very long time. Children of the marriage are many times in the front seat watching their FAMILY AND LIFE abruptly falling apart- watching their mother wither away to nothing- hearing the aweful screams and sobs behind closed doors. You cannot HIDE it all when the pain is so horrid in this home.

So the 2 wrongs --- they are never made truly "right"-- the two wrongs (MM and OW)... make a situation for themselves, the OC, the BC--
that are simply dealt with and smoothed over afterwars as best as one can. The OW goes to her corner to lick the wounds of her and her child...the BW goes to her corner to lick the wounds of herself and her child(ren). The MM cannot father a child of his own flesh and blood and he WILL (even if not IMMEDIATELY) carry this burden FOREVER- he will FOREVER have this looming over him- he does cry and he WILL suffer FOR THIS-- AND-- THEN ADD ON ANOTHER PART OF XMM'S part of the punishment-- THE PAIN he watches the LONG LOVED AND KNOWN children and WIFE suffer through.
Then add on the large CS amounts he has to deal with- and W has to deal with that were for HER children AND FAMILY.

And OW----- IN MY OPINION-- she has the shortest road of pain to come to the end of. She cries for a time over losing a man that was ALWAYS knew to be with another-- so she gets over that part -- and then she gets to love and enjoy her precious little one. YES she will bust her a** to raise her child on her own without the physical presence of a man / father. But she does NOT have the NASTY job (unless a MOW) of LIVING every day in the faces of NUMEROUS family members judging, crying, scowling, screaming, falling apart.

THE MM I DO NOT FEEL SORRY FOR in general-- BUT THIS IS JUST what he GETS, a fact.

SO... not put "shortly".... LOL
CLO there is NOT EVER a way to CORRECT per say or TAKE THE EASY WAY out as Marysway said-----

Hearts heal, but are forever scarred,and lives are forever altered in many ways for all parties.

YES any child AND HUMAN- that means ME TOO- deserves to NOT suffer such travesties. OC not having a fathers is NOT the only thing we can consider in this mess. OC is JUST ONE OF MANY children and GOD'S children (YES ME AS BW TOO!) Who are greatly harmed and will suffer because of the A........

So the OC is just another CHILD OF GOD who will be taken care of by HIM ultimately... and who will be soothed and cared for (as BW,MM,OW,BC,OC)... and will go on to live the best they can.

NOTHING related to the A will EVER be good for OC. NOTHING related to the A will EVER be good for ANY of US- ANY SIDE.

THE XMM is THE ONLY HUMAN IN THIS situation that is NOT afforded the right to JUST FIND A WAY TO LIVE again.

[QUOTE] Just because the adults who created this child created a difficult situation for others makes it right to then deprive this child of their right to know their parent? It gives one of these parents the right to walk away from a responsibility to a child they creat </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one has a "right" to do anything. I stand firm that sins can be GRACIOUSLY forgiven!!! But also-- SIN creates situations that are often painful LONG LONG after the original sin. WE CAN'T just make it all okay ladies. EVEN W/C it will not just BE OK! OW is doing right by her child and she can shine in the sun with her child and with the pride of a MOTHER who TOOK a hard road ALONE.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:
It's right for all of the adults in most cases, but in my opinion, the child is wronged by NC because they have the right to know both individuals who created them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The child is wronged by adultery.

YOUR wrong made this outcome a possibility. YOU decided this for your child when you chose adultery.

Pep

To tell you the truth... if I were an OW who got preg... I'd BE HAPPY as H*LL to not have to show my face anywhere NEAR that family. I'd BE HAPPY to collect $$ from this guy and GO ON to love my child without the scowling from others, (i.e. how most OW don't disclose its from a MM - they have that luxory wherein the MM and BW do NOT)...

Seriously-- but that is because I would feel SORRY for my choice and FEEL ROTTEN for hurting an innocent WOMAN AND CHILDREN who I had NO BUSINESS tangling with in any way. I don't care WHAT a MM did to get me-------- I DO NOT take what is not mine-- and if I SCREW w/lives in any way-- I feel or would feel ROTTEN and when you feel remorse-- you are GLAD to stay OUT of the lives of those you hurt-- and surely would NOT be ALL UP IN THEIR FACES saying ME ME ME look at ME- shoooot I'd be HAPPY AS HECK to go to my corner - with MY baby that I WANTED AND LOVED and REALIZE that CONTACT would be ICKY AND NOT ALWAYS BEST for the child.

I would KNOW my baby deserved a great life-and know I could give it to my child WITHOUT having a false entitlement to SCORN AND SHAKE MY FINGER at the MM-- because he is only doing what he HAS TO DO in a NO WIN situation.

Okay.. I can NEVER keep this short-- I type too friggin fast! LOL

WOW PEP

we crossed posted the EXACT same theories here!

I just saw your post-- !!!!

You, however, have a way of NO FRILLS and getting the same points across as my long-arsed ones.

