I just wanted to know how many BWs get along w/ their ow and vice versa? And if you do get along w/ your OW what are some ways you have found an equilibrium? I really would like to have a better relationship w/ ow and wanted to know how others are dealing w/ it. Thanks in advance for your help.

cas, I don't know to many except one or two, but I can say this....all the adults HAVE to be just that......adults. I wish I could give you some advise on this. I can't remember what issues (except the affair) that you two have (xow and you).

Thanks NTMO. All i know for sure is tghat in the beginning we didn't exactly get along. I tried and I'm sure she did too but it just didn't work. she'd say something and I'd take it the wrong way and just go off. I even wrote her a really nasty letter just because I was hurt and wanted her to feel the pain she had help inflict. After my nasty letter we really didn't speak to each other at all.. In short we just both became digusted w/ one another. Recently she has been calling for my H about Oc and we've talked and it doesn't seem too bad. I fell like we're able to actually communicate a little now. I'm actually grateful. I know we probably wont be best friends but I kind of would like us to be able to be friends or at least find a way that we can work together and not step on each others toes. I've told my H how I feel and he actually said that she had expressed similar intrest but her and I have never discussed it. I was just wondering how others who have made it work are making it happen. Sometimes the whole ow/ oc thing gets so overwhelming that I want to end the marriage because I don't think I can deal. But I really want it to work. I want it all to work out for everyone.

Good question cali. I've extended an olive branch to OW but no response. Not really sure how to proceed. It just seems that for the sake of OC, she would rather speak to me. H doesn't always seem to relay info correctly or he edits stuff that doesn't seem important to him.

ent

I am friends with my OW (Jami).
When I first found out about the affair and my stepson I was devestated. (the A had been over for 2 yrs at this point). I listened to everything my H had to say but that just wasnt enough for me. I finally forced him to give me her phone #. (they live 800 miles from us). At first she was afraid to talk to me, but she finally did. She answered every question that I had. She held nothing back. She apologized to me.
We talked on the phone several times over the next couple of weeks. She sent me pictures of Tylor. The kids started talking on the phone.
About 3 weeks after I found out. I decided I wanted to meet her in person, So i loaded my H and the kids in the van and drove up to meet her.
After we got to her house and the kids all got aqauinted(SP), they went outside to play. I then told Jami and my H exactly how devestated I was. I wanted them to hear the exact same words that the other did. I wanted everything out in the open. No more lies or sneaking around. After this we took Tylor to the hotel with us for the weekend. A couple of hours later, I left my H with all 5 kids and met Jami at a coffee shop near by. We talked for 3 or 4 hours. The next day I went to her house alone and we talked again.
For the first 6 months or so after D-day all comunication went thru me. After awhile it didnt/doesnt bother me if they talk. I know that their relationship is over.
I think for me it was her willingness and openess to talk to me. To answer all my questons.
Her and Tylor came and spent a month here. She stayed 3 or 4 days with me and the kids. (my H was still in the navy and wasnt home). I felt she needed to be here at the beginning for Tylor.
I didnt want to push myself on him and wanted him to be comfortable with me. She then went and stayed a couple of weeks with my sister and then a couple of weeks with my MIL, while Tylor stayed with us. We spoke on the phone and saw each other a couple of times a week.
We were able to build a friendship. My kids think she is neat. We talk on the phone every couple of weeks. We e-mail each other all the time. Hopefully we will get to get Tylor this summer and maybe see her for a day or two.
We made a choice for everyone involved to be friends. It takes time. I believe it can happen if everyone is willing to do the work.

<small>[ February 27, 2005, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Tylorsstepmom ]</small>

I really needed to hear a success story. Thanks tylors step mom. I was wondering since friendship is honestly something I would like to establish w/ ow how do you think I should go about it? If you like you can email me at **edit**. I appreciate it.

I just e-mailed you!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by calismile:
<strong> Thanks NTMO. All i know for sure is tghat in the beginning we didn't exactly get along. I tried and I'm sure she did too but it just didn't work. she'd say something and I'd take it the wrong way and just go off. I even wrote her a really nasty letter just because I was hurt and wanted her to feel the pain she had help inflict. After my nasty letter we really didn't speak to each other at all.. In short we just both became digusted w/ one another. Recently she has been calling for my H about Oc and we've talked and it doesn't seem too bad. I fell like we're able to actually communicate a little now. I'm actually grateful. I know we probably wont be best friends but I kind of would like us to be able to be friends or at least find a way that we can work together and not step on each others toes. I've told my H how I feel and he actually said that she had expressed similar intrest but her and I have never discussed it. I was just wondering how others who have made it work are making it happen. Sometimes the whole ow/ oc thing gets so overwhelming that I want to end the marriage because I don't think I can deal. But I really want it to work. I want it all to work out for everyone. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cali, your honesty is inspriational. Really it is. You know what I feel. I feel that what you did was normal. We all react differently in these situations. When someone acts, then reaction happens. No matter the situation. It's human. I think maybe the time has helped. I also think and hope that it works out. Hopefully xow has enough maturtity to put her childs needs first. Also as you said you were a part of the nastyness and not saying she did not have it coming, but that always put people on the defensve. But time heals wounds and it sounds like she wants to put her child's needs first. Don't give up on your marriage. It's getting better <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Things take time.

Wow now this is a thread I can relate to. I did not meet XOW til 2 years after A. She lives in the USA and we live in Australia. H met her almost 3 yearts ago in Poland. Her brother helped me through all of this and I became close to him. We were invited to his wedding in poland last year. She also came over for it. Not only did I have to spend the night of the wedding in her company she and her boyfriend also ended up staying in the same house as my family. Then unbeleivebly we were seated at same table at wedding and also we had organised to go away with the bride and groom for a holiday she also came with her boyfriend..... I was not very happy to say the least lol. But for some very strange reason we were both very drawn to each other and really enjoyed each others company. If she and my H had not had an A she could have been one of my closests friends. Anyway to this day we still speak to each other about once a week and my 15 year old son is flying over to Florida to spend 4 weeks holiday with her. Sometimes I am sure people think I have two heads because I genuenly enjoy her company. If anything it actually made my marriage even stronger H and XOWs family were so happy and proud and see the two of us get alone. My H very rarely has any contact with her only occaionaly when I am on the phone to her and he is at home he will get on to say hello nothing is hidden and all our feelings have been totally laid out there. XOW is certainly sorry for all the pain she caused.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Iamshellshocked:
<strong> Wow now this is a thread I can relate to. I did not meet XOW til 2 years after A. She lives in the USA and we live in Australia. H met her almost 3 yearts ago in Poland. Her brother helped me through all of this and I became close to him. We were invited to his wedding in poland last year. She also came over for it. Not only did I have to spend the night of the wedding in her company she and her boyfriend also ended up staying in the same house as my family. Then unbeleivebly we were seated at same table at wedding and also we had organised to go away with the bride and groom for a holiday she also came with her boyfriend..... I was not very happy to say the least lol. But for some very strange reason we were both very drawn to each other and really enjoyed each others company. If she and my H had not had an A she could have been one of my closests friends. Anyway to this day we still speak to each other about once a week and my 15 year old son is flying over to Florida to spend 4 weeks holiday with her. Sometimes I am sure people think I have two heads because I genuenly enjoy her company. If anything it actually made my marriage even stronger H and XOWs family were so happy and proud and see the two of us get alone. My H very rarely has any contact with her only occaionaly when I am on the phone to her and he is at home he will get on to say hello nothing is hidden and all our feelings have been totally laid out there. XOW is certainly sorry for all the pain she caused. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow that is a cool story. Do you guys get to see oc much? How old is oc? So her brother helped you through it? I'm assuming you guys knew him?

