I am not in any shape tonight to jump in on SNL WS post, I promise i will tommorow!<P>but a question I Was asked by my wife no less along with many more alone the way is, If things were that bad, why not leave before you had an Affair?<P>the question seems almost rediculous to me now, because you see its the same reason i had the A.<P>I WAS TOO WEAK A MAN<P>Too weak to stand up for myself in my own marriage<BR>Too weak to scream loudly enough that i was dying inside<BR>too weak to stand in integity with my commitments<BR>too weak to realize that those conversations with women were me seeking to meet an unmet need.<BR>too weak to realize that the woman i befriended and who befriended me was becoming more than a friend.<P>too weak to recognize when weak became immorale <P>too weak to leave, <P>no base of power or strength to confront or face my wife.<P>you see as i had weakness my wife had strength,<P>she had control and power, the ability to say it was so. thats how it is and you will like it.<P>I was dead inside.<P>then at a time when i was my lowest, someone offered me love and support and strength, friendship, all the things my wife was supposed to offer me, and i was too weak emotionally and spiritually to resist. and when i fed on this milk, i felt what being alive was like, and i fed on that energy that life giving force until i got strong, yea i got strong again and when i was strong enough, my mind and spirit awoke, and i knew how wrong what i had done was.<P>it was in that moment in that strength i knew it had to end. and i set about changing my life. <P>i was still to weak to just walk up to my wife and talk about life, hell i couldnt take money out to have a cup of coffee without getting scolded like an 8 yr old, and weve cleared 6 figures for 6-7 yrs. <P>so to answer the question at least for me, why not leave?<P>I was to weak a man, to weak emotionally, to weak spiritually, and quite frankly to weak physically, weak because i was dead inside.<P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz<p>[This message has been edited by chazbutler (edited August 23, 2001).]

Hi Chaz,<BR>You know, I've re-read your post a couple of times, and it's funny, because I had many of those same issues before I found out about SO's A. And there isn't much doubt in my mind, that given more time, less exhaustion, and someone fairly interesting around, I would probably had an A too. I wasn't very happy at all. The thing is, I don't know if it's necessarly weakness as much as it was just total ignorance of how to reach out to a partner that tips the scale for an affair. I seriously think that if his A hadn't happened, I wouldn't have gotten the "kick-start" to do something to save my relationship and learn how to be a partner.<P>Just a musing I have.<BR>T<P>

I don't know if your wife has said it Chaz...<P>But, I've said it to my H...I am soooo sorry...<P>I said the words to him...I recognized right away what had led to the condition of our marriage...but I didn't know "why."<P>I have since read "The Mastery of Love" which is teaching me the why...<P>Please know that just as you 'fell' into the A...your wife 'fell' into her pattern...it wasn't planned either...it was a human reaction to the way we are trained and domesticated...<P>I hope that she is reading books and is making the effort for you...I am trying for my H...he just doesn't trust it...nor do I think he is as far along as you in his 'quest' for finding himself...he still has a certain amount of denial...<P>On the other hand, so do I...I still feel a certain amount of 'justification' as he let me be the responsible one and chaffed when I wanted him to be responsible...but now is angry because I had all the control...It wasn't ever something that I consciously wanted...I was just used to doing...getting things done...he was attracted to that...just like I was attracted to his 'free-spirit.'<P>About five years ago...I could have been the one in the A...I kept threatening to leave...he kept saying we stay and work it out...that is what marriage is about...but I was super unhappy...He did not(and to a certain extent, still does not) take financial responsibility, he did not take responsibility for household stuff...not even the lawn stuff...I had to ASK him to do everything...Yeah, I was his 'mom.' AND I HATED IT! But, I got to a certain point, read some stuff and 'MADE' myself understand that what I was frustrated with were the same things that attracted me to him in the first place...so I shook my desire to leave off and I withdrew...<P>Why no A? Because I had such a low self-esteem about my own attractiveness that I WOULD HAVE NEVER felt that anyone would want a 30 something, plump, had three caesareans body...I FELT STUCK!<P>So, when I found out about my H's A...I felt betrayal like I had never felt before...this man...the ONLY man I had ever been with...did what he promised OVER AND OVER AND OVER, every year of our marriage, that HE COULD NEVER DO...<P>why did he say he did it? because I didn't listen to him...I didn't agree with his opinions...I had all the control...he didn't want to be around me anymore...he never wanted to be married in the first place...he never wanted children...he was dead inside...I didn't admire him...I didn't respect him...