Is there a course I can take called "keep the sh*t short" and get the same idea across?? LOL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> The child is wronged by adultery.

YOUR wrong made this outcome a possibility. YOU decided this for your child when you chose adultery.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, Pep, the child was wronged by adultery. BUT the child was also wronged by one of it's creators not following through with raising the person they brought into the world.

And MY xMM had a say in bringing this child into the world.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> YOU decided this </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WE decided together to BE PARENTS to this child. HE went back on his word and is not a parent to the child he promised me that he loved and will father in every way.

I'm saying two wrongs don't make a right. Yes, he had an A and I was a part of that. WE chose to bring this child into the world and HE chose to back out on his obligations.

It works for me, my family, him and his family, but it is not right for the child WE CREATED.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: CheerfulLittleOne ]</small>

CLO- I'm sorry for your situation. I believe father's should have the right to terminate their parental rights in the first 12 wks of pregnancy to balance out Roe v. Wade. But no one has the right to agree to be a parent, then renege on that promise. I don't mean a "Let's make a baby" in the heat of passion agreement either.-

My opinion is very similar to Gardenbunny except I'd like to say that you cannot be m'd to someon for the rest of your life without honestly hating your spouse at some moment. In everyone's life there are good years and bad years. So yes, there are bad whole years in a m too! At that moment mm really did hate his wife and wanted a D, he may have really loved you and want to be with you and have a child with you, but until the D is final he can't by definition of an existing marital contract commit to you. As an ow you have no way of knowing whether or not this is just a bad time in his m. You are gambling with your life and the life of any child you concieve. As so many ow are single moms and exmm is back with w and family it was a bad bet.

I know alot of ow's fall back on the, "but he lied to me!" excuse. No, at the time he meant every word. He bad-mouthed his w, because he was still angry with her. Alot of ow want to believe that part, at least at first. Ow want to believe that the are special to mm, for a awhile you were. Ow wants to believe mm needs them, at the time he did. Almost all ow know for undeniable fact, the man is STILL married. That is the reality. As an ow, you are dealing with what is quite possibly a temporary situation, whether you WANT to believe it or not.

In the process of having the A with mm, YOU have betrayed another woman and mother. Not taking away mm's guilt, but you have some too. You knew you were taking a gamble, and you were hoping another woman's life would fall apart.

IMHO, bringing a child into that situation is IRRESPONSIBLE. Our country affords women the right to use b.c., or have children and to abort them if they choose. Men have NONE of those rights. When a man makes the only choice he has, which is NC, well you just have to live with it. He's not any more an ***dad then the woman is who chose to abort her baby is a murderer, or who gave her child up for adoption is an ***mom.

You also cannot be entirely surprised or blame bw if she chooses to have nothing to do with your child, after all you had the child betting on the destruction of her family. If bw welcomes your child into her home with loving arms, you owe her a debt of gratitude. No matter how bw chooses to handle the situation of your child she certainly doesn't deserve additional mistreatment by you, no matter how much pain you are in at the time.

Mary- I was responding to the posts I'd read on the TOW board, sorry I shouldn't have generalized.

clo </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WE chose to bring this child into the world and HE chose to back out on his obligations.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Women have that right also. When the child is born and they realize they are not financially, mentally, emotionally prepared to give the child what he/she needs, they can opt for adoption. They are not an ***mom. They are a woman that loved their child enough to give it the best life possible, something they, at that time, are not able to provide. Should men not be allowed that same option?

Happymom,
Great post and so very true too.

Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:

And MY xMM had a say in bringing this child into the world.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honey .... Lets discuss YOU, your choices, your ethical foundation and what YOU bring to the table NOW, today, in this week. Not why you choose poorly in the past, you cannot un-ring the bell ...

How do you view life differently after learning from your mistakes ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> THAT's interesting and exciting.

What is your NOW opinion of the situation of any two adults deciding to bring a baby into the world via the conduit of adultery ... good choice or bad choice?

Good choice, yes OK to do?

or

Bad choice, no not Ok to do?

Discuss the ethics of this decision and how one could make a good decision using their principles.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> IMHO, bringing a child into that situation is IRRESPONSIBLE. Our country affords women the right to use b.c., or have children and to abort them if they choose. Men have NONE of those rights. When a man makes the only choice he has, which is NC, well you just have to live with it. He's not any more an ***dad then the woman is who chose to abort her baby is a murderer, or who gave her child up for adoption is an ***mom. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES!

Perfect example:

It was in the news just last night, that the Childrens Hospital in my city have a new campaign.... ITS THE ABANDONED baby campaign. IF you drop your baby off at the hopsital... you will have NO reprocussions.. you do not have to give ANY NAME... the hospital will assume FULL responsibility for the child.. There has been one already dropped off there. No responsibility to the child, financially or otherwise. Period. Ever.

This is then seen as the noble thing for the mother to do for the child.