Needtomoveon
Wow that is a cool story. Do you guys get to see oc much? How old is oc? So her brother helped you through it? I'm assuming you guys knew him?

Sorry I guess I confussed you here OW does not have a child with my H "thank god" I am more on the recovery board but read most of the boards and this was the first time I had seen a story about people likeing the OW and I couldnt help myself replying.
My H went to Poland to work he met XOW Brother in an internet cafe and somehow became very tangled with this family. I never met him until I went to his wedding but we commmunicated alot by email and phone. His sister at that time spoke very little english so a few times I would get him to pass a message on.... and he was also there to support my H through all the turmoil he went through. It is really strange how our families have interwined. But I too am wondering if there are many other people in my situation who became friends with XOW or do I really have 2 heads lol

Cali,
I'll never call xow my "friend" again b/c she pretended to be my friend throughout the A!!

However, we act "friend-ly" since visitation began last year. Since XOW and I haven't talked about A or *us* in years, I can't really say what's she's thinking. Like to think we try to be very civilized for OC's sake, and xow can see we care for OC.

It's truly worth speaking to your xow and laying out the truth for her: that you care about OC and want to get along for his sake. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Hopefully she'll respond in kind. If not, then it was never going to work anyway! What have you got to lose?


Iamshellshocked, that's a fascinating story! Welcome to the board! (I love Aussie) Why, though, are you sending your son to stay w/xow?! YUCK.


Best wishes to all,
J
6+yr recovery and glad I stayed

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

Wow, these stories are inspiring. I think the most imporatnt thing for being some sort of "friends" with the OW is that she is truly repentive and that she doesn't "want" your H anymore. That is not the case with many OW from what I hear on this board. I also noticed that in these situations where thw BW and OW became friends is that the H pretty much stays out of it. I think this helps the BW feel no threat.

In my situation I believe the first is true. Right now, the OW and I have no contact, although we did talk about 2 months after I found out about the A. I initiated it. She didn't want to talk to me yet, I think she was scared. But when we did talk she apologized and that was VERY important to me in being able to get past her part in it.

I hope that one day most contact will come through me and that we can get along. I don't see how we would ever be "friends", but I think I could "like" her and be able to speak to her about things without feeling anger and resentment. I think that will come with time on both our parts. I think she doesn't care who she talks to about things (me or H) I just think right now she doesn't know if I want any C with her, and right now, I'm not sure myself. I know that when the baby comes it will probably happen more often than not. My H has a way of leaving out the details of things that Mom's think is important. So I know when it comes to visitation and "what we did", "how the baby was", she's gonna get better insight from me than him :-).

Hare's to hoping for the strength, courage and insight to being able to carry that off. Wow, I have such respect for the BW who can get past it and be friendly with their FOW. That says a lot about a person and how strong we really are. I'm sorry because I don't feel the same about a FOW. It would be in her best interest to get along w/BW and she has no pain to get over that she herself didn't cause. If only all FOW could see this, they might step down in the "defensive" department and look at the bigger picture.

colddayinjuly: I hear what your saying. And your right to a point. I agree that ow has 50% blame no if's and or butts. I also think it takes all 3 (sometimes 4) adults to make it work. I also agree that woman have more of a sense of what is going on than men do with details of the baby. I think all MEN LEAVE out details. It's to all benifit that if contact works that all the adults are just that adults and PUT ALL THE KIDS interest first. bc and oc alike.

Yep, is that not what I said? I guess I just realize that the BW has the bulk of **** to put aside. Too bad more FOW can't realize this and just take a step back and realize it's not all about them !

Calismile,

BS and I get along fairly well. We’ve had our ups and downs, but with effort, we stabilize and keep going. Absent the affair, BS is someone I would have called a friend. I like her. She’s a nice lady. I understand that because of who I am and what I represent, we will never be best buds, but we are kind to each other. We both got a raw deal and made the best of it. We put aside our differences and do what was best for my son and their daughter. That’s our litmus test, “is this best for the kids?” There have been many times when I had to bite my tongue, suck it up and let her vent. I’m sure she’s done the same with me. Where was xMM in all this? He was out-gunned. Being flanked by two very strong women, he didn’t have many options if he wanted to keep his marriage AND have contact with his son. Actually, I think it was a relief for him to let us take the reins and “work it out”.

I always say, if you want it done right, let a woman do it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OB1, Dont you think that goes against the "BS is not the parent thing?" Most OW feel the BS should have no say in what, when, and where happens if it is to do w/ OC?
So my question is to you and some of the others that "get along" w/ the BS. Do you like dealing w/the BS on parenting issues or not? And do you think this is why C is working because you and the BS communicate and not just you and WS? Just wondering?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

I wish I could get along with her.

Unfortunately, that is impossible.

Sunny,

It very well may. But, being honest, I could care less (about "BS is not the parent"). I’m not trying to fill a roll or further alienate us from each other by strictly defining who or what she is. I may be billed as a STOW by some, but I KNOW that I am more than that. By the same token "she" is more than the "BS". My concern is in doing what is fair and what is right. BS has always respected me as Jonas’ mother. She has never tried to call the shots or make demands of me, with regard to my son. We talk, discuss and we learn from each other. I remain open-minded and so does she. This woman is my son’s father’s WIFE. She WILL play an integral part in my son’s life, by virtue of who she is and her connection to him. I would be stupid and negligent to disregard her or try to exclude her from my child’s life. She is his step-mom…..the operative word being M-O-M. She’s a mom, period. She has a good heart and that’s what I choose to focus on.