<P>GUESS WHAT? I could have said the same things about him...He didn't listen to me...He didn't respect my opinions...He passively/aggressively 'had control'...I escaped to my room to read romances at night...I was tired of handling all the children stuff on my own...I wondered why I had married...I didn't feel admired as a wife...as a mother...I felt used...taken for granted...dead inside...<P>My H escaped into an A...I escaped into myself and books...IMPASSE...<P>I think there is a point in here somewhere...that each of us has a certain amount of weakness...that no one person bears the responsibility for the condition of the marriage or relationship...<P>Unfortunately you can't take this stuff we learn and distill it into a liquid and put it into an IV into the veins of those that need it...<P>Everyone has to come to their growth process in their own way and in their own time...there's the rub...<P><BR>Peace,<BR>Cali<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

twyla, your keeping long hours it seems,<P>I really wish it was something other than being completely beaten into the ground.<P>my wife is an increadibly strong woman, too strong for a woman. she began almost from the moment we met to challenge me on all kind of things, she would challenge me on how to care for my car, if i was lifting heavy enough, things she couldnt even comprehend, and i responded with strength and resolve, then as time went along it became clear to me that my wife wanted control, she like being in charge, so in my ignorance i began to allow her to be right no matter what, no matter the challenge it goes her way, and with each challenge she got stronger. and i gave a little more of myself away.<P>fast forward 10 years she is still challenging me, how i drive, what underware i should wear, how i breath air, i am a shell of a man, unable to even speak loudly enough for the girl at taco bell to hear me. <P>she had my balls, there was no man left, she ruled supreme, my relative had stopped visiting beause they said it was painful for them to see how she treated me, and in my ingnorance i still just thought i was doing what she wanted me to do. still promoting the giving up of myself to please her.<P>we had sex less than 3 times a year, even went 2 years with no sex at all. there was no affection, that might lead to sex you see. i had no control of our finances, like ive said, i really wanst allowed to buy a cup of coffee in the morning. <P>i was powerless, dead inside. i had no will no ability to make decision no base from which to have influence on my wife. she had all of me.<P>

cali, twyla, cont.<P>I was the incovienence that came with the paycheck, she didnt want to be married to me, she wanted the money the house and the security that came from that. I didnt matter. or so i thought.<P>on d-day i had for the first time in probably our entire marriage the freedom to speak freely, what could i possibly say then that could be worse than what i had done? <P>and i let i fly i had been doing plan A for the last 6 months with my wife, trying desperatly to see if there was a marriage to even try and save, i was still very convinced that there wasnt, that she would sieze this moment to simply dismiss me.<P>she didnt, and i was shocked, how could someone be so cruel to a human being and love them? i asked her, she asked me. well... no good answers.<P>ive come to believe that we both actually had the most honorable intentions in our marriage, i trying to do no wrong and give her what she wanted, and her in her way challenging me to be a man over and over again. you see i am at least for now choosing to believe that when she was challenging me, she was actually not looking to take my strengh, she wanted desperately for me to stand up and be a man, and i simply gave in. me thinking thats what she wanted her not knowing how to end the cycle.<P>challenge after challenge, she worked hard at it, enough for me to have grown to hate her for it. had i only seen that they were each in of themselves and opportunity for me to gain strength not lose it. a chance for her to respect my manhood, my decisions. my strength.<BR> <BR>how could we have gone so wrong with such good intentions.<P>i dont know i just dont have those answers. <P>the difficulty now is how after being so subservient for so long do i change the image that is etched into her mind of me as weak and Pathetic (a word she used often with stinging effectiveness).<P>how do i possibly appear as strong and masculine to her now?<P>how do i find a way to generate desire for me as a man, husband and lover.<P>all that and an immore act by a weak man...<P>i am frustrated by the progress, i am the only one in counseling, the only one studying, and the only one here practicing my plan a applying the hnhn concepts.<P>and i feel very alone, still very very little affection and SF sigh, well there wont be another issue of weakness in my life, the question is, will there be a marriage.<P>she has to step to the plate eventually, as she isnt makeing deposits, and her account is begining to run low.