YES Roe v. Wade issue-- a father's aweful or horrid timing, circumstances in his life ALBEIT him being a party to the sex/conceiving a child-- it is NEVER, EVER considered as noble-- him relinquishing rights will NEVER be considered as the best interest of the child. PERIOD. HE WILL NEVER be afforded the right to financially ABANDON his child as the woman can.

As a woman NOT in the BW circumstances this will be very UNCLEAR until you ARE in the situation. I would not have seen this otherwise, I believe. I also do NOT think the OW has the DUTY to abort IF the man says. I AGREE and COMEND ANY woman for taking the harder road,and letting the child live. I am FOR the choice being it is our body.. but yet in my heart I am also PRO LIFE..... So I have NO problem w/even H's xow KEEPING the child. I have told H this when he says "but she would not abort- I had no choice"... I AGREE that he had no choice-- but I AGREE with any women who refuses to let a man choose.

SO- it comes down to, no matter what is right or wrong in the aftermath- as the WOMAN we MUST not wantanly give birth or not protect furture children. As the woman with choices-- a divorced MAN is NOT your HUSBAND STILL... it is just not a dignified choice to give birth as a single parent. It is NOT in the best interest of the child! They deserve 2 parents-- THIS INCLUDES SINGLE WOMEN GETTING pregnant AGREEABLY because a man wants it- or when they are single.

ACCIDENTS happen- and this is not even a religous standpoint in this post- BUT its women DECIDING and PLANNING these babies out of HEAT or LUST or FANTASY w/a man-- or because THE MAN wants it-- makes me SO ANGRY.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>

Of course that is poor decision Pepperband.


You HAVE to realize that when I chose to bring this child into the world that was thrusted upon ME (remember xMM lied about having a vasectomy- I was NOT ready for this) and xMM chose to raise this child WITH me, at that point in time, I did not consider this a situation where I would be raising an "OC". This was going to be OUR CHILD that we raised TOGETHER.

I would NOT have brought a child into this world in the situation you describe above. I would NOT have chosen to bring a child into this world out of an affair and where one of the parents is not fully commited to parenting the child.

I WOULD have done things differently if I knew he wasn't going to be around but I am VERY thankful that I did not because I now have a beautiful child.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: CheerfulLittleOne ]</small>

CLO--- I feel for your situation. He said he had a vasectom... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

The more you ALLOW of yourself to show here-- SEE-- the more understanding and acceptance you will gain. Who here would SAY YOU ARE AN EVIL OW for what you had to deal with -- what is evil is what you do After IN YOUR LIFE.

I dont understand, then, WHY you are so hurtful and evil towards us HERE- when WE nor the BW in your life was the one who LIED, etc.

You should clearly see that our NC situations are ABSOLUTELY a different set of circumstances.. why the anger towards posters here w/NC???

Even the BW in your sitauation- you have NO idea REALLY what happened w/them and what MM lied about.

You have NO RIGHT to be angry at a woman who decided to STAY W/HER M AND HUSBAND after a devastating blow like an OW and OC---- SOMETIMES, MOST TIMES-- a tragedy or LOSING what you took for granted MAKES YOU CLEAR on what you DO WANT and LOVE-- its a part of life- its these things- similar to near death situations, that many times shapes up your life for the good. SHE, THE BW IN YOUR SITUTATION had a RIGHT to not divorce and to keep her H--- this is NO FAULT of hers-- this is her HUSBAND until that ink is dry.

Maybe O/T right now but I am interested (when you and Pep's convo is thru <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> in why you are so angry at US here or even at the BW for keeping her H? YOU wanted to keep him too, kwim?

And you should see by now that POSITIVE and explorative posts/discussions here WILL HELP you, will help US- regardless of titles. If you stayed here to feed your brain w/real life issues that need discussed- instead of hurtful ones-- YOU will BENEFIT and have a better view perhaps, even for the good of your child someday to help explain to him.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>

I've said before, I am not here to hurt anyone. I have a terrible way with words at times. I am also on the defense because of my OW title. Some people do disregard titles but there are clearly several BW's here who hate (understandably) all OW's.


I do, in my heart, feel that xMM's W is the reason behind NC because he was so adament about being a father. Regardless, the ultimate decision is his.

We OW's can't talk to MM anywhere. They just don't post on the internet. This site and others like them are the closest we can get to understanding what is going on- why they are not fulfilling their promise of fathering OC.

I also would like to understand how women could love a man that would do this to her and her family. I know that I would not be as forgiving as those of you here. I do think of xMM's W and I wonder- if she kicked him out, was in the process of D, why on earth would she want him back when he had a child with another woman? THAT makes it worth fighting for the M? It doesn't make sense to me but I hear it's one of those "control" situations. She doesn't want him, but she doesn't want anyone else to have him either.

Who knows.

CLo-

Every situation is different. I don't know about yours, but in mine my family went through several very traumatic events in a very short time. My m was only 4yrs old and my h began having second thoughts about our m. He basically took the cowards way out and ran away from home for 2mos. He learned the hard way that you cannot run away from your problems. When he had to face our situation anyway, he found out he'd rather do that with me then without me.

okay, that doesn't make sense...I'll just have to say it out laoud first, before i write it. Our baby died. I think I did along with him. My h talked about him for the first time this past month when our second son was born.