You remind me a lot of “my” BS, Sunny. You do what is best for baby A. I know it’s a tough road to walk, yet you do it….and you do it with grace.

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: ohbratti1 ]</small>

I would much rathe deal with a woman when it comes to children as they are more intuned. I think a man should take responsiblity of there kids, but lets face it woman are just more in tunned.

Currently we are living a very quiet life dealing with OW … But that may change in the near future… We have to go to court over child support.

She and I communicate, though very limited from her side… mostly a mirror of what I tell her about Lil Bit, and complete fabrications…
Mr Lee has a much harder time dealing with OW.
I wouldn’t call us friends. I would call us partners in raising Lil Bit. She is mostly the silent partner.. LOL

I find it funny that 2 ½ year ago, I was told I was only a Part Time Parent... and now I am FULL TIME!!
I am Mommy and OW is Momma. Lil Bit chose what she would call us. We did not force her to call either of us Mommy/Momma… She has gone through spells of calling each of us by our first names… but has reverted to calling us Mommy and Momma.
I don’t know if OW is bothered by it… but I do know OW’s Mother is frustrated by it.
Lil Bit has told me that her Gma has told her that I am Stacia.. not Mommy. But Lil Bit keeps calling me Mommy.

I have even built a website which I share pictures and stories about Lil Bit’s daily life with OW and her family. They have yet to post or share pictures and stories, but I keep the site active so they can.

I may be doing most of the communicating and trying… but at least I am trying.

Stacia

Stacia!!

(TJ in progress)

How goes it Mama Bear? Every now and again I think of you and your king size heart. The one thing that I find myself wondering about most is Lil Bit's older brother. Whatever happened with him? How is life (and xOW) treating him? I so much hope for a happy ending for that kid.

OB1

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: ohbratti1 ]</small>

Agreed: makes more sense for BS and xow to work visitation issues---if possible---so long as there's poja between married spouses.

1)decreases contact between H and xow, increasing trust within marriage.

2)moms are, generally, more detailed AND more communicative. WHO tracks family activities, phone #s, medical things, kid favorites, paperwork, holiday gifts, etc. etc.?? ME!!!

I think in order for the C to work and work smoothly for everyone. Its an everyone thing. We all have a part in raising these great children no matter where/who/why they are here. They are here because God choose for them to be here. I am trying my best to do what is right for Baby A. I think everyone here knows that and I am a firm beleiver of C working. But it takes work, hard work, to get there. You don't stop because things get difficult at times. You get over the bumps and get to what matters most. My M is my first concern and then the children. We have worked hard on repairing what both of us have broken. OW has done her best in interfering. And I think w/ most of C going though H, well we all know that most men don't get this right! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But with her actions lately its been more of a way for her to have C w/ him, than anything. So its been alittle hard to get along w/ her knowing that or feeling that. And it will be H responsibilty to hande it, right or should I call and say something? What do you think?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

I was able to be very civil w/ OW & some moments 'felt' friendly but I would never want to be 'friends' w/ OW & IRL, I don't think we would have been. Besides having sex w/ my H,(oh & being a mother <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) we have nothing in common.

OW is not the type of person I would ever normally be friends w/.

But the bottom line IS: OW did NOT want OC to have C w/ us & would stop @ nothing until her goal was achieved. And that is exactly what happened.

IF an OW or FOW really wants her child to have a father in thier life....then I think eventually, things will @ least be civil between the parties & they will all get a long for the children's sakes. If that is the REAL goal then the focus MUST be on the child & not the A or your personal feelings.

Our OW could NOT get past her own personal 'feelings'....."uh, get your own dang therapist! sheesh!" kwim?

Do I think it's possible? yes, do I think it's likely? no.


xoxox
kt

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

KT, which is truely sad as your kids have to go through what they went through. Some people are truely selfish and when they use there kids well that is as low as you can go. Who would not want there child to have a father? Really? Hopefully in time the younger ones will forget? the majority of it? I hope so for there sake.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sunnydale:
<strong> I think in order for the C to work and work smoothly for everyone. Its an everyone thing. We all have a part in raising these great children no matter where/who/why they are here. They are here because God choose for them to be here. I am trying my best to do what is right for Baby A. I think everyone here knows that and I am a firm beleiver of C working. But it takes work, hard work, to get there. You don't stop because things get difficult at times. You get over the bumps and get to what matters most. My M is my first concern and then the children. We have worked hard on repairing what both of us have broken. OW has done her best in interfering. And I think w/ most of C going though H, well we all know that most men don't get this right! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But with her actions lately its been more of a way for her to have C w/ him, than anything. So its been alittle hard to get along w/ her knowing that or feeling that. And it will be H responsibilty to hande it, right or should I call and say something? What do you think?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your a smart lady Sunny, what DO you think? What do you FEEL you should do?

Really Mary? Cash out every penny I could get on my CC / savings / IRA's everything. Pack my bags (by myself) and move to Jamaca and open a hut bar on the beach! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But can't do that now can I. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> With the year I've been having! LOL !
Its really tempting. KWIM! And w/ help from others informing her of the situations in my life, well I think it has opened the door for the games she is now playing. But who knows. I've tried to remain possitive about everything, but right now I'm not getting there. Me and H are doing much better and I think I need to work on the C w. her and handling things because lately I just hadn't wanted to. Too much "other" stuff in my life. The last conversation (by phone) we had turned into me being "short" "not nice" w/her (these are her words). So I told H the only C would be by email or in writing so no one can say I said something or did something I didn't do. KWIM. But I'm not giving up, not yet, like most of you have incouraged me by reminding me that I am different and I am better than that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
<strong> KT, which is truely sad as your kids have to go through what they went through. Some people are truely selfish and when they use there kids well that is as low as you can go. Who would not want there child to have a father? Really? Hopefully in time the younger ones will forget? the majority of it? I hope so for there sake. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Forget what? OC?----LOL--not likely....we haven't seen or heard from OC in almost 7 mos & the 4.5 yo just yesterday drew a 'family' picture w/ : me, DH, himself, ds, dd AND oc.