I sit here thinking Thank God that I NEVER actually said to my H that he was weak or pathetic...God, that anyone should ever say those words to someone...I am so sorry...<P>But, it is false pride...because I alluded to it...I told my friends and co-workers of my frustrations...I let everyone know how unhappy I was when he DIDN'T DO SOMETHING...<P>I might never have said the actual words...but what I said and how I said it left no doubt what I felt...and like your wife it was a desperate attempt to get him to 'step up to the plate...'<P>Instead of just enjoying each other's gifts...enjoying each other's company...loving each other...<P>You walk down that aisle and boom...expectations set in...and my H is wired to believe that he can NEVER meet anyone's expectations...that he is doomed to fail...so he does...<P>I am wired to take charge...take over...take care...SURVIVE...so I do...<P>The key is radical honesty...when I have been COMPLETELY honest with my H...and he has been COMPLETELY honest with me...when he has REVEALED to me and I to him...there is such a POWERFUL connection...<P>I used to think that I was completely ME with him and HE with me...but that is not true...both of us held back an essential part of ourselves...a teeny-tiny piece that holds the key to our relationship...because we were afraid of being hurt...<P>But the end result is that we hurt ourselves by holding back...keeping our fears and anxieties from each other...NOT being COMPETELY ourselves...NOT saying EVERYTHING necessary...<P>Well, they say that hindsight is 20/20...<P>Peace,<BR>Cali

<B>I sit here thinking Thank God that I NEVER actually said to my H that he was weak or pathetic...God, that anyone should ever say those words to someone...I am so sorry...<P>I might never have said the actual words...but what I said and how I said it left no doubt what I felt...and like your wife it was a desperate attempt to get him to 'step up to the plate...'</B><P>Yes, I treated my H this same way. Lord, Chaz, I'm so sorry to hear about how you were treated. As I began reading your thread, I thought I had treated my H the exact same way you were describing. BUT, I never used those words, I never said "pathetic, weak, " etc. I guess he must have THOUGHT them, tho. I was convinced it was MY strength that he needed, that he leaned on. Apparently, I was TOO strong. As you said, I "had his balls," and he didn't have any. I wouldn't let him. <P><B>Instead of just enjoying each other's gifts...enjoying each other's company...loving each other...<BR>I am wired to take charge...take over...take care...SURVIVE<BR></B><P>Cali, EXACTLY!! I'm right where you are. With a H who believes, truly believes who he is is a man who CANNOT do good, who cannot succeed, or be happy. He's NOT ALLOWED to, his family always put him down. I wasn't as bad as they, but who did he run to? HIS FAMILY! And now brings OW around to them. Yuck.<P>I guess I wanted to ask a question this morning: Chaz, if it was this bad in your M, WHY did you come back to try to "fix" it? Not desparaging you at all, just wondering, if you felt this weak, and A gave you strength, but you saw that your M was where the feelings of weakness came from, what would make you go back to that? Were there promises made from your W that things would be different? Did you just feel that YOU could make the difference? It doesn't sound like she has done anything to help you... <P>I will pray she wakes up and begins to treat you with the respect you deserve. WE ALL here appreciate you, and your strengths, and your wisdom gained at so high a price.<P>Thank you.<BR>Lupo<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chazbutler:<BR><B><BR>but a question I Was asked by my wife no less along with many more alone the way is, If things were that bad, why not leave before you had an Affair?<P>the question seems almost rediculous to me now, because you see its the same reason i had the A.<P>I WAS TOO WEAK A MAN<P><BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>sheesh, this is a refreshing change around here! A real man who doesn't speak in forked tongue! No convoluted, tortured Clintonesque excuses, no attempts to indict everyone else [well, everyone "could" do it if the circumstances were right, therefore, everyone is as guilty as me] Just..........simple HONESTY! <P>Thanks for giving us the REAL story from the other side, chaz, I really admire and respect your strength and honesty and your ability to step up to the plate. It's very helpful to me to hear the true story from the other side.