We've both had alot of grieving to do...and healing. Ilove my h very much and am glad we got through it.

Everybody here has a different situation. Has faced and overcome challenges. In your situation, exmm has a mentally ill wife. That can be devastating, not only to exmm, but his bw as well. She may blame her illness on driving him away.

happymom,
I'm so sorry about your baby <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I can't imagine. It must have been so hard on you to lose your child and then have your H leave too. I just can't imagine.

You're right, even though we are all in similar situations, they are indeed very unique in their own way.

CLO -

Get a clue. Grow up. Go back and read some of your comments from posts today. They sound very childish.

Believe what you want out of your MM, but the bottom line is most MM looked at OW as an easy piece of *ss. Reality is they could have gotten it somewhere else, but you happened to be in the right place at the right time. Lucky you.

I don't see many men period posting on this board and certainly didn't see any the two times I lurked over at that "other" sick board.

Men, in general, (there's always an exception or two) don't express their feelings the same as women do.

Lady, you don't have years of history, family, kids etc. with MM. If I were you, I'd refrain from making statements like this one you made "I know that I would not be as forgiving as those of you here". You're not in those shoes.

And.......... then of course we're hearing your side of things that certainly your MM's BS is mentally ill and out of it. Doesn't that justify it all.

I'll stop now, because people like you don't listen anyway.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> CLO- I'm sorry for your situation. I believe father's should have the right to terminate their parental rights in the first 12 wks of pregnancy to balance out Roe v. Wade. But no one has the right to agree to be a parent, then renege on that promise. I don't mean a "Let's make a baby" in the heat of passion agreement either.-

My opinion is very similar to Gardenbunny except I'd like to say that you cannot be m'd to someon for the rest of your life without honestly hating your spouse at some moment. In everyone's life there are good years and bad years. So yes, there are bad whole years in a m too! At that moment mm really did hate his wife and wanted a D, he may have really loved you and want to be with you and have a child with you, but until the D is final he can't by definition of an existing marital contract commit to you. As an ow you have no way of knowing whether or not this is just a bad time in his m. You are gambling with your life and the life of any child you concieve. As so many ow are single moms and exmm is back with w and family it was a bad bet.

I know alot of ow's fall back on the, "but he lied to me!" excuse. No, at the time he meant every word. He bad-mouthed his w, because he was still angry with her. Alot of ow want to believe that part, at least at first. Ow want to believe that the are special to mm, for a awhile you were. Ow wants to believe mm needs them, at the time he did. Almost all ow know for undeniable fact, the man is STILL married. That is the reality. As an ow, you are dealing with what is quite possibly a temporary situation, whether you WANT to believe it or not.

In the process of having the A with mm, YOU have betrayed another woman and mother. Not taking away mm's guilt, but you have some too. You knew you were taking a gamble, and you were hoping another woman's life would fall apart.

IMHO, bringing a child into that situation is IRRESPONSIBLE. Our country affords women the right to use b.c., or have children and to abort them if they choose. Men have NONE of those rights. When a man makes the only choice he has, which is NC, well you just have to live with it. He's not any more an ***dad then the woman is who chose to abort her baby is a murderer, or who gave her child up for adoption is an ***mom.

You also cannot be entirely surprised or blame bw if she chooses to have nothing to do with your child, after all you had the child betting on the destruction of her family. If bw welcomes your child into her home with loving arms, you owe her a debt of gratitude. No matter how bw chooses to handle the situation of your child she certainly doesn't deserve additional mistreatment by you, no matter how much pain you are in at the time. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Happymom, I'd say your opinion is a polictal one and not for everyone. We all have to LIVE with the choices we make in life. How could you put on ANYONE the thought that she terminated her pregnancy and could not live with killing something? Okay, let's give ANY man mm or sm the option if a woman gets pregnant. I'd say you have a lot more woman pregnant aborting and probally at some point close to if not commiting suicide. The mm had an option before he unzipped his pants. Excuse me but not every woman does this to trap a man......that would be like saying that every bw who gets pregnant right after a affair happens or oc is known about does it on purpose.

CLO- Thank you, but I only talk about it (because my ic says I have to, bossy ic that she is) and because I take responsibility for MY part of the marital problems we had then and the ones we have now. I withdrew from everyone, from my entire life, wouldn't/couldn't be there for my h when he needed me most. Many things can cause a couple to drift apart. They both have to take responsibility for it. However, an A is NEVER a solution. It just causes more pain.

I can forgive anyone, but not until they understand what they are being forgiven for and have or are in the process of making amends.