But I probably help 'keep the dream alive' by continuing to send mail to OC regularly & the ktbunch always has tons of drawings to include. LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Forget OW antics?---oh yah, no problem there...except for the oldest, of course. The other 2 don't have any recollection of that I believe.


sorry for the tj.

xoxoxo
kt

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sunnydale:
<strong> Really Mary? Cash out every penny I could get on my CC / savings / IRA's everything. Pack my bags (by myself) and move to Jamaca and open a hut bar on the beach! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But can't do that now can I. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> With the year I've been having! LOL !
Its really tempting. KWIM! And w/ help from others informing her of the situations in my life, well I think it has opened the door for the games she is now playing. But who knows. I've tried to remain possitive about everything, but right now I'm not getting there. Me and H are doing much better and I think I need to work on the C w. her and handling things because lately I just hadn't wanted to. Too much "other" stuff in my life. The last conversation (by phone) we had turned into me being "short" "not nice" w/her (these are her words). So I told H the only C would be by email or in writing so no one can say I said something or did something I didn't do. KWIM. But I'm not giving up, not yet, like most of you have incouraged me by reminding me that I am different and I am better than that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Yeah Jamica sounds pretty good about now!!! LOL. You are so funny! See you know what to do...you have already figured it out. YOU are one smart cookie girlfriend. I have a feeling it will come back to bite HER in the butt. does She realize how lucky she is? You my friend have had more going on than most and have kept your composure and faith up. KUDOS to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
<strong> KT, which is truely sad as your kids have to go through what they went through. Some people are truely selfish and when they use there kids well that is as low as you can go. Who would not want there child to have a father? Really? Hopefully in time the younger ones will forget? the majority of it? I hope so for there sake. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Forget what? OC?----LOL--not likely....we haven't seen or heard from OC in almost 7 mos & the 4.5 yo just yesterday drew a 'family' picture w/ : me, DH, himself, ds, dd AND oc.

But I probably help 'keep the dream alive' by continuing to send mail to OC regularly & the ktbunch always has tons of drawings to include. LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Forget OW antics?---oh yah, no problem there...except for the oldest, of course. The other 2 don't have any recollection of that I believe.


sorry for the tj.

xoxoxo
kt </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KT, I meant no offensive by it. And with my one's memory I should have known better uh? It's so sad. Do you hear back from her? If I was in that situation that would be a way to share with each other with the pictures back and forth. My kids do that for my parents. Well my parents don't draw back they write back...but you know what I mean.

none taken, of course. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I even included a SASE in the last letter so that OW wouldn't have to do ANYTHING but drop it in the mail from OC---but nope, NOTHING!!!!!!

A bit discouraging! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
But whatever! NOT MY PROBLEM!

Some days...I'm SO tired of being MATURE! kwim?

kt

Well, I sent her an email to see how Baby A was doing and some insurance stuff. We'll see if I get a response.(I wuz NICE!) I think we would be better at communicating if H stayed our of it too. I mean on issues he knows nothing about anyway. LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I figured I should stick around in the south for awhile yet b-4 I take up the dreadloc hair do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> My D said I wouldn't look good w/ that hair style anyway. Thanks !
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

I'm struck by the assumption on this thread that only if the people involved act like "adults" is meaningful relationships with the OW possible. It implies that it's childish to choose not to.

There are some very capable, mature, loving ADULTS on this forum who may NEVER want to have a relationship with an OW. They act in adult ways towards the OW, as well as their own family. They leave the other woman alone, and ask for nothing more than the same from them.

So if you ask me...the first prerequisite for having a good relationship is to "desire" one, to make a decision to creat one...it's not being "an adult". Even adults, who act like adults, and don't exhibit childish behavior may STILL decide not to have a relationship. Even adults who act childishly often DO have relationships. Presenting this argument...that it is an "adult thing" is very disrespectful I believe.

Starfish, I agree 100%

I have always found that most people, on here, think "acting like an adult" meant...."doing whatever ow/oc needed/wanted"

I consider myself quite adult. I am reliable, dependable, and a solid citizen of my community. My choosing to not have anything to do with ow/oc does not make me a child. I makes me an adult who made a choice and stuck by it.

I have found that attitude to be one of the most dangerous ones that I have read here. It forces so much of ones beliefs and wishes onto another, no matter what the cost.

While I am well known to be pro-no contact, I have never, not once, called anyone a fool for choosing contact. I have always stood by any wife and encouraged her to do what is best for HER and HER family. Yet there are those who feel that anything less then contact with the oc is wrong.

Starfish and Lynn,

I didn't really think that what we/they meant was that only childish people do NC.

I think you are right that all parties have to want it first and foremost. Like in KT's situation, it just seems like the OW wanted C w/H, not necessarily to share her child with the other family. I think that's the part about the OW you have to figure out. If she is just wanting to use her child as a pawn, well that's not very ADULT is it?? I guess that's the one I was most concerned about acting ADULT. As far as my part in acting ADULT, I guess I would just have to think that I couldn't attack the OW because of my own emotions/insecurities. That would be something I would have to work out with my H as far as how C is handled and agreed upon by both of us. So YES, many adult people choose NC and that's fine with me, but in order for C to work, people have to put their most mature foot forward and work it out like ADULTS, not children reacting to every situation like it's all about them. Cause you know when you're a child it IS all about YOU :-).

cold,

I appreciate your effort to explain what is meant here by "adult", but this is a recurring theme on this board. As Lynn mentions, it comes up again and again....this use of the phrase to describe what's wrong with the relationships between OW and BW. "Act like an adult" is thrown around like a mantra to many who decide that NC is their choice, or BW who get angry about anything.

Adults OFTEN act angry, childish, foolish etc. People who are intelligent and mature often argue, worry, fret and rage. But acting LIKE an adult doesn't mean that a relationship with specific person is more likely to happen. It depends on both people. It depends on each of their desire to be co-operative. It depends on what kind of personalities they have...is one very religious? is one very controlling? is one really manipulative?. Even if you act like an adult...you can't control how the other side will act. I know people where acting like an adult actually HAMPERS your ability to be friends with them because they prefer NOT to act like adults.

The phrase is disrespectful because when you tell people they need to act like adults....what you're REALLY saying is "stop acting like a child". Acting like an adult in this situation assures NOTHING. It is THE WILLLINGNESS by both parties that creates a relationship between them. Within that relationship....they are bound to both act childishly and in adult ways...because people are complex and this situation is complex.

So if folks here truly want to bridge this gap....it will be far better served by not continuing to throw around the "adult" argument and give them some specific things to try....IF that is their desire.

This "adults must act like adults" is not just rude...it's wrong...it assures nothing. Rather than saying "act LIKE and adult" talk about what that MEANS in THIS context...co-operation, getting to know each other, concentrating on the children...whatever REAL strategies can be shared. In fairness, some did that...but the "adult" mantra is overdone.

I know people where acting like an adult actually HAMPERS your ability to be friends with them because they prefer NOT to act like adults.

I see what you mean about the word "ADULT", I guess you said it right there. People prefer not to be cooperative, not to think of the children first, not to act with their heads vs. their hearts.

