No lynching here! I support whatever you decide. I was merely reflecting on the good, the bad, and the ugly of my h's deciding to confess to me.<P>------------------<BR>Cindy

Bystander,<BR>That is nice, but all that supposes you have a marriage to validate in the first place. <P>Self-validating is one thing. Being a glutton for punishment is another.

WOW <P>what a lot of good advice, "bad" advice, indifferent advice, support, love and friendship. <P>Isn't that what we are all here for.?<P>To The Student - a bit harsh don't you think.<BR>We all have our own opinions, morals, thoughts and feelings. All we are doing is sharing them, whatever 'they' may be....<BR>I feel you should back off a little.<BR>One thing my mother used to say to me comes to mind every time I read something you have posted<P>"IF YOU HAVEN'T GOT ANYTHING NICE TO SAY, DON'T SAY IT AT ALL...."<P>I'm not saying 'don't' disagree, but there are ways to say things. You don't seem to have the 'way'.<P>anyway, Jill,<P>no advice from me. My thoughts are that one day you will tell your H. When you are ready, and when the time is right. Could be next month, next year, next decade!!! I just feel that in your heart, you will have a need to tell him. You seem so caring, so compassionate and you hate what you have done. Am I right.? Well, you will know what to do, when it is time to do it...<P>That's all, except, please don't go. (I think we're going to have to pay KC & the Sunshine Band commission money with that one!!!)<P>You have a lot to offer here, and I think a lot to share.<P>I'm thinking of you,<P>Jo

I just finished reading all of the replies. Just for the record, if my ex-H had an affair, I would have wanted to know because I would want to work on the marriage. I'm a problem solver at heart. I would not have divorced him over it. There were lots of things my H didn't want to know about me. We never had a relationship based on "total" honesty. All that said, I'd still take what I had (marriage to him without total honesty) over what I have now, which is total celibacy for life. <P>Wesse,<BR>I didn't like the guilt trip being handed her either. <P>Jill,<BR>you WILL be able to look your into your H's eyes with total love,knowing that you've made the best decision for you and your marriage!<P>bonnet,<BR>I'm sorry if I offended you. I know that everyone here is just trying to help. Here's one of my favorite sayings<P>"Now all of these voices, and all of these noises. With all their illusions of choices, they come to my door with one dozen roses. The imitation of good faith is how you stumble upon hate." <P>I happen to believe that betrayed who suggest confession have the illusion of good faith, which only barely conceals their hatred of betrayers who won't subject themselves to the hangman's noose (i.e confession). God forbid, she keep this secret and be OK with it, cause then she'd be "getting away with it", according to some. I know better. She hasn't gotten away with it, and telling her H won't teach her anything she doesn't already know. You are right, I don't have alot of tact. I'm only one lone voice in this crowd, and I guess I feel like I have to shout to be heard through the din.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 16, 2000).]

Hi! Jill,<P>Well I guess I'd better join in here. First, and this is an order , don't leave. You will provide more help to people here than we will be able to provide you. <P>Are you happy with your decision? If the answer is yes, then go with it full tilt. Has your H been surprised by your apparent change in attitude?<P>If so look him in the eye, and tell you been wrestling with yourself, got some issues settled, and you are deeply in love with him and want to improve this marriage. I'll bet that won't disappoint him.<P>It seems to me that you have been "sensitized" to the possible pitfalls of your choice so you can avoid them, because you can confide in your pastor. He should be able to help you through any personal rough spots.<P>So my advice, you've made the decision you were agonizing over, make it work and have a wonderful life. But come visit regularly.<P>God Bless You and Your H,<P>JL

All,<P>The "lynching" comments are offensive. I don't recall any comments that were so dogmatic that they merit being labeled this way. <B>Lighten up!</B>. This is a discussion forum - a platform for exchanging ideas. Hashing out these sometimes contradictory positions is, IMHO, very healthy and enlightening.<P><B>As for me, my comments came from my heart, not from a book.</B><P>Jill,<P>You still have my <B>full</B> moral support, prayers and best wishes for your marriage. I hope my enthusiasm for your initial decision to tell your H didn't put unwanted pressure on you. I wasn't recommending a course for you, merely sharing my feelings and point of view to assist you in making your own decision I hope that was the spirit in which they were taken.<P>Please don't let the firestorm drive you away. Share your ongoing recovery process with us so we can benefit from your experience and thoughtful comments. Allow us to be your sounding board and part of your support system. We're a little cranky sometimes, but overall not too bad. <p>[This message has been edited by 2sad4words (edited March 16, 2000).]