Forgiveness is earned, Grace is forgiving someone when they don't deserve it and have not earned it. As a bw I forgave my wh. I did not,however, show him Grace. That he can get from God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nerlycrzy:
<strong> clo </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WE chose to bring this child into the world and HE chose to back out on his obligations.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Women have that right also. When the child is born and they realize they are not financially, mentally, emotionally prepared to give the child what he/she needs, they can opt for adoption. They are not an ***mom. They are a woman that loved their child enough to give it the best life possible, something they, at that time, are not able to provide. Should men not be allowed that same option? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Basically if you think about it they have made that option by NC.....am I right??????

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> CLO- Thank you, but I only talk about it (because my ic says I have to, bossy ic that she is) and because I take responsibility for MY part of the marital problems we had then and the ones we have now. I withdrew from everyone, from my entire life, wouldn't/couldn't be there for my h when he needed me most. Many things can cause a couple to drift apart. They both have to take responsibility for it. However, an A is NEVER a solution. It just causes more pain.

I can forgive anyone, but not until they understand what they are being forgiven for and have or are in the process of making amends.

Forgiveness is earned, Grace is forgiving someone when they don't deserve it and have not earned it. As a bw I forgave my wh. I did not,however, show him Grace. That he can get from God. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Happymom I can agree with this statement your making, although it's one hard thing to do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> As I see it though, if you can forgive then you have grace <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

NTMO/Marysway:

I don't ahve time to read this superdooperthread (but it looked good from what I did see <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) BUT, I did want to clarify that I was not trying to jump all over you.

It was one of your initial comments that provoked the point I was trying to make. Nothing personal.

It seems, in this life, all we ever hear (generally speaking, yep) is how horrible a man is for wanting NC but the same negative feelings are NOT provoked towards a mom who also wants her child to have NC.

That is why I asked why an OW could not admit aloud that there could be very VALID reasons for NC. (or something like that).

It was not meant towards you specefically nor to create a feeling of defensiveness.

I am still & probably always will be perturbed @ OW for the difficult situation she put us in (not referring to A but OW detestable behavior during C w/ OC that resulted in no other choice but NC----MY POV). But I'm trying.

I triggered myself this week like a dork & I'm paying for it emotionally. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> It happens sometimes. kwim?
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CLO: I can see & understand why you don't see yourself as OW, but can be considered it by a technical default. LOL Chalked up as not one of your brightest moments hanh?lol

I'm glad you didn't abort your child & proud of any woman who chooses not to. Even if you aren't pro-life, I am & I was glad to hear that our OW didn't abort either. I would never have wanted that.

but anyhoo....enough TJ from me.

xoxoxoxxox
kt

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by giovanna123:
<strong> To tell you the truth... if I were an OW who got preg... I'd BE HAPPY as H*LL to not have to show my face anywhere NEAR that family. I'd BE HAPPY to collect $$ from this guy and GO ON to love my child without the scowling from others, (i.e. how most OW don't disclose its from a MM - they have that luxory wherein the MM and BW do NOT)...

Seriously-- but that is because I would feel SORRY for my choice and FEEL ROTTEN for hurting an innocent WOMAN AND CHILDREN who I had NO BUSINESS tangling with in any way. I don't care WHAT a MM did to get me-------- I DO NOT take what is not mine-- and if I SCREW w/lives in any way-- I feel or would feel ROTTEN and when you feel remorse-- you are GLAD to stay OUT of the lives of those you hurt-- and surely would NOT be ALL UP IN THEIR FACES saying ME ME ME look at ME- shoooot I'd be HAPPY AS HECK to go to my corner - with MY baby that I WANTED AND LOVED and REALIZE that CONTACT would be ICKY AND NOT ALWAYS BEST for the child.

I would KNOW my baby deserved a great life-and know I could give it to my child WITHOUT having a false entitlement to SCORN AND SHAKE MY FINGER at the MM-- because he is only doing what he HAS TO DO in a NO WIN situation.

Okay.. I can NEVER keep this short-- I type too friggin fast! LOL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay maybe I misunderstood, but are you saying that mm that have contact are doing because they have to? I know for myself that
As far as the scwolling of others....well whos is going to lie all the time. Really it's easier for the mm to lie than the ow if nc is in place. The ow has the child. The mm can pretend to the public it never happened and he's still in this great marriage. Where as the ow when asked about daddy can lie and lie and lie but at some point when do you just tell the truth? I know I don't go around boasting about my duaghter's conceiption, but my close friends know the truth. I don't offer information to people. I did however look at this new girl to came to work for us and she is in my department she is having problems with her husband and was eyeing this loan rep........and she asked me about him etc. I looked at her and said you know my baby?? And she said yeah.........well that was the result of an affair I had, do you want to take that chance? She has not looked at that guy since. FYI the loan rep is not my baby's father....just realized how that sounded.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong> NTMO/Marysway:

I don't ahve time to read this superdooperthread (but it looked good from what I did see <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) BUT, I did want to clarify that I was not trying to jump all over you.

It was one of your initial comments that provoked the point I was trying to make. Nothing personal.