I would never think someone who chose NC was not acting like an adult. That is an adult decision made with their own adult reasoning, but I see what your saying about using the term as a generality that everyone perceives the same way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> cold,

recurring theme on this board. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are MANY recurring themes on this board. Add this particular one to another "sterotype". If it's not you, then just ignore.

ent

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If it's not you, then just ignore.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unless it is blatently anti-marriage and/or pro-affair. Then do not ignore... report.

Well Pepper....

I can't seem to recall lately anyone being "pro-affair".

It's not like there are OW's crawling out of the woodwork saying, "I slept with your H!!" Most of the OWs who post here aren't slapping anyone around with their affair.

ent

p.s. If I missed the post....let me know...love to read it!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Let's both agree to be pro marriage. And to use this forum to support marriage. How about that?

Thought I was doing that Pepper. Just "representing" another side of marriage. One who has contact AND to show it CAN work.

ent

Good for you BECAUSE MARRIAGE IS THE TOPIC

What was the topic? Ohhhhh....

MARRIAGE....

Couldn't help myself!! lol <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ent

WoW...very good point starfish. I get it completely. Wish I would of thought of that & I'm kinda surprised/diappointed in myself that I didn't pick up on that sooner.

Interesting food for thought. JUST strengthens my resolve & arguement FOR OUR specific choices.

And kinda explains what I couldn't.

Because I've honestly had those moments of civil & normal actual conversation w/ OC mom & then there were those 'other' non-civil & extremely frustrating times. I would be so perplexed by the dynamics of it all & upset that 'acting like an adult' just did NOT seem to be the 'answer'.

xoxoxo
kt

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

Great point Starfish!

LynnG, I totally disagree that "act like an adult" usually translates as do whatever the xow/oc want, on this board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Expressing sound mental health, appropriate boundaries, principles/morals, and--with limits--putting others before ourselves IS mature behavior. Whether that means contact or nc depends on the parties involved.

"...what is best for the children....."

And the merry-go-round comes full circle again!

What is best for the children.... when I hear that, the children that I put first, are my own. Just as it is for anybody. So, we are at another bulleye in this situation. What is best for MY children may not be what was best for oc.

I believe that it was best for MY children to not have to pay for their fathers sin. That the oc would not be part of our lives. It was THEIR best interests that were taken into consideration. I did not want them dragged into the whole "who is that boy at your house" scenario. To much to ask, and I chose not to disrupt my childrens lives with a revolving door family. We heard of children who grew increasingly angry at the oc, embarrassed at having to explain the situation, being the butt of jokes, for something they did not cause. Sorry, childhood is hard enough without having to suffer for your fathers sin.

So, here we are again. I feel that the children of the marriage are asked to pay a heavy price for the sins of the father when the oc is brought into the home. Based on experience and discussions with others, we made that decision. Our children deserved to have a childhood free of the drama and stigma of oc. So, was that best for the oc? Well maybe, maybe not. But based on experience of others, it was decided that we would not disrupt our childrens lives that way. Naturally, the ow was upset with this choice. She felt that the oc should "..know his family..." So. Who was wrong? Actually neither. It was parents looking out for the best interests of their children.

EVERYONE loses here. The oc does not know his bio dad. The bio kids have to know about the betrayal of the family, etc. EVERY CHILD GETS A KICK IN THE PANTS dont they? There is no nice, neat and tidy way to clean this mess up is there?

"..what is best for the children..." is not a cure all for every child in this situation. Words are cheap, easy and useless.

Personally, I know that speaking with my older daughter....she is glad that we didn't allow her to be embarrassed by having oc around. She finds it all to Springerish and would be ashamed of having our family skeltons aired in public. She is quite old enough today, to understand the whole situation.

So "...what is best for the children.." sounds awesome on paper.....but reality is what it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is best for MY children may not be what was best for oc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this. When H was going through hell last year to get visits with his son then having him live with us, then supervised visits, it took a toll on our children. They were depressed and acting out. That is when H decieded to stop having contact with Oc and put his full attention to our kids. I was upset with him at first thinking that his Oc is being let down by one parent, that H should be there no matter what. But then Xow made sure that H was never really a part of his life.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So "...what is best for the children.." sounds awesome on paper.....but reality is what it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunatly I found that out the hard way.

I would like to congrat all the people who can make contact work. But for some it just doesn't.

I agree Jenny...

When dealing with OW, we (personally) do not bend to her whims.
The things we have done, have been in Lil Bit's best interest. We are concerned about raising her the right way, not bowing to OW's will.

On the subject of "acting like an adult" I do not feel that is a bad phrase... though I agree w/star*fish....
I feel that "acting like an adult" means that we make hard choices... for C or NC.
"Acting like an adult" when dealing with OW means that you are able to keep your composure, be respectful and command respect from her as well.

Doing what is in the best interest for the marriage, for the children of the marriage and what is best for the OC is the exact order in which decisions should be made.

When you are doing what is best for the marriage, how can you not be acting maturely?
When you are protecting the children of your marriage, how can you not be acting maturely?

If the marriage and the children of the marriage are able to deal with contact, and you do everything you can to insure that the OC is protected and loved,
How can you not be acting maturely and responsibly?

Each person defines things differently... and we should not be judgemental about who is or is not 'acting like an adult.'

JMHO
Stacia

And isn't it sad all around?

This isn't some Lifetime movie, where all is resovled and everyone suddenly is free from hurt and love blooms and all is one big happy family.

This is reality, in all its ugly and crude truths.

This is not a "family". This is, by necessity, a legal arrangement, with courts and judges and all that entails. I think that as soon as one moves beyond wishing, and gets real, it will be easier to move on.....no matter what is chosen. There is nothing warm, and nuturing about this situation.

I think for BW/MM and OW (and her husband) to all get along, it has to be done legally, with everyone knowing exactly what is going on, etc. All matter of fact, signed and stamped by the law.

Then I think having a resonable relationship "for the child", would depend upon the behavior of the ow. The relationship and it's ability to succeed really soley lies on her shoulders. How she handles sharing her child with another. How she handles knowing that her child is part of another family, that she is not part of.

I don't think that would be easy for anyone to come to terms with. So if the ow is able to hand over her baby to it's father and his family, without manipulation and games things could go smoothly. It is rarely the wife who causes problems with contact...if she has agreed to it. It seems like the ow have an (understandably) hard time handing the child over to another. But who wouldn't?

Applaud Stacia!

(edited)

<small>[ March 02, 2005, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stacia_Lee:

Doing what is in the best interest for the marriage, for the children of the marriage and what is best for the OC is the exact order in which decisions should be made.

When you are doing what is best for the marriage, how can you not be acting maturely?
When you are protecting the children of your marriage, how can you not be acting maturely?

