Here's some more...<P>No longer pays attention to the kids or spouse,<P>Loses interest in caring for the house and doesn't maintain it anymore,<P>Withdraws from parents because too ashamed to face them,<P>Says that they don't care about anything anymore,<P>Says that they don't believe in marriage anymore and that humans weren't created to be monogamous creatures,<P>Says that they weren't happy in the marriage and that they tried to fix it all by themselves in their head and it didn't work...Geez...wish my H would have told me that he was working on our marriage in his head...It would have been nice to be included in trying to fix our marriage. Stupid thing, though...he didn't come to me with our marital problems, but he sure didn't have a problem finding and confiding in a OW with OUR marital problems!

For me the signs were:<BR>1. Very critical of me and constantly angry.<BR>2. Restless.<BR>3. Spent a LOT of time at the computer on-line.<BR>4. Suddenly VERY private about personal stuff, like palm pilot, date book, etc.<BR>5. Separate phone card from the one with our regular phone company.<BR>6. Changed all passwords on e-mail account, or in my case, added a password to e-mail account (AOL).<BR>7. Distance from me and kids.<BR>8. Started sleeping on the couch.<BR>9. Non-existent sexlife...or when we did...wanted to do very unusual or (to me) demeaning things.<BR>10. Spent a lot of time alone. <BR>11. Locked the bedroom door while on telephone.<BR>12. Requested I get a separate checking account.<BR>13. Started paying bills late.<BR>14. Quit cutting the grass, trimming hedges, etc.<BR>15. Quit helping out around the house. <BR>16. Started new diet & exercise regimen.<BR>17. Started buying new clothes and taking a new interest in physical appearance.<BR>18. Disappeared for hours and unreachable. Refused to return pages. Left for entire weekends...said he needed space and time alone (yeah right).<P>I could go on and on...these for me were the obvious signs.<P><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

To Beth28, Everything that you wrote applies to my situation to a tee! I read allthe others and they didn't apply but when I got to your post, I could have written it myself. The only very unique aspect to my H's EA (maybe P/A I don't really know..) is that she was my friend and she and her man were frequent overnight guests in our home for the past four years! I am not even sure if she is as attracted to my H as he is to her. He is still referring to her as his friend even though I know better and he got so angry the other day saying "Do you honestly think our marriage would be ok if I just stopped being in contact with her?" I said of course not but the fact that he not only insists on being "friends" for life, he is remvoing himself more and more from our life.. Sorry, I know I have changed the subject a bit here but I needeed to vent!

Mine was obviously wierd:<P>I'd say, "Where were you?" and "Who were you with?" and he'd say, <P>"Oh honey, you LOVE ME. Were you worried? That's so CUTE!"<P>And then, of course, I'd find out he was with OW.<P>Cute my [censored]!

Some of these have probably already been said but for me it was:<P>1) not showing interest in my desire to go away for weekend together.<P>2) checking email account whenever I wasn't at home.<P>3) leaving for work extra early.<P>4) being EXTREMELY forgetful!!!! And saying it must be a pregnancy related thing because I'm pregnant.<P>5) being evasive when asked questions about his day, such as,what did you do forlunch today?<P>6) Not wanting me to come to his office.<P>7) Not wanting to meet me for lunch when I asked, saying he'd rather go out to dinner.<P>8) not wanting to kiss me while making love...decreased sex drive...lack of affection...pulling away when I tried to get affectionate....<P>I think that about covers it.<BR>

<BR>Kat,<P>The amnesia about good times in a marriage happens in deteriorating marriages, regardless of infidelity. This unsettling (but fascinating) phenomenon is discussed by John Gottman in his latest book. The short version is that people will rewrite their entire marital history to justify their conduct. <P>Bystander