2sad4words and anyone else,<BR>Sorry if I offended you. I'm pretty sure the lynching analogy started with me. I don't want to discount that your concern was genuine and that your advice was given from the heart. Jill picked up on my analogy too. <P>The reason why I get so fired up is because I believe Jill has already paid the price for what she did. She has learned the lesson for Christ's sake and now just wants to get on with her life. <P>Here is a quote from "Forgive and Forget":<BR>What happens when you finally do forgive yourself? What you are in your present scene is not tied down to what you did in an earlier scene...You release yourself today from yesterday's scenario. You walk into tomorrow, guilt gone.<BR>Again, the word that fits the case best is "irrelevance". Look back into your past, admit the ugly facts, and declare that they are irrelevant to your present. Irrelevant and immaterial! Your very own past has no bearing on your case. Or how you feel about it. <BR>Such release does not come easy. The part of yourself who did the wrong walks with you wherever you go. A corner of your memory winks at you and says, "Nice try old chap, but we both know the scoundrel you really are, don't we?" It takes a miracle of love to get rid of the unforgiving inquisitor lurking in the shadows of your heart.<P>My words now....The miracle of love comes from yourself and your God, not anyone else.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 16, 2000).]

I think it's really cool how we all have expressed opinions on this issue from a to z with a bit of vinegar thrown in to accent our passion and zeal! <P>Yet after all this discussion all seem to respect the good faith effort Jill has put forth in reaching her decision. We hae managed to vigorously express our opinions and still come together in support.<BR>Everybody does seem to come together after good debate to support Jill in her decision whether or not it is the decision each of us might've made. <P>It just goes to show how remarkable all the posters on this board really are! If only all our spouses will come to fully appreciate the new and improved us!

All I have to say is this:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000937.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000937.html</A> <P>Less than 4 weeks ago.<P>And I take issue with and umbrage to the intimation that the vast majority of people who have been betrayed are sitting here waiting for a betrayer to be punished. Not all of us are D99. And in fact, that is the ONLY person I know who has been so venomous toward any betrayer who is trying to stay in a marriage.<P>I also take issue with the statement that the majority of marriages with infidelity in which no children are involved fail. I don't see that statistic cited ANYWHERE in Harley literature or in any of the other books I've read. It is MORE DIFFICULT for marriages with no children to survive any marital crisis, yes, but "most don't survive"?<P>I would bet money (if I had any) that Jill's husband already suspects that she is harboring some terrible secret - may even have a good idea what. Betrayed are not stupid - we just WANT to believe that our spouses wouldn't hurt us like that.<P>That said, Jill's decision IS Jill's decision. It is her life and marriage. I disagree, but that's just my opinion.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>

Jill<P> My wife betrayed me and told me when it was starting. I believe she should have done that. If my wife was in your position I could live without ever knowing about it. I am now on antidepressents and even today out of the clear blue sky I had visions of the two of them. I believe for YEARS I am going to have to deal with these waves of sadness. SO IT IS MY OPINION THAT YOUR HUSBAND CAN LIVE WITHOUT KNOWING BUT CAN YOU????? <P> I think you're doing the right thing. If you can do this and not let it eat you from the inside out I think what you will find is that you will have periods of sadness just being on the other side. I'm getting better, the visions are fewer and fewer they have less and less of an impact so just as I believe I'll get over it I think you will to. PLEASE, DO NOT GO THOUGH THIS ALONE, TALK TO YOUR PASTOR, BRING YOUR PROBLEMS HERE. I have found that talking about then here helps to clear my head. <P> REMEMBER ONE THING -- YOU WANT A HAPPY MARRIAGE AND SO DOES YOUR HUSBAND. YOU BOTH WANT TO BE DEEPLY CONNECTED AND IN LOVE AGAIN. STOP BEATING YOURSELF UP ABOUT THE PASS, LEARN FROM IT AND MOVE ON, just promise me that as you find the tricks to putting this behind you you'll let know for my wife.<P>Good Luck and I'll pray for you<P>Joe<BR>

Dear Jill,<P>Please don't leave this site! It is vital that people on both sides of the tragedy of adultery feel welcome here.<P>I read your original post with interest, but since NSR replied with exactly the same advice that I would have given, I chose not to post. But, upon seeing where this has gone, I'd like to offer my thoughts to you.<P>My wife sought the advice of two Christian counselors, one during the affair, the other afterwards. Both knew me well. Both advised her to never tell me.<P>I believe their advice, at the time they gave it, was correct. <P>Two months ago, more than three years after the affair ended, she told me. She did the right thing, and despite the inexpressable pain and grief this has caused me, I am glad that she did.<P>How can both be true?<P>Read my post: "A story of hope..."<P>If my wife had told me years ago, I honestly believe I would have divorced her. At that time, our relationship had been devastated by the changes caused by the deceptions of the affair. We had discussed separation, and that was without my knowing anything!<P>During these last three years, my wife has allowed God to reshape her into a different person. I love and respect the woman she is today. I was willing to fight through the pain to save my marriage to her. I wouldn't have felt that way before.<P>In God's perfect time, she told me. She truly thought she never would, but God clearly showed her: TELL HIM NOW! He rewarded her obedience with a marriage that is much better than it could have been if she kept her secret to the grave.<P>Will God tell you to confess? I don't know. Clearly, He has not done so yet. So my advice is this: dedicate yourself toward becoming the best helpmate you can be. Put him first, as you should have done earlier. Become the woman God wants you to be, learning fully from the sins of the past.<P>You'll never realize the potential for your marriage if you never tell him. But if you tell him at the wrong time, you could lose your husband. Only God knows when the right time is. Trust Him, and do your part.<P>BrokenButNotCrushed

Brokenbutnotcrushed,<P>Thank you for a balanced, insightful post. You have successfully shown how your wife wanted your marriage and made her decision based on that. I admire the fact that you were able to come to the conclusion that she is not a "liar" or wanting to live a lie, as so many seem to imply when a betrayer makes a decision not to confess. A decision not to tell is not the path of least resistence for the truly remorseful.

BBNC,<P>Are there really no regrets that she waited 3 years to tell you? Maybe you sell yourself short when you say that, that you are now dedicated to the marriage only because of the changes she accomplished on her own.<P>I say this because I always believed and said that if he ever had an affair, that would be the end, period. But it wasn't. When I was faced with the horrible truth, I fought for my marriage. And he hadn't changed, we had talked of separation, he was in love with OW.<P>I thought there was just a little regret in your story that you have 6 years to look back on and try to reconstruct. I sometimes wondered if he should have told me, but I am now sooooo glad, our marriage is stronger than ever.<P>------------------<BR>Cindy

Jill:<P>As an old timer, I would encourage you to continue counseling with Steve Harley, and work on learning the MB skill set. And I would encourage you to be honest---one of the hallmarks of the Harley methodology is his AMAZING success rates, and while most of his methods are complete common sense (don't hurt your spouse, meet their needs), the area where he differs is in the area of honesty. While your pastor has done marriage counseling, you might ask him hard questions such as "how effective was he?"<P>My guess is that he's giving you this advice because he's found it nearly impossible to manage saving marriages hit by infidelity. Because he lacks the skills to do so. His advice is common-place, and these "common-place" methods also have some severe drawbacks.<P>If you're capable of compartmentalizing this completely, of "rebuilding" your marriage with (or without) your husband's help, and there's no chance of this affair ever being revealed---then there's a chance of success.<P>But what's more likely to happen is that the reason you had an affair will reoccur in the next 5-10 years. And you'll remember the pain of the last one, for a while---but then get frustrated with the marriage once again. And set yourself up for a repeat of the behavior. And because your husband doesn't know (unless you're BOTH doing counseling), he's without the means to help the marriage. He's lacking critical information.<P>This scenario happens all the time. Repeat of past behavior. You're swearing that it won't to YOU---but the pain is still fresh. You will have to work very dilligently to ensure that it doesn't happen again, and if your husband's not working with you in this effort to rebuild your marriage, it can get very lonely. And hard. Possible---yes. But it's much better if you're working together, knowing the pitfalls of what will happen if you fail, and experiencing the joys together when you succeed.<P>To everyone here whining about "support" and "lynching"---I really think you need to reexamine what this board is about. It is primarily a Marriagebuilders board. General "support" in the way of "do what you feel, honey" is not something that's particularly useful. You can find people to support you having an affair, for example. I don't see people "supporting" D99 in his anger here---I don't see people supporting OP's and betrayers continuing their affairs here. You shouldn't expect everyone to pat you on the back and say "you're making the right decision for YOU..." if this goes against the principles you believe in.<P>Jill, I would encourage you to continue talking to Steve (again). He may assess that you indeed are capable of burying the past and learing the skills necessary to make your marriage thrive---and he may advise you not to tell. I doubt it---but he's the professional with the track record of success. I'd listen to him.

Ask Harley what his success rate is with female betrayers who don't have children. He says that men leave women over infidelity more often than the other way around. He also says that divorces occur much more frequently among those who don't have children. <P>His overall success rate may be good, but I'm guessing that part of it is because he is already dealing with people who are committed to trying to save the marriage, and he provides them with some effective tools. That is wonderful! More power to him! Your situation is different, however.<P>I mean, you have to be determined and educated enough to even be on the internet looking for advice, right? The horse has come to the water, so to speak, and he manages to get them to drink. Big deal! I just don't think that his success is all that miraculous. I know that people point out the examples of childless couples who have succeeded here, and it does happen. It is just rare. It is rare for them to be here in the first place, and more rare for their marriages to survive.<P>The reason why Harley won't recommend you keep silent is because he believes that a marriage without "total" honesty is not a marriage worth having. That is easy to say coming from someone who is still married and who hasn't had to face the dating scene in 30 years or so (how long has he been married?). So, I disagree with him there too. Only you can decide what kind of marriage you want. I'd take a marriage without total honesty over the way things are for me now. It is like rich people, or those with good jobs at least saying "money isn't everything". Sure, money ain't everything if you HAVE it. If you don't have money, and go to bed hungry everynight and can barely afford a roof over your head, money is a whole h*ll of alot. <P>Should you end up divorced, these same people will say "you did the right thing", "it is for the best", blah, blah. But all the comforting words in the world won't bring your H back, or keep you warm at night, or a hug when you are sad. I think you've suffered enough, Jill. I don't think you are living a lie, either. You are determined on improving your marriage. Yes, you will have to be diligent to make sure you don't cheat again, but everyone must do that. You know as well as I that your H can't control you, so it is not really a valid argument that your H can help "keep" you from cheating. Only you can do that.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 17, 2000).]

Student:<P>For someone working on her Ph.D. in engineering, that 2nd paragraph of yours is complete BS, and I'm pretty sure that you know it. Harley actually works with a considerable number of marriages in which the situation is a disaster (affairs), and only one is in counseling.<P>These methods worked in my case. But not because I was "educated" or that my marriage was better off because I knew how to use the net. They work because the methodology is better than traditional marriage counseling. Period. It's not a skewed population of people using these methods.<P>You are right, that having children will help save a marriage, in statistical terms. But his success rate amoung childless couples is still much above the "norm".<P>And your marriage didn't fail because of honesty, or his methods. It failed mainly due to your selfish, naracisstic, immature husband. Your having an affair didn't help, but (IMO) you could have NEVER had a good marriage to your husband, without his willingness to grow. And you wouldn't have survived 10 more years of your current marriage waiting for him to get a clue.<p>[This message has been edited by K (edited March 17, 2000).]

Jill,<P>Happy St. Patrick's Day to you.<P> An Irish Proverb<BR> <BR>What shall I do to love? Believe.<BR>What shall I do to believe? Love.<P><BR>This has been an interesting discussion here. I want to tell you that I come down on the side of honesty here. While I don't agree with K on everything, I believe his note on this topic is right on. <P>What troubled me the most about my wife's affair was the dishonesty. I believe you need to tell at some point. If not, it will always be there as a barrier between you and your husband. You need to talk to your husband and counselors about why you had the affair and take measures to ensure that you don't do it again. Otherwise, how can you truly say it won't happen again?<P>There has also been some discussion about Harley or non-Harley principles. Here's another source I recommend.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.dearpeggy.com/quest127.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.dearpeggy.com/quest127.html</A> <P>Peggy is also a believer in honesty and has personal experience as a betrayed spouse. Peggy Vaughn and her husband have written books on Infidelity which I also recommend.<P>I wish you the best.