If the marriage and the children of the marriage are able to deal with contact, and you do everything you can to insure that the OC is protected and loved,
How can you not be acting maturely and responsibly?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bronze this ... it's priceless!

Brava!

Pep

I wish this was a lfetime movie LynnG. Then I'd know for sure that there is a rainbow at the end of the journey! As far as the whole adult issue is concerned. I agree that being an adult is having the ability to make the hard decisions. I also agree that in situations like ours it is at times very difficult to be adult like in our behavior because we're acting out of hurt and pain. Then again when I think in this context the same goes for ow so I guess I should get pissed off hen she wiggs out then huh? lol. I'll get it all one of these days!

Wow, this is an amazingly bizarre thread and I was so grateful to get to starfish's post that finally injected some sanity here. The implication that it is "adult" to friend a terrorist whose goal is the destruction of your marriage and your children's family is bizarre. You don't "get along" with a terrorist, you protect yourself from her. [lest you end up with your head cut off! nothing "adult" or virtuous about exposing yourself to foolish risks. ] Having any contact with an OW will only prevent the recovery of the marriage by keeping the BS and the WS perpetually triggered. No marriage can afford that.

It is, however, an "adult" responsibility to protect your marriage and your children's family from an OW. Dr Harley advocates no contact between the married couple and the OW and, ideally, no contact with the OC.

It is scary to read some of these old threads and see how far from actual Marriage Builders concepts - and simple basic sanity - this forum once veered. It disturbs me because marriages that involve an OC need to be MORE stringent about recovery concepts, not less. For them it is a matter of survival after such a compounded trauma.

You are so correct!
This forum used to frequently be invaded by OW/baby mama from another forum.
It was a constant up hill battle to stop them from hijacking the REAL purpose of this forum, which is MARRIAGE BUILDING under horrible circumstances.

Even today, there are current MB old-timers who post that "children come first", meaning the OC, of course.

I still feel protective of this forum and the hurting MBers who need actual MB advice under the circumstances of having an OC.

I miss LynnG.
She was strong and fearless, like you Mel.
She took arsenic tipped bullets and still came out fighting.
I've bookmarked several of her threads for quick future reference.

You are strong and fearless for doing the heavy lifting on this forum for so many years, Pepperband. I don't know how your blood pressure withstood it!!

Now THAT'S hilarious! and oh, so true.

Mmmmm...I couldn't agree more with your statement. Thank you for being such a staunch supporter Mel.


I remember her well. I think she was the FIRST person (or one of the first) to respond to me on my first post here. Pissed me off when she tried to "diplomatically" convince me I'd be stealing from the OC by protecting our assets .


This floors me also.



I want to also thank you for YOUR staunch support as well. I always look forward to reading your profound wisdom Pep. There aren't a lot of people in this society who can see past "a child" if they haven't been directly affected by this mess. So, I thank you...for being able to see beyond that & UNDERSTAND .


I miss her also. But we have you & Mel now. To me, that is even more important because you guys don't have a dog in this fight like Lynn did so no one can charge you with being biased because your dog could lose.

I was also just as strong & fearless...until I allowed some posters to make me doubt myself & what I KNEW was RIGHT for me, my marriage & my children. LynnG set my head STRAIGHT. The OC's well-being is NOT in my jurisdiction of responsibility & my H's ends at paying his COURT ORDERED child support.

There are folks here, in this position, who couldn't STAND her philosophy, principles & vocal approach. Heck, they even go against some of Dr. Harley's so I suppose that's not surprising huh.

4eva

Shucks.
Thanks gals.

if all the back patting is over may i ask who this more than 6 yo old thread was bumped for and why

I saw someone reading this monstrosity in who's online yesterday and read it myself. I am sure you are as sickened as I am by reading it, no? I wonder how many marriages were lost on this forum over the years because of the bizarre, anti-marriage views that were promoted here? It is heartbreaking to read this kind of anti-marriage crap on a board that is furnished by Dr Harley.

Never read this one. My life hadn't been destroyed yet back then. I am glad that you both bump up the other old threads with the "Good Advice". to help the newbies and assist the not so newbies who can't find the old threads to help the newbies.

I like "back patting" when it follows the action of inserting Harley MB concepts into the conversation......
Thank you very much.

actually it didn't sicken me. i was actually saddened

while i am in NO WAY advocating being "friends" with the op (i will never be friends with the om) i do agree with some of the discussion that you may have to be civil at times

what i read was a thread not by ow, but by 12 women trying to figure out how to make the best of this crappy situation they found themselves in

2 things saddened me

1 - that the thread was interuped by someone taking offense at the term "act like an adult". there was never any inclination or hint that the term had anything to do with people who chose nc. the meaning in the conversation was kept in the context of the thread only

2 - by the harsh line in the sand attitude by the conversation after it was bumped

as an example i will use our situation.

we cannot afford someone to act as a intermediary for pick-up's and drop-off's twice a week and the court will not order one

we also have no family members or friends that will take on the same chore for 18 years

so we are left to do the best we can of and handle those times by ourselves

also while i am 99% of the time the go between there are times when i am out of town for work and my w takes one of the other kids with her

for the best interest of our COM and the oc we have learned to be civil during these exchanges and not throw bricks at each other and there is civil comunication about certain issues, school, health, etc

from what i have read here latey is a very "our way or the highway" attitude and that also is depressing. and i am only talking about this paticular forum

with the uncountable scenerios for people getting thru this situation i only hope that they are not chased away or discouraged by those hard lines

And I view this bizarre hyper-focus on "harshness" as a distraction from sane direction on this board. This insane focus on the tone of some posters has been used Ad nauseam as a means to shut those down who were advocating true marital recovery and sane self protective measures.

That won't work with me, though. I don't care what you say about my "tone." I would point out that the lack of tone has not served you well.

I just want to remind you that is DR HARLEY'S board, pops, and he very much takes a "hard line" in the sand when it comes to marital recovery. Not using a hard line in your own case has not helped your OWN marriage. Using your situation as an example does not impress me because you and I both know that your marriage NEVER RECOVERED and that your wife and her OM are still in contact. You might use your situation as a worse case example, but you sure cannot use it as an example of success. And that is what this board is FOR. It is for MARITAL RECOVERY.

It is a crying shame to consider all the marriages that were lost here because Dr Harley's views were swept under the rug.

First off, no one ever advocated "throwing bricks" at anyone. However, it is ridiculous to assert that you are operating in the best interest of your COM when you have all but destroyed your marriage by ignoring simple basic rules put out by Dr Harley. It is in the best interest of the COM to have parents with an intact, happy, secure marriage. One does not need to pay money to have an intermediary. We have helped hundreds of couples through Plan B on the SAA and they don't pay a dime. Its not that hard to manage when someone is truly willing.