It seems, in this life, all we ever hear (generally speaking, yep) is how horrible a man is for wanting NC but the same negative feelings are NOT provoked towards a mom who also wants her child to have NC.

That is why I asked why an OW could not admit aloud that there could be very VALID reasons for NC. (or something like that).

It was not meant towards you specefically nor to create a feeling of defensiveness.

I am still & probably always will be perturbed @ OW for the difficult situation she put us in (not referring to A but OW detestable behavior during C w/ OC that resulted in no other choice but NC----MY POV). But I'm trying.

I triggered myself this week like a dork & I'm paying for it emotionally. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> It happens sometimes. kwim?
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CLO: I can see & understand why you don't see yourself as OW, but can be considered it by a technical default. LOL Chalked up as not one of your brightest moments hanh?lol

I'm glad you didn't abort your child & proud of any woman who chooses not to. Even if you aren't pro-life, I am & I was glad to hear that our OW didn't abort either. I would never have wanted that.

but anyhoo....enough TJ from me.

xoxoxoxxox
kt </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KT thanks for clarify. I could tell by your post that something was going on....as I said to you where did this come from? As I've always said that a person's personality will pop up here and direct how we act in the role. Maybe circumstances sets us off, but our personailty always comes back and we go back to ourselfs. I don't think one person ow/bw/mm would be any different in any situation if it was a typical divorce, breakup ect. KWIM?

Mary- I'm not saying they should have aborted thier child, or that the decision to have an abortion is an easy one. After conception has occurred and BOTH parents have to deal with a child they were not expecting...mom's have choices, dad's do not. Mom's get to choose to be a parent or not. That choice is never easy. It shouldn't be. In this situation where dad is an exmm and mom is ow, if dad doesn't want to be a dad...he has NO choice except NC.(I guess that's any sitch, really) It's isn't any easier to make that choice then for a mom to choose to terminate her pregnancy.

The only difference is that a man who doesn't want to father the already concieved child is put down for his choice. A woman who terminates her pregnancy is offered a shoulder to cry on. She pays for the termination once, the man pays for NC the rest of his life.

Believe what you want out of your MM, but the bottom line is most MM looked at OW as an easy piece of *ss. Reality is they could have gotten it somewhere else, but you happened to be in the right place at the right time. Lucky you.

There are several levels of affairs. Most books and research that I've done seem to indicate that many affairs aren't strictly about sex. They start as EA and progress from there. If it was really all about sex and only sex, these MMs wouldn't find it as difficult to walk away from OWs as some do. Many women seem to want to push the sex view because it tends to lessen the fact that the men were probably seeking emotional needs also that weren't be met in several areas.

Lady, you don't have years of history, family, kids etc. with MM. If I were you, I'd refrain from making statements like this one you made "I know that I would not be as forgiving as those of you here". You're not in those shoes.

In my case, I have more years of history together with my MM than his wife does. I was with him through many tough times including his dad's heart attack, his struggles with his religious training, etc... All this happened before she even came into his life. So if that is the case, my presence in his life is just as important as his wife's.

I'll stop now, because people like you don't listen anyway.

Not that were aren't listening or totally discrediting what you are saying. Just goes to show that each of these situations are different and generalizations of people and issues are what really causes conflict between many of us.

I know that in my case, I am only months from making a drastic decision regarding the continuance of my R. I know it. He knows it. The one thing I have learned no matter what board I'm reading on is to not leave the decision totally up to him. I have to eventually do what is better for me and our daughter even if it includes NC until he exposes her existence to his wife and time for her to adjust if she adjusts ever.

I don't think one person ow/bw/mm would be any different in any situation if it was a typical divorce, breakup ect.

What do you mean? I don't understand.
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I still think it remains to be seen or heard that there are VERY VALID reasons for NC. (besides obvious abuse)

Why can't that be respected.

And I still think there is (generally) a double standard towards men who choose to not be involved in a child's life & a woman who chooses her child NOT be in father's life.

xoxoxoxo
kt

In my case, I have more years of history together with my MM than his wife does. I was with him through many tough times including his dad's heart attack, his struggles with his religious training, etc... All this happened before she even came into his life. So if that is the case, my presence in his life is just as important as his wife's.

Then WHY didn't he marry YOU? (asked w/ sincere curiosity not sarcasm)

????
kt

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> Mary- I'm not saying they should have aborted thier child, or that the decision to have an abortion is an easy one. After conception has occurred and BOTH parents have to deal with a child they were not expecting...mom's have choices, dad's do not. Mom's get to choose to be a parent or not. That choice is never easy. It shouldn't be. In this situation where dad is an exmm and mom is ow, if dad doesn't want to be a dad...he has NO choice except NC.(I guess that's any sitch, really) It's isn't any easier to make that choice then for a mom to choose to terminate her pregnancy.

The only difference is that a man who doesn't want to father the already concieved child is put down for his choice. A woman who terminates her pregnancy is offered a shoulder to cry on. She pays for the termination once, the man pays for NC the rest of his life. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see what your trying to say happy, but I don't totally agree with you. I don't think if someone came to me telling me they had an aborntion I'd give them my shoulder to cry on. I know that is harsh, but I went through way to much having my twins and many looses to get them for that to ever cross my mind as well as adoption, although I would pat someone on the back and hold there hand through adoption, even though I can't do it. I maynot be a millionair or very rich, but I provide (even before cs came) for my kids and I love my kdis with all my heart and soul and would fight to my death on anything for them. I do see that mm has choices, and yes he may have to pay cs for 18 years, but he can walk away. It is much harder to raise a child than just pay for a child. YOu send a check once a month and your done until the next month. The xmm and bw are still not happy about the cs check, but it's the deal breaker in there relationship. bw would rather do that (because of no choice) than contact in most cases. As far as abortion goes........I'm not against it 100%. It's not for me and never will be. However I don't feel any government, person or anything has any right to tell us what to do with our bodies. I would much rather see a woman give her child up than abort. Abortion is the easy road out. My opnion. Adoption is a great gift to give someone. I am the first one to say that. But just because I got pregnant by a mm does not mean I have to give my child up because he and I made a mistake one night. I said it before....he has a choice before he unzipped his pants. The only sure way to never get pregnant (I've learned) is not to have sex unless of course you don't have a uturus. But if someone is so selfish to bring a chld into this world that is in abusive relationship, poverty level and doing nothing to change that, or would rather buy crack with her welfare check than clothes and food then yes by all means get the abortion......how sad, but that little spirit is better off! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Just because my child does not have a father around her does not make her a minnus to society. She will be fine and she won't be a victum. She will get past any struggles she has with my help and be a better person. I'd much rather be able to live with my choices, than have more materialy and also have the love of my child to give and receive. I did not have a one night stand with xmm. It was long term. Again, I'm not proud but this is what is the results of it. In some ways I really think God gave me a wake up call with the pregnancy. I would probally still be with xmm if I would have never gotten pregnant. In the same rut going through the same song and dance. I knew I needed out, and was trying to get out and was literly addiditive to xmm. Stupid but the truth. I don't think the bw/ow will ever see eye to eye on this. As we are on oppisite sides of the fence. Not just a mm, but I beleieve any man who fathers a child is to pay cs.....or let me rephrase this......any parent who is taking care of there child full time or the majority of the time is due cs. It's a responsiblty to say the least. If you were to divorce your husband I can't see any woman not wanting there husband (x's) to help provide for that child. It's not different. Not all children are planned even in the marriage. How would you like your husband to say well I did not plan this child, you are the woman and in charge of bc....so what if you were on the pill, you still are responsbile dear.....it's your problem.......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong> I don't think one person ow/bw/mm would be any different in any situation if it was a typical divorce, breakup ect.

What do you mean? I don't understand.
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I still think it remains to be seen or heard that there are VERY VALID reasons for NC. (besides obvious abuse)

Why can't that be respected.

And I still think there is (generally) a double standard towards men who choose to not be involved in a child's life & a woman who chooses her child NOT be in father's life.

xoxoxoxo
kt </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The first part........I mean that personality of person will follow them......your xow is who she is not because of her being an ow/xow. IF she were to marry and divorce she would probally do the same thing to her husband. That is all I meant by that. That we all have our personalities and that is who we are. Sure circumstances can make us go into a different one for awhile, but sooner or later we go back to being ourselfs. KWIM?

KT are you saying there are NO valid reasons for nc? Before I answer I just want to see if I heard you right.

I have to thank the moderators for not erasing this thread.

I have to give credit to all the open-minded people on this board.

CLO, you have stated, "EVERY child has the right to know their parents."

I disagree with that statement. There are many children, who, do not know, and, never will know, their biological parents. It is their right? Even if adopted, sperm bank baby, orphaned, or your dad, who was legally married to your mother, and has abandonded you, to marry again and have a new family?

You can't force a relationship on anyone. They have to want it. This goes for any situation, be you the H,W,C,OC,OW,OM,MM, friend, neighbor, relative, etc.

Some people should not be parents at all. Who is to judge? You, or I?

There is NO guarantee in life, of anything.

I just try to do my best everyday.

Good luck to all of you.

In recovery since 1996.

ember

ember there actually is a child's bill of rights.......I'll see if I can find it. and post it. Your right though you can NOT force a relationship on anyone. Let me see if I can find that article

NTMO,

I actally don't believe in abortion either. I understand that no one has the right to tell another person what they can or cannot do to their bodies. If the man wants the child and the woman aborts it anyway, he still had no choice. This law gives too much reproductive power to women. To balance the scales, men should either have the right to force/prevent an abortion or the right to terminate parental rights.

Since that's not reality and we do have the right to give birth without taking the father's wants or needs into consideration as women we have to accept that we taking all the control and therefore they just might leave us with all the responsibility.

Mary if I thought for one second that my h would divorce me if I got pg, I would use bc, condoms and the rythm method. I find it equally despicable when a w tricks h into having a baby. Definite grounds for divorce. Should h not sleep with w in fear she might get pg? (in reference to "he unzipped his pants")Should he be responsible for a child born because sneaky w tricked him? I don't believe so. I would hope that when a h and w have to deal with an unexpected pregnancy that they would talk about it and come up with a solution they can both live with.

Found it, not where I had it before, but another website.

http://www.divorcemediation.norwalk.ct.us/child_bill_of_rights.htm

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> NTMO,

I actally don't believe in abortion either. I understand that no one has the right to tell another person what they can or cannot do to their bodies. If the man wants the child and the woman aborts it anyway, he still had no choice. This law gives too much reproductive power to women. To balance the scales, men should either have the right to force/prevent an abortion or the right to terminate parental rights.

Since that's not reality and we do have the right to give birth without taking the father's wants or needs into consideration as women we have to accept that we taking all the control and therefore they just might leave us with all the responsibility.

Mary if I thought for one second that my h would divorce me if I got pg, I would use bc, condoms and the rythm method. I find it equally despicable when a w tricks h into having a baby. Definite grounds for divorce. Should h not sleep with w in fear she might get pg? (in reference to "he unzipped his pants")Should he be responsible for a child born because sneaky w tricked him? I don't believe so. I would hope that when a h and w have to deal with an unexpected pregnancy that they would talk about it and come up with a solution they can both live with. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Happy you missed the point.....oh well.

Men having a choice AFTER conception. Wouldn't THAT be something.


Petitioner
Mr. Harry Sacks

...........................Order to Appear
.......................... Regarding Termination
...........................of Pregnancy

Respondent
Ms. Anita [censored]


Persuant to S.N.A.F.U. 34-685 the court orders a hearing for the father's right to terminate mother's pregnancy.

It is ordered that Ms. Anita [censored] and Mr. Harry Sacks appear to the designated courtroom and time to determine if Mr. Sack's request for pregnancy termination of Ms. [censored]'s unborn child shall be granted.


<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: CheerfulLittleOne ]</small>

Mary,

I am saying that there ARE valid reasons for NC.

And just because the outcome equalled NC does NOT mean that the 'dad' was a JERK becuase he chose NC.

IF so, then ANY women who chooses NC for her child & makes it difficult for the father, should be considered a jerk as well.

But my point is: we rarely hear how the 'woman' (in this case, usually OW) is a JERK for choosing NC for her child regardless of what the 'dad' wants.

OR that an OW prefers NC for her own convenience JUST AS a 'dad' may choose NC for his own convenience but is considered a jerk for doing so.

swim? LOL (I meant that as an acronym for See What I mean?lol)
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For example: our OW did NOT want us involved, but of course she would never say that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> (although she did say that to me a few times)

So instead, she chose to be as difficult as possible UNTIl we HAD to choose NC or further disrupt our family & maybe irrepairably. (you guys know what we went through & w/ our kids)

BUT...in general, there is no negativity towards an OW who is being 'difficult'....except only from another BW who probably understands becuase she has seen it & so believes it.

But......another OW might find it unbelievable...& so the ###dad is the ONLY one to blame & the jerk. swim now?

See, the MM & his W make a decision based on what is best for their family, marriage & YES, thier children. I don't beleive it is out of spite or disdain for OC. I don't even think OC is a FACTOR in thier decision.

Just as BW & OW are NOT really a factor in the H choice to have A.

THey are not thinking about OC. THe BW is trying to keep what shred of her life she has left, together. OR maybe they are 'thinking' of OC but it is not a concern, @ least not BW.

DO I care that a child is out there w/o a father? yes! There are probably millions out there in the world w/o fathers. I cannot save all of them nor can I save this one.

BUT I can save MY children. So a BW has a decision to make, & of course she chooses her OWN children because NO ONE else is gonna look after them.

Sorry that there will be a child out there who won't know their father? a little, but only a little becuase it is not my place to feel sorry, I did not create this situation.

Hopeful that OW will find another to step in & provide a father figure for her child? Yep, statistically, it will happen too. (how many SINGLE moms have children by different men? PLENTY, no offense just stats)

FWH XOW had another fatherless child right before OC 2nd b-day.

So if we women are so much for equal opportunity then I would like to see us actually practice it & stop coming down on men so hard for the very same things that we do but yet.....we do not want to acknowledge it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> puhleeze! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

kt

OF course, a man should not have the right to force a woman to abort! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But WHY then does SHE have the right to FORCE a man to accept this pg & now obligate him to the child until adult hood?

The right to terminate parental rights & obligation of support seems fair.

Women can even LEGALLY abandon their babies nowadays if they DON'T abort or DON'T adopt out...just leave it @ the fire station, police station, WIC office ect........NO risk of negative consequences.............oh & we all aplaud, good mommy good mommy, you didn't dump it in a trash can! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

But a MAN who wants NC is a jerk?

See.........how it is?

kt