My list -<BR>1.Pager w/ voice mail<BR>2.Leave house immediately after receiving a page - which he would deny. Guess I'm crazy!<BR>3.Errands which should have taken 10-15 mins.<BR>lasting much longer.<BR>4.Meetings which routinely (for yrs)ended at one time, now end "late"<BR>5.Hiding calendar,briefcase,wallet, etc.<BR>6.Cell phone which we don't need<BR>7.Evenings out with the "guys".Using the ate breakfast excuse to explain late (or early hours depending how you look at it), hours.<BR>8.critical, Critical, Critical<BR>9.Not happy, haven't been happy.Wish we'd never married.<BR>10.Dining at places you've never been together.<BR>11.Changes passcodes, passwords<BR>12.So many lies, trips over them<BR>13.Encouraging you to go out with your friends alone<BR>14.Distancing himself from daughter<BR>15.Change of clothes in car.<BR>16.Cologne in car<BR>17.Defensive,defensive, defensive.<BR>18.Takes off from work without telling you.<BR>19.Won't return pages.<BR>20.Says he's going one place, if you check, he either didn't go, or left way earlier.<BR>21.Picks fights so he has excuse to leave house.<BR>22.Says really cruel, hateful things<BR>23.NO affection, no sex, no nothing!<BR>24.Hates family oriented activities or holidays.<BR>25.Doesn't include you in activities you previously enjoyed together.<BR>26.Hangs up phone if you unexpectedly come home or in room.<BR>27.Needs space, time, etc...<BR>28.Going out with the "guys", but sure not dressing like it.<BR>29.New things he says he bought.This from the man who doesn't shop anywhere but hardware store.<BR>30.Now has "friends" you've never met nor spoke with on the phone.<BR>31.Deletes caller id frequently.<BR>32.Clears history on computer every time.<BR>33.Doesn't wear ring any more when going out.<BR>Probably could go on and go, because the fact of the matter is....regardless of how well wayward spouses "think" they are hiding it...their behavior changes. The above was occuring BEFORE I knew who OW was, I just knew she existed.Where there's smoke, there's fire.<P>

1) Begins wearing pager while everyone is home.<BR>2) Friends use the page number instead of calling directly.<BR>3) Beeper goes off, runs out of the house without telling H that there is bread in the oven, calls and says she will be late, and still doesn't tell me that there is bread in the oven.<BR>4) Doesn't sign emails "love -W" just "W"<BR>5) Moves you into a different bedroom<BR>6) Won't answer the question why we can never be intimate ever again.<BR>7) comes home from first day with om weeping, saying, "I'm still a good person"<BR>8) very critical, to point of indistinguishable that it wasn't my fault.<BR>9) Won't let you see her naked again.<BR>10) Wants a new car with a sunroof, and previously, open sunroof hurt her hair, open windows were bad for allergies (OM has sunroof, as does all of H cars)<BR>11) Begins being needed for male friends whose marriages are in trouble.<BR>12) doesn't want to say who was with her on her night out.<BR>13) goes to smokey bars when never before went with H, it hurt her eyes and had to wash clothes. Now carries nips in pocket book after never having more than 1/2 glass of wine with H in 10 years.<BR>14) comes home to tell me that WE won darts.<BR>15) Hides new issues of Cosmopolitan under bed, never read before.<BR>16) Says that Harley's "His Needs, Her Needs" is sexist. One should never look good just for H.<BR>17) "You don't have muscles and never asked me to go roller blading before."<BR>18) "What 2 day sporting events that you haven't been to in 3 years do you want to go to this month?"<BR>19) Coworker at volunteer job never knew I was married (because you didn't wear your rings, and you didn't want anyone to know you were, and i don't hang out with these people at 2am in the morning)<BR>20) One night 10 years ago and one day 8 years ago were the worst days of my life, do I have to bring it up again?<BR>21) Why do think I am having an affair?<BR>22) Because I don't trust us!<BR>23) I wrote those nice anniversary cards 5 years ago because I was just writing it.<BR>24) Kids, "OM was selected for the Olympic TRIALS back 20 years ago" H, "I QUALIFIED for the World Championships!"<BR>25) W to H, "I want you to meet new friend!"<BR>W disappears, and then comes back, stands int he corner, beet red.<BR>26) "Its all your fault."<BR>27) Well I can't change what I said to you, but I will only apologize if forced to.<BR>28) You can't go with me and the kids because you make me uncomfortable.<BR>29) Volunteer workers are real, they put their butts on the line for others. executives are not, you are not real.<BR>30) Now that you bring up the OM, I was going to talk to you about that, I have been very unhappy for a long, long time, for the last 10 years.<BR>31) We've done it your way for 10 years, now its my turn.<BR>32) subscription renewals are for maximum amount of years, usually 2 to 3.<BR>33) H's table setting for dinner is not set if late from work.<BR>34) Mumbled under breath, "I've always thought that I would be married to a bigger man."<BR>35) doesn't want picture taken with H any more, even by kids.<BR>36) When you hug me, do you have to hold it so long? (2 seconds)<BR>37) carries new hair scent in car<BR>38) can't drive to s or d soccer game in same car, always have to leave early for something.<P>And the finale:<P>39) W's newest best friend just found a soulmate by breaking up a marriage of one of soulmate's closest's friends.<P><BR>WHAT AM I STUPID? <BR><p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited May 30, 2000).]