Being "civil" to a terrorist is nothing to brag about when your marriage is crumbling because the affairees are still in touch. There is nothing virtuous about being "civil" to the OM under those conditions.

with all A's there are TWO terrorists. the OP and the spouse

and quite frankly the leader is the spouse IMHO

to recover a marriage i surely hope one can learn to be civil with their spouse

and "throwing bricks" was not meant to actually throw bricks

you don't have to remind me who's board it is. i surely know after many years and your constant reminders that it is DR. Harley's.

here's a suggestion for you. why don't you suggest to the board to go back and censor all these old posts that "you" percieve to be evil and negative. then you wouldn't have to worry about what anyone else reads

Happy Memorial Day, where we Honor all those who have gone before us and laid down there lives so we can speak freely

Here is a suggestion to you, pops. And I mean this sincerely. Fix yourself before you commence to fix others. Fix your own marriage by actually USING Marriage Builders concepts, then you will be in a position to help others.

There are many others here who understand Marriage Builders and would help you in that regard. Rather than lashing out at posters who point out some of the dreadful, marriage wrecking advice that has passed for wisdom on this forum, and trying to shut others up, why not focus on something productive like fixing your own marriage? Wouldn't that be much more productive than dismissing good advice because you deem it too "harsh?"

melody let's try and stay on topic. the topic was this thread not my marriage.

i have no problem debating my marriage but start another thread and we will get to it.

of course you know that would be fruitless.

it would simply be a "mel says vs pops says" debate.

i will not be able to actually prove to you where we are and you will have no true evidence to the contrary except for your opinions

oh no, *YOU* brought your own marriage up on this thread today when you said this: "as an example i will use our situation. for the best interest of our COM and the oc we have learned to be civil during these exchanges and not throw bricks at each other and there is civil comunication about certain issues, school, health, etc"

So it is very appropriate to point out HERE that your own tactics have not worked for YOU. You have proven with your own marriage that this advice does not work.

You posted this just last September 2010:

THIS is why this old topic is relevant today.
The original poster asked a question.
The BETRAYED WIFE thinks she should get along with the OW.
"Have a better relationship with OW" ....
WHY is this even necessary?

Since this is a MB forum, FIRST AND FOREMOST our NUMBER ONE purpose is to serve the marriage, not the OM/OW/ or even the OC.

Making friendships/relationships with the OW/OM does NOT , in any conceivable way, serve the betterment of THE MARRIAGE.

If you, Pops, think otherwise, please enlighten me as to how building a better "relationship" with the OM/OW helps the marriage.

And, if a friendship with OM/OW is likely to HARM the marriage, and it is, then why should any betrayed spouse be told to pursue that "relationship".

The marriage comes first.
Always.

pops, to Pepperbands point, this thread is an example of some of the horrific, marriage wrecking advice that reigned supreme on this forum for years.

Yet instead of focusing on that aspect, your focus is on the "harshness" of some of the posters. Regardless of how "harsh" you think posters are, it does not negate the destructive advice being given.

Try not to be offended when we bring MB concepts into the mix.
And when we do it repeatedly.
Try not to be offended when we point out what is non-MB-compatable advice/opinion.
Try listening to the MB radio broadcast which was linked by Melodylane.

NO CONTACT FOR LIFE .... because MARRIAGE BUILDING is FIRST AND FOREMOST in this and all MB forums.

Pops .... why not go full throttle MB Plan?
Your M is limping along because you are not really working MB.

Your W shows a callousness and a lack of empathy/caring towards you. Your wife shows you no respect.

Why is that?

Don't you think it's past time to demand a better marriage?

Call the Harleys.
Email the radio program.
You do not need to be this unhappy.

How's that for a non harsh comment?

I'd say the two back patting recipients here certainly deserved it. God knows they have helped hundreds of couples rebuild their marriages. Not to mention to grow up and start acting like adults.

I remember reading pops justifications going after the OM for CS.

Then later on:

I remember pops later complaining about continued contact and wishing he never went after the OM for CS so there could be NC with the OM.

Many BH do this. They don't want to see the OM get off free after having their fun with their WW and leaving them with the cost and work to raise an OC. So they will spout off justifications for contact.

Yes a BH can love the OC and accept it but it's not like being able to forget that the WW had a PA for 99% of the time.

Having a OC in your home is the same as files of the PA on your hard drive and looking at them every day. For 18 years, and then some.

Having to face the OC everyday is one thing because the OC is innocent. A whole nother thing with the OM/OW.

Road, I don't think you're actually qualified to say this, considering the fact that you've never had an OC.

I can guarantee you that it's not like this at all.

The term "OC" doesn't exist in our house at all. I don't use it (other than when I come here) and neither does my H. She's simply our daughter. My H considers her his own child in every way. She isn't a constant reminder of the A or the OM. She's simply his daughter. If you could see them together, then maybe you would understand what I mean. But since you can't, I guess you'll just have to take my word for it (or not).

Looking at my daughter is NOT the same as looking at pictures of the OM everyday. She isn't the OM. She is herself, an autonomous human being. I don't know, do you walk around everyday thinking of yourself as little more than a reflection of your parents? I would be very depressed if that's how I saw myself, considering my relationship with my family.

I don't care much what anonymous people on an internet forum think about me anymore, which is why I don't come here very often these days. But it does bother me when someone who has never lived an experience proclaims to know how it feels for those who have.

The Road is allowed to render opinions about situations where he has no first hand experience.
As am I. I am allowed.

You, dearest Writer, are qualified to render your opinions based on your experience.
First hand experience is a nifty qualification, I'd say.

The cool thing is, we can always return to the Harley basic concepts when we squabble about how a marriage might recover from adultery.
It's so great to have a "home base" for our discussions.

Pep, maybe it would come across a little better if The Road stated it as an opinion. Instead of saying "The OC is a constant reminder of the OM," say instead, "For me, personally, I think the OC would be a constant reminder of the OM."

The way it was stated, it sounded sort of like a blanket statement that all BS's would find the OC to be a constant reminder of the AP, which simply isn't true. Road can believe it's true, but in our case it isn't.

Road can believe his own words.
But in reality, he just has opinions which are not to be confused with facts.

Try not to let him get to you.
I think it's super the way you've stood up and defended your marriage and the decisions you've made with your husband.
You are to be admired for facing the struggle and for not giving up.
I admire people who are willing to fight for their family.

That includes you, Writer.

Thanks Pep.

There are certain things I'm still sensitive to, but I'm working on it.

Well said, pep!