Hi Chaz,<P>You know I always find your posts thought provoking. I guess A's can start with all sorts of personalities. <P>Yet what I am respecting in you is the ability to see your true self and even more be able to discuss it. Are you a weak man? No, you are a man, yes a man who has been confused by his wife. Oh, I am not defending either of you at this point. <P>You see, I am similar to your wife. Now before all of you throw me in the corner and turn on those torches, please hear me out. I am married to a nice and good man who is as you say weak. His self esteem is very low and he has internal issues to deal with that happened way before we even met. He openly talked about this when we first were married, he said he wanted a wife that could truly be his helper, mate and companion. Somewhere along the way, prioriites got mixed up. There was so much to help, I concentrated on what I thought was the most important priority, helping him and neglected being his companion. The mate piece is legal for the most part and so now even that is in question. The point is that I too tried very hard to build my H's self-esteem. Used all the normal methods employed by many over the years. But my nice man is also a stubborn man. Instead of us working together, he found it safer for himself to fight with me. I did not know how to deal with this and kept trying to help. This lead to a vicious cycle that has led up to our time now. Except now, I am learning to be aware of this. <P>So I too have been accused of being too controlling. Yet that is the last thing I want to do. I want to be the helper that gives my H the strength and support he needs to survive and make a good name for himself. Yes, I want to be his companion. I regret the choice he made to seek companionship elsewhere. It angers me right now and I feel that I at this time can no longer be that companion or helper. <P>Is that how your wife is feeling? Is she withdrawing into herself to now protect herself from you? Because that is how I feel. <P>There needs to be an understanding on both sides. Chaz, you have made great strides to improve your marriage but all your good efforts will not be as valuable unless both of you have the same values. <P>Here is a women's point of view, if I may. ... take your wife by the hand, hold both her hands in yours and gently tell her how much you appreciate her need to want everything to be perfect but since you both are not perfect, it just creates an endless cycle of unfulfilled obligations and dampens the love between the both of you. Tell her you want her you need to have the both of you love each other for your personal strengths and weaknesses together and be there for each other. Be each others, helper, mate and companion. Then all the little incidentals in life will take their normal place. If the towel is not hung up just so, it will be ok, if the clothes don't always make it into the hamper, its ok. Now mind you this does not give you carte blanche on being messy or irritiating, neither does it give her perfectionist squatters rights either. So see if she will compromise. <P>Let her read this post, I will be sharing this one with my H, why? Because I do love him. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

wow, what a thread.... I just want to say this hits a little close to home for me too.... thanks for starting it, chaz. I always learn so much from hearing your thoughts.<P>I'll be back later after I read and think.

chaz, I am sorry! I can only say that your W probably never meant to hurt you. I know it may sound lame but this is complex things we're dealing with here.<P>I can relate to what you all been saying here... <P>Cali, <P><B>"Instead of just enjoying each other's gifts...enjoying each other's company...loving each other...<BR>I am wired to take charge...take over...take care...SURVIVE"</B><P><BR>This is me. I am so in control, always, but now... <P>I learned from this.<P>-she-<P>

The more I read here, the more I begin to understand myself and it's REALLY scary! Yesterday I posted about how I thought that in my marriage, my H had been looking for a mother figure, as his mother was AWFUL to her kids. I also posted that my H has figured out recently that he is his father all over again. When I began reading this post, it occurred to me that the mothering in our marriage has possibly come from my need to CONTROL everything. You see, when I was growing up, I saw how my own mother had NO CONTROL in our house. She was very weak and deferred ALWAYS to my father for any decisions. I was constantly telling my H over the years what was best for him. I paid all the bills, to the point that when my H moved out, he confided in me that he would check his bills every night to remember when they had to be paid. I can't believe what I've done to him over the years. And then, after all of that, I expected him to admire me, to honor me, to want to be affectionate with me. When my H left, he said it was because my anger had gotten out of control. I claimed to have gotten so angry because my H never honored, respected, or appreciated me. Well which kid appreciates his mom telling him what to do and how to do it all the time? My anger actually turned to verbal abuse of my H and my kids. When he left, I took a good look at that, and have been in counseling to change that about me. I think I'm making great progress (in that area). My point is that reading what others have felt/gone through in their marriages, I am finding out so many more ugly things about what I did to my H during our marriage. I guess I should say thanks, but it's really scary finding out that I have so much further to go! I really with my H would take enough of an interest in our marriage to come here and read...

Chaz,<P>I am the BS. One of my biggest guestions is why he did not have enough respect for me to leave. He told how wonderful she was and that she made him feel so alive. He told me two days after dday he did not love me and thought he never did. I have asked him and have not got straight answer. I feel like such a fool some times. He found his soulmate. He found true love. Is he just using me? If he found love that great why stay with me? The funny thing is she was cheating on him and her husband but that is beside the point. I just do not understand. He did not understand that i was dying inside also. Maybe you can inlighten me on this situation. I see how they are soulmates. Both them are lying, cheating, back stabbing a**wholes. Yes, I did call him patheic. I did not mean it in a bad way. I cried when or baby was born. The thought having a baby and him not in love with me is was so inbearable. <P>

chaz,<BR>I am also considering showing this to my H. I'm not sure though. Every effort I make right now appears like more attempts at "controlling" to him.<P>Have you told her what you've told us here (everything) on this thread? Can you show this to her? I know you've told her how you feel, much like my H has probably "told" me on d-day and ever since... but you obviously have a desire to make your marriage work. you have a desire to give your wife another chance... but your marriage won't work unless she makes some changes. You can't carry it. And you can't live like that.<P>I would give ANYTHING for my H to give me another chance. I'm here learning and growing. I have always read and learned about relationship and marriage principles. If I hadn't, we wouldn't have lasted 7 years, and I would be more like your wife. But because of the efforts I made, I don't think I was a terrible wife. I never knew the seriousness of how he felt. I know now. And I want to chance to be the wife he needs and wants.<P>Our relationship was very much like Cali desribes. But I thought it worked for both of us. He was irresponsible and childish - but that is what attracted me to him - and vice versa - my responsibility and logic.... I thought it worked. He seemed happy. We talked about it lots of times, and we thought we completed each other. He provided all the romance and fun... I took care of the details and business. Now, a taste of something different for him, and he things everything was wrong.<P>Show your w you need her. You appreciate all she's done for you. She's done a lot for you over the years, right? Appreciate those things. My H says HE did all the work - there's plenty that I gave - I wish he would appreciate me for that. I'm trying to show him I appreciate him and his giving. (I thought I did this anyway - but I'm learning how to do it better ) Show her this thread and explain your desires and concerns. <P>You asked how to appear strong and masculine, and generate desire.... I wonder if appreciating her for her strength and logic will help. Also, I admire and respect my H the most when he stands up for what he believes in - God, country, family, morals. And when he builds me up and tells me my good qualities. When he is responsble and follows through with what he says he's going to do - small or big. <P>"Did you drop off that bill today? No." I lose respect and desire for him.<P>"I took care of those bills today." ooohhhhh,,,,, admiration and desire flows throughout my body and soul... <P>Just a couple of thoughts.... this is some serious stuff here, and I sure don't have the answers... I wish I did.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lupolady:<BR><B>I guess I wanted to ask a question this morning: Chaz, if it was this bad in your M, WHY did you come back to try to "fix" it?</B><P>Because it was the Right thing to do. and, i have 2 wonderful children. no matter what happened to the marriage, i was going to be a bigger and better part of thier lives.<P><B>Not desparaging you at all, just wondering, if you felt this weak, and A gave you strength, but you saw that your M was where the feelings of weakness came from, what would make you go back to that? </B><P>dispite my poor decisions i do have character, and when i was strong enough, i did see the wrong in what i was doing. and i felt compelled to do it right.<P><B>Were there promises made from your W that things would be different?</B><P>that she didnt immediatly seek to divorce me was a kind of acknowledgement of her sense of responsibility. <P>and there was a brief time after d-day where i was in a position to basically speak my truth, and be stong, you see there was no risk, i had already done the worst thing i could have ever done. and in that time she came to understand the damage caused by the behaivior, she didnt promise to change it, that was up to me. <P><B>Did you just feel that YOU could make the difference? It doesn't sound like she has done anything to help you... </B><P>it has been a very difficult year, i almost left her on xmas eve, her inaction and unwillingness to "Try" up to that point had pushed me to the very brink of calling the marriage over.<P>while she has not initiated any changes, she has been while combative at times working with the changes i have been making. <P>you see as i gain power and control in our relationship, it required that she relinquish it. for it to go from 100% her in control, to even a 50-50 split is a huge movement in terms of being in control. she used language like "how come i am the one who has to give up control?" the answer was obvious but uncomfortable, because she was the only one who had it. <P>so while it is not accurate to say that she has done nothing, it is still pretty accurate to say that she doesnt seek to meet my needs with any commitment or purpose.<P><B>I will pray she wakes up and begins to treat you with the respect you deserve. WE ALL here appreciate you, and your strengths, and your wisdom gained at so high a price.</B><P>thank you.<P><B>Thank you.<BR>Lupo</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orchid:<BR><B>You know I always find your posts thought provoking. I guess A's can start with all sorts of personalities. </B><P>Now theres a point many WS's try to make and get completely slammed for. thanks for the acknowledgement.<P><B>Yet what I am respecting in you is the ability to see your true self and even more be able to discuss it. Are you a weak man? No, you are a man, yes a man who has been confused by his wife. Oh, I am not defending either of you at this point.</B><P>I dont think its a matter of defending either of us, its all about how to break the cycle, i choose to believe that her intention all along were good, if i believed that she intentionally capitalized on the situation id have left long ago. <P>my biggest concern is that i know that it is unhealthy for me emotionally to be alone, to feel unloved, and i am married to a woman who didnt have a man worth admiring for a very long time, is it possible to having seen me in such a subservient way for so long to restore desire for me as her lover and spouse.<P><B>Instead of us working together, he found it safer for himself to fight with me. I did not know how to deal with this and kept trying to help. This lead to a vicious cycle that has led up to our time now. Except now, I am learning to be aware of this.</B><P>I can only imagine how difficult it is to not be in control when a. you need to be, and b. you have to give it up to someone who is inexperianced at having it. <P>believe me i appreciate how difficult that has to be, but i can assure you unless you allow it, it simply wont happen.<P><B>I regret the choice he made to seek companionship elsewhere. It angers me right now and I feel that I at this time can no longer be that companion or helper.</B><P>I am very sorry that is how you feel, I understand why you feel that way, and i wouldnt blame my wife for having those feeling. It would bring me great sorrow as i am very much in love with her, and am now in a much better postition to be a good husband then ever before.<P><B>Is that how your wife is feeling? Is she withdrawing into herself to now protect herself from you? Because that is how I feel. </B><P>I cant honestly answer your question, discussion about our relationship to her is a big LB. I speculate that she is being thrust into a shared control environment whether she likes it or not, and that she is trying very hard to re-invent herself so as to not lose who she is. because its no longer possible to be who she was. <P>it remains to be seen if as she goes through this transition whether she can find it a part of her to be a loving and caring wife, she is so solitare and distant, only brief glimpses of the softness and feminine woman i thought i had married.<P><B>There needs to be an understanding on both sides. Chaz, you have made great strides to improve your marriage but all your good efforts will not be as valuable unless both of you have the same values. </B><P>i am willing to (and have) expend tremendous amounts of energy to make this work, i do however have to protect my mental health, the contiuous rejection and feelings of being alone will eventually take their toll, and when i feel myself sinking uncontrollably i will likely seek a radical change in my life.<P><B>Here is a women's point of view, if I may. ... take your wife by the hand, hold both her hands in yours and gently tell her how much you appreciate her need to want everything to be perfect but since you both are not perfect, it just creates an endless cycle of unfulfilled obligations and dampens the love between the both of you. Tell her you want her you need to have the both of you love each other for your personal strengths and weaknesses together and be there for each other. Be each others, helper, mate and companion. Then all the little incidentals in life will take their normal place. If the towel is not hung up just so, it will be ok, if the clothes don't always make it into the hamper, its ok. Now mind you this does not give you carte blanche on being messy or irritiating, neither does it give her perfectionist squatters rights either. So see if she will compromise. </B><P>i have this message looped on a tape recorder and play it at night so it is delivered subliminally each night. <P>seriosuly this is the message, I am trying so very hard to compassionatly deliver, its been a very difficult road with little reward on the marriage front. it has been susbstantially benificial personally however.<P><B>Let her read this post, I will be sharing this one with my H, why? Because I do love him. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.</B><P>I hope he finds your willingness to evaluate your end in all of this as valuable as i would. <P>thanks for your comments L.<P>chaz<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by she:<BR><B>chaz, I am sorry! I can only say that your W probably never meant to hurt you. </B><P>I am choosing to believe that too.<P><B>This is me. I am so in control, always, but now... <P>I learned from this.</B><P>that is comforting, its a difficult thing to recount, and makes me question whether thing will ever be good between us.<P>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Myownme:<BR><B>The more I read here, the more I begin to understand myself and it's REALLY scary!</B><P>Welcome to the club! <P><B>Yesterday I posted about how I thought that in my marriage, my H had been looking for a mother figure, I can't believe what I've done to him over the years. And then, after all of that, I expected him to admire me, to honor me, to want to be affectionate with me.</B><P>too, for? thats where i have to choose to forgive and assume that her actions were not intentional, that she was doing what she believed was neccessary or required, as distructive as it was for me, i believe, i have to believe it was not intentionally distructive but out of love.<P><B>When he left, I took a good look at that, and have been in counseling to change that about me. I think I'm making great progress (in that area). My point is that reading what others have felt/gone through in their marriages, I am finding out so many more ugly things about what I did to my H during our marriage. I guess I should say thanks, but it's really scary finding out that I have so much further to go!</B><P>i am sorry it took him leaving to come to that realization.<P><B>I really with my H would take enough of an interest in our marriage to come here and read...</B><P>you your H me my W, what to do?<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mon:<BR><B>Chaz,<P>I am the BS. One of my biggest guestions is why he did not have enough respect for me to leave.</B><P>thats actually an obvious answer,<P>he had no respect for himself. without that he has no basis for respect for you. <P>did you respect him? did you show him in your everyday life what it looked like to have respect for another? <P>i ask because in my life that simply didnt exist. you may have, yet you asked that question in this thread so i wonder.<P><B>He told how wonderful she was and that she made him feel so alive. He told me two days after dday he did not love me and thought he never did.</B><P>this is typical from what i have seen, if you buy what harley say's, you must understand that your love bank account with him is deep in the red. and now it sounds as if his with you is falling into the same category.<P><B> I have asked him and have not got straight answer. I feel like such a fool some times. He found his soulmate. He found true love.</B><P>again? you were that too right? what changed, how did life change after the wedding?<P><B>Is he just using me? </B><P>its more likely he is clinging desperately to the hope that you want to be his soulmate and are willing to do what it takes for that to be. <P><B>If he found love that great why stay with me?</B> <P>because he wants you to be his love? your better!<P><B>The funny thing is she was cheating on him and her husband but that is beside the point. I just do not understand.</B><P>LB ALERT!!! keep that to yourself!!!<P><B>He did not understand that i was dying inside also.</B><P>Why not? didnt you tell him? its never as easy as people want to make it out is it?<P><B>Maybe you can inlighten me on this situation. I see how they are soulmates. Both them are lying, cheating, back stabbing a**wholes.</B><P>uhhh. well ok, i see that so why do you want him?<P><B> Yes, I did call him patheic. I did not mean it in a bad way.</B><P>please oh please tell me how to use such a awful word in a sentance that puts a positive spin on it. give me an example... your kidding right? <P><B>I cried when or baby was born. The thought having a baby and him not in love with me is was so inbearable.</B><P>I can only imagine how awful that is. I have tremendous sympathy for you, i dont exactly know what your choosing to do, work on the marriage? or not. your message here just seems like an expression of pain and anger. no real direction. whats the plan?<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Chaz,<P>Thank you very much. I always had great respect for him. Even when he did stupid things, I always tried to incourange him. I never tried to controll him. Maybe, I was not controlling enough. I should have put my foot down when he started hanging with guy and was doing some real heavy drinking. I called him patheic because I was so tired of the situation. Apparently, they both would whine to each other about their spouses and other things. They both sounded patheic to me. I so sick and tired. So, I told to pack his **** and get. I told him to go live with that women so they could share their patheic lives together. That is how I saw their relationship. I do not know why maybe it the things he said. I know one thing that I was so hurt and had enough. I just could not deal with it any more. I do not if he knows about her and this other man. I think if he knew that I knew about this. He would say. You called her husband to tell him about us but you could not tell me. <P>Thank you<BR>