They say, "what do you mean by sex?"<P>Honest to God she said that!<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

* Falsely acuses you of snooping or riffeling through their things.<P>* Thinks you're listening at the door when they're on the phone.<P>* At times goes way overboard in helping or complimenting (guilt), then other times is indifferent and could care less.<P>* Remembers the entire marriage as a farce or never getting along. No good times.<P>* Blames, blames, blames and blames.<P>* Says things like "you know I've always been a loaner".<P>* Can't remember from one day to the next things they've said or done.<P>* Never seems to know what day of the week it is and loses time.<P>* Pats you on the head like his pet dog instead of kissing you like he use to.<P>* Does not want you to touch him.<P>* Won't look you in the eyes when answering innocent questions.<P>* All of a sudden gets a pager.<P>* All of a sudden will not let you use his cell phone or password protects his cell.<BR>

The not wanting to go to church anymore or be around church friends anymore was my biggest clue that something was wrong.<P>Also denying my feelings. OW was visiting from Italy and needed a place to stay. He asked if she could stay with us. I said sure. Next thing you know, he was taking off the week to chauffeur her around. I told him that concerned me and I was uncomforatable about it. I got the same response, "You don't trust me." I told him "I don't trust situations." I was right. That weekend after the EA came the PA. Followed by two weeks of guilt on his part and the "I want a divorce" when I finally got into his e-mail and discovered that he loved her and confronted him.<P>Ugh. I hate this.

When your W brings home a "Men are from Mars"tape for you to listen to,and she says a"friend" at work gave it to her.<BR> --Murph

* Tells you "I don't think we should sign another year's lease"<P>* Starts talking like the teenage boy next door.<P>* Comes home wearing shirts you've never seen before.<P>* Accuses you of throwing that shirt away, then finds out you sent it to the cleaners.<P>* Doesn't want you to answer his new private "office" phone.<P>* Wants to buy his own underwear, whereas always wanted you to buy it before.<P>* Insists on doing his own laundry.<P>* Won't let you in the bathroom when he's taking a shower.<P>* Asks you for your copy of the key to his car.<P>* Auto Ins Co. calls and says husband wants to put you on separate policies.<P>* Ppl you havent seen in a while (his friends) start asking if you're still together. HUH?<P>* Ppl you haven't seen in a while ask if you're okay. HUH?<P>* Out of no where your H acts jealous over you.<P>* Encourages you to go on a out of town trip and before hated you being away.<P>* Calls you "Honey" and your normal pet name for 15 yrs has been Babe.<P>* You find long blonde hair on his car seats. H has dark short hair.<P>* The passenger door to his car is unlocked w/window rolled down slightly, and when he left solo an hour ago it wasn't.