K,<BR>I love you to death. You are absolutely one of my favorite people here. There are very few people here whose opinion I respect as much as yours. Honest!<P>I really don't know where Harley gets his numbers from. I do believe you that his success is probably higher than the norm. In general, I think his methods work alot of the time, just not *all* of the time, and people who come here need to know that and benefit from considering all options.<P>Your opinion about my marriage is worth noting. You've been with me here since day one, so you are very, very qualified to make that judgement. When I cheated on my H, I can't say I had put alot of thought into it. However, I did put some thought into confession, and I see now that my assumptions going into it were incorrect. Maybe you are right that my marriage would not have lasted another 10 years. But because I cheated (1), and confessed (2), I will never know, will I?<P>I took a look at my transcripts a couple of weeks ago. The 6 months following my affair, before confession, I had straight A's. After confession, I got mostly B's and my performance was mostly downhill after that. Only recently has it begun to improve, but it hasn't even approached even my post-affair/pre-confession motivation. Hmmm.<P>As bad as the guilt felt at the time, apparently it must not have been tooo unbearable. Knowing what I know now, I'd take my marriage without total honesty and the "deepest" intimacy over what my life is now. When I confessed, I think my expectations of marriage were pretty unrealistic. I know better now.

<BR>TS,<P>We've certainly all heard the claim that betrayed men are more likely to divorce than betrayed women, but is it true? I haven't done an exhaustive literature search, I admit, but nobody seems to cite clinching evidence of this claim. And the same goes for childless couples not surviving infidelity - where's the data?<P>As for your experience after confessing, it was particularly horrible. You can either ascribe the causality to your ex-husband (like K and I do), or you can ascribe it to a poor decision on your part: Specifically, to have sought an honest marriage by confessing. Perhaps its less threatening to you to decide that what happened was *your* fault for confessing, because you can better control your outcomes in the future by deciding that you'd never again confess (and by proxy, advising others in MB to not confess).<P>But the existence of other marriages than yours, marriages in which total honesty reigns, belies the fallacy of this approach. Why devalue honesty, when it makes for the best marriage? Anyhow, I've sensed for some time a tone of despair in your posts, and the whole discussion of your man-less, sex-less future life screams out a desire for companionship (and yes, sex). Your "holding men and women to a high standard of conduct" seems to me, really, to translate into an unattainable standard of conduct, to defend yourself from ever falling in love. I'm very sad for you. I know you're still healing from what happened to you. But hardening yourself will only leave you bitter, and it doesn't have to turn out that way.<P>Bystander

I had to sleep on this before I added my two cents worth to this obvious controversy. <BR>What I have to say is this: We are responsible before God to obey God's word, not man's word.....no matter who that man is or what his position of authority is. It does not take a degree in marital counseling for a pastor to teach and uphold God's word. All it takes is for that pastor to know God's word and to do what he is called to do--tell the truth and teach what God's word has to say not what he thinks is right or wrong. MB principles work because they uphold God's word--there's nothing here that violates what God has to say about marriage. Unfortunately, I've found far too many pastors and Christian counselors who are teaching practices that do. Maybe they have good intentions, as I'm sure Jill's pastor does....but good intentions do not make a marriage work.<BR>Jill, you need to find out what God wants you to do--not what your pastor wants you to do. And the way to find that out is to ask Him first. Don't make the mistake I did by assuming that your pastor knows what is best in this situation. I also trusted my pastor's better judgement because my pastor (or shall I say--former pastor) and his wife were my husband and I's best friends. His better judgement led to the worst nightmare I've ever experienced in my entire life. I learned from hard experience that God should have the first say and the final say...He knows what is best for both you and your husband.<P>CJ <P>------------------<BR>Psalm 42