""""""""""""""however some problems have arisen these past few months in our marriage that have led to talks of separation between the 2 of us. not A stuff but just with the many stress's that we are facing right now."""""""""'

yep i said that on 9/26/10. the problems that arose were financial where we were facing losing our house and all that we had. we considered separating with fh moving in with her parents and applying to the county for asssistance for the kids.

luckily God took control and we were able to stay in the house and together

like many when faced with a seemingly unsurmountable dilema we didn't think in the most rational way.

and yes 2 1/2 years ago i said

"""""""""""'i think fh and i are doing pretty well but also see where many times we are just "limping" along also. maybe it is complacency (?) or just being tired of the constant battle that allows us to plod on that way. maybe it's spme fear of something or lack of being able to see a different future then what our past has shown us.

it is at those times when things slip back into my mind.

i do not attribute them to my w's A tho. what i attribute them to is her lack of fulfilling/meeting my biggest en's."""""""""

i am confused as to what this was brought up for. if rying to relate to another member with similar feelings is to be thrown back at us regularly. i have no reply to that

if the answer is to say that my mariage is perfect then i will never be able to say that. is anyones marriage ever perfect? if they were then there would be no cause to put precautions in place.

remember we're talking about the "perfect"

given the opportunity to relive my marriage without a single change, would I?

Unconditionaly YES

road

i agree with writer completely. oc is a term i only use here. it is never uttered in our house.

in fact if you read back in my posts you will see that i used her name (grace) instead of oc many many times.

she is my daughter and i would not change that for anything in the world

So well said, Pep

pep what do you want me to do to go "full throttle mb" ?

we already follow the priciples of poja, rad honesty, completely transparent, etc

the only thing we do not do that is recommended is have no contact with om.

for us in our situation that is not an option. and that doesn't mean that if possible in wouldn't be implamented.

what it means is that in OUR case there is no way to implament it.

soooo, while i agree that being "friends" with om/ow is not my cup of tea. i will support and encourage those who have made that choice for whatever reasons they found necessary to make there individual situation work.

and i am only talking about situations regarding this particular forum.

and i would assume that if writer is qualified to offer opinions based on her experiences then i would be afforded the same opportunity

i don't see that as spewing anti mb principles or disrespecting anyone.

Well, this isn't exactly on topic, but then again, this is a pretty old thread and the person who started it isn't here looking for help, so I don't suppose that matters too much.

Generally, I think it's very difficult to say what you would do in a particular situation until you actually find yourself in it. It's very easy to say what you think you would do, but you never really know until you get there.

A lot of people have come down hard on Pops because he didn't choose NC with the OM. It's easy to say that what he did was wrong and that you'd never do it that way - until you actually find yourself in the situation. The truth of the matter is, there isn't an "easy" way to deal with an OC situation. There is no win-win solution to this dilemma. No matter what choice is made, someone gets hurt, someone misses out on something. Because of this, there just isn't one right answer that works for everyone all of the time.

Sometimes the AP pushes for contact and is willing to take the matter to court, so NC becomes legally impossible. Sometimes, as in Pops', case the BS feels that (for whatever reason) they need to hold the OP responsible for their actions. As I understand it, Pops had concerns about his age and his health and he wasn't sure if he'd be physically able to provide for the OC. You can disagree with that decision all you want, but Pops took a very uncertain, messy situation and he did the best he could with it. When an A results in an OC, that's about all you can do.

Yes, NC is ideal, but it simply may not be possible in every situation.

Sometimes, I wonder if I did the right thing by choosing NC. Financially, the decision has ruined us. I didn't get to stay in my house. I'm living through foreclosure on our home and probable bankruptcy. We now live in a 2-bedroom apartment, our teenage son sleeps on a folding sofa, our older sons are living with their grandparents while they go to school because we have no room for them, and we barely make ends meet. Not all of our financial problems are a result of our OC, but having NC (and no child support from the OM) has certainly made things a lot worse than they otherwise would have been. It's hard to tell someone to ruin themselves financially for life just to ensure NC. I'm not sure if I'll ever know whether or not this was the right decision.

I too have been accused of not having a fully-recovered M, though I have no idea why. I have NC with the OM (and my H has NC with his OW), we have EP's in place, we practice RH & POJA and do our best to meet each other's EN's. LB's are still a problem, but we are constantly working on them. As Pops said, no my M isn't perfect, but I don't think many people have a "perfect" M. Just because my M isn't perfect however, doesn't mean that it isn't fully-Recovered from mine and my H's A's. The problems in my M now (other than some of the financial ones) have absolutely nothing to do with infidelity. To me, I have a completely-recovered, though still imperfect, M. I am a work in progress, as is my M.

I will explain why it was brought up. Because you continually use your marriage as a example when you promote non-MB methods such as those promoted on this thread. As such, I will continue to point out that you are in a NON-RECOVERED marriage that is so shaky that separation is still discussed. The fact that it involved financial issues does not negate that point, it proves my point. It is clear you haven't used this program to successfully negotiate conflict and that is the point. Couples that are in love don't discuss separation and divorce. You are not a success story, you don't even USE Marriage Builders.

It is ok if you give advice on this forum, but when you persist in giving NON-MB advice, AGAINST THE RULES OF THIS BOARD, it will be pointed out. In fact, I have all your posts on my watch list so I can watch them and report them if need be. I will never forget how you gave TheRoad hell last year when he told a newcomer that absolute no contact with the OP had to be observed in order to save the marriage. [Dr Harley's own advice!] You told him he was being unrealistic. oh no, that won't happen again.

It doesn't matter if we ALL are in that situation and are allowing contact with the OP, it does not make it RIGHT or SMART. That position cannot be defended. I don't have to be in that position to know that. It is bullcrap to say that ending contact with the OP is "not easy;" it is staying in contact that is not easy. Divorce is not easy. Being triggered by an OP is not easy. Cutting off contact with an OP PALES in comparison. So don't tell me it is not easy.It is a walk in the park compared to a resumed affair or a divorce.

And I don't have to be in that position to know that this is Marriage Builders, not "Pops How to Cut Corners and Ruin your Marriage" board. This is Dr Harley's board, in case anyone missed the sign on the door. And he HAS saved hundreds of marriages using these principles.

So yes, there is one right answer to this. It is "NO CONTACT FOR LIFE WITH THE OP." <----that is the ONE right answer. Anyone who doesn't agree wtih that is free to go start their own board and push that agenda. But this board is DR. HARLEYS. It won't be pushed here to newcomers.

It might not be "easy" to cut off all contact, yet many do it. It can be done and it should be done if one wants to save their marriages. To say this isn't important is a tragic disservice to newcomers who come here and read this board. They need help saving their marriages, not help in destroying them.