*keeps asking you what you want out of life.<P>*Talks about how disappointed he is in life, his career, you, family income, the kids, etc.<P>*Keeps asking if you really love him, and looks skeptical when you say you do.<P>*Is angry all the time.

Bumping this thread up again.
It is worth the read.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Orchid,

You sure have deep pockets.What else do you have hiding in there? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong> Orchid,

You sure have deep pockets.What else do you have hiding in there? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

O </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My pockets can't be too deep, I'm under-tall <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I was packing and found this thread printed out in my kitchen drawer along with Trueheart's letter to the WS. I treasured those posts way back when.

I also see the same questions come up over and over again. Seems to go in cycles of sorts. When I started on MB, MB was flooded by hundreds of BS. It was not unusual to see about 18 - 20 new ones each day.

How the 'oldies' (aka: wiser MBers) put up with the likes of people like me is still amazing. I was fighting tooth and nail to save my M when all I was doing was spinning in circles and creating many ailments for myself. Oh yea and I thought about ending it a few times too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> When I look back, I see what I once thought was a very self confident girl turned into a raging mom/wife who when cornered w/d anything to save her family. All legal and moral of course but very much on the edge of it all. I stayed within the legal limits and that frustrated the A to nooo end. I learned (after I got 2x4'd by the LB fairie and few of her friends here @ MB), that all along they were right. I needed to heal me first. That's why I am such an advocate of plan A and B. Short A and strong B. That's what worked for me. It took a while for this stubborn mind to let it all sink in. Many will say it never looked that way but I have a way of making it look all ok on the outside but shivering on the inside. During those times MB became my personal coach, my lifesaver, my friend.

Did I have an EA with MB? The WS thought so and sometimes the H still thinks so. In reality, MB took over and gave me the comfort, emotional security and hope to survive. It was an ER of sorts. Why? Because we have ER (emotional relationships) with everyone we come into contact with. I know my H gets a bit jealous when I have casual convos with the water softerner repair guy, another MBer, a seller on the craig's list (even though the guy was gay - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), anyone ...... I know he wants to be able to do the same. He can and does but he still gets jealous when I do it. So I have to be careful. Funny, I don't get jealous (unless the ER turns into an EA), then I get <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> .

Ooops rambling on a bit too much. Just thought this thread may help some newer ones like it helped me. It was also a venting tool which probably also saved the WS' life. I really don't give a hoot about the WS, just my H but at one time they were joint at the hip/head and heart...... progressive MB surgery helped. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

So back to your question, do I have deep pockets? Maybe just baggy ones. LOL!!! I know there are many more older threads that would lend great value in helping some newer ones out of their frustrated mode. Just can't remember where I put them all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

How about this? The Fogman speaketh:

"I'll deny it till the day I die...so will she"

"It never happened, this is all in your head"

"You're like obsessed with her."

"It's not about her, it's about our relationship. She has nothing to do with it"

"You always said you would leave if I ever cheated on you"

"Our M was over for at least a year"

"I am NOT a liar!"

"I told you I would be home when I GOT there"

"Somebody must have planted it there" (referring to OW's bra that I found in my bedroom)

"You've hurt me and I'm still not over it yet"

"I'm not ready to come home yet."

"I don't see any of the changes you've talked about"

"You forced me to leave"

"I just don't feel comfortable being at home"

"You weren't there for me when I needed it"

"I don't want a D because of the kids"

An hour later... "Don't stay with me just because of the kids!"

OMG, I could go on and on and on and on...

^ Bump^
This definitely would have helped confirm I wasn't goingnuts when I first suspected an A.
Thanks to Orchid for pointing it out to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was fighting tooth and nail to save my M when all I was doing was spinning in circles and creating many ailments for myself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've heard this one a few times! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Orchid, no wonder you and I get along so well...you were just like me a few years back! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />